Why Cooking is Caregiving, with Chef Hillary Sterling | Better in Person

Summary

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Freakonomics Radio: Why Cooking is Caregiving, with Chef Hillary Sterling | Better in Person

Release Date: July 22, 2026
Host: Stephen J. Dubner
Guest: Hilary Sterling, Executive Chef at Ci Siamo, NYC

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of Better in Person, author and host Stephen J. Dubner sits down with acclaimed chef Hilary Sterling in the kitchen of her notable New York restaurant, Ci Siamo. Exploring Sterling's trajectory from a Brooklyn childhood to culinary leadership, the discussion delves into the emotional resonance of cooking, the realities of professional kitchens, and why cooking is fundamentally an act of caregiving. The conversation, as lively as it is insightful, weaves together stories of mentorship, challenges, authentic teaching, and the personal touch that defines Sterling's cooking philosophy.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

Entering the Kitchen: Debunking Myths, Embracing Fire

• Opening banter about chef stereotypes: Sterling quickly dismisses the urban legend of chefs retaliating when food is sent back.
  • “I've never seen it. No. And that's fucking stupid. Like that, like, come on." —Hilary Sterling (00:45)
• Live-fire Italian cooking at Ci Siamo: Sterling demonstrates the joys and hazards of working with fire, showing off scars and kitchen war stories.
  • “If you have burns, that means you're not paying attention.” —Hilary Sterling (02:10)

Senses and Imperfection in Cooking

• Sensory cooking demonstration: Sterling teaches Dubner about using sound, touch, and intuition to make pasta, highlighting the craft’s physicality.
  • “We teach people how to make pasta with their eyes closed sometimes." —Hilary Sterling (03:11)
• Taste test: fresh vs. dried pasta: An honest discussion about texture, imperfection, and guest expectations.
  • “Fresh pasta does not taste as good as dried pasta. It's delicious, don't get me wrong. But I think because the texture is different…” —Interviewer (04:01)

Cooking as Connection and Memory

• Dubner makes fish stew for Sterling: A candid and lighthearted moment as Sterling reveals her dislike of soup and raw garlic—a revelation that leads to teasing and reflection.
  • “I don’t like soup. But I’m okay with clam chowder.” —Hilary Sterling (05:50)
• Food and nostalgia: Sterling connects the stew to her grandmother’s cooking, prompting a discussion about family, forgiveness, and childhood tastes.
  • “It actually reminds me of something… my grandmother would have totally made 100%.” —Hilary Sterling (07:52)

Family Roots and Culinary Beginnings

• An unconventional food upbringing: Sterling jokes about her mother’s reliance on Wonder Bread and canned foods, suggesting her pursuit of texture and craft stemmed from early deprivation.
  • “She fed us cream cheese sandwiches on Wonder bread and applesauce. So why do you think I'm afraid of texture? And that's why I'm a chef." —Hilary Sterling (10:16)
• First restaurant job at 14: Summers in the Montauk fishing village ignited a lasting love for food and the water.
  • “I love the water. I love sharks. I wanted to be a marine biologist and I think instead I end up cooking them.” —Hilary Sterling (12:37)

Growth, Struggle, and Teaching

• Surviving kitchen hardships: Sterling discusses early jobs and the culture of kitchen “torture”, emphasizing resilience and never considering quitting, even under extreme pressure.
  • “Quitting has never crossed my mind. I've never left a job because someone tortured me. I've left because it was time." —Hilary Sterling (15:56)
• Learning from mistakes: A formative story about overcooking pork tenderloins at Mesa Grill and the advice “be one with the pork” that became a personal mantra.
  • “He’s like, you have seven days to be one with the pork.” —Sterling's chef, as recounted by Sterling (18:18)
• The value of connecting with food: Sterling emphasizes trusting her senses over strict recipes or thermometers, fostering deeper intuition.
  • “You have to connect with it. … That was a moment that the senses kind of like, I finally understood. I started to understand what cooking was.” —Hilary Sterling (21:16)

Cooking as Caregiving and Creative Expression

• Why cook professionally? Sterling sees her role as a caregiver, relishing feeding friends and family and striving to be both teacher and nurturer.
  • “I feel like I'm a caregiver. … I enjoy all those things. I think that, like, I've always been that way.” —Hilary Sterling (21:42)
• Processes, fairness, and mentorship: Sterling describes her managerial style as “fair, a little insane,” emphasizing transparency, direct teaching, and support.
  • “Let me show you why. Let me tell you how, and then let’s do it together, okay?” —Hilary Sterling (30:03)
• Teaching practical skills: From breaking down lobsters to setting up kitchen stations, she underlines the importance of clear, supportive instruction.

Leadership, Success, and Integrity

• Turning down prestige: Sterling recounts being courted for the chef role at Union Square Cafe, but declining to stay true to her voice and creative freedom.
  • "I'm never gonna be me here.” —Hilary Sterling (25:06)
• Why Ci Siamo works: Success comes from authenticity, honesty, and not “trying too hard.”
  • “I think we were being honest with who we were, and I wasn't trying too hard.” —Hilary Sterling (28:39)
• Empowering staff: She talks about cultivating fairness and understanding, adapting from a childhood where “nothing was fair.”
• On reviews and failure: Sterling’s honest appraisal of harsh criticism—initial hurt, later realizing the reviewer was right, and moving forward with renewed clarity.
  • “I think I was thinking too hard. I was trying too hard, and I was also cooking American food. I don't know how to cook American food. Let's be real. … There's no soul. I need a story.” —Hilary Sterling (35:17)

The Italy Connection: Soul, Simplicity, and Story

• Finding home in Italian cuisine: Italy provided Sterling both a culinary refuge and creative inspiration—seeking the wisdom of “Nonna’s” and honoring regional diversity.
• Love of Italian food culture: Sterling lauds the daily rituals, quality ingredients, and the preservation of tradition against industrialization.
  • “...the guy over there made the mozzarella, the guy over there grew the tomatoes, and you made the pizza. That, to me, is why food is so special.” —Hilary Sterling (37:20)
• Changing Italian-American perceptions: Her mission is to widen understanding of Italian cuisine beyond American stereotypes.

