How to Stop Worrying and Love the Robot Apocalypse (Update)

Summary

Freakonomics Radio: How to Stop Worrying and Love the Robot Apocalypse (Update) – Detailed Summary

Released on November 18, 2024

In this insightful bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner revisits a previously explored topic—the integration of robots into the workforce—with updated research and real-world applications. Titled "How to Stop Worrying and Love the Robot Apocalypse (Update)," the episode delves deep into the evolving relationship between humans and robots, particularly in the healthcare sector, and examines the broader economic implications.

---

Introduction: Revisiting the Future of Robots in the Workforce

Stephen Dubner opens the episode by referencing the 2021 discussion on robots in the workforce, specifically highlighting their use in Japanese nursing homes. The episode aims to provide an updated perspective by replaying the original content with new data and insights from recent studies.

---

David Autor: Insights from a Unique Path to Economics

David Autor, a prominent MIT labor economist, shares his unconventional journey to academia, which has profoundly influenced his research focus. Dropping out of Columbia University, working various jobs, and eventually earning a Ph.D. in public policy, Autor brings a pragmatic approach to economics.

Notable Quote:

"My work is very concrete. I'm not a high theorist. I'm very much driven by practical problems."
(02:46)

Autor discusses the widening gulf of inequality in the Information Age, questioning whether emerging technologies will exacerbate or mitigate this divide. Highlighting how productivity gains have primarily benefited the top earners, Autor underscores the stagnation of median wages despite rising productivity.

Notable Quote:

"No country has experienced the extremes of rising inequality that the United States has, and there's no evidence that the US has gained much from it."
(04:19)

---

The MIT Task Force on the Future of Work

In Spring 2018, Autor co-chaired the MIT Task Force on the Work of the Future, which studied the impact of robotics and automation on labor markets. The task force sought to address three critical questions:

1. Transformation of Human Work and Skills: Autor explains that technology simultaneously eliminates and creates jobs. While automation can render certain roles obsolete, it also fosters new specialties and services. For instance, the medical field has seen an expansion in specialties due to technological advancements.

   Notable Quote:

   "Technology is always eliminating work and creating work simultaneously."
   (09:29)

2. Shaping Technological Innovation to Augment Human Potential: Emphasizing the role of cobots (collaborative robots), Autor illustrates how technology can enhance human labor rather than replace it. For example, robots in healthcare can assist nurses by reducing physical strain, allowing them to focus more on patient care.

   Notable Quote:

   "If you were doing one of those things that all of a sudden a machine can do better than you, your opportunity set contracts."
   (11:33)

3. Ensuring Equality of Opportunity and Shared Prosperity: The task force recommends heavy investment in education, job training, improving job quality, and reforming tax incentives to favor labor over capital. Autor argues that government intervention is crucial in mitigating the adverse effects of technological disruption.

   Notable Quote:

   "The government actually can do a lot and that we in America tend to deride our government and assume it can't be effective."
   (45:45)

---

Real-World Application: Andrus on Hudson Nursing Home

James Rosenman, CEO of Andrus on Hudson Nursing Home in Westchester County, NY, provides a practical example of robot integration in healthcare. The facility utilizes telemedicine robots to enable remote physician consultations, thereby enhancing patient care without necessitating physical presence.

Notable Quote:

"This telemedicine robot doesn't look like much, or at least not like what you might think a robot should look like."
(17:10)

Rosenman discusses the challenges faced during the COVID-19 pandemic, which accelerated the adoption of telepresence robots to minimize face-to-face interactions and mitigate infection risks. Despite initial enthusiasm, the facility had to temporarily halt their robotic pets due to infection control protocols.

Notable Quote:

"The pandemic is the reason the robotic dogs and cats had to be sidelined."
(17:33)

---

Economic Impact and Labor Dynamics

Autor highlights the disparity in how different worker segments are affected by automation. Higher-skilled, higher-paid workers tend to reallocate successfully into new roles, while lower-skilled, lower-paid workers face unemployment or underemployment.

Notable Quote:

"Higher paid and more highly educated workers, they seem to reallocate successfully out of manufacturing into other jobs."
(07:12)

The episode also touches on the broader economic implications of automation, referencing a 2020 study by Acemoglu and Restrepo, which found that each industrial robot can displace up to six human workers. However, Autor emphasizes the importance of augmenting rather than replacing human labor to harness the full potential of technological advancements.

Notable Quote:

"We're going to have lots of people. The machines ultimately work for the people."
(15:16)

---

Japanese Nursing Homes: A Case Study in Robotics Adoption

Economist Karen Eggleston from Stanford explores the proactive adoption of robots in Japanese nursing homes, driven by demographic challenges such as an aging population and labor shortages. Japan's substantial investment in robotics, supported by government subsidies, contrasts with the slower adoption rates in the United States.

Notable Quote:

"Robot adoption is strongly correlated with having a much larger nursing home. And it appears to be a causal impact that adopting robots is associated with more care workers rather than fewer."
(34:00)

Eggleston and her colleagues conducted a study analyzing data from 860 Japanese nursing homes, discovering that robots often complement human workers by reducing physical strain and increasing job satisfaction, rather than replacing staff. This collaboration leads to lower employee turnover and improved patient outcomes.

Notable Quote:

"Robots have the potential to enhance quality of care while augmenting care workers so they can focus more on human touch care and less on the back pain inducing physical tasks."
(34:45)

---

Policy Recommendations and the Path Forward

Autor and Eggleston advocate for comprehensive policy measures to ensure that the benefits of automation are widely shared. Key recommendations include:

• Investment in Education and Job Training: Equipping the workforce with the necessary skills to collaborate with advanced technologies.
• Improving Job Quality: Implementing higher minimum wages and labor protections to enhance job satisfaction and retention.
• Reforming Tax Incentives: Shifting incentives to favor labor investments over capital to promote equitable economic growth.

Notable Quote:

"We need to be investing in young people and everyone else to enable them to be lifelong learners and to be adaptable."
(43:43)

Autor remains optimistic, emphasizing that while technological advancements pose significant challenges, they also offer opportunities for societal enrichment and enhanced quality of life. However, realizing this potential hinges on proactive policy interventions and societal willingness to adapt.

