Fresh Air — "A Revealing Profile Of Trump Chief Of Staff Susie Wiles"
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Chris Whipple, Vanity Fair writer
Episode Overview
This episode of Fresh Air dives into the life, influence, and philosophy of Susie Wiles, President Donald Trump’s White House Chief of Staff and the first woman ever to serve in that role. Host Terry Gross interviews Chris Whipple, whose two-part profile of Wiles, Eye of the Hurricane, was just published in Vanity Fair. Drawing on a year’s worth of unusually candid interviews with Wiles and sources in the Trump administration, Whipple explores Wiles’s behind-the-scenes power, unique relationship with Trump, her approach to "facilitating" presidential vision, internal debates about revenge, her take on Cabinet hardliners, Venezuela policy, the Epstein files, and much more.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Susie Wiles’s Rise and Role as Chief of Staff
- Trump’s Ear and Trust: Wiles is described as uniquely trusted by Trump—more so than his previous chiefs of staff (04:22).
- Behind-the-Scenes Operator: Wiles is “remarkably unguarded and candid” but keeps a very low public profile (05:57).
- Historic First: First woman chief of staff and described by Trump as “the most powerful woman in the world”—a claim Whipple and Gross discuss with both awe and skepticism (05:00).
Quote — Trump:
“I want to thank the great chief of staff, most powerful woman anywhere in the world...One phone call and the country is wiped out. But we’re not going to say that, because we’re a peace loving nation.”
(01:51)
2. Wiles’s Relationship with Trump
- Mutual Loyalty: She says she “loves coming to work every day” and “loves working for Trump,” emphasizing her role as a team player who feels “heard” even when Trump disagrees (02:39–03:42).
- Trust Over Time: Origin story dates back to her standing up to Trump during his 2016 campaign, which won his respect (07:12).
Quote — Wiles:
“We’ve been together a long time and I’m so lucky every day that he trusts me to make decisions and to make recommendations. He doesn’t always listen or do what I say. I don’t want him to, but I’m always heard.” (03:42)
3. Attempting to Tame Trump’s Instincts
- The “Revenge Tour” Agreement: Wiles claims she and Trump had a “loose agreement” that his post-election campaign of personal retribution would end in 90 days—something that quickly fell by the wayside (08:27).
- Shifting Approach: Early efforts to counsel against extremes (“tap the brakes”) gave way to her going “all in” on pursuing Trump’s agenda, including retribution (08:48–11:59).
Quote — Whipple:
“…in the course of this year-long journey as White House Chief of Staff, I could see that by the end she was all in. She was all in not only on MAGA, but… pursuing Trump's enemies, having them prosecuted.” (09:49)
4. Her Approach to Power: Facilitator, Not Roadblock
- Philosophy: Wiles sees her job as “fulfilling the president’s mission”—focusing on execution, not restraint (12:12).
- Contrast to Predecessors: Whipple argues that a chief of staff must also tell the president what he does not want to hear—a role Wiles appears to neglect (12:12–13:44).
Quote — Whipple:
“You cannot fulfill the President’s vision… without steering him clear of landmines. You have to have the tough conversations.” (13:27)
- Disputes the "Enabler" Label: Wiles takes offense at being called an “enabler," telling Whipple, “I’m not an enabler and I’m not a bitch.” (19:17)
5. Influence on Cabinet and Allies
- Cabinet Selection: Wiles helped assemble a Cabinet of hardliners but thinks of herself as more pragmatic than ideological (13:44–14:47, 18:05).
- Views on Key Figures:
- J.D. Vance (VP): Calls him a “conspiracy theorist for 10 years” but also a “fan.” Sees his Trump loyalty as political, not principled (15:00–16:22).
- Rubio: Views his Trump conversion as sincere (15:20).
- Russell Vogt (OMB/Project 2025): Calls him a “right wing, absolute zealot,” but in the Trump orbit this is not an insult (16:22–18:05).
6. Policy: Venezuela Strikes
- Unapologetic Support: Backs US missile strikes against Venezuelan boats, insisting targets are drug dealers (23:13).
- Goal Is Regime Change?: Quips, “He wants to keep blowing up boats until Maduro cries uncle,” suggesting a regime change motive contradictory to official statements (23:13–25:00).
- Legal Justification: Argues international waters mean the strikes don't constitute war crimes; land strikes would require Congress (25:00–26:48).
7. Wiles’s Personal History; Understanding Trump
- Dealing with Grandiose Men: Grew up with her father, broadcaster and former NFL kicker Pat Summerall, who had an “alcoholic personality,” a trait Wiles also uses to describe Trump—not because of substance abuse, but grandiosity and a sense that anything is possible (26:48–27:27).
- Trump Obsessed with “Genes”: Trump repeatedly tells Wiles he “judges people by their genes,” evident in both his hiring (e.g., RFK Jr.) and his admiration for Wiles as Summerall’s daughter (29:32).
