Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset? (Update)

Summary

Freakonomics Radio: "Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset?" (Update)

Episode Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Stephen J. Dubner

---

Episode Overview

This episode investigates the economic engine of the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade—a seemingly generous “gift to the nation” with hidden financial underpinnings. Stephen J. Dubner peels back the curtain to explore the true costs, logistics, sponsor deals, and city partnerships powering a New York tradition that captures 30 million TV viewers annually. Along the way, the show probes whether the parade is Macy’s most valuable asset at a time when brick-and-mortar retail is struggling.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic and Logistics of the Parade

• Hands-on Description:
  Dubner shares his personal experience living near the parade's start on the Upper West Side. Inflation Night—a neighborhood ritual where balloons are inflated and weighted down—draws thousands and is described as “the best New York night of the year.”
• Military Precision Meets Joy:
  Dubner admires the blend of “military efficiency and childlike glee” among organizers (00:01–04:30).

2. The Parade’s Scale and Audience

• TV Juggernaut:
  The parade is the only non-NFL, non-political program in the top 50 most-watched US TV events. Over 30 million watch on TV; another 3 million attend in person (04:30–06:00).
• Economic Opacity:
  Macy’s markets it as a “gift to the nation” but refuses to reveal the actual costs or financial specifics.

3. Inside Macy’s Parade Production

• Will Koss, Executive Producer:
  Explains year-round effort: 65+ full-time staff balloon and float teams, logistics, partnerships (08:17–09:10).

  "The executive producer oversees the entire production...from our balloon and float design...to all of the logistics as it relates to shutting down three and a half miles of New York City on the busiest travel day." (Will Koss, 08:25)

• Historical Backdrop:
  Macy’s has evolved from marching zoo animals to today’s high-production spectacle suited for a massive television audience (09:30–10:56).

4. NBC Universal and Broadcast Dynamics

• Jen Neal, Executive Producer, NBCU:
  Discusses the complexities of televising the parade, likening its variety-show format to—but significantly more complex than—the Super Bowl due to its sprawling, live nature (11:12–12:53).
• Advertising Value:
  Neal affirms that brands covet parade slots for their memorable reach:

  "We know that this is incredibly valuable to our advertising partners and that advertising messages deliver stronger memorability and likability." (Jen Neal, 14:48)

5. The Commercial Core: Brand Partnerships and Balloons

• Sponsorships:
  Most balloons (e.g., Pillsbury Doughboy, Snoopy) are paid promotional placements. Macy’s owns some (Tom Turkey, Santa), but others are paid for directly by brands.
• Anecdote from Jeff Kinney ("Diary of a Wimpy Kid")
  Kinney’s balloon success story highlights both the pride of creators and the proprietary financial deals behind each spot:

  "It was a multi-year situation. You pay a certain amount to get the balloon made and then a certain amount to have it flown every year." (Jeff Kinney, 27:25)

• Estimated Balloon Cost:
  Making a new balloon is “somewhere around the low $100,000 range” (Kinney, 28:13).
• ROI on Balloon Investments:
  For Kinney, the balloon is a brand-building “leg of a chair”: "If you kicked out that leg, maybe the whole thing collapses" (Kinney, 28:41).

6. Economics Breakdown:

• Rough Revenue Figures:
  • NBC ad revenue in 2023: $76 million.
  • NBC pays Macy’s ~$60 million for broadcast rights (from Wall Street Journal; Macy’s refuses comment) (17:26).
  • Does not account for direct brand payments to Macy’s for balloon or float sponsorship.
• Costs Are Fuzzy:
  Parade production is estimated at $10–15 million, but these are only outside estimates—Macy’s and partners are consistently evasive.

7. Behind the Scenes: Parade Studio and Balloons

• Parade Studio Tour:
  Parade studio in Menakee, NJ features 3D-printed balloon models, carpentry, float construction, and the assembly of giant balloons. John Chaney, a carpenter, offers a view of the high-pressure deadlines and pride of contributing to the parade (36:20–37:54).
• Balloon Creation Details:
  Balloons are made in chambers so that only parts need repair if damaged (38:06–39:21).
  Each balloon takes about 15,000 cubic feet of helium—balloon inflation costs approximately $425,000 for all balloons annually (41:33–41:56).

8. The City’s Role: Permits, Security, Cleanup

• Dawn Tolson, City Permits Director:
  Her office manages permits for 40+ parade blocks and coordinates with NYPD, sanitation, and more. While a fee of up to $66k per block is cited, these do not account for the full spectrum of city services (47:06–48:18).

  “If there were no permits, it would be a free for all.” (Dawn Tolson, 44:16)

• Security and Sanitation:
  • Massive city engagement (NYPD, counterterrorism, sanitation, etc.).
  • Sanitation handles 71,000 pounds of trash after the parade (53:01–53:50).
• Costs and Contributions:
  City values the parade for its global broadcast appeal and economic impact, not just permit fees.

9. The Unanswerable Questions

• Cost/Benefit Math Remains Elusive:
  The show’s attempts at a thorough cost-benefit analysis are stymied by opacity from Macy’s and city officials alike.
• Tony Spring, Macy’s CEO, Responds:
  Spring deflects attempts to quantify costs, re-focusing conversation on the parade’s ongoing relevance:

  “Why do I need to know how much the Lion King cost to produce?” (Tony Spring, 55:13)

  • Effectively, the precise economics remain a closely-guarded secret, deepening the show’s sense of the “hidden side” of the parade.

10. Looking Ahead: Macy’s Future

• Retail in Trouble:
  The episode ends previewing part two, which will focus on Macy’s struggle to stay relevant as retail evolves, and on authors like Jeff Kinney investing in new retail models.

  “Now is the time to buy Macy’s.” (Tony Spring, 56:26)
  Will Macy’s survive in the digital era? Is the parade an existential asset?