Notable Quote:

"The technology is spectacular and it's going to have momentous impacts, but they're unfolding gradually."
(47:21)

---

Conclusion: A Collaborative Future with Robots

The episode concludes by reinforcing the concept that robots and humans can coexist harmoniously, with technology serving to augment human capabilities rather than supplant them. As evidenced by Andrus on Hudson and Japanese nursing homes, thoughtful integration of robots can lead to improved labor conditions and better outcomes for both workers and those they care for.

Notable Quote:

"There really is a potential for technology to make our lives better. But I'm not of that opinion that it's going to automatically happen."
(44:21)

Stephen Dubner wraps up by highlighting ongoing developments and studies, underscoring that the journey toward a balanced human-robot workforce is ongoing and requires continuous adaptation and policy support.

---

Key Takeaways

• Robots as Collaborators: Properly integrated robots can enhance human labor, reduce physical strain, and improve job satisfaction without displacing workers.
• Economic Implications: While automation can lead to significant productivity gains, it also presents challenges in income distribution and job displacement, particularly for lower-skilled workers.
• Policy Intervention: Strategic investments in education, job training, and labor protections are essential to harness the benefits of automation while mitigating its drawbacks.
• Global Perspectives: Countries like Japan exemplify proactive robotics adoption, driven by demographic needs and supported by government policies, offering valuable lessons for other nations.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Autor at [02:46]: "My work is very concrete. I'm not a high theorist. I'm very much driven by practical problems."
• David Autor at [04:19]: "No country has experienced the extremes of rising inequality that the United States has, and there's no evidence that the US has gained much from it."
• David Autor at [09:29]: "Technology is always eliminating work and creating work simultaneously."
• James Rosenman at [17:10]: "This telemedicine robot doesn't look like much, or at least not like what you might think a robot should look like."
• Karen Eggleston at [34:00]: "What we find is that robot adoption is strongly correlated with having a much larger nursing home. And it appears to be a causal impact that adopting robots is associated with more care workers rather than fewer."
• David Autor at [15:16]: "We're going to have lots of people. The machines ultimately work for the people."
• Karen Eggleston at [34:45]: "Robots have the potential to enhance quality of care while augmenting care workers so they can focus more on human touch care and less on the back pain inducing physical tasks."
• David Autor at [45:45]: "The government actually can do a lot and that we in America tend to deride our government and assume it can't be effective."
• Karen Eggleston at [43:43]: "We need to be investing in young people and everyone else to enable them to be lifelong learners and to be adaptable."
• David Autor at [47:21]: "The technology is spectacular and it's going to have momentous impacts, but they're unfolding gradually."
• Karen Eggleston at [44:21]: "There really is a potential for technology to make our lives better. But I'm not of that opinion that it's going to automatically happen."

---

This comprehensive update presents a balanced view of the evolving dynamics between human labor and robotics. By highlighting both challenges and opportunities, Freakonomics Radio encourages listeners to rethink their fears about automation and recognize the potential for technology to enrich human lives when thoughtfully integrated.

Transcript

[Carl's Jr. Advertiser]

The kind of burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad same old same old burgers or you're Edit Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger demanding a house made guacamole, loaded guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic Charbold Famous star. Give in to your flavored cravings. Do your mouth to Carl's Jr Big Burger good Burger.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's better over here at and T customers Switching to T Mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrier freedom to switch today. Pay off up to 650 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days.

[David Autor]

Free phone up to 830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax qualifying port and trade and service on go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner and this is a bonus episode of Freakonomics radio. In 2021, we put out an episode about the future of robots in the workforce. It featured a couple economists who had been studying how robots, or cobots for collaborative robots, were being used in Japanese nursing homes. Those same economists recently put out a follow up paper, so we thought we'd replay the original episode with updated facts and figures and then hear about the new research findings. We've also got some robot news from an American nursing home. So here is the updated episode. It's called how to Stop Worrying and Love the Robot Apocalypse. We might as well start with an economist.

[David Autor]

No, no, I'm not even a real economist. I just play one at mit.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's David Autor. He is a real economist. He's been on the show a few times before. His path to economics professor was indirect.

[David Autor]

I started as an undergraduate at Columbia. I dropped out after three semesters. I worked, I rode a motorcycle. I went back and completed my undergraduate degree at Tufts a couple years later. I studied psychology with a concentration in Computer science and I really didn't know what to do with myself.

[Stephen Dubner]

So he did some temping, he did construction, he worked at McDonald's. Then he went back to school again and got a PhD in public policy. So not the typical path for a labor economist at mit. And that real world experience is reflected in David Otter's work.

[David Autor]

My work is very concrete. I'M not a high theorist. I'm very much driven by practical problems. A lot of the questions I studied are related to the things I worked on and saw firsthand. Working in poor communities, working in places undergoing political upheaval. Watching the gulf of inequality expand in the Information Age.

[Stephen Dubner]

Watching the gulf of inequality expand in the Information Age. Yes, that does sound like a transformative idea. And it leads to a large Will new technologies make that inequality gulf bigger or smaller? You could see it going either way, right? On the one hand, technology democratizes. Many of us are now rich enough to afford what is essentially a butler. Amazon.com for instance, will bring you whatever you'd like quite quickly at the push of a button. On the other hand, much of the wealth produced by this kind of technology flows way up to the tippity top of the income ladder. So who are the winners and who are the losers when there is such a transformative shift in the global economy? Think about one of the last big shifts we lived through. The massive expansion of global trade, during which the US intentionally sent millions of jobs to China. We actually had David Otter on the show a few years back to talk about that. Episode number 274, if you want to listen. It's called Did China Eat America's Jobs? So Otter has done a lot of thinking about these issues.

[David Autor]

No country has experienced the extremes of rising inequality that the United States has, and there's no evidence that the US has gained much from it. We haven't grown faster than other countries. We don't have higher labor force participation rates. We don't have higher social mobility of people going from rags to riches.

