Freakonomics Radio Episode 657 Summary

Title: Whose “Messiah” Is It Anyway?
Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Stephen Dubner
Guests: Dame Jane Glover, Mark Reisinger, Kathryn Hogg, Michael Marissen, Susannah Heschel

Overview:

The final installment of the “Making Messiah” series investigates why Handel’s Messiah continues to captivate audiences nearly 300 years after its debut. Host Stephen Dubner delves into Messiah's musical evolution, the theological and cultural complexities in its libretto, its performance traditions, and the diverse identities—musical, religious, and cultural—that have shaped its legacy. Through interviews with leading conductors, musicologists, and scholars, the episode uncovers how Messiah has been reinterpreted across centuries and cultures, prompting the core question: Whose Messiah is it, anyway?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Enduring Power of Messiah

• Jane Glover’s First Encounter & Lifelong Relationship
  • Jane Glover, an acclaimed conductor and Handel biographer, recounts first hearing Messiah at age 9, being especially moved by its contemplative sections.
  • Quote: "Something rang a chord within me and I couldn't really articulate it at the age of nine. But I somehow knew instinctively that music was going to be important and that Handel was going to be important to me." – Jane Glover (01:37)
  • Glover has since conducted over 120 performances of Messiah and expresses that it moves her every time:
    • Dubner: "Does the story still move you of Messiah?"
    • Glover: "Absolutely. Every time." (02:40)

A Jewish Influence on Christmas Music

• Dubner highlights famous Christmas songs written by Jewish composers, then pivots to Messiah's complexity amid Christian and Jewish traditions.

Handel’s Life, Legacy, and Business Acumen

• Handel as Entrepreneur
  • Handel was astute with money, investing wisely in ventures like the South Sea Company, unlike Mozart, who struggled financially.
  • Quote: "He had such a good nose for money. He was in the City of London the whole time, buying and selling in the markets." – Jane Glover (06:28)
• Messiah’s London Reception & The Role of the Foundling Hospital
  • After a lukewarm initial London reception, Messiah became established at the Foundling Hospital, where annual charity performances solidified its legacy.
  • Handel’s bequest of Messiah’s score to the hospital ensured its performances, raising substantial funds.
  • Quote: "If we really think about the birthplace of Messiah as a continuously performed piece ... this is the place that really made it." – Stephen Dubner (08:49)
• Handel’s Will & Social Conscience
  • Handel’s will prioritized his servant—a rare gesture at the time—and made significant bequests to musicians in need.
  • Kathryn Hogg reads: “To put a servant first was very unusual … he puts the servant at the top. He did give a lot of money to the fund for decayed musicians." (09:45)
• Handel’s Last Years
  • Handel was blind in his final years but remained methodical and composed until his death. London mourned deeply upon his passing.

Messiah’s Musical Evolution Through the Ages

• “Strand A” and “Strand B” in Messiah Performances
  • Mark Reisinger: Outlines two performance traditions:
    • “Strand A” originates with Handel’s own performances.
    • “Strand B” consists of later adaptations, beginning with Mozart’s 1789 reorchestration.
• Mozart's Adaptation (13:58)
  • Mozart updated Messiah’s instrumentation to suit 18th-century Vienna, adding clarinets, horns, and flutes:
    • "It's a little bit like having your house redecorated. You know, the structure remains the same, but the color scheme is different." – Jane Glover (14:07)
  • Mozart's approach did not change the structure or text, paralleling Handel’s own practice of revising scores to suit performers.
• Mega-Messiahs and the Empire (16:14)
  • By the 19th century, Messiah was staged with enormous choirs (up to 2,700 singers) in venues like the Crystal Palace, celebrating both music and the British Empire.
• Move Toward Historically Informed Performance (HIP) (17:54)
  • The late 20th century saw a revival of period-authentic interpretation, notably with Christopher Hogwood’s recordings at Baroque pitch.
  • Reisinger explains: The difference between Baroque pitch (A=415Hz) and modern pitch (A=440Hz), along with gut strings and smaller ensembles, creates a warmer, more transparent sound:
    • "There is a transparency of sound, a lightness … not with metal strings, but with gut strings… Modern instruments need to be able to project with more force because our concert halls have gotten bigger..." (20:18)
  • As a bass, Reisinger notes that pitch affects vocal comfort and color, which influences performance choices.

Libretto Controversies and the Jewish Question

• Charles Jennens’ Theological Agenda (24:30)
  • Michael Marissen discusses how Charles Jennens compiled Messiah’s libretto, carefully selecting verses from both Testaments, often with polemical, supersessionist intent.
  • Marissen: "He's very carefully chosen which verses from the Hebrew Bible to have set to music ... to show that the New Testament really is what he thought of as, and classical Christianity thought of as, a fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible." (25:36)
  • Certain texts, like “And he shall purify the sons of Levi,” are interpreted in ways that reflect Christian replacement theology.
  • Marissen points out that the reading of these passages was controversial even in Handel’s day.
  • Quote: "He knew full well that the wording that he's using here was controversial." – Michael Marissen (21:02; 25:36)
• Modern Responses to Antisemitism in Messiah (29:38)
  • Dartmouth professor Susannah Heschel discusses the work’s fraught relationship with Judaism and the challenge of loving art with problematic legacies:
    • "On the one hand, there's nothing especially horrific about Handel's Messiah libretto ... But of course when you put something to music, it has a different impact." (30:00)
  • On historical Jewish ownership and pride:
    • “I would say that if we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left … There are great, important works that we have to read, but we read them critically and that's fine.” (31:50)
    • “There was a time … a sense of pride. We gave the world a Messiah ..." (32:50)

