657. Whose “Messiah” Is It Anyway?

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode 657 Summary

Title: Whose “Messiah” Is It Anyway?
Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Stephen Dubner
Guests: Dame Jane Glover, Mark Reisinger, Kathryn Hogg, Michael Marissen, Susannah Heschel

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Overview:

The final installment of the “Making Messiah” series investigates why Handel’s Messiah continues to captivate audiences nearly 300 years after its debut. Host Stephen Dubner delves into Messiah's musical evolution, the theological and cultural complexities in its libretto, its performance traditions, and the diverse identities—musical, religious, and cultural—that have shaped its legacy. Through interviews with leading conductors, musicologists, and scholars, the episode uncovers how Messiah has been reinterpreted across centuries and cultures, prompting the core question: Whose Messiah is it, anyway?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Enduring Power of Messiah

• Jane Glover’s First Encounter & Lifelong Relationship
  • Jane Glover, an acclaimed conductor and Handel biographer, recounts first hearing Messiah at age 9, being especially moved by its contemplative sections.
  • Quote: "Something rang a chord within me and I couldn't really articulate it at the age of nine. But I somehow knew instinctively that music was going to be important and that Handel was going to be important to me." – Jane Glover (01:37)
  • Glover has since conducted over 120 performances of Messiah and expresses that it moves her every time:
    • Dubner: "Does the story still move you of Messiah?"
    • Glover: "Absolutely. Every time." (02:40)

A Jewish Influence on Christmas Music

• Dubner highlights famous Christmas songs written by Jewish composers, then pivots to Messiah's complexity amid Christian and Jewish traditions.

Handel’s Life, Legacy, and Business Acumen

• Handel as Entrepreneur
  • Handel was astute with money, investing wisely in ventures like the South Sea Company, unlike Mozart, who struggled financially.
  • Quote: "He had such a good nose for money. He was in the City of London the whole time, buying and selling in the markets." – Jane Glover (06:28)
• Messiah’s London Reception & The Role of the Foundling Hospital
  • After a lukewarm initial London reception, Messiah became established at the Foundling Hospital, where annual charity performances solidified its legacy.
  • Handel’s bequest of Messiah’s score to the hospital ensured its performances, raising substantial funds.
  • Quote: "If we really think about the birthplace of Messiah as a continuously performed piece ... this is the place that really made it." – Stephen Dubner (08:49)
• Handel’s Will & Social Conscience
  • Handel’s will prioritized his servant—a rare gesture at the time—and made significant bequests to musicians in need.
  • Kathryn Hogg reads: “To put a servant first was very unusual … he puts the servant at the top. He did give a lot of money to the fund for decayed musicians." (09:45)
• Handel’s Last Years
  • Handel was blind in his final years but remained methodical and composed until his death. London mourned deeply upon his passing.

Messiah’s Musical Evolution Through the Ages

• “Strand A” and “Strand B” in Messiah Performances
  • Mark Reisinger: Outlines two performance traditions:
    • “Strand A” originates with Handel’s own performances.
    • “Strand B” consists of later adaptations, beginning with Mozart’s 1789 reorchestration.
• Mozart's Adaptation (13:58)
  • Mozart updated Messiah’s instrumentation to suit 18th-century Vienna, adding clarinets, horns, and flutes:
    • "It's a little bit like having your house redecorated. You know, the structure remains the same, but the color scheme is different." – Jane Glover (14:07)
  • Mozart's approach did not change the structure or text, paralleling Handel’s own practice of revising scores to suit performers.
• Mega-Messiahs and the Empire (16:14)
  • By the 19th century, Messiah was staged with enormous choirs (up to 2,700 singers) in venues like the Crystal Palace, celebrating both music and the British Empire.
• Move Toward Historically Informed Performance (HIP) (17:54)
  • The late 20th century saw a revival of period-authentic interpretation, notably with Christopher Hogwood’s recordings at Baroque pitch.
  • Reisinger explains: The difference between Baroque pitch (A=415Hz) and modern pitch (A=440Hz), along with gut strings and smaller ensembles, creates a warmer, more transparent sound:
    • "There is a transparency of sound, a lightness … not with metal strings, but with gut strings… Modern instruments need to be able to project with more force because our concert halls have gotten bigger..." (20:18)
  • As a bass, Reisinger notes that pitch affects vocal comfort and color, which influences performance choices.

Libretto Controversies and the Jewish Question

• Charles Jennens’ Theological Agenda (24:30)
  • Michael Marissen discusses how Charles Jennens compiled Messiah’s libretto, carefully selecting verses from both Testaments, often with polemical, supersessionist intent.
  • Marissen: "He's very carefully chosen which verses from the Hebrew Bible to have set to music ... to show that the New Testament really is what he thought of as, and classical Christianity thought of as, a fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible." (25:36)
  • Certain texts, like “And he shall purify the sons of Levi,” are interpreted in ways that reflect Christian replacement theology.
  • Marissen points out that the reading of these passages was controversial even in Handel’s day.
  • Quote: "He knew full well that the wording that he's using here was controversial." – Michael Marissen (21:02; 25:36)
• Modern Responses to Antisemitism in Messiah (29:38)
  • Dartmouth professor Susannah Heschel discusses the work’s fraught relationship with Judaism and the challenge of loving art with problematic legacies:
    • "On the one hand, there's nothing especially horrific about Handel's Messiah libretto ... But of course when you put something to music, it has a different impact." (30:00)
  • On historical Jewish ownership and pride:
    • “I would say that if we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left … There are great, important works that we have to read, but we read them critically and that's fine.” (31:50)
    • “There was a time … a sense of pride. We gave the world a Messiah ..." (32:50)

Notable Adaptations and Progressive Performances

• Leonard Bernstein’s Messiah at Carnegie Hall (1956) (33:27)
  • Bernstein created a two-part Messiah, rearranging movements and cutting material — a radical departure. He cast two African American soloists and a countertenor, breaking racial and vocal tradition in a still-segregated New York.
  • Mark Reisinger: “[Bernstein] created a two part performance out of what had originally been a three part work … I’m not aware of another major performance that's ever done that.” (33:49)
  • Russell Oberlin's role as a countertenor was a first on a major American stage.