[Stephen Dubner]

If you wanted a SparkNotes version of the US economy over the past few decades, it would be this rising productivity, though not as fast a rise as the post war era and stagnant median wages, with the productivity gains largely benefiting the top of the income distribution.

[David Autor]

Yeah, it's just incredibly skewed. And so as far as we can measure it, the median is barely budging.

[Stephen Dubner]

And now after all that, it's time to consider another very, very large disruption. Because you know that robot future you've been hearing about? Open the pod bay doors, Hal. I'm sorry, Dave.

[James Rosenman]

I'm afraid I can't do that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, well, the future got here yesterday.

[James Rosenman]

Good to see you again. I like your shirt.

[David Autor]

Thank you.

[James Rosenman]

So tell me, how you feeling today?

[David Autor]

I'm feeling pretty good.

[Stephen Dubner]

You're welcome. This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner. In the spring of 2018, David Otter was asked to co chair an MIT task force called the Work of the Future. It included researchers from a variety of disciplines, economics, engineering, political science, anthropology even. The mission was to explore how new technologies like robotics and automation will affect labor markets, especially whether certain groups of workers would be left behind. Keep in mind that this sort of prediction is really hard, as evidenced by the predictions that economists made about globalization. They predicted that when the US offshored manufacturing jobs to China, that Americans who worked in manufacturing would be made better off since they'd theoretically be reallocated into better jobs. But as David Otter told us in that earlier episode, this didn't happen.

[David Autor]

Some people are leaving the labor market, some people are going into unemployment, some people are going on to disability. And so the reallocation process seems to be slow, frictional and scarring. The real differentiator is the skill level of the worker. So higher paid and more highly educated workers, they seem to reallocate successfully out of manufacturing into other jobs.

[Stephen Dubner]

So the HR person at a big textile firm gets an HR job elsewhere, and the manufacturers on the line are probably not.

[David Autor]

And the line workers are much less likely to do so. Exactly.

[Stephen Dubner]

So considering the difficulty of making predictions about the future of work, the MIT task force started with one thing they were pretty sure about.

[David Autor]

The one thing we were confident in was that the US would keep generating lots of low wage jobs.

[Stephen Dubner]

Too many even.

[David Autor]

Yes, well actually too many is better than too few. When there's too many, at least they're competing hard for workers. When there are too few workers are competing for them and that means those jobs will get worse. And so the one positive thing you could say about the US workforce, well, we had a lot of crappy jobs.

[Stephen Dubner]

When we spoke with Autor for this episode. Originally, the US was still recovering from the COVID 19 recession. And what kind of damage did that recession do in the short run?

[David Autor]

It's just done enormous damage to most of the in person service jobs. The ones that were absolutely necessary, like in grocery stores and healthcare, have persisted, but many of the jobs in retail, in restaurants and hospitality have not.

[Stephen Dubner]

A lot of those jobs paid only the minimum wage. And they did come back after the recession. But other changes were more permanent.

[David Autor]

I actually think the biggest change, and it's most obvious, is telepresence, that we are just doing more things remotely. We've kind of broken the space time barrier in that we can't be in two places at once, but we can get to any two places instantly.

[Stephen Dubner]

But with lockdowns and Covid precautions. Some jobs simply couldn't be done remotely. During the pandemic, business travel dropped massively, and that had all kinds of downstream labor effects.

[David Autor]

It's not just airplanes, right? It's Ubers and limos. It's expensive hotels that, you know, people pay full freight on weeknights and then go out to marquee restaurants and then go have their shoes shine and dry cleaners. And so I think that's the real challenge.

[Stephen Dubner]

The work of the future task force took the pandemic into account as best as they could. They published their report in December 2021. It tried to answer three main questions. The first one, how are emerging technologies transforming the nature of human work and the set of skills that enable humans to thrive in the digital economy?

[David Autor]

You know, technology is always eliminating work and creating work simultaneously. We tend to focus on what is automated away, and that's completely reasonable. Simultaneously, new areas of expertise, new luxuries, new services, new demands are constantly being created. And that process, that kind of turnover, is highly productive.

[Stephen Dubner]

Consider, for instance, how medicine is practiced these days.

[David Autor]

There's hundreds of medical specialties way, way more than there used to be. And it's not because doctors have become narrower and narrower and they know less and less. It's that they know more and more in depth rather than bread. Right? The extent of expertise required is just extraordinary. And humans have finite capacity. Where did all that need for expertise come from? Well, it came from research and technology and so on. So often we're broadening expertise. But it's not just in the high tech professions. You will find patents emerging for new ways of hardening nails, fingernails, I mean, not the nails you pound into wood. Patents for solar voltaic electricians, people who install solar cells. You know, there's a lot of skilled work that's done hands on. Being an electrician, being a plumber, building a home or repairing an engine. And much of that work requires a combination of dexterity and flexibility in problem solving and also knowledge, knowledge on demand. A lot of people today consult YouTube when they want to learn how to sweat a pipe. We can augment people's capability to do that work by giving them VR tools, giving them information on demand. People could be much more effective in that work and more productive and therefore paid more if they were augmented in these ways. And so you can see in those examples how you could use the technology to not make people less necessary, but to make them more effective.

[Stephen Dubner]

That said, not every profession benefits from this kind of tech augmentation.

[David Autor]

If you were Doing one of those things that all of a sudden a machine can do better than you, your opportunity set contracts. And usually the people who are on the one end of that, seeing their work disappear, are not the same people who are new opportunities.

[Stephen Dubner]

We saw this vividly when the US offshored manufacturing jobs, and we're seeing it now in other sectors.

[David Autor]

For the people who have been working in clerical jobs or many production jobs, what automation has done is made their work unnecessary.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's tempting to think that automation will replace only the simpler jobs that don't require heavy cognitive input, but that's not the case. Ottor has seen this for himself at some of the firms he's visited.