The Business of Cooking

• Economic pressures: Sterling unpacks the daily negotiation over ingredients, labor, and the relentless puzzle of keeping a restaurant afloat.
  • “We have to make sure that we're ordering correctly, spending the right amount of money on food. Negotiating is a huge thing. … we do that over the course of the year, every day at some point.” —Hilary Sterling (38:18)
• Balancing dreams and realities: Despite achieving the “golden mean” (doing what she loves and making it work), she candidly acknowledges that more money wouldn’t hurt.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 00:45 | Hilary Sterling | "I've never seen it. No. And that's fucking stupid." | | 02:10 | Hilary Sterling | "If you have burns, that means you're not paying attention." | | 03:11 | Hilary Sterling | "We teach people how to make pasta with their eyes closed sometimes."| | 04:01 | Interviewer | "Fresh pasta does not taste as good as dried pasta. It's delicious, don’t get me wrong. But I think because the texture is different..." | | 05:50 | Hilary Sterling | "I don’t like soup. But I’m okay with clam chowder." | | 07:52 | Hilary Sterling | "It actually reminds me of something… my grandmother would have totally made 100%." | | 10:16 | Hilary Sterling | "She fed us cream cheese sandwiches on Wonder bread and applesauce. So why do you think I'm afraid of texture? And that's why I'm a chef." | | 12:37 | Hilary Sterling | "I love the water. I love sharks. I wanted to be a marine biologist and I think instead I end up cooking them." | | 18:18 | Sterling’s chef (via Sterling) | "You have seven days to be one with the pork." | | 21:16 | Hilary Sterling | "That was a moment that the senses kind of like, I finally understood. I started to understand what cooking was." | | 21:42 | Hilary Sterling | "I feel like I'm a caregiver. … I enjoy all those things. I think that, like, I've always been that way." | | 25:06 | Hilary Sterling | "I'm never gonna be me here." | | 28:39 | Hilary Sterling | "I think we were being honest with who we were, and I wasn't trying too hard." | | 30:03 | Hilary Sterling | "Let me show you why. Let me tell you how, and then let’s do it together, okay?" | | 35:17 | Hilary Sterling | "I think I was thinking too hard. I was trying too hard, and I was also cooking American food. I don't know how to cook American food. Let's be real. … There's no soul. I need a story." | | 37:20 | Hilary Sterling | "...the guy over there made the mozzarella, the guy over there grew the tomatoes, and you made the pizza. That, to me, is why food is so special." | | 38:18 | Hilary Sterling | "We have to make sure that we're ordering correctly, spending the right amount of money on food. Negotiating is a huge thing. … we do that over the course of the year, every day at some point." |

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:45: Sterling debunks kitchen myths; intro to live-fire cooking.
• 03:11–04:45: Pasta-making demonstration, tasting, and sensory approach to food.
• 05:47–08:38: Fish stew scene – food as memory; Sterling reflects on family tastes.
• 10:16–14:04: Sterling’s childhood and first jobs, discovering love for food.
• 15:27–19:22: Early kitchen hardships, “be one with the pork,” the importance of failure and growth.
• 21:42–22:11: Cooking as caregiving; personal fulfillment in feeding others.
• 25:03–26:30: Turning down Union Square Cafe; the quest for authenticity.
• 28:39–32:09: Leadership style, mentorship, and fairness in a high-pressure kitchen.
• 33:23–35:41: Handling bad reviews, learning from mistakes, and re-centering on culinary joy and storytelling.
• 35:51–39:16: Italy as inspiration; commitment to tradition and regional specificity.
• 39:53–41:09: Living the dream: ambition, contentment, and the rare achievement of doing fulfilling work.

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Tone and Language

The episode is candid, energetic, and peppered with good-natured ribbing, self-deprecating humor, and the intimacy of two food lovers swapping stories. Sterling's language is blunt but warm—equal parts chef, mentor, and Brooklyn native—while Dubner brings curiosity and admiration.

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Final Insights

• Cooking is more than technique—it’s the art of caring, a sensory practice, and an emotional gift.
• Mistakes and setbacks are vital learning opportunities—what matters is resilience and authenticity.
• Mentorship is best done hands-on, with honesty, fairness, and a touch of humor.
• True culinary creativity springs from making food that tells a story and honors tradition, not just chases trends or recipes.

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Listen to the Full Episode

For more high-def insight and to see the kitchen in action, check out the Better in Person video series on the Freakonomics YouTube channel.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. This is the second episode of a new video interview show we've just launched called Better in Person. If you'd rather watch it, which I would suggest you do, that's what it was made for. It is on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. But we're also happy to provide this podcast version of Better In Person for your ears only. As always, thanks for listening.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

When people send back food, the whole rumor of a chef spitting, please.

[Hilary Sterling]

I've never seen it. No. And that's fucking stupid. Like that, like, come on. Okay. This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and Hilary Sterling.

[Stephen Dubner]

There aren't many things in this world that you absolutely need to survive and which also bring great pleasure.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Food is one of them. For some people, it is so pleasurable to cook.

[Stephen Dubner]

For others that they build a career out of it. But it is a relentlessly demanding way

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

to make a living.

[Stephen Dubner]

I recently met a chef who doesn't seem to have lost the pleasure of cooking. Hilary Sterling is executive chef at cisiamo, a big, successful, very loud kitchen in New York City. She was born and raised in Brooklyn and she built her career in New York restaurants like Bobby Flay's, Mesa Grill and the Michelin starred Avoche. So when Hilary invited me into the kitchen at Chisiamo, I, of course said yes. And I had barely finished saying hello before she threw me right into the fire.

[Hilary Sterling]

Can you give me the torch, Chris?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Hey, can you give me the torch?

[Stephen Dubner]

Hillary leads me over to the big wood fired oven and hands me the blowtorch to start today's cook. Fire.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, I love a flamethrower.

[Stephen Dubner]

Chisiamo celebrated live fire. Italian cooking and fire is fun. Until it's not.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Can I see your hands? How burned are you? I mean, not, not.

[Hilary Sterling]

No, the burn. If you have burns, that means you're not paying attention.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Do you remember that burn?

[Hilary Sterling]

I do. I remember all of them.

[Stephen Dubner]

Sterling points to a scar just above her right wrist.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I mean, this one.

[Hilary Sterling]

This one right here. Yeah, it was in 2003. It was in the oven at Mesa Grill.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

This one.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What were you making?

[Hilary Sterling]

I was reaching in the oven for my pork tenderloins and the guy next to me, Carlos, we were both reaching in at the same time and I moved over so he could get his steak or whatever out of the oven and I hit inside there's like bars inside the oven. That's what that was.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So you learned a very important lesson that day.

[Hilary Sterling]

Stop being so polite.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah. Does it work? Does politeness work in a kitchen? I would think you have to really be a little bit strong headed. Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

Back then it was a little different. But it took about a year for Carlos and I to work well together. And I loved working with him the other two years after that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hilary now shows me how she makes cacio e pepe two ways. With fresh pasta and with dried pasta. Before we taste, she asks me to listen as she tosses it in the pan.

