Lee Sung Jin on the breakthrough that led him to ‘BEEF’

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – Lee Sung Jin on the Breakthrough that Led Him to ‘BEEF’ (July 23, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging Fresh Air episode, host Tonya Mosley sits down with Lee Sung Jin—the creator, writer, and director of Netflix’s acclaimed series Beef, which just landed 16 Emmy nominations for its second season. The conversation explores the real-life inspirations behind Beef, generational differences around relationships and conflict, class and upward mobility, Lee’s journey as an immigrant and creative, how he channels personal experience into his work, and the nuanced dynamics of being a “first” in Hollywood. The tone is candid, thoughtful, and at turns, humorous and deeply personal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Inspiration for Season 2: Generational Divide in Relationships

• A Neighborhood Argument Sparks the Premise
  • Lee describes hearing an older couple arguing in his neighborhood and recounting it to friends. Young friends (20s) were appalled and suggested calling 911; friends in their 40s related more. This generational split inspired the main conflict in Beef Season 2, exploring what happens when the private lives of one generation collide with the expectations of another.
    • “I was trying to examine why that is. And I'm like, oh, no, it's 'cause we're old now.” —Lee Sung Jin (03:22)
• Metaphor of the Country Club:
  • While house-sitting at a luxurious country club, Lee saw that "almost all the workers were millennial and Gen Z, and almost all the members were Boomers or older," which became a metaphor for current generational and economic divisions.
  • “No matter how hard the millennials and Gen Z workers work, they're never going to get to be members.” —Lee (06:09)

Personal Experiences Embedded in the Series

• Emergency Room Episode
  • Episode 4 is based on Lee’s own 10+ hour ER visit, which happened during a writer’s block. He integrated specific observations ("almost every extra you see is someone that I saw and took note of," 09:17), and the character’s confusion over deductibles mirrored his own in his 20s.
  • “It just truly felt like a modern Hieronymous Bosch hell painting.” —Lee (10:23)
• The Origin of Season 1’s Road Rage
  • Season 1’s story was rooted in Lee’s real-life road rage event where he followed another driver for 30 minutes through L.A. traffic, only to realize the mutual misunderstanding and subjectivity of anger.
  • "We're in our literal mechanical bubbles...completely unaware of what the other person is thinking or feeling.” —Lee (11:44)

Themes of Anger, Assimilation, and the Immigrant Experience

• Parental Influence & Inner Voice
  • Lee reflects on research that our inner voice is shaped by early caregivers. His parents, Korean immigrants—his father, an engineering professor and Samsung’s first supercomputer designer, and his mother, a musician—conveyed a results-driven, “prove your worth by achievement” approach.
  • “The way they spoke to me makes sense with my inner monologue: I am very results driven.” —Lee (19:12)
• Naming and Identity
  • Lee discusses adopting "Sunny" as a childhood nickname to avoid bullying in Minnesota and returning to his Korean name as an adult after a coffee shop incident reignited old feelings of shame.
  • "I'm a grown adult, why am I slouched over like I'm in sixth grade again?” —Lee (37:16)

Comedy Roots and Breakthroughs

• Early Career Struggles
  • After UPenn, Lee tried music internships, survived on free food at NYC events, then slept on a hospital cot in LA for over a year while trying to break into writing.
  • “I thought I was going to be a working writer and eventually buy a bed...just nothing happened. I slept on it for probably a year and a half.” —Lee (26:24)
• Getting His Break
  • Landing a job on It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia after the 2008 writers’ strike was a major turning point.
  • Writes that "comedy came from instinctively mimicking the prevailing styles in writers’ rooms, not from a 'soulful place.'"
  • “I was just speaking in tongues comedically.” —Lee (29:24)

Mental Health, Racism, and Creative Motivation

• Strain of Writing in ‘White Spaces’
  • Lee recounts a formative, painful incident: receiving a photo from a co-worker mocking East Asians in a writers’ room (2009). He keeps the image to fuel his work ethic.
  • “That’s the thing I have favorited in my phone...that’s what people thought of me when I was starting.” —Lee (31:36)
• Navigating Survival and Shame
  • Both Lee and Tonya reflect on the necessary self-effacing or passive responses to workplace racism in earlier decades, seeing their endurance as the ‘baby steps’ that made today’s more assertive culture possible.
  • “We needed the baby steps of carving out the past...in that context, that is the best that most of us could do.” —Lee (34:41)
• Personal Mental Health Struggles as Creative Fuel
  • Lee’s personal mental health crisis in 2013 (December 13, 2013) led him to therapy for the first time. He references “rock bottom can be your trampoline” as both a line from the show and his life.
  • “That rock bottom, for sure, was my trampoline.” —Lee (30:30)