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Power of the Parade:
  “We are the largest televised variety show of the year...It’s a responsibility that we don’t take lightly.” (Will Koss, 10:56)

• Parade as Brand Advertising:
  “The parade itself is one big ad for Macy’s.” (Stephen Dubner, 07:07)

• Mystique of Costs:
  “Macy’s doesn’t like to talk about it and therefore it’s hard to even identify all the costs.” (Stephen Dubner, 07:07)

• Balloon Politics:
  “If you have a Minions float, you’re definitely going to talk about Stuart the Minion and the frantic bananas...Ronald McDonald, Smokey the Bear—all of these have their own unique messaging.” (Jen Neal, 16:34)

• On Brand Legacy:
  “Macy’s doesn’t stand for anything today.” (Will Koss, 06:29)

• City Partnership:
  “Hats off to the NYPD. There are people out there since 1am... so you don’t even hear a car honking.” (Dawn Tolson, 49:19)

• Personal Stakes:
  “The ride for me has been a lot like The Truman Show… I created this character...and somehow that has propelled me into the most unusual situations you could imagine.” (Jeff Kinney, 21:30)

---

Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• Personal Parade Memories & Inflation Night: 00:01–04:30
• TV Ratings and the “Gift to the Nation”: 04:30–07:07
• Production Logistics/Costs with Will Koss: 08:17–10:56
• NBCU’s Jen Neal on Broadcast Strategy: 11:12–14:48
• Advertising, Sponsorships, and Revenue Estimates: 15:06–18:08
• Jeff Kinney’s Balloon Experience & Economics: 21:00–32:10
• Menakee Parade Studio Tour and Construction: 35:06–39:21
• Balloonfest, Helium, and Balloon Operations: 39:21–43:09
• Permitting and City Services with Dawn Tolson: 44:16–49:51
• Sanitation, Cleanup, and Costs: 51:16–53:50
• Macy’s CEO Tony Spring on Parade Relevance/Cost Mystique: 54:45–55:57
• Preview of Macy’s Retail Future and Part 2: 56:26–56:58

---

Episode Takeaways

• The Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade is a spectacle of logistics, tradition, and brand power, delivering value both as event and broadcast, yet its precise economics remain opaque.
• The parade is vital for Macy’s identity—even as the brand’s core retail business declines—and possibly its most valuable asset.
• The episode sets the stage to explore whether this century-old parade can help sustain Macy’s into a challenging retail future.

---

For listeners who haven’t tuned in, this episode offers an eye-opening look at how tradition, commerce, and urban cooperation converge in one of America’s most enduring, but most mysterious, holiday spectacles.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amica Insurance. They say if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. When you go with Amica, you're getting coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, so they'll help look after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more. Amica has you covered. Amica. They'll help protect what matters most to you. Visit amica.com and get a quote. Today, Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast. Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. Happy Thanksgiving. The episode you're about to hear was Originally published in 2024 and it is about as Thanksgiving as it gets. We have updated facts and figures where needed. As always, thanks for listening. I really only started paying attention to the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade about 10 years ago when my family and I moved into the neighborhood where the parade starts and where the night before they stage everything. This is on the Upper west side of Manhattan. They take over two extra wide streets to lay out the giant balloons. Each balloon arrives folded up flat in its own small rolling cartoon. It gets unpacked, unfolded, laid out on the pavement, and then comes the helium. There's a truck nearby with big helium canisters stacked horizontally on a rack. Up close, the balloons are really big. You see this as soon as they start drinking up some helium and puff up to full size. But tonight is Wednesday, the night before the parade. Inflation night they call it. So the balloons aren't allowed to rise to parade height. Each one has a net thrown across the top and the net is held down by sandbags. If you happen to be passing by on foot, this can provide an unusual view of your favorite balloon character. A bulging eyeball, a massive derriere, some very chubby fingers. Many thousands of people come see the balloons on inflation night. It is an unusual and joyful scene for the visitors and the locals. For many people, myself included, it is the best New York night of the year. A lot of people who live on these blocks throw inflation parties up in their apartments and when you look straight down out of your window, you get another unusual and wonderful view of the balloons. I've watched this whole operation for several years now, and every year I'm a little bit more impressed. The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike glee. You can't help but marvel at how much planning must go into it. Also how good the execution has to be, not just from the parade side of things, but from the city side and the broadcasting side. And it's not like they have weeks or even days to set up. On Wednesday morning, the streets are normal, full of cars, trucks, jaywalkers, dogs, bikes. And then the balloon people come and you get to see the real up close version of the thing that everybody else has to watch on TV in miniature. The cleanup begins as soon as the last balloon enters the parade on Central Park West. And by the time they reach the Macy's flagship store down in Herald Square, our streets are back to cars and trucks again. Although not so many since it's still Thanksgiving morning. Like I said, it's only recently that I began paying attention to the parade. I do remember it being on TV when I was a kid, but I don't know, I guess I just wasn't a parade person. Seeing it up close made me curious. And after last year's parade, I took a look at the TV ratings. Holy more than 30 million viewers. Another 3 million plus watch in person from the sidewalks and grandstands and. But the TV numbers blew me away. As you may know, the television juggernaut these days is the National Football League. Last year, of the 100 most watched broadcasts, 72 were NFL games. Almost all the rest were presidential debates and other election programming. The Macy's parade was the only non football, non political program in the top 50. A TV audience of 30 million must generate a lot of ad revenue. And then I got to wondering how much and then I got to wondering how much it costs to produce the parade. Simple questions, right? As it turns out, not so simple. Macy's is one of the oldest department stores in the US and it has a lot of traditions. One of those traditions is not talking about the economics of its Thanksgiving parade. They like to call it their annual gift to the nation. And we all know it's not polite to ask how much a gift costs. But today on Freakonomics Radio, we ask anyway.

[Tony Spring]

Why do I need to know how much lion can cost to produce?

[Stephen Dubner]

I can't tell you that. That's. We can't talk about sensitive commercial topics out here.

[Dawn Tolson]

Oh, well, I can't say how much they pay. Could try.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is the first of a two part series. We will look into the cost of the raw materials.

[Will Koss]

We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.

[Stephen Dubner]

We'll look at how New York City pitches in.

[Dawn Tolson]

I don't know how you guys found me by the way because most people don't know I exist.

[Stephen Dubner]

We will hear from the CEO of Macy's who's trying to keep an old store alive when so much retail is dying.

[Tony Spring]

I want to be perceived as giving this gift to the city and to the nation. I also want to do a lot.

[Stephen Dubner]

Of business and we ask an industry expert what Macy's stands for today.

[Will Koss]

Macy's doesn't stand for anything today.

[Stephen Dubner]

So come along as we drink the helium and wonder if the Macy's Parade may be the most valuable asset Macy's has.

[Jen Neal]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host Stephen Dubner.

[Stephen Dubner]

We are hardly the first people to wonder how much it costs to stage the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. There are published estimates ranging from around 10 to $15 million, but they're just estimates and it's unclear where those numbers come from, which makes sense. Macy's doesn't like to talk about it and therefore it's hard to even identify all the costs. It's also hard to quantify the benefits. Keep in mind that most of the balloons and floats in the parade are sponsored by big brands that are presumably paying big money for the millions of eyeballs that will see them. And the parade itself is one big add for Macy's. But let's start by focusing on the costs. There is of course the expense of building and maintaining the balloons and floats. There is the casting and wrangling of the marching bands and other performers. And there are all sorts of city services, police and sanitation and counter terrorism that somebody's paying for. And then there are all the personnel costs for the Macy's Parade unit, which is a year round operation. So we figured we might as well.