[Hilary Sterling]

There we go. See that noise? That's what I'm looking for. We teach people how to make pasta with their eyes closed sometimes. Oh, it's pretty.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

It's an erotic endeavor, isn't it? I mean, the whole thing about it.

[Hilary Sterling]

I can say it, but yes. But I teach them how to cook.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

By using their senses.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And that's my fault. What's wrong with that?

[Hilary Sterling]

Well, people. Humans are imperfect, Right? So. And guests do not want things that are imperfect.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, now for a taste off between the fresh pasta and the dry. I try the dry pasta first.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I mean, does it taste like yours? I'm doing right now what everybody I've ever seen eating on a food show does on tv. Because what can you do other than say, mmm, but it's really good. So what I like is that the pepperiness is intense and constant. Really, really good.

[Hilary Sterling]

Eat that one. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And next up, that was the fresh. It doesn't taste as good. I hate to say it. Fresh pasta does not taste as good as dried pasta. It's delicious, don't get me wrong. But I think because the texture is different, which. So it made it kind of easy to tell. I like the al dente and I think the al dente is more fun with the emulsion of cheese and butter. Agree 100%. Yeah. This feels weirdly. The homemade feels more kind of like food that I would make. Is it like not very, like, kind of a little bit mushy? No offense once again.

[Hilary Sterling]

Can I have a fork? You just call my pasta mushy.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

This is really good.

[Stephen Dubner]

Thanks.

[Hilary Sterling]

I like making pasta. I should do it for a living.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I like eating.

[Stephen Dubner]

Since Hilary Sterling cooked for me, I decided to return the favor by making her a hearty fish stew.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

It's a lot of fish. Oh, God, it smells so good. Okay, I'm not gonna lie. This is a good looking fish stew.

[Stephen Dubner]

When she arrived for our conversation, I had the stew ready to go.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And I was excited to share it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Cause who doesn't like a nice fish stew? I brought her into the kitchen so she could see it simmering on the stove.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I was so moved that you fed me so well, so generously that I wanted to make something for you. And this is a little. I made a fish stew. What do you think? You're just laughing at my stew. That's what I fear most.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah, it looks delicious.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, either A, it looks terrible, B, you're not hungry. C, you don't like fish. Or D, you're insulted by stew.

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I. I have this thing about soup I really like.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You don't like soup?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I don't like soup. But I'm okay with clam chowder.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

This is like clam chowder, except it's fish. And what kind of fish?

[Hilary Sterling]

I'm a little hesitant. Do you hate fish also? No, I love fish, love fish.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So I buy fish for the stew from Fresh Direct, who sell fish cubes.

[Hilary Sterling]

Fish cubes. I'm sorry, you're not selling me here by any means with fish cubes, too? I'm sorry.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hilary has just published her first cookbook called Amazah. And it has a recipe for garlic confit. So I added a little something else to the table that I thought she might like.

[Hilary Sterling]

What's that?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

That's tum. You know, tum. T O U m, garlic. Like garlic. Whipped. Whipped raw garlic.

[Hilary Sterling]

Whipped raw garlic.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I think that's what it is. I first discovered it, but I didn't actually make this. But I thought this might go good on our bear bread.

[Hilary Sterling]

Wow, that's gonna be. That's gonna be powerful. I'm really nervous.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You're regretting ever agreeing to come here?

[Hilary Sterling]

No. Cause my head's spinning of, like, how many things did everyone tell you that I don't like?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What else don't you like, though, other than soup? Is it just soup?

[Hilary Sterling]

It's pretty much just soup, soup and, like, raw garlic.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Raw gar.

[Stephen Dubner]

No worries. I ladled the soup into the bowls.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'm gonna give you a very small serving.

[Hilary Sterling]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, you're welcome. And you don't have to finish it. And I wanna make sure you get a little bit of fish. That's not too cubist.

[Hilary Sterling]

Well, I mean, your presentation, though. I mean, those little potatoes, are they canned potatoes or regular? You cook them.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'm so insulted. I'm so insulted they're not canned. I didn't actually know you get canned potatoes.

[Hilary Sterling]

My mom used to serve them to

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

me all the Time.

[Hilary Sterling]

Really?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

No, everything.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

No, this. Deeply from scratch with total love.

[Hilary Sterling]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

The only thing I didn't do is to find out how much you hate soup.

[Stephen Dubner]

She takes her first bite.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, no, that's right.

[Hilary Sterling]

Sorry. Really? It actually reminds me of something like that. My grandmother would have totally made 100%, because she would definitely.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Did you love your grandmother?

[Hilary Sterling]

Very much so.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And did you forgive her for making food that you maybe didn't love?

[Hilary Sterling]

I didn't know I didn't love it.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You only know now that you don't love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think three bites is really sufficient to show that you're.

[Hilary Sterling]

I've had two.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Two is good. Would you like some bread?

[Hilary Sterling]

I ate a potato. I love potatoes.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'm clearing.

[Hilary Sterling]

It was delicious.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Hilary Sterling]

But I can get past this. It's delicious. I mean, I had a third bite. I feel. I don't want you to feel rejected.

[Stephen Dubner]

I don't think I could have made something that Hilary Sterling hated more if I had tried. I guess feeding someone isn't just about how something tastes. It's about how it makes them feel. Maybe what it makes them remember. So I fix Hillary a cocktail, which she does like, and we sit down in my living room to talk.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What's funny, I think, is your mind works totally different than mine. Cause I'm always trying to categorize, and you're just trying to synthesize, I think.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, yeah, I just. I want to dissect.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I want to organize. Okay. You want to create. All right, we're done. Okay, great. All right, question. Say your name and what you do.

[Hilary Sterling]

Sure. Full name.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Full. How many names are there? Is there a middle name?

[Hilary Sterling]

There is, but I won't. I don't need to do that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'd like to know.

[Hilary Sterling]

You want to know? There's also a stupid story behind it which is not in the book for a reason. My middle name is Jean.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Hilary Sterling]

And my mom named me after her Aunt Jean. But it turns out the cat's name was Jean and her name was Minnie.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So your mom was just wrong about who was named who in the family?

[Hilary Sterling]

Yes. Okay, but is it.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, let me try to ask this

[Hilary Sterling]

just to paint that picture of my mom.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Let me try to ask this in the most polite way possible. In what way would you say your family is atypical?

