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Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Earlier this month, it became a lot easier to see Billie, Eilish and Finneas in concert well, at least in concert at the movie theater. Along with filmmaker James Cameron, Eilish produced and directed the new concert film Hit Me Hard and the tour. Hit Me Hard and Soft is also the name of their 2024 album, and its release was the occasion for the interview we're about to hear with Eilish and her brother Finneas. The song Wildflower from that album won a Grammy for Song of the Year. Billie Eilish and Finneas o' Connell write songs together. She sings on their albums. He produces and plays several instruments. They began writing and recording together when she was 13 and he was 18. Considering the number of records they've broken in the last, they became more than popular. They became a phenomenon. Their album when We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories best record, album, song and new artist, all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for producer of the year. Non classical Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film no Time to Die and and another for what Was I Made for from the Barbie movie. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. Billie spent her teens in front of her fans and The Press. In 2019, music critic John Perales wrote in the New York times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death, haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice. Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is l' Amour de ma Vie, which is French.
- [02:19]
For the love of my life, I
- [02:22]
Billie Eilish
wish you the best for the rest of your life. Felt sorry for you and I looked
- [02:30]
in your eyes But I need to confess I do Told you a lie I said you, You
- [02:50]
were the love of my life the love of my life. Did I break your heart? Did I waste your time? I tried to be there for you Then you tried to Break mine. It isn't asking for a lot. For an apology for making me feel I could kill you if I tried. You said you'd never fall in love again because of me. Then you moved on immediately.
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Terry Gross
Billie Eilish, Phineas o', Connell, welcome to Fresh air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy, it strikes me you're singing more
- [03:55]
in a fuller voice.
- [03:56]
What's changing about your voice and how
- [03:58]
you choose to use it?
- [04:01]
Billie Eilish
Well, you know, we started making music when I was about 13, and as most 13 year olds, I had not, you know, grown into my body and my voice and all the things that you age into as a human. And I always, you know, it's funny, like, when things like that happen at a young age, you kind of have this idea that that's how things are going to be forever. And so in my mind at the time, my voice was going to sound like it was did then forever. I thought it was going to be soft and my range wasn't going to be very big and I wasn't ever going to be able to belt and I wasn't ever going to be able to, you know, have much of a chest mix in my voice. And I spent many years touring and singing and doing shows, and my voice matured and started to change. And in the making of hit me hard and soft. I started working with a singing teacher, which I hadn't done since I was a kid in my choir. And I kind of always, like, felt hesitant to and kind of embarrassed to somehow. And it completely has just honestly changed my life. And I mean, I've just. My voice has just gotten, you know, 10 times better in the last two years. And what's amazing is it's just gonna keep getting better.
- [05:21]
Terry Gross
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like, that's the weary voice?
- [05:26]
Billie Eilish
No, that's just how I sang.
- [05:27]
That's what's funny about it.
- [05:28]
I just, you know, I was like, I couldn't really do much else. Like, I didn't have the range, I didn't have the strength in my vocal cords and my breathing. You know, think about, you know, how your voice sounded when you were a kid.
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Opposed to now, it's a completely different thing.
- [05:43]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And Phineas, I assume you do the arrangements.
- [05:46]
Finneas O'Connell
I would say that I do plenty
- [05:49]
of it, but Billy is deeply involved and I would say that as time has gone on, Billie has become kind of more knowledgeable and articulate about what she likes and what she doesn't in instrumental arrangement and production and vocal arrangement. So we're either brainstorming stuff together or at the very least, she's reacting to, you know, what I do in a kind of a. I like that. Go further. I don't. I'm not crazy about that. You know, take that out kind of a sense, if that makes sense.
- [06:18]
Terry Gross
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much. And it's called the Diner. So, Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
- [06:31]
Finneas O'Connell
The Diner is a slight anomaly in
- [06:36]
terms of the way that Billy and I most commonly work. I would say the way that we most commonly work is I sit down with a guitar or I sit down at a piano and I play chords and Billy sings melodies and we come up with lyrics and melodies together over top of chords. In the case of the Diner, on my own, I had made what became sort of most of the instrumental of the Diner. I'd been sitting around one day playing that sort of sampled re articulated horn thing. You take kind of a one track of a horn being played and then you load it onto a keyboard and the horn is then chromatic on the keyboard and you play the bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. That's me playing piano, but through a horn sample. And then I programmed drum samples and then bass synthesizers over top of that. And I presented it to Billy and then she rift, you know, these super menacing cool lyrics over top of it.
