Stephen Colbert / Remembering MA Rep. Barney Frank

Summary

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Fresh Air — Stephen Colbert / Remembering MA Rep. Barney Frank

Date: May 23, 2026
Host: Terry Gross, with David Bianculli
Guests: Stephen Colbert; archival interview with Barney Frank

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air marks Stephen Colbert's farewell to CBS's "The Late Show" after an impressive 11-year run. TV critic David Bianculli and Terry Gross reflect on Colbert's unique comedy career, moving from sharp satire to genuine late-night host. The bulk of the episode revisits a deep, candid 2016 interview between Colbert and Gross, offering rare insights into Colbert's approach to satire, character, and authenticity. Later in the program, another archival conversation honors the late Barney Frank, Massachusetts congressman and pioneering figure in LGBTQ+ and financial regulation history.

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Part 1: Stephen Colbert’s Comedy Journey and Farewell (00:16–31:36)

Career Retrospective / Early Days (00:16–05:21)

• Narration by David Bianculli:

  • Traces Colbert’s career from improv in Chicago, working as Steve Carell’s understudy, to co-creating the Ambiguously Gay Duo on "The Dana Carvey Show" (picked up by SNL).

  • Significant move to "The Daily Show"—evolution from Craig Kilborn’s host era to Jon Stewart’s more political focus.

  • Emergence of the satirical “Stephen Colbert” persona, lampooning conservative punditry.

    “But Stephen, you're probably being recorded as saying, doesn't all this government spying on its citizens mean losing our basic freedoms? Of course not. It means gaining limits on those freedoms, something Uncle Sam likes to call freedom.”
    — Stephen Colbert (02:00)

• Creation and success of The Colbert Report (2005–2014), eventual pivot to "The Late Show" as himself.

• Reference to his memorable live 2016 Showtime election special, and his real-time reaction as results rolled in:

  “I think we can agree that this has been an absolutely exhausting, bruising election for everyone. And it has come to an ending that I did not imagine.”
  — Stephen Colbert (03:35)

The Transition Interview: Dropping the Mask (06:09–31:36)

Switching from Character to Authentic Host

• Colbert discusses his process of moving beyond satirical punditry and finding his voice as “himself.”

• Motivation for ending The Colbert Report: burnout from maintaining a not-so-respected model of punditry (Bill O’Reilly and others), feeling it was too limiting, risky to continue:

  “The sense of certainty regardless of the facts, that was embodied in the idea of truthiness...how you feel is more important than what the facts are.”
  — Stephen Colbert (12:26)

  “I felt my discipline slipping...if I didn't maintain that discipline...I would simply slide into being, like, the thing that I was mocking.”
  — Stephen Colbert (15:22)

Late Show: Discovering the Real Colbert

• Wasn’t an ambition—Late Show offer was unexpected.

• Initially overcorrected, unsure how much of himself to reveal.

• Learning that honest, topical, political satire could be done as himself, not just in character:

  “Through the character, I was actually speaking very honestly and you were hearing my voice a lot of the time… there's a confessional aspect to wearing a mask.”
  — Stephen Colbert (20:11)

• Importance of enjoying the performance, relaxing into the role, letting the audience’s presence unlock his comfort. Notably extended the opening monologues as his comfort grew.

  “You've got to sincerely enjoy what you're doing, or else the audience, I think, can sniff it.”
  — Stephen Colbert (22:34)

• On audience laughter:

  “You lean into it like it's a wind. It's the greatest feeling in the world...You smile and you're happy that they're happy.” —Stephen Colbert (23:47)
  “The biggest challenge is: where do you jump back in to get to the next joke?...Comedy is about rhythm.”
  — Stephen Colbert (24:05)

Backstage, Presence, and Interviewing

• On abandoning the high-energy kick-dance with Jon Batiste for more presence-based entrances:

  “You actually don't need high energy to fill a large space. You need your own sense of presence and focus.”
  — Stephen Colbert (25:38)

• Switch from ‘winning’ interviews as the character to listening more as himself; the satisfaction and learning curve of genuine conversations.

Memorable Quotes

• On work stress and teamwork:

  “You gotta like the stress...to do one of these jobs, you gotta kinda learn to love the flaming toboggan ride of it.”
  — Stephen Colbert (30:13)

• On learning through exhaustion:

  “There's a great gift of exhaustion that comes on you from doing a show like this...you actually lose all those second thoughts, and then you're allowed to sort of be yourself with your guests.”
  — Stephen Colbert (28:57)

Closing Gratitude

• Colbert expresses deep regard for the platform and the conversation with Terry Gross:

  “It is a pleasure talking to you, Terry, because when I found out I'd be talking to you again, I thought, oh, I'm talking to Terry. Maybe the show means something.”
  — Stephen Colbert (31:23)

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Part 2: Remembering Barney Frank (32:46–40:26)

Barney Frank’s Legacy

• David Bianculli's Intro:
  • Barney Frank remembered as a witty, fiercely intelligent, openly gay legislator, and key architect of Dodd-Frank financial reforms.

