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- [00:01]
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This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.
- [00:17]
Terry Gross
I'm Terry Gross. My guest was a key behind the scenes figure in Rent and Hamilton, two Broadway mega hits that opened the door to new kinds of musicals. Each won a Pulitzer Prize for drama and multiple Tony Awards, including best musical. My guest, Jeffrey Seller, produced Rent with his business partner. Seller's own company produced Hamilton. He was also a producer of Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical, in the Heights, as well as the satirical adult puppet musical Avenue Q and the recent revival of Sondheim's Sweeney Todd starring Josh Groban. As you may assume that since his skills include raising money to produce shows that he's from money, but he's most definitely not. His family was often broke or close to it. He grew up in a neighborhood outside Detroit that was nicknamed Cardboard Village because the houses were so cheap and shoddy. His father worked serving papers, 20 bucks for each summons served. His mother worked for low wages as a clerk at at a neighborhood pharmacy. The family couldn't afford health insurance, and Seller had serious respiratory problems. Seller has written a new memoir called Theater Kid that's a fascinating look into his own life and into different parts of the theater world. His life in the theater started when he was a child and landed a role in his synagogue Purim play. After many stops along the way, he became a booker with the job of booking touring companies of popular musicals into theaters around the country. That work led him where he always wanted to be, producing musicals. He also writes about coming out during the AIDS epidemic and how terrifying that was and how it wiped out so many people who created and performed in Broadway shows, as well as a significant part of the audience. We recorded our interview June 17. A few days later on June 23, an announcement was made that on that night a group of Democratic senators, along with Jeffrey Seller, would host an invitation only Pride celebration at one of the Kennedy Center's smaller theaters. This was not programmed by the Kennedy Center. Seller was also part of a protest in early March when Hamilton canceled its scheduled run at the Kennedy center in protest against President Trump removing and replacing 18 Kennedy Center Board members who were appointed by President Biden. Trump fired the chair of the board and took over that position himself. In a statement explaining Hamilton's cancellation, Seller said, quote, the recent purge flies in the face of everything this national Cultural center represents, unquote. Here's our interview. Jeffrey Seller, welcome to Fresh Air. Well, since this is the 10th anniversary of Hamilton, congratulations Of Hamilton opening on Broadway.
- [03:15]
Jeffrey Seller
Thank you.
- [03:17]
Terry Gross
You had already produced Rent and Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical in the Heights. When you heard in the Heights mix of rap and Broadway music, you felt a little out of your element because you hadn't followed rap. Had you listened to a lot more rap by the time of Hamilton?
- [03:33]
Jeffrey Seller
No. I had, of course, become completely enamored with in the Heights. And you know, that first time Lynn sang Lights up on Washington Heights at the break of day, it was so warm. It was like this Caribbean water that's just enveloping me. And then when after that, the Broadway chorus came in with in the Heights, I wake up and start my day. My God, I already had the goosebumps. And in many ways, Hamilton was just Lynn's next musical.
- [04:11]
Terry Gross
Okay, so since you mentioned in the Heights in that opening song, let's hear it.
- [04:19]
Lin Manuel Miranda
That was Abuela. She's not really my abuela, but she practically raised me. This corner is her escuela. Now, you probably thinking, I'm up creek. I never been north of 96th Street. Well, you must take the A train even farther than Harlem to northern Manhattan and maintain. Get off at 181st and take the escalator. I hope you're right in this. I'm gonna test you later. I'm getting tested. Times are tough on this bodega. Two months ago, somebody bought Ortegas. Our neighbors started packing up and f. Cking up. And ever since the rents went up, it's gotten mad expensive. But we live with just enough in the Heights I lift the lights Start my day There are lights and endless debts and bills to pay in the Heights I can't survive without the fish but tonight seems like a million years away in Washington. Next up, tonight.
- [05:18]
Terry Gross
Okay, that's the opening of the Broadway musical In the Heights, Lin Manuel Miranda's first musical, produced by my guest, Jeffrey Cellar. So Hamilton was supposed to be a record. That was the plan. And it was gonna be called the Hamilton Mixtape. And you convinced, or helped convince Lynne that it should be a musical, not just a recording. How did you convince him?