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Terry Gross
So let's hear the Diner.
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Billie Eilish
I'm here in the. I'm waiting on your.
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Terry Gross
That was the Diner from the new Billie Eilish album.
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Hit me hard and soft.
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And my guests are Billie Eilish and Finneas. Finneas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billy is on and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms
- [09:12]
of the nature of your music partnership?
- [09:16]
Finneas O'Connell
First of all, we lived together. We both lived at home with our parents when we started making music. I was 18 and Billy was 13. And over the ensuing, you know, years, even after I moved out into my own place as a 21 year old, we still made most of the music in the bedroom in my childhood home. And as time went on and Billie's tour became a more and more heavy lift, she started to need to be more kind of diligent about how much vocal rest and physical rest she was getting on the road, which meant that we were making less music on the road and the sort of turn of the tide there was that we would come off the road and had made nothing new, and then we'd kind of have a detox at home where we would, you know, have just spent every day together for several months, and we'd kind of chill out, and then we'd sort of reconvene and start making new music. And then we'd go back out on the road. And so it just became a kind of a version of, like, wow, this is. This is going to dominate every minute of my life. And I feel that I'm really not the, you know, best pianist, guitarist, backup singer, accompanist for Billy. You know, that's not the thing. That is my sort of special skill there. My special skill is being able to write and record songs with her. And so if I am picking between the two, and I have other stuff on my plate, I'll pick making the album every time.
- [10:50]
Terry Gross
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these teenagers, especially teenage girls, as such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up as a teenage star with
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so many teenage listeners kind of idolizing you?
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And then, judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but, you know, for any insecurity you have to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been. Well, maybe was a little disorienting, definitely.
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Billie Eilish
I think, though, honestly, even though it was a lot for a young brain and body to deal with, in a way, the fact that I was a teenager and they were also teenagers somehow felt less, kind of. I don't know, I felt. I think I just felt so connected to them because we were all the same age. And I. You know, I think it can be really hard when you're an adult and you have fans that are children to you or, you know, way older than you. Like, I think that it. I think that something about us all kind of feeling like we were growing up together was like. Like, honestly comforting to me. And also, I didn't really have many friends for a couple of years, and,
- [12:34]
Terry Gross
well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or in, you know, in the
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classrooms with your peers.
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Billie Eilish
We were homeschooled. We didn't go to school. But Finneas and I both had so many friends growing up, and we did so many things, and there was no shortage of friends. There was no shortage of activities and, you know, things to do, which I think can be surprising for people to hear because they kind of think like, well, then how did you meet them? And, you know, we had all sorts of things. We did. I was part of a choir, and I was in a dance company, and I. We did aerial arts, and I rode horses, and I did gymnastics, and I acted, and Phineas acted, and I was in a. You know, there were so many things that were social for us. And honestly, when I became Famous.ish. at 14, it was not a good time in terms of, like, keeping friendships. I think when you're 14, that's kind of an age where friendships are already kind of rocky. And also, all my friends did go to school, so, like, they were all going to high school, and. And suddenly I had no way of relating to anyone. And I kind of lost all my friends, and I. I maintained a couple, but those were really challenging to keep even still. And so for those few years of becoming this, like, enormous superstar, I was kind of feeling like, wait, what the hell is the point? I don't have any friends, and I don't have, like. Like, I'm losing all the things that I love so deeply and all the people that I love. And so, in a way, the fans kind of saved me in that way because they were my age, and I felt like they were the only kind of friends I had for a while.
- [14:32]
Terry Gross
Phineas, what's it been like for you? Especially, you know, early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your te. Your late teens? What was it like for you to
- [14:42]
have an audience dominated by teenage girls?
- [14:46]
When you're a guy and you're also older, you know, you're four or five years older than Billy.