Archival Interview Highlights (34:07–40:18)

Early Days of Gay Rights Advocacy

• Frank details lobbying for gay rights in the 1970s and ‘80s, facing unfiltered bigotry:

  “People would be very open and say, ‘Hey, pal, are you kidding? I'm not gonna have some in my store.’ So, yeah, it was unrestrained.”
  — Barney Frank (34:07)

• Early Congressional struggles against sodomy laws:

  “...these people are disgusting. Are you kidding, pal? What they do, oh, that turns my stomach. I can't allow that to happen.”
  — Barney Frank (34:30)

• Strategic focus on practical, non-moral arguments for civil rights:

  “Nobody's asking you to say this is moral...the only question is don't prevent other people, it doesn't hurt you.”
  — Barney Frank (35:14)

Defense of Marriage Act & Marriage Equality

• Evolution from overt bigotry to coded arguments against same-sex marriage, with Barney Frank challenging their logic:

  “How does the fact that I love another man hurt your marriage?...I'll yield to any member of the House who wants to explain to me how what I would do would hurt your marriage.”
  — Barney Frank (38:37)

• On quick wit:

  “Some of them, the best humor is offered up to you by the stupidity of your opponents.”
  — Barney Frank (38:59)

Embracing Identity

• About his accent and clothing:

  “You become kind of...there is a certain blandness politicians have that does not work to your favor. So if you can be somewhat distinctive in ways that are not offensive, I think that's helpful.”
  — Barney Frank (39:11)

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Part 3: Review of Apple TV's Widow's Bay (41:42–48:11)

Critic John Powers reviews the horror-comedy series Widow’s Bay, praising its blend of retro horror, deadpan humor, and character-driven suspense.
Quotes and references include:

“Juggling laughter and fright is the strategy of Widow’s Bay...like a Stranger Things intended for grownups.”
— John Powers (42:11)

“What makes it so terrifying is that you think you're safely watching a dumb comedy, then boo, you're actually in a horror movie.”
— John Powers (42:05)

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Colbert, on finding his voice:

  “Life is like learning to play the violin in public. You don't know what you're doing until you do it.” (18:54)

• Colbert, on lasting teamwork:

  “You gotta just love missing all those trees that you could have hit today.” (31:16)

• Barney Frank, on winning rights:

  “If it has no negative impact on anybody else, it's simply what these two people are doing, please don't mistreat them because of it.” (35:14)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:16 – Bianculli’s Colbert retrospective
• 05:21 – Start of 2016 Colbert-Gross interview
• 12:26 – Colbert on ending "The Colbert Report"
• 18:54 – Colbert on discovering his authentic voice
• 24:05 – Colbert on the rhythm of comedy and audience laughter
• 25:38 – Colbert on performing for the room, not just TV cameras
• 32:46 – Bianculli intro: Remembering Barney Frank
• 34:07 – Frank on early gay rights advocacy
• 38:37 – Frank’s Defense of Marriage Act debate retort
• 41:42 – John Powers reviews "Widow's Bay"

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Conclusion

This memorable Fresh Air episode richly explores the evolution of comedic and political voice via Stephen Colbert’s transformative career and Barney Frank’s groundbreaking advocacy. The candid, thoughtful interviews—punctuated by wit, wisdom, and warmth—offer vital context for understanding public discourse, authenticity, and societal change.

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Transcript

[Stephen Colbert]

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[Barney Frank]

up from your door.

[Stephen Colbert]

Sell your car [e-mail] pickup fees may apply.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Biancooli. Last night, Stephen Colbert said goodbye to his CBS series the Late Show, a show he's hosted since 2015 and which will not continue without him. But in getting to that job, Stephen Colbert has compiled a fairly unusual career path as both a writer and performer of comedy. Stephen Colbert loved both from the start, especially comic improv. He started out as Steve Carell's understudy for the touring company of Chicago's Second City and teamed with him on some of his early short lived TV work, most infamously on ABC's the Dana Carvey show in 1996. That outrageous comedy series included animated shorts starring a pair of superheroes called the Ambiguously Gay Duo. Colbert co wrote those cartoons and provided the voice of Ace, one of the costumed crime fighters. The voice of his sidekick Gary was provided by Steve Carell. After the Dana Carvey show was canceled, the Ambiguously Gay Duo was picked up by Saturday Night Live.

[Stephen Colbert]

Look both ways before crossing the street and always hold hands with your Budd. The buddy system should be used in all potentially unsafe situations like swimming, bike riding and showering.

[David Biancolli]

Colbert joined Comedy Central's the Daily show in 1997 when it was hosted by Craig Kilborn. But Colbert, like the show, really blossomed when Jon Stewart became host in 1999 and made the show more political. Colbert played himself, but in the guise of a conservative correspondent, improvising in character from a right wing point of view.

[Stephen Colbert]

But Stephen, you're probably being recorded as saying, doesn't all this government spying on its citizens mean losing our basic freedoms? Of course not. It means gaining limits on those freedoms, something Uncle Sam likes to call freedom.

[David Biancolli]

Plus, as that character also named Stephen Colbert, he reported for Comedy Central from national political conventions in 2000 and 2004 and eventually got his own spin off series, the Colbert Rapport, which ran from 2005 to 2014. In the last year of that series, a campaign was launched to get Colbert thrown off the air, which he discussed on his own show, as always in character.

[Stephen Colbert]

But folks, I'm not gonna lie, this was close. We almost lost me. I'm never gonna take me for granted ever again.

[David Biancolli]

But Colbert persevered and found an even more powerful platform. In 2015. He was selected for the late show job. When Letterman retired and dropped his conservative Persona to host this CBS network show as himself. The next year in 2016, he hosted a live election night cable special on Showtime. Subtitled Democracy's Series Finale. It was planned and written with the expectation that Hillary Clinton would defeat Donald Trump in the national election. But as the evening wore on, even though the race had yet to be called, Colbert reacted in real time to the surprising voting trends.

[Stephen Colbert]

I think we can agree that this has been an absolutely exhausting, bruising election for everyone. And it has come to an ending that I did not imagine. We all now feel the way Rudy Giuliani looks seeing this election. Seeing, seeing this election, you know, people all around the world. I mean, she's going off to Portugal, everybody saying, has America lost its mind? And the answer is evidently, back off, buddy. We got 300 million guns. And we're kind of stressed right now. By every metric. I mean, we are more divided than ever as a Nation.

