669. Why Is 95 Percent of the World’s Bourbon Made in Kentucky?

Summary

---

Freakonomics Radio Episode 669: Why Is 95 Percent of the World’s Bourbon Made in Kentucky?

Date: April 3, 2026
Host: Stephen J. Dubner

---

Overview

This episode of Freakonomics Radio dives deep into the remarkable concentration of bourbon production in Kentucky—home to 95% of the world’s bourbon. Host Stephen Dubner untangles the historical, economic, cultural, and regulatory factors giving rise to Kentucky's bourbon dominance. Along the way, the show explores the economics of aging spirits, recent shifts in consumer preferences, regulatory quirks, global trade barriers, and what the future may hold for an industry facing both oversupply and cooling demand.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Kentucky Bourbon Mystique

• Geographic Concentration: Nearly all bourbon is produced in a narrow region of Kentucky—echoing the similarly tight focus of the thoroughbred horse industry there.
• History & Infrastructure: Once a declining industry, bourbon underwent a significant boom from 2012–2022, growing from 4 million to 16 million barrels in storage in Kentucky ([04:18]).
• Tradition as Competitive Advantage: “95% of bourbon made in the world is made within a 45 minute drive of the house I live in.”
  — Ken Trosky, labor economist ([04:13])

2. Bourbon Basics: What is Bourbon and How Does it Age?

• Legal Definition: Bourbon must be made in the U.S. (not just Kentucky), from at least 51% corn, distilled to 160 proof or less, stored at 125 proof or less, and aged in new, charred oak barrels for at least two years to be called "straight bourbon" ([06:40]).
• Aging as Investment: Unlike most products, bourbon requires years of aging, tying up capital and creating complex supply-and-demand problems.
  • “Most bourbon is dumped at 4 years... 6 to 8 years is considered a sweet spot.”
    — Ken Trosky ([07:42])
• Premium & Scarcity: Rare, long-aged bourbons skyrocket in value and scarcity, sometimes fueling thefts, counterfeiting, and speculation ([05:10]-[05:58]).

3. Industry Ups and Downs: The Post-Boom Glut

• Recent Retrenchment: After the COVID-driven sales spike, bourbon demand is falling, leading to overstock—16 million barrels now maturing, while US sales drop and tariffs hinder export growth ([08:26]).
• Production Cuts: Major producers, including Jim Beam, pause production ([08:26]).
• Structural Overcapacity: With too much supply and waning demand, especially among younger consumers, some small or over-leveraged distillers face existential threats ([13:54], [47:32]).

4. Why Kentucky?

• Natural Advantages:
  • Limestone Water: Filtered through mineral-rich limestone, Kentucky's water supports both fast horses and flavorful spirits ([02:37], [28:36]).
  • Local Corn: Most corn comes from nearby fields, helping with taste and logistics ([28:36]).
• Historical Path Dependence: Kentucky's early dominance built an infrastructure that newcomers flocked to, reinforcing the state’s monopoly ([28:36]).
• Marketing & Protectionism: Official designations boost credibility but also protect incumbent producers—mirroring Champagne and Scotch ([07:10], [41:05]).
  • “You do have to admit it’s a bit convenient...”
    — Andrew Muhammad, agricultural economist ([41:05])

5. Regulatory Hurdles and Market Distortions

• Three-Tier System: Alcohol must be sold from producer to distributor to retailer—complicating logistics and inflating prices across states ([15:44]).
  • “If you’re producing spirits, you can’t sell it directly to consumers...”
    — Stephen Dubner ([16:18])
  • “That system... was to limit the impact of the mob on alcohol sales.”
    — Ken Trosky ([16:07])
• Price Arbitrage: Dramatic price differences between the distillery gift shop and retail outlets across the country ([17:00]).
  • “Why am I paying $74 for a bottle... and somebody in La Jolla, California, paying $400 for that?”
    — Ken Trosky ([18:37])

6. Changing Tastes and the Rise of Ready-to-Drink (RTD)

• Generational Shifts: Gen Z and younger demographics are moving toward RTDs and white spirits, not traditional bourbon ([12:34]).
  • “The ready-to-drink market [is] at 20 plus percent growth... similar to what bourbon was doing a few years ago, but we’re seeing it mostly in the white spirit.”
    — Brad Patrick ([13:06])
• Tourism & Innovation: Bourbon tourism (Bourbon Trail) is thriving, offering producers another lifeline ([49:01]).

7. Global Trade and Bourbon’s International Future

• Tariff Troubles: Trump-era tariffs, especially EU retaliatory duties on whiskey, severely affect export ambitions ([42:43]).
  • “When someone finds a new favorite bourbon, they spend less on what they used to spend money on. No company wants to risk that.”
    — Andrew Muhammad ([43:53])
• Marketing Success & Limits: Jack Daniel’s global success shows what can happen with the right marketing but so far, Scotch outpaces bourbon internationally ($40B vs. $10–11B markets) ([14:58]).

8. The Unique Economics of Aging

• Time as Value:
  • Unlike most products, where aging is a cost or inconvenience, with bourbon, aged stock is celebrated and can command huge premiums—even more as a status symbol than for flavor ([46:18]).
  • “Time is an actual product attribute that consumers seem to value even beyond the taste...”
    — Andrew Muhammad ([46:18])
• But… The Market Softens: Oversupply means diminished secondary (collector) markets and possible consolidation ([47:14], [13:54]).