[David Autor]

One of them was a big insurance company. And they do an enormous amount of claims adjudication, claims assessment, and they have these floors of, I guess you'd call them forensic accountants. And they go through a lot of material looking for anomalies, looking for fraud, looking for overpayment, and so on.

[Stephen Dubner]

It is true that forensic accounting requires a high level of expertise, but combing through these files in search of anomalies is also a tedious task.

[David Autor]

And the automation has really accelerated that discovery work. Machines can actually do reasonably well with this, and simultaneously, they never run out of attention, they never run out of energy.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's say machine learning and artificial intelligence can be used to find these anomalies. Does that mean that the people who used to find the anomalies are out of work or they have a different style of work, a different amount of work?

[David Autor]

So definitely the total headcount of people who need to do this work is shrinking now. They're mostly not firing people, but they slow down hiring. The work. I think that remains is quite interesting. There's less tedium and more action, but it does ultimately mean, I think, reduction in the number of people doing that work.

[Stephen Dubner]

The automating of work is itself big business, and it's something we've heard a lot about since we first made this episode in 2021. To give you an example of how Big Nvidia, the leading supplier of hardware and software for artificial intelligence, is now the most valuable publicly traded company in the world. If you are the kind of person who hears this and shudders at the thought that technology is destroying our way of life, well, there is a long history of such thought. Aristotle had the same concern. And in ancient Rome, some technologies were outlawed because of the expected job loss. In the most recent century, if you've ever watched a movie, you have likely come across at least one fever dream of technology run amok. It's alive.

[Karen Eggleston]

It's alive.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's alive. It's alive. And fears of a robot apocalypse. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self aware at 2:14am Eastern Time, August 29th.

[Carl's Jr. Advertiser]

We don't know who struck first, us or them.

[Stephen Dubner]

But if the overall goal is to make good policy and economic decisions about our collective future, we probably shouldn't base that policy on movie plots. As history has shown again and again and again, the fear of new technologies tends to be overstated. And the gains from technology make most people better off. But maybe you're thinking maybe, maybe this time is different. In the old days when the automobile replaced the horse and carriage, if you lost your job as a carriage maker or a stable hand, you could probably find work in an auto plant. What about today? A 2020 paper by the economists Theron Acemoglu and Pasquale Restrepo found that a single industrial robot will typically reduce employment by as many as six human workers. Here's David Autor again.

[David Autor]

And you know, I can understand why companies would do that. Makes a lot of sense. Labor's a cost. No one hires workers for the fun of hiring workers. They hire workers because they need things done. If they could have machines that did it without complaining and cost less, that's what they would do. But we have a public interest in something more than that. We're going to have lots of people. The machines ultimately work for the people. We want to augment the people. And there are many highly valuable social problems that could use automation, could use investment. And we underinvest in, for example, healthcare.

[Stephen Dubner]

Consider this healthcare checkup.

[David Autor]

I have Dr. Samuelsi. He's going to be evaluating you today.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay?

[David Autor]

Okay.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hello, my dear.

[James Rosenman]

How are you?

[David Autor]

Hi. I'm okay.

[James Rosenman]

How are you? Good to see you again. I like your shirt. So tell me, how you feeling today?

[David Autor]

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good. No complaints today. Really.

[Stephen Dubner]

Abiola Famelusi is a doctor who works with a nursing home in Westchester county just outside of New York City. It is called Andrus on Hudson. Can you open your mouth for me?

[James Rosenman]

Okay, good.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you lift both hands up for me? Lift your arms up for me.

[James Rosenman]

Both of them. Excellent.

[Stephen Dubner]

But here's the thing. Dr. Famelusi isn't at the nursing home today. He is examining the patient remotely.

[James Rosenman]

Yeah, we are in our infancy of adopting certain robots.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is James Rosenman. He's the CEO of Andrus on Hudson.

[James Rosenman]

We have two robots, one for the purposes of telemedicine. So that physicians can go into patient rooms with the assistance of a nurse when they can't be physically available on site.

[Stephen Dubner]

This telemedicine robot doesn't look like much, or at least not like what you might think a robot should look like.

[James Rosenman]

Yeah, like an iPad that is on a base that has wheels that can move to various areas. And we also have another robot that is a social robot to visit certain residents that may be less able to get up and walk around.

[Stephen Dubner]

I understand you had eight robotic dogs and 11 robotic cats. Did you have to pull them then because of COVID concerns?

[James Rosenman]

They've been put in the kennel for a little while. The problem with the robots in the environment we're in right now is that you can't have them just roaming about. So infection control has added this other layer of complexity to robotics.

[Stephen Dubner]

So the pandemic is the reason the robotic dogs and cats had to be sidelined. But the pandemic was also the reason that Andrus got the telemedicine robot. Nursing homes were a hot zone for Covid transmission. So Rosenman wanted to minimize face to face contact. Are you pretty typical as far as a nursing facility with the amount of robots you have? Are you at the leading edge or are you lagging?

[James Rosenman]

It's hard to know where we stand in comparison to other providers because this isn't a topic that comes up very often. But we do know that a lot of the people that we talk to don't utilize those in their facilities.

[Stephen Dubner]

Also, James Rosenman is a self proclaimed robot nerd.

[James Rosenman]

I think I watched Short Circuit when I was little. The movie.

[David Autor]

Oh, I get it.

[James Rosenman]

Johnny 5 was a big one inspiration for me.

[Stephen Dubner]

But there are other non pandemic reasons that a nursing home or hospital might want to use robots.

[James Rosenman]

Yeah, we work very hard on staff retention and we do have a good retention rate. But we also have people, you know, they retire. We would love them to work there forever and ever. And I'd love to clone people, but we can't, you know, and maybe that's for another show, but we have a labor shortage in the market of nurses and of CNAs.

[Stephen Dubner]

A CNA is a certified nursing assistant. In the US today, there are roughly 4 million RNs or registered nurses. A study in the American Journal of Medical Quality found that by 2030 there will be a shortage of half a million RNs. A subsequent study by the national center for Health Workforce Analysis projects a smaller gap, but still a gap. This gap is driven by both demand. We have a large population of elderly and Sick people and supply. There are more nurses aging out of the workforce than entering it.