Notable Adaptations and Progressive Performances

• Leonard Bernstein’s Messiah at Carnegie Hall (1956) (33:27)
  • Bernstein created a two-part Messiah, rearranging movements and cutting material — a radical departure. He cast two African American soloists and a countertenor, breaking racial and vocal tradition in a still-segregated New York.
  • Mark Reisinger: “[Bernstein] created a two part performance out of what had originally been a three part work … I’m not aware of another major performance that's ever done that.” (33:49)
  • Russell Oberlin's role as a countertenor was a first on a major American stage.

The Musician’s Life: Then and Now

• Dubner and Glover discuss the realities and precarity of music careers:
  • While today’s musicians face uncertainties, so did most in Handel’s era unless attached to wealthy patrons.
  • Glover: “Every era has its own challenges … Most of us nowadays think we're in that [precarious] camp.” (42:15)

The Art of Conducting Messiah

• Jane Glover’s Approach
  • On her role: “The bottom line is that the conductor is responsible to the composer. I have to, I think, convey what the composer put on the page to the audience.” (44:32)
  • On conducting from memory, without a score:
    • “You’re absolutely close to your musicians and just you have them in your hands in a sense, and everybody's doing it together. I think people like it.” (45:10)

The 2025 New York Philharmonic Performance

• Glover describes bringing her own professional chorus and working with New York Philharmonic’s Baroque-sized ensemble.
• Every performance is different, determined by venue, forces, and interpretation, but the "spirit" should remain constant.
• At rehearsal, Glover’s attention to dynamic contrasts ("have the courage to be even quieter") shapes both vulnerability and power in the music.

The Transformative Power of Art

• Dubner’s closing reflection draws from the episode’s major questions, reflecting on Messiah as a “doorway to a world of possibility, even in the face of chaos and despair.”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Jane Glover on her first encounter with Messiah:
  "Something rang a chord within me and I couldn't really articulate it at the age of nine. But I somehow knew instinctively that music ... and Handel was going to be important." (01:37)

• Jane Glover on Messiah’s enduring effect:
  "Does the story still move you of Messiah?"
  "Every time." (02:42)

• Kathryn Hogg on Messiah’s importance to the Foundling Hospital:
  "Otherwise it might just have languished and not been known." (09:02)

• Jane Glover on Mozart's arrangement:
  "It's a little bit like having your house redecorated." (14:07)

• Mark Reisinger on the allure of Messiah:
  “We can point to Messiah as the first work in music history that never faded from public view. It has remained a hit really, from the 1750s right on through to the present day.” (12:54)

• Michael Marissen on Charles Jennens’ agenda:
  “He’s very carefully chosen which verses from the Hebrew Bible ... to show that the New Testament really is what he thought of as ... a fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible.” (25:36)

• Susannah Heschel on art, problematic histories, and pride:
  "If we were to avoid reading or listening to any of the anti Jewish material of the last 2,000 years, we wouldn't have much left." (31:50)
  "We gave the world a Messiah. ... There’s a sense of pride, of ownership. This is ours." (32:50)

• Jane Glover on conducting without a score:
  “You have them in your hands, in a sense, and everybody's doing it together. I think people like it.” (45:10)

• Stephen Dubner’s closing reflection:
  "...It feels like a doorway to a world of possibility, even in the face of chaos and despair. Especially in the face of chaos and despair." (End)

Major Segments & Timestamps

• Jane Glover’s Introduction and Early Messiah Experience (01:25 – 02:46)
• History of Messiah Performances at the Foundling Hospital (07:44 – 09:15)
• Handel’s Will and Legacy (09:36 – 12:26)
• Evolution of Messiah Performance Practice — Mozart, Mega-choirs, HIP (13:09 – 20:57)
• Libretto Controversies and Theological Criticisms (24:30 – approx 33:27)
• Bernstein’s 1956 Messiah – Diversity and Rearrangement (33:27 – 35:50)
• Jane Glover, Conducting Philosophy, and Contemporary Performance (41:22 – 47:59)
• Stephen Dubner’s Final Reflections (48:07 – end)

Memorable Moments

• Jane Glover’s reminiscence of her earliest Messiah performance as a student at St. George’s, Handel’s own church. (41:22)
• Susannah Heschel’s assertion of Jewish ownership and pride in the legacy of Messiah. (32:50)
• Bernstein’s radical performance at Carnegie Hall, breaking racial and musical boundaries. (33:49)
• Glover’s rehearsal instruction on capturing “real human frailty.” (47:59)
• Dubner’s immersive experience listening to Messiah, obscured from visual performance, reflecting on how the music “does something in the world.” (48:07 – end)

Conclusion

This rich episode explores the layered history, changing interpretations, and cultural ownership of Handel’s Messiah. Through musicological insight, historical analysis, and lived experience, it captures how this work, despite (or because of) its complexities and controversies, remains an artistic and human touchstone spanning centuries and communities.