9. Bourbon’s Future: Destruction, Creation, and Buzzballs

• Industry Outlook: Industry insiders expect consolidation, with brands and innovative players surviving while contract-only distillers struggle ([13:54], [47:32]).
• Emergent Trends: Sazerac’s acquisition of Buzzballs—the RTD cocktail sphere—signals adaptation to changing consumer habits ([49:01]).
  • “They are not what the core bourbon geek wants, and that’s a good thing because there are many different market segments.”
    — Danny Kahn ([49:59])
• Awaiting the Next Export Boom: Hopes for India and China remain, but it's a waiting game due to regulatory and trade barriers ([47:53]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the heady bourbon boom:

  • “When I got there, bourbon was just starting to recover from a long period of time of when it was in decline... Now, there’s over a hundred [distilleries], and it’s coming down.”
    — Ken Trosky ([04:27], [07:42])

• On regulatory craziness:

  • “Prior to January 2022, if you’re a producer... the distributor... had to take possession... then sell it back to the producer so that the producer could sell it in their gift shop.”
    — Ken Trosky ([16:26])

• On overproduction and shifting tastes:

  • “We don’t have a quality problem. We have a quantity problem.”
    — Brad Patrick ([11:42])

• On the myth of Kentucky’s natural superiority:

  • “I will say that I can defend every single one of those components as to why they are positive for flavor.”
    — Danny Kahn ([27:19])

• On time as a selling point:

  • “Time is an inconvenience. But when it comes to bourbon, time is an actual product attribute that consumers seem to value even beyond the taste of the product itself.”
    — Andrew Muhammad ([46:18])

• On generational divides:

  • “Our young consumers now are switching to the ready to drinks... We’re seeing that ready to drink market at 20 plus percent growth... mostly in the white spirit.”
    — Brad Patrick ([12:34])

• On the fun of Buzzballs:

  • “My youngest daughter, her friends think I’m a hero because I work for the company that makes and sells Buzzballs... I take that credit and don’t tell them the truth, that I have nothing to do with them.”
    — Danny Kahn ([50:59])

---

Key Segments / Timestamps

• 00:00–03:37 — Setting up the bourbon-Kentucky paradox; introduction of the economic puzzle.
• 04:05–08:26 — Ken Trosky on bourbon’s local dominance, history, aging economics.
• 09:07–13:54 — Brad Patrick on industry boom-bust, aging, quality versus quantity, shifting demographics.
• 15:44–19:24 — Regulatory oddities in alcohol distribution; gift shop workaround; price inefficiencies.
• 23:09–36:36 — Danny Kahn, Master Distiller: Technical breakdown of bourbon production, barrel process, natural advantages, flavor chemistry.
• 40:01–45:24 — Andrew Muhammad on consumer psychology, protectionism, tariffs, global marketing, and pricing.
• 45:40–46:18 — Kentucky’s barrel tax and patience as a core business virtue.
• 46:18–48:29 — The future: glut in supply, creative destruction, innovation opportunities.
• 49:01–50:59 — Rise of ready-to-drink (RTD) cocktails; Sazerac’s Buzzballs play; tourism as a future growth area.
• 50:59–51:29 — Closing thoughts, preview of next episode.

---

Tone and Style

The episode blends Freakonomics’ signature curiosity with humor, skepticism, and accessible technical exploration. As always, the tone is inquisitive, a bit irreverent, and empathetic toward both traditionalists and innovators.

---

Summary Table

| Topic | Speaker(s) | Timestamp | |------------------------------|---------------------------|-------------| | Kentucky dominance | Ken Trosky | 04:13–04:18 | | Legal definitions | Ken Trosky, Danny Kahn | 06:40–07:10, 26:04–26:30 | | Market glut, changing tastes | Brad Patrick, Ken Trosky | 08:26–14:54 | | Regulatory hurdles | Ken Trosky | 15:44–19:24 | | Production science | Danny Kahn | 23:09–36:36 | | Consumer psychology | Andrew Muhammad | 40:01–46:18 | | Global trade & tariffs | Andrew Muhammad | 42:43–45:24 | | Creative destruction | Brad Patrick | 47:32–49:41 | | RTDs/Buzzballs | Danny Kahn | 49:01–50:59 |

---

Conclusion

In this lively, detailed episode, Freakonomics Radio uncovers not just why most bourbon is made in Kentucky, but also the tangled web of tradition, regulation, business cycles, changing customer preferences, and global trade machinations that will shape bourbon’s future. The show suggests the next chapter for Kentucky bourbon may come from adaptation—whether through product innovation (RTDs), experiential tourism, or eventually, new export booms.

---

Memorable Wisdom:
“We don’t have a quality problem. We have a quantity problem.”
— Brad Patrick ([11:42])

“Time is an inconvenience... But when it comes to bourbon, time is an actual product attribute that consumers seem to value even beyond the taste…”
— Andrew Muhammad ([46:18])

---

This summary distills the primary themes, memorable moments, key timestamps, and expert voices, serving as a standalone guide for listeners and bourbon aficionados alike.

Transcript

[A]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by LinkedIn ads ever invested in something that didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, like impressions, but then they don't see revenue. LinkedIn has a word for bullspend instead. You can get the highest roas of major ad networks with LinkedIn. Cut the bullspend, advertise on LinkedIn, spend $250 and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com freakonomics and terms apply. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint Mobile exists purely to fix that. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Shop [e-mail] freak upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month new customer first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Most products can be sold pretty much as soon as they're made, and that's important if you are in the business of making things, because you can start earning back your investment right away. But some products require a further investment of time after they've been manufactured. It could be years worth of time. Certain cheeses come to mind, wine occasionally, but especially spirits. The most famous example is Scotch whiskey. The older the barrel, the dearer the bottle. And the most famous American example is bourbon. I don't happen to drink much bourbon, but the bourbon industry started to sound interesting when we did a three part series on the horse industry. That series is called the Horse is Us. If you'd like to listen One interesting feature of the thoroughbred horse market is how concentrated it is in one relatively small area, the Bluegrass region surrounding Lexington, Kentucky. Can you guess another industry that is concentrated in one small part of Kentucky? Correct bourbon. So we thought we'd poke around that industry to see what we can learn. Just one episode though, not three. We will look at how time functions as an investment input and along the way we will ask a lot of questions. Like why is bourbon manufacturing so concentrated in Kentucky?

[B]

They talk about the limestone, the same thing that makes fast racehorses.

[A]

But do we also detect a note of protectionism?

[C]

You do have to admit it's a bit convenient.

[A]

That said, the industry has a problem.

[D]

We don't have a quality problem. We have a quantity problem.

[A]

Demand for bourbon is shrinking. New tariffs are scrambling global Trade and bourbon is getting a little bit glutty.

[B]

Currently there are 16 million barrels of bourbon aging in the state of Kentucky.

[A]

So how concerned is the industry?

[D]

Well, it should be very concerned.

[A]

The good news is that there will be a lot of well aged bourbon in the future. Today on Freakonomics Radio, let's pour one out for things that age well. L'. Chaim.

[E]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that

[F]

explores the hidden side of everything with

[E]

your host, Stephen Dubner.

[A]

Okay, this show has economics in its name, so let's start with an economist.

