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Capella University
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David Biancooli
This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooli. Our guest today is best selling author and New Yorker magazine staff writer David Grann. Grann has a knack for finding little known stories from history and turning them into books that are page turners. His nonfiction book the Wager, now out in paperback, is no exception. It's about a shipwreck and mutiny in the 1700s. Martin Scorsese plans to adapt it into a film. Scorsese already adapted another of Grann's books into a movie, Killers of the Flower Moon. An earlier Grann book, the Lost City of Z, also was adapted for the movies. Our producer Sam Brigger spoke with David Grann in 2023. Here's Sam.
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Sam Brigger
@ the bottom of the world, below the tip of South America, the Atlantic and Pacific oceans converged to form one of the most dangerous places to find yourself in a boat, the Drake passage. In the mid 18th century, a squadron of British warships made the journey through the passage in the worst weather imaginable, suffering terrible damage to their ships. One man of war called the Wager went missing and wrecked upon the rocks of a desolate island off Patagonia. At first, the castaways maintained the naval laws and discipline of the British Empire under their captain, but that unraveled under the hardships they endured, including poor shelter, punishing weather and starvation. There was murder and cannibalism, and the captain lost the respect of his crew, especially after killing one of the sailors by shooting him. Eventually, the majority of the men mutinied and sailed away on a makeshift craft, leaving behind their captain and a small band loyal to him. They sailed nearly 3,000 miles to rescue in Brazil, but only 29 of the 81 survived the journey. Miraculously, the captain survived as well. The leaders of the mutineers and the captain were reunited in England at a court martial hearing to decide whether they were guilty of the crimes of mutiny and murder. David grand writes about this harrowing journey in his new book, the Wager, a tale of shipwreck, mutiny and murder. Well, David Grann, welcome back to FRESH air.
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David Grann
Oh, it's so great to be back on the program.
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Sam Brigger
So your book takes place in the 1740s when the British Empire went to war against its rival Imperial Spain, and the war was called the War of Jenkins Ear. And we can leave that to readers to find out why I had that name. But there was a secret mission that a squadron of five British warships took. Tell us about that mission and where they were going.
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David Grann
Yeah, so they were given a secret mission to try to intercept and capture a Spanish galleon filled with so much treasure it was known as the prize of all the oceans. And so they were going to sail across the Atlantic, around the violent seas of Cape Horn, into the Pacific, and then try to intercept this ship somewhere off the coast of the Philippines. Believe it or not, that was part of the mission. And there was a real whiff of piracy to it all.
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Sam Brigger
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a heist movie, but isn't this piracy, isn't this almost illegal during that time?
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David Grann
It wasn't illegal. It was actually part. You know, it was the end of a certain era of buccaneering. But in that period, seamen were offered a tantalizing prospect, which was a share of the prize money. So, yes, there really was a piratical element to this, this secret mission.
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Sam Brigger
And can you set this conflict in the larger context? Like what were Britain and Spain fighting about?
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David Grann
Yeah, so Great Britain was seeking. This was the. This was the kind of terrible age of empires. And Great Britain was seeking to expand its empire into Latin America and break its rival Spain's hold over that region. And so this war was sparked by imperialists who are hoping to break that Spanish hold over this region.
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Sam Brigger
And as I said in the introduction, even today rounding Cape Horn is considered very dangerous. What makes it so tricky?
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David Grann
Oh, it is among the worst, if not the worst seas in the world. And the reason is that the seas travel uninterrupted, unblocked by any land around the globe. And so they travel about 13,000 miles without having anything to slow them down. And then they funnel around cape horn. A 90 foot wave can dwarf a ship's mast. The currents are the strongest on earth. And then there are the winds, which can accelerate to as much as 200 miles per hour. Herman Melville, who later made the trek around the Horn, compared it to a descent into. Into hell and Dante's Inferno.
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Sam Brigger
One of the things I found fascinating was that this is before the Panama Canal, obviously, but the Spanish would prefer to just cross Panama rather than sail around the Cape.
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David Grann
That is how terrifying Cape Horn was to seamen. That the Spanish decided that for their trade, they would take their cargo ship, sail to Panama, and then haul the goods across the jungle, suffering malaria and yellow fever, and then load the goods on the other side side of Panama onto ships into the Pacific. So that was just a testament to how terrifying these seas really were.