- [05:41]
Jeffrey Seller
Well, I'm gonna give real credit to that to his colleague, friend and director, Thomas Kail. And Tommy had an idea, which is that if he could get Lin to do a public cabaret performance of just the songs, that would persuade him that this could be a musical. So in early 2012, they did, like, eight songs from Hamilton at Jazz at Lincoln Center. And it was so clear from that performance that this was a book musical that after that I wrote a letter to both of them saying, if you want to get going on a musical, I want to be your producer and I'll clear the decks. I'll be your cheerleader, I'll be your nurturer, I'll be your critic if you want to go. I had a new company at that point. I named it Adventureland. And I said, let's go on this adventure together. And that was early 2012.
- [06:36]
Terry Gross
So as the lead producer, what was your role? What was your job?
- [06:41]
Jeffrey Seller
Sometimes it was to make lunch. Like at one point, Lynne and Tommy and another writer we were considering working with came out to my house and they would work in the morning. I would make egg salad with my own mayonnaise that I had learned how to make from the New York Times Cookbook and serve. But what I mean by that is setting the table for them to do the great work and giving them that space and giving them that praise when it was necessary, giving them that reinforcement and encouragement when it's necessary. And then sometimes knowing when can I make a suggestion or not? Can I. Sometimes knowing when is the right time to make a suggestion.
- [07:30]
Terry Gross
Tell us a suggestion you made that you think was really helpful.
- [07:35]
Jeffrey Seller
You know, in the case of Hamilton, I would say I made less suggestions than I ever had before. But, you know, one very important one was cutting the third rap battle in act two. You know, we had not two rap battles, but we had three rap battles. You know, another situation was cutting the Dear Theodosia reprise in actual Act 2. I also seem to remember talking deeply about how the set would be realized, which came later with David Corens and Thomas Kael. I also remember talking a lot about the staging of Washington on youn side, which may not have been in its best form the first time they did it.
- [08:19]
Terry Gross
Cutting. Why was cutting the rap battle and the other song that you referred to, why was cutting them important? And why did you think they needed to be cut?
- [08:32]
Jeffrey Seller
How much can we, as audience members take in? We are not equipped for three hour musicals. And our musical already had a first act that was an hour and 15 minutes. And believe it or not, the second act was even longer, which actually breaks the rule that Oscar Hammerstein once said, which was that the first act is usually gonna be twice as long as the second act. Or let me put it another way, the second act is going to be half as long as the first act. And in our show, the second act was actually longer. And one of our jobs is to really try to feel how the audience is gonna stay with the show through every moment of the show. And there's a moment where the audience, they can't take anymore. Where are we redundant? Where are we in a situation where we can actually lose something? And in those instances, I gave, and there were others in Act 2 as well that we succeeded.
- [09:34]
Terry Gross
What's the logic behind the second act being shorter than the first?
- [09:39]
Jeffrey Seller
Because we give our greatest amount of energy to the show for the first act. That's where you're establishing character plot, the rising dramatic action, that big dramatic question. What is the major dramatic question? And then in Act 2, we just really want to see it resolved. And if you look at west side Story, that's a show that has a 90 minute first act and a 45 minute second act.
- [10:05]
Terry Gross
Is there a particular song in Hamilton that when you first heard the music from, it made you think, this is great.
- [10:16]
Jeffrey Seller
Well, Lynn shared with me the first songs probably around 2010, 2011. And when I heard my shot for the first time, I was like, whoa. Like if in the Heights was this warm Caribbean embrace. My shot was lightning. It was a wallop. And I knew he was taking this form to a deeper place that had even more impact. And I knew he was on another creative tear.
- [10:52]
Terry Gross
Well, let's hear a little bit of my shot. And of course, this is Lin Manuel Miranda.
- [10:57]
Lin Manuel Miranda
I am not throwing away my shot I am not throwing away my shot Yo, I'm just like my country I'm young, scrappy and hungry and I'm not throwing away my shot I'mma get a scholarship to King's College I probably shouldn't brag with gag I am maze and astonished the problem is I got a lot of brains but no polish I got a holler just to be heard with every word I drop knowledge I'm a diamond in the rough A shiny piece of coal Trying to reach my goal my power speech unimpeachable only 19 but my mind is over these New York City streets get colder I shoulder every burden, every disadvantage I've learned to manage I don't have a gun to brandish I walk these streets famished the plan is to fan this spark into a flame but damn, it's getting dark so let me spell out the name I am the A L E X A N D E, R We are meant to be a colony that runs independently Meanwhile, Britain keeps on us endlessly Essentially they tax us relentlessly Then King George turns around, runs A spending spree he ain't never gonna set his descendants free so there will be a revolution in this century Enter me, he says in parentheses don't be shocked when your history book mentions me I will lay down my life if it sets us free eventually you'll see my ascendancy and I am not thrown away my shot I am not throwing away my shot Just like my country I'm young, scrappy and hungry and I'm not throwing away.