[Will Koss]

Start at the source, Will Koss, and I'm the Executive Producer of Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what does Will Koss actually do?

[Will Koss]

The Executive Producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and float design, construction, fabrication and delivery to New York City on parade day to all of the logistics as it relates to shutting down three and a half miles of New York City on the busiest travel day in New York.

[Stephen Dubner]

Koss grew up in New York in the Bronx, and he went to college nearby On Long Island.

[Will Koss]

I traveled really far.

[Stephen Dubner]

Have you ever lived outside of the New York City area then?

[Will Koss]

I've not.

[Stephen Dubner]

Kass now lives on the Upper west side with his wife and daughter. He's 45 years old. He started out as a producer for MTV, Nickelodeon and YouTube. And he got the Macy's job in 2021. But he sounds like a lifer.

[Will Koss]

We are part of the tradition of Thanksgiving morning for millions of people. If you love marching bands, we've got that. If you love giant balloons, we've got that. We've got floats, we've got celebrity, we've been a staple. Whether you're sat in front of the television or have it on in the background, just using us as the soundtrack to your Thanksgiving morning, we're there.

[Stephen Dubner]

Macy's itself was founded in 1858 by Roland Hussey Macy, a former whaler from Nantucket. He ran dry goods stores in Massachusetts and California before settling in New York City. They sold everything from clothing and furniture to groceries and books. By 1902, according to one history of the store, the human wants were few indeed that the Macy's store could not meet. By 1924, the Macy's flagship store in Herald Square was the world's largest store with over one and a half million square feet. That year Macy's sponsored its first parade, a six mile march through through Manhattan. It featured three horse drawn floats, four professional bands and camels, elephants and bears borrowed from the Central Park Zoo in these early days, Macy's released big helium balloons into the sky after the parade and offered a $100 reward for their return. That tradition ended in 1932 when a novice pilot going for the reward crashed into a balloon. The sky. It has now been 101 years since the first parade. Although this year's edition is only the 99th since they took three years off during World War II. The parade today looks a lot different than it used to when there are 30 million people watching on. TV. Appearances matter.

[Will Koss]

We are the largest televised variety show of the year. There's something about the work that we do that connects multi generational. It's a responsibility that we don't take lightly knowing that we have that impact on so many folks.

[Jen Neal]

The demographics are far and wide and are representative of everyone that's in New York City and America, that is. Jen Neal and I oversee the strategy, the creative development and the operations for all of our live events and specials across NBCU.

[Stephen Dubner]

NBCUniversal is a network that has carried the Macy's parade for 72 years. Neil's team produces roughly three dozen big live events a year.

[Jen Neal]

Christmas at Rockefeller Center, New Year's Eve, the People's Choice Awards, red carpets around Hollywood's biggest nights like the Grammys, the Oscars. My role focuses on the entertainment side, but we have incredible teams on the sports side that do the super bowl and the Olympics.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you compare the production and coverage of the parade to the Super Bowl? I mean obviously with the super bowl there are many, many, many elements and features and so on, but it is in the end a self contained athletic competition on one big patch of turf. Whereas the parade is this roving multi mile extravaganza through New York City.

[Jen Neal]

There's incredible complexity in terms of the production. Each year there are a number of elements that stay the same and each year we are evaluating what we want to evolve and change. Do the Broadway shows kick off the show? Is it better to have them in the second or third hour? A Super bowl is incredible and there's many dynamics that go into that. But you're still covering a football game which has the same rules and the same field of play each year.

[Stephen Dubner]

What is the timeline from your end? When do you start working on a given year's parade?

[Jen Neal]

We start looking at it right after the parade ends. Truly the week or two after.

[Stephen Dubner]

The.

[Will Koss]

Parade is an 18 month pre production to execution process.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Will Koss again.

[Will Koss]

My full Macy Studios team is over 65 full time folks that range from our partnership team to our creative team to our studio production team. Logistics, project management, production management. The 65 number is our full time. As we get closer, we expand considerably.

[Jen Neal]

The week before they paint The Star on 34th Street. The Monday and Tuesday nights we shut down 34th street in front of Macy's. We're rehearsing with all the performers. Wednesday night we've introduced a countdown show to bring to life the inflation of the balloons that happen magically on the Upper west side. And then Thursday we have a call time. The day of Thanksgiving, 2am and Jen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Where do you spend parade day?

[Jen Neal]

I'm in the truck. I'm in the truck on parade day which is where? On 34th street or adjacent to 34th Street.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what's that day like for you?

[Jen Neal]

There's a lot of energy, a lot of adrenaline. We go live at 8:30 through noon. So it's three and a half hours of that coverage. We have preparation and contingencies and plans for every single thing that can happen along the way. And then I do once every parade take 30 seconds during a commercial break and jump out into the streets and see the scale of, you know, Snoopy or the Minion or the Doughboy adjacent to the buildings in New York. And it's magic.

[Stephen Dubner]

It also sounds incredibly expensive to produce from your side. Not just the coverage part, but the coordination and the run of show and talent and so on. Can you just talk about how extensive that is?

[Jen Neal]

We don't really get into the cost of everything, but what I can say is we know that this is incredibly valuable to our advertising partners and we know that advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability and likability.

[Stephen Dubner]

I did see on the NBCUniversal site a report about the power of the parade from a consumer perspective said that the year over year growth demonstrates that NBCUniversal is moving consumers down the purchase funnel. What does that mean, moving consumers down the purchase funnel?

[Jen Neal]

First, our job is we gotta make sure that this is incredibly entertaining and relevant and great tv. And second, brands want to be associated with this because their messaging is woven in and each brand takes a different strategy to do that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can you give me an example?

[Jen Neal]

When you are a Jennie O. Turkey and you want to have a turkey float, they're going to want to talk about the number of years of the big turkey spectacular and what Jennie O. Brings to you.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Well, the star of the Thanksgiving meal.

[Jen Neal]

Has arrived on a green and gold platter, the signature colors of its gracious host.

[Stephen Dubner]

Jennie O.

[Jen Neal]

If you're the Jolly Green Giant, you're going to talk about holly, traditions and some of those products.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Well, there in the valley on the.

[Jen Neal]

Farm, the green giant oversees the fall harvest, ensuring that each vegetable for your Thanksgiving table is picked at the peak of perfection.

[Stephen Dubner]

In other words, yes, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade is a parade. But unlike a memorial parade or a victory parade or a pride parade, this one is plainly a commercial venture, a marketing venture.