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Sam Brigger
Let's talk a little bit about these ships. You call them buoyant wooden castles. The flagship of this mission was the Centurion. Can you describe it for us?
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David Grann
Yeah. So these ships really were these kind of engineering marvels. They had. They were more than 120ft long. They had three masts, they propelled by sails. They could fly as many as, you know, 12 to 18 sails, depending on the size of the warship at a time. But again, they were also very susceptible to the elements of sea and storm because they were made of wood. One of the facts that astonished me when researching this book was that about 4,000 trees could be used to build one of these warships. And even I even found accounts of people complaining about a kind of deforestation at the time.
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Sam Brigger
Now, the Wager, the ship that you focus on, was not built as a man of war. It was actually a merchant ship that was purchased by the Navy and refurbished for battle. You say it was tubby and unwieldy.
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David Grann
Yeah, it was a little bit like the ugly duckling of the squadron, because it had not been born for battle. It had been one of these merchant ships that had been remade into a warship to serve in the war. It was the lowest rated ship in that period. They rated warships by the number of cannons and the wager at 28. So it was a 6 rate, which was the lowest rate. And it had been named after the head of the Admiralty at the time, a man named Sir Charles Wager. And the name, in many ways seemed fitting because they were all, in effect, gambling with their lives.
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Sam Brigger
So these boats also needed a lot of sailors to work properly. You say that the Centurion, the flagship of this mission, needed 400 sailors. And that's only one of the ships going on the mission. There are four other warships, there's a scouting boat and two cargo ships. They all needed personnel, but the Navy was having a hard time recruiting enough men. What means did they resort to to find the manpower?
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David Grann
Yeah. So the Great Britain at that time did not have conscription and it had exhausted its supply of volunteers during this war for the Navy. And so for the squadron, which was desperately short of men, and men were the most essential element. You needed SK to operate these very complex vessels. And so what they did was they dispatched the press gangs. And the press gangs would roam into cities, they would roam into ports and towns, and they would look for anyone with the telltale signs of a mariner. You know, if you had even a little Tar on the tips of your fingertips. Tar was used on a ship a lot. They would say, oh, you're a mariner. They would round you up, they would put you on these basically like these floating jails and take you out to the ship. And you were forced to go unwillingly on a voyage that might last three years. Even then, the squadron was short of men, so the Admiralty took the extreme step of rounding up soldiers from a retirement home, many of whom were in their 60s and 70s. They were missing an assortment of limbs. Some were so sick they needed to be lifted on stretchers onto these ships before the voyage. Everybody knew they were sailing to their deaths.
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Sam Brigger
Back to the press gangs for a second. You describe how the press gangs would row out to returning merchant ships, and these are ships that may have been out in sea for years and would snatch sailors off those boats so that the sailors wouldn't be able to see their families. They would be put right back onto another boat. And then also you describe how there's this poignant scene where family and wives would go to the docks looking for their loved ones, trying to peer into the floating jails to see if they could get one last glimpse of the men before they were sent off again.
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David Grann
Yeah, I mean, those scenes give you such a poignant sense of the human toll, these expeditions. You know, you could have been a loved one waiting for somebody to come home, and then you hear they've been snatched. You haven't seen a husband or a brother or a son for years and years, and then you just hope to catch one last glimpse before they sail off. And given how perilous this voyage is, not only may you not, this may be the last glimpse you have of your loved one.
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Sam Brigger
Let's talk a little bit about life on board these boats. Although they were huge vessels, there were so many sailors that unless you were, say, like the captain, you didn't have a lot of personal space. Right?
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David Grann
Yeah. Like on land, real estate was a reflection of a class society and hierarchical society. So the captain had a great, great cabin, a large cabin with a balcony overlooking the sea. But the petty officers were in very small quarters and the seamen had to sleep on hammocks, separated only by about a foot, at most the distance. And, you know, so in jostling seas, their elbows and knees are bouncing against.
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Sam Brigger
Each other, and there could be dozens of boys on board, some as young as six years old. What jobs do they have?
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David Grann
Yeah. So, I mean, what's so interesting about these ships is that they really are these floating civilizations that are Almost like a test or experiment in human sociability. Because people from all walks of lives and all ages are thrown onto these ships. You know, they begin as strangers, most of them. There could be boys as young as six. You could have men in their 80s. You have aristocrats, you have dandies, you have city paupers, you have professional craftsmen, you have free black seamen. They're each given a different kind of mission. The boys tended to be. They were like powder monkeys. They would, you know, run about carrying the, you know, the gunpowder in battle. Many of them were there to be trained to learn how to live on a ship so that they could go on to become seamen. And some might even be from well to do families who are in training to eventually become officers.