- [12:20]
Terry Gross
My shot that's Lin Manuel Miranda from the original Broadway cast recording of Hamilton. And my guest was the lead producer of Hamilton, Jeffrey Seller. He has a new memoir called Theater Kid. Was it hard to convince backers to invest in Hamilton?
- [12:40]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh, gosh, no. Hamilton had this incredible power to galvanize audiences almost within minutes of any performance starting. So when we started to share readings of Hamilton with people in the industry, they were going crazy for it. So I raised the money for Hamilton faster and easier than I had raised money for anything else before.
- [13:12]
Terry Gross
Let's talk about Jonathan Larson and Rent. You went to a workshop of Larson's show that was in the works at the time, Tick Tick Boom, which at the time was called Boho Days. It was in the workshop process. It was an autobiographical one person show, and that person was Larson. Describe what you initially saw and why you really identified with it.
- [13:37]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh, my gosh. You know, up on that stage was just this piano, bass, drums, guitar, and out came this guy named Jonathan, who I'd never known in my life before. You know, he was tall and lanky and had curly brown hair, and he just attacked this piano ferociously. And he was singing these songs about turning 30 and how he had this image or this sound that kept going off in his head. Tick, tick, Boom. He thought he was going to explode because he was a writer of rock musicals that nobody wanted to produce because he lived in the fourth floor walk up of an apartment down on Greenwich with a bathtub in the kitchen where all the roommates had to switch off on who could use it at what time. He was an amazing performer and he was singing these songs through the most amazing rock music that was giving me goosebumps all over my arms. And, you know, here was the question. Should he keep writing rock musicals that nobody wants to produce, or should he take a job as an advertising copywriter where he'll finally have some money and get health insurance and a better apartment and maybe be able to go on a vacation? And what do I do? Do I sell out? Or do I keep pursuing my passion and I thought, how is this guy telling my life story when I've never even met him before? Because I felt exactly the same way as a 25 year old Booker who really wanted to be a producer.
- [15:14]
Terry Gross
And his goal also was to write a show that spoke to his life and the people he knew and his generation. Did you identify with that goal?
- [15:22]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh my God. You know, Jonathan said about the shows that were happening in the late 80s into the early 90s. Those aren't our characters, that's not our music, those aren't our stories. And you know, the first shows that meant something to me were like A Chorus Line where I looked up on that stage, I'm a 14 year old kid, and they're telling stories of their lives. It was a genuinely contemporary musical with a sort of contemporary score and that I knew right then and there. That's what I love.
- [15:57]
Terry Gross
So when he said that the shows on Broadway aren't telling our stories, what was on Broadway at the time?
- [16:03]
Jeffrey Seller
You had the four mega musicals from England. You had Cats, Les Mis, Phantom and Saigon. And basically that's it. Like we were not making musicals during the 80s and the 90s on Broadway. I'll give you an example, Terry. In 1995, the year before Rent, there were only two musicals nominated for best musical. One was Sunset Boulevard, Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical. And one was a show called Smokey Joe's Cafe, that was a review of songs by Lieber and Stoller. So Sunset Boulevard actually won best score and best book by default. Two musicals. And that's where the industry was in the late 80s into the 90s.
- [16:53]
Terry Gross
Why do you think that was true?
- [16:58]
Jeffrey Seller
I think one big reason was aids. Look at the number of artists we lost. Howard Ashman, Michael Bennett. And look at the artists we lost that we don't even know. And I think it was also about economics. And for some reason Broadway was having a hard time attracting investment dollars in the 80s into the 90s.
- [17:23]
Terry Gross
So you offered to produce Boho Days, decided to rename it Tick Tick Boom. And you convinced Larson to do that. And in serendipity, you were getting fired from your booking job and the person you were working for said, your heart really isn't into this. You should just like leave and go produce. We're firing you. And as Chu was firing you, Larson is returning a call.
- [17:47]
Jeffrey Seller
Yes, it actually.
- [17:48]
Terry Gross
And you couldn't take the call. So that seemed like real serendipity.
- [17:53]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh my gosh.
