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- [00:00]
A
This is your host, Steve Walsh. I've mentioned this before, but I'm working largely on my own, so it takes a little time to get out each episode. After the last episode, I started to get some publicity surrounding the podcast. More people downloaded the story. Some of the audience started to reach out to me. I stopped to conduct new interviews and tracked down a few leads. I found some new witnesses. It's going to change how this ends. It's pretty exciting. Alright, back to the story. When they were finally let out of the brig in the spring of 1977, the publicity generated by the Klan being at Camp Pendleton had made the Pendleton 14 a little bit famous. Imagine when they went behind bars. They were anonymous Marines. When they got out, all these people wanted to meet them. This is free the Pendleton 14. The African American Marine that I Talked to, Ricky McGilfrey, he constantly reminds me that this was Southern California in the 1970s. Drugs were plentiful both inside and outside of the Marine Corps. Women now wanted to meet them. Listen to just about any rock song from the 1970s. That's how he describes their time while they awaited trial.
- [01:42]
B
We were such celebrities that we didn't understand these folks trying to get us. It was us against the Marine Corps.
- [01:50]
A
When you say you were such celebrities, what was that like?
- [01:53]
B
Oh man, the people in California. Let me say you people in California in the 70s, when there was a cause, money flowed in donations and sponsorship and. Oh my God, man. Oh, it was crazy. Just. And we had a lady who was over the fun and they went and rented us a house. This was a place for us to come off base and unwind while we was going through our court procedures. And then from there we would have to go on speaking engagements. You know, throughout California. We had a lot of rallies and we had some events in San Francisco and just, just mingling and people wanted to be close to you and talk to you and give them insight of what you're going through as a Marine that's going through all this with the Marine Corps. And it was, it was, it was nice. I mean, drugs, drinks and women. I tell you, man, it was crazy. It was crazy.
- [02:58]
A
So did you have to speak at any of these events or.
- [03:00]
B
I was the speaker. I was, yeah, most of the time Spencer and them anointed me as the spokesman and so when I would get up, I would tell them about what we going through and the struggle of a. Being a black person in the Marine Corps. And you know, my background, you know, look, 15, 15, 20 minute speech, you
- [03:22]
A
know, give me Some highlights. What did those speeches sound like? What were you telling people?
- [03:26]
B
Stamping out racism in the Marine Corps. Stamping out racism in the United States. And come on now. It's kind of hard for me to say United States. And I'm part of this cult of the Marine Corps. So I think I tried to keep it within the Marine Corps the things that we were dealing with.
- [04:02]
A
Fresh off the success of getting their clients out of the brig. David Weitzman and the other outside attorneys tried tried to put the man who headed the Tutu area on trial. And by extension the whole Marine Corps military court uses rules which look really similar to civilian courts in many ways with opposing counsel and a judge. One difference is who goes to court martial. That's decided by a convening authority, usually a commander. They're supposed to be detached from the incident. Sometimes the military will use someone outside the base to avoid the appearance of conflict. The Marines gave the man who ran the Tutu area, Colonel Mammon A. Johnson, the authority to decide who would be tried by court martial. Attorneys for the black Marines argued Johnson wasn't impartial. Johnson's career was at stake. Part of his job included handling race relations on base. A Navy investigator put in his report that Johnson had dismissed problems in the Tutu area as a battle between white bums versus black bums. The defense argued Johnson not only did didn't see the significance of the Klan being on base, he was also embarrassed by the incident to the point that it could impact his career. Pointing out that Johnson had helped hide the presence of the Klan in the media. In court, Johnson argued that he initially thought the Klan was barred from the military. The Klan had been on the Attorney General's list of subversive organizations. The list started in World War II mainly to track groups thought to be a front for the Soviet Union. The list would expand to include groups like the Klan. After the war, the list had been tied to blacklisting the House UN American Activities Committee and McCarthyism. Even so, President Eisenhower barred service members from belonging to any of the organizations on the subversive organization list. President Nixon officially ended the list in 1974. By that time, public sentiment had changed. Since the early 1970s, Congress and the public were pushing the Department of Defense to curtail surveillance of groups that it saw as a threat to the military, which were mainly anti war and civil rights groups. In court, Johnson cited the lack of a list as the reason he couldn't take action against the Klan. Though there was no evidence that he ever asked anyone up the chain of command, whether the Marines were free to join the kkk, wear Klan insignia on their utilities, and spread their message on base, and even harass and intimidate African American Marines. Some of Johnson's junior officers testified that Johnson and other officers in the Tutu area saw whatever problems that were happening as a failure of discipline. The outside attorneys for the African American Marines wanted to get the cases moved out of the Marine Corps. They filed a motion citing the racial climate on Pendleton and biased, including by Johnson, during the run up to the court's martial. It stops the prosecution for a few months. Then on July 14, 1977, the Court of Military Appeals denies the motion. And that's pretty much it. Ricky McGilvery's attorney, David Weitzman.