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Do you want to just describe.

[Hilary Sterling]

You should try to be polite about this.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You don't have to be polite.

[Hilary Sterling]

My mom's still alive. I have to Be polite. Sorry. It's okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Don't apologize.

[Hilary Sterling]

She's like. She fed us cream cheese sandwiches on Wonder bread and applesauce. So why do you think I'm afraid of texture?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I understand.

[Hilary Sterling]

And that's why I'm a chef.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So it was your mom that ruined my fish chowder?

[Stephen Dubner]

Really?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

If you go back to it.

[Hilary Sterling]

Well, she would never have made that. She would open a can of Minute Progresso and then.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

But she fed you too much mush.

[Hilary Sterling]

Too much mush. I mean, canned potatoes on brisket. What was called. Not brisket. It was called, like, London broil. Whichever, whatever that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

London. Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

I don't even know what cut of meat that is.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

It's still around. It looks like a brick. Yeah, it's got.

[Hilary Sterling]

And there's, like, no fat, and it was just, like, dry with canned potatoes and that lipped in, like, French onion soup mix.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do most chefs that you know, did they grow up eating so poorly?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I think I'm somewhat of an anomaly in that realm because of. I think a lot of chefs today, especially now, they had access to all that they had good restaurants.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

Like, Sheepshot Bay wasn't the capital of, like, cuisine here, like, in Brooklyn, by any means. And, like, so I think this was my, like, search of something.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Tell me life story. But quickly.

[Hilary Sterling]

Born and raised. Same house my dad grew up in. My grandparents bought it in the 40s, and they lived downstairs in the basement, which was. I always think about this as so fucked up that we put them in the basement and we lived upstairs, like it was their house.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And what was it like growing up with your grandparents?

[Hilary Sterling]

It was awesome. The house smelled different when they were there. My grandparents were, like, these really, really fun individuals. They would go to. They would. They just loved life or it appeared so. I mean, they argued, like, every other couple, and very loudly, and it was really funny. But, like, they just. They appreciated what they had.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

When did you begin to think that you might want to make food for a living?

[Hilary Sterling]

I worked in restaurants at 14.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Where?

[Hilary Sterling]

In Montauk, because I could walk there.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What was Montauk like? Just a fishing village.

[Hilary Sterling]

It was an amazing fishing village, and

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

you spent all your summers there. Oh, so that explains a lot about you, I think. You love the water, I understand.

[Hilary Sterling]

I love the water.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You love sharks.

[Hilary Sterling]

I love sharks.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What is that? See, I knew everything about you except that you don't like suit.

[Hilary Sterling]

I can't believe no one mentioned that, like, all those three people know how I feel.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I tell ya, maybe they did. And Somehow, subconsciously, I thought, you know, maybe they're wrong.

[Hilary Sterling]

I love the water. I love sharks. I wanted to be a marine biologist and I think instead I end up cooking them. So it's just kind of like this reverse.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

No, wait a minute. When you say them, you don't mean you don't serve shark?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, but I love the water. I love going to the Coney island aquarium was like my favorite thing as a kid.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So if I didn't know that you were a chef, if I just met you on a plane or something and we were having a conversation like this, and just the way that you look, I would think you're a creative artist of some kind, maybe a writer, theater director. I think the fact that you seem that indicates what kind of chef you are. And I think that's why I like your chefing, is because you think about food and cooking, even for 400 people, the way that I like my artists to think. And I sense that that's not the norm in the restaurant world. But maybe I'm wrong. Tell me.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, I think so every chef just wants a 40 seat restaurant. No one wakes up and says, man, I want to cook for this many people today.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Why is 40 the right number?

[Hilary Sterling]

It's an easier number. You can do things that you can't do at four levels.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Say, so explain.

[Hilary Sterling]

You could make something so beautifully and small and perfect and like, because you only have to cook 10 of them, I have to cook a hundred of something. So in order. So I don't mind doing volume. I've done Michelin star stuff. I've done volume. I've done rustic. I've worked at a beachside cafe. Like, you name it, I've done that spectrum. And I think the food now I cook is probably the best I've ever cooked because I'm so. I allow the rusticity of it to come into play.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What does that mean?

[Stephen Dubner]

Allow?

[Hilary Sterling]

It means like, I don't need a hat for like a gnocchi. Like, it doesn't need that. Let's just make the best gnocchi we can make.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah. And you're also. One thing I learned when I visited you is that you seem to use senses as much as science. Let's put it that way.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yes, more so. More so because I think people are in touch with like, I think there's so much noise out there that if you tune it all out and just focus on what you're doing, you'll hear that noise of the pan, like when we made pasta, and then like squeezing A lemon. It's like this like crazy thing. It's like an interview question. I was like, how do you like. I do not. If someone wants to put lemon juice in a squeeze bottle, you're not connecting with the lemon to dress the salad.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Do you feel that serving people food is kind of way up there on the scale of great things to do as a human? Because it must feel like you're, you know, part of the life sustaining force or something.

[Hilary Sterling]

That's also immediate gratification. Right. You're getting immediate feedback too. Right? So like you're. You can see. It's like when people manage. We're managing in real time. You're serving in real time. There's no like. And it's kind of. I enjoy thinking and on my feet. And this is kind of an industry that accepts that where I can also say things that I probably shouldn't say sometimes because it just comes out and I'm like, ah, that was probably a bad idea.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Like I hate your soup kind of thing.

[Hilary Sterling]

I didn't say that once. I was actually complimented you on your soup.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

When you start at the bottom. What were you doing the first few years?

[Hilary Sterling]

Salads, fry. Washing dishes sometimes. I had a chef that likes to use every pot and made me wash them. Torture me.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You talked about being tortured in a foreign language for a while.

[Hilary Sterling]

It was just an Irish brogue. I couldn't understand it for shed. I was like, what? And then they like, hold up this bread, like, go get this downstairs. And it was terrible. They made me peel onions in the basement with no ventilation.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Most people, I assume, would have quit.

[Hilary Sterling]

It never crossed my mind. Quitting has never crossed my mind. I've never left a job because someone tortured me. I've left because it was time.

[Stephen Dubner]

Fair enough.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

But if you could rewind the clock or if you could remake the clock now and run restaurants differently. Because everything I've ever read about restaurants in the kind of heyday of New York restaurant, modern heyday of restaurant culture, it sounds like everybody was tortured and everybody was miserable and everybody drank all the time and other things, et cetera, et cetera. And so is that how cisiamo is run? No.

