Fresh Air: “A Courtside Look At NBA Legends, From Jordan To Kobe”
Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guests: Phil Jackson (legendary NBA coach), Sam Smith (veteran sports writer)
Episode focus: The intertwined history and evolution of the NBA, guided by stories and reflections from two men who witnessed and shaped it — Phil Jackson and Sam Smith — and their new book, Masters of the Game.
Episode Overview
Tonya Mosley sits down with NBA “Zen Master” Phil Jackson and acclaimed sportswriter Sam Smith to delve into their lived experiences across decades of basketball, exploring the league’s transformation from its earliest days to the modern era. Their conversation draws on stories from their collaborative book Masters of the Game, which aims to preserve the memory and essence of 75 defining players. The episode examines how basketball culture, strategy, and personalities have evolved, and reflects on pivotal figures like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The NBA’s Origins and Forgotten Legends
[01:41–05:04]
- The book is “less of a rankings book than it is a preservation project,” focused on capturing what made early stars unforgettable (Tonya Mosley).
- Early NBA was a small man’s game: gyms were converted hockey arenas, and many players were everyday workers (firemen, mailmen).
- Phil Jackson [02:11]: “They played in gyms that were hockey arenas … coming out of the cage era... there were barnstormers … the original Celtics... some of these old timers really influential in the game [are] having to take a back seat because history has overlooked them.”
- The physical and gritty roots:
- Sam Smith [04:22]: “One of the shorthands for basketball was cagers ... so physical and so rough in its early years that they literally played in cages to keep the fans and the players separated ... these guys were literally playing in cages.”
2. Nostalgia and Evolution: Old School vs. Modern Game
[05:04–08:21]
- On whether their reflection comes off as nostalgia or “old heads reminiscing”:
- Phil Jackson [05:40]: “We didn’t care. We really didn’t care.”
- Evolution of the game — from physicality and passing to the spectacle of the three-point shot and “all ball handlers” in today’s NBA:
- “It’s about getting the ball to the guy who’s standing open in the corner... However, the game still relies on penetration. That’s the number one point of view.”
- Commends Golden State’s team-oriented passing as a modern exception.
3. Coaching Superstar Players & Modern Challenges
[08:21–10:04]
- On whether millionaire athletes get harder to coach:
- Phil Jackson: “No...players want to be coached ... but the younger players striving to reach that max contract... can be too selfish for a team to overcome. I see that the Golden State Warriors are going through something similar...”
4. Greatness Debated: LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
[10:04–14:40]
- In the book, Phil labels LeBron a “master,” but not in his top five players:
- Phil Jackson [10:38]: “LeBron ... dominated the game for 20 years… definitely a master… but the things that were disappointing ... [were] self-reflection, you could see him fold ... in the course of a game or in the course of a series … you never saw that happen with Michael Jordan.”
- Sam and Phil agree on Jordan’s “closer” mentality and finishing ability:
- Sam Smith [12:35]: “Michael ... every time ... the finals ... finished it off. LeBron ... doesn’t only finish it off about three or four times ... can you give the ball to somebody and he can finish it for you. LeBron’s never been that kind of player.”
- Phil Jackson [13:36]: Adds how Jordan played fearlessly amid physical defenses: “He took the blows and went right back to the free throw line ... the Detroit Bad Boys were at their prime ... one of the things I admired ... his ability to play when players were playing four games in five nights...”
Notable Quote
“People wanted stuff from [Jordan] all the time, and he distrusted if you wanted something from him ... players want two things from a coach, just two things. Are you credible? ... can you help me be better?”
— Sam Smith [17:37]
5. Phil Jackson’s Coaching Philosophy & Building Trust
[14:40–19:34]
- Phil never asked Jordan for autographs or favors, to maintain trust and avoid “a layer between you”:
- Phil Jackson [16:57]: “It puts you on a different level when you start asking for things ... when you want to be in an influential space with someone, you want not to have that ... I recognized that as important as a leader and coach.”
- Sam Smith observes that Phil earned players’ trust by focusing solely on helping them improve, not exploiting their fame.
6. Kobe Bryant: Influence, Complexity, and Leadership
[20:59–24:43]
- Phil ranks Kobe as among the greats, highlighting his impact and clutch performances.
- Kobe’s relationship with Phil, and his emulation (but resistance to comparisons) with Jordan:
- Phil Jackson [22:21]: “He did not want to be compared to Michael, even though his game emulated Michael ... a huge influence on a kid like Kobe … his game was to compete on a level comparable to Michael’s.”