- [07:18]
C
The only thing that we did, we were embarrassing the Marine Corps. This was a major embarrassment to them, and they wanted us to know that. And we knew that that was partly our goal. It was all protecting one another's backs at that point.
- [07:35]
A
The reality is the case may have been decided before the outside counsel even arrived. While Colonel Johnson and the other Marine leaders were still claiming they had no idea why the attack happened, one of the Pendleton 14 was already talking to naval investigators. It was Ricky McGilvery's friend, Corporal B.J. lee.
- [07:55]
D
I noticed B.J. lee wasn't in our room. Me and him shared the BQ together. I noticed he wasn't there. Then when he finally showed up later that evening or the next day, I'm not sure what it was. I thought he was out kind of doing what we do as far as being young men in the military somewhere. Found a young lady and spent the night. He told, he told me then, man, they, they got, they got us all because somebody talked. BJ didn't tell me it was him that wanted to talk. Next thing I know, they start calling each one of them. They start rounding us up.
- [08:30]
A
So even before the first TV news story aired, Lee had been offered immunity to testify against the other African American Marines. The Gilvry says they were all threatened with decades in Leavenworth. One by one, the 14 start to take place the agreements or move toward trial. Early on, charges were dropped against one African American Marine who can prove he wasn't there. The cases for the rest of the Marines drag on through most of 1977. But the cameras and the national papers pack up and start to leave. The Pendleton 14 go from making headlines to short briefs announcing the next plea agreement or court martial. The Gilvery's attorney, David Weitzman, perhaps if
- [09:12]
C
the Marines had not screwed up and had actually attacked members of the Ku Klux Klan, the case would have been totally different. Not much we could do about that. That was a fait accompli. But we had hoped that the Marine Corps would take into consideration in mitigation the dangers that these Marines felt, the threats that they actually encountered. I thought it was a just cause. And the Marines, you know, if my family felt threatened, I would want to do what I could to protect them. And I felt that's what the situation they were in.
- [10:04]
A
A judge throws out the civil lawsuit brought by the Klansmen, the one where they contend their first amendment rights were being violated because the Marines moved the Klansmen to other bases after the incident. The Marines have the right to move the Klansmen wherever they want to. During the Pendleton 14 cases, Klansmen testify that some of them originally joined the Klan at other Marine bases around the world, even before they came to Pendleton. There are a couple of attempts to actually look at the larger issue of the Klan being on Camp Pendleton. The Congressional Black Caucus sent a representative to the base. The Marines also announced there will be a report which looks at race relations onboard Camp Pendleton. Concern over the Klan doesn't seem to reach beyond the headlines coming out of Pendleton, though. Historian Nate Packard, who teaches at Marine University,
- [10:58]
E
To me, it almost seems like they hope it would go away. We'll just wait till a few of these guys get transferred. We won't make a big deal about it. Prefer that it just go away on its own rather than taking action. And oftentimes the situation will have to come to a head, whether through congressional attention or media attention. And then once it seems like this thing is embarrassing the Marine Corps, then leaders will tend to take swift action. Oftentimes they're a little slow. Slow on the uptake, to use a slang term.