Being a First and What It Means

• Awards and Representation
  • Lee is the first Asian TV creator nominated for writing, directing, and executive producing at the Emmys. He admits he hasn’t yet processed what it means, preferring to focus on storytelling and his new daughter.
  • “It’s nice to feel seen and accepted. I think that’s all anyone’s trying to do.” —Lee (39:51)
• Parental Critique & Gratitude
  • Lee’s parents (now proud Beef superfans) still offer notes, like his dad’s unsolicited advice to cut a scene after the show was released.
  • “Dad, it's on the platform. I can't go back and edit it now. That is truly unhelpful.” —Lee (39:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On generational anger:
  • "We're starting to feel and do things that the previous generation did for the first time." —Lee (03:52)
• On country clubs as a metaphor:
  • “That's a ... analogy for 2026 if I've ever seen one.” —Lee (06:09)
• On the ER episode:
  • “It just truly felt like a modern Hieronymus Bosch hell painting.” —Lee (10:23)
• On his creative drive:
  • “That drive for excellence, this unrelenting work ethic to push yourself past your breaking point...I don’t think I can get through a season of Beef without that.” —Lee (19:47)
• On coping with racism in the industry:
  • “I was the diversity hire. That’s the most anyone expected out of me.” —Lee (32:00)
• On reclaiming his real name:
  • "I'm a grown adult, why am I slouched over like I'm in sixth grade again?" —Lee (37:16)
• On the significance of his Emmy nominations:
  • “I think that’s all anyone’s trying to do: feel seen and accepted.” —Lee (39:51)
• On his father’s feedback:
  • “Dad, it's on the platform. I can't go back and edit it now. That is truly unhelpful.” —Lee (39:53)

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Key Timestamps

• [00:14] Introduction to Beef and inspiration for Season 2
• [03:22] Discussion of generational views on conflict and private life
• [06:09] Metaphor of country club as class/generational divide
• [09:17] Episode 4, emergency room experience, and its real-life roots
• [10:23] “Hieronymus Bosch hell painting” description of ER
• [11:43] Lee’s real-life road rage story that inspired Season 1
• [13:10] Lee’s youth, Korean church, musical background
• [16:15] On inner monologue and parental influence
• [19:10] On academic pressure and family expectations
• [23:02] Early career struggles in New York and LA
• [26:23] Sleeping on a hospital cot in LA
• [29:24] On adapting to “UCB-style” comedy vs. authentic voice
• [30:27] Hitting “rock bottom” and its influence on Beef
• [31:36] Using a racist writers' room photo as creative fuel
• [34:41] Reflecting on survival tactics in racist working environments
• [37:16] Changing names for assimilation, reclaiming identity
• [39:51] On being a “first” and processing recognition
• [39:53] Parental feedback post-Emmys

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Tone & Conclusion

The episode blends candid, insightful revelations with moments of wry humor and deep introspection. Lee Sung Jin emerges as an artist whose work is inseparable from lived experiences—navigating the intergenerational, cultural, and economic pressures of modern America, and always probing what lies “underneath” the surface of daily life.

The interview is both a masterclass in how personal pain and curiosity can fuel creative breakthroughs and a moving reflection on identity, migration, and the relentless drive to be seen and understood.

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For further listening

• Beef Season 2 is streaming now on Netflix.
• For more interviews, subscribe to Fresh Air or check out their newsletter.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

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[Tonya Mosley]

this is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley, and my guest today is creator, writer and director Lee Sung Jin. The second season of His Netflix series Beef just earned 16 Emmy nominations, including nominations for writing, directing and executive producing. Lee says he writes what he knows and what he keeps returning to are the pressures people carry but rarely talk about money, class and the anger we sometimes swallow to get through the day. The idea for season two began when Lee was walking through his neighborhood and heard a couple arguing with each other inside of their home. Later, when he told the story, his younger friends were horrified. Did you call 91 1? They asked. Friends his own age had almost the opposite reaction. They shrugged. Lee couldn't stop thinking about that split, what it revealed about what different generations expect from relationships and what happens when the private lives of one generation collide with the values of another. That became the new season of Beef. Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan play a married couple whose ugliest private fight is secretly recorded by two young employees

[Narrator/Reviewer]

played

[Tonya Mosley]

by Cailee Spaeny and Charles Melton. The next morning, Austin comes over and offers Mulligan's character a safe place if she needs it, and she tells him that he's misunderstood the situation. How old are you?

[Lee Sung Jin]

29.

[Tonya Mosley]

And how long have you and what's her name?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Ashley.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ashley. How long have you and Ashley been going out?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Year and a half.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Wow.

[Lee Sung Jin]

So early.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, you've got a good fight coming. And when it does come, you two are gonna be stronger for it.

[Lee Sung Jin]

If I may say this, ma', am, I don't think that's how relationships work.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

All right.

[Tonya Mosley]

All I'll say is that all the couples I know that last, they've really had at it. You know, it's actually the ones that don't, where someone's usually hiding something. I mean, not to say that that's your situation with Ashley.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

Ashley.

[Tonya Mosley]

But the bad does have to come out somewhere.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Do you understand?

[Tonya Mosley]

The first season of Beef, starring Ali Wong and Steven Yeun, also grew out of a moment Lee couldn't let go of, a road rage encounter that ended with him following another driver for nearly half an hour. That season won eight Emmys, including Outstanding Limited Series. Before creating Beef, Lee spent years writing for comedies including It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Silicon Valley. Lee Sung Jin welcome to FRESH Air. And congratulations.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[Tonya Mosley]

And I'm just so curious, what was it about your friend's reaction to those people fighting in your neighborhood that really sparked this for you?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Well, you know, to be honest, the actual neighbors are older. They're probably boomers, I think. I don't know their exact age, but when I was talking to friends and writers, it was interesting that the 40 some year olds were all defending the boomers. And I was trying to examine why that is. And I'm like, oh, no, it's cause we're old now we know what it's

[Tonya Mosley]

like to be in a relationship.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. And I thought that, oh, wow, like elder millennials haven't really, hadn't really seen characters wrestle with the fact that, oh, we're starting to feel and do things that the previous generation did for the first time. And, you know, ask someone who's 44, that felt very potent and relevant. And so, yeah, like, it just kind of sparked something in me.