[B]

My name is Ken Trosky. I'm a labor economist and chair of the economics department at the University of Kentucky.

[A]

Trotsky grew up in Washington State, got his PhD at the University of Chicago and he moved to Kentucky about 20 years ago.

[B]

95% of bourbon made in the world is made within a 45 minute drive of the house I live in.

[A]

It was Trotsky we heard from a minute ago saying that there are 16 million barrels of bourbon aging in Kentucky. That is up from 4 million when Trotsky arrived.

[B]

When I got there, bourbon was just starting to recover from a long period of time of when it was in decline. And I was hearing about this bourbon called Pappy Van Winkles. I told my wife one time for Christmas, I said, you know, I, I'd like to try some. So she went into the local Big Box liquor store and there were a couple of bottles of 20 year old Pappy, but it was $120 a bottle,

[A]

which is maybe triple what a typical bottle would be.

[B]

Oh yeah, at least. Okay, it's $120. So she thinks, ah, it's not worth it. And then she goes home and then she says, well, it's a Christmas present, yada yada. And she goes back and she buys it at $120 a bottle. You try to find a bottle of 20 year old Pappy's right now and it's probably 2,500, 3,000. And I'm like, what? Why didn't you get two?

[A]

Pepe Van Winkle is one of a couple dozen bourbon brands controlled by Sazerac, which is one of the biggest spirits producers in the U.S. some of the other Sazerac bourbons are Buffalo Trace Blanton's Eagle Rare. Pappy Van Winkle is aged much longer than most bourbons and is at the high end of the price scale. You can always tell that a commodity is getting more valuable when more people start to steal it. Like when thieves rip out the copper wiring at construction sites or go under your car with a sawzall to cut out the catalytic converter. During the bourbon boom, 65 cases of 20 year Pappy Van Winkle were stolen from a warehouse. The black market value was an estimated $100,000. Ken Trosky had not been a bourbon man when he moved to Kentucky, but by now he could understand the appeal.

[B]

I drank that stuff, it's really good. After that, you know, I just started trying other different bourbons.

[A]

And so your curiosity was taste based. You weren't necessarily thinking about the economics of it.

[B]

Well, when people come to Kentucky, what

[A]

are you going to do with them horses and bourbon?

[B]

You got to take them to a horse farm, you got to take them to a distillery. So I started learning about the production of this stuff and more about the market. And it is a fascinating market in ways that touch a lot of other types of economics. First off, if you want to call it bourbon, you can't sell it for at least two years and most of the time it's four to six.

[A]

I've read that that's a little bit of a myth that there's no actual enforced minimum. Or is that not true?

[B]

So I am looking at and I'll read it to you. According to the code of Federal Regulations, the CFR Chapter 27, Section 5.143, if you want to call it straight bourbon whiskey has to be fermented mash, not less than 51% corn, 160 proof, distilled in the United States, stored in new American charred oak barrels at 125 proof for at least two years. So it's gotta be stored for two years to be called straight bourbon whiskey.

[A]

This regulatory code dates back to 1964, when U.S. congress passed a resolution declaring bourbon a distinctive product of the United States. The way that only Scotland can produce Scotch whiskey. Or how only the Champagne region of northern France can produce champagne, better known in these parts as champagne. Ken Trasky, once he started paying attention to the bourbon industry, could see that it presented some unusual economics, especially around pricing. And the pricing is driven by time.

[B]

Most bourbon is dumped at 4 years bottom shelf bourbon probably 4, 6 to 8 years is considered a sweet spot. When thinking about pricing the product, you have to take into account I got all this bourbon that's right behind me, that's sitting in a warehouse. This is a really, really interesting, hard problem to solve. That doesn't mean it's not a competitive market because everybody has to do the same thing. It does raise barriers to entry, but it can't raise that much because when I got to Kentucky, There were probably six distilleries, and now there's over 100, and it's coming down. Given some of the recent changes in the bourbon industry.

[A]

When Trotsky says recent changes, he is talking about what is starting to look like a serious retrenchment in the bourbon industry. The COVID shutdown was good for alcohol sales, too good if you talk to public health people. But since 2022, demand for bourbon has been falling, and that's a problem if you've already got 16 million additional barrels aging in their Rick houses. The biggest bourbon producer, Jim Beam, which is part of the Japanese spirits company Suntory, just announced that it would pause production at its flagship distillery for the next year. And there have been layoffs and consolidation at other big bourbon producers. So let's hear from someone who spends time with these companies.

[D]

My name is Brad Patrick. I am the executive in residence and lecturer at the University of Kentucky Gatton College of Business and Economics. As a land grant university, we're here to support the business missions of the bourbon industry.

[A]

Where are you from originally? I detect a little bit of Southernness in your accent.

[D]

Yeah, I grew up in eastern Kentucky and also a bit in Indiana.

[A]

Where in eastern Kentucky were you?

[D]

That's hard to describe. There's a county called Nott County. You know, we in Kentucky like to talk about our counties. Nott county is where it is at the foot of Ball Mountain at the fork of Sand Lake. How's that for my neighborhood?

[A]

That did it for me. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Not too far from Possum Trot.

[A]

Patrick is also a bourbon fellow at the James B. Beam Institute for Kentucky Spirits, which is also attached to the university. He teaches, conducts research and consults with the bourbon industry.

[D]

From 2012 to 2021, 22, things have been booming. People have been just jumping into the industry and making things happen. That's where we've been. And now we've bumped into a wall here. And now people have to rethink what they're doing.

[A]

There was a Wall Street Journal article I'm sure you saw headlined, America's Bourbon Boom is over. Now the hangover is here. Walk me through that.

[D]

This lesson that we've bumped into this wall is one that has happened. The famous ones, you have the whiskey lock stories from the 1980s when the Scotch industry overproduced and got crazy and jumped on this bandwagon. The bourbon industry itself had that from Prohibition to the 1970s. It's just a rush to make More product because consumers were there. And then like in the 1970s for bourbon, the generation that was coming on didn't want to drink daddy's old brown spirit anymore. And as a person that studies change and the concept of creative destruction, I always wonder, is anybody wrong here? It was a bunch of individual bourbon distilleries making what they believed to be good investments in equipment and capital expenses, believing that the consumer was always going to be there. The other complexity with bourbon is you make it and you put it away to sleep for four to eight years minimum.

[F]

2.