- [11:31]
A
It takes nearly 10 more years for the Marines to ban the Klan outright. In 1986, Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger issues a directive definitively banning members of the military from belonging to the Ku Klux Klan or other hate groups. The move comes after the Southern Poverty Law center wrote a letter to the secretary which showed how Marines were attending meetings of a Klan group that had recently changed its name to the White Patriot Party. David Duke stays around San Diego for a little bit. When the cameras leave Camp Pendleton, Duke and his disciples create Klan border watch. In October 1977, Duke announces to the press that the Klansmen will patrol patrol the border to track down illegal immigrants. Though only a few Klansmen show up for the cameras. Klan Border Watch raises the profile of the Klan in California along with racial tension. In October 1977, a cross is burned on the lawn of Chicano activist Herman Baca in San Diego. The incident sparks anti Klan rallies by the Latino community. The newspapers dismiss Klan Border Watch as a stunt, but the idea of the threat of illegal immigration from Mexico sticks. San Diego Mayor Pete Wilson publicly denounces David Duke's plan, saying he doesn't want the Klan's help. The Republican would later use the issue of illegal immigration as a centerpiece of his successful campaign for California governor in 1980. Just north of Camp Pendleton, the man David Duke appointed as the Grand Dragon of the California clan. And during the Pendleton 14 cases he ran for Congress. Tom Metzger won the Democratic primary, then lost in the general election. David Duke would keep trying to become the new face of the KKK for a few more years. In 1978, Colorado Springs Police detective Ron Stallworth would uncover Klan activity in his state. The story really didn't come out until Stallworth published his book in 2014. The African American detective posed as a white racist on the phone talking to Klansmen, including David Duke. Side note, a majority of the Klansmen Stallworth uncovered were also members of the military. They were involved in plots to bomb or terrorize. Some were in the Army. In two cases, they were with norad, the North American Air Defense Command.
- [14:10]
E
That's the problem with this stuff around the country. People have a lackadaisical attitude about it because they don't feel like their area is subject to this type of activity, when in fact, it is. Got to keep in mind, these are Americans. They are American in every way, shape and form. They're just domestic terrorists. And they're thinking. They believe in the supremacy of themselves over anyone who doesn't look like them and think like them. And that exists everywhere in this country.
- [14:40]
A
So my friend Ayanna Contreras really hasn't had the passion for this story that I have. She's kind of helped me get my head in the right place. She's a little bored by all the military stuff and all the courtroom details, but I think I'm getting a little bit closer to turning her around. Can you take anything away from this story that helps us deal with what's going on today?
- [15:00]
F
If anything, it just makes us recognize that there's nothing new under the sun. And some of the things that we're dealing with this very second, in terms of the media and in terms of race relations, I don't know if that's really hopeful, but it's sometimes comforting to know that. I mean, I think there was some progress that happened after this. I don't think we're in the. We've been in the same state for 40 years. I don't think that's the case. But it also lets us know we need to be diligent because clearly we can go back backwards in time sometimes.
- [15:35]
A
I mean, does it make a difference that this story came out? They were trying to attack the Klan. They ended up getting the wrong room. But is it important that this story ultimately did get out and what happened at Camp Pendleton actually became public knowledge?
- [15:51]
F
Hmm. Is it important? I think you. Steve, like, on a personal note, I've seen you grapple with this story over a period of some months. Right. And I think there was some eye opening that happened on your end, and I think that is positive. There you go.
- [16:12]
A
There you go.
- [16:13]
F
It seems like you're digging for hope here. Stories like this will do that to you. I'm not laughing at you.
- [16:22]
A
No, I know.
- [16:23]
F
I just know. I know that inclination.
- [16:27]
A
Yeah, you do want something to come out of this. It certainly didn't fix everything that was going on with the Marine Corps, but as far as I can tell, institutions like the Marine Corps, they don't change unless they're embarrassed, unless this stuff becomes public. But I guess in the end, it's the struggle that counts to a certain extent.
- [16:48]
F
I mean, the actual act of pushing back against something that you feel is unjust is powerful, even if it went the wrong way or not as they intended. I think just putting that effort out there is valuable.
- [17:04]
A
When you hear this, I mean, what are the questions you have about this
- [17:08]
F
particular story or about what is the plight of the black person in the United States of America?
- [17:14]
A
I don't know if you want to go that big. That's up to you.
