B (2:49)

Well, I thought the most interesting thing is you do take two archetypes of. I don't like these words because these words are subjective. But if you take an alpha male and a beta male, even though I think everyone's idea of an alpha and a beta is very different person to person, if you take the stereotypical alpha and beta and you put them in a two shot opposite each other, one's kind of muscly and terrifying looking and the other's kind of well dressed up and timid, and you start to kind of deconstruct that from there. I thought that was an interesting starting point, but I like to think as the show progresses, the boxes in which we meet them in become a bit more blurred and a bit more complicated.

A (3:29)

Mm.

C (3:30)

I actually wanna play a clip that gives us a deeper lens into the two of them. So in this scene that I'm gonna play young Niall, who is played by Mitchell Robertson, and young Ruben, who is played by Stuart Campbell. They are together in the room that they share together. And by this point, they have earned each other's trust. Ruben has beat up Niall's bully. Niall has helped Reuben pass an exam he needs to stay in school. And he's also. Ruben has also brought a girl over to help Niall lose his virginity. And in this scene, they're lying on the bedroom floor talking about their mothers, who are a couple. And then Reuben and hands Niall a present. A boxing glove. Let's listen.

B (4:15)

Can I ask you something, Sheila? Are our mums, you know? Yeah, afraid so. Does it bother you or something? No. Well, not really. As long as they're happy, I guess. Although they don't seem all that happy. There's a lot you don't know about. Here. Got you something. I'm gonna train you. Just in case something happens to me. I need to know you'll look after yourself. Why do you care? We're family now. That's the most important thing. My brother from another lover. Hmm.

C (5:30)

Richard, that gift. A single boxing glove. Ruben is genuinely trying to give Niall something he thinks will help him. But what he is offering is kind of the only language he has, which is violence. A boxing glove. Tell me about that scene. What were you trying to do in that moment?

B (5:48)

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with this kind of offering. I think Ruben reacts to the world in violence. It's all he understands. It's his safety net against the kind of terrors of life and I think he knows fine well, due to his nature, that there might be a world where he's not always there. And so he wants to toughen Niall up and, you know, make sure he's there. I mean, family means everything to Reuben. You know, as the story unfolds, we'll understand why, but family means everything to him. So, you know, they're in this kind of very hybrid household, this kind of weirdly dysfunctional kind of way of coming together. And he wants Niall to not only learn to fend for himself, because I think at this point, he's genuinely really fond of Niall and loves him and sees him as family, but he also wants there to be a masculine presence within the family household when he goes. And so I think in a weird way, it is Ruben's love language giving him a pair of boxing gloves.

C (6:49)

Can you describe the characters of Niles and Ruben and how their relationship progresses?

B (6:56)

Nyles and Ruben, they form a kind of really close bond, like a really, you know, layered and complicated bond that they just can't shake. And no matter what happens in their life, no matter all the good and bad experiences they go through, they seem unable to shake having each other in their lives. I hope. I think as they move through lives and as they change and the characters go through all kinds of different changes throughout the series, one thing that they cannot escape is that feeling they had for each other when they were in their youth, which is this very confusing, very complicated love that they seem incapable of expressing. And the series kind of mutates through that and takes you through that feeling of can't live with someone, can't live without them, that forms the very basis of their relationship.

C (7:43)

The intimacy between Niall and Rubin is so charged, it almost reads to me as sexual. And I've been wondering, is that on me? Are we just so not used to seeing real intimacy between men that we automatically code it that way? You know what I'm saying? And I was wondering if you were thinking about that as you wrote them and how men can't show affection.

B (8:06)

I certainly. I always get worried about spelling things out too clearly, because I think I like all of my work to be open for interpretation, but I certainly want to there to be a charged, almost unexplainable energy between them. Like, I think there's feelings that they have for one another that they. They cannot express or even pin down in size of themselves. And I think that there is a there. They certainly work away on subliminals that even they aren't aware of. And I think that only grows during the course of the season. They are inextricably bound, and I think they have complicated feelings that are almost impossible to grapple down. You see it in a lot of men, you know, like, they're like. Sometimes, like, close male relationships can be so close, they sort of teeter in a boundaryless place. You know, even between alpha males, they're kind of the boundaryless. But there's. There's like a physical closeness that they need to have with one another.

