Is It a Theater Piece or a Psychological Experiment? (Update)

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode Summary: "Is It a Theater Piece or a Psychological Experiment? (Update)"

Episode Details:

• Title: Is It a Theater Piece or a Psychological Experiment? (Update)
• Host: Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher (Stephen J. Dubner)
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

Stephen Dubner introduces a special bonus episode that delves into the intersection of immersive theater and psychological experiments. The focal points are the groundbreaking immersive theater production Sleep No More by Punch Drunk and the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment led by Philip Zimbardo.

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Philip Zimbardo and the Stanford Prison Experiment

[02:06] Philip Zimbardo on Theater: Philip Zimbardo recounts his experience watching the original Broadway performance of Hair, highlighting its chaotic and boundary-pushing nature:

"Start walking on the seats over your head and walking down the aisles. And that I had never experienced that before. And it was really troubling, exhilarating, confusing."
— Philip Zimbardo [02:19]

[02:57] Stephen Dubner: Dubner connects Zimbardo to his most notorious study, the Stanford Prison Experiment, outlining its premise:

"In the Stanford Prison Experiment, some student volunteers played the role of prisoners and others acted as guards. Things got ugly fast."

[03:30] Stephen Dubner on Zimbardo’s Death: Zimbardo passed away in 2024, leaving behind a legacy marked by both groundbreaking research and controversy.

[03:38] Philip Zimbardo on Experimentation: Zimbardo discusses his penchant for tweaking environments to observe human behavior:

"By putting people in totally new situations, that's really how we discover something about ourselves."
— Philip Zimbardo [03:38]

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Introduction to Sleep No More

[04:25] Stephen Dubner: Dubner introduces Sleep No More, an immersive theater production by Punch Drunk, blending elements of Macbeth, Hitchcock, and film noir. The show ran in New York from 2011 until January 2025.

[05:24] Tori Sparks on Sleep No More: Actress Tori Sparks describes the production as:

"It's insane. It is. It's crazy. Sexual and violent. Crazy, insane. Dead babies involved. Passionate."
— Tori Sparks [05:24]

[05:39] Stephen Dubner on Audience Experience: Dubner outlines the secretive and immersive nature of Sleep No More, set in the McKittrick Hotel—a transformed warehouse—with audiences wearing masks and navigating a multi-floor elaborate set.

[06:05] Audience Preparation: Guests are instructed to leave their belongings at the door, wear masks, and adhere to strict rules, fostering a sense of control loss and anonymity.

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The Psychology Behind Sleep No More

Control and Context:

1. Control:

   • [06:05] Stephen Dubner:
     Dubner explains how the production challenges attendees who prefer controlling their environment by imposing strict entry protocols and behavioral rules.

   • [08:03] Tori Sparks:
     Sparks observes how restrictions, like wearing masks and not speaking, elicit varied reactions:

     "Some people just can’t handle instructions. They can’t handle limitations... others are excited by the fact that they get to be anonymous."
     — Tori Sparks [08:03]

2. Context:

   • [09:35] Tori Sparks:
     Describes the experience as a "choose your own adventure," where audiences navigate the expansive set freely, engaging with different scenes and characters.

   • [10:35] Felix Barrett on Anonymity:
     Felix Barrett, artistic director of Punch Drunk, emphasizes the importance of masks in breaking down traditional performer-audience barriers:

     "They’re faceless, they’re anonymous. So the normal relationship between performer and audience is completely ground down."
     — Felix Barrett [11:21]

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Experiences Within Sleep No More

[12:09] Stephen Dubner Reflects on Zimbardo: Dubner draws parallels between the immersive theater experience and the Stanford Prison Experiment, pondering how environments shape behavior.

[13:24] Tori Sparks on Unforeseen Events: Sparks narrates an incident where an audience member violently disrupts a performance:

"A pregnant woman and her husband having a fight and then making up... my friend Austin's in it and he gets naked and bloody."
— Tori Sparks [10:57]

[14:19] Felix Barrett on Audience Behavior: Barrett discusses how masks liberate audiences, leading to uninhibited interactions:

"People’s actions are just... They become more daring, less inhibited, more mischievous."
— Tori Sparks [41:02]

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Stanford Prison Experiment: A Deeper Dive

[19:17] Tori Sparks on Milgram's Experiment: Sparks humorously references Milgram's obedience studies:

"I keep giving them shocks."
— Tori Sparks [19:17]

[20:21] Philip Zimbardo on Experiment Design: Zimbardo describes the setup and rapid deterioration of the Stanford Prison Experiment:

"We put people in a totally new situation where... they gave guards total power over prisoners."
— Philip Zimbardo [20:21]

[23:20] Ending the Experiment: The experiment, intended for two weeks, was terminated after six days due to severe abuse and mental distress among participants:

"Some prisoners began to break down. ...and the experiment was canceled after six days."
— Stephen Dubner [23:20]

[24:17] Stephen Dubner on Zimbardo’s Realization: Zimbardo recounts the pivotal moment when Christina Maslach confronted him about the abuse, leading to the experiment's termination and their subsequent marriage.