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Sam Brigger
Yeah, one of those is actually John Byron, who later as the grandfather of Lord Byron, the poet. The way you describe it, one of the more dangerous jobs on board was climbing the main mast. Can you describe how harrowing that is?
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David Grann
Yeah, it's harrowing. So you mentioned Jaham Biram, for example, this midshipman, who is 16 years old when the voyage set sail. And he has to learn, you know, how to work and operate on a ship. And one of the tasks he has to do is to climb these masts that can climb, as you know, that can rise as much as a hundred feet. They would have to climb along these ropes that hold up the masts on the exterior and scurry up them. You know, it wasn't like ships today where you could kind of work the seals from down on the deck. You had to go up and then climb up and climb up. Sometimes when you were climbing, your back was nearly parallel to the deck and the sea.
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David Biancooli
Right.
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Sam Brigger
Because the ship is moving. This is not a static, static pole. The ship is rocking back and forth.
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David Grann
No, I mean, and it's important to mention that, you know, there will come a time on this voyage where not only are they rocking back and forth, they have to do this in hurricanes and typhoons. So they are swinging as if, you know, they were spiders clinging on as the ship rocks, you know, close to 45 degrees to one side and then 45 degrees to the other.
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Sam Brigger
I have to ask you what the toilet situation was like.
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David Grann
Well, everything on a ship had its own name and the toilet was known as the head. It was basically a hole in the water and it would just kind of shoot through and down into the sea. But in storms, when, for the average seamen, when it became so rough and it would. When they were going around Cape Horn, the seas were coming over the entire bow of the ship, washing some of the heads away and making it impossible to use them.
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Sam Brigger
It would not be right to call it a privy because there was no.
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David Grann
You'd be a landlubber if you called it a privy.
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Sam Brigger
So there was a lot of documentation that happened on these boats. A lot of the officers would keep log books, Even some non officers would keep logbooks. Why were these so important?
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David Grann
Yeah. So the admiralty and the British Empire and the government required the senior officers all to keep a logbook, the captain and lieutenant, of almost a daily occurrence of the wind and the elements and unexpected accidents and remarkable incidents. And this was partly a way for the British Empire, which was during this age of ruthless expansion. These documents provided a kind of encyclopedic knowledge of what the world was like, what these unchartered seas were like. All this was being fueled back to the empire for further trade and conquest. These documents were also very important because if anything happened on a ship, let's say there was a mutiny or a shipwreck or something went wrong, they would become entered into evidence at a court martial, and officers were instructed not to alter them or to edit them because it raised suspicions.
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Sam Brigger
And some of the logbooks of the wager survived the wreck. And you actually got to read them. What was that like?
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David Grann
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard to fathom how some of these documents survived typhoons and the tidal waves and the shipwreck and made it back. And you can hold these incredibly brittle documents from the 18th century. You know, you open them up in a box and you pull them out. You know, dust just blows out of them. The covers are almost disintegrating. But they are a wealth of information and let you to really meticulously reconstruct this expedition from day. There are muster books, there are logbooks, there are journals, and much more.
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Sam Brigger
So, David, there's two important characters in your book that will become like the opposing poles in the mutiny. One is the captain, David Cheap. And he actually starts this journey to South America as a second in command of a different boat, but he's promoted to captain of the Wager after its captain dies. Give us a little sense of him.
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David Grann
Yeah. So Captain Cheap was somebody who on land, was plagued by debts and chased by creditors, but he had always found refuge on the regimented wooden world of a ship. And on this voyage, he had finally obtained what he had always longed for, was his deep ambition, which was to be captain of his own warship and to have a chance to possibly capture a Lucrative prize.
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Sam Brigger
And the other character is John Bulkeley, who was the gunner of the Wager. And the gunner is in charge of the boat's munitions and was usually a very responsible and reliable person, which would describe Bulkley. He was considered a natural leader among the sailors.
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David Grann
Yes, he was in many ways the most skilled seaman on board the Wager. He was, as you said, an instinctive leader. But because he did not come from the aristocracy or from the wealthier classes, he knew that it was unlikely that he would ever have a chance to become a commander of his own warship. Like David Sheep, the captain.