C (9:03)

You wrote this, and you also star in it, and you. You put on something like 50 pounds of muscle to play the adult Rubin, is that right?

B (9:12)

I think it might have been more than £50. I work on the old kilograms. We're on a different system, aren't we? But, yeah, I was so skinny and baby Ranger and I lost a lot of weight. To be Donny Dunn and be thin and be frail in my body and feel that vulnerability was such a commitment. And then, you know, this was like the opposite way, just, like, ballooning up and ballooning up and. Yeah, I just really wanted it to be believable. I knew that people who had seen baby reindeer, you know, they had to go on a journey in buying that the guy in the comedy suit was the guy on the motorcycle in the leather jacket and the tank top. And I felt the only way people were gonna see me as a strutting example of bravado and masculinity would be to change kind of everything about myself or who they understood me to be. And so I knew I needed to physically transform. It was almost vital to the show.

C (9:58)

You know, you had me also thinking about maybe what's been intoxicating about the performance of masculinity for you.

B (10:08)

Well, I guess I never really formed it before I did Reuben, if that makes sense. But it was interesting just going around life kind of as a big person and just how people sort of treat you differently and all that kind of stuff. And, well, you just. They feel like people are kind of nervous or especially. I think it was like I gave off an intimidating vibe, even though I was just an actor with a beard and a mad haircut and a big sort of body. I always remember going down, I think at my biggest, I was on a flight, and I walked down, like, the middle aisle, and there were seats on the right and left. And I just remember people kind of just putting their heads down as I passed. I think people are attuned to think, oh, that's danger. You know, that guy looks a bit mad, and he's massive. And so I'm not going to provoke him. But I guess that was the visuals that I wanted from Ruben. So I guess in that respect it worked.

C (11:00)

You being recognized, it's a fairly new experience for you since Baby Reindeer. I mean it's was really almost like especially here in the States for you, an overnight thing.

B (11:13)

Yeah, it was crazy. I, I mean it's calmed down a lot. Either that or I've, I've got used to it. But I, I remember in the height of Baby Reindeer, it was, it was really quite something. I, I, I couldn't adjust to it. And even if nothing happened, you would wander around kind of like what's coming next and you know who's going to come up to me. And invariably you always hear, you know, people talking and whispering and that would always make me worried. I'm so used to this now, it doesn't bother me. But you know, Baby Reindeer was crazy. It came out On a Thursday, April 11, I think it was two years ago. And I think by Sunday it just felt like everyone in the world was stopping me, coming up to me, speaking to me, because there was hysteria around Baby Rainy. It was the zeitgeist. It was the hottest thing on the planet. It was crazy.

C (11:58)

Okay, Richard, I want to go back to 10 years ago on a stage in Scotland, your one man show called Monkey See, Monkey Do. And in the show you talk candidly about a very devastating thing that happened to you, that you were raped. And in this clip I'm going to play, you describe one of the three mistakes you made after this thing happened to you. And I just want to note that it's kind of a bit of comedy and a bit of seriousness all in one. Let's listen.

B (12:32)

Mistake number one. Wearing shorts and a T shirt. I mean, I was practically asking for it. Am I right, ladies? I'm joking. Mistake number one. Mistake number one. Tie me incident into this idea that I was no longer a man anymore. This idea that I'd been feminized. It's funny, out of all the things that bothered me, and trust me, there was a lot that bothered me, there was a lot that bothered me. The one thing that bothered me most, and it seems ridiculous in retrospect, the one thing that bothered me the most, the one thing that bothered my monkey the most, this idea that I was no longer a man. This idea that I'd been feminized. And six years on. What is masculinity? What does that really mean? Mean? It's just a word, just a box for People to put things in. It doesn't exist. And I let it bother me for six years. And if masculinity does exist, the masculinity is the problem with everything. It's the problem on my side in terms of not speaking out, but it's the problem the other side as well in terms of doing something like this in the first place. Lack of power in a man's head driving him towards primal sexual monkey dominance. Masculinity creates wars. Femininity doesn't create wars. What women do we know who created wars? Invaded other countries? Well, Thatcher in Argentina.