- [17:54]
Terry Gross
And then, you know, you offered to produce that first. Well, really second show that he had written and then you decided it wasn't really working. You had several problems with it. What were some of those problems?
- [18:11]
Jeffrey Seller
I couldn't raise the money. You know, in many ways, when we were working on that show, he had told me that he had shared it with Sondheim once. And Sondheim, I said, well, what did Sondheim say? He said, that show is just you whining about Superbia. And in some ways, Superbia was the.
- [18:27]
Terry Gross
Show he'd written before the music.
- [18:28]
Jeffrey Seller
That's correct. And you know, those listeners who remember the movie Tick Tick Boom that Lin Manuel directed with Andrew Garfield knows that they had done this big workshop of Superbia and nothing happened from it. And when Jonathan calls his agent after Suburbia doesn't get picked up by any theater, she says, pick up your pencil and go back to work. So he writes Tick Tick Boom and or Boho days. And in so many ways, it's his rant about not getting Superbia produced, at least according to Sondheim. And for me, it was a show about how do I stay true to my dreams without selling out. And guess what? Every theme, every motif that's in Tick Tick Boom ultimately finds its way to the better show. And that's rent.
- [19:22]
Terry Gross
So how did you convince him to stop writing Tick Tick Boom and instead start writing. What was his next idea? Which is a musical, a contemporary musical based on Puccini's opera La Boheme.
- [19:39]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah. Early on in our professional friendship, he shared with me this idea that someone had given him to make a version of La Boheme that would take place in the East Village in which Mimi would have AIDS instead of tuberculosis. And I thought it was a genius idea from the moment he told me so. He was kind of working on two things at once. But the thing about Tick Tick Boom was that if you took away all the other instruments and he was just at the piano and he was in a rehearsal room and doing it for a bunch of people that could be investors. It seemed as he was getting older, it seemed to lose its luster. Like, I wonder if he had moved on himself emotionally, because at some point, as we were trying to get Tick Tick Boom done, it just sounded like a 30 year old who's afraid he's never going to be successful. And I'm not sure audiences really are going to be that sympathetic to a 30 year old who's already in despair that he's not going to be successful. Because most of us would say, well, get on with it.
- [20:42]
Terry Gross
Let me reintroduce you here if you're just joining us, my guest is Broadway producer Jeffrey Seller. His new memoir is called Theater Kid. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Griffin Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
- [20:55]
Lin Manuel Miranda
525,600 minutes. 525,000 moments.
- [21:03]
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- [21:54]
Terry Gross
Request to claw back two years of previously approved funding for public media. The rescissions package now moves on to the Senate. This move poses a serious threat to local stations and public media as we know it. Please take a stand for public media today@goacpr.org thank you.
- [22:16]
Lin Manuel Miranda
You know those things you shout at the radio or maybe even at this very NPR podcast on NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me we actually say those things on the radio and on the podcast. We're rude across all media.
- [22:28]
Jeffrey Seller
We think the news can take it.
- [22:29]
Lin Manuel Miranda
Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:35]
Terry Gross
Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesper, digital producer at FRESH air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
- [22:41]
Jeffrey Seller
One of the things I do is.
- [22:42]
Terry Gross
Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week. An exclusive. So subscribe@whyy.org fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. How do you deliver criticism to someone like Jonathan Larson without destroying him?
- [23:12]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh, Lord. Jonathan invited me to the first ever staged reading of Rent in the spring of 93. Stage reading means actors are reading and singing in front of music stands with the scripts in front of them. And there may be a band or a piano and a drum, and I go down. It was at New York Theater Workshop. It was a hot day in June, and I actually had met this guy who wanted to be a producer, and I knew came from a very wealthy family in Australia. So I thought maybe if I bring this guy and he loves it, I can get him to invest. That guy leaves an intermission, and the reading starts with the song Rent, and it's like a wallop. It's great. But then immediately the show kind of disintegrates into all these different songs about life in the East Village. And it really has no spine. It doesn't have a plot that's coming through yet. The characters of Mimi and Roger and Collins and Angel are not coming through. And that reading kind of drones on for almost three hours. It's like 90 degrees in there. And then this other guy who was there that I was with says, well, Jonathan's very talented, but he should just try something else. He should just work on something else. And then Jonathan calls me and says, okay, let's go to dinner. I want to hear what you think. So the first thing about criticism is, don't offer it till you asked, right? You got to wait until they say, what did you think? And sitting at Diane's Hamburgers on the Upper west side, when he said, what do you think? Then I really had to pause because I didn't want to hurt his feelings, and I was afraid that he might reject me. But you always start with praise. And I talked about how great that opening song, Rent, was, and I talked about how great the environment was. And he said, yeah, but what else? And that's when I said, I don't understand the story. I don't get the characters. Are you trying to write a play, or are you trying to write a collage of life in the East Village? And he looked at me, and he was like, no, I'm trying to write a play. And I said, well, then you have to bring forth the story, because right now I'm not getting it.