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Sam Brigger
Okay. One of the biggest enemies the Squadron has to face was disease. First, as the warships are crossing the Atlantic, there's a typhus breakout. And typhus is carried in the feces of lice. Just for anyone who didn't know that then, as the boats are beginning the most difficult part of their journey around Cape Horn, they are struck with the second disease, scurvy. We now know that scurvy is caused by a vitamin C deficiency, and it's actually easy to prevent and to cure by eating citrus. But the time people didn't know this, ships didn't carry citrus on board or really any fruits and vegetables. And the sailors were defenseless against the disease. It sounds like scurvy was a ticking time bomb to any boat that traveled over a certain amount of time.
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David Grann
That is true. Scurvy killed more seamen than all the other potential dangers that ship tempests and other diseases combined. And as the squadron and the Wager were sailing around Cape Horn at a point when the ships are just being bandied about like these rowboats in these gigantic seas, and they need every person to persevere, they begin to suffer from scurvy, and they don't know what causes it, but their hair begins to fall out, their teeth fall out. And as some seamen say, the disease got into their brains and they went raving mad.
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Sam Brigger
Okay, so the ships are making their attempt to round Cape Horn. How did it go?
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David Grann
Oh, not so well. You know, they are being. You know, they lack men. At one point, I think one of the more extraordinary moment, they can't even fly their sails because they keep blowing out. And so. But they. If they take down all the sails, they can't control the ship. So they. One of the commanders orders his men to climb the mast during this storm while the ships are rocking violently, and to use their bodies as these threadbare sails so that the captain can help turn the ship. So imagine this. You have these men and boys standing one hundred feet in the air, their bodies concave as a gale force wind blows against them. And the captain was able to turn the ship around, but one of the men was lost and fell into the sea, and the others could see him desperately swimming after the ship futilely.
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Sam Brigger
Yeah, that's an amazing part of the story. So he doesn't want to use sails because the winds are so strong, but so he just needs a little bit of power and control. And so that's why he has these sailors go up there and act as sails.
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David Grann
Exactly.
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David Biancooli
David Grann speaking to Sam Brigger in 2023. His book the A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder is now out in paperback. We'll continue their conversation after a break. And I'll review the new Netflix series the Four Seasons, starring Steve Carell and Tina Fey. I'm David Biancooli and this is FRESH air.
- [20:34]
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David Biancooli
Get back to producer Sam Brigger's interview with Best selling nonfiction author David Grann, who's also a staff writer for the New Yorker. His previous books include the Lost City of Z and Killers of the Flower Moon. His latest book, now out in paperback, is about an 18th century British warship that crashed on a remote island off Patagonia. The castaways face terrible conditions and eventually mutinied against their Captain. Some of them were able to reach safety on a makeshift boat by sailing nearly 3,000 miles to Brazil. The book is called the Wager, a tale of shipwreck, mutiny and murder.
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Sam Brigger
One of the reasons I find this book so compelling is that I just have absolutely no interest whatsoever in getting on a boat and trying to round Cape Horn. Like, it just sounds like the worst possible scenario to me.
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David Grann
It is. You know, very few people join that elite club of Cape Horners who a want to go around the Horn and ever come back. There's, you know, if anyone reads Melville, he has amazing descriptions of Cape Horn, and he basically says, heaven help the. You know, the family members if they're. If one of their loved ones is going around the Horn.
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Sam Brigger
What about you? Are you adventurous, or do you like to find your adventure in pages of books and documents?
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David Grann
Well, I am the least likely adventurer possible in so many ways. I'm half blind, I'm older, I'm bald. I get lost on a subway, even on my way to work. And I spend most of my time in archives researching these stories, as I did for the wager. I spent the first two years just combing archives, reading these journals and books with a magnifying glass. These places are very suited for my paltry physical attributes. But then there usually comes a time whenever I research these books or stories where some doubt gnaws at me. Some part of the story I don't fully feel like I understand. And I get propelled on some mad expedition, you know, to try to better understand what happened. And so in the case of the wager, I eventually organized my own little expedition to try to get to Wager Island.
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Sam Brigger
You don't round Cape Horn, right?
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David Grann
I do not round Cape Horn, and I hope I never do. It was rough enough as it was.