C (13:57)

Hmm. Richard, first off, I watched that clip with my brother and my cousins and they were all really moved about it. And it just started a conversation. And what I wanted to talk with you about is this idea of being a victim of sexual violence somehow disqualifying you from manhood. I think it's a common experience. I think it's a common experience to feel shame and to repress and not want to tell. And so I think it's pretty remarkable that not only did you speak about it, you spoke about it on stage. You wrote a one man show wrapped around it. I want to know that moment of you saying, the only way out of this for me is to talk about it. Because so many men and people in general will go to their grave with it because they don't want that on them. They don't want to be associated with maybe the worst thing that has happened to them.

B (14:54)

Yeah, it was. It was a case of kind of do or die almost. I know that sounds extreme, but it's the truth. I. I couldn't keep it in anymore. I was done thinking about it. I think I believed, maybe naively, that I could think my way out of it, that I could sort of land on a thought or a sense of clarity on it on my own. But I would just be synaptically firing the kind of doubts and thoughts around my head to the point where they actually got greater and greater and greater. And it just got to the point where I just felt like I was done. And I think I told my mom first, maybe one of my friends, and it was always painful. I always remember the adrenaline was kind of unbelievable. But then you would always feel like a weight had been lifted, you know, and. And then I suppose, meanwhile I was. I was going up to the Edinburgh fringe and all of this stuff, and I was. I was putting on wigs and wearing daft teeth and doing anti jokes and doing these kind of really madcap jokes that were wacky humor. But meanwhile, I was sort of dying inside, and it was just this juxtaposition. You almost can't write it. You almost. This is what Baby Reindeer's all about. The kind of sac clown thing. But it was like that to the extreme. It was. I was sort of, you know, I was going through all that, trying to come to terms with all that while simultaneously going on stage and trying to make people laugh in the most kind of wacky way.

C (16:24)

Yeah, I mean, I'm really sitting with this because in your case, you. Okay, here you are performing this pain night after night, and then you put it on screen for millions to see in Baby Reindeer. Has it really been healing to talk about this really bad thing that happened to you, not just once, but, like, over and over and over?

B (16:46)

Well, I think it's time to leave it behind now. You know, Baby Reindeer was kind of like. Well, there's nothing. I mean, it's. What was it, 82 countries in the world it was number one in. Or something like that. I think over, you know, 250 million people have watched it. I mean, talk about catharsis and coming to terms with something. I mean, it's so odd to look back at me, you know, all those years ago, over a decade ago, and sort of thinking, no one can know. No one can know. And now it's almost like, you know, 250 million people know. And it does lead to a sort of sense of acceptance.

C (17:17)

I watched Baby Reindeer three times. I really, really. I was really moved by it. And there's something very specific I was moved by. And I want to play a clip to kind of get to it. So in this clip, it's from the first episode of Baby Reindeer, and this is the very first time Donnie, which is a fictionalized version of yourself played by you, meets Martha, the woman who will go on to stalk you for years. And she walks into the pub where you work. She's overweight, she looks upset. And your character tries to be kind to her. You give her a cup of tea on the house. Let's listen.

B (17:55)

I felt sorry for her. That's the first feeling I felt. It's a patronizing, arrogant feeling, feeling sorry for someone you've only just laid eyes on. But I did. I felt sorry for her. Fiverr, please, mate.

D (18:12)

Okay.

B (18:13)

Thank you. Thanks. Can I get you something? No, thanks. Are you sure? Cup of tea? No, thanks. You have to buy something. I can't afford something. Right. Not even a cup of tea? No. All right, well, how about I give you a cup of Tea on the house. So what do you do? I'm a lawyer. How'd you get into that then? Trained in criminal law, moved to England, retrained, opened up my own practice, won several awards. Now a leading advisor to the government. You own a law firm? Amongst other things. A flat in Pimlico overlooking a private

C (18:54)

garden, one in Bexley Heath, two in Belsize Park.

