Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update)

Summary

Freakonomics Radio Episode Summary: "Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update)"

Release Date: August 15, 2025

In this compelling episode of Freakonomics Radio, host Stephen Dubner delves into the persistent practice of whaling, exploring its economic, cultural, and ethical dimensions. Featuring insights from experts and firsthand accounts from activists and journalists, the episode provides a comprehensive analysis of why whaling continues in the modern world despite widespread opposition.

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1. Introduction to Modern Whaling

Stephen Dubner sets the stage by revisiting the global landscape of whaling today. While commercial whaling has been largely abandoned, it persists in a few countries due to a combination of cultural traditions and economic factors.

Notable Quote:

"I have never eaten whale as far as I know. Have you?"
– Stephen Dubner [00:01]

2. Expert Insights on Whaling Economics

Bjorn Basberg, an economic historian from the Norwegian School of Economics, provides a historical perspective on Norway's whaling industry. He explains that Norway recently retired from his teaching position to focus on research, particularly on the whaling heritage in Antarctica.

Notable Quote:

"When it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place."
– Bjorn Basberg [08:55]

Eric Hilt, an American economic historian, discusses the technological advancements that propelled Norway to become the world's leading whaling nation in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He contrasts this with the decline of the American whaling industry, attributing it to broader economic shifts away from whaling.

Notable Quote:

"The Americans had a Name for being dragged across the ocean by a harpooned whale. They called it a Nantucket sleigh ride."
– Eric Hilt [12:05]

3. Technological Innovations in Whaling

The episode highlights the significant technological advancements in whaling, particularly the invention of the harpoon cannon by Norwegian magnate Sven Foin in the 1860s. These innovations transformed whaling from a labor-intensive endeavor into an industrialized industry capable of hunting larger whale species like the blue whale.

Notable Quote:

"The Norwegian whaling industry kept innovating. By the early 20th century, they built huge whaling ships that Basberg calls floating factories."
– Stephen Dubner [12:47]

4. International Whaling Commission (IWC) and Its Impact

Dubner explains the role of the International Whaling Commission (IWC), established in 1946 to regulate whaling and conserve whale populations. Initially aimed at sustainable whaling, the IWC's regulations inadvertently spurred a "Whaling Olympics," where countries accelerated their hunts to maximize quotas before restrictions tightened.

Notable Quote:

"They called it the Whaling Olympics. It caused these fleets to go out and catch as many big whales as they could as fast as possible."
– Jay Alabaster [22:15]

5. The Rise of Anti-Whaling Activism

The narrative shifts to the emergence of anti-whaling activism in the 1970s, marked by cultural shifts and influential media portrayals. The release of "Songs of the Humpback Whale" and the documentary "The Cove" played pivotal roles in changing public perception about whales, fueling the conservation movement.

Notable Quote:

"They were actually singing songs, and I think they've captivated the imagination of people around the world."
– Kate O'Connell [22:51]

Paul Watson, a renowned environmental activist, shares a harrowing account of his confrontation with a Soviet whaling ship, which underscored the brutal reality of whale hunting and galvanized his commitment to anti-whaling efforts.

Notable Quote:

"We're destroying these incredibly beautiful, intelligent, self-aware, sentient beings for the purpose of making a weapon meant for the mass extermination of human beings. And that's when it just struck me. We're insane."
– Paul Watson [26:36]

6. The Taiji Case: A Journalist’s Perspective

Jay Alabaster, an American journalist, recounts his experiences in Taiji, Japan—a town notorious for its drive hunting of dolphins and whales. His in-depth investigation reveals the economic underpinnings and cultural justifications that sustain whaling in Taiji despite international condemnation.

Notable Quote:

"Polls have shown that most people, I think 60 or 70% of people support whaling or Japan's right to whale, even if they don't eat whale themselves."
– Jay Alabaster [39:18]

Alabaster discusses the economic motivations behind whaling in Taiji, highlighting the lucrative black market for live dolphins used in dolphinariums, compared to the minimal demand for whale meat.

Notable Quote:

"Whale meat is served across Japan and has regional varieties... It's kind of seasoned to disguise that. The raw whale... is incredible meat when it's still fresh."
– Jay Alabaster [38:18]

7. Cultural vs. Economic Arguments in Whaling

The episode delves into the tension between cultural traditions and modern ethical standards. While Japan asserts whaling as a cultural heritage, critics argue that the economic viability is questionable given the low demand for whale products.

Notable Quote:

"For Norway, it's not about moral superiority; it's just about an interest in those communities to keep on with the industry."
– Bjorn Basberg [40:07]

8. The Future of Whaling and Conservation Efforts

As whaling faces declining economic incentives and increasing ethical scrutiny, Norway struggles with low demand and limited quotas. The episode hints at a possible decline in whaling activities, although it acknowledges ongoing challenges from bycatch, pollution, and modern threats to whale populations.