[James Rosenman]

I've continued to see this labor shortage get worse and worse.

[Stephen Dubner]

How hard is it for you to hire already?

[James Rosenman]

It's incredibly difficult. It is a very difficult and demanding job. There is a critical shortage of those individuals.

[Stephen Dubner]

Andrus has about 190 residents and nearly 250 employees, not counting the robots. The typical resident is over 70 and has a variety of conditions.

[James Rosenman]

Respiratory conditions, COPD, general chronic respiratory failure, congestive heart failure, cancer.

[Stephen Dubner]

The nursing assistants manage a lot of the moment by moment care. Their wages start at $23 an hour. Registered nurses at Andrus earn around 40 to $50 an hour. $50 an hour works out to around $100,000 a year. And what did these robots cost?

[James Rosenman]

It was $4,000 for one of the robots that we are using for socialization and then for the medical robot we lease that we pay about $2,000 a month because it has all of the equipment.

[Stephen Dubner]

Equipment meaning like EKG possibility?

[James Rosenman]

Exactly. With the telemedicine robot, one of the key components is not just that the clinician can look at the patient and assess them, but it has an array of tools connected with it. So you have what they call smart stethoscope, so that directly feeds into what the physician can see on their end. You know, an EKG on site and an ultrasound is something that we're looking on. Adding your pulse rate is very good.

[Karen Eggleston]

Good, yeah.

[David Autor]

Oxygen saturation is 98%.

[Stephen Dubner]

James Rosenman says the robots have increased productivity at the nursing home and better yet, they've helped improve patient outcomes.

[James Rosenman]

You know, one area that is always of concern, individuals who come to us for short term rehabilitation and then something happens medically with them, then we have to send them back out to the hospital. It's called a readmission. And so we realize that by adding the robot and having faster access to clinicians to be able to view something in real time, assess it, we were able to fairly significantly reduce readmission rates to the hospital just through that alone.

[Stephen Dubner]

For David Otter, the MIT labor economist, these nursing home robots can help answer the second question that his work of the Future task force asked. How can we shape and catalyze technological innovation to complement and augment human potential?

[David Autor]

You could introduce so much technology into healthcare without reducing employment and yet expanding the quality of care and the quantity of care. And of course, you'll need tons and tons of people to actually do the hands on care work.

[Stephen Dubner]

But is that reading of the situation too optimistic? Coming up after the Break a fascinating new study about Japanese nursing homes.

[Karen Eggleston]

What we're really worried about are the lower workers that might be completely replaced.

[Stephen Dubner]

And why is the Andrus nursing home an outlier? Why is the US a laggard when it comes to healthcare?

[James Rosenman]

Robots sort of hard to understand.

[Stephen Dubner]

And if you like what you're hearing on Freakonomics Radio today, why don't you give us a rating or write a review on your podcast app? We'll be right back with robots and Kobots.

[Carl's Jr. Advertiser]

The kind of burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad same old same old burgers, or you're at a Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger demanding a house made guacamole. Lodi Guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo. We're craving a classic charmer world famous star. Give in to your flavor cravings. Dear mouth the Carl's Jr.

[Stephen Dubner]

Good Burger. It's better over here ATT customers switching to T Mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrierfreedom to switch today. Pay off up to $650 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days.

[David Autor]

Free phone up to $830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax qualifying port in trade and service on go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's your boldest, truly ambitious life goal?

[David Autor]

Everyone has one and everyone deserves a.

[Karen Eggleston]

Way to get there.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's why State street offers a wide variety of ETFs to give all investors access to the market and the chance to reach their goals. Like with DIA, where you get 30 US blue chip stocks in a single trade wherever you're heading, getting there starts.

[David Autor]

Here with State Street. Before investing, consider the fund's investment objectives.

[James Rosenman]

Risks, charges and expenses.

[Stephen Dubner]

Visit ssga.com for perspectives containing this and other information. Read it carefully. DIA Subject to risk similar to those of stocks, all ATs are subject to risk, including possible loss of principle.

[David Autor]

ALPS Distributors, Inc.

[Stephen Dubner]

Distributor welcome back. Today we are playing an update of an episode we originally recorded in 2021. The MIT labor economist David Otter was co chair of a task force on the future of work, specifically how the US Workforce is integrating and adapting to new technologies. The task force found that the US Is not nearly as adept as one might hope in this regard. Here's what they wrote in their final report. Institutional changes and policy choices failed to blunt and in some cases magnified the consequences of these pressures on the US labor market. So, David, of all the rich countries in the world, how would you rank the US in terms of successfully adapting to the future of work? And assuming that we are not in, let's say, the 90th percentile or above, why are we trailing?

[David Autor]

I would put the US Maybe at the bottom of the top dozen. On the plus side, let's give the US a little bit of credit. It's incredibly creative and entrepreneurial. A lot of the technologies originate here. Right. But in terms of dealing with the consequences as opposed to the opportunities, that's where we have been extremely poor. Low wage workers in Canada make 25% more per hour than low wage workers in the United States. It's hard to believe that Canadian workers are actually 25% more productive per hour at McDonald's than US workers. That seems very unlikely.

[Stephen Dubner]

How are those wages so much higher in Canada?

[David Autor]

There are minimum wages and then there are just norms about what is acceptable. And the US has kind of thrown away those norms to a substantial extent. We've convinced ourselves that those norms are the problem, not the solution.

[Stephen Dubner]

Aside from those norms, there's also the fear that new technologies will destroy more good jobs than they create, or at least that the productivity trade off won't be worth it. But not all countries feel that way, especially when it comes to robots.

[Karen Eggleston]

I think a lot of people just weren't aware that Japan's been subsidizing robot adoption since 2015.

[Stephen Dubner]

Karen Eggleston is an economist at Stanford.

[Karen Eggleston]

It's beautiful. You can hear the birds chirping.

[Stephen Dubner]

A lot of Eggleston's research looks at healthcare and technology in Asia. Why that focus?