The Musician’s Life: Then and Now

• Dubner and Glover discuss the realities and precarity of music careers:
  • While today’s musicians face uncertainties, so did most in Handel’s era unless attached to wealthy patrons.
  • Glover: “Every era has its own challenges … Most of us nowadays think we're in that [precarious] camp.” (42:15)

The Art of Conducting Messiah

• Jane Glover’s Approach
  • On her role: “The bottom line is that the conductor is responsible to the composer. I have to, I think, convey what the composer put on the page to the audience.” (44:32)
  • On conducting from memory, without a score:
    • “You’re absolutely close to your musicians and just you have them in your hands in a sense, and everybody's doing it together. I think people like it.” (45:10)

The 2025 New York Philharmonic Performance

• Glover describes bringing her own professional chorus and working with New York Philharmonic’s Baroque-sized ensemble.
• Every performance is different, determined by venue, forces, and interpretation, but the "spirit" should remain constant.
• At rehearsal, Glover’s attention to dynamic contrasts ("have the courage to be even quieter") shapes both vulnerability and power in the music.

The Transformative Power of Art

• Dubner’s closing reflection draws from the episode’s major questions, reflecting on Messiah as a “doorway to a world of possibility, even in the face of chaos and despair.”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Jane Glover on her first encounter with Messiah:
  "Something rang a chord within me and I couldn't really articulate it at the age of nine. But I somehow knew instinctively that music ... and Handel was going to be important." (01:37)

• Jane Glover on Messiah’s enduring effect:
  "Does the story still move you of Messiah?"
  "Every time." (02:42)

• Kathryn Hogg on Messiah’s importance to the Foundling Hospital:
  "Otherwise it might just have languished and not been known." (09:02)

• Jane Glover on Mozart's arrangement:
  "It's a little bit like having your house redecorated." (14:07)

• Mark Reisinger on the allure of Messiah:
  “We can point to Messiah as the first work in music history that never faded from public view. It has remained a hit really, from the 1750s right on through to the present day.” (12:54)

• Michael Marissen on Charles Jennens’ agenda:
  “He’s very carefully chosen which verses from the Hebrew Bible ... to show that the New Testament really is what he thought of as ... a fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible.” (25:36)

• Susannah Heschel on art, problematic histories, and pride:
  "If we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left." (31:50)
  "We gave the world a Messiah. ... There’s a sense of pride, of ownership. This is ours." (32:50)

• Jane Glover on conducting without a score:
  “You have them in your hands, in a sense, and everybody's doing it together. I think people like it.” (45:10)

• Stephen Dubner’s closing reflection:
  "...It feels like a doorway to a world of possibility, even in the face of chaos and despair. Especially in the face of chaos and despair." (End)

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Major Segments & Timestamps

• Jane Glover’s Introduction and Early Messiah Experience (01:25 – 02:46)
• History of Messiah Performances at the Foundling Hospital (07:44 – 09:15)
• Handel’s Will and Legacy (09:36 – 12:26)
• Evolution of Messiah Performance Practice — Mozart, Mega-choirs, HIP (13:09 – 20:57)
• Libretto Controversies and Theological Criticisms (24:30 – approx 33:27)
• Bernstein’s 1956 Messiah – Diversity and Rearrangement (33:27 – 35:50)
• Jane Glover, Conducting Philosophy, and Contemporary Performance (41:22 – 47:59)
• Stephen Dubner’s Final Reflections (48:07 – end)

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Memorable Moments

• Jane Glover’s reminiscence of her earliest Messiah performance as a student at St. George’s, Handel’s own church. (41:22)
• Susannah Heschel’s assertion of Jewish ownership and pride in the legacy of Messiah. (32:50)
• Bernstein’s radical performance at Carnegie Hall, breaking racial and musical boundaries. (33:49)
• Glover’s rehearsal instruction on capturing “real human frailty.” (47:59)
• Dubner’s immersive experience listening to Messiah, obscured from visual performance, reflecting on how the music “does something in the world.” (48:07 – end)

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Conclusion

This rich episode explores the layered history, changing interpretations, and cultural ownership of Handel’s Messiah. Through musicological insight, historical analysis, and lived experience, it captures how this work, despite (or because of) its complexities and controversies, remains an artistic and human touchstone spanning centuries and communities.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by nyquil Intense Flu flu symptoms don't keep business hours. They like to show up at night interrupting your sleep. Nyquil Intense Flu helps shut them down. Specially formulated to ease flu and cold symptoms. It is the nighttime sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with the flu medicine delivering fast, powerful flu symptom relief for up to 6 hours. Nyquil intense flu works overnight so you can sleep. Try NYQUIL Intense Flu today. Use as directed. Keep out of reach of children. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Turn your expensive wireless present into a wireless savings future. Shop Mint unlimited [e-mail] freak limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for 3 month, $90 for 6 month or $180 for 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term 25 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. Jane Glover is an early music scholar and a prolific conductor.

[Jane Glover]

I've conducted over 120 performances of Messiah, which I have loved since I was 9 years old.

[Stephen Dubner]

That first Messiah she heard was at Lincoln Cathedral in the East Midlands of England.

[Jane Glover]

My grandparents lived there and we had a family Christmas and we were all taken to Messiah. And I was blown away by this piece. I can to this day remember everything about it. What had really blown me away was not the huge stuff. It wasn't actually Alleluia and Amen, though of course they did. It was actually the much more contemplative stuff. The thing I wanted to come and bash out on the piano when we got home was I know that my Redeemer livethat. Something rang a chord within me and I couldn't really articulate it at the age of nine. But I somehow knew instinctively that music was going to be important and that Handel was going to be important to me. Because whenever I encountered Handel and it's certainly Messiah, it always felt natural and familiar. And this is what I should be doing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Does the story still move you of Messiah?