[David Biancolli]

After 11 years as host, Stephen Colbert closed shop on the Late show this week. Cleverly and memorably. On Wednesday's show, for example, he finally answered his own Colbert questionnaire with different celebrities coming on stage to pose each question. Even when finally shining the spotlight on himself, he found a way to include and engage others. And Bruce Springsteen closed that night's show by singing Streets of Minneapolis, using his voice and protesting to the end, just as Stephen Colbert has. Terry Gross has interviewed and been interviewed by Stephen Colbert several times over the years to honor his reign on the Late Show. We're revisiting their conversation from November 2016, which took place just before his Live Showtime special. At that time, he had been hosting the Late show for about a year. They began with an excerpt of the opening monologue from the night before.

[Stephen Colbert]

And it's been a very good week for Donald Trump. His poll numbers are up. Hillary's email scandal is relevant again. And he just got his second newspaper endorsement. Is it the Journal? Is it the Post? No, it's the Crusader, the political voice of white Christian America. Yes, Donald Trump has been endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan newspaper. We finally answer the question, what's white and white and white all over? And I don't know about you, I don't know about you, but when I first heard this, I was like, what took you so long? Was the Klan on the fence? I don't know. Maybe Jill Stein, maybe Jefferson Davis. Not sure who we're going to endorse this time.

[Terry Gross]

Stephen Colbert. Welcome back to FRESH air. And congratulations on your new show. Not so new. But it's the first time I've spoken to you since you've been doing late night.

[Stephen Colbert]

Thanks for having me back. I'm really happy to talk to you.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, well, I'm thrilled. So I want to play another clip from the Late Show. This is from October 28th. And this was after Megyn Kelly and Newt Gingrich had the big dust up on her show because he accused her of being fascinated with sex and not caring about public policy after she had asked about allegations of Donald Trumps sexual predatory behavior. And she responded by saying that she's fascinated by the protection of women. So again, this is about him accusing her of not caring about public policy. And here's what you had to say.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, the thing is, Megyn Kelly file isn't talking about fun time, bedroom, whoopee making. She's talking about assault. Oh, wait. Unless Newt doesn't know the difference. Maybe no one gave him the talk. Hold on. Let's do this. Newt, sweetheart, you're growing up so fast. In fact, you're 73. Your body's changing. You've probably noticed some strange new hair growing on your earlobes. Perfectly natural. You're old enough to finally learn about the birds and the bees and the consent. You see, when a man has special feelings for a woman and he wants to give her a special hug, he asks her a special you up? But grabbing a lady because you're a TV star is not sex. It's assault. And fun fact, assault is a matter of public policy. Cause it's illegal, even if you use tic tacs. I hope that clears things up, buddy. I would explain to you what sex is, but then I'd have to picture you doing it.

[Terry Gross]

Stephen Colbert. That's really like hilarious. Can you take us a little bit through the process of coming up with that sketch?

[Stephen Colbert]

In the morning pitch meeting, someone said, did you hear what Newt did last night? And I said, no, what was it? And they told me what he did. And I went, oh, my gosh, what an interesting emotional moment for him and for her. And you saw Megyn Kelly in the video. You see Megyn Kelly sort of really throw up her armor and go, all right, well, this is how you're going to behave. It turned from what could have been an interview with ease to one where she was deeply armored and shot a barb at him about I'll let you deal with your. I'll let you go so you can deal with your anger issues. And. And it became an emotional moment rather than an informational moment. And I really, that was very interesting to me.

[Terry Gross]

So in addition to trying to be funny and entertain your audience, do you feel like you're also trying to make an argument with your comedy that look, look at this election, look at how important it is. Here's how I feel about the candidates.

[Stephen Colbert]

I don't think I've been subtle about how I feel about Donald Trump. So it's less of an argument and more of a look, look at the flaming carcass shambling toward us. And we should probably not touch that thing. You know, look, it's rabid. Don't touch it. But that's not the same thing as making an argument against him or for Hillary Clinton, because I don't think we've made an argument for Hillary Clinton. I think people's hesitancy about Hillary Clinton is completely reasonable. We just happen to be in extraordinary circumstances.

[David Biancolli]

Stephen Colbert speaking to Terry Gross in 2016. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

[NPR Announcer]

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[Stephen Colbert]

I'm excited about this film. I just know suspense, intrigue, aliens. And I'm like, all right, Spielberg, I'm in.

[NPR Announcer]

Check out the summer guide from Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

Let's get Back to Terry's 2016 interview with Stephen Colbert, who just ended his reign as host of his long running late night CBS talk show. This interview took place the year after he had transitioned from the Colbert Report to the Late show with Stephen Colbert. And Terry asked him when he realized it was time to end the Colbert Report.

[Stephen Colbert]

I didn't really want to model the behavior of punditry anymore, because I thought it was a limiting on a certain level, that I wanted to be able to do more than that character. And I also didn't. I guess the word would be. I didn't respect my model anymore. And I. And I.

[Terry Gross]

Wait, wait, what do you mean by that?