[Jen Neal]

If you have a Minions float, you're definitely going to talk about Stuart the Minions and the frantic bananas. Ronald McDonald, Smokey the Bear. All of these are traditions and floats that have their own unique messaging. From forest fires to fundraising for children's hospitals to the Wondership float.

[Stephen Dubner]

If I were to spec this out from a Super Bowl, I know the super bowl generates around $600 million in ad revenue. That's at an ad rate of about $7 million per 30 seconds. And that's viewership of 110 million. So significantly more than the parade. But I could imagine that the total ad revenue for the Macy's Parade might be in the neighborhood of like 100 or 150 million doll seem ballpark, or do you not know?

[Jen Neal]

You know, I'm focused on the creative side. And how are we covering this event in the best way to bring audiences at home? This extraordinary tradition?

[Stephen Dubner]

We did later find an estimate from Vivix, a company that tracks commercial ad spending. They report that brands spent $76 million to advertise on NBC during the 2023 parade broadcast. And the Wall Street Journal reports that NBC pays Macy's around 60 million do dollars to broadcast the parade. Macy's would, as the saying goes, neither confirm nor deny. And that TV revenue presumably wouldn't include money. The brands pay Macy's directly for the rights to sponsor a balloon or a float. Although we should say not every balloon or float is bringing in sponsor money because some of them are promoting Macy's itself. Here's Will Koss again.

[Will Koss]

Tom, Turkey and Santa are Macy's owned and are the iconic elements that open and close the par.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so there's no royalties being paid to the Santa Claus foundation or anything like that? I assume so. I wanna ask you about the relationships with the brands and whatever you're willing or able to tell me about the financial relationship. My wife's favorite balloon when she was a kid, she grew up in New York, was the Pillsbury Doughboy. And the first year we lived on this block, when we woke up the next morning at like 6am and we looked down, it was just this magical sight with, you know, sunrise off the balloon. And there was the Doughboy. And we could see, like, the patches. His butt was taped a little bit. And it was just so beautiful and endearing. And I thought, wait a minute, is that still the Pillsbury Doughboy? Like, does Pillsbury still even exist? Then I started to think about Snoopy. And I thought about Snoopy I knew was the emblem of MetLife for a while. And I thought, oh, does that mean it's a MetLife balloon? So let me just make it an open thread for you to tell me what you can about why the balloons that are in the parade are in the parade and how that relationship works.

[Will Koss]

Pillsbury Doughboy, Snoopy, our Peanuts characters, SpongeBob SquarePants. The goal with all of our balloons is to create a moment that's instantly recognizable in the sky. As it relates to selection of balloon. The most important goal is to ensure that each of the characters resonates with our audiences. And our audience is 1 to 100. So we have some of those. We'll call them legacy characters. And Then we have new characters that are appealing to a much younger audience.

[Stephen Dubner]

And Will, what if someone like me came to you and I said, hey, Will, I've got this brand, Freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio. In some ways, it's a pretty big brand, but, you know, it's kind of like a big niche brand. It's not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It's not, you know, Spider Man. I recognize that. But I've also got a pretty beautiful visual image, what we call an orpal, right? It's an apple that you cut open, and it's an orange in the middle, and it's, you know, it's fruit. Who doesn't like fruit? And I think it would be worth my while to try to figure out how to get my brand in front of the world. These 30 million people that watch it on TV, these 3 million that are there, would you even take a meeting with me?

[Will Koss]

We're taking the meeting right now. You're underselling the brand, my friend. We're open to taking every meeting and every conversation. This is not an exclusive members only type of event.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, maybe not quite members only, but it's a small club. Last year, there were 17 giant balloons in the parade. Sadly, the Freakonomics Orpal was not one of them, but this guy had one.

[Jeff Kinney]

I pinch myself when I see the balloon fly down the main avenue there.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Jeff Kinney.

[Jeff Kinney]

I'm an owner of an unlikely storybookstore in Plainville, Massachusetts, and I am the author of the Diary of a Wimpy Kids series.

[Stephen Dubner]

Now, for those who are children or have children who have read those books, you are somewhere between, I don't know. Jesus Christ. And pick your favorite cult hero ever. What's it been like to be you these last 15, 18 years?

[Jeff Kinney]

The ride for me has been a lot like the Truman Show. I feel like I created this character who's a stick figure, and somehow that has propelled me into the most unusual situations you could ever imagine.

[Stephen Dubner]

Kinney has written 20 books in the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series, which have sold more than 300 million. The main character of the series is named Greg Heffley.

[Jeff Kinney]

Greg Heffley is a complicated character. He's a bit of a mess. He doesn't always do the right thing. At the time that I was writing Wimpy Kid, I was reading Harry Potter, which is about a boy who's an aspirational character. He's heroic. Greg isn't heroic. He doesn't really want to hear about his best friend Raleigh's Vacation and their awesome adventures. He's like a Larry David type in a way. He's very flawed, but hopefully still lovable.

[Stephen Dubner]

Give me a little bit of the origin story of Wimpy Kid itself and Greg Heffley himself and how you brought them to life, how long it took, et cetera.

[Jeff Kinney]

My big dream was to become a newspaper cartoonist. When I was growing up, we got the Washington Post. Every morning, my father opened the paper to the comics page. So when I got up, it was already open to the far side and Bloom county and Calvin and Hobbes.

[Stephen Dubner]

You had good taste in comics.

[Jeff Kinney]

Yes. And I was like, well, I know where I want to be. I want to be at the top of that page. And so in college, I created a comic strip that got the attention of the Washington Post. They did a big full page article on the style section and said, hey, this is the next big thing, this comic by this guy. And I believed it. Then I hit the reality of shrinking newspapers and the limits of my own talent, and I couldn't break into the comics. So after about three years of bonking my head into the wall, I realized that it wasn't going to happen for me. At the time, I was keeping a journal. The journal was an organic mix of text and cartoon illustrations that kind of showed what was happening in my life at the time. I looked at it and I said, hey, maybe I've got something here. I can't be in newspapers, but maybe I can be in books. I thought, I'll fictionalize this first. I'll write down every funny thing that happened to me in my life as a kid. I thought I could do that in about two months. Instead, it took four years. It was a 77 page sketch journal, but I filled it with enough ideas for five books.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then, as I understand, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're working as a game developer for Pearson Education, and you begin to publish some of this work online on a Pearson site called funbrain.com. is that right?

[Jeff Kinney]

That's right. And my boss was looking for something to keep traffic up over the summer months. I said, hey, I'm working on this thing. It's not really for kids. It's more like the Wonder Years, where an adult is looking back on their childhood. But it could work. So I started publishing online after about a year. We had 12 million readers.