B (18:56)

God doesn't like a bragger.

C (18:58)

But when you the go to for

B (18:59)

the biggest political minds in the game,

C (19:00)

you've earned a brag or two.

B (19:01)

No, no, I'm not going to say who, so don't even go there. Fine. David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Alex Hammond.

C (19:07)

But you didn't hear that from me.

B (19:10)

Wow, you must have amazing dinner parties. She had this incredible laugh, this giddy, slightly disconcerting laugh. Her name was Martha. But all I could think was if all of this is true, then why can't you afford a cup of tea?

C (19:33)

That's a clip from the first episode of the Netflix series Baby Reindeer, created by my guest today, Richard Gad. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air.

A (19:45)

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D (20:19)

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C (21:11)

the things that makes Baby Reindeer different from almost any other story about stocking that I have ever seen is that you don't let yourself off the hook as the victim of being stalked. So you write Donnie as someone who, on some level, was kind of flattered by this lady, by being seen, even by someone you knew was unwell. And I felt like that seems to be a very uncomfortable thing to admit publicly. So why was it important to you that you show that. That you hold both things at once, that you were a victim and that you were also someone who liked being wanted?

B (21:47)

Well, I just thought there was, like, a fundamental human truth to it. Like, I. I always try and dig into, like, the complicated stuff. Like, I think. I think in a lot of times, like on tv, it's. It's too obvious who the good guy and the bad person is, you know, and it's just like, life is not like that, I think. And I think that we're all made up of good qualities and bad qualities and mistakes and successes and all these kinds of things. And I just dug into it, and it kind of goes all the way back to the stage show. Because I remember, you know, when I was. I wrote the stage show, which later became the TV show, I would trial it, and the story went, you know, I offered this person a cup of tea and look at what happened. My one act of kindness. My God. And I remember just feeling like it wasn't coming to the fore, like it wasn't working. And I think it wasn't working because I was avoiding the truth. And the truth is that, you know, I egged it on and I indulged in it. And I indulged in it because I was, you know, going through a lot and. And I would take any attention wherever I got it, just because I. Anything that would take me out of the mire of what I was feeling and experiencing. And that, to me, was the heart of baby reindeer. And that was what I was avoiding when I was trying to workshop the live show into something that was worth watching, because I. I realized that I wasn't really writing the truth of what happened. And truth is the fundamental key to writing something, you know, authentic and interesting. But baby reindeer? You know, it was tough because it was like, you know, not many people would do that, especially in this day and age of kind of moral enlightenment and, oh, hey, look at all the mistakes I made. Like, it felt very daring and it felt very, like, vulnerable and exposing. But. But really, in a lot of ways, I think therein lay the success of Baby Ranger, because I think people recognize Something in that and in the flawed idea of human consistency. I think a lot of people struggle. One of Donny's big struggles was his inability to put up boundaries, like his inability to say no or inability to hurt someone's feelings. I think a lot of people relate to. I think a lot of people struggle to be honest. And it's not that they're good liars. It's that they struggle to not circumvent the pain of having honest conversations. And I think that's what Donny. Why I think the Donny character resonated so much. And I think people could just appreciate that honesty, you know, like, it was a radically honest show. And I think because of that, it was a success.

C (24:24)

Okay, Richard, I wanna go back to your childhood in Scotland. You have said one of your earliest memories is writing a book when you were about 5 years old. It's called Felix the Furball. Tell me about Felix.

B (24:40)

I can't remember if that's like the earliest memory like I have. I actually have an early memory of running up at my uncle and aunt's wedding, running up the aisle. I was at Page Boy and my mum be like, no, come back, come back. And I just bolted up the aisle because that's probably my earliest memory. I don't know how old I was then, but I remember very early memory of me kind of button bashing like mad at a computer. And yeah, writing Felix the Furball. I mean. I mean, it was about a fluff that got. A piece of fluff that got blown out the house and had to find its way back into the house. And that was genuinely. Every chapter was kind of the same and I just kind of wrote it obsessively. I almost think my writing style's never changed. It's kind of like just like smash, smash, smash. Like, you know, get out. Like, stream of consciousness.