Notable Quote:

"My feeling is that the industry is struggling in many ways. They are struggling to find a market."
– Bjorn Basberg [41:02]

9. Conclusion and Tease for Next Episode

Dubner wraps up by introducing topics for the next installment, which will explore the unintended consequences of modern human activities on whale populations, such as offshore wind farms, noise pollution, and entanglement in fishing nets.

Notable Quote:

"How dangerous to whales are offshore wind farms? How about noise pollution and fishing nets? Also, why is it still a good idea to read Moby Dick?"
– Stephen Dubner [41:54]

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Evolution: Technological advancements transformed whaling into an industrialized industry, particularly in Norway.
• Economic Drivers: Declining demand for whale products and limited quotas have reduced the economic viability of whaling.
• Cultural Justifications: Countries like Japan continue whaling based on cultural traditions, despite minimal demand for whale meat.
• Activism Impact: Anti-whaling movements significantly influenced public perception and policy, although persistent practices in certain regions remain challenging to eradicate.
• Future Challenges: Modern threats to whales extend beyond hunting, including environmental pollution and habitat disruption.

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of the complex factors sustaining whaling practices today, offering listeners a deep understanding of the interplay between economics, culture, and conservation.

Transcript

[Stephen Dubner]

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by homes.com homes.com knows that when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property, it's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. As they [e-mail], we've done your homework. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile this summer don't get burned by your old wireless bill. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and and for a limited time, Mint Mobile is offering 3 months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] freak upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 per month limited time new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. We are taking a couple weeks off around here so we are replaying for you our 2023 series everything you never knew about whaling. This is part two of the series. You don't need to have heard part one to enjoy this one, but if you want to listen to that one first, it is right there in your podcast app. We have updated facts and figures when necessary. As always, thanks for Listen I've never eaten whale as far as I know. Have you?

[Bjorn Basberg]

Yes, I'm afraid if I dare to say that on American radio, but yes I have.

[Stephen Dubner]

Bjorn Basberg is an economic historian at the Norwegian School of Economics in Bergen.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Bergen is the second largest city in Norway. 100 years ago or more it was the capital of Norway and the people in Bergen, they tend to think that they are still the capital.

[Stephen Dubner]

Basberg recently retired from his teaching position.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Actually in Norway it's mandatory. I turned 70. That's a mandatory age of retirement.

[Stephen Dubner]

You have more time for whaling expeditions.

[Bjorn Basberg]

At least not whaling expeditions, but maybe expeditions I go to Antarctica once in a while to at least study the whaling heritage there. I've been actually for 30 years now involved with industrial archaeology projects in Antarctica, especially the sub Antarctic island of South Georgia. That was for many years the center of Antarctic whaling.

[Stephen Dubner]

So Basberg's primary activity around whaling is research. But as we heard, he has also eaten his share.

[Bjorn Basberg]

It tastes quite good. If you put it on the barbecue, on the grill, it's like a beef. So it's tasty. And you can also eat it in tin slices raw as carpaccio. Soto Carpaccio Yes. When we as kids had whale meat served by our mothers, we didn't like it very much. It had sort of a cod liver oil taste. It depends very much how you treat it if you go to Japan. I remember I saw a book of recipes for whale in Japan and there were several hundred recipes and they are using every bits and pieces of the whale in a very different way than we are used to here in Norway.

[Stephen Dubner]

Although whale hunting has happened for centuries in just about every place near an ocean, today there are just three countries where commercial whaling is still practiced. Norway, Japan and Iceland. But it's no longer a big business. Norway today has only about a dozen whaling ships which take in some 500 whales a year. In Iceland, the whaling season has been canceled for two years in a row. Now. In our previous episode, we learned how big the whaling industry used to be, especially in 19th century America. This was early capitalism unleashed on the high seas.

[Eric Hilt]

It was an extremely lucrative and important industry.

[Stephen Dubner]

But by the late 19th century, the American whaling industry collapsed. Whale oil had lit the world for decades, but it was being replaced by fossil fuels and eventually electricity. As for the meat, well, Americans never took to whale meat. But the biggest driver of the US whaling collapse was the dynamism of the American economy. There were too many new jobs that paid better and were safer than working on a whaleboat. But when America faded from the scene, commercial whaling didn't end. In fact, it got bigger and bigger well into the 20th century. The jobs just went elsewhere.

[Bjorn Basberg]

In terms of the national economy, it was substantial for the Norwegian economy for some years.

[Stephen Dubner]

Today on Freakonomics Radio, we continue our series Everything youg Never Knew About Whaling. First, we find out what it was that made tiny Norway a world leader.

[Eric Hilt]

The thing about these whales, they tend to sink quickly.

[Stephen Dubner]

We'll hear why most countries abandoned whaling and why the outliers didn't.

[Jay Alabaster]

They just saw this as another swing against them in a long string of them from the West.

[Stephen Dubner]

And we'll hear from the whales themselves.