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Reevaluating the Stanford Prison Experiment

[25:37] Dubner & Nick Bruder on Experiment Integrity: Stephen Dubner consults economist Steve Levitt and Nick Bruder, Punch Drunk’s artistic director, questioning the authenticity of Zimbardo’s findings.

[26:23] Nick Bruder Skepticism: Bruder expresses doubt about the experiment's results replicability:

"I just fundamentally don't believe that if you take undergrads and you put them into the role of the prisoner versus the prison guard, it's just... I just don't think it's real."
— Nick Bruder [26:23]

[28:00] Volunteer Reflections: Dubner cites feedback from original participants who suggest the experiment may have been manipulated:

"One said that he was playing a role from the outset... another guard felt Zimbardo shaped the experiment to fit his conclusions."
— Stephen Dubner [28:00]

[28:52] Philip Zimbardo on Situationism: Zimbardo maintains his theory that situations heavily influence behavior, despite acknowledging methodological flaws:

"Individual variations in personality predict almost nothing about people in these situations."
— Philip Zimbardo [22:36]

[29:00] Investigations into Fraud in Academia: Dubner references a 2018 investigation by Ben Blum and Thibault Letexier, which challenges the integrity of the Stanford Prison Experiment, noting similar scrutiny of other high-profile psychology studies.

---

The Role of Theater in Understanding Human Behavior

[32:55] Felix Barrett on Moon Slave: Barrett describes an avant-garde production designed to manipulate audience perception:

"We let them do it... and now had a whole crowd of audience just watching."
— Felix Barrett [32:55]

[34:55] Felix Barrett on Audience Manipulation: Barrett explains how immersive theater can serve as a living social experiment, engaging audiences emotionally and behaviorally.

[36:20] Tori Sparks on Audience Interaction: Sparks highlights moments where audience members actively engage with the performance, blurring lines between actor and spectator:

"They steal. They love to wear Lady Macduff's fur coat... they have sex."
— Tori Sparks [36:37]

[39:08] Nick Bruder on Human Behavior: Bruder discusses societal norms and personal conduct, challenging the notion that people are inherently inclined towards negative behaviors:

"The puzzle is not why is there so much crime? The puzzle is why is there so little crime."
— Nick Bruder [39:08]

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Concluding Insights

[40:29] Stephen Dubner's Reflection: Dubner poses a philosophical question to listeners about the balance between individual identity and environmental influence:

"Am I behaving the way I am because of who I am or simply because of my surroundings?"
— Stephen Dubner [40:29]

[41:31] Tori Sparks on Behavioral Changes: Sparks reflects on how the theater experience altered her behavior:

"I feel good. It was right in the moment."
— Tori Sparks [41:31]

[43:05] Final Thoughts: Dubner wraps up by emphasizing the blurred lines between theater and psychological experimentation, suggesting that immersive performances like Sleep No More offer profound insights into human behavior beyond traditional academic studies.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Immersive Theater as Social Experiment: Sleep No More leverages an immersive environment with strict behavioral rules and anonymity to observe and influence audience behavior, akin to social science experiments.

2. Influence of Environment on Behavior: Both Sleep No More and the Stanford Prison Experiment illustrate how environments and roles can significantly impact individuals' actions and interactions.

3. Questioning Research Integrity: Recent investigations have cast doubt on the Stanford Prison Experiment's validity, highlighting potential manipulations and biases.

4. Theater as a Tool for Understanding Human Nature: Immersive performances provide a unique platform to explore and understand complex human behaviors and societal norms.

5. Ethical Considerations: The episode underscores the importance of ethical standards in both psychological research and immersive theater practices to prevent harm and maintain integrity.

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Notable Quotes:

• Philip Zimbardo [02:19]:

  "Start walking on the seats over your head and walking down the aisles... They're going to sing songs about masturbation and black girls having sex with white guys..."

• Tori Sparks [05:24]:

  "It's insane. It is. It's crazy. Sexual and violent. Crazy, insane. Dead babies involved. Passionate."

• Felix Barrett [11:21]:

  "They’re faceless, they’re anonymous. So the normal relationship between performer and audience is completely ground down."

• Nick Bruder [26:23]:

  "I just fundamentally don't believe that if you take undergrads and you put them into the role of the prisoner versus the prison guard, it's just... I just don't think it's real."

• Nick Bruder [39:08]:

  "The puzzle is not why is there so much crime? The puzzle is why is there so little crime."

• Stephen Dubner [40:29]:

  "Am I behaving the way I am because of who I am or simply because of my surroundings?"

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Conclusion

This episode of Freakonomics Radio offers a compelling exploration of how immersive theater can serve as a modern-day social experiment, revealing the profound effects of environment and anonymity on human behavior. By juxtaposing Sleep No More with the Stanford Prison Experiment, the discussion invites listeners to reflect on the malleability of individual actions within structured settings and the ethical implications therein.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. Now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile do you say data or data however you say it? It's time to stop overpaying for your monthly data plan with Mint Mobile and their premium wireless plans that start at just 15 bucks a month. No matter how you say it, don't overpay for it. Shop data [e-mail] freak that's mintmobile.com freak Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to DOL dollars a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hey there Stephen Dubner. We are in the middle of a new series on the economics of live theater, which got me thinking about another episode we made way back in 2012 about the psychology of one particularly fascinating piece of theater. Such a fascinating piece that it only closed finally in early 2025. The episode also gets into one of the most famous experiments in the history of psychology, so I hope you enjoy this bonus episode. As always, thanks for listening. Sometimes you see a piece of theater and it completely scrambles your brain.

