Colman Domingo loves a challenge

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – "Colman Domingo Loves a Challenge"

Date: August 13, 2026
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guest: Colman Domingo

---

Overview

This episode of Fresh Air features a wide-ranging conversation between host Tonya Mosley and acclaimed actor, playwright, director, and producer Colman Domingo. With two recent Emmy nominations for his roles in Netflix's The Four Seasons and HBO’s Euphoria, Domingo reflects on his career’s late bloom in Hollywood after decades on the stage, exploring themes of reinvention, ambition, artistic process, and personal growth. The conversation traverses his comedic and dramatic roles, his background, his recent acclaimed performances (Michael, Sing Sing), and his philosophy on creativity and aging.

---

Key Topics and Insights

1. Hosting Jimmy Kimmel Live & Embracing New Challenges

[02:09–03:03]

• Domingo shares the thrill of hosting Jimmy Kimmel Live for a week, embracing unfamiliar territory:

  “Things are coming to me right now…opportunities to do things I’ve never done before.”

• Preparation involved studying late-night legends like Jack Paar and Johnny Carson:

  "I looked at the greats, and I wanted to figure out, how did they do it and what was their style, and what would my style be?" ([02:50])

2. Comedy and Character in The Four Seasons

[03:04-09:36]

• Domingo discusses Danny—a witty, vain, middle-aged man wrestling with the decision to become a parent with his husband, Claude.
• Clip showcases Danny’s banter and anxieties (w/Tina Fey):

  “We’re either never gonna do it, or we’re gonna become two Tony Randalls who feed our baby applesauce that we also eat.” ([04:35])

• Domingo finds humor in the character’s acid wit, describing Danny as “an alter universe me.”
• Collaborating with comedic heavyweights (Tina Fey, Steve Carell, Will Forte):

  “What Tina and the rest of the gang could tell is that I’m willing and I’m game... It felt new and fresh again for me, especially this late in my career.” ([07:11])

• On comedians’ seriousness:

  “They almost look at the math of it…Most comedians I know are serious people. Tina’s very shy…Steve Carell’s very shy.” ([08:04])

3. Directing While Acting

[08:32–10:29]

• Domingo directed episodes of The Four Seasons while simultaneously performing intense scenes:

  “I can manage a lot, which is why I’ve always been a director since I started in the theater, because I can handle a lot of frisbees up in the air…” ([09:06])

• Traces this multitasking skill to his early curiosity—watching theater rehearsals, learning every aspect of production.

4. Upbringing & Early Curiosity

[10:29–12:07]

• Raised in West Philadelphia, the first in his family to go to college.
• Emphasizes learning as power—absorbing knowledge from all departments, not just acting.

5. Exploring Depth in Euphoria

[13:38–17:56]

• Domingo reflects on Ali, his character in Euphoria—a recovering addict and mentor to Zendaya’s Rue.
• Final season’s AA meeting scene:

  “Only thing I know for certain is that there is a right and a wrong in this world. And you know, in between, you’re either making the world a better place or you’re making it worse. In the end. It’s that simple.” ([14:30])

• Tonya notes how Domingo played Ali “cold” in the finale:

  “That was a choice…that's the toll that it’s taken on him.” ([15:25])

• The show’s Western-inspired moral simplicity mirrored in Ali’s worldview.

6. Emotional Investment in Roles

[16:33–17:56]

• Domingo describes how he carries a piece of each character within him, citing an Abby Lincoln lyric:

  “I believe everyone lives in me, and everyone calls on me to help tell their story.” ([16:41])

7. Family, Identity and Nurturing Creativity

[17:56–20:20]

• His mother’s imagination and hopefulness inspired him:

  “She set me up early with the belief that the world is set up to do me more good than harm.” ([18:20])

• Childhood described as “weird” but supportive—playing violin, loving the library, embraced by family for his uniqueness.

8. Portraying Joe Jackson in Michael

[22:44–27:45]

• On embodying Joe Jackson, Michael Jackson’s controversial father:

  "The Joe Jackson that would live in me is represented by all the blue collar men that I know…who believe it was work ethic.” ([25:26])

• Sought to portray Jackson’s complexity, not just public reputation:

  “…in his mind, he’s the hero.” ([27:16])

9. Producing, Starring in, and the Impact of Sing Sing

[29:46–34:00]

• Played Divine G, a real man who ran a transformative theater program in an actual prison—profoundly reduced recidivism.
• Domingo’s company, Edith Productions, helped finance the film:

  “It helped these guys get more in touch with their feelings…It became a tool to help them and process while they were on the inside.” ([29:58])

• Chose to cast real former prisoners, anchoring with a few professional actors for depth.

10. Struggles, Perseverance, and Breaking Through

[34:00–37:56]

• Long period of auditioning without major success; nearly left the industry after a string of rejections.
• Eventually booked Fear the Walking Dead, marking a turning point:

  "I had that yes to keep going.” ([37:56])

11. Finding Freedom and Joy in Age

[37:56–40:04]

• Delights in his 50s, not feeling rushed—embracing more conscious choices:

  “I bring up my age sort of as a lovely marker because I really love being in my 50s…I feel like it's so cool and it’s so good.” ([38:19])

• Adopts "truth telling season" philosophy—learning to say "no" without guilt as he grows older.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Research and Preparation:

  "The first thing I do is I go into deep research. I went back and looked at old Jack Paar shows…Johnny Carson." ([02:48])

• On Comedy and Seriousness:

  "Most comedians I know are very serious people. Also, they're also a bit shy…Tina’s very shy…Steve Carell’s very shy." ([08:04])

• On Growing Up Nurtured:

  "I was nurtured to be soft. To be very honest, I’m thinking about my sister right now. She’s like, you’re such a weirdo...But yet still, they loved their sweet, soft little brother." ([19:46])

• On Living with Characters:

  "I believe everyone lives in me, and everyone calls on me to help tell their story." ([16:41])

• On the Value of Age:

  “I feel like if anything, right now, I’m taking more time and being very conscious about time with people.” ([38:10])

---

Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• 02:09–03:03: Colman on hosting Jimmy Kimmel Live
• 04:02–05:26: Clip from The Four Seasons; character dynamics
• 08:32–10:29: Directing episodes, managing multiple responsibilities
• 13:38–14:52: Euphoria finale; Ali’s AA speech
• 22:44–25:08: Clip from Michael; Domingo as Joe Jackson
• 29:46–33:03: Sing Sing and the real-life theater program
• 34:00–37:56: Surviving rejection, finding his footing
• 38:10–40:04: Embracing his 50s and new priorities

---

Conclusion

In this engaging interview, Colman Domingo reveals himself as a deeply thoughtful artist, ever-curious and self-reflective. He discusses his creative process, comic and dramatic range, and the unique trajectory that led to his celebrated status. From his creative upbringing and resilience through industry setbacks to his empathy in bringing complex characters to life, Domingo embodies a philosophy of perpetual learning, self-belief, and genuine joy in each new challenge, regardless of age or genre.

---

This summary covers all major content sections and key quotes for listeners who want a vivid sense of Colman Domingo’s journey, motivations, and spirit—without needing to hear the entire episode.

Transcript

[Colman Domingo]

Support for this NPR podcast and the following message come from Carvana. Selling your car. Carvana has offers so good they're almost inexplicable. Sell your car 100% online in minutes. Visit Carvana.com today.

[Tonya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley. My guest today, Colman Domingo, is nominated for two Emmy Awards this year for two very different performances. In the Netflix comedy the Four Seasons, he plays Danny, one half of a long married couple who vacation each year with their oldest. Danny is funny, vain, impeccably dressed and now in his 50s, confronting a question he thought he'd settled long ago, whether he wants to become a father. And in the final season of HBO's Euphoria, Domingo returns as Ali, a man in long term recovery who has spent the series trying to help Rue, played by Zendaya, stay alive. Domingo won an Emmy for that role in 2022, and this year he's nominated again for his performance and in the series finale. It's the latest chapter and a remarkable stretch for Domingo, whose rise in Hollywood came after decades in the theater. He started in regional productions in San Francisco, then moved to New York where he performed on Broadway, won an Obie, was nominated for a Tony and an Olivier, and wrote and directed his own plays in his 40s. Hollywood caught up with him and since then he's had a steady run of roles, an Emmy and back to back Oscar nominations for the film Rustin and Sing. Just this year, he played Joe Jackson in the biopic Michael and had a role in Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day and hosted Saturday Night Live. And just last month, Jimmy Kimmel, welcome

[Colman Domingo]

to Jimmy KIMMEL live. I'm your guest host, Colman Domingo. I'm so happy to be here with all of you. We're going to have some fun this week. Just think of me, ask Jimmy if he had better clothes than Zendaya's phone number.

[Tonya Moseley]

Colman Domingo, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Colman Domingo]

Oh, thank you so much, Tanya. I appreciate it.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was such a delight to see you on Jimmy Kimmel. Every summer he has guest hosts who come in and you were in the rotation and you were in the rotation for just about a whole week.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, for a whole week. And it was great. It was like the week of a lifetime. It was so much fun. And, you know, I love that things are coming to me right now, like opportunities to do things I've never done before. Like I've never hosted a late night show, but I love the idea of looking at myself the way someone else sees Me. And if Jimmy thought that I could do it, I thought, well, let me try. But the first thing I do is I go into deep research. I went back and looked at old Jack Parr shows.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh, you did? You went in.

[Colman Domingo]

Oh, yeah. Johnny Carson. I looked at the greats, and I wanted to figure out, how did they do it and what was their style, and what would my style be?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. Well, congratulations on your Emmy nominations and on being able to host Jimmy Kimmel Live.

[Colman Domingo]

Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

The Four Seasons is such a fun watch, and it's about three couples, old friends who vacationed together for decades. And what happens to the group when those marriages start to shift, which happens with everyone's relationship. This season, your character, Danny, he's dealing with several issues within his own marriage. And he and his husband Claude have been talking about having a child. And Claude is. He's basically having second thoughts. And so I actually want to play a scene. In this scene, Danny has just come from one of those conversations with his partner, and he's confiding in his best friend Kate, played by Tina Fey, while they look at a beach home that is for sale. Let's listen.

[Colman Domingo]

Okay. 655 Ocean Lane. Wow. I mean, the wallpapers. Midwest funeral home. But the house. If we were smart, we would buy it and turn it into a bed and breakfast.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh, I'm in. I will retire early and run it. And then when our husbands die.

[Colman Domingo]

Claude, botched facelift. Jack, perforated rectum from too many unnecessary colonoscopies.

[Tonya Moseley]

We'll live here together.

[Colman Domingo]

Can we do it now? Claude's pissing me off.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh, is it because of his bonnet?

[Colman Domingo]

The surrogate asks if we're still interested, but now all of a sudden, Claude thinks that we're too old.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oof. I mean, I get it.