[Kate O'Connell]

They were actually singing songs.

[Stephen Dubner]

Seriously, songs.

[Jay Alabaster]

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with.

[Stephen Dubner]

Your host, Stephen Dubner. The International Whaling Commission, or iwc, is a volunteer body responsible for the management of whaling and conservation of whales. That mission essentially translates into a global moratorium on commercial whaling. Norway, Japan and Iceland don't abide by this moratorium. Whales are also still hunted by indigenous groups in the U.S. canada, Russia, Greenland, Indonesia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, and Denmark. In those places, whale products typically aren't sold on the open market. And the IWC considers indigenous hunting a sustainable practice. Among commercial whalers, Norway remains the largest, and they too say their whale hunting is sustainable. The fact is, there isn't much demand for their whale meat in Norway or elsewhere. And what about the ethics? Here again is Bjorn Basberg.

[Bjorn Basberg]

I've decided never to take any strong position on this at all. My perspective on the whaling industry is to try to understand the history and to explain it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Historically, Norway did abide by the International Whaling Commission's moratorium on whaling until 1992, but then left or chose to no longer honor that agreement. What can you tell us about that?

[Bjorn Basberg]

Well, that was obviously very controversial internationally, and the protests were huge. I think the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign affairs had a very difficult time in sort of defending the Norwegian position. There were huge campaigns, of course, in your country especially, but also all over the world. But the government's view at the time was that this was an industry with a history, it's sustainable, and it was almost compared with indigenous whaling in Greenland, in Alaska, you know, which is still going on.

[Stephen Dubner]

Since there's not much demand for whale meat or whale oil. Why is there still any whaling in Norway? I've read one reason may be that whales eat a lot of herring and Norwegians also eat a lot of herring, and Norway wants to keep the herring supply high by limiting the whale predators. Is that true?

[Bjorn Basberg]

It could be an argument, but I've never really heard that, and I don't think that's a well justified argument. I think the main justification in Norway is that it's still an interest in those communities to keep on with the industry. And the government had said that it's fine.

[Stephen Dubner]

Basberg himself comes from one of these communities, a small coastal city called Sandefjord. The city's coat of arms shows a lone whaler standing on the prow of a ship, a harpoon raised in his arms.

[Bjorn Basberg]

That was, in a way, the New Bedford of Norway. The Whaling capital there.

[Stephen Dubner]

New Bedford, Massachusetts was at one time the capital of America's whaling industry. And accordingly, it was the richest city per capita in the US as for Sande Fjord and Bjorn Basberg, I grew.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Up in the 1960s and the industry was in decline. And it was never an alternative for me to become a whaler, but I studied at the business school and I developed an interest for economic history.

[Stephen Dubner]

And what is it about whaling as an industry that particularly appeals to an economist?

[Bjorn Basberg]

Well, as any industry, there are all sorts of interesting questions, of course, but I guess my interest was, although I'm an economist, it was the technology. I think.

[Stephen Dubner]

Pardon my ignorance, but when I think of whaling, I know probably about as much as the average person knows about whaling, which is to say very, very, very little. And I wouldn't necessarily think of whaling and technology going together. Plainly, I am wrong.

[Bjorn Basberg]

The American whaling, of course, that was rather primitive in terms of technology, with a whaling ship out there on the ocean and then the rowing boats and the harpooner and rather simple, the struggle with a whale. What has been called modern whaling, My colleagues now, we like to talk about it more as industrial whaling. It's not so modern anymore. Okay, but at the time, of course, it was modern. And my thesis was about whaling in patents, and that in a way I have stuck with ever since. And of course, patents, that is about technology and inventions and innovations. This new technology was about employing steamships which had not been used in whaling. The actual catching then involved a very powerful large harpoon or a cannon, one could say, with an explosive grenade that killed the whale. So it was very, very different from the oil style whaling.

[Stephen Dubner]

This harpoon cannon was invented in the 1860s by a Norwegian whaling magnate named Sven Foin.

[Eric Hilt]

So exactly at the time when the Americans were abandoning whaling in the late 19th century, the Norwegians were taking it up and establishing what we know today as the modern whaling industry.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that is Eric Hilt, an American economic historian who also specializes in the economics of whaling.

[Eric Hilt]

So to do that, you needed to use very different methods and you produce different products.

[Stephen Dubner]

While Americans had hunted across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, the supply of whales there had fallen. The Norwegians, with their powerful steamships, hunted all the way down in Antarctica. This offered a new supply of whales that were even bigger than what the Americans hunted. The Norwegians went after humpback whales and the biggest mammal of all, the blue whale.

[Eric Hilt]

The American whaling industry couldn't touch it. If they managed to harpoon it, it would just drag them away forever.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Americans had a Name for being dragged across the ocean by a harpooned whale. They called it a Nantucket sleigh ride.