[Stephen Dubner]

Holy cow.

[Jeff Kinney]

And I got a lot of encouragement from adult readers who were following my almost blog like entries.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, and then that leads to a book contract. Just walk me quickly through the mechanics, what came first? Was there an agent? Was there a reach out from a publisher or editor?

[Jeff Kinney]

I went to New York Comic Con. I walked around with a sample packet. I heard about a guy who published a webcomic called Mom's Cancer. I talked to the editor at a booth. He said, this is exactly what we're looking for. And I was off to the races.

[Stephen Dubner]

So you wind up publishing with Harry N. Abrams, correct?

[Jeff Kinney]

Yes. At the time, Harry N. Abrams would be known as an art book publisher. So those gorgeous picture books that you have on your coffee table, primarily, they weren't doing a. A lot of this kind of thing. What I really liked was that they treated books as an object to be valued. They put a lot of craftsmanship into their publishing. And I thought, if I sign with Harry and Abrams, that might elevate the work itself. And that's the way it's been with Wimpy Kid. About two weeks after the book was published, it got on the New York Times bestseller list, which was just an absolute shock. I remember my wife and I were jumping up and down on our kid's bed like we just couldn't believe it. Now it's been on the list a combined total of something like 900 weeks.

[Stephen Dubner]

And let's now talk about how you came to intersect with the Macy's parade.

[Jeff Kinney]

In about 2010, Diary of a Wimpy Kid was doing pretty well, and we had an ambitious publicist named Jason Wells who said, hey, I think we could get a balloon in the Macy's Parade. So he approached Macy's and said, hey, how about a balloon? They said, it might not be ready for a balloon, but how about a float? The idea I remember was that there was going to be a standing Greg Heffley, and at the base of the float would be a bunch of kids reading. So it'd be a float to promote reading and literacy.

[Stephen Dubner]

Mm. That sounds a little. What's the word I'm looking for? More reverent, perhaps, than the Wimpy Kid brand is.

[Jeff Kinney]

That's right. And we said, we're going to hold out a little bit and see if we get into balloon territory and then what happens next. So the next year, I think I got named to Time magazine's most influential people list.

[Stephen Dubner]

Congratulations. And that theoretically makes you balloon worthy.

[Jeff Kinney]

Yeah, right. So Macy said, yes, please. We'd like to do giant helium balloon. And my publisher was kind enough to sign on for the terms.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tell me what you know about that negotiation and the terms of the deal.

[Jeff Kinney]

As you can probably imagine, the terms are proprietary, so I can't talk about that. But it was a multi year situation. You pay a certain amount to get the balloon made and then a certain amount to have it flown every year. That first balloon flew for three years and then we re upped and flew it for another three. And that's really the pattern we've been in for now a good long time. I have no idea what Macy's deals look like with other creators. If we're standard, if we have our own separate thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Has Harry and Abrams continued to basically pay for or subsidize the participation?

[Jeff Kinney]

To their great credit, Abrams has continued to support the balloon. This past balloon I chipped in because of course I have a big stake in this as well.

[Stephen Dubner]

Any idea what it costs to make it?

[Jeff Kinney]

I don't know what the actual costs are to make a balloon, but I would guess it's somewhere around the low $100,000 range.

[Stephen Dubner]

I guess the big question is how do you and your publisher think about ROI and all that that implies, not just, you know, whether it extends and grows the brand and sells more books and so on, but if it creates a different sort of awareness around the brand?

[Jeff Kinney]

That's a really good question. We think about it a lot. It's possible that the balloon is one of the legs of a chair. And if you kicked out that leg, maybe the whole thing collapses. The fact that Wimpy Kid is still going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that equation. But there's also some real pride that's associated with the balloon. Everybody gets to hold the string and walk down the streets of New York City.

[Stephen Dubner]

So what's that like?

[Jeff Kinney]

It's nerve wracking in a way because you're sort of presenting yourself to the world. You're saying, hey, my property is worthy of being here. I remember the first few years like we would walk the balloon down the main avenue and I think people were sort of scratching their heads, you know, what's this? Is this Charlie Brown? Who is this? And over time, one of the rewards of this has been that Wimpy Kid is sort of seeped into the cultural consciousness. So now most people know what the Cheese Touch is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Explain the Cheese Touch. For those who aren't familiar, there's a.

[Jeff Kinney]

Piece of cheese in the first book that sits under a basketball hoop. And it becomes an existential threat to Greg and to all of the middle schoolers. Everybody's worried about getting the Cheese Touch because it means, you know, certain death in the middle school popularity ranking.

[Stephen Dubner]

This year. Will be Wimpy Kid's 16th consecutive Macy's parade. That puts him on the all time leaderboard, but he's still way Behind Snoopy with 44 appearances and Pikachu with 25. Kenny told me that a balloon typically lasts three to five years. He is now on the third version.

[Jeff Kinney]

I think we've gotten better and better at it. And now Greg really looks exactly like I'd like him to look.

[Stephen Dubner]

Describe the current balloon.

[Jeff Kinney]

The current balloon has Greg sort of hunched over, getting ready to touch the piece of cheese. So I said to ma, we really need to do something special. What can we do? And they came up with an idea that the cheese itself could be in a cart or a car. That's like a motorized vehicle that could spin and sort of spew green smoke into the air to make the cheese look like it's emitting smells.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's go back for a sec. Describe the design process and how involved you are.

[Jeff Kinney]

It's really exciting. It starts with a sketch, and then it moves to kind of a pen and ink drawing. And then Macy's has to turn that into a 3D model, which is not so easy with my character. My characters are two dimensional. Purposefully, I don't have any sense of 3D space at all. And so the first time we saw a wimpy kid balloon was the first time we saw Greg Heffley articulated in three dimensions.

[Stephen Dubner]

He has a butt, right?

[Jeff Kinney]

In the early days with Macy's, I'd go down to Hoboken, New Jersey, and there would be a clay model waiting for me. The clay was still pliable. And then we would make changes on the fly with a really skilled artist. It would spin around on a pole so we could see it from every angle and really imagine what it would look like from the street level.

[Stephen Dubner]

Since Jeff Kinney's first Wimpy kid balloon, the Macy's parade studio has moved from Hoboken to nearby Menaki, New Jersey. And rather than clay, balloon modeling now is done with 3D printers. Coming up after the break, let's go to Menaaki.