[Philip Zimbardo]

I remember I was at one of the first performances of Hair.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Philip Zimbardo, the renowned psychologist, seeing hair scrambled his brain because the performers.

[Philip Zimbardo]

Start walking on the seats over your head and walking down the aisles. And that I had never experienced that before. And it was really troubling, exhilarating, confusing. Because again, hair was going to confuse you. They're going to sing songs about masturbation and black girls having sex with white guys and white guys having sex with black. So essentially before the play began, what they did is set up to say, this is going to shock you. This is going to be off your usual radar. So don't come expecting traditional theater. This is something new. I still remember that was like 40 years ago. We starved.

[Stephen Dubner]

Look again, that was Philip Zimbardo. Does that name ring a bell? If you ever took Psychology 101 in college, think back to that. You remember reading about the Stanford Prison Experiment? That was Zimbardo's experiment back in 1971, in which some student volunteers played the role of prisoners and others acted as guards. Things got ugly Fast.

[Tori Sparks]

Experiment and Dr. Zimbardo.

[Stephen Dubner]

Zimbardo died in 2024 at the age of 91. In his everyday life, he liked messing with people.

[Philip Zimbardo]

In many settings I'm in, I tweak my environment to see what would happen. What would happen if, you know, you go into a restaurant and the waiter gives you a thing, and he says, I'd like to start with dessert. And he says, what? I'd like to start with dessert. You got a really good dessert menu sometimes he said, no, you can't. No, you have to start with the appetizer. I said, no, I'd like the dessert. I'll work backwards. What difference does it make? By putting people in totally new situations, that's really how we discover something about ourselves.

[Tori Sparks]

Sun shining.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner. Okay, so Philip Zimbardo is the man responsible for the Stanford Prison Experiment, one of the most famous social science experiments in history. We will hear more about that and some new revelations about the experiment later in this episode. But first, let's get to the real inspiration for today's show. It is a theater piece, an immersive, interactive theater piece called Sleep no More. Sleep no More is the creation of a British theater group called Punch Drunk. It opened in New York in 2011 and ran until January of 2025. Sleep no More is a mashup of Macbeth and Hitchcock and film noir, but it's even stranger than all that.

[Tori Sparks]

I don't even know how to describe it. It's insane. I don't know. It is. It's crazy. Sexual and violent. Crazy, insane. Dead babies involved. Passionate.

[Nick Bruder]

I don't know.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sleep no More is designed to throw you off balance. It begins before you even go inside. The location is called the McKittrick Hotel, but in fact, it's an old warehouse in Chelsea. The whole thing is cloaked in secrecy.

[Tori Sparks]

Not really sure what to expect.

[Stephen Dubner]

We were told to know as little.

[Tori Sparks]

As possible, and so we've done almost no research as to what we're about to do. I'm just hoping I can make it.

[Stephen Dubner]

All the way through.

[Tori Sparks]

And I don't leave. I don't get too scared. Just, like, little tidbits of intrigue. You know, we've heard that you get, like, a key to a room.

[Stephen Dubner]

Apparently, everyone wears a mask and you're allowed to look through drawers in the sets. And that's about all we know.

[Tori Sparks]

We heard that it's like psychologically intense. Yeah, psychologically intense. And that seems interesting to me.

[Stephen Dubner]

Psychologically intense. I would agree. Now, what makes it so? Let me offer two. Control and context. First, control. If you are the kind of person who likes to have a lot of control over your surroundings, if you're not exactly a go with the flow type of person, and yes, I am kind of describing myself here, then Sleep no More presents you with a bit of a challenge. It starts while you're waiting in line on the sidewalk. A bouncer requests a photo id. Doesn't say why, just requests it. And everybody in line complies wordlessly. Once you're inside, there's a mandatory coat and bag check. Everything must go, every computer, every purse. And then you're shuffled through a long pitch black hallway. Out of the blackness, you emerge into a bar. Nice bar, the good jazz band. The place has the feel of a speakeasy and you're thinking, hey, what year are we in here? You're offered a drink. Absinthe, perhaps. A fortune teller looks you over from a corner table. After a while, you're summoned into a freight elevator where you are given a mask, a beautifully creepy beaked mask. And then you are told what you may and may not do for the rest of the evening. Here's Tori Sparks. She plays Lady Macbeth.

[Tori Sparks]

I think it's very telling of who you are, how you interpret those first instructions that you get. You know, keep your mask on, don't talk, don't use your cell phone. Fortune papers, the bold. Yeah, you know, and people enter in and some people just can't handle instructions. They can't handle limitations. They want to talk and you just told them they can't, so they will. And other people are excited by the fact that they get to be anonymous for three.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so you've surrendered your valuables at the door and you're now dispatched on a three hour adventure about which you are told next to nothing, during which you may not speak. And yet you're also told that fortune favors the bold. So, yes, you have given up a bit of control. Okay, now for the context. Where are we? Where's the stage? Well, there is no stage. Or really the stage is everywhere. Six floors of warehouse that have been turned into an unbelievably elaborate set. There's an old hotel and a town. There are lodgings for the Macbeths and the Macduffs. There's a grand ballroom, a forest, a hospital, a Cemetery. You are allowed to wander anywhere and everywhere, to open drawers and read letters, to eat candy from the glass jars in the sweets shop.