- [25:33]
Terry Gross
So during the final dress rehearsal of Rent, Jonathan Larson went home early complaining of an upset stomach. A stomach ache. And by the next morning, he was dead. And the day that he died, that was the day of the first preview that was scheduled of Rent. What we know now is he died of a tear in his aorta, probably caused by Marfan syndrome, which is a genetic disease that weakens the body's connective tissue. First of all, he didn't have health insurance. If he had health insurance, do you think it might have been diagnosed, and he might still be alive.
- [26:10]
Jeffrey Seller
He had visited two hospitals in the week before he ultimately died, and neither of them had diagnosed it properly. Had he had health insurance and a doctor who was his personal advocate, would the outcome have been different? I don't know, but I know what it means to not have health insurance, and I know how scary that is.
- [26:38]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Because you went through a lot of your life without it.
- [26:40]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah.
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Terry Gross
So describe for us how you heard the news about Jonathan Larson's death and what that day was like for you, including deciding what to do that night, which was to be the night of the first dress rehearsal.
- [26:56]
Jeffrey Seller
I woke up that morning euphoric after the dress rehearsal, and I had given huge praise to Jonathan after the show, saying, you did it. You made the show. It's great. He was happy to hear that praise, and he described that he wasn't feeling well to me, but that morning after. So I woke up, I was like, you know, I was picking out, what sweater do I want to wear tonight? What clothes? And after I went to my own therapy appointment, I took the R train to the office, and when I got there, everybody's head was down. And my own general manager said, jeffrey, I have something terrible to tell you. Jonathan Larson died last night, and I was in shock. And then I was immediately struck by the fact that. Holy. He. He wrote his own life, and he wrote his own death. This is a man who wrote the. The song for Roger. One song, Glory. One song before I go. And I thought, did he know he was going to die? I thought, did he know he was going to die? I was maybe. Maybe I wasn't shocked. Maybe it all made its own dramatic sense. But I was sad, and I was crushed. And I also somehow knew in that moment, he would become a legend.
- [28:47]
Terry Gross
Well, that's a very famous story now in Broadway history. What about deciding to go through with the dress rehearsal and what form?
- [28:56]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah, you know, I was on the phone with Jim Nicola, the artistic director at New York Theatre Workshop, and what he said is he was afraid that the kids in the show would not be safe to try to do all the complicated maneuvers, choreography, staging, backstage and onstage, given this trauma that we had all just experienced. So they were gonna do a reading of the show for family and. And friends of Jonathan. And, in fact, that night, we all came into the theater, sat down, and they started doing the show sitting at those famous silver metal tables that were the set of Rent. And it was so powerful, hearing Adam Pascal sing one song, Glory. It was so powerful. Hearing Wilson Heredia sing I'll cover you with Jesse Martin. And then by the end of the first act, when they were in the Life Cafe doing La Vie Boheme, there was just this moment that Daphne Rubin Vega, who was playing Mimi, just got up on that table and she started dancing. And then Wilson Heredia as Angel got up and then Nadina got up. And then the entire cast did all the choreography on that table to La Vie Boheme. And the first act ended with a sense of euphoria.
- [30:16]
Terry Gross
I'm going to let you choose. What would you rather hear right now, Rent or once on Glory, oh, Glory. Okay, here we go.
- [30:25]
Lin Manuel Miranda
One song, Glory. One song before I go Glory. One song to leave behind find One song, One last refrain Glory from the pretty boy frontman who wasted opportunity. One song he had the world at his feet Glory. In the eyes of a young girl, a young girl Find glory beyond the cheap colored lights. One song before the sun sets Glory. On another empty life Time flies, time dies. Glory. One praise of glory.
- [31:37]
Terry Gross
Glory.
- [31:41]
Lin Manuel Miranda
One place of glory.