[Jane Glover]

Absolutely.

[Stephen Dubner]

Every time.

[Jane Glover]

Every time.

[Stephen Dubner]

Does Messiah move you the way it moves? Jane Glover? Maybe, maybe not. It's not for everyone. Maybe you prefer some other music this time of year. The 20th Century Christmas Songbook includes some of the most famous American music ever written. This song is considered the best selling single of all time.

[Susanna Heschel]

I.

[Stephen Dubner]

Dreaming of a White.

[Mark Reisinger]

Christmas.

[Stephen Dubner]

You probably know this one too.

[Mark Reisinger]

Chestnuts roasting on an open fire.

[Stephen Dubner]

And don't forget this one Rocking around the Christmas tree at the Christmas party House. All of these Christmas songs, by the way, were written not by Christians, but by Jews. I know. Plot Twist Today on Freakonomics Radio, we keep twisting the plot of Messiah.

[Susanna Heschel]

If we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left.

[Stephen Dubner]

We'll hear how musicians across time, from Mozart to Bernstein, have put their mark on Messiah.

[Jane Glover]

It's a little bit like having your house redecorated.

[Stephen Dubner]

The trumpet shall sound, and if all goes according to plan, we shall be changed. Whose Messiah is it anyways? The final episode of our Making Messiah series begins now.

[Susanna Heschel]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

[Stephen Dubner]

When we first set out to make this series about Handel's Messiah, one of the most helpful books I read was called Handel in the Making of a Genius by Jane Glover. So Glover was already someone we wanted to speak with. And then we heard that she would also be conducting this year's Messiah at the New York Philharmonic, which is my hometown orchestra. So this past spring we met up with her in London in the house where George Fritter Candle used to live. It's on Brook street in Mayfair.

[Jane Glover]

And this was a new build then. It was a well to do neighborhood. So much of London in the 18th century was centered around squares, big squares. Each of them had a church in the middle, probably a marketplace, and then shops around. And this is where we are in the Hanover Square environment.

[Stephen Dubner]

Handel moved into this house in 1723 and he lived there for more than 35 years. Today it is a museum called the Handel Hendrix House. As in Jimi Hendrix. For a brief time in the 1960s he lived next door. So there is a Hendrix museum too. Over on the Handel side, the rooms have been restored to mid 18th century. Upstairs are the rooms where Handel Handel worked and slept. Downstairs there's a parlor with an organ where Handel would have performed for small audiences and sold tickets to his larger concerts. As we heard in last week's episode, Handel had found success not only as a composer and performer, but as an entrepreneurial producer.

[Jane Glover]

He was so good with money. As somebody who's also written about Mozart, who was hopeless with money, completely rubbish with money. He was just desperate with money.

[Stephen Dubner]

Now what do you mean by that? He wasted it and overspent or he wasn't good at making it?

[Jane Glover]

Well, he wasn't good at sort of keeping it. And if he had it, he gave it away. And if he didn't have it, you know it was desperate. It was only when his wife, Constanza, realized that they were in deep trouble. She had a great business sense. She took things over and turned things around. Handel, on the other hand, he had such a good nose for money. He was in the City of London the whole time, buying and selling in the markets. He, for instance, bought shares in the South Sea Company at just the right.

[Stephen Dubner]

Time and got out at the right.

[Jane Glover]

Time and sold way before the crash. Other colleagues and friends of his were ruined by the South Sea bubble, including patrons of his. Including patrons of his. But when he was running his concert series in the theaters here, he just knew what to charge. They knew how to pay people. Of course. He had a very good team around him. But you just know that he' the heart of this operation.

[Stephen Dubner]

When we left off last week, Handel's new oratorio Messiah had been a smash hit in Dublin. But when he brought it back to London, it landed rather quietly. Several Years later, in 1749, he performed the Hallelujah Chorus at a benefit for the Foundling Hospital, a home for abandoned children near Russell Square. Today it too is a museum. London has a lot of museums, if you haven't heard. So we decided to visit the very first concert here.

[Kathryn Hogg]

He wrote a different piece called the Founding Hospital Anthem, in which he lifted the whole of the Hallelujah course and put it into the Foundling Hospital.

[Stephen Dubner]

But that was only the one time.

[Kathryn Hogg]

That was just the one time.

[Stephen Dubner]

Kathryn Hogg is a musicologist and head librarian at the Foundling Museum. After that first performance at the Foundling, Handel would return regularly for big charity fundraisers. And what did he perform then?

[Kathryn Hogg]

It was the full Messiah. Every time it's a slightly different version, the Founding Hospital Messiah, as it's known, just because he changed over the years, depending on his soloists and so on. But as far as we know, it was the full works. Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

If we really think about the birthplace of Messiah as a continuously performed piece, obviously it was in Dublin when it debuted in London. It wasn't much of a hit. But then this is the place that really made it.

[Kathryn Hogg]

Yes, it took off here. Otherwise it might just have languished and not been known.

[Stephen Dubner]

How do you feel about that?

[Kathryn Hogg]

Oh, pretty impressed with us, yes. If I can identify with the 18th century hospital, yes, it's a very privileged place to be.

[Stephen Dubner]

Haagg now leads us up a staircase.

[Kathryn Hogg]

So now we're on the top floor of the museum, and this holds the Gerald Cook Handel collection, and it's the biggest private collection of Handel in the world. So we have paintings, scores, manuscripts, books, libretti, memorabilia, so called Handeliana, which is everything that doesn't fit into any other category.

[Stephen Dubner]

In a glass case, there is a weathered parchment.

[Kathryn Hogg]

This is Handel's will, which is one of our key objects. This is the real thing. This was in his bureau, which was opened after he died.

[Stephen Dubner]

Would you read us a few lines?

