Freakonomics Radio Episode 651: "The Ultimate Dance Partner"
Date: October 31, 2025
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Overview
In this lively episode, Stephen J. Dubner explores the fascinating world of horses and their economic, historical, and cultural role, particularly in the U.S. This is the first in a series on "Equinomics"—the hidden markets and enduring partnerships between humans and horses. With help from economists, historians, breeders, and riders, Dubner traces how horses evolved from essential technology to luxury companions, delving into the opaque economics of sport horse trading and his own personal foray into the saddle.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The U.S. Horse Population and Sectors
[07:02]
- ~7 million horses in the U.S.
- Recreation (personal use, lessons, trail rides): ~3 million
- Traditional jobs (farming, ranching, policing): ~0.5 million
- Racing: ~1 million
- Competition/Sport horses (e.g., Olympic equestrian events, rodeo): ~1+ million
- Typical sale prices:
- Work/recreation horses: a few hundred to a few thousand dollars
- Competition/racehorses: much higher, often six or even seven figures
2. Buying, Selling, and Valuing Sport Horses
Guest: Constance Hunter, Chief Economist & Equestrian
[08:05], [12:52]
- Affluent buyers (“billionaire class”) are dramatically impacting the amateur sport market, pushing prices for top sport horses into the millions.
- Most purchases are opaque private transactions, similar to private equity deals.
- Quote:
"Most humans don’t volunteer information. You have to draw things out."
– Constance Hunter [08:51] - Buying a horse is often more about matchmaking than commodity trading—each horse’s value is highly subjective.
3. The Enduring Human–Horse Partnership
[13:49], [14:43]
- Horses live up to 30 years, often becoming long-term companions or “dance partners.”
- Quote:
"They need us for absolutely nothing and yet they’re willing to partner with us."
– Constance Hunter [13:49]
4. Horses in History: Technology and Empire
Guest: Peter Frankopan, Professor of Global History, Oxford
[14:52], [16:09]
- Horses transformed empires—vital for speed, communication, and military power.
- Quote:
"It’s quite hard to understand human historical civilizations...without placing the horse somewhere within that human story."
– Peter Frankopan [15:07] - Horses were markers of status (Tang Dynasty China, ancient Egypt) and central to military campaigns and state-building globally.
- In North America, reintroduced by Europeans post-1492, horses also enabled Native groups to expand and resist colonial encroachment.
5. The Infrastructure and Peak of Horse Power in America
Guest: Ann N. Greene, Historian & Author
[20:23], [20:45]
- Peak U.S. horse population: ~30 million (circa 1910-1915)
- Integral to cities (500 horses per square mile in 1900s Philadelphia!): delivery, streetcars, factory work
- “Living machines”—horses as urban infrastructure and energy source
- The transition to cars and electric streetcars relieved cities from “public health problems” caused by horse manure and congestion
- Fun Fact: Teamsters Union logo = horse (from “teaming”—hauling)
6. Today’s Sport Horse Market: Opacity and Opportunity
Guest: Mark Paul, Economist & Horse Trader
[25:57], [36:58], [37:12]
- The sport horse market lacks Zillow-style transparency; prices and sales info are rarely public.
- Quote:
"There’s no Zillow for horses. And I think that this is a huge problem."
– Mark Paul [06:00], [36:58] - Sport horse industry (U.S.):
- Estimated value: $75 billion to GDP, ~6.7 million horses
- Dressage-specific: ~15,000 U.S. riders, 175,000 worldwide
- Mark and his partner boost transparency by listing full prices on their website—a rarity in the industry.