[Eric Hilt]

It could drag the whole whaling ship. The other thing about these whales is that they tend to sink quickly. The Americans would kill a sperm whale and sort of tow it back to the vessel. You couldn't do that very easily with this gigantic blue whale. So you not only need a cannon, but you need some kind of powerful device to actually bring the whale carcass up.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Well, they had a sort of a hose.

[Stephen Dubner]

You just stick it in the whale.

[Bjorn Basberg]

They stuck it into the whale, yes, basically.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then there's some kind of pump on the whaling ship that pumps air through the hose into the whale. So it's like blowing up a balloon, essentially.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Very much so.

[Stephen Dubner]

The Norwegian whaling industry kept innovating. By the early 20th century, they built huge whaling ships that Basberg calls floating factories. These were accompanied by 10 or 12 smaller ships that were deployed to kill whales and haul them back to the big ship to process the whale oil.

[Bjorn Basberg]

The factory ships was like an average oil tanker at the time, 15,000 tons, 20,000 tons.

[Stephen Dubner]

Now, technology usually travels quickly, especially in a competitive industry where there's money to be made. Why did the US whaling industry, and maybe other industries not adopt these new Norwegian technologies?

[Bjorn Basberg]

Well, first, other countries did adopt. So Norway was not alone in the 20th century, but Norway was for many years the largest nation. But Britain was a competitor and business partner also, and eventually Japan developed this industry post World War II. Germany was large in the interwar years, the Soviet Union. But the Americans never really developed an interest, I should say, for the industry. The American whaling entrepreneurs, they just diverted their interest into other industries. And that had to do with more macro trends in the development of the American economy.

[Stephen Dubner]

Here's another way to put it. America was getting too rich to bother with whaling, especially the big investors and entrepreneurs. By the late 19th century, there was more money to be made in coal and petroleum and steel, in railroads and real estate and media and telecommunications. So the US was moving forward fast in all those industries. And how about Norway? Not so much. Norway did eventually discover its own big oil reserves, and that's why Norway is rich today. But that wasn't until the 1960s. If you look back to the 1860s.

[Eric Hilt]

Norway is a very poor country with low wages. It had a low standard of living, and the availability of inexpensive oil and also meat was very attractive to them.

[Stephen Dubner]

And so it was that Norway's whaling fleet became the largest in the world.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Whaling was an opportunity for when the Alternative was unemployment. Really, in terms of the national economy, it was substantial. For some years they earned foreign exchange because most of the products were sold abroad. Some years the revenues from whaling was larger than from the fisheries.

[Stephen Dubner]

You have any idea what share of GDP the whaling industry may have represented at its peak?

[Bjorn Basberg]

As an economist, I should give you a very precise figure. But between 5 and 10%, I think. Never more than that. But that is substantial. For one particular industry. The product was always about oil.

[Stephen Dubner]

Whale oil, as we heard in our previous episode, had been used for decades as a lighting fuel and as industrial lubricant. By the 20th century, demand was falling since there were other cheaper products on the market. But the whaling industry found other uses for its oil.

[Bjorn Basberg]

The main buyers of the whale oil throughout the 20th century was large companies in Europe like Unilever and in the United States like Procter and Gamble that processed the oil further and sold it to, well, margarine industry.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's right. Whale oil was a main ingredient in everyone's favorite 20th century butter substitute, margarine.

[Bjorn Basberg]

So that was really the main product. Whale meat was never really a product as such. That was always very marginal.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, so the flesh of the whale was simply more valuable for its oil value than its meat value.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Oh, definitely.

[Stephen Dubner]

But soon enough, whale meat did become more valuable, at least in some places. And all it took was a world war.

[Jay Alabaster]

So after World War II, Japan is not in good shape.

[Stephen Dubner]

So off to Japan we go, right after this break. I'm Stephen Dubner and you are listening to Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Summer is here and the only thing that should be heating up is the grill. So don't get scorched by your wireless bill. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages because Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. This year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com freak that's mintmobile.com freak. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 per month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by one MD nutrition. In today's digital world, our eyes are battling screen glare, blue light and oxidative stress. That's where VisionMD from One MD Nutrition comes in. It's an overall eye health supplement formulated to support modern day hurdles like digital eye strain and help slow age related vision challenges. Developed with a breakthrough formula backed by eye doctors, VisionMD offers more than just basic protection. Its science backed care that delivers comprehensive eye health support you can both see and feel. Its clinically backed ingredients work to support vision acuity and the results speak for themselves. 90% of Vision MD users notice better night vision and clarity after just 12 weeks and 82% of people who switched to VisionMD found it better than any other eye health products they've tried. Plus shop with confidence because VisionMD is backed by a 90 day money back guarantee. Ready to show your vision some love? Visit onemd.org use code FREAKONOMICS for 15% off and discover what VisionMD can do for you. That's onemd.org and code FREAKONOMICS. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Wells Fargo. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs in a lot. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Let's say it together. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

[Jay Alabaster]

When.