[Kathryn Hogg]

I like the bit at the beginning. In the name of God, amen. I, George Frederick Handel, considering the uncertainty of human life, do make this my will in manner following, which is a very characteristic phrase. And then, very interestingly, the first thing he mentions. I given, bequeath unto my servant, Peter Leland, my clothes and linen and 300 pounds. To put a servant first was very unusual. Servants usually came at the end with a month's or year's wages, but he puts the servant at the top. He did give a lot of money to the fund for decayed musicians. The last codicil is more of a stream of consciousness. And it's the apothecary and it's the neighbourhood. Quite a few widows. And then we can also see that he's going blind, because in the codicils, which were all written in the last four years of his life, I think the signatures are getting more and more wobbly.

[Jane Glover]

He'd been quite quiet over the last few years of his life.

[Stephen Dubner]

Jane Glover, again, he hadn't written for.

[Jane Glover]

Seven or eight years. He was completely blind and not at all well, but was seen in the church around the corner. All the time talk about what his.

[Stephen Dubner]

State of mind was as he was declining, heading toward death.

[Jane Glover]

I think he knew where he was going and was confident that there was a greater life on the other side. I do think that. And he said goodbye to people quite methodically and then went on his own journey.

[Mark Reisinger]

O death, where.

[Jane Glover]

Where is thy stable darkness?

[Stephen Dubner]

Handel died at home at age 74 on April 14, 1759. It had been 17 years and one day since Messiah was first performed in Dublin.

[Jane Glover]

London went into mourning. He was a huge figure, just huge. All of society knew him and, of course, every musician knew him. He was deeply revered. I mean, it was very much the end of an era when he went.

[Stephen Dubner]

In Handel's will, there was one more significant bequest. In fact, the most significant bequest of all. Here again is Catherine Hogg at the Foundling Museum, reading from the will.

[Kathryn Hogg]

I leave a fair copy of the score on parts of my oratorio called Messiah to the founding hospital. So three weeks after he died, it was delivered. 1054 pages were delivered to the hospital, which is a score on parts.

[Stephen Dubner]

When I think today of what it means to leave a score, I would think it's a gift that is memorabilia and, you know, a piece of him. But it was really an economic gift.

[Kathryn Hogg]

Yeah, very much. They couldn't carry on the concerts which had raised 7,000 pounds, which is several million today. You know, they couldn't have carried on with concerts if they didn't have the music.

[Stephen Dubner]

So what do you think the bequest of the will was worth to the Foundling Hospital?

[Kathryn Hogg]

Oh, probably in today's terms, millions.

[Mark Reisinger]

The version of the work which he bequeathed to the Foundling Hospital, a complete score and a set of parts really represents our best shot at understanding an authoritative or final version of the piece.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Mark Risinger, who we've been hearing from throughout this series. He is a musicologist and Handel specialist in New York City.

[Mark Reisinger]

We can point to Messiah as the first work in music history that never faded from public view. It has remained a hit really, from the 1750s right on through to the present day.

[Stephen Dubner]

Riesinger separates Messiah performances into two historical strands.

[Mark Reisinger]

Strand A is the one that originated with Handel himself, from the time that he conducted the premiere of the work in Dublin, then returned to London, began to do performances there and carried on right through to the end of his life, being involved as much as he could be, even after he lost his sight.

[Stephen Dubner]

But things changed once Handel died.

[Mark Reisinger]

What came after his death, especially starting in the 1780s, is what I refer.

[Stephen Dubner]

To as Strand B. Strand B included Messiah adaptations. Among the first wave of composers to take it on was Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. He reorchestrated Messiah in 1789, 30 years after Handel's death. Here again is Jane Glover in London.

[Jane Glover]

Mozart may have heard Handel here. I think he almost certainly did when he was here as a child, but he was very young. One of his great patrons, Baron Van, was a huge handle and indeed Bach fanatic back in Vienna was trying to get their pieces performed and showed some handle scores, including Messiah, to Mozart. Mozart was absolutely a fan, particularly the great contrapuntal choruses he loved. But the same with the narrative, the lyricism, the passion of the word setting. All of that would have appealed to Mozart. But if music is already a few years out of date, it's old fashioned. And so there was no way that Baron Van Swieten could put Messiah on the way it was in vienna in the 1780s. So he said to Mozart, do something. And so Mozart added this and that and the other instrumentation. He didn't change the structure or the text or anything like that. He changed some of the vocal scoring because why not? But then Handel did that himself the whole time. What I love about the Mozart version, which I've done a few times, is that you see one genius through the eyes of another. It's a little bit like having your house redecorated. You know, the structure remains the same, but the color scheme is different. It's just glorious. I smile a lot when the horns and the clarinets come in.

[Stephen Dubner]

What were the instruments that were added?

[Jane Glover]

Clarinets and horns?

[Stephen Dubner]

No. Flute.

[Jane Glover]

I think there are flutes. Yes, I think so. But certainly the trumpet shall sound is on a horn, which is interesting. I'm not sure what the reason for that is, whether there wasn't a good enough trumpet player for Mozart at the time. We also know that Mozart actually had had a childhood phobia about the trumpet. He hated it. It frightened him. And although he wrote concertos, instrumental concertos for pretty much every other instrument in the orchestra, he never wrote a trumpet conc.

[Stephen Dubner]

Around the 25th anniversary of Handel's death, Messiah began receiving even more aggressive makeovers. Here's Mark Risinger again.

[Mark Reisinger]

I think that first commemoration in 1784 originated as a plan just to bring together the largest possible number of the remarkable musical forces. You know, really capable players and singers that were in England at the time. And There were over 400 people in the choir and a couple of hundred in the orchestra. By the 1830s, they were doing these festival performances in the abbey that had over 600 musicians. In the middle of the 19th century, around the centennial of Handel's death, they began doing performances in the Crystal palace in London that had something like, you know, 2,700 singers. They were celebrating Handel, to be sure, but they were also celebrating the greatness of the empire.

[Stephen Dubner]

These mega messiahs stuck around well into the 20th century.