- [31:48]
Terry Gross
Glory. That was Adam Pascal singing one song, Glory from the original cast recording of Rent. So I think that Rent won the Pulitzer Prize at more or less the same time that Larson died. They're like very close to each other. What was it like to go through the honor and the, I'm sure, like normal feeling of jubilation having won a Pulitzer and at the same time still be grieving for Jonathan Larson?
- [32:27]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh, it was it was the best of times and worst of times because the show's success was potent and thrilling and changing my life. And yet I was also filled with the loss of Jonathan and I think a little bit of guilt that he didn't get to go with us because it was going to change his life. He had only just quit the Moondance Diner as a waiter two months before we started rehearsal. He still lived in that fourth floor walk up and he didn't get to enjoy all of that. And I felt badly and I felt a little bit guilty.
- [33:16]
Terry Gross
Well, let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Seller and he's written a new memoir called Theater A Broadway Memoir. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air. On the plus side, you get sponsor free listening to over 25 NPR podcasts. On the minus side, you get fewer chances to tap fast forward.
- [33:37]
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On your podcast player.
- [33:38]
Terry Gross
On the plus side, you get to support something you care about. On the minus side, you like challenges and think this Makes it too easy. So why don't you join us on the plus side of things with NPR? Learn more and sign up at plus.NPR.org Decades ago, Brazilian women made a discovery they could have an abortion without a doctor thanks to a tiny pill. That pill spawned a global movement helping millions of women have safe abortions regardless of the law. Hear that story on the network from NPR's Embedded and Futuro Media. Wherever you get your podcasts, since you're a producer and part of your job is raising the money needed to produce the show and rent the theater, like I said in the introduction, people might assume you came from money when the story is the opposite. So describe your neighborhood that was known as Cardboard Village.
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Jeffrey Seller
Okay. My father, who had inherited his family business, which was a tool business, bankrupt it by overspending and through his own manic behavior. And then he was in a motorcycle accident on I94 in between Detroit and Kalamazoo, which caused brain damage, aphasia, a kind of dementia, and disenabled him from working. Our family wound up on welfare and we lost our nice house in our nice neighborhood. And we had to move to this neighborhood that the kids called Cardboard Vill. Cause the houses were made of those shingles, those tar shingles, instead of bricks. And instead of having basements, they were built on these 800 square foot slabs of concrete. You know, one teeny bathroom, maybe a carport, but certainly no garage. And that was the neighborhood where I grew up, ultimately.
- [35:35]
Terry Gross
And no basement meant there was no place to shelter if there was a tornado.
- [35:38]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah. So they would, like, tease you and say, you know, this is Michigan. So they'd tease you and say, hi, you, nowhere to go. Where do you go if there's a tornado? And I would go, I don't know.
- [35:48]
Terry Gross
One of the craziest stories for me in the book, your Hebrew school teacher teaching about the Warsaw Ghetto during the Hitler regime, where all the Jews were kind of forced to stay and there was no food. I mean, it was horrible conditions. And a kid asks her, was there anything contemporary like that? And she says, yes. Cardboard Village.
- [36:14]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah.
- [36:14]
Terry Gross
I just think, like, that's insane. Like, I don't care how poor your community was, it wasn't taking place during the Holocaust. What was your reaction when you heard the comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto to your home?
- [36:27]
Jeffrey Seller
I wanted to disappear. I wanted to. I was afraid I was going to be found out. I was burning red. I was. My heart was beating a million miles a minute and I was holding in tears. And what I realized in Retrospect is that it was inconceivable to this teacher that anyone in this class at Temple Israel could be that poor.
- [36:56]
Terry Gross
Right. And you weren't very comfortable with the temple because it was. Most of the members were from an adjoining neighborhood that actually had money, which you did not.
- [37:04]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah.
- [37:05]
Terry Gross
So then your father, because of his traumatic brain injury, he became a summons server, you know, serving papers.
- [37:15]
Jeffrey Seller
That's right. Summons subpoenas, all the different court orders to people in trouble.
- [37:20]
Terry Gross
Yeah. So he dealt with deadbeat debts, prospective divorces, delinquent mortgage holders, and when you were available, he'd take you with him. But it sounded like a terrifying experience because he was a reckless driver. And his way of serving papers was often very confrontational. Like, there were incidents that really left you terrified. Would you describe one of them?