[Hilary Sterling]

Restaurants used to be like that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of industries, to be fair, were.

[Hilary Sterling]

I used to have kegs in my office on Fridays.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's the drinking. But what about, like the people being mean in the culture of coming up? Did you experience that or not so much?

[Hilary Sterling]

I guess I didn't.

[Stephen Dubner]

You just didn't care.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah, right.

[Hilary Sterling]

I Mean, I think I was more. I remember, like, the only times that I, like, cried and it had nothing to do with people.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

All right, what was it?

[Hilary Sterling]

There was one time where I was my first night on saute at Mesa Grill, and it was Labor Day, Sunday night.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Big deal restaurant.

[Hilary Sterling]

It was a big, big restaurant and big deal. And I overcooked a hundred and something pork tenderloins for hours. I just kept fucking overcooking them one at a time.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Like, how many?

[Hilary Sterling]

Maybe four at a time, five at a time. I just, like, hammered it. And my chef at the time gave me, like, a two pan pickup, which means, like, I had to, like, pick up this, like, scallop dish and the accompaniment to it.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Hilary Sterling]

And I had two burners. Okay, two burners. But it wasn't the only dish I was cooking. I was cooking portendo limes. And my first night, like, really on saute. And Sunday nights in New York City on a holiday weekend is a busy night. And I just remember getting crushed for hours. Crushed. And I called my dad from Union Square and I told him about it, and I was like, totally. Like, he's like, you're okay. It's okay. I mean, I held myself together. And then I like, totally. I mean, the walk in's always a good place to cry in restaurants, but, like. And he's like, okay. And I went back in the next day and I went to my chef and I apologized for overcooking. 120.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Did any of them get sent back?

[Hilary Sterling]

I don't remember. It was kind of like a blur. And then the next week, the schedule goes up. Old school on a wall, you know, And I'm on saute next Saturday night, and I was like, oh, my God, someone was on vacation. So they put me there. And I was like, okay. And I go to him and I was like, are you sure? And he's like, you have seven days to be one with the pork.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, I remember that from your book, Be One with the Pork. Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

I was like, I'm gay. Like, this is poor.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And you became one with the pork.

[Hilary Sterling]

I. I stared at these pork tenderloins for days. Cooking them, watching them, staring at the clock, trying to figure out how long it takes to cook the pork tenderloin to perfection. It has, like, ancho chili rubbed. Like your hands were red at the end of the shift. Like, there was like a nub bucket. It was just, what's a nub bucket? It was like you cut off the ends and you put it in the nub. And then you just.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What happens to the nubs?

[Hilary Sterling]

I can't. Don't ask.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Are they used?

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, no, but they're used in like family meal or everyone. Like, we made tacos, whatever.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Hilary Sterling]

There's like.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And like, you say, no, they're not used except for what the other people working here are gonna eat later.

[Hilary Sterling]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yep.

[Hilary Sterling]

And I spend seven days staring at pork tenderloins.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And before you're on saute again, the second time, you're prepping.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah. I was like. He's like, I'm giving you a chance.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Staring at them. You mean you're going into the.

[Hilary Sterling]

I'm putting them in the oven. I'm searing them. I'm watching what happens. So this was at.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'm practicing.

[Hilary Sterling]

I'm practicing and I'm watching. They change. There's a moment where, like, when I. Cause in my head, I'm like, be one with the pork. What does that mean?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, my God.

[Hilary Sterling]

Be one with the pork. I'm so, like, literal at that time as a cook, I'm like, yes, Chef. Be one with the pork. Like. And I remember there was a little clock in the kitchen. It was like right there. And I pulled the pork out and it was like, four minutes. Check the timer. Four minutes, five minutes. Check the timer, Check the timer. And like, twist, twist, twist. And at one point, there was a moment where they glistened. This may sound so bananas. Wow. Are you sure you want to keep doing this today? Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

They're glistening at you. Do you feel like they're glistening at you or with you? Are you glistening?

[Hilary Sterling]

I'm glistening now. Talking about it.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What did the glistening.

[Hilary Sterling]

It meant it was ready.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh.

[Hilary Sterling]

Oh. It meant it was ready. It finally showed me how me to cook this mid rare pork tenderloin.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So I hate to sound naive, but isn't that what like, thermometers and whatnot are for? No, seriously. Because you're right. In the last, like 30 years, I feel like cooking has become extremely regimented.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Not just. It's exploded. Everybody wants to cook.

[Hilary Sterling]

Everyone can cook.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And I think it's fantastic. Personally, I don't do much, only cause it's time consuming. If I had all day, I would love to. It's such a fun science project that you get to eat at the end.

[Hilary Sterling]

Agreed.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

But I also feel like we've been told by so many people who at least present with authority that this is the way something is done always. And if you don't, then you're making a lesser version. But the story I hear you telling Is very, very different. It's like food is real. We're real.

[Hilary Sterling]

It's real. And you have to connect with it. You have to understand it because. Yeah. Could I have used the thermometer? Sure. But 25 years ago, that chef didn't say, hey, where's your thermometer? It wasn't even like, it didn't even cross your mind. But no one showed me how to cook the pork right. So, like, this, like, conversation is like, I had to learn how to do this myself.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

And it was really. It was really. And that was a moment that the senses kind of like, I finally understood. I started to understand what cooking was.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I see. Okay. And what is it about you, either in your character or maybe in your. Someone that you admired when you were a kid? Like, what is. What was it about you that made you want to be that, to be giving people food as you're living? Not just as sustenance, not just as pleasure, but of all the things that it represents.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, I feel like I'm a caregiver. I feel like that's what it stems from.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Right.

[Hilary Sterling]

Like, I take care of people, you know, I love nothing more than making my son's lunch and dinner. Like, I really enjoy setting the plate up. I enjoy all those things. I think that, like, I've always been that way and I cook for friends in high school and like in college and like that kind of stuff. I've always enjoyed playing that role.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

If this hadn't worked out, what do you think you'd be doing?

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, I love teaching, but that's kind of like how I am now. I don't think 25 years ago I would have done that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You strike me as that. You would have been an impatient teacher back then because you're fast. I can see your brain and your mouth, they move, which I love.

[Hilary Sterling]

But yeah, I would have been impatient. I'd be like, I don't understand why you don't understand. What do you mean? Be one with the pork. Right? I wish. I don't think that chef ever understands how much that silly statement resonated with me over all these years.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Is he alive?

[Hilary Sterling]

He is.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You'll send him the book?

[Hilary Sterling]

I will.