[Mark Reisinger]

So the one that I grew up with, that my dad first sat me down on the living room sofa and played for me, was for many years the standard, which is Eugene Ormandi, the Philadelphia Orchestra, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. That is a landmark recording that I still regard with great affection.

[Stephen Dubner]

But those big messiahs began to give some ground to a style now called hip or historically informed performance. One of the leaders of this movement was the conductor Christopher Hogwood.

[Mark Reisinger]

Hogwood was the music director of the Academy of Ancient Music, and that's the group with which he recorded the piece. Hogwood's first recording in, I think around 1981. He was pretty early in trying to record the 1750 Foundling Hospital version that no one had ever really heard before. Done with a very strict approach in terms of the number of instruments, the choice of keys for certain arias, so forth.

[Stephen Dubner]

When it is a historically informed performance, what is that exactly? What's the instrumentation, the number and type of vocalists, et cetera.

[Mark Reisinger]

The first difference that strikes most people, and I do this for my students, when you play a modern instrument performance like the Philadelphia Orchestra, right alongside Hogwood, is the difference in pitch. The pitch standard in the 18th century was an A that was 415 Hz, our modern tuning system. When the oboe comes out on stage to play the A for the rest of the orchestra to tune up, the oboe is playing an A that's 440 hertz. So it's a half step higher. It's the difference in going from here to here.

[Stephen Dubner]

Anyone who's not a musician, though, does that matter?

[Mark Reisinger]

It does. Because, for instance, as a bass, I long ago stopped accepting engagements to sing Messiah at modern pitch because that half step makes a big difference. In the bass aria in part three, the trumpet shall sound. In Handel's day, he would have heard and so forth. Today, modern audience is here. And the Hallelujah Chorus, same thing. So Handel's Hallelujah chorus would have sounded like as opposed to. And there is a real difference in the color and the feel and the mood.

[Stephen Dubner]

How do you hear that difference? What are some feelings or senses that are activated differently?

[Mark Reisinger]

The higher pitch, our modern pitch standard, the only word that comes to mind is bright. It just feels very.

[Stephen Dubner]

I was gonna say schmaltzy, but that's not fair. Right? Bright is better.

[Mark Reisinger]

And there's something slightly warmer for me about the lower pitch, the baroque pitch, but also the fact that the str string instruments are strung not with metal strings, but with gut strings. Sheep gut, cow gut was the norm in the 18th century. There is a transparency of sound, a lightness to the sound of those strings that comes through. Modern instruments need to be able to project with more force because our concert halls have gotten bigger. And so it's a natural and understandable evolution.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coming up after the break, there is another evolution to consider.

[Michael Morrison]

He knew full well that the wording that he's using here was controversial.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by FedEx. The new power move. You know those people who still rely on old school business power moves, like showing up late to meeting because they're so busy or wearing a big shiny gold watch and making sure everyone notices. Maybe it's the person who takes long, dramatic pauses every time they speak because they're so profound. But let's be honest, all those old school power moves won't keep your supply chain moving smoothly. The real power move? Using Data insights from FedEx to move your business forward. Like using predictive analytics to manage your entire supply chain, or calling out logistics problems before they arise. And sitting at the forefront of business intelligence. That's how FedEx helps modern businesses stay ahead, anticipating change, rerouting around challenges and keeping everything running smoothly. FedEx the new power move. Visit fedex.com newpowermove to learn more.

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[Stephen Dubner]

The trophy and bragging rights are rightfully yours. Before your sleeper turns In a season no one saw coming, before stats and projections turn into points on the board and your lineup falls perfectly into place, you flip the lid on a can of on nicotine pouches, and as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where fantasy's going to surpass reality. It's on products for tobacco consumers 21 years of age or warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. The lyrics of Messiah, which were assembled by Charles Jennings, are a collage of passages from the Hebrew Bible, or the Old Testament, as Christians call it, and the New Testament in this regard. It is very much like the New Testament itself, which collects and reframes earlier scriptures to present Jesus as the Messiah. Roughly two thirds of the text in Handel's Messiah comes from the Hebrew Bible, but Jews and Judaism are rarely mentioned, and when they are, the implications can be troubling. This shouldn't surprise anyone. In 18th century England, standard Christian doctrine typically cast Jews and Judaism in a negative theological light. These are the topics explored in a book, a controversial book in Messiah circles called Tainted Glory in Handel's Messiah, the Unsettling History of the World's Most Beloved Choral Work. Its author is Michael Morrison.

[Michael Morrison]

I've retired from teaching music history at Swarthmore College, and now I'm Just sort of scandalous, I suppose, writing books and giving tons of pre concert lectures and university lectures and so on and just having a grand old time.

[Stephen Dubner]

How did you come to be known as the scholar who argues that Messiah is anti Semitic? Or at least in part?

[Michael Morrison]

Well, partly because I was one of the very few people who thought such a thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

There wasn't a lot of scholarship previously on that question.

[Michael Morrison]

No, not really. It was a little bit from a much admired colleague. David Hunter had written in passing about some aspects of this. But it started, I guess, because I've spoken frequently against this idea that people say historians are just supposed to be 100% objective and they're not supposed to have any agenda whatsoever and so on. I said, well, that's arguably a nice ideal, but I don't know any historian who fits that description. I can't think of a single one. They were accusing me of being agenda driven. I said, you know, guilty as charged.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so what was Morrison's agenda? His answer really has to do with Charles Jennings agenda.

[Michael Morrison]

He's very carefully chosen which verses from the Hebrew Bible to have set to music and which verses from the New Testament to have set to music. It turns out that almost every single text that's set to music in Messiah, whatever testament it's from, that particular text is found in the other Testament as well. I think the reason he did that was not just to show off his biblical knowledge. It was to show that the New Testament really is what he thought of as, and classical Christianity thought of as a fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible. The other really big factor is that Jews, of course, translated the Bible into Greek a few hundred years before the New Testament was written. That's a complicated matter too. But where it's relevant for our purposes here is that some of the readings there are different from what's in the Hebrew Bible. And some of those different readings are extremely favorable towards particular views of what God's Messiah either was or is going to be like. He knew full well that the wording that he's using here was controversial. It's not entirely clear that what it actually says in the New Testament is God was manifested in the flesh. The first significant movement in the piece for this interpretation that I've been suggesting is when it comes to the chorus singing, and they shall purify the sons of Levi. That already sounds a little dodgy, you know, because why? Well, who are the sons of Levi and what does it mean to purify them?