C (25:22)

Your dad is a microbiologist. A professor.

B (25:25)

Yeah.

C (25:25)

Your mom worked in schools. It sounds like you had a very stable household, supportive parents. But the town you grew up in was really, really small. Tell me about being a K in warm it, Scotland. What did boys like you do all day?

B (25:39)

Well, you even know the name. It's funny because people, people even in Scotland haven't heard of Wormit.

C (25:44)

Oh, really? Okay.

B (25:45)

I remember. I remember going to Glasgow. Yeah, going to Glasgow and university. And they're like, where are you from? I said, wormit. They're like, where? And then I'm like, oh, well, it's next to a place called Newport. And they're like, where? And I'M like, well, it's next to a place called Tayport. And they're like, where? And I'm like, over the water from Dundee. And then that's when they go, ah, right. It's funny because even in la, if you say I'm over the water from Dundee, they're still like, where? So it's funny to hear Wormit with a US accent. It's funny. But, yeah, it was this tiny, tiny place. It was very picturesque, you know, overlooked the River Tay. Yeah, the rail bridge. I could see the rail bridge out my window, my bedroom window. But, you know, there wasn't much to do. Like I grew up and it was just the corner shop. Like that was all there was in the whole town. Loads of fields at the back, you know, and there was no, like bus links, really. There was a bus that would kind of take you to Dundee every now and again. But there was nothing like the other way. Like it was one of those kinds of places. So me and my friends just hunkered down. I had great friends. I hung out in A four with a guy, Dave Craig and Eamon. And we're still real tight to this day. And we just made the most of it, made each other laugh, you know, we would kick a football about a street, you know, a car would pass every like three hours. It was just. It was beautiful, but it was. It was really quaint. And I don't think I realized how small it was until I kind of left. I mean, I remember. How old were you when you left Glasgow? Yeah, I left for university. I must have been 18, I think. And I. I remember Glasgow felt so big to me, like, so big. And now it's funny because I've lived in London and been to la, been all around the world and I went back to Glasgow to film Half man and it suddenly felt so small to me compared to everything. But I remember when I moved to Glasgow, I couldn't get over the size of it. It made me anxious because I was so used to such a sort of small town existence, I suppose.

C (27:35)

Yeah. Did you watch television when you were growing up?

B (27:39)

Me and my friends would watch it obsessively, you know, listen to music obsessively. But. But I mean, you know, television was my ultimate outlet. And, you know, what were you watching? We'd do all the sitcoms. Oh, all the sitcoms was everything, you know, everything. It was the golden age of DVD was when I grew up, you know, where the way of consuming things was dvd and. And it was just, you know, for Christmas, what you get a DVD and it was beautiful. But you know, everything from the UK office to peep show black, you know, I go back, I watch 40 Towers, Blackadder. I go back and I, you know, everything was consumed and that's where I developed my love for comedy and everything like that and everything we Arrested Development, I remember, you know, we on the US Side, we watched the Wire, Sopranos, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and I just consumed television like from an early age. Just loved it, adored it.

C (28:38)

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emmy winning actor, writer and comedian Richard Gad. His new HBO series Half man, which he wrote and stars in, is the story of two boys who become brothers when their mothers fall in love and follows their bond in 1980s Glasgow, Scotland into the present day. Gad is also the creator of the 2024 Netflix phenomenon, Baby Reindeer. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air.

D (29:07)

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C (30:27)

When did you decide? I think I want to do this thing. I think I want to get on stage and try comedy.