[Tonya Mosley]

I also wondered, is there something very specific about midlife at this time period for millennials in particular? Because in this series, Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan, they play Josh and Lindsay and they're a married couple who Josh actually works for this really swanky country club. And then the two, they also work there. Josh has a little bit more power because he's a manager, but all of them kind of don't have power. But they begin throughout the course of the series to battle against each other instead of the folks who are the ones with the money and power who are part of the country club, you know.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

It's just interesting.

[Lee Sung Jin]

That was very much intended, you know, I had the privilege of, you know, getting to use a country club for a month because I was house sitting for one of my best friends who, you know, we've been friends since our mid-20s, were broke and poor together, temped in random places in la. And he recently came into a lot of money in tech over the last few years. And so he became a member of Montecito Country Club. And I was house sitting for him for like a month. And he allowed me to use his membership while I was there. And, you know, like, I kind of turned my nose up at it being like, that's crazy the amount of money you're paying for this place.

[Tonya Mosley]

Cause how much?

[Lee Sung Jin]

It's a 300k initiation fee that's just to apply.

[Tonya Mosley]

Not even your yearly dues.

[Lee Sung Jin]

No, no. So then it's dues, all this stuff. And you know, you're encouraged to donate, and then once you enter the club, it's not like it's like a free buffet. You pay for everything, and everything's, you know, extraordinarily costly.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

And.

[Lee Sung Jin]

And I found myself three days into using it where I'm like, can I see an application, please? And so, yeah, while I was there, I was observing that probably most of the members are like, Boomer, Silent Gen from my estimation. And then almost all the workers were millennial and Gen Z. And I thought, well, that's a, you know, analogy for 2026 if I've ever seen one, where no matter how hard the millennials and Gen Z workers work, they're never going to get to be members. They're not going to be able to pay that 300k initiation fee. And that felt like an appropriate metaphor for, I think, how a lot of people are feeling today.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know, did you ever feel comfortable in those places?

[Lee Sung Jin]

You know, I think humans have this really weird ability to hedonically adapt so fast, you know, And I think, like, yeah, you enter there and you see this opulence and just everything's perfect. The grass is perfectly manicured. You know, there's, you know, for every member, like, you know, 12 staff, like, you know, eyeing you and seeing your every need. And then you're like, oh, this is wild that anyone lives this way. And then, yeah, you. Then you do it a couple times, and then you expect it, and then you get upset when it doesn't happen. And that also is a theme that really hit home for me. And I thought it'd be interesting to have a Gen Z couple that's starting at the very bottom. And you see slowly, over time, how easy it is to become the generation before you that you were judging and criticizing the whole time.

[Tonya Mosley]

Mm. There's a particular episode that also almost comes directly from your life, and it's episode four.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ashley and Austin, played by Cailee Spaeny and Charles Melton, spent almost the entire episode wrapped in an emergency room waiting room. And Charles Melton speaks first.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Okay, we're in the system. Shouldn't be too long.

[Tonya Mosley]

Thanks for taking care of me. I love you so much.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I love you.

[Tonya Mosley]

Thank God for health insurance.

[Lee Sung Jin]

She said you have a Super high deductible 5,000. Oh, wow.

[Tonya Mosley]

We can deduct $5,000. What if it costs less? Did they give us a difference?

[Lee Sung Jin]

It's kind of the opposite.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Huh?

[Lee Sung Jin]

We pay up to 5,000.

[Tonya Mosley]

Then what is health insurance they cover

[Lee Sung Jin]

after we hit the deductible.

[Tonya Mosley]

Then why do they call it a deductible? You deduct.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I know, it's a broken system for sure. Right.

[Tonya Mosley]

Why is it called a deductible?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Right, exactly. Yeah. Those were thoughts I had in my 20s, you know.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

You actually spent 10 plus hours in a hospital emergency room. This came from real life.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. In the middle of the writing season, you know, in a weird way, was serendipitous in the sense that we were sort of stuck narratively. I think we had written three episodes and, you know, not really sure what would happen next. And oddly enough, kind of in the middle of that, there was a sort of emergency that led to, I want to say, like a 10 to 11 hour stint at a local LA hospital. And, you know, it's one of the. One of the nicer, probably the nicest local LA hospital as well. And so to basically experience almost everything that happened in the episode. You know, from all the waiting in the lobby, you know, almost every extra you see is someone that I saw and took note of. You know, that teenage kid with the bandage head and sunglasses, you know, the druggie going through withdrawal, vomiting, you know, it just truly felt like a modern Hieronymous Bosch hell painting.