[D]

But you start getting your quality at four, your sweet spots in your six to eight, six to 10 years. So I think it's a combination of a lot of enthusiasm to get big in the market, to toss something over the wal and people will buy it. And then just when the market changed, you're now left sitting on 16.1 million barrels.

[A]

Yeah. So what's going to happen to those 16 million?

[D]

That's a great question, isn't it? We don't have a quality problem, we have a quantity problem. So we're going to have a glut of it available.

[A]

So the glut is maybe one problem. What about quality? Does the quality of the bourbon just keep increasing the longer you age it or does it start to decline?

[D]

What you'll find from the bourbon connoisseurs is once you get past 10, you'll start to lose some people with this oakiness, heavier oakiness, you will get premium stuff. And when you think about a Pappy van winkle that's 21, 23 years old, there's not a lot of juice left in that barrel from evaporation and leakage and so forth. So it's a premium product. I think the bourbon industry in general has been pretty innovative. They've always rushed to some unique consumer aspect, but what they've just been hit with is a whole bunch of things at once. With the major one being the, I guess we're going to call them Gen Z's consumer taste and changing expectations. It's fallen off the table. You have your tariff issues, you have the health issues, you have competing aspects of THC and cannabis products. And then what you have on the health side of it is our young consumers now are switching to the ready to drinks, the either alcoholic or non alcoholic cocktails in a can. We're seeing that ready to drink market at 20 plus percent growth. So it's similar what bourbon was doing a few years ago, but we're seeing it mostly in the white spirit.

[A]

I Get it that younger consumers are less interested in grandpa's old brown drink. On the other hand, young consumers get older and we've got an elder swell now. The older population is the one that's growing the most. So I would think that this could be a boom time for bourbon. So what are you seeing going on among older drinkers in the us? Is it more the health and wellness concerns? Is it GLP1s? Why do you think there's the fall off?

[D]

I don't know enough about the Ozempics and all those other things and how people are taking that, but I do know that there is probably some price fatigue. There's probably too much variety. There's between 800 and 1,000 SKUs out there. That's a lot of choice.

[A]

Wait, just bourbons?

[D]

Yeah. And the idea, with all the innovation and creativity, there's just too many choices.

[A]

So how can. How concerned is the bourbon industry?

[D]

Well, it should be very concerned. What we're seeing right now are those that were built for the big contract distillation business. That's make a spirit so people can take and blend it. That's gone or going away. So if you're a business that was all set up to be just a contract maker and you borrowed money from a bank, you're probably in the most trouble. We're up to 120 plus distilleries in Kentucky. So that number is going to have to dwindle for good economic reasons. Your next group of people are the ones that did it through a private equity aspect so they have more control over their debt, but they're going to struggle. The ones that will live will be the distilleries that have a brand. What you're going to find is inappropriate weeding out of businesses. Same thing the Scotch industry found in the 1980s. They've consolidated down to five major players. Basically they were up over 140, I think distilleries at one point. So I think we're seeing seeing some of the same things.

[A]

It seems as though the global Scotch market is much bigger than the global bourbon market.

[D]

Yeah, they're $40 billion business and the bourbon's going to get you in the 10 to 11 billion. Scotch has done a very nice job of establishing themselves as a global business. They've gotten their protections, they have their trade agreements, they've done a nice job of creating who they are. I think they're well established and they have the right infrastructure to do it. And the bourbon industry does not have the infrastructure.

[A]

What's missing A lot of things. Okay, let's unpack some of the bourbon industry's infrastructure problems. One thing that makes it harder for those 16 million aging barrels of bourbon to get into the hands of consumers is how the sale of liquor is regulated.

[B]

In the US the regulation can only be described as sort of odd.

[A]

That again, is the economist Ken Trosky.

[B]

It's what's called a three tier distribution system. The producer can only produce. They cannot have any financial relationship with the company that then buys it and distributes it to the ultimate seller. And that distributor can have no financial relationship with the ultimate seller.

[A]

And this makes sense how? Other than a historical artifact?

[B]

My understanding is the reason that they produce the system coming out of prohibition is to limit the impact of the mob on alcohol sales.

[A]

And so that's why to this day, if you're producing spirits, you can't sell it directly to consumers, maybe at your distillery, I guess.

[B]

Well, okay, let me tell you an interesting story about that. Prior to January 2022, if you're a producer of bourbon running a gift shop, and you wanted to sell your product in the gift shop, the distributor, they had to take possession of the product when it came out of the bonded warehouses, complete the paperwork, pay the taxes, and then literally sell it back to the producer so that the producer could sell it in their gift shop. They changed that in January 2022. So now when you walk into the Buffalo Trace Woodford Reserve or whatever gift shop you walk into, they are selling it directly.

[A]

Did that lower the prices?

[B]

Well, let's be careful. So, for example, when I go to Buffalo Trace, I can buy a bottle of Blanton's for about $74 at the gift shop. Anywhere else in Kentucky, you just walk into a local shop, it's probably $130. I was in a liquor store in La Jolla, California, and I said, you got a bottle of Blanton's, what do you sell it to me for? $400. That's kind of bonkers.

[A]

As an economist, how do you feel about this three tier system for alcohol distribution today? I would think it's just full of inefficiency and middlemen. What you call rent seeking.

[B]

Well, there's a lot of people that make whiskeys and alcohols. And so the production's fairly competitive. The distribution there, Republican, Southern, the sales, I think that seems pretty competitive. A lot of it has to do with the allocation. You want to sell Blands, your distributor has to give it to you. It's only released certain times of the year. And then what the distributor does is say, hey, I'll give you some of this blends that you can sell for a lot of money, but you got to be a good seller of other things. So you gotta be a good seller of Fireball, the local wine shop right around the corner. For me. Love it. Been going there for years. I know the owner, Allie, she's great. She has stocks and bourbon as well. And she occasionally gets Blanton's, has given some to me. But her distributor basically told her, I would give you more Blanton's if you sold more Fireball. Well, she sells plants and she sells wine. That's her big thing. And her market is a bunch of. I would say the typical customer in there is younger than me, but not that much younger.

[A]

It's not a Fireball crowd.