B (30:34)

I must have been about 20, I think, and I went to my student union comedy night that was on and I remember just being in the crowd and kind of being full of admiration. I guess a feeling of Sort of wanting to feel what that must be like to make people laugh on mass like that. I just remember thinking, whoa, that must be a thrill. Like it must be a thrill. And it is when it goes well, I think that comedy night, I look back because if I remember correctly, it might have been a freshers week or something like that. So I think there was probably quite a lot of people were really kind of up for it, which isn't the same as a lot of comedy nights and people. There was a lot of drunk and vivaciousness. And I think every comedian that was on that night absolutely smashed the roof off the place. And I think it gave me a slight false impression that that is the way all gigs run. That it's kind of like. It's almost like a bulletproof thing once the atmosphere is so set up. And I remember I. But I was like, I got to give this a shot. And I, I went to the promoter and I said, look, do you take students? Because they were all professional comedians coming to do a comedy night. And I said, do you take students? Like. And he, and he said he'd give me five minutes like in a couple of weeks time. And I said okay, I'll take it. And then I was just nervous, nervous, nervous like three weeks. But I just worked up some sort of five minute set. If I remember correctly. I packed my mates in the place a bit. And I remember my first gig went really well and it gave me an idea of, oh, it is like this, it is like this. And I think it was my second to a thousandth gig that went badly when I was figuring out how to do it without my friends in the room. Yeah, but that's how I got into it.

C (32:17)

When you first started performing, people did not really get you. I mean it was kind of off the wall. It was a little bit, you know, and you couldn't figure out why. Like give us an example of something that you were performing out there when you first got started. That people were like, what?

B (32:34)

Well, I mean, I could take you on the whole journey. It's kind of. I like talking about it in a way. Cause when I first started standup, I tried to do the man microphone thing, you know, where you're like, hey, let me tell you a story. And I found an old video of me doing it the other day and I was talking about a dog. Now I've never had a dog, but I was talking about owning a dog. Cause I must have thought, well, this material about owning a dog, you didn't even own a Dog, Right, okay. No, no. Which shows the kind of why it was probably never worked. And it really came from a place of authenticity. But I, I did a routine about a dog and I was just like, what, what am I talking about? I think the dog was called Keith. And I think that was the whole joke that the dog was called Keith. But, but I, but, but I, I looked at it and I was like, oh, you can. I can tell that I'm not honoring my voice or my. What I find funny in a lot of ways. But I remember having a kind of watershed moment when I'd be, You know, because when you're doing comedy and you're going around you. You often see comics at the back of a comedy club and they kind of stand and they watch the acts. And that was what I used to always do. I'd always watch and just try and study all the acts and figure out where I was going wrong, what they were doing. Right. But I often found that I would laugh at the stuff between the jokes and the stuff that didn't land. Like, I would always find it quite funny if a comedian made it sounds mean spirited, but it wasn't. But, but if a comedian made a joke and didn't get it together, laugh. They went, okay, moving on. I would, I would just burst out laughing. And I realized that I would. What I found funny was stuff that kind of didn't land and our humor that kind of wasn't funny in a way. Like I. And I realized, well, why don't I do that? Like, why don't I, Why don't I just do jokes that kind of aren't funny and then do a really awkward. Be a really awkward comedian that does bad jokes and has a kind of almost a bit of a breakdown on stage and kind of is really nervous and anxious and make my. That humor sweet spot my act. And I did it. And there is a large portion of society that really, really go for that alternative stuff. And so there would be gigs that I go to and they would be great, but there would be like some crowds. I remember Friday and Saturdays were really tough where you would hear a pin drop. I mean, I've had some deaths that people, Comedians still talk to me about to this day, like that they've never seen people die as bad as me. I remember I was in Edinburgh stand, and I remember there's this thing where, like, you fill your time. It's like comedy law. If you're booked for 20 minutes, no matter how good the gig's going, you play 20 minutes. And I remember going out and I think I remember, wow, that didn't land. That didn't land. That didn't land. That didn't land. And I was racing through and I looked at my watch and I was almost done with my set because I was clearly not landing. I was just racing through it and I had about 17 minutes to go and you could have heard a pin drop. And I just remember like once a crowd sucks up an atmosphere of tension and oh my God, this is awkward and uncomfortable. No matter what you do, sometimes you cannot get it out.

C (35:31)

It sounds like, okay, I mean, in a way, when it goes bad, it's almost like a humiliation ritual. But you continue to do it. Like you continue to put yourself up there and out there and expose yourself. So that intoxicating feeling of having a control of the room must be really intoxicating. Can you describe it?