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, you know, people always said it was Bill, but it's punditry in general, the sense of certainty regardless of the facts, that was embodied in the idea of truthiness. That was the thesis statement for the entire show, that how you feel is more important than what the facts are, and that the truth that you feel is correct is more important than anything that the facts could support, which we expressed in a very concise way on the show. We embodied it satirically, though it's not really a new idea. And as you can see, it's been amplified in interesting ways since we went off the air. But I didn't just want to play the game anymore. That was a single thesis statement that we tried to remind ourselves of every day. I would. When in doubt, I would just sort of recite those mantras to myself about what is truthiness? And I'm looking out for you. And because I'm looking out for you, I'm also looking over your shoulder because I've got your back. And I have a special relationship with the audience that is. And it's only us. We're the only ones who get it. And if you agree with me, I love you, and please love you, because I agree with you. And all those emotional ideas, I'd have to remind myself every day to stay in character, and I'd remind myself of them right before I went on stage every night, because I thought, well, you've come this far. Why blow it now? And toward the end of the show, I started to think that my love of that game was diminishing to the point that I might actually blow the entire. I might actually drop the entire China set one day because I just couldn't take playing that character anymore.

[Terry Gross]

Like, accidentally drop it?

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah, I guess so. You know, I began to feel like I was stumbling downhill with an armful of bottles and that I couldn't actually keep up the discipline because it took discipline to remind myself every day to be the character. Don't be yourself. And I began to wonder, well, what would it be like to be me? And so I decided a couple years before the show ended that I was gonna end the show. And it was not because I didn't like it anymore. I still liked it, but I just thought Like, I'm not sure if I can actually keep this up without hurting someone.

[Terry Gross]

Hurting someone?

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What do you mean?

[Stephen Colbert]

I don't know. It's a feeling. I thought maybe I would make some big mistake with the character because he says he would say terrible things, and I got away with some of the terrible things he would say or do because it was all filtered through his mask. But if I didn't maintain the mask, it would just be me being terrible, and he would say hateful things or hurtful things. And I thought, well, if I don't play this tightly, if I don't hit the bell just right all the time. Not that it was a perfect performance, but what I mean is, if I didn't maintain this discipline, and I felt my discipline slipping, if I didn't maintain that discipline, that I would simply slide into being, like, the thing that I was mocking.

[Terry Gross]

At what point did you know that you would be hosting the Late Show? Like you'd made the decision to stop the Colbert Report before you knew?

[Stephen Colbert]

I fell out of the sky. It was absolutely no part of my plans. When I decided to end the Colbert Report, that happened literally years later. It was a complete surprise to me. It hadn't been an ambition of mine, and I'd just been an enormous fan of Dave, and so I had great respect for what he had built. But when they called and said, okay, how about you? I was shocked.

[Terry Gross]

So in that period when you knew you were ending the Colbert Report and you didn't know what you were going to do next.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What were you thinking about your future?

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, I don't know. Go be an actor, I guess.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah. Because I'm an actor.

[Terry Gross]

Mm.

[Stephen Colbert]

And that's how I started, and that's what I was doing for 10 years. I was acting.

[Terry Gross]

Right, Right. But. But. So when you were offered Late Night, did you think.

[John Powers]

Hmm.

[Terry Gross]

But I really wanted to act. I don't know if I want to be doing this.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, yeah, I mean, you have to give that some thought. But. But I also knew that if someone wants to hire me or if I can get my own production company together or create my own project, you can act anytime you want. This opportunity will never come again. And I love a live audience, and I love the grind of every day, and I love the people I work with, and it gave me all the things that I loved, and that was not a hard decision. Once I looked at that, I could leave the thing that I didn't want to do anymore and still keep all the aspects of it that Gave me deep satisfaction every day. I mean, the release, the privilege it is to do a show about what just happened in the last 24 hours or the last hour or the last half hour, given the speed of the news cycle right now, in front of. Of a live studio audience, which feels so happy to be there with people that you love working with, who are all pulling on the same rope is a drug. And as hard as it is, I get that great release at the end of the day. To be in front of the audience and to know that I can continue that with my friends was the greatest draw. And I also couldn't think of anything after the Colbert Report that would seem like a promotion other than taking over for Dave. And so I said what a fool I would be to not to accept this incredible opportunity, because I can act till the day I die if I want to, But I can only do this now.

[Terry Gross]

When you started doing the Late show, as opposed to the Colbert Report, and you were able to drop the Colbert Report Persona, did you know what your authentic voice was going to be? You know what your voice is like, the actual Stephen Colbert was going to be? Because you still have to have, like, a bit of a Persona as an entertainer on stage.

[Stephen Colbert]

I don't think so. I knew that it would be a little bit of a public discovery. You know, what's. It's somebody else's joke. But life is like learning to play the violin in public. You don't know what you're doing until you do it. And I knew that there'd be a learning curve that had to happen in public. On air, I would say that what I didn't anticipate was how much I would overcorrect for not doing the character.

[Terry Gross]

What do you mean?

[Stephen Colbert]

I think. Well, because I was not talking about politics. I wasn't doing a monologue on the day's events. When we first started, I mean, I would still talk about what was happening, but it wasn't highly focused. It did not have intention. And I wasn't speaking all that honestly because I was attempting to do something different than I had done before. And the overcorrect, I would say, is that not realizing that through the character, I was actually speaking very honestly and you were hearing my voice a lot of the time. You know,

[Terry Gross]

I felt that way as a viewer.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah, there's a confessional aspect to wearing a mask. You know, the same reason why it's easier to confess behind a screen to a priest than face to face. And so by the character was a ten year Confession, perhaps, of indulging ego and appetite through the person of this character. Then you go on stage as yourself, and you're responsible for everything you say. And there's a natural. I think there's a natural inclination to pull your punch because you have to be responsible for what you're saying. You cannot hide behind the mask. And also that if you talk about politics all the time, well, isn't that what that other guy did? Why would I. Or talk about the news all the time? Well, isn't that what isn't then how am I changing in any way? And it took me. Oh, gosh, I would say it took me almost half a year to realize that those two aren't mutually exclusive. That you can have a highly opinionated, highly topical show as yourself and not essentially fall back into the basket of the Colbert Report. And now I have no qualms about being sharp and satirical and highly opinionated and saying whatever's on my mind as quickly as I can and not worrying about that. I'm playing the same game. I know I'm not playing the same game, but it took me a little while to realize that the character was not in danger of re emerging.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, I was really glad when you added more political satire at the top of the show.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah, me too. It's much more enjoyable and the audience enjoys it. And it's more honest, actually. Cause it's what I consume all day.