[B]

You're saying, no, it's not a Fireball crowd. And she's like, that's mental. I'm not gonna do that. The one group, of course, that is always hurt by inefficient regulation is the consumer. Why am I paying $74 for a bottle of Blanton's when I go to Buffalo Trace and somebody in La Jolla, California, paying $400 for that? And why can't I walk over to buffalo trace, buy 10 bottles? They won't sell it to me, but let's ignore that. Buy 10 bottles at the gift shop, stick it in the back of my car, and drive to the liquor store in La Jolla, California, say, hey, yeah, you're selling it for four, I'll sell it to you for two. Well, I'll make a little bite of money.

[A]

That's illegal since bourbon doesn't have to be made in Kentucky to be considered bourbon. Why does 95% of the bourbon come from Kentucky?

[B]

I think it's just tradition. It grew up, they built the facilities. It has to be stored somewhere. You want to talk to a master distiller who knows about these things?

[A]

After the break, we talk to a master distiller who does indeed know about these things.

[F]

You have cellulose, then you have hemicellulose, then you've got a group of compounds called lignans, which are really complicated.

[A]

I'm Stephen Dubner, this is Freakonomics radio. We will be right back. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Tired of spending hundreds on crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that cost you more in the long run then a premium wireless plan from mint mobile for 15 bucks a month might be right for you stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for $15 a month. If you like your money, Mint Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] freak that's mintmobile.com freak upfront payment $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Adobe Acrobat. You need to make a huge presentation in an hour. Luckily, Adobe Acrobat uses AI to take all your documents and generate a presentation in a few clicks, building slides faster than ever before. So if you need a last minute pitch deck, do that with Acrobat. Need to level up your presentation design? Do that with acrobat. You have 30 plus documents that need to be simplified into a proposal. Do that, do that do that with Acrobat. Learn [e-mail] do that with Acrobat. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Range Rover Sport A vehicle that blends power, poise and performance with a distinctly British design, the Range Rover Sport is built to take on roads anywhere, free from unnecessary details. Its raw power and agility shine. Combining a dynamic sporting personality with elegance and agility, it delivers an instinctive drive. Its assertive stance hints at an equally refined driving performance. Defining true modern luxury, the Range Rover Sport features the latest innovations in comfort and convenience. The Cabin Air Purification System alongside the the Active Noise Cancellation creates a new level of quality, comfort and control. Terrain Response 2 offers seven terrain modes to choose from, fine tuning the vehicle for any challenging roads ahead of force inside and out. The Range Rover Sport is available with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug in hybrid with an estimated range of 53 miles. Build your Range Rover Sport at range rover.com US Sport. We've been talking about the end product in the bourbon industry. The bottle that winds up on a store shelf. But how is that brown stuff actually made for that? We need to talk to this person.

[F]

My name is Danny Kahn. My title is Master Distiller Distillation and Aging Operations Director Sazerac Sazerac was founded

[A]

in New Orleans in 1869. It still has offices there, but its main operation is now in Louisville, Kentucky. Sazerac is privately owned and makes hundreds of Spirits, including brands of vodka, gin, rum, tequila, and many bourbons.

[F]

I started with Sazerac as the master distiller for Barton 1792, which is about an hour away from Buffalo Trace in a town called Bardstown, Kentucky, the bourbon capital of the world, as they certainly like to say. So I oversee the distilling and aging operations, production at Buffalo trace at Barton 1792 and at our Collingwood Distillery, which is in Collingwood, Ontario.

[A]

Where are you from, Danny? Where'd you grow up?

[F]

I grew up in Los Angeles.

[A]

And did you set out to be a master distiller?

[F]

No. In fact, before I distilled, I was a brewer. But I will tell you with certainty that no high school counselor ever said, how about a career in brewing? But I did go to the University of California at Davis, which is a big agriculture school.

[A]

Yep.

[F]

Very big ag school. And I went in as a chemical engineer because it was hard and it seemed like a good place to start for a particular reason. My friend and I needed to learn how to homebrew.

[A]

What was that particular reason?

[F]

My best friend's fake ID was confiscated. He was very panicky, and, you know, he had to go to court. I was panicky, too, and I said, we have to learn how to make beer. There was a homebrew shop in Davis and started to make beer and absolutely fell in love with the science and the art of. It turns out that UC Davis has viticulture and enology, which is grape growing. In winemaking, I ended up taking a preliminary class. I didn't even know Sauvignon Blanc was a white wine, but I studied and I thrived on creating something that people enjoyed and that it had social impacts and economic impacts and global impacts. So I just fell in love with the science and the business of alcohol production. I eventually evolved into fermentation science, which for me was a cross between chemical engineering and microbiology.

[A]

You worked in beer making, correct?

[F]

Yes, I worked at Anheuser Busch in a variety of locations for many, many years. It was a phenomenal technical education.

[A]

I would think. It's not so easy to switch from being a master beer person to a master bourbon person.

[F]

It was a very logical transition. If you think about whiskey, we make beer first, then we distill it, and then we age it. So all of that knowledge was a great foundation to go into distillation.

[A]

Maybe you could give us a quick tutorial in how bourbon goes from being raw materials to the bottle.

[F]

How much time you got?

[A]

Is three days enough?

[F]

No. So five things required to be bourbon. 51% or more corn. It has to be made in the USA. It has to be distilled to no more than 160 proof. That's 80% alcohol. It has to be put away into a barrel or a container no more than 125 proof, and it must go into a new charred oak container. In our case, we use a barrel.

[A]

I have to say, when I read these rules, they sound to me like a 16th century religious proclamation.

[F]

I'll tell you, this was a law based on prior history, and certainly I'd like to think that that had everything to do with what makes the best bourbon. And let's put in regulation to continue to make a very notable product. Now, to what degree were the corn lobbies involved in the.

[A]

That's what I always wonder. I have read that the barrel makers and the copper industry and maybe the corn industry all really loved this confluence of rules. You're saying that these rules were derived for the primary purpose of improving or protecting quality. Tell me what you can about how there might have been a little bit of not self dealing necessarily, but people looking out for their own interests.

[F]

I will say that I can defend every single one of those components as to why they are positive for flavor.

[A]

Let's do that. That'd be fun. Let's start with the corn.

[F]

Corn. Okay, so first of all, it's my belief that our forefathers came over more familiar with rye whiskey. And as they went west, I'm sure they learned that rye does not grow well. It grows well in the upper plains of Canada. It grows in Europe, grows well in the northeastern states. It does not grow well as they moved west. But what does corn. It's plentiful. It's got a lot of starch, which is needed to create sugar, which creates alcohol. It's got an enormous amount of flavor that comes from the oil and other components of the corn. Rye is important for flavor. It provides spice and floral notes and pepperiness and cinnamon, but does not have a ton of extract.