B (35:53)

Well, I mean, humiliating ritual is funny. I've never heard it put like that before, but it can feel like that. It can feel very self damning, you know, when it's not going well. You know, the amount of long drives I've had home is crazy. You know, just being like, wow, my God, like the feeling of a bad gig. I said it to people, like, there's nothing like the feeling of a bad gig. It's like its own specific feeling. It's hard to describe. It's like a humiliation tinged with sort of existential doubt. It feels like, you know, we've all experienced like embarrassment or whatever in our life, but it's a very specific feeling about gig. You know, like the adrenaline of holding an audience in your hands and sometimes like it. You know, we all work on subliminals and all that kind of stuff. And sometimes like comedy, it can be kind of transcendental in a way. Like sometimes you feel like you just plug in in a weird way, like a jigsaw piece and the audience plugged back into you. And you sometimes feel like, almost like moving your eyebrow makes them laugh. And you just suddenly go into this almost like suspended place where you're almost completely in the moment and you just feel like you're completely in tune with the audience. And there's times when I've gone off stage and I've like cried, you know, like, because the adrenaline and the euphoria was so great to experience that, that my body was just like, oh my God, like shaking to the point of crying. It's kind of incredible.

C (37:10)

It sounds like those experiences for you were worth all of the bad gigs. Is that what kept you going?

B (37:19)

Yeah, I'm super proud of comedy. Comedy's given me so much like comedy's it's a great training for life. Like it really is. You know, you have to think in the moment as a comedian so much because you have to be able to adapt all the time to what people want. And sometimes you give them something and they're like, well, we don't want this. And you're like, Well, I got 20 minutes to go. I better adapt. I remember the other day I was at Cannes, wonderful festival, Cannes series. And, you know, in front of 2,500 people, I got asked the question about what advice I'd give to people, artists out there. And I just spoke from the heart, launched into something that I think the audience took away as hope and powerful. I hope. But I remember thinking, thank God for comedy because in a live space like that, it allows you to think in the moment, to almost have a way of tapping into a sort of psychological space where you can sort of think very clearly and react in a moment. And I think it gives you what it gives you most of all is an ability to think quickly on your feet. And I think that's such a life skill in a way.

C (38:23)

Well, Richard Gad, it has been a pleasure to talk with you and thank you so much.

B (38:29)

No, thank you. I really enjoyed that. I really appreciate the great questions. Thank you.

C (38:33)

Emmy winning actor, writer and comedian Richard Gad. His new HBO Limited series is called Half Man. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan recommends three ideal spring reads. This is FRESH AIR.

A (38:47)

This message comes from donors choose every day on donorschoose.org, teachers ask for the books, supplies and learning materials their students need. Because every day teachers show up for their students. But who's going to show up for teachers? Because appreciation shouldn't stop at thank you. It means taking action. Books for the classroom, supplies for students. Support. Teachers can count on show classroom heroes the appreciation they deserve. Donate today@donorschoose.org local this message comes from Angie.

D (39:21)

Tackling a home project, Angie can connect you with pros who do such a good job you might ask them to be your kid's godfather. Don't do that. Just trust them to get the job done. Find a pro for your projects@angie.com that's a n g I dot com. This message comes from Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that helps you spend smarter and move faster. With Brex, you get corporate cards with built in expense management plus a team of AI agents that handle manual finance tasks learn more@brex.com our book critic Maureen

C (39:58)

Corrigan recommends what she calls three ideal spring reads novels that are light, breezy and funny with an undercurrent of chilly reality.