- [14:54]
Finneas O'Connell
Yeah, I'm four years older. So I would say that I didn't
- [15:00]
have much of a kind of a feeling one way or the other about the age or gender of the predominant audience. I had a real sense of gratitude for their enthusiasm. And, you know, the audience that was coming to the shows that Billy was playing couldn't have been more engaged and enthusiastic.
- [15:22]
Terry Gross
Billy, I've read that some girls or, you know, young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started?
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Billie Eilish
I mean, that's like a classic.
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Terry Gross
Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know. Right.
- [15:43]
Billie Eilish
Well, it's funny. Like, I always envied that. I remember, like, watching, you know, videos of Men performing, whoever they may be, and, you know, people throwing bras and underwear and, you know, and I always thought, like, that's so awesome. So it's so sick, so powerful. I always was just jealous of that. And I remember when I was first doing shows, you know, fans throw all sorts of things on stage. They throw gifts and presents and different flags of different kinds. And honestly, like, right away, people started throwing bras when we were all me and the audience, 16. And I loved it. I really did. You know, I had. I spent many years having a lot of not. Not gender dysphoria about my own gender. But I think a lot of women go through the feeling of, you know, just envying men in any kind of way, one way or the other. And for me, I would watch videos of different male performers on stage and just feel this, like, deep sadness in my body that I'll never be able to, you know, take my shirt off on stage and run around and, like, not try very hard and, like, you know, just jump around on stage and that's enough. And, you know, have enough energy from just myself with no backup dancers and no, you know, huge stage production, and the crowd will still love me. And that's just like, only a man can do that. And because of that, I think more than almost anything else in my career, I was very, very, very determined to kind of prove that thought wrong. And I really did. I really feel like I did. I didn't like the kind of pop girl, leotard, you know, backup dancers, hair done thing. I didn't like that for me. I liked it for other people. But that didn't resonate with me. I never saw myself in those. And honestly, I never saw myself in any women that I saw on stage, but I did see myself in the men that I saw on stage. And I thought that was unfair. And so I did everything that I could to kind of try to break that within myself and the industry.
- [18:10]
Terry Gross
But, you know, on a related note, you often dress, you know, on videos and in performance, on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, like, since you grew up with a lot of hip hop, you know, in a lot of hip hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in, like, really tight and scanty kind of clothes.
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And the men are wearing, like, baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy
- [18:42]
they're, like, falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip
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hop in terms of dress and as opposed to the women.
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Billie Eilish
Yes, exactly correct. I would watch those videos and instead of being jealous of the women who get to be around the hot men, I would be jealous of the hot men. And I wanted to be them and I wanted to dress like them and I wanted to, you know, be able to act like them. And to be fair, I had all sorts of women that I looked up to and artists that I, you know, are the reason that I am who I am. And also I wouldn't have been able, even if I'd felt the way I did, I wouldn't have been able to achieve it had it not been for the incredibly powerful, strong willed women artists and people in the public eye that came before me that made it possible for me. So, like, my favorite singers are all kind of old jazz singers that I've always looked up to and I'm always forcing people to watch videos of Ella Fitzgerald singing live and Julie London singing live and, you know, Sarah Vaughn and Nancy Wilson and all these people. We were watching these videos and every single one, of course, because of that period of time, they're all wearing dresses, they're all wearing tight, you know, corseted, maybe dresses with their hair done. But like they didn't, they couldn't, they couldn't just not do that. You know, that's part of how things were then. And so thank God that those women came before me because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do anything.
- [20:18]
Terry Gross
We're listening to the interview I recorded
- [20:20]
with Billie Eilish and Finneas in 2024 after the release of their album Hit Me Hard and Soft. Eilish co directed a new concert film with James Cameron called Hit Me Hard and the Tour. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. Hey, I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.
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Billie Eilish
Skin you carry, you go on going.
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- [22:22]
Terry Gross
play Ocean Eyes, which is the first thing that you recorded together.
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You put it on SoundCloud.
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It went viral for reasons I don't understand how things by people unknown go viral, but it did.
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And that, to be honest with you,
- [22:35]
Finneas O'Connell
Terry, I also don't understand how.
- [22:36]
Billie Eilish
I don't understand.
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Terry Gross
Good.
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Thank you for the validation.