[Will Koss]

Welcome to Macy's studios.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics radio is sponsored by FedEx. The new power move. You know those people who still rely on old school business Power moves like. Like showing up late to meetings because they're so busy or wearing a big shiny gold watch and making sure everyone notices. Maybe it's the person who takes long, dramatic pauses every time they speak. Because they're so profound. But let's be honest, all those old school power moves won't keep your supply chain moving smoothly. The real power move? Using Data insights from FedEx to move your business forward. Like using predictive analytics to manage your entire system supply chain or calling out logistics problems before they arise. And sitting at the forefront of business intelligence. That's how FedEx helps modern businesses stay ahead, anticipating change, rerouting around challenges and keeping everything running smoothly. FedEx the new power move Visit fedex.com new powermove to learn more. Oh hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa. So is Saldana.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Hey, can you wrap these please?

[Stephen Dubner]

Wow. IPhone 17s.

[T-Mobile Representative]

You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Stephen Dubner]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

[T-Mobile Representative]

No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or or give it as a gift.

[Stephen Dubner]

Incredible.

[T-Mobile Representative]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my Aunt Rosa.

[Stephen Dubner]

Forget that.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sounds like my family drama.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with hey where are you going?

[Stephen Dubner]

To T Mobile. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill credits if we're eligible. Board inside a cell Essentials for well qualified customers better pay plus taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge Credits ended balance due if you pay off early or cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement 256 gigabytes $830 required Visit T mobile.com hey Neighbor.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

This holiday season, Birch Lane is here to help you celebrate with friends and family. From guest ready dining tables to cozy sofas that fit the whole crew, our classic furniture and decor are crafted to last. And with fast free delivery, you can be ready for holiday hosting in days, not weeks. So you can spend time on what matters most. Its classic style for joyful living Shop Birch Lane, a Wayfair specialty brand. At birchlane.com.

[Stephen Dubner]

Will Koss, the Parade's executive producer, met us at the Macy's Parade studios in Menakee, New Jersey, just a few miles across the Hudson river from Manhattan.

[Will Koss]

This is our 3D printing room so this is Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

[Stephen Dubner]

We're looking at a three foot plastic model of Greg Heffley.

[Will Koss]

We've got our character here actually laying on a table at the moment, but if he was sitting in flight position, he'd be pointing at the stinky cheese, which will be preceding him down the line of March.

[Stephen Dubner]

We are inside a sprawling brick and glass building that from the outside looks like an office building. But Inside, it's a 72,000 square foot warehouse with 44 foot ceilings and a variety of workshop stations. It's also a little bit noisy.

[Will Koss]

The floor that we're standing on right now is our fabrication floor.

[Stephen Dubner]

As we walk through, Kas points out some floats under construction, including one representing the Bronx Zoo.

[Will Koss]

So we'll have giraffes, we'll have tigers, we'll have gorillas, birds.

[Stephen Dubner]

These giraffes and tigers are not real the way they would have been back in the beginning.

[Will Koss]

Every element that you see here being sculpted by our very, very talented artists start as a block of foam. We're going to walk over to meet the legend himself, Mr. John Chaney.

[John Chaney]

Howdy.

[Will Koss]

Good to see you. I brought some friends to talk to you.

[Stephen Dubner]

John Chaney is a carpenter who has worked on 50 Macy's parades.

[John Chaney]

I came to New York and I wanted to be an artist. I went to the Art Students League, and in a few months, I started running out of money. But my dad used to always have the parade on. And I met some girl who wanted to work in the costume shop. So I said, I'll just walk over to Macy's and see what's happening. Fifty years ago, it was a lot different than all of paperwork. Now they had this hiring rail. You got up to the rail and there were all these kids around with very nice suits and everything. And I got ripped up jeans and a T shirt on. I said, I want to work the parade. And I said, hey, he wants to work the parade. And that's how I got hired.

[Stephen Dubner]

And how does it feel for Chaney to work year round on something that'll be seen for just one day?

[John Chaney]

Well, millions of people see it, so the exposure is really great. But there is something mind boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up in one day and now taking it down. I guess that's part of the pressure. You have this incredible deadline, and we work all night in the beautiful weather because we don't even dare say that. In other words, the week before is maybe the hardest time. It's like Getting into the water, you know, once you're in there, damn it, we're doing it. I don't care what's going wrong. Let's go.

[Stephen Dubner]

Chaney is one of a couple dozen members of a team of carpenters, sculptors, welders, electricians, costume designers, and what are called balloon technicians. Here's Will Koss again.

[Will Koss]

Right now we're on the balloon balloon studio floor. Once our balloons are flattened, they make their way over to our heat sealing tables. And this is essentially a sewing machine, but instead of a needle and string, it's actually melting the two pieces together. And we actually have a balloon in process right now. This is Marshall, our paw patrol pup.

[Stephen Dubner]

Marshall is a firehouse dalmatian from the animated kids show Paw Patrol.

[Will Koss]

So Marshall is presently rigged to one of our rigging points in the ceiling.

[Stephen Dubner]

At this point, he just looks like a big white round blob with no distinguishable limbs. That's because of how these giant balloons are built.

[Will Koss]

The head right now is the chamber that's inflated. The rest of the balloon is deflated because we're working specifically on the head unit. And that's how all of our balloons are fabricated. They're fabricated into chambers, which gives us some flexibility if we do run into a situation on parade day to quickly try to remedy that one specific area without it compromising the integrity of the entire balloon.

[Stephen Dubner]

Jeff Kinney had told us earlier about a mishap with the wimpy kid balloon.

[Jeff Kinney]

Yeah, I think Greg's hand popped this last year and it looked a little bit sad, but these things happen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Marshall the dalmatian was a new balloon in last year's parade, one of six. All the new balloons needed to have a dry run outdoors before the parade.

[Will Koss]

Our volunteers, our balloon handlers, and our flight management team have an opportunity to see the balloons working in real time and reacting in wind conditions and take notes and prepare for Thanksgiving Day.

[Stephen Dubner]

This dry run is called Balloonfest. It happens in the parking lot of MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey, about four miles from the Macy's studio in Menaaki. Balloonfest is always held on the first Saturday of November.

[Jen Neal]

Good morning, everyone.

[Dawn Tolson]

Welcome to Balloon Fest.