[Colman Domingo]

No, he's supposed to say, you're not too old, and how dare he?

[Tonya Moseley]

I'm sorry.

[Colman Domingo]

You are very young.

[Tonya Moseley]

You told me who Sza was.

[Colman Domingo]

Do I know for sure. For sure if we should do it? No. But I do know we can't keep talking about it. We're either never gonna do it, or we're gonna become two Tony Randalls who feed our baby applesauce that we also eat.

[Tonya Moseley]

Okay, if you're really having trouble making a decision, my therapist.

[Colman Domingo]

No.

[Tonya Moseley]

Has a book.

[Colman Domingo]

Absolutely not.

[Tonya Moseley]

Called the three magic questions I'll kill

[Colman Domingo]

you in your sleep.

[Tonya Moseley]

It really helped me decide whether I should do Invisalign for a third time. I decided possibly at a later date.

[Colman Domingo]

There's nothing to decide at this point, we just need to push through.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes, you could push through, or you could seriously consider Claude's concerns. Is this right for both of you or.

[Colman Domingo]

Hi, Brenda. We are definitely still interested.

[Tonya Moseley]

What are you doing?

[Colman Domingo]

I'm pushing through.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest, Colman Domingo, in the Netflix series the Four Seasons. Throughout that entire clip, you kept laughing at all the different points.

[Colman Domingo]

Oh, my God, Danny is so acerbic. My gosh. He's like an alter universe. Me, I think. Listen.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

In what way?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Colman Domingo]

He's just really and funny. He's really a creation that I really, really love. I love the way the writers write for him.

[Tonya Moseley]

Did you have a hand in it, though?

[Colman Domingo]

The funny thing is. No, I would say the thing that I have a hand in, I will. When I first met with Tina Fey to talk about this character because she's

[Tonya Moseley]

the creator of the series.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, she's the creator of this. Yeah, she and Lang Fisher and Tracy Wakefield, they wanted to bring together a group of people that they understood, you know, Based on the 1981 Alan Alda film, but to really make it modern and fun and warm and make sure that this couple in particular, it's one of the, you know, central couples as well. This couple should feel like a couple that I understand. And I knew that. The thing that I told Tina was here's a same sex loving couple that are really in very heteronormative environments. Like, these couples are having issues like everyone else, but they're also very spirited and very much who they are.

[Tonya Moseley]

This is an ensemble of comedy veterans Tina Fey and Will Forte. They came up through SNL, as we know, Steve Carell through Second City, Carrie, Kenny Silver through Reno 911. And that is largely improvised. And you have done some comedy, but you have come from some serious places. You come from the theater, you know, very much so. Did that make for any interesting dynamics on the set?

[Colman Domingo]

Well, the thing is, when I first got got the invitation to be a part of it, I thought for a second, I thought, well, why me in particular? Like, I'm not really known for comedy, but I think that what Tina and the rest of the gang could tell is that I'm willing and I'm game. But I hadn't relied on those comedic chops in a long time. So to lean into that was something. It felt new and fresh again for me, especially this late in my career where the idea of doing a half hour comedy was a challenge. I wanted to see if I could do it More than anything, I can

[Tonya Moseley]

just Imagine, though, being with all of those funny men and women. Did it feel good when they laughed at the stuff you said?

[Colman Domingo]

You know, you know what? It does. But the funny thing is about funny people, and I'll tell you this, they will. And I wonder if they would say this about themselves. They don't naturally laugh when something's funny because they're like mad scientists. They almost look at the math of it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh, they're dissecting it.

[Colman Domingo]

That's good. I wonder how that happened. You did this, you turned on this line, you blah, blah, blah. You gave a pause, you gave a beat. And most comedians I know are very serious people. And also they're also a bit shy. I think my. I would say this. Tina's very shy. I would say Steve Carell's very shy. But they know how to get the thing done. Like mathematicians. They look at it in that framework, which I think is fascinating.

[Tonya Moseley]

You actually directed an episode.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, this season and this season and

[Tonya Moseley]

last season, Lang Fisher, one of the three co creators of the show, when you directed the episode Ultimate Frisbee, she watched you cry in a scene you were in while directing another actor through his own tears, going back into that character you were in to keep crying all while still watching whether the background performer meets its steps. And that seems like an extraordinary amount of work to hold all at once. It is.

[Colman Domingo]

And I don't know if everyone's brain is meant for that, but I feel like I have one of those brains. I can manage a lot, which is why I've always been a director since I started in the theater, because I can handle a lot of frisbees up in the air at the same time. So I know the scene exactly she was talking about. She was amazed that I was able to direct my costar while keeping my emotional work, while being able to look at playback, while making sure that background is doing what they need to do. I just have one of those brains.

[Tonya Moseley]

Where does that come from? I know you're hyper organized.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, I'm hyper organized. But also maybe that's it. I'm well prepared and planned, so I can be loose and free, but my mind is been on everything. I think it starts with the way I came into this industry, which was learning by going to rehearsals. I wasn't even in. I would go and sit into rehearsals like when I was 21 years old in San Francisco.

[Tonya Moseley]

And play rehearsals.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, play rehearsals. And I would. I would watch and I would watch all departments and what was going on. So I had a handle of everything. And also, if I was invited to be in a scene, I would be able to take a look at what I'm doing and how the engine of what I'm doing is forwarding the whole thing. So I'm never just focused. I don't know, solely as an actor or as a writer or director. I'm looking at the whole picture at all times. So I know I can manage that. So I think that that's what my brain naturally does.