- [17:17]
F
I was just saying, like, sometimes every time you hear these stories, it's like, oh, my goodness, I feel like I've heard this story before, except it was at a bakery or. Except it was, you know what I mean, in Tennessee, or there's just some slight difference in time frame or slight difference in circumstance. And maybe it's not the Ku Klux Klan, but it's just a group of racist folks. And it could have happened yesterday, it could have happened in 1892. I just don't know, like, where this ends.
- [17:49]
A
If you can come up with anything that makes this less depressing, now would be the time to raise it.
- [17:54]
F
I would Say that this is a depressing story, Steve. I don't think that there's. I mean, you're not gonna squeeze some hope out of it because, I mean, we saw what happened to these guys who all they were trying to do was fight against what they thought was, you know, discriminatory, racist people. And this is what happened. Right? Like, it definitely. There's no, like, Walt Disney ending here, but it is something we all have to deal with. And how could we have a happy ending? Because we as a country don't have a happy ending. We have not dealt with this at all. Not really. I mean, a little bit. This is not something that is isolated in 1977 or the Ku Klux Klan or some base or anywhere. It's all around us. Sorry, Steve. I think the whole thing should just be like you saying, so you're not shocked? And me saying, nope, not shocked. That should be our stick.
- [18:52]
A
The Marine Corps slowly tries to get a handle on institutional racism. They add more African American officers. Ken Dunn is a retired Marine colonel and a PhD scholar who teaches at Marine Corps University. He joined the marine Corps in 1974 after graduating from the Naval Academy. His stepfather had served in Vietnam in the army, and from what he saw, he didn't want his son to become an officer in a service that had not welcomed African Americans.
- [19:21]
G
My stepfather, he said, you know, coming into the Marine Corps would be a big waste of time. One of the reasons I was in the Marine Corps was to help the Marine Corps resolve some of its racial issues. In other words, the Marine Corps actively sought to bring in junior officers who would lead different units. Recognizing the fact that we're going to. That they would lead integrated units and that we would come in and we would help to bring equality within the ranks throughout the Marine Corps. So I felt like I was part of the solution to this problem as opposed to being part of the problem.
- [19:57]
A
In 1979, the San Diego Union carried a story that Frank Peterson would become the first African American general in the United States Marine Corps. In that same article, they point out that among the others in the latest class of colonels promoted to BRIGadier General is Colonel Mammon Johnson, the man who ran the Tutu area. In the article, Johnson is asked about race relations at Camp Pendleton. This time, he has no comment. Thousands of Marines, both black and white, were purged from the Corps in the years after the war. Historian Cameron McCoy, who looked at the history of African Americans in the Marine Corps through Vietnam, says the court martial process was often abused and many African Americans ended up with bad conduct discharges. It made it hard for them to find work and impossible for them to get benefits.
- [20:48]
H
So a bad conduct discharge is a felony. So once you've given all your time, you're stuck. You know, you're still stuck on your contract and you know you're going to get this bad conduct discharge upon leaving the Marine Corps or leaving the army or Air Force during this time. So that was definitely a tool that, at least in my research, seemed to be abused by many Marine officials. So they go back to their neighborhood in the worst position that they were in before they joined the military. And what it does is, again, it's this tool that is used to further supplant black progress. And at least that's what ends up coming through in my research. So that's what I found.
- [21:39]
A
The Pendleton 14 go from being national news to locally known to nearly forgotten, really, within a couple of years. I actually stumped Cameron McCoy, who's a Marine officer.
- [21:52]
H
I had never heard of this story. There is just a dearth of information with regard to blacks in the Marine Corps. This story surprised me. I wasn't surprised of the level of bigotry and racism in the west, but I was surprised that the Klan was actually on base. I mean, just with literal power on base. But I never heard of this story until you introduced it to me.
- [22:19]
A
Okay, this is all well and good, but what happened to the Marines and all that new information? Well, I know I said this was going to be the last episode, but there's just too much. I can't tell you what happened to everyone, but I know more now than when I finished episode four. You don't have to keep going. I'm not the boss of you. But if you want to know about a small town in Mississippi that is rallying around one of the 14 or how Ricky is doing, that's coming up on what I think is going to be the final episode of free the Pendleton 14.