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Sam Brigger
All right, well, let's get back to the wager. First of all, just how long does it take to round Cape Horn?
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David Grann
Well, they are struggling to get around it for months because every time they think they get around it, they don't. And the ships are breaking apart. Some of the ships end up turning back. So it takes, you know, weeks and weeks and weeks as they attempt to get around the Horn.
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Sam Brigger
But they. They do succeed, finally. But the boat is in terrible shape. They're no longer with the rest of the squadron. I think the squadron believes that the wager has sunk. Most of the crew, including the captain, has scurvy. They can't do their jobs at all or very well. And the ship wrecks, Some of the crew believe. And this will be a factor in the mutiny that it's the captain's fault that Captain Cheap was so single minded on his mission that he didn't really seem to pay attention that the boat had drifted into shallow waters. So the boat starts getting ripped apart by rocks and bringing on water. Fortunately, it gets wedged between some rocks and so it doesn't completely sink. And that gives the sailors an opportunity to get in their small transport boats and row to this desolate island. And this is not the most hospitable island for castaways, is it?
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David Grann
No, no. The captain determinedly gets around the horn and is trying to sail the ship up the coast of Patagonia and Chile, hoping to eventually rendezvous with the rest of the squadron. But in those days, seamen didn't really know exactly where they were on the map because they could not determine their longitude. Longitude required a reliable clock, which had not yet been invented. And so Cheap, in his navigator's estimation of their longitude, turns out to be not only wrong, but wrong by hundreds of miles. And they suddenly smash into this rock and an anchor falls through the floor of the ship. The rudder shatters. And then the ship is just careening through this minefield until it does become wedged between these rocks and begins to completely rip apart. Water surges under the bottom into the ship. Rats are scurrying upward. Those who are suffering from scurvy, who could not get out of their hammocks, drown. But in the distance, some of the survivors see this through the mist, this desolate island, and they think, okay, maybe this will be our salvation. And they get there in one of these transport boats, about nearly 150 of them. And instead the island turns out to be the beginning of their hell. It is cold and windy, it's constantly raining and sleeting, and worst of all, they can find virtually no food. One British officer compared the island to a place where the soul of man dies in him.
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Sam Brigger
Right? They were starving, they were cold, they had to scrape seaweed off of rocks to eat. They have a few supplies left from the boat, but the captain takes those and puts them in a tent and rations them out to make them last. But the castaways are on the road to starvation. And one of the most remarkable moments during the castaways time on the island is that they're visited by this group of indigenous people called the Kawaskar, who come to their island by canoe. And you know, the land that the British are on, it seems so barren and punishing to them. But the Kawaskar have Perfectly adapted to their environment. Can you describe them to us?
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David Grann
Yeah. You know, like other Patagonians, they have been in the region. Native Patagonians, they've been in the region for hundreds and hundreds of years. And so they had adapted to this very difficult environment. They traveled mostly in small familial groups. They lived almost exclusively off marine resources. And they traveled and spent much of their times in canoes. They were known as the nomads of the sea. They had learned how to stay warm. They would keep a fire going at all times, even in their canoes. And most critically, they knew the landscape and the terrain, so they knew where to find hidden shoals filled with fish or other sea urchins that could be eaten or mussels or whatnot. So they knew. Knew how to survive. And so when they arrive, they offer the castaways a potential lifeline.
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Sam Brigger
Right? Which unfortunately, the castaways, they cut their own lifeline.
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David Grann
The castaways cut their own lifeline. Many of them are blinkered by, you know, racism, this idea that somehow their civilization is superior to others. And they're also spiraling into violence and chaos. At a certain point, the Kawaskar basically just say, you know, we're out of here. And they. And they disappear. And after that moment, the castaways descend only further into a Hobbesian state of depravity. And a few of the men even succumb to cannibalism.
- [29:33]
Sam Brigger
Okay, so Captain Cheap is trying to maintain naval law on the island, but the system starts to break down. Some men start stealing food. When they're caught, they are punished with 600 lashes. The captain shoots a man amidshipment in the cheek. This man, Henry Cousins, had been accused of dereliction of duty. He eventually dies from his wounds, and the crew believes that Cheap wasn't justified in his actions. And the men's loyalty to Cheap erodes. And the sailors start looking for leadership from the gunner John Bulkeley.