[Stephen Dubner]

Japan surrendered to the Allies in 1945, putting an end to World War II, American forces under General Douglas MacArthur occupied Japan and took the lead in rehabilitating the nation.

[Jay Alabaster]

Japan is not in good shape, obviously. People are starving, literally.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's Jay Alabaster, an American journalist and doctoral candidate who lives in Japan.

[Jay Alabaster]

It was a first world country that has just been smashed because of the war. So they are very hard up for food and protein sources and they don't have a long history of eating meat.

[Stephen Dubner]

So MacArthur ordered the Japanese to go all in on whale hunting. There was at least a little bit of self interest here.

[Jay Alabaster]

Whale hunt will help alleviate Japan's food shortage and ultimately save over $20 million for American taxpayers. It's not an exaggeration to say that whale saved the country for a few years just to actually feed the hungry nation that was recovering. And at that time it was also served in school lunches.

[Stephen Dubner]

But there was a problem. Just as whale meat became a critical component of Japan's recovery, the world was running out of whales.

[Jay Alabaster]

Whale numbers were down to 100th, 1000th of what they were at the peak.

[Stephen Dubner]

All the technology that had gone into whaling, all that mechanization and industrialization, it had decimated the global whaling population. During the 20th century alone, an estimated 3 million whales were killed, led by Norway, Japan, the Soviet Union and Britain. But plainly that couldn't continue. And this is what led in 1946 to the establishment of the International Whaling Commission. Fifteen of the biggest whaling countries got together to regulate how many whales could be killed.

[Jay Alabaster]

In the beginning, the IWC is for the orderly development of the whaling industry. So it's a very pro whaling, pro industry organization where a group of nations get together and try to figure out how to preserve this resource.

[Stephen Dubner]

The IWC today is an anti whaling organization. It advocates for a total ban on commercial whaling. But back then, it was trying to reach a happy medium. The problem was they didn't have any real power to tell a given country how many whales they could kill. And instead the IWC set a global quota. And this had an unintended and perverse consequence.

[Jay Alabaster]

They called it the Whaling Olympics. It caused these fleets to go out and catch as many big whales as they could as fast as possible.

[Stephen Dubner]

The 1960s turned out to be the peak of global whaling. Some species were by now close to extinction, including the right whale, the humpback and the blue whale. But then things began to change for the whales. If you were around way back in 1970, you might remember a record album called Songs of the Humpback Whale. It was a pretty big hit.

[Kate O'Connell]

I remember that National Geographic included a disc 45 inside one of their editions so that people could listen to humpback whale songs.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Kate o'. Connell. She's a policy advisor with the Animal Welfare Institute. That's one of the oldest conservation groups in the us.

[Kate O'Connell]

They were actually singing songs, and I think they've captivated the imagination of people around the world.

[Stephen Dubner]

O' Connell says the album also shifted the public's thinking toward whales by showing the complexities of their behavior. The rise of this pro whale sentiment fit in nicely with the rise of the conservation movement generally. This was an era when the value of clean air and clean water was becoming more visible and more important. There was also the sense that preserving whales rather than hunting them, just made sense, given how the global economy had evolved. Humankind had found cheaper and easier sources for Fuel and food. So why don't we just celebrate the whale as a beautiful free animal? In 1970, the folk singer Judy Collins recorded a traditional whale hunting song with backing vocals by the Humpbacks.

[Kate O'Connell]

We're bound off for Greenland and ready to sail in hopes to find riches.

[Jay Alabaster]

In hunting the whale.

[Stephen Dubner]

Soon after, the US banned commercial whaling under the Marine Mammal Protection act and the new environmental group Greenpeace made its mark by launching a movement called Save the Whales.

[Paul Watson]

It always has been my lifelong ambition to eradicate whaling from the planet.

[Stephen Dubner]

That is Paul Watson, a self described eco warrior. We met him in the first episode.

[Paul Watson]

Of this series back in 1975 when I was with Greenpeace. We intervened against the Soviet whaling fleet in the Pacific Ocean.

[Stephen Dubner]

Watson was on a ship that tried to stop a Soviet ship from killing a whale.

[Paul Watson]

They had harpooned this large bull whale and he turned, he swam right underneath us and threw himself up at the bo, the Soviet vessel, and they were waiting for him and pulled the trigger, sent an explosive harpoon into his head and the whale fell back into the water, rolling in agony on the surface. There was blood everywhere. And I caught his eye and suddenly he dove and he came straight towards us and he came up and out of the water at an angle so that the next move is to fall down and crush us. And as his head rose up out of the water and I looked into his eye, which is right there, so close, I could see my reflection of myself in that eye as he rose up out of the water, I felt that the whale understood what we were trying to do because I could see the effort he made to pull himself back. And he began to sink back into the sea as I disappeared beneath the surface. And he died. He could have killed us and chose not to do so.

[Stephen Dubner]

Whether the whale actually chose to not kill Paul Watson isn't something that we can fact check anyway.