[Stephen Dubner]

There are several hundred volunteers to handle the balloons. On parade day, there will be 5,000 parade volunteers. Okay, I need 20 handlers. The six new balloons, including Marshall and Minnie Mouse and a new spider man. They are already inflated and held down under a net with sandbags. When the time comes, the sandbags are taken away, the nets are pulled off, and the volunteers slowly unroll the Thin ropes that are attached to what they call the handling bones, which are plastic X shaped grips. Once the balloons are up in the air, the volunteers walk them around the parking lot. Will Koss is paying close attention. Everything looks good. Nearby is the helium truck. Here's the helium guy. The trailer is about 40ft long. There are 12 high pressure steel tubes in there. If you could get all the helium out of each one of those tubes, you could fill about six to eight of these balloons with a single trailer. His name is Kevin Lynch. I'm the vice president of global helium for Messer. Messer is one of the big players in the helium market. It and the companies it has acquired have been providing helium to the Macy's parade for decades. The helium that's here today started in an underground helium reservoir in Amarillo, Texas. And here we are filling balloons. But if you put too much helium in it, that whole crew of people would be, you know, rising up into the sky. Lynch tells us that each giant balloon takes around 15,000 cubic feet of helium. So how much does that cost Macy's? I can't tell you that. We can't talk about sensitive commercial topics out here. The price of helium itself is not a particularly sensitive topic. Helium is used widely in medical settings and elsewhere, and there's a strong global market for it. Believe it or not, giant balloons consume only a tiny share of the helium market. We did a rough calculation of what it would cost to fill the 17 balloons in last year's parade. If you paid market price, it was about $425,000. I asked Will Koss if this sounded about right, but he wouldn't take the bait. I also asked him what Macy's does about the occasional helium shortage.

[Will Koss]

We do have our finger on the pulse of helium. It's a market that adjusts over time, but we plan for it and we have good relationships with our vendors across our helium supply teams.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's your biggest concern or anxiety or, you know, the thing on your to do list that keeps you up the night before? I guess I would assume the weather, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Will Koss]

The weather is definitely a concern for us. We are a rain or shine event. So unless there's significant weather that would impact the flight of the balloons.

[Stephen Dubner]

Wind particularly. Yeah, yeah.

[Will Koss]

Wind is one of the most potential risks on our overall parade. We've had some snow in our history. I don't wish that on us. I've been fortunate enough to have relatively good weather. I know my time is coming at some point.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's probably Good for the broadcast though, isn't it? Snow?

[Will Koss]

It would look beautiful. But we do still have to get 5,000 people and 27 floats and 17 large balloons down the parade route. So I'd love it to snow at 12 o' clock one. How about that? Or 11:59.

[Stephen Dubner]

So far we've heard from the key people who create and broadcast the Macy's Parade. But there is one more partner, sort of a silent partner without whom it could not happen.

[Dawn Tolson]

If there were no permits, it would be a free for all.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by FedEx. The new power move. You know those people who still rely on old school business power moves? Like showing up late to meetings because they're so busy. Or wearing a big shiny gold watch and making sure everyone notices. Maybe it's the person who takes long dramatic pauses every time they speak because they're so profound. But let's be honest, all those old school powers moves won't keep your supply chain moving smoothly. The real power move? Using Data insights from FedEx to move your business forward. Like using predictive analytics to manage your entire supply chain. Or calling out logistics problems before they arise. And sitting at the forefront of business intelligence. That's how FedEx helps modern businesses stay ahead, anticipating change, rerouting around challenges, and keeping everything running smoothly. The new power move. Visit fedex.com newpowermove to learn more.

[Dawn Tolson]

Oh, hey.

[Stephen Dubner]

Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa. So we Saldana.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Hey, can you wrap these please?

[Stephen Dubner]

Wow. IPhone 17s.

[T-Mobile Representative]

You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Stephen Dubner]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

[T-Mobile Representative]

No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

[Stephen Dubner]

Incredible.

[T-Mobile Representative]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my Aunt Rosa.

[Jen Neal]

Forget that.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sounds like my family drama.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

[Stephen Dubner]

T Mobile. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch. Plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible board ins on essentials for well qualified customers bought our pay plus taxes fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off early or cancel contact us. Finance Agreement $256GB$830 required visit t mobile.com.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Hey Neighbor Celebrate the holidays with Birch Lane. Our timeless furniture and decor are delivered for free in days not weeks. Its classic style for joyful living. Shop Birch Lane a Wayfair specialty [e-mail].

[Stephen Dubner]

Yes there are giant character balloons drifting through the sky. And yes, there are floats and marching bands, Broadway performers. But the real star of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, if we're being honest. Come on, you know who it is. It's New York City.

[Dawn Tolson]

My name is Dawn Tolson and I'm the Executive Director of Citywide Event Coordination and Management and the Street Activity Permit Office. And those are a lot of words.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tolson has worked in New York City government for more than a decade. Her office issues permits for many types of events, street fairs and farmers markets, festivals, and of course the Macy's Parade. We told her we were trying to put together the costs of the parade and she did give us a little bit of pricing information.

[Dawn Tolson]

An application fee is non refundable and that's $25. And then it ranges from zero, no cost whatsoever, up to something that could be 66k per block depending on the use of space and the impact.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Macy's parade uses 40 plus blocks and it is undeniably high impact. Does that mean that Macy's pays the city something like $3,000,000? 40 some blocks times 66k per block?

[Dawn Tolson]

Oh, I can't say how much they pay. Could try. Macy's is a partner with the city. They put on two very iconic events in New York City that are birthdays and holiday events for America.

[Stephen Dubner]

The other one she's talking about is the Macy's fourth of July fireworks, which no offense to fireworks, is nowhere near as big a deal as the parade.

[Dawn Tolson]

And so we know the importance of that and we work with them. But I can say that they do work really hard with us to make sure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources that we're using, that we're not overextending, that we're also being fair to the employees and the workers.

[Stephen Dubner]

When Tolson talks about the resources the city is using, these are serious resources, including law enforcement and emergency crews. Here is Will Koss again from Macy's.

[Will Koss]

The security plan is a quite detailed.

[Stephen Dubner]

Plan you could imagine if you were throwing a parade for three and a half million people on the sidewalks and 30 million people watching a live broadcast that you would invest a lot in security planning and execution.

[Will Koss]

There's a variety of personnel that are visible on the parade route and other layers of security that are less visible.

[Dawn Tolson]

Hats off to the NYPD. There are people out there that were there since 1am in the morning putting barricades in place and moving vehicles around so you don't even hear a car honking. Then you've got, you know, counterterrorism working with the FBI on any kind of threats. You've got taru, their technical assistance unit, who are doing the counter drone stuff with the FBI. And then you've got the dcpi, their press group, doing press conferences with their chief of departments and Chief of patrols. So basically you're enacting the entire nypd.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what does it cost to enact the entire NYPD and how much of that comes from Macy's? The parade, for all its goodwill and vibes, is a commercial event. So you could imagine Macy's contributing heavily to the city services. On the other hand, even if you don't buy my argument that New York City is the real star of the show, the city does get a lot out of the parade. When I was a kid and saw the parade on tv, I barely noticed the floats and balloons. I was staring at Central park west to a farm boy, which is what I was. The balloons and floats were cute, but the fantasy was New York. So does New York City kick in all those resources for free for the Macy's parade? Does the cost of the permit itself cover all these services? Those are questions that no one would directly answer on either the city side or the Macy's side. And there are other city resources to talk about other city agencies that get involved.