- [22:40]
So I want to play that song because, Billy, you were talking earlier about
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how when you started recording when you
- [22:46]
were 13, you were much younger, your voice was different. But Phineas, I want to ask you first. I think not many teenage boys would think like, oh, I want to hang out and write songs with and record
- [23:01]
with my younger sister who's 13.
- [23:04]
What made you think, oh, Billy has to sing this because I know initially you were going to write it for your band.
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Finneas O'Connell
Well, I think, you know, the three layered answer to that is Billy and I have always gotten along great and really liked spending time together. I'm sure being homeschooled impacted that because we had a relationship that might have been more three dimensional than if we were in separate grades and saw each other a little bit on the weekend and saw each other a little bit while we did our homework or something. We spent a lot of time together having nuanced conversations. That's number one in terms of wanting to spend time with her. Number two is she had a really beautiful voice. And so I think even in addition to liking her as a presence in my life, I saw her talent and respected her talent. And then the third one is I needed a guinea pig, you know, the third one is I was, you know, a amateur producer trying my best to record anyone. And so, you know, Billy, as a 13 year old who basically never sung into a microphone at all, you know, obliged and it was kind of a good match. The kind of backstory is, you know, I was in this band, I loved music from the time I was, you know, born and then wanted to be a musician professionally from the time I was about 12 and played in bands all through high school and sort of as I started to learn more about how to produce, I got more interested in pop music and alternative music. And I had this friend who knew that I was like, in a band. And he was like, hey, you produce, right? His name was Frank. He was like, you produce, right? And I kind of was like, I mean, not very well. Like, you know, I was able to see that I was pretty lackluster. And he was like. He was like, great, I'm sure you're gonna be great. I need you to produce some songs I'm gonna do. And, you know, he was also very green, but he just gassed me up. He just believed that I was more talented than I was and I'd play something and he'd be like, that's incredible, bro. And that really gave me all this confidence that I would never have otherwise had. And, you know, Billie, too, I was making music with Billy in my bedroom and being, you know, trying my best. And she was kind about it. She was like, oh, I like that. She liked Ocean Eyes. You know, I think that I got so much positive reinforcement when I really needed it. When I find out people have had careers in the arts when they were actively discouraged. You know, when you hear somebody say, oh, man, my mom hated my voice, I'm always kind of blown away because to me, I had enough self doubt and enough, you know, imposter syndrome that if anyone had said, you're not very good, I would have been like, correct. I agree. You know, let me stop doing this now. And it really took people like Billy and people like my friend Frank to be like, no, no, no, you're better than you think you are. To kind of give me the confidence that I needed.
- [26:02]
Terry Gross
Okay, so let's listen to Ocean Eyes as recorded by the 13 year old Billie Eilish and the 17 or 18 I was 18. 18 year old Phineas. So here it is.
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Billie Eilish
I've been watching you for some time can't stop staring at those oceans Ice burning season napalm skies 15 flares inside those ocean eyes. Your ocean light so far.
- [27:01]
You really make me cry when you give me those ocean lights I'm scared sa.
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Terry Gross
That was Ocean Eyes, the first song that Billie Eilish and Phineas recorded together. A song written by Finneas recorded at home that went viral and really launched their careers. Your mother, when she was homeschooling, you gave you classes on songwriting. Are there insights that she gave you
- [27:49]
both that stuck with you?
- [27:53]
Billie Eilish
Yeah. I mean, honestly, there was one thing that really helped me, which was our mom had us like go home and like watch something on TV or read something and just write down any interesting words that we see or like an interesting sentence and then kind of taking whatever you wrote and just try to make a song out of what you wrote or make a song about the thing that you thought was cool or about this one word or, you know, at least incorporating this one word into a song you already wrote. Just like new ways of kind of taking pressure off of yourself a little. Like that really helped me because songwriting always felt like a lot of pressure on me in myself alone. And I think that I don't know if Finneas would agree. But, like something that I think has always helped in songwriting is giving yourself permission to write a bad song. I think that sometimes you have this high expectation for yourself and you're like, no, no, it has to be really good. But you can't just sit down and make something perfect immediately every time you have to try and fail. And that was something that was really hard for me. I'm not good at patience and I'm not good at not being good at something until I am. I want to be really good immediately. And I think it's just something that helped me a lot is just allowing myself to not be amazing and just make something to make it and not worry if it's good.