[Terry Gross]

So you're doing comedy now, not behind the anchor desk, though Sometimes you're doing a monologue behind the anchor desk, but you're often doing it?

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes, I sit down there if it requires graphics, and if it requires a sustained argument, I do it behind the desk.

[Terry Gross]

But sometimes you're doing it standing up

[Stephen Colbert]

most of the time.

[Terry Gross]

So what have you had to learn in terms of, like, you know, walking out and standing in front of the microphone, figuring out what to do with your hands?

[Stephen Colbert]

That was easy. That part was really fast. But to enjoy taking my time with it, that's the thing. And seeing the smiles and the people in the front row unlocked the door for me and allowed me to really enjoy it. You've got to sincerely enjoy what you're doing, or else the audience, I think, can sniff it. And it took me a few months to really enjoy standing there. And as you can see, show first started, we did like three minute opening monologues. Now we do ten minute opening monologues. Because I don't want it to end. I want to stay there on stage with them.

[Terry Gross]

It seems to me one of the hard parts of doing an opening monologue is what to do when the audience is laughing.

[Stephen Colbert]

What to do when the audience is laughing?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Like, do you say something? Do you repeat the punchline? Do you just keep your hands in your pockets?

[Stephen Colbert]

Do you hide your erection?

[Barney Frank]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

What do you do? What do I do while the audience is laughing? That is the hardest part of the job. What will I do? What? Well, the audience is laughing. It's such a challenge, you know? How was the show last night? It was so hard. Why? The audience laughed so much. I didn't know what to do with myself.

[John Powers]

Oh, no, but really, you gotta do something.

[Terry Gross]

What do you do with something?

[Stephen Colbert]

Levitate something. Nail your feet to the floor. Cause you'll just fly up into the rafters. What does he do? You lean into it like it's a wind. It's the greatest feeling in the world. What do you do? That's the easiest part of the job. You smile and you're happy that they're happy. That's it. And then you're like, you know what the biggest challenge is?

[Terry Gross]

What?

[David Biancolli]

It's.

[Stephen Colbert]

Where do you jump back in to get to the next joke? How do you ride that energy to the next joke? How then can I use what the hero's given me to give them a better rhythm, a better joke the next time around? How can I slide down the front face of their wave to give them better energy back? It's like, how can I make this a reciprocal relationship? How can I make this moment feel as good for them as it's feeling for me right now? What can I give back to them? And because comedy is about rhythm, it's like, where you jump in on their. On their laughter is really maybe the only decision you're making. And if you're. And if you're. And if you're really feeling it, it's not a decision at all. So there's nothing to worry about. While the audience is. Is laughing, you have to wait for

[Terry Gross]

the right amount of decay of laughter before you come back in.

[Stephen Colbert]

Exactly. And if this wasn't radio, I would graph it for you.

[Terry Gross]

You probably would. So you used to come in and make the nightly stage entrance doing a kick dance with your bandleader, Jon Batiste. It was very manic. And you've taken that down a notch. And you're not doing the kick dance anymore?

[Stephen Colbert]

Nope.

[Terry Gross]

Can you talk about changing that?

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah. When the show first started, I thought, well, it's a giant space. It's a Broadway stage. What kind of energy? What level of energy? Do I need to fill this space that is then sort of captured by the camera? And because I used to very much do a show that was for the camera that the audience got to witness, I feel like now I'm doing a show for the room that the cameras witness. And that's.

[Terry Gross]

That's a really big difference.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah, yeah. And you really feel it when you're doing it. And I. My first choice was, well, err, on the side of energy. And then at a certain point I realized, well, that actually doesn't translate over the camera. And the audience is just. And the audience is just as energetic whether I do that or not. And so I started eliminating things and said, what. What's left? What's left is you walking on stage and doing jokes. And then. And so it was. It was just erring on the side of giving the audience more. Giving more energy, knowing I had enough energy for that room. What you learn eventually, and this is something I knew sort of intellectually, but I had forgotten instinctually, is that you actually don't need high energy to fill a large space. You need your own sense of presence and focus. You know, you can bend an entire room by bending a paperclip if you've got the focus of the room. And to accept that the audience, you know, that you are their focus. You don't need to do high kicks. You just need to be there, present for them, and then you fill the entire room.

[Terry Gross]

Is it a relief for you to be doing interviews as yourself as opposed to in character, trying to. Having to try to figure out what your character's take on that person would be?

[Stephen Colbert]

They're very different. It's not a relief. I enjoy knowing something about their subject, I'll tell you that. You know, I can have Neil Tyson on and know something about. Right, because your character was military exploration.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

No, my character was a strawman for whatever for whoever was on. I was a mass of ignorances. And for you to knock down should you choose to. I used to be alarmed that people would not knock them down. Like, someone would come on and they would call into question the ascendancy of whatever particular figure of the religious right. And I would say, well, you know, all the founding fathers were fundamentalist Christians. And then they wouldn't correct me and I'd go, oh, good Lord, what's gonna happen now? Now I've miseducated America again. I won. I don't wanna win. You know, I didn't always wanna win, but my character always wanted to win. The biggest difference is that I'm not there to win against my guests, and, you know, I'm letting them talk for more than seven seconds at a time. Where I was living by the old Joe Scarborough rule on the old show, which is, if your guest talks for more than seven seconds at a time, you've lost control of your show. And I don't do that anymore. I'm so happy to hear the stories that they have to tell. Now. The danger there when I first started the show is that then you bring. You have to bring some opinion to the table. You know, again, it was like a matter of overcorrection when the show first started. I guess I'll have no punch. And there's a great release. There's a great gift of exhaustion that comes on you from doing a show like this over and over and over again, that you actually lose all those second thoughts, and then you're allowed to sort of be yourself with your guests. Finally. And again, about six months into the show, I went, okay, I don't have any energy left to overthink this. I just have to do what instinctually feels good to me.