[Stephen Dubner]

And why are they in need of purification?

[Michael Morrison]

Exactly. I would say that the writers of the Hebrew Bible here thought that there were some abuses in the system and that God would see to it that they were cleaned up. In other words, you would move from a slightly less ideal Jewish situation to a better Jewish situation. But the way that that text was quite frequently understood in Handel's and Jenin's day, including in many of the books in Jen's massive library, some of which I was able to demonstrate he was drawing on directly for Messiah. It says, you know, God is going to purify the Levitic system of worship and so on. We're going to get God's Messiah, Jesus. To put it in the crudest terms, what it means to purify the sons of Levi is to move from the synagogue to the church.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right. Although in the original context, from the Hebrew prophet Malachi, that was plainly not the intention.

[Michael Morrison]

Speaking as a historian, that seems extremely unlikely. But if you are speaking as a classical Christian theologian, then they perfectly did think that that was the idea all along.

[Stephen Dubner]

So considering all this, how do you explain why this piece of music has not just survived, but thrived, especially compared to, you know, not many people are still singing the standard church hymns from that period.

[Michael Morrison]

Well, I mean, they were very smart to put on those regular performances of Messiah at the Foundling Hospital as a fundraising thing. That's sort of on the business side, what I think contributes to it. But I do think it's really great music, and I do think that it focuses on a subject that was of great concern to many people at that point. That comes back to what Jenin's thought he was up to in getting Handel to set this in the first place. And he's fighting against enlightenment, rationalism and Deism, the idea that God created the cosmos like a watch and wound it up and then just let it go. The whole point of the New Testament and classical Christianity was that God does intervene in history and that the most spectacular way that he ever did that was by assuming the physical body of Jesus. And so I see the whole Messiah setting as a sort of musically and emotionally fantastic defense of that idea.

[Stephen Dubner]

How much do you think Handel cared about or agreed with that agenda?

[Michael Morrison]

I don't know that he knew as much about it as Jenin's, but I know it sounds really cliche. If this kind of stuff is in the air, it's pretty hard not to be concerned about it.

[Susanna Heschel]

After reading Morrison, it's very hard to listen to the Messiah.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Susanna Heschel. She is chair of the Jewish Studies program at Dartmouth. She is Also the daughter of the late Abraham Joshua Heschel. He was a theologian, author and civil rights leader, perhaps the most influential rabbi in 20th century America.

[Susanna Heschel]

On the one hand, there's nothing especially horrific about Handel's Messiah libretto. It's not especially denigrating or negative. There are far worse expressions of denigrating Judaism, 2000 Years in art and theological writings. But of course, when you put something to music, it has a different impact. When a politician gets up and makes declarations against the Jews during the Third Reich and says Jews are terrible, that's one thing. But if you go to church and your pastor gets up and talks about the perfidious Jews and how Germans have to be protected from Jewish degeneracy, that has a different impact. And I would say with music, music is seductive and we may not even pay attention in the moment to the words we're hearing, but they wash over us.

[Stephen Dubner]

When it comes to the title character in Handel's Messiah, Heschel points to one especially large paradox.

[Susanna Heschel]

Jesus never said he was a Christian. He was called Rabbi. So if you want the faith of Jesus, go to a synagogue.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you have any idea what share of, let's say American Christians think about Jesus as a rabbi or even know that Jesus was Jewish?

[Jane Glover]

They don't.

[Susanna Heschel]

And it's remarkable. Many students of mine at Dartmouth are taken aback when you say Jesus was Jewish. Jesus was Jewish. Jesus was a rabbi. They're surprised. Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

So is it okay in the year 2025 for a Jew like me to love Handel's Messiah?

[Susanna Heschel]

Yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me why. I mean, I'm grateful for the yes, but tell me why.

[Susanna Heschel]

Look, these questions have arisen over and over about, for example, Wagner, Richard Wagner didn't like Jews at all, even though his favorite conductor was a Jew and so on. And Jews loved his music in Germany. But what he wrote in his pamphlet Judaism and Music, first published in 1850, is horrible, horrible antisemitism. Is that the reason for the Holocaust? Well, no, of course not. Was he the only one? Absolutely not. I would say that if we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left. I mean, what are we going to do with the Great Gatsby? What should we do with Merchant of Venice? There are great, important works that we have to read, but we read them critically and that's fine. I don't believe we have to overthrow the canon, whether it's a literary canon or musical.

[Stephen Dubner]

Does that mean that therefore that Handel's Messiah can be a jolly good wish for universal peace.

[Susanna Heschel]

I would suggest something a little different. There was a time I remember from my childhood, but I also read in the literature produced by Jews in Germany in the 19th century, which is also a golden era, which is a sense of pride. We gave the world a Messiah. Look what we've done. We gave the world the Bible, God, monotheism. Without us there would be no Christianity. So in fact there's a sense of pride, of ownership. This is ours.

[Stephen Dubner]

Leonard Bernstein, one of the best known Jewish conductors in history, led the New York Philharmonic in A Messiah at Carnegie hall in 1956. That was a year before Bernstein's west side Story opened on Broadway. The Messiah he put together for the Philharmonic was significantly trimmed and restructured.

[Mark Reisinger]

To my knowledge it is unique.

[Stephen Dubner]

That again is the musicologist Mark Reisinger.

[Mark Reisinger]

He created a two part performance out of what had originally been a three part work by taking part two, cutting it in half and reversing the two halves. That's the simplest way to explain it.

[Stephen Dubner]

If you go to the New York Philharmonics archives, you can see Bernstein's marked up Messiah score he calls part one Christmas section and part two Easter section.