[Tonya Mosley]

All right, I gotta talk just for a minute about season one because we gotta talk about this road rage situation that also came from a real thing that happened to you. You were in a parking lot, you got into it with somebody, you started following them for quite a distance.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Sure.

[Tonya Mosley]

And my question about this. Cause you tell this story often, especially during the first run of the first season, what would you have done if that person had stopped?

[Lee Sung Jin]

I probably would have just sped away. I mean, to clarify, the only reason it was such a long sort of stalking, let's call it, is because I was getting on the 10, one of the main highways in LA and it was bumper to bumper traffic. And so what started very heated. Then eventually you're just sort of. It's not like the movies or the show where you're chasing, you're just sort of like stuck. And then like 30 minutes go by and then you're like, okay, I'm not that angry anymore. And then, you know, but then it was sort of fortuitous. On that day, we were both going to the same exit, which was on the opposite side of town.

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay.

[Lee Sung Jin]

So in my car I'm just, I've lost interest. I'm listening to music, you know, I'm just like, kind of like in a better mood. And I could tell that in his car he was like this psychopath is following me across bumper to bumper traffic through all of la. And that is what fascinated me, is that we're in our literal mechanical bubbles and trapped in our own subjectivity, completely unaware of what the other person is thinking or feeling.

[Tonya Mosley]

You said that there's a piece of you in every character. And I want to talk about the character Dany for a minute because he's full of rage, but rage is really only half of him. For the very first episode, he is failing at work, he's carrying his family, he's smiling throughout all of it. And then in episode three, at one of his lowest moments, he walks into this church and there is music playing, they are singing. And it's actually the church that his ex girlfriend and her husband worship. And the husband is the pastor. And as the congregation begins singing, Danny falls apart. He starts to sing with them and then he gets kind of like the Holy Ghost and he sings through his tears. And you were part of a church that was similar to this. You're a musical person. You played the violin for many years. Did you play for church?

[Lee Sung Jin]

I did, yeah. Growing up, I attended. I moved around a lot, and

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

I

[Lee Sung Jin]

moved mostly up and down the Midwest and every state in the Midwest. The Korean church is sort of the hub of where just all Koreans and even if you're not Christian, that's just become like the social fabric of the Korean community. So I attended Korean church my whole life. In junior high and high school, I started leading praise team, singing and playing guitar. You know, I think especially in your teenage years, religion becomes a means as to how you're sort of trying to grapple with these existential questions. You may not have the language yet to really talk about these existential questions as necessarily I am now in my writing, but the spirit of it was there. And I think that's why I think now I'm in my writing constantly, sort of approaching it from almost a spiritual standpoint, because I think from a young age I just had this feeling that this material world isn't really all there is. There's gotta be something underneath it. And if there isn't, then how do I wrestle with that?

[Tonya Mosley]

I read that you pretended to have the Holy Ghost at one point. Yes.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. That was at a. It was when I lived in San Antonio and then.

[Tonya Mosley]

And how old were you?

[Lee Sung Jin]

About too old. I was like a senior in high school. Yeah. Yeah. There was like a summer retreat in rural Texas and it was kind of like a Pentecostal church. Even though the church I attended was Not Pentecostal. And it was extreme. Like, you stood in a line and the pastor comes and touches your forehead, and people fell over, fainted, started speaking in tongues. And then it's coming up to me, and I'm getting nervous, and then the hand hits your forehead, and you almost convince yourself to start speaking in tongues.

[Tonya Mosley]

Did you feel it? Did you have an emotional release at all or cry or just feel within you?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Not in that moment. I've definitely had those moments like Danny's, at various points of worship, but in that moment, it felt very performative and almost like I was an imposter, you know, like I'm looking at everyone else and like, that seems genuine. And then here I am, like, man, why can't I speak in tongues? You know, to not get the Rosetta Stone for that one.

[Tonya Mosley]

There is something that you say almost in all of your interviews. You talk about this research that you read, and I had to go digging for it, and I actually found it, and you were pretty accurate with it. But you have mentioned this scientific belief that our inner voices are formed by how our caregivers talked to us when we were small.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes.

[Tonya Mosley]

And ever since I heard you say that, I've been rethinking everything. And I wanted to know how your parents talked to you.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I'm working through a lot of that in therapy, actually, right now. I love my parents, and I can't imagine their young adulthood moving to a foreign country.

[Tonya Mosley]

Immigrants, right?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Immigrants. Not really knowing the language. My dad went to grad school at University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign, and I moved here when I was nine months old with my mom and dad in. Slept in the dorm. You know, it was a dorm room that we all lived in. And I think that a lot of immigrant parents, and it's not just mine, their parenting in that era, the 80s, was like, to provide to help your child assimilate and to really make sure that this move was worth it, that you're trying to give your child a better life than the one that you had. And so I think, you know, there it's. I think it's a different love language than maybe what, like, modern Western culture is used to, where, you know, now it's like, gentle parenting. And you gotta, like, you know, accept the child as they are and kind of continually make them feel safe and supported through, like, words of affirmation.

[Tonya Mosley]

What did your parents do?

[Lee Sung Jin]

My dad was a professor of electrical and computer engineering, and he then worked for Samsung, which is why we moved back to Korea. And he actually designed Samsung's first supercomputer, which is extraordinary. And my mom, she was going to be a classical pianist, but then gave it all up to raise my sister and me. So she ended up later in life. Once my sister went to college, she got her master's in music. So I was able to fulfills her dreams in that way.