[Paul Watson]

But it also got me to thinking, why? Why were we killing those whales? The Soviets were killing sperm whales for spermaceti oil. And sperm oil, they're not edible. And the primary use for that was in the construction and maintenance of intercontinental ballistic missiles.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is something we can fact check. It is true that the Soviets used sperm whale oil for military purposes, but they also killed lots of other kinds of whales, mostly to comply with the directives of their centrally planned economy. There wasn't much demand for whale oil or meat in the Soviet Union. But you can see why an activist like Paul Watson might find it attractive to combine whale saving with military disarmament.

[Paul Watson]

And I said to myself, here we are destroying these incredibly beautiful, intelligent, self aware, sentient beings for the purpose of making a weapon meant for the mass extermination of human beings. And that's when it just struck me. We're insane. So I said to myself, from then on in, I'm going to do this for them. Not for us, but for them.

[Stephen Dubner]

News of Paul Watson's encounter with the Soviet ship helped drive the Save the Whales movement. But Watson's confrontational tactics weren't well received within Greenpeace and he was ousted by their board. He continues to use similar tactics today under the name of the Captain Paul Watson Foundation. He says that direct action like interfering with whaling ships or even sinking a whaling ship is justified by the horror of whale hunting.

[Paul Watson]

Our bottom line is we don't hurt anybody. It's a strategy called aggressive non violence.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm curious to know whether you interact or have interacted much with whalers directly and tried to understand their perspective.

[Paul Watson]

I've had many sit down debates with whalers, ex whalers in Australia, whalers in Norway, many at the International Whaling Commission, not with the Japanese. They just refuse.

[Stephen Dubner]

We tried ourselves for months to sit down with whalers to hear their perspective. Apparently the few remaining commercial whalers are so used to seeing their industry portrayed as barbaric that they avoid speaking publicly. After this series was first published, we did finally hear from one Norwegian whaler named Bjorn Andersson. You'll hear that conversation later in the series. Meanwhile, we'll hear more from Jay Alabaster about how he gained the trust of Japanese whalers.

[Jay Alabaster]

I had to give this speech in front of them and they debated and debated.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's coming up after a quick break. I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Range Rover Sport. A vehicle that blends power, poise and performance with a distinctly British design. The Range Rover Sport is built to take on roads anywhere. Free from unnecessary details, its raw power and agility shine. Combining a dynamic sporting personality with elegant and agility, it delivers an instinctive drive. Its assertive stance hints at an equally refined driving performance. Defining true modern luxury, the Range Rover Sport features the latest innovations in comfort and convenience. The cabin air purification system alongside the Active noise cancellation creates a new level of quality, comfort and control. Terrain Response 2 offers seven terrain modes to choose from, fine tuning the vehicle for any challenging roads ahead of force inside and out. The Range Rover Sport is available with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug in hybrid with an estimated range of 53 miles. Build your Range Rover Sport at range rover.com US Sport Freakonomics radio is sponsored by Ameca Insurance. They say if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go, go together. When you go with Amica, you're getting coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, so they'll help look after what's important to you together, auto, home life and more. Amica has you covered at Ameca. They'll help protect what matters most to you. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

[Jay Alabaster]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Stephen Dubner]

FX's alien Earth, the official podcast.

[Jay Alabaster]

Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast.

[Stephen Dubner]

And crew in this exclusive companion podcast.

[Jay Alabaster]

They will explore the story elements, deep.

[Stephen Dubner]

Dive into character motivations, and offer an episode by episode behind the scenes breakdown.

[Jay Alabaster]

Of each terrifying chapter in this new series.

[Stephen Dubner]

Search FX's Alien Earth wherever you listen.

[Jay Alabaster]

To podcasts.

[Stephen Dubner]

In 2009, the world was shocked to see the Japanese whaling industry on the big screen.

[Paul Watson]

Right now I'm focusing on that one little body of water where that slaughter takes place.

[Stephen Dubner]

It was a documentary film called the.

[Paul Watson]

COVID If we can't stop that, if we can't fix that, forget about the bigger issues.

[Stephen Dubner]

The film was about dolphin hunting in the town of Taiji. In case you've forgotten your middle school biology, yes, dolphins are whales. They, along with porpoises and a variety of bigger animals that we call whales, all belong to the cetacean infraorder. Anyway, the film follows Rick o', Barry, a dolphin trainer turned anti whaling activist critiquing the practice of whale hunting in Japan. Back in the States, the COVID was nominated for an Academy Award. Jay Alabaster, the American journalist we met earlier, was living in Tokyo. The Associated Press sent him to Taiji.

[Jay Alabaster]

Someone had to be in the town in case it won. So I went to the town to cover and talk to people and just get the reaction. Taiji is one of the few locations where whaling has basically gone on uninterrupted for several centuries. It was a really remote little town. When I got there, no one would talk to me. So I was walking around this town, which is amazingly beautiful and remote and quaint and people were incredibly nice. No one was rude to me or threatening or anything, but no one would answer any of my questions or anything.