[Tori Sparks]

It's sort of like choose your own adventure.

[Stephen Dubner]

So you're sort of forced to like forge your own path around the building.

[Felix Barrett]

And find different scenes.

[Tori Sparks]

You make your own journey. It's like very personal and sexual and leading.

[Stephen Dubner]

But what about the actors? Where are they?

[Tori Sparks]

I didn't see an actor for like the first 15 minutes, so I thought.

[Felix Barrett]

It was just kind of set decoration everywhere.

[Stephen Dubner]

But then you start seeing them and trying to figure out who they are, their relationships. You think back to what you were told, that fortune favors the bold. And you learn that you have to follow the performers from room to room, even chase them, or they might bring you with them.

[Tori Sparks]

A bald woman dragged me up several flights of stairs, through staircases and to this like arena. And it was like incredible.

[Stephen Dubner]

The context is further muddied by the fact that none of the performers actually speak. But over the course of the evening you will see a lot.

[Felix Barrett]

Someone hanging themselves was pretty cool. It's like the final. I won't tell you that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sorry.

[Tori Sparks]

A pregnant woman and her husband having a fight and then making up.

[Felix Barrett]

Lots of fighting, lots of kissing, lots.

[Stephen Dubner]

Of taxidermy, dry humping.

[Tori Sparks]

Oh, my friend Austin's in it and he gets naked and bloody. So that was pretty crazy. It's just. It's like a nightmare.

[Stephen Dubner]

And don't forget it's very dark and you're wearing a mask.

[Felix Barrett]

The mask is utterly critical and without it it wouldn't work or it'd be something very, very different.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Felix Barrett, he's the artistic director of Punch Drunk and co creator of Sleep no More.

[Felix Barrett]

They're faceless, they're anonymous. So there's that sort of. That normal relationship between performer and audience is completely ground down. The first time I tried it, a middle aged lady came and apologized me afterwards and said, I'm so sorry. I put the mask on. I found myself being very rude. I was getting too close to the performers. I even touched one at one point. I'm so sorry.

[Stephen Dubner]

And you must have said thank you.

[Felix Barrett]

I was like, thank you, because I didn't even realize how powerful it was. But she felt compelled to do it because the mask had given her that freedom. And as soon as it came off, she remembered who she was and where she was.

[Stephen Dubner]

The mask does seem to embolden people. Well, I did something I wasn't supposed to do.

[Philip Zimbardo]

I saw a dress hanging on the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Wall because they said not Everything is what it seems. So those who take more risks will be rewarded more.

[Tori Sparks]

So I put on the dress.

[Felix Barrett]

She was punished, and I was. Yeah, she belonged to one of the actresses, so he shouldn't have done it.

[Stephen Dubner]

The thought of being that much more.

[Tori Sparks]

Anonymous with a switch of clothing was even more exciting.

[Stephen Dubner]

One night, Tori Sparks, who plays Lady Macbeth, was dancing inside a sort of glass box.

[Tori Sparks]

I had a woman. I was performing a solo in the box and, like, a crowd watching this thing. And for whatever reason, this woman decided she was going to throw objects at the glass. And she found anything. And there's not much in this room you can pick up and throw, but she found it all she found. She went in our drawer, picked up the lipstick, the fur, anything, the wet T shirts, and just started chucking it as hard as she could at the glass. And fortunately, I was behind glass. I just kept going with what I was doing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you really want to know what's going on in that person's mind then? Or do you just. Well, I guess in the moment, you're just trying to survive the.

[Tori Sparks]

I was in shock. Just like you're really making that choice right now. Why? Why would you even think that? That's what needs to be done right now. And. Am I making you mad? Are you trying to mess with me? What's going on? So I just tried to stay in character, and the steward that's in this room, of course, went to try and stop her, and she just. She was like, oh, I didn't know. I was completely clueless.

[Stephen Dubner]

Fortune favors the bold.

[Tori Sparks]

Exactly.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tori Sparks]

Meanwhile, me and all these other spirits were just like, huh?

[Stephen Dubner]

Every detail of sleep no more. The music, the mask, the choreography has been carefully designed to crush your expectations that going to the theater means just sitting in a square room and watching people on a stage speak their lines. Here's Felix Barrett again.

[Felix Barrett]

It's completely safe. It just feels. We almost fictionalize. We dimmed it back. We fictionalize a state of tension that feels slightly unsettling and threatening, when actually.

[Stephen Dubner]

It' Before Sleep no More came to New York, it played in Boston in an old school building.

[Felix Barrett]

When we did Boston, the first show, they said, health and safety said, this is not going to work. It's too dangerous. So we had to put the lights up, and the show didn't work at all because audience were just walking around nonchalantly, just treating like a gallery, chatting. Because there was no sense of threat.