[Tonya Moseley]

What made you want to do that? I'm thinking about a young Coleman you could have just been focused on. I want to act, I want to be on the stage, or I want to write, I want to be a screenplay writer. But for you to say, I'm going to, on my free time, step into someone else's rehearsal and dissect it, I'm

[Colman Domingo]

just very curious about all of it. It's always been that way for me. And I think that's. I just been a very curious. I was a very curious kid and I knew that. Listen, I come from a very humble place. I come from West Philadelphia, inner city West Philadelphia, where, you know, a lot of blue collar folks. I was the first in my family to go to college. And my. I think I knew that my power was in learning and education and learn as much as you can and get as much as you can from every situation. So you name it. Whatever show I'm on, I can't just go in there just as an actor. I will always end up as a director and a producer, you name it, because I have that interest. Not everyone has that. There's some people very singular and that's also fine. But I know that, like when I did the show Fear the Walking Dead, I started as number nine on the call sheet, ended at number two and a director and a producer, you know, so for me, even with four seasons, I love the fact that I'm a director in that show because I feel like I understand it and I can give something to it. You know, I understand the actors that I'm working with, mostly comedians who I sort of help usher them to go to the, you know, more dramatic places. And it surprises them where they're able to go. And I love that. I love that, you know, because I know I have that facility to do that and help bring the best out of my cast.

[Tonya Moseley]

Let's talk about Euphoria for a moment.

[Colman Domingo]

I would love to.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. I mean, Euphoria lovers watched the end of an era this year. And to remind people your role was as Ali. He is A man in long term recovery. He was also Rue's sponsor. And Rue is played by Zendaya. This was basically written for you by Euphoria's creator, Sam Levinson, and he wrote it based on his own former sponsor. So it was inspired by that. And there have been so many mixed reactions. You know, of course, when a show ends, it is. You can't please everybody on how a show ends. But this show in particular, because we have been following Rue, we have been following you and all the characters to end the way it ends feels both devastating, but it also feels true. Like it feels extremely true to life. I wanna play a scene from this last episode. Ali's purpose at this point in the show had been to be a support for people battling addiction. And it feels like a job he can't ever really be successful at because kids keep dying. I mean, Fentanyl is out there and it is killing people. And without giving away spoilers, I will say that at this point in the show, I. Ali is tired and he is brokenhearted. And here he is at an AA meeting giving his testimony. Let's listen.

[Colman Domingo]

A couple of months ago, I lost someone I really cared about. And for the first time in a long time, I picked up a drink. I ain't gonna know what to do with the pain. I've been a Christian Muslim. Suddenly I found myself not believing it. I just know that I'm tired. Tired of losing people. Tired of spending my life in these rooms and in diners and at my house, talking to kids, helping kids, pouring my heart and soul into kids, only to not see them get a second chance. I'm done. Only thing I know for certain is that there is a right and a wrong in this world. And you know, in between, you're either making the world a better place or you're making it worse. In the end. It's that simple. This is gonna be my last meeting. I'm gonna find another way to be of better service.

[Tonya Moseley]

That is my guest today, Colman Domingo. In the last episode of season three of Euphoria. Colman. We watch the evolution of Ali. He's trying to save Rue. He's also trying to do that for himself. He's sponsoring other people's children. Cause he doesn't have a relationship with his own children. But with that in mind, how did you think about how you would play him? How you would wrap him up? Because you kind of chose to play him cold. You did not play him emotional. And that seems to be a choice.

[Colman Domingo]

That was a choice. I think because that's the toll that it's taken on him. I think that he's someone who's very deeply feeling. And I thought, in the writing of it, I thought, okay, well, here's someone who's given so much to so many. And when this significant death happens, I think it numbs him. And then he's on a mission trying to find what was important. When he went back to the bottle, he knew that wasn't it either. And he was like, I have to do something else. The most beautiful thing about this last season of Euphoria is the framework. The framework is of an American Western.

[Tonya Moseley]

It is, yes.

[Colman Domingo]

And in Westerns, classic Westerns, there's just good and bad. And Ali decided that that was it. There's no in between. He's going against something that he used to espouse that was a bit more complicated. He said, actually, no, people just don't know the difference between right and wrong. And that's it. So therefore, I'm gonna fight for what's right, and I'm gonna use what I have in this moment to fight for good. And that's what he does.

[Tonya Moseley]

Do you metabolize these characters and these storylines with that emotional way of feeling like it's true? Did you mourn at all?

[Colman Domingo]

I think you could possibly tell that even listening to either character, there's something that's so close and in my skin, like, my body just started to react. I started to cry when I was listening to that, but start crying now, just talking about him, because they're in me. All of these characters are in me. I mean, we haven't talked about Joe Jackson yet, but Joe Jackson's in me. I mean, you know, by Rustin's in Me, I think there's an Abby Lincoln song that says, I've got some people in me. I believe everyone lives in me, and everyone calls on me to help tell their story. And so it is metabolized in me. There's aspects of them in my experience or the people that I know that I can tap into. So literally, you know, I'm not a method actor, but I can go very deep with my characters. But I know that they're just right here. I just. I can tap and literally just listening, which is why a lot of times I watch. I don't watch my work that often unless I need it to. Like, oh, let me remember what I'm talking about before I go into due press. But if I watch it sometimes, like my movie Sing Sing, I've only watched it twice because it feels closer to anything I've ever done. It feels closer to me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Colman, I was very fascinated, you growing up in West Philadelphia, watching the news with your mother every evening, and you having the sense and understanding that, oh, I'm seeing lots of things in the world that are troubling. But also, this is not a full view of the world, and I want to be a part of providing a more expansive view and where that came from for you.