[Dawn Tolson]

We have four walkthroughs with all of those agencies, as in we're walking the route four times. In New York City, the city of Scaffolding, there's a lot of obstructions along the path and so we have to walk that path to see what construction's going on, what potholes are in the street, what is up above street lamps.

[Stephen Dubner]

For instance, in 1997, the parade was held on a very windy day at Central Park west and 72nd Street. The six story tall cat in the hat balloon hit a lamppost and knocked off part of it. Several people were injured, including one woman who was in a coma for 24 days. Macy's and the city now work together to prevent that kind of thing will Koss again.

[Will Koss]

All of our balloons and floats starting up at 77th street and all the way through 34th Street. That entire parade route has to be cleared of any aerial obstruction.

[Stephen Dubner]

This clearing process includes what Kaas calls light swings.

[Will Koss]

We have a team to physically move all of the light poles out of the way so they're loosening them and then we're actually swinging all of the polls. It's done.

[Stephen Dubner]

Under the dark of night and Dawn Tolson again.

[Dawn Tolson]

Sanitation. We haven't even talked about sanitation. I didn't know this until a couple years ago that there's a special unit that deals with the horse refuse.

[Stephen Dubner]

This horse refuse comes from the NYPD and Parks Department mounted units that march in the parade.

[Dawn Tolson]

So we forgot to call them. One year. It was not pretty.

[Jen Neal]

One of our responsibilities is to clean up the horse poop.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Jessica Tisch. When we spoke with her, she was New York's sanitation commissioner.

[Jen Neal]

We have one to two sanitation workers for every four to five horses.

[Stephen Dubner]

Tish is now commissioner of the New York Police Department. As sanitation commissioner, her job was to make the parade route as photogenic as possible on Thanksgiving Day, from 8:30am Eastern Time until noon, those streets, about 42.

[Jen Neal]

Blocks, they need to sparkle because New Yorkers and people from around the world all converge on that part of the city. And we want those streets to look really good after. The parade is obviously a huge effort. We have about 150 sanitation workers who are involved in the post parade cleanup. They are doing manual cleaning with brooms and baskets. But also our mechanical brooms, which can sweep 1500 pounds of litter, are out in full force. About 71,000 pounds of trash is collected by the Department of Sanitation as part of the cleanup of the Thanksgiving Day parade.

[Stephen Dubner]

Once again, we couldn't learn anything significant about how these costs are allocated or perhaps shared. New York City plainly derives value from the parade. There's the marketing value of the broadcast, but also three and a half million in person. Spectators generate a lot of economic activity. How much? Those numbers, too, are shock of shocks hard to come by? If we began this episode hoping to run even a rough cost benefit analysis of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, we have failed. Too many of the costs are privately held. We can guesstimate the overall TV ad revenues, but we don't know how that money is split between Macy's and NBC and whatever agencies or other middlemen are involved. So we took one more shot. We asked to speak to the man.

[Tony Spring]

At the top, Tony Spring, chairman and CEO of Macy's Inc.

[Stephen Dubner]

So Macy's refers to the parade as, quote, a privately sponsored and privately funded event and is regarded by Macy's as a its annual gift to the nation. I understand that, as with most gifts, you don't tell people how much the gift costs when you're giving it to them. But why is it so important that no one knows how much the parade costs? Because we've been trying to figure it out and really failing.

[Tony Spring]

Why do I need to know how much Lion King cost to produce?

[Stephen Dubner]

But I can figure that out.

[Tony Spring]

Okay, go to the Hayden Planetarium. And what did it cost?

[Stephen Dubner]

I can figure that one out too. Tony, I can't figure out the parade.

[Tony Spring]

I guarantee you, you're bright enough, much brighter than me, you can figure this out. But I would like to focus more on the fact that, you know, a hundred years later, this thing is still relevant. And it's a great example of if we were still marching animals up and down the street, it wouldn't be as relevant today. But the fact that it evolved over time and includes a level of modernity, includes a level of history. Floats that have been there over the years, floats that are new this year, balloons that are new this year. That is just like the fireworks, I think, what makes it such an amazing spectacular?

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so the Macy's parade is still relevant. Here's a bigger question, especially for Tony. Is Macy's still relevant? Coming up next time in part two of our series, brick and mortar retail has been declining for years and Macy's is planning to close 100 of their stores. Spring took over a year ago and he is pushing for a renaissance. At least he is optimistic.

[Tony Spring]

Now is the time to buy Macy's.

[Stephen Dubner]

Next time we go deep with Tony Spring and we get another view too. Macy's has a hell of a challenge.

[Will Koss]

Over the next few years to remain upright, let alone become successful as they once were.

[Stephen Dubner]

We all also visit Wimpy Kid author Jeff Kinney up in Massachusetts, where he is trying to launch his own retail renaissance.

[Jeff Kinney]

If you invest in your downtown, can you change the fate of a town? And I don't know the answer to that.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Alina Coleman and edited by Ellen Frankman. It was mixed by Jason Gambrell with help from Eleanor Osborne. We also had recording help from Alexander Overington, and special thanks to Thomas Recupero for the research paper and to Harlan Coben. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Hilaria Montenacort, Jeremy Johnston, Jasmine Klinger, Morgan Levy, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra.

[Dawn Tolson]

When I see a crowd, I'm thinking to myself wait a minute, did I issue a permit for that?

[Jen Neal]

The Freakonomics Radio Network the Hidden side of Everything.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stitcher.

[Will Koss]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy Live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Dawn Tolson]

You can listen Listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more.

[Jen Neal]

Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Hey neighbor. This holiday season, Birch Lane is here to help you celebrate with friends and family. From guest ready dining tables to cozy sofas that fit the whole crew, our classic furniture and decor are crafted to last and with fast free delivery, you can be ready for holiday hosting in days, not weeks. So you can spend time on what matters most. Its classic style for joyful living shop Birch Lane, a Wayfair specialty [e-mail] if.

[Jen Neal]

You'Re looking for new ways to get ahead, then you're our kind of person. We're Udemy and we help learners like you Upskill in AI, productivity, leadership and management and more. Learn at your own pace from real world experts. You can also prep for certifications that show employers what you know upskill for the career you [e-mail]. now back to your regularly scheduled listening.