E (40:08)

Sometimes girls just want to have fun, right? But I've been in a springtime mood of wanting to dive into a cartoon colored ball pit of comic novels with spunky heroines, and I found some good ones. But what I also found is that much like the classic screwball comedies of yore, escapism in these playful novels links arms with edgy social commentary. Yesteryear, an intricately plotted debut novel by Carol Clare Burke, has been getting lots of attention, and deservedly so. The main character here is an online trad wife named Natalie Heller Mills. On camera, Natalie revels in activities like spending four hours making a loaf of sourdough bread and then adorning it with a nativity scene made out of herbal stick figures from her own garden. Naturally, a little of this goes a long way for those of us who share the attitude of the late Joan Rivers. Rivers famously quipped, I hate housework. You make the beds, you do the dishes, and six months later you have to start all over again. Amen. So imagine my glee when Natalie, who only plays at being a pioneer woman, wakes up one morning to the realization that she's been transported back to the year 1855. Welcome to the real pioneer life, where if you want milk for your morning gruel, you'd better hustle out to the barn and find a cow. If Burke had only stuck to this plot line, yesteryear would be a fun one note snark at retro lifestyle influencers. But instead it tells a more ambitious, suspenseful and yes, ultimately melancholy story of its heroine's aspirations and capitulations to ideas of how women should live their lives. I thought Gary Steingart's brilliant 2024 essay in the Atlantic about his agonizing seven nights aboard the Icon of the Seas, the largest cruise ship in the world, had ruined me for all other tales of enforced frivolity on the ocean. But I was wrong. Emma Straub's latest novel, American Fantasy, starts off sharing Steingart's cynicism and ends up affirming the right of women, especially middle aged women, to party without self consciousness or apology. Our main character here is a 50 year old divorced woman named Annie who's been persuaded by her younger sister to join her on a four day themed cruise. The theme is on board, namely a gone soft round the middle boy band of the 90s named Boy Talk that both Annie and her sister loved. Almost every other passenger aboard is a woman of a certain age, otherwise diverse in race, politics, ability, income bracket and even sexual orientation. All were rabid Boy Talk fans. The crew's production manager, a gay woman named Sarah, reflects that these were the guys who had launched a million sexual awakenings, and even if they had awakened something other than heterosexuality, they had still been present, like distant guardian angels of puberty. Straub tells the story of the Cruz through the eyes of Sarah, Annie and one of the band members, a thoughtful guy named Keith, who, like Annie, is at a crossroads. This is a novel that makes the radical move of honoring rather than ridiculing female fandom. Here's Straub's description of Annie's epiphany about her own fandom as she's standing in a packed crowd during a Boy Talk performance. The music was a direct vein to her own childhood, the least complicated part of her life. All around Annie, women were dancing and singing, and for a second she closed her eyes and thought, no one else will ever understand this. Except, of course, everyone standing beside her, who all understood it perfectly. I've shared the premise of Laurie Frankel's forthcoming novel Enormous Wings with a few friends, based on how instantly they entered the book's title into their cell phones. The premise is all you need to know about this wild but all too timely story about female autonomy, or lack thereof. So here goes. Frankel's heroine, Pepper Mills, is 77 and a reluctant new resident of the Vista View retirement community in Austin, Texas. Surprisingly, she meets a nice man there and has sex. And then, through a medical fluke that Frankel almost makes plausible, Pepper finds herself pregnant. Her doctors expect the pregnancy to end in miscarriage. When it doesn't, Pepper seeks an abortion. But she lives in Texas, and she's now such a media sensation that it's almost impossible for her to leave the state. Complicated, gutsy and entertaining, Enormous Wings pokes fun at life's unpredictability and stokes anger at situations that aren't at all funny.

C (46:13)

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Yesteryear, American Fantasy and Enormous Wings. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with help today from Connor Anderson at WDET in Detroit. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annemarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital Media product producer is Molly CV Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley.

A (47:08)

This message comes from DonorsChoose. Every day on DonorsChoose.org teachers ask for the books, supplies and learning materials their students need. Show classroom heroes the appreciation they deserve. Donate today@donorschoose.org local this message comes from

D (47:26)

Angie Tackling a Home project Angie can connect you with pros who do such a good job you might ask them to be your kid's godfather. Don't do that. Just trust them to get the job done. Find a pro for your projects@angie.com that's a n g I.com this message comes from Brex. BREX is the intelligent finance platform that helps you spend smarter and move faster. With Brex, you get corporate cards with built in expense management plus a team of AI agents that handle manual finance tasks. Learn more at brex.

B (48:00)

Com.