[Stephen Dubner]

This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. Chat GPT work moves beyond answers into

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

getting real work done.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's a new experience in ChatGPT for bigger multi step projects across web, mobile and desktop. You can give ChatGPT work a goal and have it gather context, choose an approach, create the output, and continue iterating all while you stay in control. It can help turn messy inputs into useful outputs like briefs, spreadsheets, dashboards, presentations, prototypes, types, landing pages, and workflows. You can even ask ChatGPT work to take on entire workflows with a single request.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Here's an example.

[Stephen Dubner]

It can turn customer research into a campaign brief. Use that brief to create marketing assets and adapt those assets for different markets, carrying context through every step. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Cisiamo is one of around 20 restaurants under the umbrella of the Union Square Hospitality Group, which was founded by Danny Meyer. You may know Meyer from Shake Shack, which is a separate operation. Union Square is known for putting hospitality at the center of New York restaurant culture.

[Hilary Sterling]

He's one of those people that we all look up to, right? He opened up restaurants in Union Square 40 years ago, 30 years ago. And sitting at the bar of Gramercy just brings you so much joy. It doesn't matter what you're eating, it doesn't matter. Just walking in the door, it exudes warmth. And like, it just says, please come in and celebrate whatever you want to celebrate. Or just have a drink and hang out and the floor, like, just like everything about the details in that restaurant. That restaurant has more of an impact on me than Union Square Cafe did. But I went to Union Square Cafe as a young cook and appreciating the seasonality of it and the March adjustments.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You just go in and sit at the bar and eat by yourself.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah, I love eating by myself.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

This was at the old Union Square Cafe.

[Hilary Sterling]

The old one, yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I heard that you were actually offered the job to take over Union Square Cafe.

[Hilary Sterling]

I was. I wouldn't say I had the job offer. I spoke with them about the job.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

The people who told me this sounded as though they wanted you for the job and they were a little surprised that you didn't take the job.

[Hilary Sterling]

I think everyone was surprised that I didn't take the job. And I was surprised too.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So why didn't you?

[Hilary Sterling]

Long story, short story, long story. I sat in that dining room and I. Cause I like to eat dinner at places before I took a job. Obviously. This is more of that, like, you know, thing where I have to, like, feel the walls and be a part of it and like, what is it telling me? I must sound so crazy. But, like, I sat there and the white table cloth and the food was delicious. And I was like, I'm never gonna be me here.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

It's Too formal. Ish for you?

[Hilary Sterling]

Not even necessarily formal, but there was such a history to it that I felt like I couldn't rewrite that history with my own voice.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Literally, like, in the menu, you wouldn't have been able. There are things on the menu that people know Union Square for, and they need to be there. Is it that some of them you weren't crazy about making or.

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I don't mind doing that. I think I was in a phase in my career that I wanted to be able to figure out who I really was and allow myself to unfold that as opposed to, like, putting myself into a parameters in a box that I didn't create.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So you needed to run your own show.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, so where were you working when you were offered the Union Square job?

[Hilary Sterling]

I was running Vicks on Great. Jones Street.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay. So that. And you were having a lot of success there. People loved you there. Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

I opened it. I got to create. I got to build that box. Right. That I wanted to be in. And I felt like going back to a job that I didn't feel like was the right fit for me at that time.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Got it.

[Hilary Sterling]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Even though it would have been prestigious, if you tell people you're amazing.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah. It took a lot to tell, to say no. I was like. I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm about to say no to Danny Meyer.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What was his response?

[Hilary Sterling]

I think they understood my feelings, and obviously, we kept up a relationship over the years.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I assume Chisiamo with Danny Meyer wouldn't have happened had you not known him like that through Union Square.

[Hilary Sterling]

I would guess so. I mean, that's. So I heard that they were opening this restaurant, and I called them, and I knew when I made the phone call that whatever it was gonna be, I was gonna have to say yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Oh, because you can't say no to them twice.

[Hilary Sterling]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So if they had said, it's a falafel shop.

[Hilary Sterling]

Love it. Love falafel. Here I am. I am. I'm gonna make it. Falafel's falafel, actually, you know. Yeah. I was like, whatever you want me to cook. I'm. Cause once I made that, because I remember the conversation, I called Richard Crane. Danny's, like, number one, and he's like, are you sure? Like, basically, it was just like, we're not doing this again.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Wait, wait, wait. Ciciamo represents something which is Italy, but a different way of presenting Italy.

[Hilary Sterling]

Cissimo is honoring Italian food, but also my New York background. So, like, the rainbow cookies, that's the prime example of something that is Italian. But also my, like, going to Knapp street bakery and getting those cookies and realizing that I thought they were amazing, but they actually were not. And they probably were in the counter for, like, years.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

They probably had some amazing oil from some country you've never heard of.

[Hilary Sterling]

Oh, yeah. And like, some food coloring that was like, so bad.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Can I explain why your hair is so curly? I've wondered.

[Hilary Sterling]

So curly.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, sorry. Rainbow cookies. Ciciamo. But also presenting Italy as a place with many, many, many different regions and ideas and so on.

[Hilary Sterling]

And we highlight all regions. And I don't. I guess sometimes I really still put. Understand that people think Italian American food is Italian. And I think what we're trying to do is kind of like, change that little bit of that perspective. And I've been trying to do that for 15 years now.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Did you know it would be successful when you started this restaurant?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I sat in that dining room and being like, no one's coming here. No one is coming. Like, what did I do? I was, like, freaking out, like, for weeks on end.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So why was it successful, do you think?

[Hilary Sterling]

I think we were being honest with who we were, and I wasn't trying too hard.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

How would you describe yourself as a boss? Like, if we were to. How many employees do you have? Must be over 170. Well, 70.

[Hilary Sterling]

In the kitchen.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

In the kitchen. 70.

[Hilary Sterling]

You can interview the front of the house too.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, so if we talk to all of them and we made a word cloud, what adjective do you think would be biggest?

[Hilary Sterling]

Fair.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Hilary Sterling]

A little insane.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, fair.

[Stephen Dubner]

Little insane.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Soup lover.

[Hilary Sterling]

Soup lover throughout.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And how hard do you have to work to be fair? Or does it come naturally to you?

[Hilary Sterling]

I think it comes more naturally now than it did.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What do you mean by that?