[Colman Domingo]

My mother was very much. How can I say? She had a great imagination and she was very hopeful and believing. She set me up early with the belief that the world is set up to do me more good than harm. And it may not be here where we are, but it's out there. And it's in all those books that I would read. It's in all the books that I read about ancient Egypt and Rome and the world. And she inspired me to go see the world, go out there in the world. There's more than just this. She said, you can go there someday. You can actually go to those places. And I believed her, you know, so I think that she really believed in. She was very spiritual, but she also helped me believe in myself and believe that I could be a part of the world. I owe so much to my mom and to my stepfather and to my family growing up, because I feel like I was a very. I was sort of the weird kid in a way, and. Weird.

[Tonya Moseley]

What does that mean?

[Colman Domingo]

I don't know, because I feel like I didn't do what other kids did. I played with Legos and in the house, and I played the violin and all the stuff that, like, I guess, you know, inner city kids didn't do so much, it seemed, at that time. And I was always in the library from the moment school was over and I was in the library and I was creating there. I was sort of the weird little brother. I wasn't into athletics and I wasn't into.

[Tonya Moseley]

And you didn't feel pressure to do it anyway?

[Colman Domingo]

No, no. I was very nurtured. I was nurtured to be soft. To be very honest, I'm thinking about my sister right now. She's like, you're such a weirdo.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's what she would call you.

[Colman Domingo]

She's such a weirdo. But then she would hug me or my brother Rick will come in from gymnastics present. You know, he's tough, and he was one of the cool kids, but yet still, they loved their sweet, soft little brother. Yeah, yeah, they loved me, and they made me feel special. No one ever made me feel that I I wasn't the person I was supposed to be.

[Tonya Moseley]

Our guest today is award winning actor Colman Domingo. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.

[Colman Domingo]

This message comes from Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast so you've got a curious mind. Did you know that drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average? Visit progressive.com and get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[Tonya Moseley]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware President and co founder Jay Kalik shares the key ingredients that go into Made in products.

[Colman Domingo]

We try to design products that are gonna last you an incredibly long time. And to know that we're making this in places that take the raw material seriously, take the manufacturing processes seriously, that's ultimately what's gonna allow us to sleep better at night selling this product to you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Learn more about Made in Cookware at M-A-E-I-Ncookware.com what makes a perfect cover song?

[Lloyd Schwartz]

One that's so good it completely eclipses the original.

[Colman Domingo]

On the latest All Songs Considered from NPR Music.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

We make a For the greatest of all time.

[Colman Domingo]

That is what I want out of a great cover. Something that picks at the thing that was in the Psalm but that was not made explicit. Check out new episodes of All Songs Considered in the NPR Music podcast every Tuesday.

[Tonya Moseley]

This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Moseley and my guest today is actor, playwright, director and producer Colman Domingo. He's nominated for two Emmy Awards this year for the Netflix comedy the Four Seasons and for the final season of HBO's Euphoria. He won an Emmy for Euphoria in 2022. Domingo came up in the theater and has been nominated for both a Tony and an Olivier. He's also a playwright. On film, he's worked with Steven Spielberg, Ava DuVernay, Barry Jenkins, Lee Daniels and Lincoln, Selma, if Beale Street Could Talk and the butler. He played Mr. In the Color Purple and has been nominated for back to back Academy Awards for best Actor. Recently he played Joe Jackson in Michael, the biopic of the early years of Michael J. You know, Joe Jackson is the reason why we have Jackson 5.

[Colman Domingo]

Absolutely.

[Tonya Moseley]

Why we had Michael. He also was a complicated person. He was an abusive father who demanded excellence. And I'm gonna play a bit of your performance and we'll talk about it on the other side. In this scene, Michael is a young man. He has just finished recording Thriller. And this is the album that's gonna make him the most famous man in the world. He lives with his parents. So he comes home and he finds his father in his room. And Joe wants Michael to tour with his brothers as the Jackson 5. And it's the last thing that Michael wants to do. Michael talks first.

[Colman Domingo]

Why are you here? Well, can't a father visit his son? Biggest selling record of all time from a poor kid from Gary. Who would have thought? Me, I thought. Come here, Joseph. I know you want something. Michael, I'm gonna need you to tour with your brothers now. I'll let you do that album by yourself. I'm gonna need you to do this for me, for your family. I'm not a child anymore, Joseph. And you're not my manager. Here we go. I have to start living my own life, on my own, just like everyone else. You ain't like everyone else. So you're trying to tell me you want to be treated like an adult? All right. You want to see what the world is like without a family that protects you? Without a family that understands you? Nobody else will understand you. Outside this place, you'll be with all the money in the world, surrounded by people who say yes to everything. Is that what you want? What kind of sense that make? I'm gonna call Don King and tell him you're doing a tour. I know you don't wanna let your family down.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest today. Colman Domingo as Joe Jackson and Jafar Jackson as Michael Jackson in the movie Michael. Well, Colman, you just mentioned that in order to play Joe, you had to tap into the Joe inside of you. I think that's really interesting. Tell me a little bit more about that.

[Colman Domingo]

I'll say the Joe Jackson that would live in me is represented by all the blue collar men that I know of a certain generation who were raised, you know, pre civil rights. The men who were like, maybe had a third grade education, who they believe it was work ethic. Showing up, showing up for your family and making it a family business.