[Karen Eggleston]

Well, Asia is a very important part of the world and a part of the global economy. I also have family connections to Asia.

[Stephen Dubner]

When you look at the countries with the highest per capita share of robots in the workforce, Asia is well represented. Number one, by a long shot is South Korea. Singapore is number two and Japan is number four. Germany is third. Most of these are industrial robots used in the production of electronics and automobiles. The countries with a lot of robots tend to be high wage countries, which makes sense since higher wages create more incentives to replace human workers. The exception is China, which is now at number five, even though labor there is relatively cheap, at least for now. When it comes to Japan, Karen Eggleston says that robots have been Embraced for several reasons.

[Karen Eggleston]

First of all, we know Japan is a very developed economy and invests a lot in many kinds of new technologies, from so so technologies to brilliant technologies. So investing in robots was natural in that context.

[Stephen Dubner]

A so so technology is, economists speak, for something that just doesn't perform very well, especially when it's new. Think of automated phone services and self checkouts in grocery stores.

[Karen Eggleston]

Second, and more related to what I usually study is that the population age structure in Japan is such that it's leading the world in the demographic transition and so therefore has an overall declining population and a declining working age population.

[Stephen Dubner]

Japan, in fact, has the oldest population in the world.

[Karen Eggleston]

So you have an increasing demand for long term care and a declining supply of workers to staff that long term care.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is the same dynamic that James Rosenman of the Andrus Nursing Home told us about, but it's even more pronounced in Japan. A lot of countries ease the burden of an aging population by importing labor.

[Karen Eggleston]

But as many people know, Japan is less welcoming of immigrant labor than many other countries in the world and has actually had a longstanding acceptance of robots.

[Stephen Dubner]

I feel like I read that a few years ago, Japan had finally started to loosen up some of the immigration. Is that right?

[Karen Eggleston]

Japan does continue to loosen immigration. So it's certainly not a black or white thing, but it's just relative to many other countries where the labor market conditions might be different.

[Stephen Dubner]

In other words, Japan might have opted for more immigrant labor to help care for its aging population, but instead it invested heavily in robots.

[Karen Eggleston]

So they don't all look like R2D2 or C3PO, but they have functionality that enables them to take actions based on what they're monitoring. And a cobot is a term that's developed for robots that work alongside humans.

[Stephen Dubner]

Cobot, as in a collaborative robot. It is a very different machine than the kind of robots used in something like auto manufacturing, correct?

[Karen Eggleston]

Yeah, those robots can kind of swing their arms without worrying that they're going to knock over a human and damage them.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then a cobot is defined as necessarily working alongside humans, is that right?

[Karen Eggleston]

That's the idea, is that they can work alongside. They're not only aware physically of the human's presence, but they can productively interact with the human.

[Stephen Dubner]

In Japanese nursing homes, there are a variety of cobots designed to accomplish a variety of tasks. One type, for instance, is designed to monitor patients.

[Karen Eggleston]

So these can help both the caregivers and the people themselves to avoid falls, particularly if they roll out of bed at night or they get up and then trip on something.

[Stephen Dubner]

There are also cobots to help the nursing home staff move their patients.

[Karen Eggleston]

They have these big robots with big arms that help to pick people up. Others that actually are worn by the caregiver really need to strap onto the body when they're trying to move someone from the bed to a chair or back again. So they're not shaped like a human, but to fit onto a human body. And these robots are trying to address the issue of back pain that caregivers often experience and leads to turnover and therefore poor outcomes for long term care. Other robots help with other activities of the individual, such as being able to move directly themselves and to function independently to help with taking a bath or walking around.

[Stephen Dubner]

So unlike the typical robot, a cobot is designed to complement human labor rather than replace it. That at least is the theory. Karen Eggleston, being an economist, wanted to test this theory. She and two colleagues, Yong Li and Toshiaki Eizuka, set out to gather and analyze data from 860 nursing homes in Japan.

[Karen Eggleston]

We focused on nursing homes partly because that's where this population aging question is really most manifest and also because the huge debate about technologies is yes, we know that surgeons jobs will be affected by technology, but what we're really worried about are the lower skilled workers that might be completely replaced. A lot of the research in manufacturing has shown that to be certainly a worry that has foundation.

[Stephen Dubner]

Eggleston and her co authors were able to collect a variety of data for this study. First, wage and employment data from these nursing homes. This included whether a given employee was a so called regular worker, which was usually a full time position and paid fairly well, or a lower paid non regular, meaning a part time or flex worker. The researchers also measured the degree of cobot adoption in a given nursing home. But they needed to introduce a random variable to prove causality between the adoption of robots and the effects on staffing. Luckily for them, different prefectures across Japan subsidize cobots at different rates, some as high as 50%. This variation in subsidies gave the researchers a nice natural experiment.

[Karen Eggleston]

And we use the variation in those subsidies to help figure out which way the causality arrow goes.

[Stephen Dubner]

Eggleston and her colleagues have written a working paper called Robots and Labor in the Service Evidence from Nursing Homes. What'd they find?

[Karen Eggleston]

What we find is that robot adoption is strongly correlated with having a much larger nursing home. And it appears to be a causal impact that adopting robots is associated with more care workers rather than fewer. But these additional care workers are the non regular Type on more flexible contracts.

[Stephen Dubner]

So that sounds as if it could mean that robots are bad for the upper end of that employment spectrum. Considering that this is relatively low paid work anyway, it sounds like it would promote more human workers, but at a lower wage. Is that about right?

[Karen Eggleston]

Well, yes, it is possible. Although we also know that the most commonly adopted robot is the monitoring robots we were talking about and they are helping to reduce the long night shifts that nurses and care workers have to do. So we think that part of the effect is that the workers have a reduced burden of care. And yes, we do find a lower wage of a modest amount for the regular nurses, but if the case is that they have shorter work days, then it's not clear that that's actually a welfare loss.

[Stephen Dubner]

When I first read your paper, the sort of sunny headline that I wrote in my head was, we thought robots were the enemy of workers and now it looks like they are best friends. That's a little bit too sunny, isn't it?