[Stephen Dubner]

Taiji did not like the attention the film had brought.

[Jay Alabaster]

They had already gone through the protests of Greenpeace and the anti whaling movement. They just saw this as another anti whaling swing against them in a long string of them from the West. In order to speak to the fishermen and the community members, I had to kind of involve myself in this society. There's 12 of them that kind of run the boats, and it's a union, so they all have equal power, so they all have to agree. So I had to give this speech in front of them, you know, tell them why I wanted to do this and what I hope to accomplish. And they debated and debated, and finally I was allowed to hang out with them before and after they went on the hunts.

[Stephen Dubner]

In Taiji, whaling is done using a method called drive hunting.

[Jay Alabaster]

As long as the weather is acceptable and they don't have something else going on, they'll go out every single morning. There's 12 boats, if they're all operating, and they kind of spread out in a fan with Taiji at its center, and they go out about 15 miles at a relatively slow speed. And they're just scanning, scanning, scanning the horizon, looking for birds or spouts, anything. Give them a hint that there's one of the species that they're allowed to catch. And if one of them finds a species, he'll call it in on the radio, and the 12 will have, like, an impromptu conference on their wireless radios. And if they decide to go for it, they'll all assemble behind the pod and they'll line up the boats, and then they have these metal poles that are kind of flanged at the bottom, and they'll put the flange side into the water. And they're very long, they're very coordinated. They'll just push the pod slowly, slowly, slowly towards Taiji. And then they get them to a certain cove, you know, the COVID and seal it off with ropes, and then either take the animals for meat or live for show animals. That's one thing that's unique on Taiji is that because they do this method of hunting, the animals aren't killed at sea.

[Stephen Dubner]

Alabaster tried to learn about the economics of whaling in Taiji.

[Jay Alabaster]

The prices are quite hidden. They're not published anywhere, so it's quite difficult to get a hard read. But it's very clear that the live animals are worth far more than the animals that they sell for meat. They only actually eat two commonly. The short finned pilot whale and the striped dolphin are the two that are celebrated. And one of those animals will go for between 500 and $1,000, I think, for meat. But another animal, say a bottlenose dolphin, which is the show animal that you often see in aquariums, kind of the flipper, you know, they can go for 10, $20,000. So there's a huge difference there.

[Stephen Dubner]

The film about Taiji whaling condemns both the killing of whales for meat and selling them to a dolphinarium when there.

[Paul Watson]

Were only three dolphin arums. Today it's become a multi billion dollar industry and all of these captures help create the largest slaughter of dolphins on the planet.

[Stephen Dubner]

And the winner is the Covenant. That's right. The COVID won the Oscar for best documentary. Taiji and Japan more generally were almost universally chastised for allowing whaling to continue. Jay Alabaster, having seen things from the inside, felt there was a bigger story to be told. So he decided to get a PhD in journalism and mass communications. He is currently writing his dissertation.

[Jay Alabaster]

Yeah, so it's kind of how the domestic and the international media cover this little town of Taiji, the debate that swirls around it, and the history of the town itself.

[Stephen Dubner]

Since the beginning of the anti whaling movement, Japan has often been the primary target. Much more so for some reason than Norway or Iceland. When the International Whaling Commission declared an outright ban on commercial whaling in 1982, Japan objected and allowed its whaling industry to continue, supposedly for research purposes. In 2019, Japan left the IWC and resumed commercial whaling. This prompted Boris Johnson, soon to be Prime Minister of the uk, to publish an opinion piece with the headline, why is there not more outrage about Japan's barbaric practice of whaling? Japan's chief cabinet secretary at the time, Yoshihide Suga, defended the decision. Engagement in whaling, he said, has been supporting local communities. In its long history, Japan has used whale not only as a source of protein, but also for a variety of other purposes. These included fertilizer and insect repellent, musical instruments and board game pieces. But Jay Alabaster has seen how weak Japan's defensive arguments can seem in the face of anti whaling activism.

[Jay Alabaster]

There are these powerful environmental groups and when I say powerful, I don't mean in a negative way. They're just powerful and they apply the pressure to kind of tweak the world in the way that they want and they're often very successful. And a little town like Taiji, which has 3,000 people and no international presence, there's no one there that really does social media. Officially, in looking historically, those towns don't tend to do so well when the kind of pressure that is applied and Taiji has applied to them. But Taiju was very robust, held up, received incredible domestic assistance.

[Kate O'Connell]

I think for Japan it comes down to the fact that they've always been very concerned that if there's a successful end to whaling, what does that then mean for other parts of their fisheries industry?

[Stephen Dubner]

That again, is Kate o' Connell from the Animal Welfare Institute, and in particular, tuna.

[Kate O'Connell]

They're very focused on their tuna industries, and so they're very nervous that will they then come after our tuna.