[Tonya Mosley]

Highly accomplished people.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes, they are.

[Tonya Mosley]

So you were a straight A student, almost perfect sat or maybe you did and played the violin. I mean, highly, highly, you know, just academically superior.

[Lee Sung Jin]

That was my parents for sure. It was a lot of your whole childhood was like, you know, preparing to try and get into an Ivy League school. And so it was hours of violin practice every day. You know, I played tennis. I, you know, was, you know, self studying for the PSATs. I remember in like, I want to say like sixth grade. And. Yeah. And it worked. I got into an Ivy League school

[Tonya Mosley]

and University of Pennsylvania.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. So, you know, I think the way they spoke to me makes sense with my inner monologue. I am very like, you know, results driven. And I just saw the Novak Djokovic trailer that came out this week and hearing him talk about like tennis and stuff, I think the trailer's supposed to highlight like, oh, like, look how like how harsh he is on himself. And to me I'm just like, oh, that's me.

[Tonya Mosley]

What did you see in him? And yourself?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Just this drive for to prove everyone wrong to this drive for excellence, this unrelenting work ethic to push yourself past your breaking point. And I think that's something that I actually am glad that was instilled in me at a young age because I don't think I can like get through a season of Beef without that without that work ethic, you know.

[Tonya Mosley]

Our guest today is the creator, writer and director of Beef on Netflix. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Mosley]

fresh One year ago, Congress eliminated over a billion dollars in funding for public media. Yet we the people, haven't backed down. When you donate to the independent nonprofits that make up the NPR network, we hold the powerful to account together. It's the kind of journalism democracy requires that we the public must protect. Join the community of people who power this [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley, and my guest today is Lee Sung Jin, the creator of the Netflix anthology series Beef. The new season just earned 16 Emmy nominations, three of them for Lee himself for writing, directing and as executive producer. It's his second time nominated in all three categories, a first in Emmy history for an Asian television creator. Lee is also co writing Marvel's upcoming X Men film. And before Beef, he spent nearly two decades writing for comedies like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Silicon Valley. Your family moved a lot. You all moved. As you mentioned, you lived up and down the Midwest in Texas and then up Minnesota. You go to UPenn, you graduate in economics. Is that right? And then you decide, I don't want to do this anymore. And you move to New York. And the first night you get there, your car is like, people steal everything except for an Aladdin dvd. What were you planning to do there?

[Lee Sung Jin]

I thought maybe music. You know, I applied to so many music internships because I was so musical that that didn't really pan out. I remember there was this one forum back when Internet forums were more of a thing where Jack Ponti, who is the guitarist for Bon Jovi, had just started a record label and he posted that he was looking to hire interns. And I remember replying on that forum, sent my resume, and he was based in New Jersey. And I would drive out and I would just like box CDs and think from promotional materials. And I was able to leverage asking like, hey, I don't mind being an intern, but is it okay if I create business cards of my own where I can like have my title be like director of research? And he was cool with it. So then I remember printing those, and in New York, I didn't know anybody, so I was so alone. Like, I'm not exaggerating When I say I did not have a friend. And so I would Google where like the free events were that night. You know, there'd be some like, you know, Conde Nast would be having some like release party at the Hermes store and I would go get dressed up in my one suit with my little self made business card. I would stand in line and I would sneak into the party and then I would eat the free food and that would be the dinner for my day because I was so poor. And then I would just like try to rub the elbows and hand out my business card to everybody. But like how brave you were. I think I was just desperate.

[Tonya Mosley]

Okay, so you, you become an NBC page, which is a program that you get to give tour to tourists and things through 30 Rock. And this really amazing thing happens while you're a page. The head of comedy sees something that you wrote and says like, you're super talented, gets you hooked up with an agent. You get an agent, you move to la. Things get so tough for you while you're in la, but you're still like, I'm going to do this. But at one point you're. It got so rough that you were sleeping on a hospital cot in a. Yeah. In a friend's apartment.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. You know, my then writing partner and I went with sort of the fanciest agent and who was like, you have to move out by upfronts. And so we gave our jobs two weeks notice and moved out here. And I didn't bring my bed because I was like, oh, I'm going to be like a working writer and I'll buy a bed eventually. And just nothing happened. Like, couldn't get the agent to return our calls, you know, didn't really go out for any meetings. And suddenly it dawned on me like, oh, I've made a huge mistake and had to start temping, you know, and I, in the meantime, I needed a place to sleep. So my then roommate's girlfriend worked at a hospital and she brought home a cot for me to sleep on. I slept on it for probably a year and a half.

[Tonya Mosley]

A year and a half?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't recommend you'll have like time, back issues. And was doing that for probably almost two years. The writer strike also happened in 2008. Yep. And then right after the writer strike, just so fortunate that Rob, Charlie and Glenn at It's Always Sunny, I think they read a sample and asked for a meeting. And the meeting only lasted like 10 minutes. And I thought I for sure didn't get it. But then that changed my life.