[A]

Okay, let's keep moving down your list. Made in the usa. What's the importance of that?

[F]

We can control it. If there's a law it applies to this country, that's a good way to control it. It does not have to be made in Kentucky, but it does have to be made in the US Even though

[A]

bourbon does not have to be made in Kentucky to be called bourbon, I see that something like 95% of all bourbon is made in Kentucky. Why is that?

[F]

Well, bourbon originated in Kentucky, became popular in Kentucky when You have an infrastructure for a distillery or two. It makes it easier for others to come in. So we grow a lot of corn, and the vast majority of our corn comes from a pretty small radius around the distillery. We talk a lot about the water in Kentucky for distilled spirits. It is truly magical. It comes through limestone caverns, so it's got a lot of calcium in it and it's got a pronounced flavor. It's minerally. Those calcium components in particular and other minerals are really important for the enzymatic reactions in the cooking process. They're also very important for certain yeast functionality. And then when we distill it, those components stay behind. They don't get carried over in the distillate. And that's a really important reason why bourbon in Kentucky is very good.

[A]

Does that mean that you have fantastic bread and pizza there as well?

[F]

I can speak for my own pizza dough, and I think it's pretty damn good.

[A]

Okay, let's hear about the third bourbon requirement, the distillation.

[F]

It can be distilled no more than 160 proof. We typically go to 135 or 140. And in so doing you retain a whole bunch of flavor. What I like to explain to people, if I distill to 160 proof and then diluted it to 125, which is it cannot be higher going into the barrel. So again, 160 to 125 versus 135 to 125, those would be very different flavors. The 160 distilled proof would tend to be lighter, a little more neutral. The lower distilled proof, 135ish, retains a lot of flavors. And those flavors are really important in how the whiskey ages. They oxidize slowly over time. They react with different components in the wood, in the distillate. So having those flavors present, they become precursors to what makes really delicious whiskey. Delicious.

[A]

Okay, the fourth item is a big one. Bourbon must be aged in new oak barrels that are charred with fire.

[F]

Now technically it's a container, but rolling boxes is hard, so we put em in barrels. But yeah, so they're a new chardo container. So there's a whole process and I'll be brief on this, but don't feel

[D]

you need to be brief.

[A]

I like you, am very interested in this part.

[F]

Okay, this is super interesting. When a barrel is made, the tree is cut and it's quartered and staves are cut. Those are the pieces that become the individual components of the barrel. The Long, skinny pieces. Typically, there's 34 to 36 staves per barrel. They're cut, and then we stack them up Jenga style so there's airflow. And we let them sit out in the field for approximately a year. That process is called seasoning. Rainwater will rinse off certain components called tannins and others. And then normal microbiological activity will break things down in the wood that become very important flavors later. Microbiology and fungal activity is super important for really good flavors throughout our history. So we have learned that now, that's not part of the law, but that's what we do.

[A]

You are making the barrels yourselves?

[F]

We have a cooper. A cooper is a person or a company that makes barrels.

[A]

Are they part of your operation or is that subcontracted?

[F]

It's part of Sazerac, but it's not under my responsibility. Now, I've got a very close relationship with the cooper because if we see problems, we communicate with them on a regular basis.

[A]

Now, what about the forests themselves? Do you control them or you're buying that from a third party?

[F]

The cooper is buying that. We have some of our own property, but we're buying logs on the market. And there's a very important quality check and criteria that they go through to make sure that they meet our objectives. So the staves are seasoned for about a year, and then they are brought into the cooperage and they build the barrel, they steam them, they cut them to get the right bevels.

[A]

Is this done by hand or machine?

[F]

It's very labor intensive, but the cutting is mostly done by machines. Then they will build the barrel except for the top head. So you've got all the staves, and then you've got a bottom head and a top head. And we will provide direct fire, very intense, very hot, for about 30 seconds. And that gives us a certain level of char. The char actually absorbs components, kind of like your water filter at home would do if you have bad tasting water. It's the layer below the char that's been cooked that are the extractables that we are looking for.

[A]

How is that fire being applied?

[F]

It's a natural gas through sort of a sprinkler nozzle, if you will. So there's flames coming out all directions. It gets direct flame for about 30 seconds. And then we quickly extinguish it.

[A]

And these are the open barrels going down some kind of assembly line or someone coming along to a row of barrels with their blowtorch.

[F]

It's coming through an assembly line. Then the Head is put on and the hoops tighten down the barrel so it's liquid tight. Little water's added, we give it some air pressure, make sure it doesn't leak.

[A]

And then there's no sealant of any kind.

[F]

There's often a little bit of paraffin wax on the outer edge of the head, where the head and the staves connect. No glue is used. They're all put together without glue. So you char the barrel and now you've created an environment where the whiskey can age. Okay, so let's talk about now the 125 proof component. Different things are soluble in different liquids. If anybody makes an old fashioned and you add a sugar cube, which I do like to do sometimes, like having little pieces of sugar left, and they provide little bursts of brightness and crunchiness and it's really quite fun. Anyways, a sugar cube and a couple drops of water will dissolve very rapidly. You put that same sugar cube in bourbon, it will not dissolve. So certain components in the wood are very soluble in alcohol and certain components are more soluble in water. So depending on the proof we put the whiskey in the barrel at, we can extract different components within a barrel. You have very, very, very generally four types of wood components. You have cellulose, which provides a lot of structure, not a ton of flavor,

[D]

but a little bit.

[F]

Then you have hemicellulose, which is where you get the caramel, butterscotch type components. And then you've got a group of compounds called lignans, which are really complicated, but that's generally where you get your baking spices, nutmeg and clove and vanilla and cinnamon. And then you have tannins, which are more water soluble. They provide mouthfeel and astringency, and they also provide color. All these different components are soluble at different alcohol levels. So that's a way we can manipulate flavor. It's stuff that's really just below the char. So when you age a barrel, you have losses through evaporation.

[A]

How significant?

[F]

Pretty significant.

[A]

When you open a barrel, how full does it appear to the naked eye?

[F]

It can be half full, can be less. For some of our 23 year old Bourbons, there's just a little bit left at the bottom.