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David Grann
Yes, they increasingly gravitate towards Bulkley, that instinctive leader who uses such populous expressions that still resonate with us today. He would use phrases to stir the seamen, calling for them for life and liberty, while Cheap invokes such principles as duty and honor and patriotism to try to keep the men loyal to him and to the mission.
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Sam Brigger
We can't get into the details of the mutiny, but they finally decide to go that path. And it's so interesting to me, like, how long it takes them to get there. Like, there's all these deliberations. There's a lot of diplomacy back and forth between the factions. Like it seems that mutiny was a really hard line for these men to cross despite all that had happened to them.
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David Grann
Yes, a full blown mutiny they knew was risky and a real breach of naval order. And if it was a full blown mutiny, like the kind some were contemplating, the punishment could be or likely would be being hanged if they ever made it back to England. So even when they are planning it, they are holding these debates. And what's amazing is that even on this desolate, remote island, the castaways are conscious of the Admiralty, you know, thousands of miles away, all the way in England, paring down on them. So they are thinking about the rules, what rules they can break. They are writing up documents and trying to create a written record contemporaneously that can justify their uprising. A written record that would withstand the attrition of a public trial.
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Sam Brigger
Yeah, it's amazing. They have these little scraps of paper and they're having all the mutineers sign them, especially the second in command. So it seems like that they were justified in their actions. And then Bulkley just takes all these pieces of paper with them on their journey.
- [32:12]
David Grann
That is correct.
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Sam Brigger
Okay. So once the boat is ready, the mutineers take control of it and leave Captain Cheap along with the few remaining men loyal to him on the island. He actually requests to be left there rather than to be taken prisoner on the boat. And Bulkling, his men make this journey almost 3,000 miles successfully. But you could not call it an easy trip.
- [32:38]
David Grann
No, it was not an easy trip. And one important caveat, upon leaving the captain, they didn't really leave him with a working boat to get off. And so I think the assumption to some degree, or at least from Cheaps point of view, is he was being left to die so that he could never share his story. So if the others made it back to England, only one version of the tale would prevail.
- [32:59]
David Biancooli
David Grann speaking to FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger in 2023. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
- [33:06]
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- [34:08]
Sam Brigger
So only 29 of the 81 men who take this trip survive. One actually dies, I think, as they made it to safety. And we won't get into the story, but miraculously, Captain Cheap and some of his men are rescued from the island by a group of native people. And we'll save that to the readers. But it's amazing, first of all, that these men survived. They made it to safety, greatly diminished, but they all make it back to England. And there the survivors engage in this sort of war of words. Some of the men, including Bulkley, publish accounts of their experience in part to make money, but also to sway public opinion to their side. And this is all happening at a time of increased journalism and publishing. Can you sort of talk about that?
- [34:56]
David Grann
Yeah, there was greater literacy. Printing was cheaper. So there was a real explosion in newspaper writing, in travel literature. They were known as the Grub street hacks, you know, which is where a lot of the publishing had been located. Who were these? Kind of, for the first time, writing, kind of done by professionals for individual profit rather than patronage by the aristocracy. And so you had these profusion of accounts, and these accounts that were being released by the various seamen and members of the expedition struck a chord. And what's so important to understand is why they did this. They get back to England, and after waging a war against all these elements, they are summoned to face a court martial where they could be hanged. So they begin to wage this war over the truth, releasing their accounts. And there is, you know, they each shape their account probably the way we all do in some way in order to emerge as the hero of their stories. There's a famous line from Joan Didion who says, we all tell ourselves stories in order to live. But in their case, it's quite literally true. They must try to tell a convincing tale in order to spare their lives. And, you know, during this battle of over information, there is disinformation. It's just like today, there is misinformation, disinformation. There were even allegations of fake journals and a kind of fake news of the 18th century.
- [36:28]
Sam Brigger
So Bulkley and Cheap are Called to a court martial hearing by the Navy. And Bulkley's concerned he's going to have to defend himself against the charge of mutiny. And Cheap's main concern is that he's going to face a charge of murder, which is punishable by death for the shooting of the midshipman Henry Cousins. The court martial actually takes a surprising turn. What happens there?