[Stephen Dubner]

Even though you told them not to talk.

[Felix Barrett]

Yeah, because here we have this huge swathe of darkness. If that's not there, then there's no mystery.

[Stephen Dubner]

So how would you behave if you were thrust into an unfamiliar situation, given a set of off putting rules and then told to hide behind a mask? That's coming up after the break. I'm Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. They make it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. And LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you are getting the best. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com freak that's LinkedIn.com freak to post your job for free, terms and conditions apply. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Walmart plus actually designed to help you save more time and money. No statistics needed here. We all have reasons we need to save more time and money. Whether you are a busy parent, dedicated pet parent or student on a shoestring budget, Walmart Plus Savings can be a lifesaver for anyone who shops at Walmart and wants to get even more savings. Another big plus is an included Paramount plus subscription so you can watch Blockbuster movies, Original series and more. Walmart plus it's Walmart Plus plus free delivery, free shipping, gas discounts, video streaming plus so much more. Start a free 30 day trial at PlusWallmart.com see Walmart plus terms and conditions $35 order minimum Paramount plus essential plan only separate registration required Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Stripe. When launching a new product, finding the right revenue model can be just as important as the product itself. That's why Stripe built Stripe Billing. Stripe Billing is the advanced billing software to grow any business from seat based subscriptions to usage based billing and every pricing model in between. Stripe Billing helps you grow your business your way fast. Learn how Stripe Billing can help your business at Stripe Billing. Sleep no More for me was a thrill unsettling on many dimensions, but also a thrill. What it really made me think about, however, wasn't Macbeth or Shakespeare or Hitchcock or all the awesomely grisly ideas promoted therein. I was mostly thinking about the audience. What it really made me think about was Philip Zimbardo, his Stanford prison experiment and how people change their behavior depending on their surroundings. Here's Zimbardo again.

[Philip Zimbardo]

One of the things that strikes me about this interesting play is that it puts the audience in a totally new situation. That is, audiences have never been asked to wear masks, play a role, have set of rules to govern their behavior.

[Stephen Dubner]

In a way, Sleep no More does to the audience every night what social scientists like Zimbardo have been doing in experiments for decades. They put people in a situation, fiddle with the variables, and see how they behave. Like Stanley Milgram's famous obedience experiments at Yale in the early 1960s to see whether a volunteer would administer an electric jolt to someone if told to do so by an authority figure.

[Tori Sparks]

I know, I keep giving them shocks.

[Stephen Dubner]

Continue, please.

[Nick Bruder]

I'm up to 390.

[Tori Sparks]

Continue, please. Continue, please.

[Stephen Dubner]

Milgram's experiments took place shortly after Adolf Eichmann went on trial in Jerusalem for Nazi war crimes. Here's Philip Zimbardo again.

[Philip Zimbardo]

And as a sidebar, little Stanley Milgram and I were high school classmates at James Monroe High School in the Bronx in senior year 19, 19. 48, 49. So essentially, there was something in that water, but it was really, you know, he was a little Jewish kid who worried about, you know, could the Holocaust happen in America? If Hitler said, electrocute somebody, would you do it? Or Hitler's henchmen? And everybody said, no, Stanley, we're not that kind of person. And what he said as a high school kid, how do you know unless you're in that situation?

[Stephen Dubner]

After the Milgram experiments, Zimbardo got the idea to set up a fake prison at Stanford with some volunteers acting as guards and some as prisoners.

[Philip Zimbardo]

And that was the central commonality in the Milgram obedience studies. And my Stanford prison study is we put people in a totally new situation where in both studies, we gave people total power over someone else.

[Stephen Dubner]

The experiment was designed to go on for two weeks. 24 volunteers, all male college students, were randomly divided into inmates and guards. The inmates were arrested at their homes and brought to a makeshift prison in the basement of the Stanford Psychology Department. Immediately, their individuality was taken away. The guards called them by ID number rather than name. They wore stocking caps to cover their hair and a short smock with no underwear. The guards, too were dressed alike, essentially becoming anonymous.

[Philip Zimbardo]

And the guards not only were in uniforms, but they had to wear silver reflecting sunglasses, an idea I got from the movie Cool Hand Luke.

[Stephen Dubner]

It didn't take long for the situation to curdle. 416, you got your hands in the air. Why don't you play Frankenstein? 493, you can be the bride of Frankenstein. You stand here, you come over there, you be the bride of Frankenstein and you be Frankenstein.

[Felix Barrett]

I want you to walk over here.

[Stephen Dubner]

Like Frankenstein and say that you love.

[Felix Barrett]

293.

[Stephen Dubner]

A third of the guards started to exploit their authority, taunting prisoners, making them simulate sodomy, clean toilets with their bare hands. Zimbardo himself began to play a role.

[Philip Zimbardo]

I began to be the prison superintendent. I see videotapes of my. I'm walking down the yard with my hands behind my back and my chest out. I never do that. I was surprised to see that. But that is how you know the military offices when they're reviewing the troops. That's many politicians. It's a position of authority and power which I abhor. I mean, I always work hard to minimize the power I have as a teacher. And here I was unconsciously assuming it now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Zimbardo is a situationist.