[Hilary Sterling]

I think I did grow up in that environment where it wasn't, like, nothing was fair, you know, so sometimes you have to, like, kind of turn that back off and shut and be like. Cause these people that work at Cheese Family, they work so hard and they love it and they are, you know, involved in every aspect of it. Being fair to them and understanding what their needs are are just as important as my needs.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So how do you a, you know, execut a kitchen like that every day and be fair and also teach? Because you always talk about yourself as a teacher in the kitchen. People are coming to you with different skill levels and so on. How do you do all that with and have high standards, presumably? How do you do all that without being a dictator, though.

[Hilary Sterling]

It's a great question. There's never, like, a, you do this because I told you so. Let me show you why. Let me tell you how, and then let's do it together, okay? And sometimes those steps are pretty fast. They might be all in the same sentence, but it's about, like, let me. You know, I've definitely told cooks to close their eyes and to listen and to stop and, like, to hit reset. And it's about, like, you know, you walk by someone doing something wrong, you just have to tell them to fix it. Like, that's one of those things that, like, we can't wait a month to tell someone they're shitty. Yeah, right. Like, you're not doing something because you don't know how. But my job is to teach you and to stop what I'm doing. And I stop all the time dead in my tracks. I watched somebody the other day doing something that was so wrong and almost dangerous. I was like, let's put that down.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Let's hear your actual tone of voice, if you can.

[Hilary Sterling]

I basically almost mocked them a little bit. Be like, what are you doing? You know, like, let's stop this, and let me show you how to do it correctly. And then let's do it together.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay? I mean, I would love that if you were my teacher.

[Hilary Sterling]

And then the cook said, thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Right?

[Hilary Sterling]

And that was the difference. He wasn't. He knew I was joking with him to be like. Cause I could see him struggling, and I was like. And then I looked at my sous chef and was like, if you see someone struggling, like, why? Why are you gonna allow him to struggle?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What was the answer to that question?

[Hilary Sterling]

He didn't have an answer. A good enough one. And then I showed him how to do it too. It was probably just because he didn't. He wasn't as strong.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What were they doing wrong?

[Hilary Sterling]

They were breaking down lobsters.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What's the right way to break down a lobster?

[Hilary Sterling]

What's the right way? I mean, we have lobsters hiding somewhere.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

There's one under your couch.

[Hilary Sterling]

Let me just grab this pillow and let me get that for you.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'm gonna fire the person that didn't have lobsters.

[Hilary Sterling]

Well, there's a way. You have to kill them, cook them, and then it's that cleaning, that last stage. And no one wants to do the knuckles, right? But, like, so when I teach someone how to do something, it's about putting your knife down the least amount of times, and then everything should be in a round robin. Formation.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Got it.

[Hilary Sterling]

Your knife, your container, your. This, whatever. Ask them if they're right handed or left handed. We start with that conversation. So we break the ice a little bit here, and then we set up a station so that they never. They're always doing something in a fluid motion.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Got it.

[Hilary Sterling]

So, like, head tear.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Got it.

[Hilary Sterling]

Like, that kind of stuff.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, so it strikes me, and I may be wrong, but tell me. It strikes me that you are particularly good at that kind of teaching. Like, it sounds to me like you're good at teaching process and, you know, actual step. Because it's a physical thing. You need to do it. I just think of you as someone who basically learned to cook by cooking a lot. A lot.

[Stephen Dubner]

A lot.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

A lot of different things.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I think that some people do, but these days, a lot of people go straight from high school or college to culinary school and then come to a restaurant like yours. And I'm just wondering how someone like that is different from someone like you who has learned to solve every problem for yourself.

[Hilary Sterling]

Essentially, they have to be hungry if they just went to culinary school as a band aid.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You don't mean hungry to eat food. You mean hungry to.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean hungry to, like, be me. Right?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

Like, I ask a lot of cooks on their interview, do you want to be a chef or do you want to be a cook? You got to tell me, and then I can guide you. Do you want to own your own restaurant? What do you want to do?

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I see how many say they want to own a restaurant a lot, and

[Hilary Sterling]

I'm like, are you sure? I follow that up with a lot. Like, you sure? And I'm like. And then I ask where. They're like, in New York City. I was like, okay, all right.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

One of the hardest things about opening a restaurant, running a restaurant in New York City.

[Hilary Sterling]

Opinions, reviewers.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You had a couple bad ones, didn't you, Way back when?

[Hilary Sterling]

Way back when. I did.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Beatrice Enzo.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah. I had. Yeah. Come on.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I can't quote it by, but. So what was that like?

[Hilary Sterling]

Oh, it was terrible. And, you know, I read the review back many years later, and he was right. And that was like, the crazy part.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Did you write him a note?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, but I got my revenge with Cisiamo, and I got to talk to him on the phone. I didn't bring him in.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

He came in, you gave him a little botulism. What do you mean by revenge?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, he gave me an amazing review, and I got to talk to him, and he put us on all these lists, and he basically, you Know, and I've always wanted to write him a note, you know, and I should. Right. Like, yeah, you destroyed me. And then I had to build myself back up.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

When you say destroyed.

[Hilary Sterling]

This was my first chef job, and it gave me zero stars.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I mean, did you lose the job as a result?

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I left the job eventually.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

You left it, but on your own.

[Hilary Sterling]

On my own.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So when you say destroyed, you describe what that feels like mentally. And I just want to know, like, with cooking at the level. At the level you do and the pace you do, I would imagine that it's heavily a mental game as well, just as sports can be or.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And so I wonder with cooking, what it's like, how much of it is a mental game. But especially when you talk about being destroyed like that, did it mean that you felt you were no good anymore?

[Hilary Sterling]

It definitely made me, like, take a step back, and it was embarrassing, obviously. And then I, like, you know, when we got that review, I had to walk back in the kitchen and look at my team and pump them up for the night.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Right.

[Hilary Sterling]

And still do that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What'd you say?

[Hilary Sterling]

It was, you know, it was hard because they all believed in me.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

And I had let them down, essentially. Right. They believed in what we were doing. They believed in our food. They believed in that, like, job and.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

But you said when you read it back later that he was right. What were you doing wrong?

[Hilary Sterling]

I think I was thinking too hard. I was trying too hard, and I was also cooking American food. I don't know how to cook American food. Let's be real. Like, I just had to accept that I do not know how to cook American food. And he's right. I didn't.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And, like, I've been cooking American food for.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, I had cooked American food, but I don't know how to cook American food. There's no soul. I need a story.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I see.

[Hilary Sterling]

I need a story. I need a place. I need something that gets me inspired. American food.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay, so tell us your Italy story. So from what I've read, from what you've written and what I've heard about you, you just kind of found your sole place in a way when it comes to food in Italy. Is that about right?