[Tonya Mosley]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lee Sung Jin, creator of the Netflix anthology series Beef. He's up for three Emmys this year for writing, directing and as executive producer of the show's new season, which stars Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Mosley]

fresh this is FRESH AIR. And today I'm talking with Lee Sung Jin, the Emmy winning creator, writer and director of the Netflix series Beef. Jin has said there's a part of him and each character in Beef, but he really identified with a character in the first season played by Steven Yeun named Danny, who was depressed and considered suicide. If you or someone you know is in crisis, the suicide hotline is available 247 call or text the number 988. When we left off, we were talking about the two decades before Beef, when Lee Sung Jin worked in the writing rooms of shows like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Silicon Valley and the Animated Series Tuca and Bertie. You got really good at what you call upright Citizens Brigade type comedy, which is like Tina Fey 30 Rock kind of zinger type things. And this is kind of like you were doing the thing that you knew would work, but it was over time. It wasn't necessarily you. You just got good at mimicking almost.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I mean, I was just speaking in tongues comedically.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes. I'm just looking around at everyone else speaking in tongues, doing these rapid fire jokes and I'm like, okay, let me do my version of that. But it did not come from a Very soulful place at all. And I think I ended up on a show for three years that I think for a variety of reasons, was very, very bad for my mental health. And I think when you are being stretched further and further away from who you really are, it's almost like a rubber band that's just stretching and stretching. You can feel it inside of you. You're like, this isn't me. This isn't me. And then at some point, it's gonna snap. And, you know, that's what happened after three years on that show, is I snapped. And that's when, you know, I kind of very, you know, it's. Where a lot of Danny comes from, is sort of my brushes with suicide.

[Tonya Mosley]

December 13, 2013.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up in the hospital. And, you know, there's this one thing that we wrote for Danny where he says he's talking to Paul, his younger brother, and he was like, you know, rock bottom can be your trampoline. And we wrote that as sort of a joke, but it is very true. And, yeah, that rock bottom, for sure was my trampoline. And started therapy for the very first time. Started really reexamining everything in my life. And, you know, it was time to clean up the messy room, for sure.

[Tonya Mosley]

One thing that was surprising to me about you, though, okay, that work ethic also includes you. You read the negative things about yourself a lot, like I do. Is it true that you might. There's something you might have penned, like a Reddit conversation or something like that. You go back to.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Well, there was a harrowing experience in a writer's room years ago, back in 2009, where I was. I think, yeah, I was the lone East Asian writer. And I'd gone to the bathroom, come back, and in my email, one of the writers, they'd taken a photo of him doing a caricature of an East Asian, where he was doing the slanty eyes, had kind of like pens as his buck teeth and, you know, writers laughing around him. And, you know, I just kind of laughed it off in the moment. You know, I don't think people. I don't think people really realize today how a lot of the racism that we speak of is so recent. You know, that is kind of like within a decade and a half, you know, And I. That's the thing I have favorited in my phone, where if I'm. If I feel like not working on a script or I feel like I've hit some sort of block, I will pull up my favorites folder scroll to that one and just be reminded, like, you know, that's what people thought of me when I was starting. You know, I was the diversity hire. That's the most anyone expected out of me.

[Tonya Mosley]

Why do you think that fuels you versus, like, praise?

[Lee Sung Jin]

I think I am a lot like Dany in season one in some regards. You know, I think I'm trying to get better about it. I think Danny is sort of my older self. You know, Danny's got a huge chip on his shoulder and he just feels like everyone is against him or, you know, expecting the least out of him. And so he has this just drive to prove everybody wrong. And I think that that definitely is in me. And I think it's probably an amalgamation of so many things.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know, there was something you said in an interview that I felt like, oh, I'm glad that someone has said it. Cause it's something I've been thinking about a lot for myself. You know, I spent a lot of my career, majority of my career in white spaces and being like the only person of color, black person at a table. And especially in that time period of like from 2000 to like 2010 or so, the crazy stuff was said. And I would. I would laugh. You know, I would laugh and I might say, no, that was wrong. But like, I wasn't. I was still like, participating, maybe fawning even a bit. And I do look back at myself and when I relay it to my children, I do think, like, why was I doing that? But it was hearing you talk about that and almost like as a survival mechanism, like you're of the thing. It just wasn't the time period to be assertive in saying, you know, even fear for going to hr, like, no, I'm not gonna be that person.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I cannot go to HR for things like that. And I think that's what I think a lot of the current generation sort of takes for granted sometimes it's like, you know, you look back in hindsight and there's judgment being like, why didn't you. You just took that. Or like, you know, and you're like, no, you don't understand. Like, this all had to happen the way it did to pave the way for now to be able to have a voice and like, stand up and like, be more vocal. But you, you. We needed the baby steps of like, sort of like, you know, carving out the. The past a little bit before you like, put down the cement. And, and. And so it's hard because, like, in the current climate, my self talk sometimes is Like, a shame that I did that. But then I'm. I'm trying to, like, remind myself, like. Yeah, in that context, like, that that is the best that most of us could do is just clock it, internalize it, ruminate on it, so that at the right time, we can express it and do something about it. But it's crazy, the stuff that we all endured. Absolutely insane.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, I'm glad you continued.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Thank you. Likewise.