[Philip Zimbardo]

I'm a situationist dyed in the wool. Individual variations in quote, personality predict almost nothing about people in these situations, meaning.

[Stephen Dubner]

He firmly believes that people aren't necessarily good or bad, but that their behavior is strongly dependent on their situation, on the role they're expected to play. During the Stanford prison experiment, the situation was so intense that after just 36 hours, some prisoners began to break down. I mean, Jesus Christ, I'm burning up inside. Don't you know I can't stand it? I up. I don't know how to explain it all.

[Felix Barrett]

Up, inside, out, out.

[Stephen Dubner]

Now, instead of lasting two weeks, the experiment was canceled after six days.

[Philip Zimbardo]

The way the study ended was I had invited young faculty members and graduate students who knew nothing about this study to come down and interview all the prisoners, guards and staff. And Christina Maslach, who had been my graduate student, who he had just started dating, comes down the night before and sees the guards abusing the prisoners. And I look up, it's a 10:00 toilet run. 10:00 at night. Last time, prisoners go to the toilet and prisoners have bags over their head, legs chained together, yelling, screaming, cursing. And I say, hey, Christina, look at that. Isn't that interesting? And she starts crying and runs out. We have this big argument. And I'm saying, what kind of psychologist are you? This is a crucible of human nature. She says, wait a minute. How could you see what I see and not see it as dehumanization? I thought I knew who you were. I don't know who you are. I don't know who this person is. And I'm not sure I want to continue my relationship with you if this is the real you.

[Stephen Dubner]

How long had you been dating by this point?

[Philip Zimbardo]

Oh, probably six months.

[Stephen Dubner]

And when she said it, was it kind of a light bulb moment for you, or did you fight against the impulse?

[Philip Zimbardo]

No, I fought against the impulse because I. At some deep level, I knew she was right. I didn't want to believe that I was changed by the situation. I mean, I'm a grownup. I've done lots of research.

[Stephen Dubner]

And not only are you a grownup, but you are the administrator of this thing. And it's amazing to me. I mean, now, 40 some years later, you can talk about it with the perspective of someone who was a participant and who understands what happened to you. But did you have any sense that what was happening to you was happening to you at the time?

[Philip Zimbardo]

Oh, not at all. No. I'm saying it was not a light bulb. It was a lightning bolt that when she said it, we both talked about it. We subsequently got married the next year because I realized she was my heroine who saved me because the study was going to go another full week. And I'm not sure what would have happened at that point, but it was a lightning bolt. And of course I resisted at first because what it means is I had made this mistake. I should have ended it days earlier. And essentially, it's what administrators do. I didn't do anything wrong, but I allowed wrongdoing to go on. And actually, one of the worst guards said in a later interview, the professor never said I couldn't do it and therefore I did it.

[Stephen Dubner]

So does Sleep no More offer a better lesson in human behavior? To answer that question, I called my Freakonomics friend and co author, Steve Levitt. He's an economist at the University of Chicago and host of the podcast People I Mostly Admire. Over the course of his academic career, Levitt has run and observed a lot of experiments, both in the lab and in the field. Hey, let me ask you this, Levitt. I'm sure you're familiar with the famous Stanford prison experiment. Philip Zimbardo. Yes, sure. So what do you think that says about anonymity or the power that a circumstance, a place being put In a place and playing a role, the power that that has on us, you know, I actually never.

[Nick Bruder]

That's one result I don't believe. I just fundamentally don't believe that if you take undergrads and you put them into the role of the prisoner versus the prison guard, it's just. I've never tried it, but I just don't believe that it's real. And I think to get it, you have to manipulate other things. It just doesn't seem right to me that people are like that now. Maybe that's what's so amazing about it, is that it really happens.

[Stephen Dubner]

And.

[Nick Bruder]

And there was. I don't know if you were with me by the time I was talking to a movie, a director from the BBC and he said that he had tried to recreate that for the BBC and it got so ugly so quickly that he had to cancel the whole thing and they didn't even do the show. But I don't know.

[Stephen Dubner]

But wait, it got so ugly so quickly connoting that it did happen? Yes.

[Nick Bruder]

Yeah, he said it was real too. But a lot of times what I found is that when I try to do experiments as an economist that work great for psychologists, I cannot get them to work. And I really have come to believe that it's because the people in this study are so keen on doing what the researcher wants them to do, and they think that the psychologist wants them to behave in one way and they think the economist wants them to behave in a different way. And so it's hard to reproduce some of those psychological finding. So I would love to do the prison study and I'd love to do it in a way that was unbiased. And I just. That's one thing. I would bet a lot of money that things wouldn't turn out the way they did in that old Zimbardo study.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, you know, let me read you. Here's what a couple of the volunteers who played guards back then, 40 some years ago, here's what they said recently. One said that he was playing a role from the outset, trying to create drama, to, quote, give the researchers something to work with. And another guard said, I didn't think it was ever meant to go the full two weeks. I think Zimbardo wanted to create a dramatic crescendo and then end it as quickly as possible. I felt that throughout the experiment he knew what he wanted and then tried to shape the experiment by how it was constructed and how it played out to fit the conclusion that he had already worked out he wanted to be able to say that college students, people from middle class backgrounds, that people will turn on each other just because they're given a role and given power.