[A]

What's the market for used barrels?

[F]

You know, it's a supply and demand issue. Sometimes there's great demand, sometimes it's not so great.

[A]

What is it these days?

[F]

It's not so great. Scotch whiskey slowing down a little bit. They're not taking as many barrels as they did a few years ago. Most Scotch whiskey and Irish whiskey and Indian whiskey are put in used barrels. So that is the market we can sell our barrels for other products.

[A]

I would think though, to ship them to Ireland and Scotland has got to be pretty expensive. How much do you sell them for? What's it need to be worth for you and for them?

[F]

Well, think about it this way. If we don't sell them, it's a total loss.

[A]

But suffice it to say that if the Scotch market is not particularly strong, there might be a lot of, let's say, roadside planters around Kentucky of old bourbon barrels.

[F]

I think there's a lot of roadside planters. Anyways,

[A]

coming up after the break, who wins a battle between bourbon and buzzballs? This is Freakonomics Radio. I'm Stephen Dubner and I am glad you're listening. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by NetSuite. Every business is asking the same question. How do we make AI work? For us, the possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky. But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain. Your competitors are already making their move. No more waiting. With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and and CRM into a single source of truth. Now with netsuite AI connector you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had. From key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends. Plus automate those tiresome manual processes. Let's see your computer do that. This isn't another bolted on tool. It's AI built into the system that runs your business right now. Now get their free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com freak the guide is free to you at netsuite.com freq netsuite.com freak. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Granola. You are in back to back meetings all day. You're trying to stay present, but you're also worried you will forget the decision, the action item, the important next step. That's where Granola comes in. Granola is an AI powered notepad for meetings. You jot down rough notes like you always do and in the background Granola transcribes and turns them into clear, useful notes when the meeting ends. No bots joining your calls, no distractions, just a clean notepad that helps you focus during or after the call. You can chat with your notes. Ask Granola to pull out action items to help you negotiate.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Write a follow up email or even coach you using recipes which are pre made prompts. Head to Granola AI Freakonomics and get 3 Months FREE with the code Freakonomics. That's Granola AI Freakonomics and get 3 Months FREE with code Freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com make your next work trip work for you. Hotels.com's new save your Way feature lets you choose between instant savings now or banking rewards for later. It's a flexible rewards program that puts you in control with no confusing math or blackout dates. Book now at hotels.com Save youe Way is available to loyalty members in the US and UK on hotels with member prices. Other terms apply. See site for details. Before the break, the master distiller Danny Kahn told us that the official rules of bourbon are meant to guarantee the quality of the product. But if you think about things from

[C]

the consumer side, we consumers are highly prone to seeing a naked emperor insisting that his clothes are exquisite and divine because we don't want to be that one person to say this wasn't worth $8,000.

[A]

That is Andrew Muhammad. He is an agricultural economist at the University of Tennessee.

[C]

I've been working on trade issues across all agricultural commodities, including beer, wine and spirits, for about two decades now.

[A]

And how much time does Muhammad spend thinking about the brown stuff?

[C]

Whiskey and bourbon seems to be occupying about 50% and sometimes it feels like 100% of my time.

[A]

So does Muhammad buy the argument that bourbon regulation is all about making the bourbon great? Or is there, as there is in many old industries, some soft protectionism in there to help out the incumbent distillers? And that whole new charred oak container story does make for good marketing.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you do have to admit it's a bit convenient, right? If you think about the fact that we actually export these barrels for Canadian whiskey production, Irish whiskey production, some of the finest Scotch in the world, there's very expensive Japanese whiskey that used barrels from Kentucky and Tennessee. And so to make the argument that of a quality distinction would be very convenient marketing. As an economist, this seems to me like a policy that led to an increase in demand. In a policy to sustain demand, I'll concede that I'm sure there's a distinction in terms of taste when one uses a newly charred barrel versus a second use or second charred barrel.

[A]

Now, a bourbon defender, when hearing Muhammad's explanation, might say that the reason Scotch tastes so good is because those barrels had bourbon in them first. By the way, Mohammed is not a bourbon hater, not at All.

[C]

Yeah. Like most people, I've visited distilleries. Whatever my collection is, it's probably pathetic compared to a true bourbon connoisseur. But I do try to buy reasonably priced bottles just to share with friends and to save on the shelf. I'm only willing to go so far for that. As an economist, it's also made me cheap. You can actually find very good quality stuff in the fifty to sixty dollar range. I've spent as much as maybe two hundred and fifty dollars on a bottle. I feel like I've overpaid.

[A]

As we heard earlier, the bourbon economy is shrinking because of flagging demand among US drinkers. One solution is to try to sell more of it overseas. But bourbon has gotten caught up in Donald Trump's tariff policies.

[C]

During the first trade war, we put tariffs on steel and aluminum and the entire European Union retaliated with a series of tariffs on very strategic products to try in some way affect certain politicians in those states. One retaliatory tariff was on Harley Davidson's right, and I assume that was to affect Paul Ryan. In Wisconsin, there was a tariff on peanut butter, and Europeans don't even like peanut butter. But there's this 25% tariff, and that, by the way, led to a collapse in US Peanut butter exports to Europe. Strangely enough, they also then impose this retaliatory tariff on American whiskey, which includes Tennessee whiskey and Kentucky bourbon. Right. The broader generic whiskey category coming out of the United States was subject to this 25% retaliatory tariff.

[A]

Muhammad says that some whiskey companies responded to tariffs not by raising prices, but by cutting them. Why would they do that?

[C]

Because once you lose market share in the distilled spirit sector, it's very hard to get it back. When someone finds a new favorite bourbon, they spend less on what they used to spend money on. No company wants to risk that.

[A]

But tariffs can be a problem when overseas growth is part of your business plan.

[C]

The Kentucky bourbon and Tennessee whiskey industry has done exceptional global marketing.

[A]

The biggest Tennessee whiskey by far is Jack Daniels, which is owned by Brown Forman.

[C]

Chris Stapleton's song Tennessee Whiskey, I've heard that song the world over. There were even people humming that song in Kenya when I visited on this distilled spirits project. As smooth as Tennessee whiskey, as sweet as strawberry wine. Everybody knows that song. When it comes to distilled spirits, particularly, say, Tennessee whiskey and Kentucky bourbon, these are products where people have developed serious habits, right? And I don't mean habits in a negative way. I simply mean habit formation in consumption and so even small price changes do not necessarily have huge effects on demand. Now, where we have seen retaliation, it's been quite effective, and that's in Canada. They simply took American products off the shelves. If you just leave spirits up to tariffs, we're talking about global corporations that can internally manage that. When you have these smaller craft distillers, they may not be able to.