[Tonya Mosley]

And you know, those writers rooms, those were the breaking points. But you spent a whole life. I mean, we're calling. I'm using the. The name Lee Sung Jin, but you went by Sunny.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes.

[Tonya Mosley]

You came up with his name, Sunny in like, sixth grade or something.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes, in sixth grade.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yeah, I just moved back from Korea. I went to elementary school in Korea, and I moved to Minnesota in sixth grade and, you know, had a bit of an accent. And, you know, my legal name is Sung Jin Lee. In Korea, you put the surname first. And the teacher, every day with attendance would just add consonants. Like, every day was a new, an extra one. I was like, I don't know where that Q came from, but. And I was just brutally made fun of. You know, I'm just bullied. And one day I was just staring at an assignment and, you know, that's that name section with the line. And I was just like, you know what? I'm tired of this. I'm gonna go by Sonny. And I just wrote S O N N Y. And I told my friends, my family, I'm like, this is what I go by now. And it just kind of stuck. And it stuck for a very long time. Like, I didn't go back to Lee Seung Jin until I think it was Tuca and Bertie. I was writing for an animated show on Netflix. I want to say that was maybe 2018 that I went back, but the reason I went back was just full circle where I was at that time, probably 37 years old. And I was getting coffee at a local coffee shop, and they call your name based on your credit card name. And again, just like the teacher in sixth grade butchered my name. And these two 30 something women next to me just started laughing. And I found myself hunched over, grabbing my coffee and food and just kind of slinking out of there, ashamed. And I was like, I'm a grown adult. Like, why am I doing that? Why am I slouched over, like, I'm in sixth grade again. And, you know, luckily, Lisa Hanawalt, whose show ran Tuka and Bertie, I think we had already done the credits for that show. And I explained to her the reason why I wanted to change it. And she graciously went through some extra steps to allow me to go. By Lee Sung Jin that year in

[Tonya Mosley]

September, you could be the most awarded Asian writer director in primetime me history. And I'm just curious if this is something that you have been really sitting with and thinking through, that you will make history. You have already made history to a certain extent. But all of these nominations put you in another category and you're being yourself doing it.

[Lee Sung Jin]

You know, I haven't really processed it. Yeah, I don't even think I've really processed season one awards, really. I honestly just two weeks ago, took them out of their boxes and put them on a shelf.

[Tonya Mosley]

Where had you been keeping them?

[Lee Sung Jin]

They'd just been sitting, like in storage. And so I haven't really processed any of it. And maybe I think that's a good thing. I think it can be kind of distracting, honestly, sometimes. I think there's just been a lot of things lately, you know, most of which is my daughter. Just seeing her is the most life affirming thing ever. And getting to the privilege of getting to tell stories and having it connect on a deeper level. So, yeah, I think in that sense it's nice to feel seen and accepted. I think that's all anyone's trying to do.

[Tonya Mosley]

What did your parents think of Beef?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Oh, they're so proud, you know, they're like the biggest Beef fans, you know. But at the same time, like, it's funny, like, my dad texted me after watching the show, the season, and he was like, he was like, you know, the last scene was too long. You should have cut here and probably shortened this shot and it would have had more impact. I was like, dad, it's on the platform. I can't go back and edit it now. That is truly unhelpful.

[Tonya Mosley]

But sometimes parents can give good advice.

[Lee Sung Jin]

They do. But you know, to that talk about the inner monologue, you know, it is. I am thankful for that because like on set, like, if it weren't for that inner monologue, a lot of things would be slipping through the cracks.

[Tonya Mosley]

Lee Seung Jin, thank you so much.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Thank you. Thanks so much.

[Tonya Mosley]

Lee Sung Jin is the creator of the Netflix series Beef. The latest season is up for 16 Emmy nominations. Coming up, TV critic David Biancooli reviews the Apple TV series Lucky. This is Fresh Air.

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fresh maybe you read the Odyssey in school and found that a pretty dry, dusty academic exercise, but the new movie adaptation is pure Hollywood. It's a gorgeous, spectacular take on the material that's bursting with big names like Matt Damon, Tom Holland, Anne Hathaway and Zendaya. We'll tell you why you should check it out on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen via the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tonya Mosley]

This is FRESH air. Marissa Stapley's crime novel Lucky was featured five years ago as a pick for actress Reese Witherspoon's Book Club. Now Apple TV presents a new seven part crime drama based on the novel, and Witherspoon is one of its executive producers. Anya Taylor Joy of the Queen's Gambit, stars in the title role, and the series features some very impressive co stars. Our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

The new Apple TV series Lucky, is a crime drama that starts in mid caper and almost dares you to keep up. The title character, Lucky, is a very shrewd, resourceful con woman. She's played by Anya Taylor Joy, who showed just as much fiery intelligence as the chess prodigy in the Queen's Gambit and in several standout roles since then. When we meet Lucky, she's out on the town in Las Vegas at Caesar's palace, celebrating with her husband, Carrie, played by Drew Starkey. They're celebrating because they've just absconded with almost $10 million in cash, gotten a room at the casino and made plans to leave the country the next morning. But their crime is complicated because of some respective parental issues. Lucky's father, who's now in federal prison, skimmed that money from a powerful criminal family. He told Lucky where the money was hidden and to go get it. All her life, Lucky had been coached by her father to con people and trust no one, like Tatum o' Neill in Paper Moon. That's her issue, her husband's issue, the crime family from whom they stole the money Are his parents a ruthless couple determined to recover the money for themselves. The night Lucky and Carrie grab the money and check into their room, he's happy, but she's fidgeting with a cigarette lighter and obviously nervous.