[Nick Bruder]

So people won't believe me. I have never heard those quotes. I didn't know anyone else thought that way. What I said before was just my intuition that that is not human behavior. What got revealed in those studies.

[Stephen Dubner]

Steve Levitt's intuition, turned out to be pretty good. Since we first published this episode, there's been more evidence that challenges the integrity of Philip Zimbardo's findings. In 2018, journalist Ben Blum and researcher Thibault Letexier published separate investigations based on archival recordings and interviews with participants, which argued that the Stanford Prison Experiment had been significantly manipulated. Zimbardo himself acknowledged that there were methodological problems with the experiment. He shouldn't have played the role of the warden, he said, but he stood by the experiment's main conclusion. The Stanford Prison Experiment is hardly the only high profile psychology experiment to have been found shaky. If you want to know more, check out a two part series we ran in January 2024 called why is There so Much Fraud in Academia? Coming up after the break, can theater take us to places that psychology can't? I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Do you say data or data however you say it? It's time to stop overpaying for your monthly data plan with Mint Mobile and their premium wireless plans that start at just 15 bucks a month. All Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data or data, your choice, and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Plus, you can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of free premium wireless service from mint mobile for 15 bucks a month. No matter how you say it, don't overpay for it. Shop data [e-mail] freak that's mintmobile.com freak upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Stripe. When launching a new product, finding the right revenue model can be just as important as the product itself. That's why Stripe built Stripe Billing. Stripe Billing is the advanced billing software to grow any business from seat based subscriptions to usage based billing and every pricing model in between. Stripe Billing helps you grow your business your way fast. Learn how Stripe Billing can help your [e-mail] billing freakonomics radio is sponsored by Canva and a future filled with exciting presentations wow the crowd with Canva presentations. No design experience needed, just start with a stunning template and drag and drop graphics from Canva's massive media library. With AI inside your slides, you can animate text in a click or generate slides and text in seconds with a prompt. You will love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and co workers will too love your work with Canva. Presentationsanva.com A study like the Stanford Prison Experiment could never happen today. At least not in the us. When it was over, the American Psychological association imposed new standards for how research subjects could be treated. So if you really want to mess with someone, manipulate their mind, your best bet may still be the theater. Felix Barrett, years before he created Sleep no More, staged a show that was so unorthodox and rarefied that only four people ever got to experience.

[Felix Barrett]

Was called the Moon Slave. And it started with an invitation being sent to come to a theatre this town in southwest England to come to a theater, see a show called the Moonslave. And we invited press and Arts Council, the main funding body, so they thought it was a bog standard show, turned up expecting a normal sit down proscenium arc show. Arrived after dark to this sleepy little theatre. No other cars in the car park. Walked in inside the theatre, addressed auditorium, seats for 200 programs, lights on, no one there. So they waited around for a while, got a bit spooked. Thankfully all of them stayed. And then a phone rings up on the stage and they realize they have to get up onto that stage. Amongst the set, they find a parcel that's addressed to them. Inside that parcel they unwrap it. It's a phone that says your driver's waiting outside. And then they leave the autorom again, get into the second car, waiting with a mar chauffeur. They get into the back of that car, the car speeds off and drives into the countryside. And there in the back of the car, a narrated soundtrack symphonic soundtrack begins on the car stereo. And that's the true beginning of the show. And then for the next hour they're driven around, dropped off in the middle of the countryside, given a headset. So the story and the symphonic soundtrack continues. And they go through this vast walk through forests and countryside, culminating in a massive sort of pyrotechnic finale. When revealed, they're not actually by themselves, they're actually surrounded by 200 scarecrows. And it was. We actually ended up shooting a marine flare into the sky to reveal. To turn the sky red for 15 miles. So it's all about crescendo and expectation and intimacy.

[Stephen Dubner]

Wow. So you do really love to mess with people. And I say that not pejoratively at all. In a. Like, as a theater creator, you see the audience member differently than other theater creators do, don't you? Um, it strikes me that you are half theater creator and half social scientist.

[Felix Barrett]

I suppose when I go and see, I can think back about the sort of five pieces of theatre that blow me away. And there's that sensation you get when it's really high quality, well thought out, well crafted art that's visceral. It connects emotionally. It's almost like that sort of that nexus where everything connects and you get this one sublime moment. I can feel that in my body now, if I think about it. And all I want to do as a maker is to give audience members that sensation. And it's difficult to find. And so maybe I just go a different route to try and source it, but I think I'm just the same as any other director. Just, you know, you just want your audience to be lost in the work you create.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's one of the pleasures of seeing Sleep no More. Watching your fellow audience members get lost in the work. They don their masks and cast off their social mores. Yes. A few of them act out. They interfere with the cast. They steal.

[Tori Sparks]

They steal?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah. What do they steal?

[Tori Sparks]

They love the letters in Malcolm's office. Lady Macbeth's letters. They love to wear Lady Macduff's fur coat. They love the nurse's jacket. They love Macbeth's coat that he gets hung in.

[Stephen Dubner]

They have sex.

[Felix Barrett]

Yep. I think every show we've done, there's been sex. There's been some sex, yep.