- [29:24]
Terry Gross
If you're just joining us, we're listening
- [29:26]
to my interview with Billie Eilish and finneas, recorded in 2024 after the release of their album Hit Me Hard and Soft. Eilish co produced and co directed a new concert film with James Cameron. It's called Hit Me Hard and the Tour. More after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [29:44]
Reporter
The Trump administration is backtracking on federal efforts to fight climate change, so city and state governments are stepping in.
- [29:52]
Terry Gross
We think we are standing what can
- [29:54]
Billie Eilish
be the future of energy in Denver?
- [29:57]
Reporter
On the Sunday story climate solutions on the local level. Listen now on the upfirst podcast on the NPR app.
- [30:08]
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- [30:39]
Terry Gross
I want to play another song from
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Hit Me Hard and Soft.
- [30:42]
And this song is called Skinny and Billy, it's talking about how people think you look happy because you're skinny. You know, that you lost weight, but you write. But I still cry. Did losing weight make a difference in your life? And do you, like, bounce back and forth because that's something so many people in your audience would relate to.
- [31:04]
Billie Eilish
Yeah, you know, I, like, everyone and every woman, suffer with a lot of body image issues and just hatred and dysmorphia. And I always have since I was a kid, and I still have that girl in me. And, you know, I've had a lot of, as a human does, getting thinner and then getting bigger and then getting fit and then getting not as fit. Like, your body changes over time, especially depending on, like, how you're living your life. And a couple years back, when we were making this album, I had been on this, like, really intense kind of health journey, and I had lost a lot of weight, and I'd gotten so strong, and I was, like, thinner than I'd ever been and stronger than I'd ever been. But separately, I was, like, extremely unhappy and unaware of how unhappy I was until I was happy again, kind of thing.
- [32:10]
Terry Gross
Were you unhappy because you weren't eating enough?
- [32:13]
Billie Eilish
No. Honestly, my fitness journey was, like, the thing that I held on to that I was the most proud of. But what was really interesting was I felt really proud of my body and how. How hard I'd worked. I mean, I was working out, like, two hours, like five or six days a week, and, you know, wasn't eating gluten and dairy and sugar and past 7:00pm and, you know, not a fun way to live at all. But it was something that, you know, I'm a. I'm an addictive person, and that was something that I got very addicted to, and I loved that experience.
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Terry Gross
But you were sad.
- [32:52]
Billie Eilish
Yeah, I didn't have much else to hold on to, and I really had that. I had this kind of journey of my strength, kind of. And within that period of time, I would be on tour and I would come back. And I remember, like, every single person that I would see that I hadn't seen in many weeks would be like, oh, my God, you look amazing. You look so skinny. Wow. You look so happy. You look so healthy. Wow, Billy, you just look like you're just glowing, like you're just so happy. And it's just so nice to see her so happy. And, yeah, she's just doing so great. And it was really interesting because I got obsessed with that validation, and I. I loved it. I loved every single thing that everybody said to me. But then I kind of started to think, like, that's really interesting because I'm not happy at all, but I definitely am skinny.
- [33:45]
Finneas O'Connell
But I also, like, the body equivalent of, like, you know, money doesn't buy you happiness or something where you're, like, looking the way I thought I wanted to look. Doesn't make me happy either.
- [33:54]
Billie Eilish
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, Skinny was a song that we wrote out of a really, really, like, uninspired period of time that we had not created anything in and, like, had no ideas for anything. And it was just kind of a depressing period of time. And we were sitting in a studio and we wanted to write something. I really wanted to write something and couldn't come up with anything. And Phineas started playing chords, and I started riffing on melodies, and the lyrics came about because Phineas could see how I was feeling and kind of, you know, starts asking me questions, and I start talking about how I feel and the things I've been going through. And he's just so good at seeing me like nobody else does and, like, I don't even. And being able to put it into words in a way that, you know, I didn't even realize I was feeling, you know? And like, he said that lyric, people say I look happy just because I got skinny but the old me is still me and maybe the real me. And I think she's pretty. And that was his lyric. And it's funny that he wrote that because it's me. It's how I felt. But it's just the magic of, like, working with somebody who, a, is such a genius but also knows you like nobody else does.