[Lee Sung Jin]

You kept your dad's lighter?

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Yes.

[Lee Sung Jin]

You okay?

[Tonya Mosley]

I'll see you again tomorrow.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Hey, come on. Come on, come on, come on. The hard part's over. We pulled it off.

[Tonya Mosley]

I don't know. Something feels off.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Well, it's because you're hardwired to feel that way.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yes, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Hey, look, everything is going according to plan.

[Tonya Mosley]

Until it isn't.

[Lee Sung Jin]

You know what I think? You know what I'm gonna say.

[Tonya Mosley]

Mm.

[Lee Sung Jin]

You gotta get them out of your head.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah, maybe.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

What's he saying?

[Tonya Mosley]

There's something I'm not seeing.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

That lighter, by the way, is a recurring motif in this series more than once. It's the secret weapon used by Lucky to get out of a tough situation. And the sound of the lighter being flicked even opens the theme song for this series. A new song written and performed by Fiona Apple. That's one of the most energetic and perfectly suited TV theme songs since the Sopranos. And its energy is appropriate because the first half of the first episode of Lucky rolls out like one long chase sequence. Lucky was right. There was something she wasn't seeing. And she soon finds herself on the run. She's pursued by a steely and single minded FBI agent. Reminiscent of Tommy Lee Jones pursuing Harrison Ford in the Fugitive. Except this agent is a woman played by ingenue Ellis Taylor. She was unforgettable in Lovecraft country and is very memorable in this too. Here she is descending upon Caesar's palace to begin the hunt.

[Tonya Mosley]

Mr. Barr, I'm special Agent Rand. We spoke on the phone.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes, Agent Rand.

[Tonya Mosley]

So this is Agent Cruz. I'm gonna need you to take him to your security, let him have access to your CCTV, facial recognition system, everything for the last 24 hours.

[Lee Sung Jin]

We have strict limitations on the use of that software.

[Tonya Mosley]

Says who?

[Lee Sung Jin]

Says the state of Nevada. We can only access it to detect and identify known cheats. And those who have committed gaming crimes will cross chronic casino property. Well, then you know Cruz.

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Yes, ma'.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

Am.

[Tonya Mosley]

I want footage from those cameras there, everything from 4pm yesterday. I want a room number in five minutes. If Mr. Barr or any of his employees give you any problems, handcuff him and put a in the back of the van.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Yes, ma'.

[Tonya Mosley]

Am. Thank you, gentlemen.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Ready?

[Narrator/Reviewer]

Watching Agent Rand and Lucky track and evade each other is great fun. Agent Rand is a force of nature. And Taylor Joyce Lucky is TV's toughest, smartest female fugitive since Juno Temple's dot on season five of Fargo. Agent Rand and Lucky could carry this story alone, but about halfway into the premiere episode, the TV series ups the ante considerably. Jonathan Tropper, who adapted Marissa Stapley's novel for TV and wrote the opener, waits until then to unveil the actors playing the parents. Lucky's dad is played by the always watchable Timothy Olyphant, and Carrie's mom is played by. What a treat. Annette Bening. She's fabulous. And when, as the mom, Priscilla, she catches up with Lucky, the energy between those two is electric.

[Tonya Mosley]

Where's my money? It's not your money. You and I never got along.

[Lee Sung Jin]

Why is that?

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Because I never liked you.

[Narrator/Reviewer]

Lucky is seven episodes in total. The beauty of dramatic miniseries and limited series is that even major characters can die at any time. It's the secret sauce of shows like Fargo, and Lucky maintains that high level of tension and unpredictability. It's a wild ride, as aggressively entertaining as that theme song by Fiona Apple. Speaking of which, let's end with a taste of that. Consider yourself lucky.

[Lee Sung Jin]

I pay attention to the men behind the curtain.

[Tonya Mosley]

I was born in the horns of a bull. David Biancooli reviewed the new new Apple TV series, Lucky. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with New Yorker staff writer Gia Tolentino, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is FRESH AIR. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and to get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free [e-mail] Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers. Roberta Shorrock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Cherry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley.

[Lee Sung Jin]

This week on Wait, wait, don't Tell Me, we asked rock legend Vicky Peterson

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from the Bengals why she once filled

[Lee Sung Jin]

in for the Go Go's lead guitarist, Charlotte Caffey.

[Tonya Mosley]

My friend Charlotte Caffeine was pregnant with my ex boyfriend's baby, I like to put it.

[Lee Sung Jin]

What? Yeah, don't miss our full conversation and the rest of our games. Listen to the the Wait, wait, Don't tell me. Podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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On this season of Planet Money Summer School, we follow the money and not just the dollars. We're following the yuan, the naira, the krona, and more. Every Wednesday this summer, we're taking you on a world tour to meet the people trying new solutions to old economic problems. Planet Money Summer School. Grab some friends, pack your bags, and don't forget the sunscreen. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.