- On Kobe maturing from a young star focused on himself to a team leader:
- Phil Jackson [24:58]: “I queried him about ... being captain of the team ... [said] you need to really rub shoulders with your teammates. ... So I started giving him books ... leadership books…”
- Kobe’s leadership grew as the NBA brought in younger players who hadn’t developed those skills in college.
7. Kobe’s Legacy & Final Conversation
[27:00–28:42]
- Phil visited Kobe a week before his death; they discussed “the good times,” family, and coaching his daughter’s basketball team.
- Phil Jackson [27:10]: “It was heartbreak ... his legacy ... is being carried forward ... young players are using his example of hard work and tenaciousness and competitiveness...”
Notable Moment
“He could have been the best player in history ... if Shaq took the game seriously, nobody could have competed with him. Kobe took the game seriously because he wasn’t as physically talented ... so you sort of had to make a distinction. And I kind of … gravitated over toward Kobe’s side.”
— Sam Smith [30:37]
8. Race, Culture, and the NBA
[32:31–36:03]
- Tonya addresses Phil’s relationships with Black players, past accusations (notably by Scottie Pippen), and cultural context.
- Phil Jackson [33:36]:
- On being called racist: “...once you’re called a racist, it becomes like a label ... there’s no redeeming value in that. But … it was an incident in which Scotty didn’t get the opportunity ... a basketball decision.”
- On learning from Black teammates’ backgrounds and hardships, and his appreciation for diversity in the NBA.
9. Wisdom for Future Generations
[36:03–37:48]
- Sam Smith [36:24]: “Appreciate what and who has come before you … that’s kind of what I did ... appreciate what those you've preceded went through and had to overcome...”
- Phil Jackson [37:04]: Emphasizes privilege of being around unselfish, cooperative, and competitive players and the importance of coaching and culture.
Notable Quotes
-
On the evolution of the NBA
“The idea is take advantage of [the three-point shot]. And it has become the overwhelming feature in the NBA game today. However, all the lax rules that have contributed to this has kind of spiked this concept that this is what’s the most important thing. It’s not about how to set a pick or how do you dribble…”
— Phil Jackson [06:06] -
On Michael Jordan’s mentality
"Michael drew the spotlight on him, and that provoked him to play even better."
— Sam Smith [12:35] -
On being labeled a racist
"Once you're called a racist, it becomes like a label. You don’t live away from it or you don't overcome it by saying, 'no, some of my best friends are black.' That’s not how you do it … But one of the joys of being able to play in the NBA has been the relationship and the teammates..."
— Phil Jackson [33:36] -
On legacy and history
“Sort of appreciate what and who has come before you, what they achieved, how they went about it and learned from it, and respect it.”
— Sam Smith [36:24]
Key Segment Timestamps
- NBA history & “cagers”: 01:41–05:04
- Changes in NBA style & culture: 05:04–08:21
- Coaching modern millionaires: 08:21–10:04
- Jordan vs. LeBron debate: 10:04–14:40
- Philosophy of coaching/trust: 14:40–19:34
- Kobe Bryant’s influence & legacy: 20:59–28:42
- Race & cultural conversations: 32:31–36:03
- Final takeaways for the future: 36:03–37:48
Memorable Moments
- Jackson's brusque but clear stance on nostalgia: “We didn’t care. We really didn’t care.” [05:40]
- Candid comparison of LeBron and Jordan’s mentalities.
- Intimate look at Phil’s approach to trust with legendary players.
- The last in-person discussion between Jackson and Kobe — a poignant memory given Bryant’s untimely passing.
- Honest confrontation with race, culture, and legacy in basketball.
Tone and Language
The conversation balances vivid storytelling and candid critique, rooted in deep reverence for the game but unafraid to challenge both contemporary trends and public perceptions. Phil’s direct, sometimes brusque, style contrasts with Sam’s storyteller’s tone; Tonya brings nuance, warmth, and necessary questions on culture and race.
Summary
This episode is a rich, layered chronicle of basketball’s past and present. It’s as much about the people who shape the NBA — with their quirks, flaws, and greatness — as it is about the evolution of the sport itself. Phil Jackson and Sam Smith’s reflections, from smoky locker rooms to modern megastar athletes, offer fans not only a ringside seat to history, but also lessons on leadership, trust, and the importance of remembering those who paved the way.