Quote — Wiles:
“I specialize in [dealing with men with big personalities].” (27:27)
8. On Major Administration Controversies
- Elon Musk & DOGE: Critical of Musk's gutting of USAID and PEPFAR as part of government cost-cutting, describing Musk as an “odd duck... a kind of jacked up Nosferatu,” but recognizes that fixing the chaos fell to her, not Trump (32:15–34:02).
- Epstein Files: Admits Trump is “all over” Epstein files but “not doing anything awful.” Critiques Pam Bondi’s mishandling of the hotly anticipated file release. Says she doesn’t expect anything “earth-shaking” from upcoming releases (34:26–36:51).
- Maxwell Interview: DOJ's Todd Blanche took the unusual step of interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, allegedly on his own suggestion; Wiles and Trump were not informed of her transfer to a less secure facility and claimed to be “ticked off” (37:13–38:46).
9. Inside the White House
- Renovations: Unconcerned about controversy over demolishing the East Wing for Trump’s ballroom, suggests bigger changes are coming (41:17).
- Trump’s Social Feed: Staff monitor a live feed of Trump’s Truth Social posts in Wiles’s office (41:17–42:48).
10. Midterm Prospects & Trump's Health
- Approval Ratings: Wiles dismisses poor approval ratings, focusing only on midterm results, for which she predicts victory despite history suggesting otherwise (43:06).
- Health & Cognition: Defends Trump's physical and mental faculties, dismisses incidents like apparent falling asleep during meetings as merely “closing his eyes.” Defends Trump's demeaning outbursts at women as a product of “counterpunching” (44:39–46:11).
11. Final Assessment of Wiles’ Impact
-
Potential vs. Reality: Whipple suggests Wiles has unmatched influence, but wonders if she’s failing history by not using it to course-correct Trump:
“Given that influence... it really makes you wonder if history might be different if she used that influence to tell the president hard truths... But we don't know because I'm not sure she's tried.” (46:28)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 01:51 | Trump | “One phone call and the country is wiped out. But we're not going to say that, because we're a peace loving nation.” | | 03:42 | Wiles | “He doesn't always listen or do what I say. I don't want him to, but I'm always heard.” | | 07:12 | Whipple | “She steeled herself... told Donald Trump that if you want to win Florida, I can do that. If you want someone who sets their hair on fire, I'm not your girl.” | | 09:49 | Whipple | “By the end, she was all in... on pursuing Trump's enemies, having them prosecuted.” | | 13:27 | Whipple | “You cannot fulfill the President’s vision... without steering him clear of landmines.” | | 19:17 | Wiles | “I'm not an enabler and I'm not a bitch.” | | 23:13 | Wiles | “He wants to keep blowing up boats until Maduro cries uncle.” | | 27:27 | Whipple | “She said to me, I’m kind of an expert at that. I specialize in it, she said, about dealing with men with big personalities.” | | 29:32 | Whipple | “If she’s heard it once, she's heard it a hundred times. Trump judges people by their genes.” | | 32:15 | Whipple | “[Elon Musk]... like some kind of jacked up Nosferatu... aghast when she discovered... vital life saving immunization programs in Africa... gutted.” | | 34:26 | Whipple | “She says Trump is in [the Epstein file], he's all over it, but not doing anything awful, as she put it.” | | 46:28 | Whipple | “...makes you wonder if history might be different if she used that influence to tell the president hard truths... I'm not sure she's tried.” |
Timeline of Important Segments
- 00:16–04:00 — Terry Gross introduces the episode and plays audio montages of Trump and Wiles.
- 04:19–05:53 — Whipple discusses Wiles’s unusual access and trust with Trump.
- 07:12–08:27 — Wiles’s 2016 confrontation with Trump and its consequences.
- 08:48–11:59 — The “revenge tour” pact and her evolving approach.
- 13:44–19:17 — Cabinet selection, hardliners, and “enabler” debate.
- 23:13–25:30 — Wiles supports Venezuela strikes, providing candid views on legal and moral justifications.
- 26:48–29:32 — Pat Summerall’s influence, “alcoholic’s personality,” and Trump’s obsession with genes.
- 32:15–34:02 — Elon Musk’s "DOGE" campaign and its fallout.
- 34:26–38:46 — Epstein files, Clinton rumors, Maxwell interview.
- 41:17–42:48 — White House renovations, social media monitoring.
- 43:06–46:24 — Poll numbers, midterm anxieties, Trump’s health.
- 46:28–48:10 — Whipple’s final reflection: Wiles’s potential and limits as Trump’s chief of staff.
Conclusion
Chris Whipple provides a remarkable inside look at Susie Wiles—a pragmatic, non-ideological operator with Trump’s total trust but a strategy focused on execution rather than restraint. Admired by Trump for her “genes” and loyalty, she walks the line between facilitator and enabler, shepherding the administration’s hardline policies, rarely (anymore) acting as a check on Trump's impulses. Whipple wonders what history might look like if Wiles were more willing to use her influence to check the president rather than simply clear his path.
For a more detailed exploration, read Chris Whipple’s full piece "Eye of the Hurricane" on Vanity Fair’s website.