- [36:51]
David Grann
Yeah, so many of them fear they're going to be hanged. And they have good reason to fear that given the naval code, given that this had been a full blown mutiny, given that that jeep had shot somebody without asking questions, without a proceeding, some of them prayed before going in. But when they go into the court martial, something astonishing happens. They aren't asked about anything that happened on the island, none of the alleged crimes. Instead, they're only asked about what had caused the shipwreck. I would compare it to the authorities stopping a car and finding a dead body in the trunk and asking the driver only why he or she had a busted tail light. And it turned out that the admiralty and those in power really didn't like any of these stories.
- [37:47]
Sam Brigger
Right. And Bulkley and Cheep, while they have a lot of concerns about each other's behavior on the ship and who is responsible for the wreckage of the ship, they decide to censor themselves because they see the way that the court martial is going, that they're not going to have to face those more serious crimes.
- [38:06]
David Grann
Yes. And after that single proceeding about what it calls the wreck, everybody is let go. And it became, as one naval historian called it, the mutiny that never was.
- [38:20]
Sam Brigger
And you say that the Navy behaved this way because the whole affair had just been a public relations disaster for them and the British Empire. What do you mean by that?
- [38:31]
David Grann
Yeah, so, you know, this expedition that it set out with nearly, you know, 2000 men, more than 1300 of them had died. It was really kind of a folly of imperialism. It was a mission kind of bungled from the star and planning the public clamor for war. But as so often wars, didn't actually really want to pay for it. So they sent off their various people in many ways simply to die. Thousands and thousands of other seamen had died during other battles during this war period. And the war was kind of a bloody stalemate. And the Wager disaster was a reminder of that. But even more profoundly, it undercut that central claim that the British Empire always asserted to justify its ruthless expansion and conquering of other peoples, that its civilization was somehow superior to others. But here, when these caste were on the island, these British officers and crew, these supposed apostles of Western civilization, they had descended into this Hobbesian state of depravity. They had behaved, you know, less like gentlemen and more like brutes. And so none of the stories that these seamen were telling, you know, in their own the seamen were all battling over their stories, trying to prevail. But the British Navy and empire was looking at these stories saying, I don't know if we like any of these stories.
- [39:56]
Sam Brigger
So how did you first come across this story?
- [39:58]
David Grann
One of my interests was always in mutinies. I was always fascinated by mutinies. I think, like a lot of people, because what makes mutinies so interesting is they occur in a military organization that is by its very nature designed by the state as an instrument of order, to enforce order. And so what causes these men or women or members of this unit to suddenly rebel? Are they these extreme outlaws or is there something justified in their actions? Because there is something, you know, rotten within the system or what is taking place. And so I was doing research on mutinies when I came across the account of John Byron, the midshipman from the Wager. And there was also, just like today, this great battle over who would get to tell the history and effort by those in power to cover up the sinful chapters of a nation's past. And so I would come home from the archives and flip on the TV or read the newspaper, and I would be reading in our own society about these wars over the truth and disinformation and fake news and who would get to tell history and what books were being banned. And I thought this crazy, weird story is like a parable for our own turbulent times.
- [41:16]
Sam Brigger
Well, David Grann, thanks so much for coming back on FRESH air.
- [41:19]
David Grann
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much, Sam.
- [41:22]
David Biancooli
David Grann speaking with FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger in 2023. Grann's book now out in paperback is called the A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder. After a break, I'll review the new Netflix miniseries the Four Seasons, starring Tina Fey and Steve Carell. It's based on the 1981 movie of the same name. This is FRESH AIR.
- [41:43]
Capella University
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Progressive Insurance
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- [42:52]
David Biancooli
Netflix has just launched a new miniseries based on an old movie. The movie, written and directed by Alan Alda and released in 1981, was the Four Seasons. It was a comedy drama about three middle aged couples who meet for short vacations four times a year. The movie structure came from nature, the music from Vivaldi's Four Seasons, and the cast was led by Alan Alda and Carol Burnett as Jack and Kate. The other vacationing married couples were Nick and Anne, played by Lynn Cariou and Sandy Dennis and Danny and Claudia, played by Jack Weston and Rita Moreno. All had been together and known each other for a long time, but over the course of the film, events included several arguments, one breakup, even a death. The idea of expanding the Four Seasons movie into a TV miniseries was done once before by Alan alda himself in 1984. Now, more than 40 years later, a new TV version has just surfaced on Netflix. Its creators are Tina Fey and two writers from the Mindy Project, Lang Fisher and Tracy Wigfield. They've made some significant changes and updated the setting and comedy, but the basic plot and tone remain the same. Like the original film, Netflix's the Four Seasons is a mature, laid back piece of entertainment. The humor evokes more smiles than belly laughs and the dramatic moments work without evoking any tears. The eight episode miniseries devotes two episodes to each season, starting with spring. Jack and Kate, the uptight and verbally sparring couple, are now played by Will Forte and Tina Fey. Nick and Anne, the couple about to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary, are now played by Steve carell and from Reno911, Carrie, Kenny Silver. And the big difference in this new adaptation is that the final couple, which in the movie was Danny and his Italian wife Claudia, is now Danny and his Italian husband Claude. Colman. Domingo plays Danny and Marco Calvani plays Claude. In spring, they all gather at Nick and Ann's lake house to honor their silver anniversary. At the dinner table, Jack, played by Will Forte, gives a toast and prompts Quite a response. Starting with his wife Kate, played by Tina Fey, and ending with an observation by Danny, played by Colman Domingo.