[Terry Gross]

And.

[Stephen Colbert]

And every aspect of the show got better and got easier and became more like me. Cause I didn't have time to think about it. I didn't have the energy to think about it anymore. I'll tell you who actually gave me kind of a hint about that is that one of my dear friends is Steve Higgins, who's Fallon's announcer and sort of sidekick. And I've known him for many years, and he's a lovely guy. And he said, so, how's the schedule going? I said, oh, we're starting two on Thursdays. And he goes, oh, thank God. You're going to love it. I said, why? It's going to kill me, right? And he goes, no, that second show you do on Thursday is how you should do the show every week, because you'll be too tired to worry about whether you're making the right choice. And he's absolutely right. And now that informs everything I do that's really interesting. Without the tired. I don't have to be tired, but I don't worry about the choices. I just do what feels good.

[Terry Gross]

So one more question. I have taken up a lot of your time this morning.

[Stephen Colbert]

Whatever you want. No, I really.

[Terry Gross]

No, no. But that's part of my question. That's part of my question. Okay, we're recording this in the morning. You have a lot of work to do before your show airs.

[Stephen Colbert]

It's 11:21 recording time.

[Terry Gross]

Yes.

[Stephen Colbert]

Where I am.

[Terry Gross]

So what do you have to do to compensate for the fact that you were generous enough to give us this interview?

[Stephen Colbert]

Breathe deeply and trust my staff. And I am capable of both. And then I'm ready for whatever the fresh wave of stress is, because you gotta kinda like the stress, too. I don't know how to attach a positive feeling to stress and pressure, but there is one. There's a bulletproof feeling that comes over you, and it's really a pleasant one. And you kind of have to like that. But to do one of these jobs, you gotta kinda learn to love the flaming toboggan ride of it. You gotta like it because everybody else is in the toboggan with you. You're doing it together. That's the joy. Everybody's doing it together. At the end of it, we went, hey, we survived. Pretty good show. Let's do it again tomorrow. And that's it. It's the movement forward because it never stops. You gotta love the downhill hurdle. There's no finish line. You gotta just love missing all those trees that you could have hit today.

[Terry Gross]

Stephen, I absolutely love talking with you. I'm so glad you came back to our show and I'm so glad you're back on tv.

[Stephen Colbert]

It is a.

[Barney Frank]

It is.

[Stephen Colbert]

It is a pleasure talking to you, Terry, because when I found out I'd be talking to you again, I thought, oh, I'm talking to Terry. Maybe the show means something.

[Terry Gross]

I love the show. I'm so glad you're doing it.

[David Biancolli]

Stephen Colbert speaking to Terry Gross in 2016. The last episode of the Late show with Stephen Colbert was televised last night on cbs. After a break, we remember Barney Frank, the former Democratic congressman from Massachusetts. He died Tuesday at age 86. This is FRESH AIR.

[NPR Announcer]

From Spider man to a new Steven Spielberg movie, we know the TV and movies you'll want to watch this summer.

[Stephen Colbert]

I'm excited about this film. I just know suspense, intrigue, aliens. And I'm like, all right, Spielberg, I'm in.

[NPR Announcer]

Check out the summer guide from Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts. This message comes from Jerry. Somewhere along the way, shopping for car insurance became synonymous with accepting whatever we're currently paying. Jerry disagrees respectfully but firmly. Jerry pulls up to 20 quotes from top insurers in minutes, lets you buy the best one in app without re entering your info, and keeps watching for better rates after you're done. No spam calls, no hidden fees. You don't have to call it shopping. Call it what it is winning. Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry

[David Biancolli]

ainPR Barney Frank, the former Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, was known for his quick wit, his championing of gay rights even before he came out himself, and for authoring one of the most significant pieces of legislation regarding financial regulation. He died Tuesday. He was 86. He was described in a New York Times obituary this way. A Harvard trained lawyer, Mr. Frank bristled with intellectual firepower, acidic turns of phrase, and a zest for verbal combat. Frank was elected to Congress in 1980 after serving eight years in the Massachusetts legislature. He came out in 1987 and in 2012 became the first member of Congress to enter into a same sex marriage. He was the powerful chairman of the House Financial Services Committee. In 2010, in response to the housing crisis of 2007 and the global financial crisis of 2008, he sponsored the Dodd Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection act with Senator Christopher Dodd of Connecticut. Barney Frank spoke with Terry Gross in 2015. At the time he had written his memoir. He described the response in the legislature when he advocated for gay rights.

[Barney Frank]

Well, it really even began in 73, and I've noted this. I began lobbying for the gay rights bill, as we then called it. That was just the one name. And people would be very open and say, hey, pal, are you kidding? I'm not gonna have some in my store. So, yeah, it was unrestrained. And then in 1981, the first issue I dealt with in Congress, the District of Columbia had repealed its criminal law against sodomy, against people of the same sex having voluntary sex with each other. And at that time, there was a rule that either house of Congress could pass a law and cancel anything in the criminal area that the District of Columbia did. And the House passed that, canceling it by a 3 to 1 margin. Even many Democrats voted against it. I got barely a majority of the Democrats. And when I went around lobbying, it was again, oh, these people are disgusting. Are you kidding, pal? What they do, oh, that turns my stomach. I can't allow that to happen.