[A]

There are other things that governments do to make things more complicated for the bourbon industry, like barrel taxes. The state of Kentucky has for decades levied an annual tax on aging bourbon just as it's sitting there in its barrel. Here's Brad Patrick again from the University of Kentucky Business School.

[D]

From a tax perspective, when you look at our history, I think what you'll see is this evil, sinful spirit that can be consumed appropriately and fairly. Had a syntax with it. And even today, if the bourbon producers fight it too much, you lose a little bit of the crowd there.

[A]

In 2025, bourbon distilleries in Kentucky paid out $75 million in barrel taxes. But that tax is being phased out. It's set to be eliminated by 2043. So the bourbon makers will just need to be patient. On the other hand, they're good at that. Patience is also part of their business plan.

[C]

Andrew Muhammad, Again, most products, time is an inconvenience, right? I tolerate time for quality. So if I want a tailored made suit and the tailor says it's gonna take me a month, I'll tolerate that month for the quality of suit I'm gonna get. But if I meet a tailor who's just as good and who can do it in two weeks, I wouldn't say no. I'll take the month because I get to somehow brag about this suit took four months instead of two weeks to put together, right? Time is an inconvenience. But when it comes to bourbon, time is an actual product attribute that consumers seem to value even beyond the taste of the product itself. The joy of seeing that on our shelves, to tell our friends that in and of itself gives us satisfaction, which then causes some people to pay the extra two, three or four thousand dollars for it.

[A]

But that secondary market has been softening. This makes sense. Overall demand for bourbon has been falling. And with 16 million barrels aging in Kentucky, oversupply could be a problem. I went back to Brad Patrick and asked what he thinks the bourbon industry will look like in five or 10 years.

[D]

You're going to have a large quantity of high quality bourbon spirits out there. Now, what are you going to do with it? And how are you going to handle it? That is a great question. There's going to be an answer that we don't even realize today. I'm not sure what it's going to

[A]

be, but I'm guessing it's more fun for you to explore it as a kind of intellectual puzzle than the people who are really in trouble in the industry.

[D]

Right. I'll be accused of not having skin in the game. If I look at the 2015-2020 timeframe when people were building like crazy and putting barrels out, they were looking for that India market and the China market. There still may be a play there. Who knows? Tomorrow the tariffs may be gone. What I've been advising distill is don't invest a whole lot in infrastructure yet, but at least invest in some awareness. So if you're sitting on a bunch, I would explore where maybe you can slip into some countries versus a whole global market and find the way to play that out.

[A]

So I too am a fan or at least a kind of observer of creative destruction. And there are many, many, many examples through history where the incumbents are frustrated, angry sometimes. And what they don't understand is that there will be things created in the wake of that destruction that lead to even more jobs and different creativity and different products and goods and services and so on. In this case, I'm seeing the destruction. I'm not seeing the creative. What's the creative coming out of this?

[D]

That's a great question. Well, I think Sazerac's done a nice job jumping on the RTDs.

[A]

What's that?

[D]

RTDs the ready to Drinks. I'm sorry. Yeah. Sazerac has jumped on the RTDs and they've done a nice job. They purchased a business. It's growing 20, 25% right now. So if you're a distillery that has the bottling and canning equipment to do that, I think it'd be a reasonable thing to jump on. I think that'll peter out eventually. Where we're seeing the most success right now is the tourism aspect. Our tourism here for the Bourbon Trail is very, very popular. The organizations that have a plan to connect to that and into other lifestyle and luxury and events and things like that, I think that is an angle that you're going to see. The innovation on

[A]

the ready to drink business that Sazerac bought is called Buzzballs, Colorful canned cocktails that look a little bit like Christmas ornaments. You'll see them at house parties on the beach on TikTok. I asked Danny Kahn, the master distiller at Sazerac what he thinks of Sazerac's new property.

[F]

Buzz balls are extraordinarily popular. They're fun. They're a unique shape. They're brilliant colors. There's a tremendous market for them. They're growing internationally very, very aggressively. We have efforts to grow them in a lot of countries. They are not what the core bourbon geek wants, and that's a good thing because there are many different market segments. And I do not think we're in a position to say, this is bourbon, you will like it. The alcohol pie is not growing aggressively. So where are we not represented and where can we get involved? And that's some of the components or pieces behind Buzzballs. I will tell you that my youngest daughter, her friends think I'm a hero because I work for the company that makes and sells Buzzballs. And I take that credit and don't tell them the truth, that I have nothing to do with them.

[A]

And that concludes our brief guided tour through the economics of the bourbon industry. My thanks to Danny Kahn, Ken Trosky, Brad Patrick and Andrew Muhammad. Thanks also to Katya Zaim and to Brendan Simpson for the idea. I'd love to know what you think about the bourbon industry or about this episode. We're always trying to get better. Our email is radioeeconomics.com Coming up next time on the show. Are you sure that that squeeze bottle of honey in your cupboard is actually honey?

[C]

They're openly advertising designer syrups saying, mix this much with your honey to pass these certain tests to get into the United States.

[A]

And what about the bees? We heard about colony collapse disorder and thought this is catastrophic. And when we started to look at the data, there was no effect. The surprising economics of the honey industry. That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else do. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. It's [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Augusta Chapman and edited by Gabriel Roth. It was mixed by Eleanor Osborne with help from Joseph Webster. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Dalvin Abuaji, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Hilaria Montenacourt, Jeremy Johnston, Mandy Gorenstein, Peter Madden, Teo Jacobs and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening. I have to say, it sounds like you drink a lot.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[E]

The Freakonomics Radio Network.

[F]

The hidden side of everything.

[E]

Walmart Express Delivery can get what you need delivered in as fast as an hour. Whether it's baby formula, when you're down to the last scoop, pet food before the bowl runs empty, batteries for a dead remote or a last minute gift, it is handled. Try Walmart Express Delivery today and get free delivery with promo code. Express Promotion valid for First Express delivery order $50 minimum, subject to availability restrictions apply.