- [45:19]
F
Look, it is rare in this life to find your soulmate. And yet, somehow, all six of us have done it. To Nick and Anne.
- [45:31]
Progressive Insurance
Cheers.
- [45:32]
Sam Brigger
Cheers.
- [45:33]
G
Cheers.
- [45:33]
David Grann
Thank you.
- [45:34]
H
So nicely said, honey. Even though soulmates aren't a real thing.
- [45:39]
F
How can you say that?
- [45:40]
David Grann
Of course soulmates are real.
- [45:42]
H
You really believe there is one person for every person on it? There's one person in the whole, whole earth that they're supposed to be with. And then that person also happens to be in the same dorm at college.
- [45:53]
F
So. Do you not love me?
- [45:54]
H
I love you so much. But we're not lucky. We're dedicated. Romantic. Love fades.
- [46:01]
Sam Brigger
Jesus.
- [46:01]
H
And then you build something deeper.
- [46:04]
David Biancooli
Who invited the incel? Love is the point of everything. It defines us as human beings.
- [46:10]
David Grann
Yes, yes, but also dolphins.
- [46:13]
H
Help me say this right, because I know you agree with me.
- [46:16]
G
Oh, okay. Here's what I know. When you're young and in love, it's beyond your control. You know, you can't help it. You know, think about all the people in our 20s that we were in love with who did not deserve us. But what we have now as a result of knowledge and experience, you know, we have chosen each other.
- [46:41]
David Biancooli
The TV version of the four seasons stretches to about four hours, giving the show's various writers time to delve more deeply into relationships and subplots. At times, this isn't necessarily an improvement. A few scenes feel forced and fall flat, but in others, the dialogue and acting are sharp. And the updating works, as in a summer installment when Kate and Jack are talking privately after just meeting Ginny, the much younger woman brought along on vacation by Steve Carell's Nick.
- [47:12]
H
I mean, I get it. She's young and hot, right?
- [47:14]
F
Don't see a ton of upside for me in answering that.
- [47:17]
H
What is he doing? He's changing his entire personality for his 30 year old girlfriend. He's being such a zelig.
- [47:23]
F
Oh, that's a really fresh reference. Yeah, you should say that in front of Jenny. And when she asks what a zelig is, you should explain. Oh, it's a Woody Allen movie that you like.
- [47:33]
H
Whatever. Why can't he have his midlife crisis at home? Why does he have to bring it on my vacation?
- [47:38]
David Biancooli
With its changes of locale and its occasional visits to resort hotels, the Four Seasons might look like a close relative of the White Lotus, but the drama and mystery aren't anywhere near as heightened here. Just as the comedy isn't as broadly played as it would be in an Adam Sandler buddy vacation movie. The Four Seasons is like a rom com, but offering a much wider and wiser perspective than many. After you've met Q to overcome obstacles and fallen in love, what's next? And what's in store for the next 25 years? The four seasons may not have all the answers, but at least it asks some of the right questions. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interview, follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. On Monday's show, we talk with Sarah Snook. She's won an Emmy and two Golden Globe awards for playing Shiv Roy on the show succession. She's now on Broadway as the only actor playing 26 different roles in the play the Picture of Dorian Gray. She performed the role in London last year and won an Olivier. I hope you can join us. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Thea Chaloner. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tanya Moseley. I'm David Biancooli.
- [49:33]
Capella University
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Progressive Insurance
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