Podcast Summary: Freakonomics Radio - "What Do Medieval Nuns and Bo Jackson Have in Common? (Update)"

Release Date: June 25, 2025
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Produced by: Katherine Wells, updated by Dalvin Abuaji
Produced for: Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Introduction to the Episode

In this intriguing bonus episode, Stephen Dubner delves into the unexpected similarities between medieval nuns and the legendary athlete Bo Jackson. Originally aired in 2013, this updated version explores the theme of spite and its manifestations across different contexts—from historical acts of martyrdom to modern-day economic behaviors.

Segment 1: Medieval Nuns and the Origin of "Cutting Off Your Nose to Spite Your Face"

Key Discussion Points:

• Historical Account of Saint Ebba:
  Stephen Dubner recounts the harrowing story of Saint Ebba, a medieval nun who, faced with barbarian attacks, mutilated herself by cutting off her nose and upper lip. This act of self-harm was intended to preserve the chastity of the nunnery and deter the attackers.

• Quote Highlight:
  “The abbess, with an heroic spirit, took a razor and with it cut off her nose, together with her upper lip unto the teeth...”
  – Lisi Oliver [03:07]

• Implications of Self-Mutilation:
  Dubner ponders the extreme measures taken by nuns like Saint Ebba, questioning whether such acts were genuine expressions of martyrdom or rooted in spite—a desire to punish others even at great personal cost.

Segment 2: Understanding Spite Through Economics

Key Discussion Points:

• Definition of Spite:
  The episode transitions into an economic analysis of spite. Spite is characterized as actions taken to harm others even when it is costly to oneself, diverging from traditional economic models that emphasize self-interest.

• Expert Insights:

  • Steve Levitt:
    “When I think about spite, as an economist, the way I would think of spite is that it is the response of an individual who has been wronged in some way by another...”
    – Steve Levitt [06:16]

  • Benedikt Hermann:
    “Spite as a behavior where an individual is ready to harm him or herself at own cost, to harm somebody else without creating anything good for a third party...”
    – Benedikt Hermann [07:14]

• Ultimatum Game Experiment:
  Levitt explains the ultimatum game, an economic experiment demonstrating that individuals often reject unfair offers despite personal loss, indicating actions that align with spiteful behavior.

  • Steve Levitt on Ultimatum Game:
    “Empirically, what we see is that rarely will anyone accept an offer that's less than 20%.”
    – Steve Levitt [09:34]

• Benedikt Hermann's Experiments:
  Hermann conducted experiments revealing that approximately 10% of participants would sacrifice their own gains to harm others, labeling these individuals as "difference maximizers."

Segment 3: Spite in Real-World Contexts

Key Discussion Points:

• Case Study: Bo Jackson's NFL Draft Decision:
  The episode draws parallels between medieval acts of spite and Bo Jackson's controversial decision to reject a lucrative NFL contract to pursue a baseball career.

  • Bo Jackson's Story:
    After being drafted first overall by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the NFL with a $7.66 million contract, Jackson chose to sign with the Kansas City Royals for a significantly lower bonus, a move seen as spiteful toward the Buccaneers.

  • Quote Highlight:
    “It's interesting because I think Bo would say that he did the honorable thing and that he has a code.”
    – Dave O'Connor [24:15]

  • Impact of the Decision:
    O'Connor suggests that Jackson's choice adversely affected the Buccaneers by forfeiting a top draft pick and showcased the broader implications of spiteful decisions in high-stakes environments.

Segment 4: The Nature of Spite and Human Behavior

Key Discussion Points:

• Biological vs. Learned Behavior:
  The discussion shifts to whether spite is an innate human trait or a behavior learned through societal interactions.

• E.O. Wilson's Insights:
  Biologist E.O. Wilson, as presented by Katherine Wells, asserts that true spite—hurting others without any personal gain—is virtually non-existent in the animal kingdom and rare in humans.

  • Quote Highlight:
    “If we define spite as doing harm to someone else at the cost of harm to yourself... That might not exist in nature.”
    – Bo Jackson [32:29]

• Altruism vs. Spite:
  The conversation compares spite to altruism, suggesting that both may be driven by underlying self-interest, such as emotional satisfaction.

  • Steve Levitt on Altruism and Spite:
    “Altruism is exactly the flip side of spite in the sense that there are acts which very well could be altruistic, but equally could be done in a perfectly self-interested way.”
    – Steve Levitt [39:18]

• Human Complexity:
  Bo Jackson emphasizes the conflicted nature of humans, balancing moral impulses with selfish tendencies, suggesting that true spite may not be a distinct motivator but part of a broader spectrum of human emotions and actions.

  • Bo Jackson:
    “We are constantly wrestling with our conscience and with a tendency to deviate from social norms in a risky way and to do wrong, to be selfish.”
    – Bo Jackson [36:09]

Segment 5: Conclusion and Reflections

Key Discussion Points:

• Reevaluating Spite:
  The episode concludes by challenging the notion of spite as an independent motivator, proposing that actions perceived as spiteful may have underlying self-serving motivations.

• Personal Satisfaction from Actions:
  Both altruistic and seemingly spiteful actions may derive from personal satisfaction, blurring the lines between pure self-interest and genuine desire to harm or help others.

• Final Thoughts:
  Stephen Dubner reflects on the insights shared, underscoring the complexity of human motivations and the difficulty in categorizing behaviors strictly as spiteful or altruistic.

  • Steve Levitt's Perspective:
    “Forget about what's going on inside of other people's heads. You'll probably never know what it is and focus on what they're actually doing.”
    – Steve Levitt [38:34]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Lisi Oliver on Medieval Nuns: “The abbess, with an heroic spirit, took a razor and with it cut off her nose, together with her upper lip unto the teeth...”
   – [03:07]

2. Steve Levitt on Spite in Economics: “When I think about spite, as an economist, the way I would think of spite is that it is the response of an individual who has been wronged...”
   – [06:16]

3. Benedikt Hermann on Defining Spite: “Spite as a behavior where an individual is ready to harm him or herself at own cost, to harm somebody else without creating anything good for a third party...”
   – [07:14]

4. Steve Levitt Explaining the Ultimatum Game: “Empirically, what we see is that rarely will anyone accept an offer that's less than 20%.”
   – [09:34]

5. Bo Jackson on Human Nature: “We are constantly wrestling with our conscience and with a tendency to deviate from social norms in a risky way and to do wrong, to be selfish.”
   – [36:09]

6. Steve Levitt on Altruism vs. Spite: “Altruism is exactly the flip side of spite...”
   – [39:18]

Conclusion

This episode of Freakonomics Radio offers a fascinating exploration of spite, juxtaposing historical acts of valor with modern economic behaviors. By examining both medieval strategies for survival and contemporary economic experiments, Dubner and his experts shed light on the intricate motivations that drive humans to act against their own interests to harm others. The discussions challenge listeners to rethink traditional economic models and consider the deeper, often subconscious factors influencing human behavior.

Further Resources

• Podcast Archive: Accessible on any podcast app or via freakonomics.com, which also hosts transcripts and show notes.
• Related Episodes:
  • "What It's Like to Be Middle Aged in the Middle Ages"
  • "People I Mostly Admire" with Steve Levitt

Produced by:
Katherine Wells
Updated by: Dalvin Abuaji
Mixed by: Jasmine Klinger

Freakonomics Radio Network Staff:
Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jeremy Johnston, Morgan Levy, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jones Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski.

Theme Song: "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers
Composer: Luis Guerra

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to focus solely on the core discussions and insights presented in the episode.