[Karen Eggleston]

Yeah, I think it is a little sunny. Although it is a little bit surprising. And depending on how they're adapted, this automation, yes, it will replace some of the tasks that care workers do. But the ones that do end up staying in this profession, maybe they will have more support, less back pain, have the education to work alongside robots, and may find that a more enjoyable experience as well as better for the people they serve. A lot of the workforce feels burned out, not necessarily because they don't like doing what they do, but they don't like doing all that pain and all that other stuff. And they want to interact one on one with the people they care for. And cobots, if they work properly, will enable that. Humans have these qualities of being very dexterous and being able to care directly to the patient and communicate and have compassion with them.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what's next for our relationship with the robots? That's coming up. I'm Stephen Dubner. You are listening to Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by NetSuite. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get ten answers. Bull market. Bear market rates will rise or fall. Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one Cloud ERP. Bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you are peering into the future with actionable data. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com freak the guide is free to you at netsuite.com freak netsuite.com freak.

[Carl's Jr. Advertiser]

The kind of burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad same old same old burgers, or you're Etta Carl's Jr. Obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger demanding a house made guacamole, loaded guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic Charbold Famous Star. Give in to your flavor cravings. Do your mouth to Carl's Jr Big Burger good Burger it's better over here.

[Stephen Dubner]

After investing billions to light up our network, T Mobile is America's largest 5G network. Plus right now you can switch keep your phone and we'll pay it off up to $800. See how you can save on every plan versus Verizon and at and [e-mail] KeepAndSwitch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service ported 90 plus days with device.

[David Autor]

Ineligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Stephen Dubner]

You could argue that healthcare is the ideal scenario for the blending of human and robot labor. There are countless tasks and procedures where technology can plainly be helpful, but the human appetite for compassion also seems boundless. And for now at least, humans are better at compassion. You could see cobots helping mightily not just in hospitals and nursing homes, but in at home care as well. A recent study from the Journal of the American Medical association found that some 5 million older adults in the US need help with bathing or using the bathroom. In Japan and elsewhere in Asia and also in Europe, it is increasingly possible for a robot to assist with such tasks. That's not just because robots have been subsidized, they've also been deregulated.

[James Rosenman]

In the United States, we don't have access to a lot of these types of robots.

[Stephen Dubner]

That again, is James Rosenman, CEO of the Andress on Hudson Nursing Home. And why don't we have more access to these types of robots?

[James Rosenman]

It's a good question. When I look at a lot of these things or I'll find something, my eyes will get huge. You know, I'll do some research and late at night and then I find out, you know, it's only available in, you know, Japan or in the eu actually in many, many markets. And the glimmer goes out my eye because I know that we can't legally import that to the United States. The other day I was just looking at, for example, to reduce the incidence of individuals developing pressure ulcers for people who are more bed bound. The current thinking is that you rotate people so that you can increase blood flow and reduce pressure on one given part of the body. So the idea that I was thinking about was maybe there are beds beyond just the mattresses that are pressure relieving. A robotic bed that literally move people. Right now that's being done by humans. It's not available in the United States.

[Stephen Dubner]

So is it regulation that's preventing this right now? And if so, what kind of regulation? Is it technical regulation, is it medical regulation, et cetera?

[James Rosenman]

Sort of hard to understand. I think that some of it is like a pie chart, if you will, of different reasons. I don't think there's one sort of smoking gun or people in the back room that are saying, all right, let's not get these things rolled out because it goes against our interests. It's just very fragmented. And so you have these different regulatory authorities. You have, who's going to pay for it, how is it going to be used? You can have it approved, but then you have, how is it used in practical terms on site? I think that first and foremost there need to be more pilots studies, models. There are pilots going on every day. Medicare funds those, or they're funded by other agencies of the federal government. But there haven't been a lot of pilots that include robotics in our settings.

[Stephen Dubner]

So if you're thinking big picture about the future of work, one of the most compelling questions is the degree to which robotics will complement human labor versus replace it. One example that I've encountered is in a construction company that is Yong Li, one of Karen Eggleston's co authors on the Japanese nursing home paper. He is an economist at Notre Dame. They initially created robots so that they could replace workers, for instance, digging out certain parts of the land and lay the foundation. But they needed people who had years of experience, more than 10 or 20 years of experience, and it was just difficult to find that labor anymore. So what they decided to do is to create a robot where an individual with maybe only only one year of experience could operate a machine that could perform the task that a skilled laborer with 20 years of experience could perform. So in this sense, they were designing a robot not to replace the skilled individual, but actually to augment an individual with less skill in another study, Lee looked at robots in the manufacturing sector, a study that covered 11 years there too. He found that robots at first were replacing workers, but later, as the technology matured, the robots became more collaborative. Robots 10 years ago that did voting and robots 10 years later will likely be different. So how do economists see this relationship unfolding between human workers and smart machines? How can that relationship be optimized? Karen Eggleston, Again, it won't surprise you.

[Karen Eggleston]

To know as an educator and a researcher that I believe that investment in human capital is really, really important. And we need to be investing in young people and everyone else to enable them to be lifelong learners and to be adaptable. If we give support to people to be adaptable to changes in the labor markets, there really is a possibility that it will work on behalf of a very broad spectrum of society.

[Stephen Dubner]

In other words, every piece of technology, in a way, could become a cobot if we humans are skilled enough to collaborate with them.

[Karen Eggleston]

Yes, yes, I think there really is a potential for technology to make our lives better. But I'm not of that opinion that it's going to automatically happen. I think it comes down to the choices that we make, particularly in policy, on behalf of the most vulnerable in our society.

[David Autor]

We have time to adapt our institutions, our educational systems, and the way we work.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that, again, is the MIT economist David Otter. The third and final question from his Task Force on the Future of Work was, how can our civic institutions ensure that the gains from these emerging innovations contribute to equality of opportunity, social inclusion, and shared prosperity? The problem strikes me, as a layperson, is maybe a gigantic coordination problem because we look to our governments to coordinate the way jobs and the economy will flow and take care of everybody. But in fact, governments aren't really very equipped to do that, whereas firms have a different set of incentives. So can you just describe how that will unfold in a way that leaves people not. Not either out of work or grotesquely underpaid or working in an economy where the gap between the high and low just gets bigger and bigger?