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And you went over there, and you just started going to towns and asking for the grandmas to teach you how to cook stuff.

[Hilary Sterling]

I definitely looked for Nonna's.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah, you really did this.

[Hilary Sterling]

I.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So this was when you were aware

[Hilary Sterling]

in your career there was a couple different points, and Italy was always my spot where If I was like, needed to hide from something, I'd go to Italy. If I needed to escape, I'd go to Italy. I'm going to go for a weekend.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

How's your time?

[Hilary Sterling]

Terrible. But, I mean, I can get by with words and restaurants and food.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

What's so great about Italy? No, I'm serious.

[Hilary Sterling]

No, I'm not going to answer that.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

No, I'm serious about that question because. No, no, no. Cause you've essentially devoted your life to cooking Italian food.

[Hilary Sterling]

Essentially. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

But I think there are a lot of people not essentially. You've devoted your life to cooking Italian food. Yes. So for people who may think of Italian food as a narrower version of through the American Prism, what is so great about Italy and Italian food? Like, you love everything about it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Well, that's what I want, though. I want you to talk to me about that.

[Hilary Sterling]

I want that espresso in the morning. I want that noise that the espresso makes, and I want the cornetti that's served on this plate. That it's okay to eat a fucking puff pastry every morning. And I don't gain weight for some reason. I don't know how. I love being able to sit and have pasta and wine at lunch without, like, someone telling you that's not okay. And I also really appreciate that they still believe in using the best products.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Hilary Sterling]

Like, you know, the guy over there made the mozzarella, the guy over there grew the tomatoes, and you made the pizza like that, to me, is why food is so special.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Why did the industrialized food domination not take over Italy the way it did the U.S. i mean, don't be fooled.

[Hilary Sterling]

It definitely has. But there's also still these small pockets of people that still really, truly won't let that happen because it's, you know, they're not looking for money. They don't want to grow. They want to do what they've done their whole lives and just make that special.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Let's just talk about the economics of running a restaurant. It just strikes me as a puzzle that you have to solve. Exactly. Exactly.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

To even have a chance at succeeding.

[Hilary Sterling]

Agreed.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yeah. So what's for people who don't know the industry? What's so hard about it? What are some of the many things you have to kind of figure out financially and else wise?

[Hilary Sterling]

So if you really dig into the majority of where you're spending money on is food, wine, and labor to purchase all of those things. So we basically control all the spending.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Right.

[Hilary Sterling]

We have to make sure that we're Ordering correctly, spending the right amount of money on food. Negotiating is a huge thing.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

And you do that yourself.

[Hilary Sterling]

I do it myself.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Give me, for instance, what's the latest food negotiation you've had?

[Hilary Sterling]

I needed tuna for Thanksgiving. We were doing this tuna crudo that I really enjoyed, and I was really excited about it, but I needed some good tuna.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

How much tuna were you looking for?

[Hilary Sterling]

I need, like, 40 pounds of tuna.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Hilary Sterling]

I probably should have had 50. We got a little tight at the end of the day. Thanksgiving was a little rogue this year, and I basically called every fish preparer we have. I said, I need 50 pounds of tuna tomorrow. What's your price? And waited for all them to get back to me, and then I said, okay, can you do this, this, and this? And I basically went back to the ones I like better than others. One of my favorites the other day texted me, like, 11 o' clock at night. Why aren't you ordering for me? And I was like, delete. No, thank you. Like, that's not. You're becoming emotional. Please. I order tuna. What is the big deal? So basically, then I go back to the guy and say, I want this. Can you do that for me? And we do that over the course of the year, every day at some point.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Got it. So that's a special order. What about your staple stuff, like cipollini on.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah, we talked about chipolini. So last year we spent 20. We bought £28,000 of cipollinis. So I went back to every purveyor and said, I bought £28,000 of chipolinis. Do you want my chipolini business? And we do that with our. I know, it's crazy. You want my cipollini business. We did it to the rabbit farmer, too, which I felt a little bad about. Six thousand rabbits died so that I could make pasta last year. Like, that's just like.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So you've been building to the ciciamo moment your whole life. Now you're here, does it feel the way you hoped it would feel?

[Hilary Sterling]

I still think I'm a cook some days, and I think that's something that's like, you know. Yeah. It's crazy that that book's sitting right there.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Right. How big do you want to be? Cause you seem like you might be at the precipice of being a real celebrity chef, which I'm sure to most people from the outside seems awesome. But celebrity is a weird thing, as I'm sure you know. So I'm curious how you think about

[Stephen Dubner]

the size that you would like to be.

[Hilary Sterling]

I don't think about the size. I think about what's next. Right. So we're opening another restaurant. We're doing the book. Right. If I can touch more people in getting them to cook with their senses and getting them to actually take a minute to pause and reset and like, capturing them.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So that's what you're after. You're after teaching people to cook with their senses.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I'll be honest with you. That fish chowder, I hate to keep bringing up. I cooked it with all my senses. But you seem appreciative of that. You're getting to do the thing you want to do in a way that you want to do it. I am, 100%, and that's rare in this world, you know, I mean, I know people who make a lot of money and hate themselves for what they do. I know people who do what they love and can't make it work for them. And you kind of got the golden mean, it seems.

[Hilary Sterling]

I mean, I could use to make more money, but, like, it's fine.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Cheers to you, Hillary Sterling. This is a blast. Thank you.

[Hilary Sterling]

Cheers.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Hilary Sterling, everybody. And there's plenty of fish chowder for everybody, so come on in.

[Stephen Dubner]

Thank you so much for checking out this audio episode of Better in Person. But remember, this is a video show, and if you want to see it in all its high def glory, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel and let us know what you think. Our email is betterinpersonreconomics.com or radioeconomics.com and you can see the full credits at the end of every video episode on YouTube. We will be back soon right here with more Freakonomics radio and more Better In Person audio. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So how do you squeeze a lemon into, let's say, a fish chowder?

[Hilary Sterling]

This way.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

I thought you do this way. So seeds don't. How do you get seeds?

[Hilary Sterling]

They have little hats on them. Back to the hat thing. So we cover each lemon every day.

[Stephen Dubner]

Day.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

So that they more like a diaper than a hat.

[Hilary Sterling]

Yeah, like a net. A hair net.

[Interviewer (possibly Stephen Dubner or a co-host)]

Yes. Diaper is probably not a great restaurant connotation.

[Stephen Dubner]

Thanks again to ChatGPT for sponsoring today's episode of Better in Person. ChatGPT can help teams move from goals to real outcomes. Put Chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.