[Mark Reisinger]

It's one thing to decide that you're just going to perform part one during the Christmas season, which is a common thing, or that you're going to perform several of the big choruses as part of a larger choral festival, but to give what purports to be a performance of the entire work and to completely rearrange major sections of it. I'm not aware of another major performance that's ever done that.

[Stephen Dubner]

And Bernstein made some other statements with his Messiah.

[Mark Reisinger]

In 1956, Carnegie hall still had segregated dressing rooms where seven years before the Civil Rights act was passed, for him to make the choice to have two African American soloists on stage. Adele Addison was the soprano, William Warfield was the bass. The choice of those soloists is also significant. In addition to that, Russell Oberlin was his alto soloist, a countertenor. To my knowledge there had been no countertenor performances of this music, certainly on a major stage like Carnegie Hall. So this must have been a revelatory experience for most of the audience to hear a man singing in the female range with this very beautiful alto voice. These arias that they'd probably only ever heard sung previously. By women.

[Jane Glover]

O thou that tellest good tidings to Zion.

[Stephen Dubner]

Leonard Bernstein's Messiah was controversial. New York Times critic Harold Schoenberg complained about Bernstein's several major cuts, wholesale musical transpositions and his high handed rearrangement that scrambled the order of movements. Other critics praised Bernstein for getting in touch with the historical Messiah. He had traded in a piano, which did not exist in Handel's time, for a harpsichord. And Bernstein, in casting Russell Oberlin, not only helped launch his career, but set a path for a countertenor renaissance in America. When I looked up the soloists for this year's Messiah performances at the New York Philharmonic, which Jane Glover would be conducting, I saw that she would be using a countertenor. In fact, all four soloists in this year's Messiah would be the exact same four that I saw back in 2021, the performance that got me addicted to Messiah in the first place. So that felt like a nice closing of the circle. Coming up after the break, we ask Jane Glover if we can sit in on rehearsals.

[Michael Morrison]

Foreign.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by FedEx. The new power move. You know those people who still rely on old school business power moves. Like showing up late to meetings because they're so busy or wearing a big shiny gold watch and making sure everyone notices. Maybe it's the person who takes long dramatic pauses every time they speak because they're so profound. But let's be honest, all those old school power moves won't keep your supply chain moving smoothly. The real power move? Using Data insights from FedEx to move your business forward. Like using predictive analytics to manage your entire supply chain or calling out logistics problems before they arise. And sitting at the forefront of of business intelligence. That's how FedEx helps modern businesses stay ahead, anticipating change, rerouting around challenges and keeping everything running smoothly. The new power move. Visit fedex.com newpowermove to learn more.

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Susanna Heschel]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Stephen Dubner]

Jane Glover, after showing us Handel's old house in London, walks us around the corner to the church that Handel attended, St. George's inside, it's just us.

[Jane Glover]

It's got lovely windows, not stained glass, except at the east End, but there's a lot of light in the building and a magnificent organ.

[Stephen Dubner]

We come across a pamphlet with some history of the church and I ask Glover to read a bit. This is perhaps beneath her. After all, she has written her own book on Messiah, but honestly, I just love her voice. She is officially Dame Jane Glover and she sounds like it.

[Jane Glover]

Among the many famous men and women associated one way or the other with St. George's the best known is almost certainly George Frederick Handel. He moved to a house in Brook street around the corner in 1723, while the church was being built, and almost immediately became involved in the affairs of the new parish. He loved England and in 1726 became a naturalised British citizen. In 1751, his sight began to fail and by 1753 he was totally blind. In spite of crippling arthritis, he continued to make his way to St. George's Sunday by Sunday. He died in 1759, after 35 years as a parishioner and worshiper at St. George, Handel composed some of his greatest music at his house in Brook street, including Messiah. Although not heard in St. George's during the composer's lifetime, Messiah is now performed here annually by the church's professional choir. I have to tell you, one of the very first Messiahs I conducted was in here, but I wasn't a professional musician. Then I brought a group from Oxford, where I was, and we performed Messiah in here and it was a great thrill.

[Stephen Dubner]

You were a student still?

[Jane Glover]

I was a postgraduate student, yes. I think I was 22 or something.

[Stephen Dubner]

So that counts among your 120.

[Jane Glover]

Doesn't I count my professional ones, not my ones that I didn't get paid for.

[Stephen Dubner]

Your life today as a conductor, you're as successful and acclaimed as they get and you write books and you do other things. Beneath you, there is a pyramid of musicians and others who do work as hard as you do, I'm sure. But success and financial stability as a musician remains very, very, very difficult. There is Patronage today, it's different than it was back then. How would you compare the state of being a working musician in your realm today versus early 18th century?

[Jane Glover]

That's such an interesting question. I think every era has its own challenges and its own strengths. It probably has always felt precarious. Unless, you know, you do get a smashing royal patron, as Handel did. He was unusual in that if you had a great patron, like Haydn did and Handel did, then you were lucky. Or if you had a permanent job with the court, which many people did in the 18th century, you were fine. But if you were outside that, like Mozart, it was incredibly precarious. And I think most of us nowadays think we're in that camp. You, in a way, go from job to job or contract to contract. Your contract may be long. If you're appointed to be principal conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra for five or 10 years, then you don't need to worry about anything. Or if you have a job as the head of an opera company or you have a job in an orchestra. But even those are becoming more precarious.

[Stephen Dubner]

I know at this year's upcoming New York Philharmonic performance, which you are conducting, lucky for us, in New York, you've got a countertenor and one female soloist. Tell us what you can about the New York Philharmonic version that we'll hear.