[David Autor]

So first, I want to argue that the government actually can do a lot and that we in America tend to deride our government and assume it can't be effective. But in many ways, history demonstrates just the opposite. And you don't have to look very far back in history. Just look back when the government passed the CARES act and overnight essentially took 10% of GDP and said, hey, we're going to send this to households, to businesses, and to the unemployed to keep this pandemic from turning into an economic catastrophe. And it was highly effective. And the government similarly has been effective in shaping technology over many generations. The US had a leading patent system. It's in our constitution. But the US has also invested in R and D through our universities, in health development and so on. So it actually plays a big role in even setting the rules of the road.

[Stephen Dubner]

To that end, the MIT work of the future task force had some concrete recommendations. They include heavy investment in education and job training, both in schools and through private firms, improving the quality of existing jobs via policies like a higher minimum wage and labor organizing protections, and reforming the tax incentives that privilege capital investments over labor. If you think all that sounds a lot like the recommendations we've been hearing about for a few decades now, I agree. So you might be forgiven for thinking these adjustments won't happen, at least not in time to deal with the robotic revolution. But David Otter isn't panicking. The revolution may be inevitable, but it's not instantaneous.

[David Autor]

The technology is spectacular and it's going to have momentous impacts, but they're unfolding gradually. They often take years to decades. Think about the gap between the hype about driverless cars and the number that you don't yet see on the roads. And many of the things are still a ways off. I mean, these things will happen, but they take time.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let me ask you to cast your mind forward, let's say between 10 and 20 years. It's pretty easy to foresee that a lot of low skill jobs will be replaced or very much amended. But let's say even a lot of medium and high skill ones, let's say economists and writers and podcasters and forensic insurance agents, let's say that many, many, many of those jobs get essentially wiped out by some combination of robots and cobots and artificial intelligence and machine learning. Wouldn't that mostly be a wonderful thing?

[David Autor]

So it's wonderful in one sense. It means we are now much richer. We can do everything we are doing and yet not use any labor to do it. So we have incredible leisure opportunities. Therefore, we have incredible productivity, incredible wealth. The problem that creates is twofold. One is a huge distributional challenge. Our main method of income distribution in this country and in most industrialized economies is ownership of labor, right? You have some labor, you invest in your skills, and then you sell those skills and labor to the market for 30, 35 years. You save up some money, you retire. If labor is no longer scarce, what claim do you have on the assets of that society? So I worry about that problem. The problem of abundance, actually the problem of lack of labor scarcity. The other is, I do think work. You know, one can oversell it, but work should be venerated to some degree. It gives people identity, it gives them structure, it gives them purpose.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, this is what the Calvinists have always told us. But how do we know this is true?

[David Autor]

Well, we know when people lose work they are miserable. So if we're going to have less work, I'd like to see everybody have a little bit less rather than many people not working at all.

[Stephen Dubner]

David Otter is a lot smarter than me, so I am inclined to believe him when he says that people are miserable when they lose work. On the other hand, could it be that people who've lost work in the past have been miserable because our civilization is built around work as the primary means to satisfy your basic needs? If the assets of society, as Otter puts it, are so bountiful at some point in the future, shouldn't there be a way to share in those assets while our robot and cobot friends do most of the work? Some people are lucky enough to love their work. I'll be honest, that describes me most days at least, and I'm guessing it describes David Otter too. But many, many, many people have jobs they do not love and which keep them from what they do love. Economists are pretty good at measuring utility, but they're not very good yet at measuring things like love. Maybe if the robots and cobots are really smart, they can teach the economists how to do that. Since we originally published this episode, Yong Li and Karen Eggleston have come out with a new paper about robots and labor in nursing homes in Japan. They found that introducing cobots did not reduce the number of human workers, but it did reduce employee turnover, which is a good thing and it also improved patient outcomes. Also a good thing. Here's what Eggleston told us by email. These patterns suggest that robots have the potential to enhance quality of care while augmenting care workers so they can focus more on human touch care and less on the back pain inducing physical tasks that contribute to making care work. Such a high turnover job. We also reached out to James Rosenman of the Andress on Hudson Nursing Home to ask how his cobuts are doing. He told us that since 2021 the facility has expanded its telehealth robot program and added some new devices including a semi robotic system that helps nursing assistants rotate bed bound patients and a robotic exoskeleton that can help stroke patients stand up and walk. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. We will be back very soon with a brand new episode of Freakonomics Radio. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Although maybe a cobot is taking care of them. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Zach Lipinski and updated by Augusta Chapman. Our staff also includes Alina Cullman, Dalvin Abuaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Ripon, Jasmine Klinger, Jason Gambrell, Jeremy Johnston, John Schnarz, Lyric Bowditch, Morgan Levy, Neal Carruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sara Lilly and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers. Our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thank you for listening. What do you call these two robots? Do they have names right now?

[James Rosenman]

The Steven, you know, dubnit robot. And that's really no. Well, we're going to after this.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Freakonomics Radio Network. The Hidden side of Everything.

[David Autor]

Stitcher.

[Stephen Dubner]

If you could hear love, what would it sound like?

[James Rosenman]

Son, can we talk about your drinking?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, Dad, I think we should Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drink. Maybe that's what love sounds like.

[James Rosenman]

[e-mail] An OHA initiative the kind of.

[Carl's Jr. Advertiser]

Burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad, same old same old burgers or you're at a Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger demanding a house made guacamole. Loaded guacamole bacon, Fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic Char Famous star? Give into your flavor cravings. Do your mouth to Carl's Jr. Good Burger.

[David Autor]

Is it a stay in or a go out kind of Friday night? The choice is yours. Find the detail that moves you with three times points on dining including takeout from Chase Sapphire Reserve. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.

[Stephen Dubner]

JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC.

[David Autor]

Subject to credit approval terms apply.