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Terry Gross
That's a great relationship to have. Let's hear the song. This is Skinny from Billie Eilish's new album, which is called Hit Me Hard and Soft.
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Billie Eilish
I fell in love for the first time with a friend It's a good sign Feeling off when I feel fine 21 took a lifetime People say I look happy Just because I got skinny but the old me is still me and maybe the real me and I think she's pretty.
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And I still cry,
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Cry.
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Do you know what?
- [36:22]
Am I acting my age now? Am I already on the way out? When I step off the stage I'm a bird in a cage I'm a dog in a dog and you sit I was your secret and you didn't get to keep it and the Internet is hungry for the mean it's kind
- [36:46]
Terry Gross
of funny and somebody's gotta feed it that's Skinny. And my guests are Billie, Eilish and Finneas. And their new album is called Hit
- [36:55]
Me Hard and Soft.
- [36:58]
I think some of your fans think that you're reading their mind or telling their story.
- [37:02]
Billie Eilish
Mm.
- [37:04]
My favorite.
- [37:04]
Terry Gross
No pressure.
- [37:06]
Billie Eilish
I know. My favorite is, like, when I put a song out. When we put a song out and, like, people are like, you know, how did she know I was feeling, you know, feeling this, like, what? Where is she hiding in my room and has been hiding for the last, like, year of my life to write this song. That's exactly my life. I think that's like, one of the
- [37:28]
most magical parts about music.
- [37:30]
And I've had that as a fan too. And Finneas has too. Like, you hear a song and you're like, oh, my God, this is exactly my situation. How could that be? But it's just that it can be because we're just all, like, suffering together. And it's nice to know that you're not alone in that.
- [37:47]
Terry Gross
Finneas, you have a new album and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family because I think your parents are often touring with you, or at least they used to. So this is your song, Finneas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
- [38:14]
Finneas O'Connell
Sure. We had just finished making Billy's album and it was about to come out and I knew that this, you know, multi year world tour was on the horizon for her and that I wouldn't be on it. I was just sort of thinking about my relationship with her and how kind of public our family had become. And, you know, she's a public figure, I'm a lesser public figure. There's a lot of attention and judgment paid to us both and especially to Billie, and sort of a rumination on that.
- [38:46]
Terry Gross
Billie Eilish, Finneas o', Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show.
- [38:54]
Billie Eilish
Thank you so much for having us.
- [38:56]
Finneas O'Connell
Thanks so much, Terry.
- [38:58]
Mom and dad are out of town the two of us are grown ups now Pepper had to be put down Hard to take hard to own not hard to break a collarbone A little late but not alone and you're only 22 and the world is watching you Judging everything you do Just a house and just a room Just a handful of balloons Just another afternoon Just the way it almost was when it's just the two of us sleep all day. I'll wake you up when it's just the two of us.
- [40:11]
Terry Gross
Billie Eilish and Phineas o'. Connell. Eilish co directed a concert film with James Cameron called Hit Me Hard and the Tour. We spoke in 2024 after the release of their album Hit Me Hard and Soft. Coming up on this Memorial Day, our book critic Maureen Corrigan reflects on the books the U.S. government issued to soldiers during World War II. This is FRESH AIR.
- [40:35]
Noah Kahn
On NPR's Wildcard podcast, musician Noah Kahn says he's learned to live with depression.
- [40:41]
I think depression and anxiety give you sneaky superpowers in a lot of ways, like the power of understanding and sympathizing, being able to talk about my flaws without it having to be like this terrible taboo thing.
- [40:53]
Watch or listen to that Wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube. NPRWildcard.
- [41:00]
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- [41:32]
Terry Gross
book critic Maureen Corrigan offers some reflections on the books that were carried into World War II.