- [37:42]
Jeffrey Seller
Well, I have this, like, very strong memory of him. Like, come on, go serve papers with me. And I didn't want to. I didn't like it. I didn't like going to these neighborhoods that were far from our house and leaving, you know, the house. But he wanted my company so badly, so I would say yes. And I remember once going to this one neighborhood where, you know, the house doesn't look that different from ours. It actually might have been a little bigger. And he can't. Like, he's banging on the door and no one's coming. And then finally this woman comes out and she has like, you know, like she's wearing like a T shirt dress, and she's like, kind of shaking her head no, no, no, meaning, like, whoever he's looking for isn't here. And then from the other side of the house, this guy comes around and he starts trying to kind of run away. And my 6 foot 3, 250 pound father starts chasing after him. And then he winds up seeing, you know, getting him on the sidewalk in front of the next door neighbor's house. And they're like, talking, and I like, roll down the window so I can hear it. And then the neighbor, who's actually living in the house next door, opens the door and says, leave him alone. And then my father serves him the paper. And then that guy screams to my father, get out of here, you pig. And he used the F word. And then my father ran up and put his hand through his window.
- [39:13]
Terry Gross
So, you know, during all of this, you fall in love with theater. And was theater for you the kind of place you wanted it to be for others? Like, you leave life outside the theater door and you immerse yourself in the characters or in directing or producing the show. And that becomes your world while you're in the theater.
- [39:31]
Jeffrey Seller
I guess it became the greatest new world I could have ever discovered, this world where we make plays and invent dialogue and create characters and build sets. And I took it very seriously. And I was incredibly rewarded by the audience reactions.
- [39:55]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Because you started off acting. Sure. And then I love this story. You were in a play called Popcorn Pete. It was a school play. Right.
- [40:05]
Jeffrey Seller
It was the community. It was the youth theater play.
- [40:07]
Terry Gross
Yeah, right, right. It was the youth theater play from a local theater company that was an adult company, but they had a kids part.
- [40:15]
Jeffrey Seller
Correct.
- [40:16]
Terry Gross
And it didn't do well. You know, the theater was half filled. And you decided it's because, like, it's not a good play, it's not a good title. Why would anybody come? And so you asked to be on the committee that chooses the plays that the kids perform in a way. Like that's your first time you were a producer and you were how old?
- [40:35]
Jeffrey Seller
13 years old.
- [40:36]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And you had to convince the adults that you were worthy of being on the committee. So was that a very empowering feeling, like helping to choose the plays?
- [40:47]
Jeffrey Seller
Well, that was the first step I took toward becoming a producer because you know what the most important decision I ever make is as a producer? What play to produce, and is that a reflection of my aesthetic, my values, my likes, the characters I care about? So that was a huge moment for me. And I want to also say, at the time I didn't even know it. I just knew we could do better. And I started reading plays. Every weekend I would read all these different plays, and that's where I started to learn what makes a good play and a bad play.
- [41:24]
Terry Gross
Well, let me reintroduce you. My guest is theater producer Jeffrey Seller, author of the new memoir Theater Kid. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air. It all starts with listening to the person in front of you and the person you'll never meet, to the person living a story and the journalist who helps you see it in a new light. The NPR network is built on listening with microphones in every region. So we're there anytime a voice or sound demands to be heard. Hear stories in the first person. Hear the bigger picture on NPR.
- [41:58]
Jeffrey Seller
On NPR's through line.
- [42:00]
Lin Manuel Miranda
Schoolteachers are going to be the ones.
- [42:02]
Jeffrey Seller
That rebuild our society in a way that is more cohesive. Basically, where soldiers set down their arms. Schoolteachers need to pick up their books.
- [42:10]
Terry Gross
How the U.S. department of Education tried to fix a divided nation Listen to Throughline.
- [42:16]
Jeffrey Seller
Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:20]
Terry Gross
The best kind of celebrity interview is one where you find out that the person who made a thing you love also thinks in a way that you love.
- [42:30]
Jeffrey Seller
Nothing is more foreign than when Ariel says in the Little Mermaid, I want to be where the people are.
- [42:36]
Lin Manuel Miranda
I don't want to be where the people are.
- [42:38]
Jeffrey Seller
I just don't.
- [42:40]
Terry Gross
I'm Rachel Martin. Listen to the Wild Card podcast only from npr. So you devote some time in your book to your personal story of being gay and it taking you a while to realize it. And a great story is you had, like, made out with a girl or two and, you know, just kissing.
- [43:00]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah.
- [43:00]
Terry Gross
And then you're with some friends, I think, at a party, and you're playing some kind of game where you're supposed to reveal a truth about another person or ask them a different question. It wasn't exactly Truth or Dare, but it was kind of like a cousin of that.