[Tonya Moseley]

The great migration men.

[Colman Domingo]

It's the great migration men, absolutely. Men that I have a soft spot for. That I understand. It's like my stepfather was probably part of the generation. He was a guy who had a seventh grade education and he sanded hardwood floors. He had a craft and he was very tough when he met my mom. My mom had three children. And he became my stepfather. And he had very rigorous rules, which was about education, doing your homework, being a man of your word, chores. He was tough. When he came home, you better make sure the house was clean. And I think that I understood that kind of man. I'm like, okay, now let me get into the head space of that man, that man who's got to support the Jackson family. Nine children, you know, he's working at a steel mill. His sons have talent. And his sons also asked him to help them. They were like, they're starting a group, everybody's starting groups. And he saw talent in his kids and he worked them. That scene that you played is one of my favorite scenes, actually, because it starts to go into a lot of the things that, you know, I have to look through the lens of Joe Jackson. I had to look at the lens of being a father and a parent. I couldn't let what people said about him be the truth.

[Tonya Moseley]

And how did you do that? Because you're an actor, but you're also just a person who was born and raised in the United States. And the place that the Jackson 5 and Michael Jackson plays in our imagination looms so large. I mean, you're coming into it with the preconceived emotions.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah. But the first thing you do with anyone, you take the person and you look at the character of the person. And I looked at interviews. I even had one wonderful, this interesting interview. I wouldn't say wonderful. Interesting interview. When Joe was asked about, like being harsh to his children, especially to Michael, and he sits there with a smile, he said, well, yeah, Michael said, yeah, I whooped him. Yeah, like he admitted. Like I whooped him. He said, but I whooped him all the way to the bank. So in his mind, he's the hero.

[Tonya Moseley]

If you're just joining us, my guest is award winning actor Colman Domingo. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air. This week on HERE and now anytime why older siblings may be more financially successful. It has to do with germs. Second born children exposed to more respiratory illness early in life were less likely to finish high school or, or college. All that and more on Here and Now Anytime on the NPR app and anywhere you listen to podcasts. The working class, it's a term politicians throw around a lot these days. But do we know what it actually means? Midterm elections are coming up.

[Colman Domingo]

And on it's been a minute, we

[Tonya Moseley]

discuss who these candidates are really talking about.

[Colman Domingo]

Watch the full it's been a minute

[Tonya Moseley]

episode on YouTube or listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts attention. A PSA from Short Wave NPR Science podcast. You need to be paying more attention to your poop. I really do think that this deep stigma we have about talking about pooping is tied to these early onset colorectal cancer cases. What to watch out for and how to decode the secret messages hidden in your poop on Short Wave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is FRESH air. And today I am talking with Colman Domingo. He's up for two Emmys this year for the Netflix comedy the Four Seasons and for the final season of HBO's Euphoria. He's also been nominated for back to back Academy Awards for Rustin and for sing sing in 2024. You played divine G in the film Sing Sing, for which you were nominated for an Academy Award. And it is about a group of men incarcerated at Sing Sing Prison, a play. And it's based on a real program there called Rehabilitation through the Arts. And your company, Edith Productions, which is named after your mother.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Helped finance and produce this film. What was it that made you say, I've got to go all in. I've got to put my whole self in it, my money, my time, everything, and act in it?

[Colman Domingo]

I got this really incredible opportunity from Greg Kuidar and Clint Bentley, the, the director and producer of Sing Sing. They were putting together something that really there was no script and it was just an article, an old article they had about this program. They sent me that and they said, we've been trying to make a film about this program in some way, but not about the program. It should just be about people. And then the idea of inviting former incarcerated men to be a part of it who went through this program called Rehabilitation through the Arts that started in Sing Sing where you have theater professionals that come in and they teach the incarcerated men theater games and put on plays. And they found that doing that and it was all, you know, organized by the inmates. They find by doing that, it helped these guys get more in touch with their feelings, exhibit a bit more empathy. It became a tool to help them and process while they were on the inside. And then the recidivism rate was less than 6% of those who had gone through the program, of those who had gone through the program, which I thought was extraordinary. So based on all of that, I thought I would love to be a part of this.

[Tonya Moseley]

Divine G, your Character who's a real person in running this theater program. It's his entire world. And I want to play a scene where he's at his clemency hearing because he's at a moment where he's up for potentially being released from prison. And he's trying to explain what the program has meant to him and what. One of the commissioners isn't buying it. She wants to know whether she's watching a performance. Let's listen. You've been involved in numerous programs. It's too long a list for me to go through. But I do have a question about the theater program. You've been involved in that many years, have you not?

[Colman Domingo]

Yes. Yes, ma'.

[Tonya Moseley]

Am.

[Colman Domingo]

I am a founding member of this program. It's something I'm very proud of.

[Tonya Moseley]

And what part do you play in this program? Actor, Director?

[Colman Domingo]

Well, we all do a few things. I'm on what is called the steering committee. We make a lot of decisions for how it operates. And from time to time, I do act like we all do. And it's been a program that was established to help the population with management skills. And it's turned into something a bit more, I don't know, wonderful because it helps people get more in touch with their feelings and able to process and actually move through and truly get some rehabilitation.

[Tonya Moseley]

So are you acting at all during this interview?

[Colman Domingo]

Absolutely not. I truly hope that you can understand that I've been very sincere. I know how meaningful this is. I would never actually. That's not the intention of acting. Acting is just a process.

