Freakonomics Radio: “Are Two C.E.O.s Better Than One? (Update)”
Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Episode Focus:
This episode revisits and updates an earlier investigation into the phenomenon of co-CEOs—organizations with two chief executives at the top. Host Stephen Dubner explores whether this controversial structure leads to better firm outcomes, drawing on research, real-world stories (both successes and failures), and expert opinions. The episode covers updated data, deep dives into famous co-CEO arrangements, and even looks to other domains—like software development—for insight into what pairs can accomplish.
1. Introduction: The Co-CEO Question
Theme:
- The growing—but still rare—trend of large companies appointing two CEOs.
- Listener Zach Levine prompts the key question: Do companies run by co-CEOs perform better than those run by solo CEOs? ([00:00]-[02:40])
Key Points:
- Dual CEO arrangements have surfaced at high-profile firms (Spotify, Oracle, Comcast).
- Today’s episode explores:
- Co-CEO performance vs. solo CEOs
- Stories of co-CEO partnerships, both functional and disastrous
- Academic perspectives on paired leadership
- Analogies from other domains (pair programming, partnerships)
2. Research & Case Studies: Are Co-CEOs Better for Business?
Mark Feigen’s Study and Perspective
([03:41]-[11:28])
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Mark Feigen, CEO advisor, studied 2,200 large public companies (1996-2020), finding only 95 instances of co-CEOs.
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Co-CEO firms delivered shareholder returns nearly 40% higher than solo-CEO firms.
- Quote (Mark Feigen, [05:59]): “If you were a hedge fund, and I said, Hey, I can give you a certainty of a 40% better total shareholder return. You'd be the biggest hedge fund in the world.”
-
Caveats: Not a peer-reviewed academic study; other variables may explain performance; not a prescription for all organizations.
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Main advantages of co-CEOs:
- Complementary skill sets
- Mutual coaching and “grounding”
- Checking each other's ego and risk-taking
- Power is truly shared only if the titles and responsibilities are officially equal
-
Co-CEO structures common at small/private firms (often “partners”) but rare in public companies—more media scrutiny, risk aversion at board/shareholder level.
The Disasters: When Co-CEOs Go Wrong
([12:27]-[13:11])
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Chipotle: Steve Ells and Monty Moran—E. coli crisis led to collapse of trust.
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BlackBerry (RIM): Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie—deep partnership unraveled under market disruption (rise of iPhone/Android), diverging strategic visions.
- Quote (Feigen, [13:11]): "When co-CEOs unwind, I mean, they can unwind horribly... Camps develop, indecisive, they spread rumors about the other. It can get ugly.”
3. Firsthand Co-CEO Experience: BlackBerry / RIM
Guest: Jim Balsillie, former co-CEO, Research In Motion (BlackBerry)
([14:03]-[23:48])
- Balsillie and Lazaridis paired complementary skills—engineering/product vs. finance/commercialization.
- True partnership: daily communication, shared offices, shared burdens.
- Memorable anecdote ([15:11]): “We had to flip a coin to decide who was going to take the difficult call... you gotta have some fun.”
- Downfall: Strategic irreconcilability amid technological upheaval (Apple and Google enter market).
- Balsillie: “I called it a suicide march and he considered my view heresy...” ([16:29])
- Quote (Balsillie, [18:05]): “Had we had the co-CEOs and the board said, you guys brought us here and you're going to figure out going forward… unless one of you says, uncle.”
- No bitterness in hindsight; deep respect for the partnership and its potential.
4. A Modern Success: Atlassian’s Co-CEOs
Guests: Mike Cannon-Brookes & Scott Farquhar, co-founders & former co-CEOs, Atlassian
([28:08]-[32:47])
- Met in university, started company together as equal partners; became one of Australia’s biggest tech firms.
- Quote (Farquhar, [29:49]): “One of the benefits of the co-CEO model is being able to take a break or change your responsibilities or get some sort of a refresh.”
- Divided responsibilities based on strength and interest: product/engineering vs. go-to-market (sales/marketing).
- “Superpower” of the model: compatibility, complementary (not identical) skills, and mutual trust.
- Survived tough times together (e.g., 2008-09 global financial crisis), making strong, aligned decisions.
- Quote (Farquhar, [32:02]): “Actually, if you have the right two people, it was not tense or friction filled. It was quite the opposite.”