[Stephen Dubner]

And there is empathy too. During Sleep no more one character tries to poison Lady Macduff. Here's Maxine Doyle, the show's choreographer and co director.

[Felix Barrett]

There have been moments when audiences have tried to interrupt that moment. There's been moments when Lady Macduff, we set this up. She falls in the party. Sometimes they let her fall on the floor. Most of the times, somebody will save her. More interestingly is Lady Macbeth, Decline of her story plays out in the hospital and she finishes in an image which is really vulnerable and, well, she's naked and bloody in another Bathtub in the hospital. And she beckons to the audience sometimes to help and some audience give her. We'll pick up a towel and we'll give her a towel or a holder. So it tends to be that audiences want to save, nurture, protect.

[Stephen Dubner]

And here again is Tori Sparks, who plays Lady Macbeth, and Nick Bruder, who plays Macbeth.

[Tori Sparks]

Some people's actions are just. They can be sincere too, or they offer one of the Macbeth's a towel while they're in the bathtub washing off the blood. And the most sincere gesture possible.

[Stephen Dubner]

Are you moving?

[Tori Sparks]

Yeah. It really can be. The intent behind anything can really. It just depends on why they're doing it.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's a good point. It's the intent behind things. There's 20 characters.

[Tori Sparks]

Yeah. So I could have a really great night. Somebody else has a crappy night.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you guys then have a postmortem.

[Tori Sparks]

Afterwards when we all collect in the elevator at the end? It is an un. They're just unreeling the nights. Did you see this person in that dress? Did you see that guy in that polka dot shirt? Can you believe what he did? He took this, he took that. You know, everybody's just like unleashing it all.

[Stephen Dubner]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. In the end, Sleep no More is too woolly, too freewheeling to think of as a social experiment. But it does look a little bit like society itself. Rules are established and sometimes broken. Mores are adopted, but not by everyone. What's most interesting, most encouraging perhaps, is how in Sleep no More, as in society in general, what we don't end up with is total chaos. Here's Steve Levitt again.

[Nick Bruder]

When I teach my class on the economics of crime to the undergraduates at the U of C, one of the points I stress over and over is that the puzzle is not why is there so much crime? The puzzle is just the opposite. Why is there so little crime? Why does the average person who has literally hundreds of chances to commit crimes in a day and not take advantage of those.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Nick Bruder]

Every time you walk past a five year old on the street, on the playground, you could bonk them over the head with no repercussions and run off. Or you could steal candy. You could.

[Stephen Dubner]

These are real high stakes crimes. You're talking about beating up children, stealing.

[Nick Bruder]

Candy, but nobody does them and you don't worry about people doing them. And even when there are, I mean, I'll be in a big room lecturing and I'll leave my cell phone and my backpack that has my computer in it. If I lost a computer, I would be beside myself. But I'll have complete faith that no one is going to steal it. And it's really not ultimately because they think they'll be caught. I think that one of the greatest powers of society is the ability to inculcate in people a sense of right and wrong. And so the overwhelming majority of people are trained to not do things that are negative to other people.

[Stephen Dubner]

So the next time you're at the grocery store or in church or in an elevator, ask yourself, am I behaving the way I am because of who I am or simply because of my surroundings? What would I do if I were wearing a mask? Am I as much of an individual as I think I am? Or am I more like a lump of silly Putty just waiting for society or a theater director to mold me?

[Tori Sparks]

I think it makes you a little more daring, a little less inhibited, more mischievous.

[Philip Zimbardo]

You got really gutsy, by the way.

[Tori Sparks]

I was really. I was really going for it brusquely.

[Felix Barrett]

Pushing people aside to follow the person I was trying to follow.

[Tori Sparks]

I got a little rude. I would try to, like, make noises at other people.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, I think you just. There's no boundaries.

[Tori Sparks]

I know. It was completely different than anything I've ever experienced. I just felt good. It was right in the moment.

[Stephen Dubner]

I hope you enjoyed this updated bonus episode. Punch Drunk's latest production, Viola's Re Room, arrives in New York in June and we will be back very soon with a new episode of Freakonomics Radio. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. This episode was produced by Susie Lechtenberg and updated by Dalvin Abuaji. Special thanks to Jonathan Hochwald from Immersive and Jake Smith. The Freakonomics Radio Network network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnston, John Schnars, Morgan Levy, Neal Carruth, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs and Zach Lipinski. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app [e-mail] where we also publish transcripts and show notes. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis G. As always, thanks for listening.

[Felix Barrett]

When we were really young as a company, we did a production of the Cherry Orchard and these two, this couple was a huge bed as part of the set and they took off their masks and started making out. And as st. I said, f. Watch. I do. Look, they've broken the rule because they'd become performers. I said, well, you know, they know what the contract is here. If they want to change their status, then by all means. So we let them do it. And now had a whole crowd of audience just watching.

[Tori Sparks]

The Freakonomics Radio network. The hidden side of everything. Stitcher.

[Stephen Dubner]

Gatorade Zero has all the electrolytes of.

[Tori Sparks]

Gatorade with zero sugar, designed to rehydrate and replenish for a day with zero excuses and zero reasons not to. Gatorade 0 is it in.