[Terry Gross]

So you couldn't really say, did you know I'm gay? Because you weren't out yet. What would you say in response to that?

[Barney Frank]

Look, when you're in a legislative body, you try to win the argument on the easiest grounds to win the argument. Obviously, I disagreed with the moral disapproval, but it was unnecessary for me to win that one. It's almost like arguing in court. You focus on what you can win. And I would say to them, well, nobody's asking you to like it. Or not like it, or approve it, or not approve it. The only question is don't prevent other people, it doesn't hurt you. And that was the argument. And by the way, that evolved into the argument with which I think we were successful on same sex marriage. You begin by saying, nobody's asking you to say this is moral. Nobody's asking you to give up whatever view you have that this is a bad thing or the later we progress to that. At this point, all we're asking you to do is leave people alone. And even if people are doing something that you disapprove of, if it has no impact on you whatsoever, if it has no negative impact on anybody else, it's simply what these two people are doing, please don't mistreat them because of it. And that's, as I said, basically the way we started with same sex marriage as well.

[Terry Gross]

But then of course there was the argument, no, but if gay people get married, that hurts the institution of marriage. That hurts straight people who are married.

[Barney Frank]

You're absolutely right. And by the way, I think that's one of the reasons we ultimately win. And your question is really quite good in getting at that. By the time the Defense of Marad act came up, which is now 1995, 96, we had made some progress. So just as you correctly pointed out, by 1981, even people who had racist feelings didn't feel comfortable and articulated them. By the 90s, it was not considered respectable to talk about and to be very abusive about people. You could be disapproving, but you had to moderate it. So the real argument against our being able to marry was as I said, look, there were people who didn't like one of us and the notion of two of us getting together and being happy was geometrically worse. But they couldn't come out and say that it was not at that time acceptable, respectable to say, hey, we don't like those people and we don't want them hanging out with each other and being happy. So they came up with this notion and that's why it was called the Defense of Marriage Act. To be intellectually honest, it should have been we don't want those people to be able to get together act. But they had to come up with supposed negative social consequences. And one of the reasons that we were able to win this battle was they made the mistake. Because once Massachusetts broke the logjam and started same sex marriage, it became undeniably clear that there were no adverse consequences. So they had built their arguments on a false premise. But you correctly said, oh, it's the institution of marriage. In a debate on the Defense of Marriage Act. I got on the floor and said, I want to understand how does the fact that I love another man hurt your marriage? What about my relations, voluntary relations with another guy in any way jeopardizes your marriage? And I said, I'll yield to any member of the House who wants to explain to me how what I would do would hurt your marriage. And, and one guy got up, Steve Larger from Oklahoma, and he said, well, I'll tell the gentleman, no, it doesn't hurt my marriage. It doesn't hurt the marriage of other people here, but it hurts the institution of marriage. And my response was, well, it doesn't hurt any individual marriages, but despite that, it somehow hurts the institution of marriage. That is an argument that ought to be made by someone in an institution.

[Terry Gross]

Do you dream these lines up in advance?

[Barney Frank]

Not often. They kind of come to me. I'm lucky that way. You know, there are some things I'm not very good at, but I like humor. And some of them, the best humor is offered up to you by the stupidity of your opponents.

[Terry Gross]

You kind of make fun of your own Jersey accent in the book. Did you ever try to lose it? Did you ever think, well, if I'm going to be in public office, I have to speak more kind of standard American dialect?

[Barney Frank]

I didn't try to lose it. My mother, a wonderful woman who became a great advocate later in her life, did enroll me in elocution classes when I was 7 or 8. But it was a well intended gesture. But it didn't work. No, in fact, what I learned how to do was. It's kind of a political judo. I think I'd be able to make an asset out of some of my defects. For example, I've. I have a hard time dressing well. Jim, God bless him, works very hard to keep me in good shape. But in my first campaign, somebody wrote an article and said I was wearing an ill fitting suit. And I said, no, that's unfair. It was a well fitting suit. It just. I wasn't the person that fit. And as a state representative, somebody took a picture of me in which I looked a little disheveled and I put it up, said, reelect Frank. Neatness isn't everything. So the same with my voice. You become kind of. I think there is a certain blandness politicians have that does not work to your favor. So if you can be somewhat distinctive in ways that are not offensive, I think that's helpful.

[Terry Gross]

Barney Frank. Thank you. So much for talking with us.

[Barney Frank]

Thank you. I really enjoyed this. We had some good questions here.

[David Biancolli]

Barney Frank speaking to Terry Gross in 2015. His memoir, which he had just published, was titled Frank A Life in Politics from the Great Society to Same Sex Marriage. The Democratic congressman from Massachusetts died Tuesday at age 86. Coming up, critic at large John Powers reviews the Apple TV series Widow's Bay. This is FRESH air.

[NPR Announcer]

From Spider man to a new Steven Spielberg movie, we know the TV and movies you'll want to watch this summer.

[Stephen Colbert]

I'm excited about this film. I just know suspense, intrigue, aliens, and I'm like, all right, Spielberg, I'm in.

[NPR Announcer]

Check out the summer guide from Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts. This message comes from Jerry. Many people are overpaying on car insurance. Why? Switching providers can be a pain. Jerry helps make the process painless. Jerry is the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, download the Jerry app or head to Jerry AI npr.