- In 2024, Farquhar stepped down; share price dropped. Cited "fit" is critical; model isn’t universally applicable.
5. Skepticism & the Case for Solo CEOs
Guest: Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, Yale School of Management
([33:18]-[40:25])
- Argues against the co-CEO model:
- Leads to ambiguity, role confusion, public “unity of command” is clearer.
- True co-equality is rare—often used as retention, but not real power-sharing.
- Cites classic cases where co-leadership failed (Nordstrom, Microsoft pre-Nadella).
- Quote (Sonnenfeld, [37:59]): “Where it's been authentic... it was disastrous.”
- Compares business to other pairs (music, art, science), suggesting the “duo” is usually a myth—one drives, the other follows.
- Quote (Sonnenfeld, [39:14]): “Simon and Garfunkel were not Simon and Garfunkel, it was Simon and Garfunkel.”
6. Lessons from Other Domains: Pair Programming
Guest: Laurie Williams, NC State University
([43:41]-[47:48])
- Early proponent and researcher on "pair programming."
- Teams of two programmers produce higher-quality code, fewer errors, and are more satisfied.
- Debunked managerial notion that “two people = 2x cost” ([46:21])
- Quote (Williams, [46:21]): “If you took the typical time it would take to fix the defects, then the pairs would have done better. So from an economic standpoint, overall it was a positive picture.”
- Pairing led to wider acceptance in tech industry; perhaps paired leadership could spread if shown to work.
7. Best Practices for Prospective Co-CEOs
([26:44]-[28:00]; [48:00]-[50:34])
- Both participants must genuinely want to share power and responsibility.
- Quote (Feigen, [27:39]): “You need to sit down and say, okay, we're friends now, we're willing, but we're still going to disagree and disagreement is healthy, but how are we going to resolve those disagreements when mom and dad are fighting?”
- Clear division of labor helps, but overlap allows for coverage and understanding.
- Experience together before assuming the co-CEO roles (e.g., KKR's promotion of co-presidents to co-CEOs over time).
- Cultural fit, mutual respect, and agreed decision processes (from “scissors, paper, rock” to formal board tie-breakers) are essential.
8. Looking Ahead: Will the Trend Grow?
([49:17]-[50:34])
- Even skeptics allow that co-CEOs work well in private/smaller enterprises.
- In big public companies, fear of catastrophic “blow-up” likely keeps numbers low.
- Prediction: co-CEOs will remain rare, but if copycats see prominent successes, adoption could expand (maybe 25% within 30 years).
- Many companies functionally have CEO + President/COO pairs that operate much like “co-CEOs” behind the scenes.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Mark Feigen ([05:59]): “If you were a hedge fund, and I said, Hey, I can give you a certainty of a 40% better total shareholder return. You'd be the biggest hedge fund in the world.”
- Jim Balsillie ([15:11]): Telling the anecdote about flipping a coin for the tough call: “It's not always clear who gets the good stuff and who gets the bad.”
- Jeffrey Sonnenfeld ([39:14]): “Simon and Garfunkel were not Simon and Garfunkel, it was Simon and Garfunkel.”
- Laurie Williams ([46:21]): “If you took the typical time it would take to fix the defects, then the pairs would have done better. So from an economic standpoint, overall it was a positive picture.”
Key Timestamps for Important Segments
- [00:00] — Dubner introduces the co-CEO question and overall setup.
- [03:41] — Mark Feigen describes his research and initial skepticism.
- [13:11] — Co-CEO catastrophe stories: Chipotle and BlackBerry.
- [14:03] — Jim Balsillie on the highs and lows of co-leadership at BlackBerry.
- [28:08] — Atlassian’s Mike Cannon-Brookes and Scott Farquhar on their partnership.
- [33:18] — Jeffrey Sonnenfeld’s critique and preference for singular leadership.
- [43:41] — Laurie Williams on pair programming and its parallels.
- [48:00] — Best practices and future predictions for co-CEOs.
Final Takeaways
- Co-CEOs can excel—when the fit, skills, and incentives align, and they have a clear method of resolving disputes.
- The model is not for every company; solo CEO leadership persists for reasons both practical and cultural.
- Lessons from pair programming and startup partnerships suggest there’s unexploited value in collaboration at the very top—but also that successful pairs are the exception, not the rule.
- Listeners are invited to share their opinions.