7. Types and Economics of Modern Horses
[27:13], [29:19], [30:23]
- Quarter Horses: most common in U.S.; small, reliable, family-friendly (“the golden retrievers of horses”)
- Thoroughbreds: built for speed; heart of American racing (especially Kentucky)
- Warmbloods: hybrids prized for sport (e.g., dressage, jumping); athletic, increasingly refined
“They’ve been transformed into world-class athletes through modern horse breeding.” — Mark Paul [31:29]
8. The Business of Importing and Selling Sport Horses
[33:45], [35:01], [37:40], [45:31]
- Mark and Elizabeth’s business (AVO Dressage):
- Started to afford top horses by buying, training, selling imports (mostly from Europe)
- Three business segments by age/training:
- Young, up-and-coming (4-5 yrs): ~$60K sale price
- Medium training: $100–150K
- International quality: $200K–700K+
- 2024: Sold 33 horses, revenues ~$3 million
- Industry has high variable costs: “Horses are kind of like owning a finicky sports car, maybe quite a bit worse...maybe owning a finicky boat is a better analogy.” — Mark Paul [48:22]
9. Inside the Saddle: Training, Talent, and the Equestrian Lifestyle
Guest: Elizabeth Bortuzzo, Professional Rider & Trainer
[50:46], [54:55], [55:15], [56:07]
- European-born, now trains/rides/competes in U.S.; rides up to 25 horses a day.
- Memorable moment: Elizabeth recounts rehabilitating a dangerous horse with a broken neck, now performing at international levels.
- Quote:
“...It requires a lot of stupidity or, others call it bravery. Depends how you see it.”
– Elizabeth Bortuzzo [54:55]
10. Riding Reveal: Dubner Takes the Reins
[63:13], [64:44], [65:21]
- Dubner tries riding for the first time, coached by Elizabeth and Mark.
- Experiences the partnership, physicality, and view from atop a world-class dressage horse.
- Quote:
“What’s the word I’m looking for—unified. I feel like the horse knows what to do with me on top of him. And because he does, it makes me feel as if I know what to do on top of him, even when I don’t.”
– Stephen Dubner [65:21]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Constance Hunter, on horse value:
"Whereas if I look at my horse Jasper...who’s perfect for me as this amateur, Henrik von Eckermann would have no use for Jasper, right?" [12:52]
-
Ann N. Greene, on urban horse life:
“If you walk down a street in the 1880s, it would have been mobbed with horses. One of my favorite statistics is that in about 1900 there were 500 horses per square mile in Philadelphia…” [20:45]
-
Peter Frankopan, on horses in history:
“To have horses gives you high status, and above all that’s to do with the fact you’ve got an effective military.” [17:23]
-
Mark Paul, on business transparency:
“The most we can do to keep horses on the affordable side of unaffordable, the better.” [45:48]
-
Elizabeth Bortuzzo, on professional riding:
“I ride more horses in a day than most people would ride in a full month…I ride 25 horses a day on average.” [56:14]
Episode Highlights & Timestamps
- Intro & Setting the Scene at Chester Racecourse: [00:00 - 07:00]
- Reflections on horses as old vs. new technology.
- Horse Market Breakdown & Economics: [07:02 - 12:52]
- Sectors, values, the role of private sales, and matchmaking.
- Historical Roles of Horses: [14:52 - 24:44]
- Peter Frankopan and Ann N. Greene on empire, technology, and urban horsepower.
- Modern Horse Trading & Business Transparency: [25:53 - 39:06]
- Mark Paul explains the business model, lack of a “Zillow for horses.”
- Horse Types and Modern Breeding: [29:03 - 31:26]
- Quarter horses, thoroughbreds, and warmbloods.
- Training, Competing, and Life with Horses: [50:46 - 56:07]
- A day in the life of professional rider Elizabeth; dangers and dedication of the sport.
- Stephen Dubner Rides a Dressage Horse: [63:13 - 65:49]
- Personal, humorous, and insightful reflection on the experience.
Conclusion
This episode pulls back the curtain on the enduring, evolving partnership between humans and horses—from their ancient role as tools of empire to today’s status as expensive, specialized athletes and beloved companions. It spotlights the complexity and opacity of the modern horse market, the deep emotional and physical connections between riders and their “dance partners,” and Dubner’s firsthand discovery of what it feels like to join this age-old partnership—even briefly.
Stayed tuned for Part Two, where the story moves to racetracks, thoroughbred economics, and the world of high-stakes gambling and breeding.