[Tonya Moseley]

I read about the program. It's a good program. That is my guest, Colman Domingo, as Divine G in the film Sing Sing.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Colman Domingo]

The clemency officer is played by the great Sharon Washington.

[Tonya Moseley]

Thank you. Yes.

[Colman Domingo]

Who is one of my dearest friends. And so I was able to populate the film with just a couple actors who are actually professional actors who can help anchor these moments. And so when this scene comes up, I thought, we need that voice of someone who is the system. And in particular, I think it was written as sort of a white male. And I brought the idea of great cuidar up. I'm like, I think it should be a black woman, because no one knows that a black woman, when she's in a position of authority in that way, she's gotta be more system because there are more eyes on her. So she almost had to be a bit more removed and be the system. And I thought, that's also a complicated story. That's a story within a Story of the demands put on black women.

[Tonya Moseley]

You know, one of the things also about that performance that came up for me is like, okay, it's you in front of. You're having to display yourself in the same way. It's not the same thing, but similar to the audition process, where you have to stand up before people and they have to judge you. And my goodness, early in your career, you did this so much.

[Colman Domingo]

You all the time.

[Tonya Moseley]

I think I read here that you were auditioning in your 40s as many as eight times a week, still bartending, and you weren't working. And there is one day when you received a phone call where you decided that, like, I'm done.

[Colman Domingo]

I was exhausted from the output that I've been putting in for years in this industry and the gains that I've had. Many, many gains. By the time I went to the West End in London, I was performing the Scottsboro Boys, and I had an Olivier nomination, and I was doing work that I thought was impactful and important. And then I would go back to New York, and then I would just, like, be pounding the pavement again, almost like, getting roles that I felt, like, didn't match what I can give. I didn't have a lot of access or real agency, so. And then I had, like, countless auditions that were sort of meaningless or felt like we're just going into the void. No one was seeing my tapes, and I was just. I was just really exhausted to the point where I just sort of broke down. I was at the gym, and I'll never forget this. I just, like, started sobbing after this one other huge no.

[Tonya Moseley]

You received a phone call.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah, yeah, I received a phone call from my agent about, you know, everybody needs a yes. And I was like, well, this is my yes. I had, like, eight auditions this week. I need a yes. My finances need a yes. My husband needs a yes. My soul needs a yes. And literally, she called me, called me up and just said, everyone loved you. Producers loved you. Directors loved you. It was an audition for Boardwalk Empire.

[Tonya Moseley]

Boardwalk Empire.

[Colman Domingo]

Boardwalk Empire. And it was to play a maitre d or something, a host, a show host or something at Chalky's Bar, played by Michael K. Williams. But it was his bar. And I thought, well, this has to be the one. I can see myself in this world. This is great. They need a song and dance, man. I sang, I danced. I wore the tuxedo in the audition. They all loved me. And then she said, but. But a researcher raised his hand and said, well, you know, all maitre d's and hosts at the time were light skinned. And it wasn't even about the light skinned part of it. That's not what I was angry about. I literally yelled into the phone. I said, they knew what I looked like before I got there. I feel like everyone's effing with me. And people didn't respect the time or energy that an artist put into something. I thought, like, well, this business is gonna kill me. It's gonna break my heart. And my heart was getting very broken. So I was making steps to leave. And then my angel, one of my best friends, Daniel Braker, he says, who's an extraordinary actor in his own right. We started in Passing Strange together on Broadway. He said, you know, my manager has been wanting to meet with you for years. I'm like, oh, no, I don't want that anymore. I'm good. I'm good. He said, just think of it. Just meet with them. I was like, fine. And I went into this meeting and I was as begrudging as possible. I had my arms folded. I know it. I was not the effervescent me. I was like, this is what I do. This is what I've done. I could do this. I don't know. You tell me. They said, oh, we'd love to work with you. I said, well, okay, well, how about this? Why don't we give it six months and we'll see where we go. Within six months, I booked Fear of the Walking Dead and another series. And then I chose Fear of the Walking Dead. And that show gave me a new footing in my career. I had a steady job on television. It gave me some more financial stability. It gave me a character that I was pouring myself into. I became a director on that show and a producer on that show, and I had more footing and I had more. I had that. Yes. To keep going.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, you're definitely in your harvest stage right now, and you're so busy. You have so many projects and you have so many projects ahead. Do you feel like you're in a rush to get as much done as possible? You brought up your age many times during our conversation.

[Colman Domingo]

You know, I bring up my age sort of as a lovely marker because I really love being in my 50s. I never knew that that would be the case.

[Tonya Moseley]

But you would love it. Cause we're told not to.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

I love it.

[Colman Domingo]

Yeah. You know people, oh, you're getting older or whatever. I'm like, no, I feel like it's so cool and it's so good, you know? So I think that I'M not rushing. The funny thing is I feel like, listen, I've told people this and they don't believe it. I said I'm gonna do a lot more between now and about I'm saying 61, 62, and then I'm gonna live a bit softer in a way because I feel like I've been building so much. I think that maybe I'm curious about evolving. So I don't feel like that I'm rushing anything. I feel like if anything, right now I'm taking more time and being really I'm being very conscious about time with people. Sometimes I have to rethink because I will say yes first and then I'll have to reset and say, do I really want to do that?

[Tonya Moseley]

And that's what you can do when you're in your 50s.