[David Biancolli]

In the horror comedy Widow's Bay, now showing on Apple tv, Matthew Reese plays a mayor who wants to turn his New England island into a popular tourist destination. There's just one problem. The island may be a source of evil. Our critic at large, John Powers, says the series offers the funny, frightening delights of movies from an earlier era.

[John Powers]

When people ask me to name the scariest movie I ever saw, I always tell them Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, a 1948 romp I saw on TV as a kid. It's a slightly embarrassing answer, but in recent days I've had two other people tell me the same thing, one a 30 year old woman, the other an 82 year old man. We all agreed that what makes it so terrifying is that you think you're safely watching a dumb comedy, then boo, you're actually in a horror movie. Juggling laughter and fright is the strategy of Widow's Bay, a new Apple TV series that has rolled out about half of its 10 episodes. Created by Katie Dippold, who wrote the Ghostbusters remake and countless episodes of Parks and Recreation, this amusing, sometimes nerve wracking show has a soothingly retro feel. Looking back to horror stories of the 70s and 80s, it's like a Stranger Things intended for grownups. Matthew Rhys stars as Tom Loftus, a widower who's the mayor of Widow's Bay, a small, cozy seeming island off the New England coast. He's got the kind of quirky, exasperating staff you find in TV comedies. Most importantly, his lonely, awkward number two, Patricia. That's wonderful. Kato Flynn, who hits him with aggrieved zingers. It's Tom's dream to turn this sleepy island into another Martha's Vineyard, crawling with tourists who drink cappuccino, read the New York Times and make the place happening. But the townsfolk have their doubts about his plans. Partly because they don't like ponying up for espresso machines. Partly because Tom can't even seem to manage his teenage son, who smokes weed and gets into trouble. These superstitious locals also know something Tom works hard to deny. Widow's Bay is cursed. It has a centuries long history of plagues, ruinous typhoons, killer clowns. Talk about mixing comedy and horror. Not to mention all manner of supernatural visitations. Every few years, the island goes violently crazy. Here Tom is in the local historical society with a travel writer researching a piece on Widow's Bay. Tom tries to pooh, pooh, talk of the island's dark side.

[Stephen Colbert]

I was talking to the guy on the ferry and he said something odd. What was that? We said bad things happen here. You know, Arthur, there is something about these seafaring towns. The superstitions, their tall tales. Maybe it's that stories help pass a long day at sea. I don't know, but I find it charming myself. Was there cannibalism? No.

[Barney Frank]

Well, the article behind you, forced inside

[Stephen Colbert]

the church, they immediately turned to cannibalism. I don't think that's right. I mean, it's on a framed article inside the historical society. Yeah. You know, these stories get so exaggerated over time. I mean, look, was there a deadly storm in 1786? Yes. Did a group of people get trapped inside a church? Apparently so. Did they immediately turn to cannibalism? No. That took four days.

[John Powers]

Despite this, the travel writer does a glowing newspaper article on Widow's Bay. But just when the tourists start coming, bad things start to happen. Devouring mists roll in. Church bells inexplicably toll. People catch sight of spectral figures. Tom finds himself badgered by a grizzled boat captain named Wick, played by the always great Stephen Root, who tells him to raise an alarm and stop the ferry from bringing more visitors. But like the mayor in Jaws, who won't close the beach despite the shark attacks, Tom refuses. A mistake. Soon, Tom and Patricia and Wick are fighting to save the lives of the islanders and their visitors, an effort that requires, as ever, confronting what's buried in the past. Now, the benchmark for TV comedy horror is David Lynch's Twin Peaks, whose interlacing of goofiness and disturbing drama made it one of the most influential shows in television history. Widow's Bay is much lighter. Where lynch explored our scariest psychic murk, Diphole taps into our pop culture past. We keep bumping into images and ideas that reference movies like Jaws, Halloween, the Fog and the Wicker man, among others. Not to mention the work of Stephen King, whose titles appear prominently in the Bookmobile Patricia Drives Round Town. That said, widow's Bay gives you the pleasures you find in a handsomely tooled series with top notch talent from directors like Hiro Murai, who's best known for Atlanta, to deft old character actors like Dale Dickey and Kay Callan. All three leads are terrific, with o' Flynn teasing out the heroism and the forlorn Patricia and Root capturing the pathos beneath his driven exasperation. As for Rhys, who specializes in uncomfortable heroes, he's rarely been this good. His beleaguered Tom is a man whose face always starts off looking cocky, then melts into anxiety. Like nearly all series these days, Widow's Bay doesn't truly end. Dippold leaves doors open for a second season, which I would cheerfully watch. But she does build to a climax filled with emotion and with suspense that isn't merely suspenseful. The story confronts Tom and us with a moral conundrum that philosophers call the trolley problem. For all its comedy, Widow's Bay winds up asking a thorny question just how far would you go and who would you sacrifice to save those around you from harm?

[David Biancolli]

John Powers reviewed the new Apple TV series Widow's Bay on Monday's show for Memorial Day, some music and conversation with Billie Eilish and Phineas o'. Connell. There's a new concert film titled Hit Me Hard and the Tour, which was co directed by Eilish and James Cameron. Hope you can join us.

[Stephen Colbert]

I want you to stay

[Barney Frank]

till I'm in the grave.

[David Biancolli]

You can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. FRESH air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shoron. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Charlie Kyer. For Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley I'm David Biancooli.

[NPR Announcer]

From Spider man to a new Steven Spielberg movie, we know the TV and movies you'll want to watch this summer.

[Stephen Colbert]

I'm excited about this film. I just know suspense, intrigue, aliens, and I'm like, all right, Spielberg. I'm in.

[NPR Announcer]

Check out the summer guide from Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.