- [41:38]
Maureen Corrigan
When I was growing up, many of the dads in my neighborhood had served in World War II. True to stereotype, none of them talked much about the war. Information came sideways. My best friend's dad, who'd been in the Air Force in China, taught us how to say hot water in Mandarin. Another dad, an army vet, let slip that he'd burned his uniform upon returning home, which puzzled us. And my own dad, a Navy vet, once said something about the funny paperbacks around during the war. It wasn't until I began researching my book on the Great Gatsby that I realized my father had been one of the millions of servicemen on the receiving end of what's been the biggest book giveaway in history. When the US entered World War II, there was an effort to get books into the hands of servicemen to combat boredom. The books, though, had to be light and small enough to fit in servicemen's pockets. That was only one of the challenges faced by a group of publishers, librarians and booksellers who composed the Council on Books in Wartime. The distribution program the council eventually adopted stood in contrast to the Nazi book Burnings that began in 1933. The motto of the Council on Books in Wartime was Books are weapons. In the war of Ideas, America would
- [43:15]
initiate a program for servicemen that would implicitly affirm the freedom to read widely. Colonel Ray Troutman is the hero of this story. In a terrific forthcoming book called A
- [43:30]
Librarian's War that'll be available in September,
- [43:34]
Molly Guptal Manning details how Trautman came up with the idea of not just distributing books for the troops, but producing them. The Armed Services Editions, or ases, as they were called, were those funny paperbacks that my father had mentioned to me printed on pulp paper. The Armed Services editions began rolling off presses in 1943. By the time the program came to an end in 1947, nearly 123 million books were distributed to US troops. The greatest distribution was on the eve of D Day.
- [44:17]
Every soldier going over in a landing craft carried an ASE in his pocket. The most popular of the D Day titles was Betty Smith's A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Just as inspiring to my mind was the fact that the Council selection committee didn't limit its choices to just those books they assumed the troops would like. Sure, there were plenty of cowboy stories, Tarzan tales, and suspense fiction. Forever Amber, a steamy historical romance by Kathleen Windsor, was especially popular. But among the 1,322 titles produced during the lifetime of the ASES were Moby Dick biographies of Frederick Douglass and Queen Victoria, essays by Lincoln and Emerson, and poetry collections by Longfellow, keats and Edna St Vincent Millay. It must be acknowledged that the ASEs were overwhelmingly written by white authors. It should also be acknowledged that there were efforts to ban some of the books in A Librarian's War. Manning describes how, in advance of the 1944 presidential election, armed services editions that were perceived, however, indirectly to favor then President Roosevelt were targeted for purging. In response, newspapers around the country ran editorials and letters from readers decrying the bannings. Even the troops themselves got wind of the bannings and protested. Manning quotes one soldier's letter that says it will be recalled that Mr. Hitler got his start by banning and burning books with which he in his wisdom did not agree.
- [46:15]
Widespread pushback triumphed and soldiers freedom to read prevailed.
- [46:22]
If you can't wait for A Librarian's
- [46:25]
War, there are other good books to read about the Armed services editions, including Manning's earlier book on the program called When Books Went to War and a slim volume published by the Library of Congress called Books in Action. I found myself at the Library of Congress back in 2012. On the trail of how the Great Gatsby, published in 1925 to mixed reviews and disappointing sales, came back from relative obscurity so quickly after F. Scott Fitzgerald's death in 1940. A crucial part of the answer was the Armed Services editions. Gatsby was published as an ASE in 1945 155,000 copies were distributed to servicemen that year. The Library of Congress, our national temple of books, has the only complete collection of Armed Services editions. Anyone can apply for access. Believe me, it's a powerful experience to hold one of these little books and think of the service it performed.
- [47:42]
Terry Gross
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. Tomorrow on FRESH air, David Sedaris discusses his new book of essays, the Land and Its People, reflecting on his life as a foreigner, brother and caretaker of his husband, Hugh. While Hugh recovered from surgery, he also explains why he still calls you his boyfriend, though they're married, and why he got his sisters to sign contracts promising they'd never get married. I hope you'll join us to keep
- [48:12]
up with what's on the show and
- [48:13]
get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram. P R FRESH air. FRESH air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Rebodonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakindi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [48:52]
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- [49:20]
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- [49:51]
Podcast Host
this week on sources and methods. Every white House has an official counterterrorism plan, a strategy document, basically. But President Trump's new 2026 plan shifts focus to left wing extremism. We're unpacking what's in the document and who influenced it this week on sources and methods. You can listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.