[Colman Domingo]

When you're 50s, you're like, I can do that because I'm fine with myself. And I'm not responsible about the way a person feels about it either. Someone told me that, which is very cool. But she was 60 and she told me that she said she was taking me around this plantation actually in Georgia, and we were talking about life. And she says, you know, how old are you? I said, oh, I'm 50, whatever it was. And she says, oh. She said, you're in your storytelling season. I said, oh, yeah? She said, yeah, when you turn about 60 like me, you move into your truth telling season. I said, what's that? She says, well, if you don't want to do something, you just say no. I said, just no. She said. She said, you don't have a qualifier no. But she says no because it's not my responsibility, by the way. I make another person feel if I say it with love, but I'm honoring myself with love and grace, I say no, and that's it. So I think I decided to move into that chapter a little earlier.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

Right.

[Tonya Moseley]

It's now the new 60 is the new 54.

[Colman Domingo]

It's the new 50 and 54. And to be in the truth telling season.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, Colman Domingo, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Colman Domingo]

You're so very welcome, Tanya. This has really been wonderful. Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Colman Domingo is nominated for two Emmys for his performances in Euphoria and the Four Seasons. Coming up, classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz reviews a newly remastered album of Handel arias sung by Lorraine Hunt Liberson. This is FRESH air. History is intriguing, but unlike the present, it can feel far off. On NPR's Throughline, we bring it back to light and put you in the middle of it. Go inside the stories from then that shaped the world we live in now. Find NPR's Throughline wherever you get your podcasts,

[Colman Domingo]

the midterms are coming. And if you think the news cycle feels intense now, just wait until the fall. That's why summer is a perfect time to make sure your news diet is calibrated. I'm Ian Martinez. On Up first, we unpack the three biggest stories every morning so you can stay informed and get on with your day in fewer than 15 minutes. Follow or subscribe to up first today Wherever you get podcasts.

[Tonya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR. FRESH AIR's classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz has often spoke about the American mezzo soprano Lorraine Hunt Liberson, who died 20 years ago at 52. A new release of a remastered recording of her singing Handel arias reminded Lloyd, to his embarrassment that that the very first time he heard her, he wasn't sure how special she was.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

Critics don't always get it right. The first first time I heard a soprano named Lorraine hunt back in 1984, she was not yet married to composer Peter Liberson. She played a featured role in an early Mozart opera. I had known her before only as a violist in the orchestra of Boston's Emanuel Church. My critic colleagues were totally knocked out by her. But while I was impressed by her rich, sonorous voice, I thought her phrasing was a little stiff and without much character. I didn't keep that opinion for long. A year later, she was in the landmark Peter Sellers production of Handel's Julius Caesar. She played the son of Pompey, whom Caesar has beheaded. The two arias of rage that Hunt sang are among the most memorable arias Handel ever wrote, but I'd never heard them sung with such torment and such rage. She was hair raising, and until she died at only 52, at the height of her career, she never failed to be hair raising, whether in comedy or tragedy, in Bach, Handel or Mozart, or as some of the great operatic heroines, a fierce but tragic Carmen and Berlioz's noble and tragic Queen Dido to the blowsy yet poignant Myrtle Wilson in the world premiere of John Harbison's the Great Gatsby, the role of her Met debut. Near the end of her life, she was singing her husband Peter Liberson's haunting Neruda songs composed for her. She seemed to take in and explore every aspect of a role and a score. Her recordings are still being reissued. The latest is a beautifully remastered version of an album called Handel Arias mainly arias from one of the composer's last oratorios, Theodora, his only dramatic work set in early Christian times and in his lifetime, one of his biggest flops. Hunt Lieberson sings the role of the Christian martyr. Theodora's solicitous friend Irene, who has some of Handel's most spiritual music,

[Colman Domingo]

Steps the.

[Tonya Moseley]

Shades of light so from virtuous to is well born.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

This album also includes one of Handel's most famous arias, Ombra My Never was shade so dear, surely the greatest love song ever written to a tree. J?

[Colman Domingo]

Ra.

[Lloyd Schwartz]

Sa. I was lucky to be able to hear Lorraine Hunt Liberson in person. It's tragic that she was with us for such a short time, yet she's almost as miraculous on this recording as she was on stage.

[Tonya Moseley]

Lloyd Schwartz reviewed a newly remastered album of Handel arias sung by Lorraine Hunt Liberson, accompanied by Harry Bickett and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. Lloyd's new book of poems is called Artur Schnabel and Joseph Sighetti Play Mozart at The Frick Collection, April 4, 1948 and Other Poems. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with director Destin Daniel Cretton about his new film Brand New Day, or with journalist Gil Duran about the circle of Silicon Valley billionaires who feel democracy is in their way and that they should be governing, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews and to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free [e-mail] fresh air. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producers Molly C.V. nesper, Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley. The fatal shooting of a teenager at a protest in Seattle has gone unsolved for six years.

[Colman Domingo]

This is open in your face. How are there no answers?

[Tonya Moseley]

Our investigation has uncovered new evidence and witnesses who say they've never talked to police.

[Colman Domingo]

Did police ever call you? Not once.

[Tonya Moseley]

Listen to We Keep Us Safe, a new True Crime series on the embedded podcast from NPR this week on.

[Colman Domingo]

Wait, Wait, don't tell Me. We talk to legendary Oscar and Emmy winning icon Sally Field about her starring

[Lloyd Schwartz]

role in the 60s television series the Flying Nun.

[Tonya Moseley]

I was on a 50 foot crane and they would fly me into the side of a building and I'm like, spider Man.

[Colman Domingo]

Don't miss our full conversation and the

[Tonya Moseley]

rest of our games.

[Colman Domingo]

Listen to the Wait wait, Don't Tell Me. Podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.