[Jane Glover]

I've done all these 120 performances, and every one of them is different, depending on where you are and who you've got. I've done enormous ones. The biggest chorus I had was about 450 in Australia. They didn't sing it all. There was a smaller choir to sing the more challenging and contrapuntal choruses, but they sang the big stuff, and it was amazing. And I've certainly done it with symphony orchestras in places like the Royal Albert Hall. The other end of the spectrum, I've done it with, you know, 16 singers, all of whom will step out to sing the solos, like the ones in Trinity Wall street, which I did last year. My performances this year will be very different from the ones I did in Wall street last year. And yet I think the spirit of it should remain the same. I'm bringing my own chorus from Chicago, actually, from Music of the Baroque. That's a professional chorus, and they're fabulous.

[Stephen Dubner]

How do you describe your role as a conductor in the moment? What are you actually doing and what are you trying to accomplish?

[Jane Glover]

The bottom line is that the conductor is responsible to the composer. And I have to, I think, convey what the composer put on the page to the audience. Who've paid to come and hear this with the colleagues I have in front of me. It's partly technique, but it's mainly communication. Anybody can stand up and beat four, but it's whether you involve people in the beating of that four and conveying the larger picture of where those four beats are actually going.

[Stephen Dubner]

I understand you conduct Masai without a score, is that true?

[Jane Glover]

I do, yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

So how does that work? And I'm curious if anyone in the orchestra, the singers are ever made a bit nervous by the fact that you don't have a score. They do after all.

[Jane Glover]

Yeah. When I first did, for instance, Figaro Better not come with it, better remain nameless. I rehearsed with the score and then we got to the dress rehearsal and I did a few notes before we started the run. And then I closed the score and handed it to my assistant behind me. And the concert master said, what are you doing? And I said, I don't need that now. He said, what? Course you need it. What happens if something goes wrong? And I said, well, I'll put it right. He really didn't want me to do that at all. But mostly, particularly on the concert platform, the desk goes away. You're absolutely close to your musicians and just you have them in your hands in a sense, and everybody's doing it together. I think people like it.

[Stephen Dubner]

When December came, Jane Glover arrived in New York City to conduct this year's run of four Messiah performances at Lincoln Center. As she mentioned when we spoke in London, she brought her own choral group, Music of the Baroque from Chicago. Then there was a baroque sized selection of 30 some musicians from the New York Philharmonic and the four vocal, the soprano Amanda Forsythe, countertenor John Holiday, tenor Nicholas Pon and bass baritone Kevin Days. They wouldn't have much time to all rehearse together, but everyone was plainly prepared. Jane Glover perhaps most of all. We said a quick hello, lovely to see you again. And then we let her get on with her work.

[Jane Glover]

Let's do the Last Resurrection. Pick up to 140.

[Stephen Dubner]

As with St. George's Church in London, we were the only civilians around. Jane Glover led them through the full piece, from the opening Sinfonia. To a rousing Amen chorus. When Glover told me earlier that she wants to have the musicians and the singers in her hands, well, here's what it sounds like when she does that. As needed, Glover would stop her players and give instruction.

[Jane Glover]

Have the courage, if you just even to be quieter because I want this to be real human frailty. And then we let it be very.

[Stephen Dubner]

Unfrail, have the courage to be even quieter, she told them. Glover wanted to sense the real human frailty, as she put it, so that when it's time for the piece to be unfrail, we would really feel it. This reminded me of something the author Charles King told us earlier about the first vocal movement of Messiah. It begins with the idea of comfort ye, comfort ye, my people. What is remarkable about that text is that it's not saying be of comfort. It is saying you do the comforting. You go and act in the world in a comforting way. It felt like it was a piece of art that could do something in the world. Not comfort you, actually, but buck you up. I went back back to Lincoln center later that week, twice in fact, to see and hear Jane Glover conduct Messiah. I understand now why she is so revered. Her conducting is joyful and energetic. Athletic is maybe the best way to describe it. She doesn't use a score, of course, so she's always totally engaged with the players. And you can watch the music seize her, the way it has seized so many people for so many years. In addition to the two Philharmonic performances I attended that week and the rehearsal, I managed to slip in one more Messiah down at St. Thomas Church on Fifth Avenue. They're famous for their boys choir school. I had arrived late, and the only seat I could find was way toward the back behind a massive stone column. It blocked my entire view. Couldn't see a single performer, so I just listened. I listened to the violin choruses that had somehow sprung from Handel's mind nearly 300 years ago. I listened to what Jane Glover had taught me to listen for the frailties and the unfrailties. Every once in a while I felt the rumble of a subway train passing by underneath the church. I loved the contradictions, the new and the old, the crooked straight, the rough places plain. I'm not quite sure how to describe my relationship with this piece of music. Yes, I find it beautiful and moving, but it's more than that. It feels like a doorway to a world of possibility, even in the face of chaos and despair. Especially in the face of chaos and despair. I appreciate your accompanying me on this journey into the heart of Handel's Messiah, and I hope you have a nice holiday season, whatever holiday you may celebrate, including none at all. We will be back soon with another episode. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. It's [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This series was produced with great care and skill and ambition by Zach Lipinski and it was edited also with care, skill and ambition by Ellen Frankman. It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy Johnson. We had recording help in New York from Evan Manners in London and Chester from Rob Double and in Dublin from Regan Hutchins. Thanks also to Katrine Nyland Sorenson for her help with production and for her podcast handles Messiah the Advent Calendar. Special thanks to the London Symphony Orchestra and LSO Live for letting us use their recording of Messiah conducted by Sir Colin Davis in 2006. I have listened to this recording hundreds of times over the past few years and it it never gets old. Also big thanks to the New York Philharmonic for letting us sit in on their Messiah, which was properly awesome. Thanks also to all the musicologists, conductors, musicians, historians and others who shared their insights, including Tim Page. And thanks to both the Handel Hendricks House and the Foundling Museum in London for their kind cooperation. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Eleanor Osborne, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Hilaria Montenacourt, Morgan Levy, Sarah Lilly and Teo Jacobs.

[Jane Glover]

He moved to a house in Brook street while the church was being built. Sounds as if the church is still being built.

[Susanna Heschel]

The freakonomics radio national network the hidden side of everything.

[Kathryn Hogg]

Stitcher.

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[Stephen Dubner]

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