[Stephen Dubner]

There's one big difference to point out. Global demand for tuna is strong. For whale meat, not so much.

[Jay Alabaster]

All the fishermen in Taiji talk about this time in the 80s and 90s when the prices were incredibly high and in one season they would make enough to buy a house.

[Stephen Dubner]

Jay Alabaster says that whale meat now gets maybe one third or even less the price it used to sell for. That's good news if you eat whale meat.

[Jay Alabaster]

Whale is served across Japan and has regional varieties. One common one is called Tatsutage. It's like fried whale, which is the easiest to eat whale, has a certain flavor to it, and if you're not used to it, it's not good. I have trouble with it as well. So it's kind of seasoned to disguise that. The raw whale. Although this just sounds from a Western perspective, it just sounds awful. But Japan has a long history, obviously, of eating raw fish, and they eat whale that's been freshly caught, lightly cooked or not cooked at all. And if you're a meat eater like I am, it is incredible meat when it's still fresh.

[Stephen Dubner]

But Alabaster says the overall amount of whale meat consumed, even in Japan, is very small, so the average person eats it.

[Jay Alabaster]

Doesn't even register on the decimal that 0.00% of their diet is whale. I don't know what would be an equivalent in the U.S. but maybe if you saw rabbit on the menu or something like that, you'd be like, oh, that's. Or crawdad or something like that. You know, you wouldn't be floored, but you think, oh, that's kind of interesting. They have crawdad.

[Stephen Dubner]

But here's the thing. In Japan, even if you don't eat whale, you may not want whale hunting to end.

[Jay Alabaster]

Polls have shown that most people, I think 60 or 70% of people support whaling or Japan's right to whale, even if they don't eat whale themselves. In broader Japan, there is no question that the outside pressure has given a huge boost to whaling. It's one of the few issues I've seen in Japan where across the political spectrum there's support for whaling.

[Paul Watson]

The Japanese can always say, well, this is our tradition.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that again is the longtime anti whaling activist, Paul Watson.

[Paul Watson]

When a species becomes endangered like the bowhead, there can be no justification for any tradition, any culture. My personal position is I'm opposed to the killing of any whale by anyone, anywhere, for any reason.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you feel that the war against whaling has been won? Essentially, no.

[Paul Watson]

But we certainly have had an impact. A number of countries that were whaling when I began are no longer doing it, like Spain and Australia and Chile, but Japan, Norway and Iceland have just bluntly ignored that.

[Jay Alabaster]

Before I came to Taiji, I had this impression that it was just one of these topics that gets dragged out of the closet every once in a while to hold up. You know, this is our culture. But when you come to these little communities, it's very clear that, you know, it's a small section of Japan, but there is definitely a living, thriving whaling culture. I believe you know that this is a sustainable practice. The arguments against it are much more moral than economic or environmental, I would say.

[Stephen Dubner]

Back in Norway, the whaling economist Bjorn Basberg agrees that moral arguments are driving the whaling debate these days. But as we all know, there's no universal scale of morality in Norway.

[Bjorn Basberg]

I think the typical aptitude would be that we are eating and slaughtering all sorts of animals and the whales are no more than an animal. It's a large one, of course, but it's not more special than other animals.

[Stephen Dubner]

That said, the era of big whaling is plainly over, at least for now.

[Bjorn Basberg]

My feeling is that the industry is struggling in many ways. They are struggling to find a market market. It's not a huge demand for whale meat in Norway. We do export some whale meat to Japan. We are allowed to do that, but that's also fairly limited. The quota for the last few years has been around 1,000 whales that could be killed and the kill has only been like 500. And that is not because there are not enough whales out there, but there are not enough whalers.

[Stephen Dubner]

So are we about to enter a post whaling world? And what if I told you that humans are still killing hundreds of thousands of whales a year, but not by hunting them?

[Kate O'Connell]

We've had all these whales washing up on shores or being found floating dead.

[Stephen Dubner]

Coming up next time on the show, how dangerous to whales are offshore wind farms? How about noise pollution and fishing nets? Also, why is it still a good idea to read Moby Dick? There's a headline early in the novel that says bloody battle in Afghanistan. Grand contested election for the presidency of the United States. And was a 19th century whaling crew more ethnically diverse than your 21st century office. All that in the third and final episode of everything you never knew about whaling. That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app [e-mail] where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Zachary Lipinski. It was mixed by Greg Rippon and Eleanor Osborne with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abuaji, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Morgan Levy, Jasmine Klinger, Sarah Lilly and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening. I don't think of Norway as having an east coast, but I'm bad at geography.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Well, the eastern part of Norway is mostly Sweden, but we have a small southeast coast.

[Jay Alabaster]

The Freakonomics Radio Network the hidden side.

[Bjorn Basberg]

Of everything.

[Stephen Dubner]

Stitcher.

[Kate O'Connell]

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