- [43:14]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Terry Gross
So one of the girls at the party tells you that you're gay. And this is before you recognize that or at least admitted it to yourself. Can you explain how that happened and what your reaction was?
- [43:26]
Jeffrey Seller
Yeah. Laurie Reznik.
- [43:28]
Terry Gross
You remember the name?
- [43:29]
Jeffrey Seller
How I remember that name? Yeah. This was like a game after the eighth grade kind of graduation party at Joanne Cooper's house. And Laurie's like, I just want you to know, Jeffrey, you're gay. And at this moment, I'm still 13 years old, and I was very late to adolescence. So, in fact, at that moment, I had never had. I hadn't really ever thought about sex, and I had never thought about being gay, and I'd never had a gay fantasy. So when she told me that, I was embarrassed, ashamed, and anxious. And you know what was sweet? After that party, like, I was sleeping over at my friend's house, and my best friend, Bruce Rosen, who was definitely not gay and who was a jock and was obsessed with girls, he said, by the way, I don't care what Laurie said. I thought that was so sweet.
- [44:30]
Terry Gross
You know what? I'm thinking this might be a good time to play a song from Avenue Q.
- [44:36]
Jeffrey Seller
Yes, please.
- [44:38]
Terry Gross
It's a song sung by two puppets who are roommates, and one of them's straight and one of them's gay, but won't admit it, maybe not even to himself. And so this is a duet about that. And maybe. Did you relate to this duet?
- [44:53]
Jeffrey Seller
Not really, because by the time I came in contact with Avenue Q, I'd obviously been gay and on the screen.
- [44:58]
Terry Gross
No, no, Obviously. But didn't bring back that memory.
- [45:00]
Jeffrey Seller
Oh, that is. Well, no. When you just. Now when I told you that story and you said, let's play a song from Avenue Q, I laughed because, Terry, I had never put those two events together in my life. Oh, and I love that you just discovered that. That is a new discovery that Bruce Rosen could have been singing to me. If you were gay, that'd be okay. I mean. Cause, hey, I'd like you anyway. I love it.
- [45:29]
Terry Gross
Great. Well, let's hear it.
- [45:31]
Lin Manuel Miranda
If you were gay, that'd be okay. I mean. Cause, hey, I'd like you anyway. Because, you see, if it were me, I would feel free to say that I was gay. But I'm not gay.
- [45:51]
Terry Gross
Ninky. Please.
- [45:52]
Lin Manuel Miranda
I am trying to read. What if you were queer? Okay. I'd still be here. Nikki. I am trying to read this year after year, Nikki. Because you're dear to me and I know that you would accept me, too.
- [46:12]
Jeffrey Seller
I would.
- [46:13]
Lin Manuel Miranda
If I told you today, hey, guess what? I'm gay, but I'm not gay. I'm happy.
- [46:20]
Terry Gross
So that's a song from the original cast recording of Avenue Q, a show that was produced by my guest, Jeffrey Seller, author of the new memoir Theater Kid. One last question. Do you see Broadway as headed in a particular direction? Do you see any interesting risks being taken?
- [46:38]
Jeffrey Seller
Now, the one thing that I look back on with Jonathan and his goals to write stories about our characters, our stories, our music, is that that value, our music, our characters, our stories started with Rent, and it continued on from Avenue Q and in the Heights to Hamilton. But it also continued on through so many other shows that I didn't produce, like the Pulitzer Prize winning Next to Normal or Dear Evan Hansen. And even in its own fun way, maybe Happy Ending, which is now about two robots who fall in love. So when I look at Broadway and I see all these contemporary musicals, I say, bless you, Jonathan. Because every single one of these musicals is standing on his shoulders in some way, shape or form. And I think if we keep making musicals about who we are today. And by the way, Hamilton does that too, even though it's telling a story that's 250 years old. So if we keep making those musicals, I think we're gonna be in great shape.
- [47:50]
Terry Gross
Jeffrey, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure.
- [47:56]
Jeffrey Seller
Thank you so much. It's been my great, great delight and pleasure.
- [48:01]
Terry Gross
Jeffrey Seller's new memoir is called Theater Kid. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we remember Bill Moyers and listen back to interviews we recorded over the years. Moyers was a presidential aide to Lyndon Johnson, helped put together Johnson's Great Society program, then became Johnson's press secretary. He later crossed over and became an award winning journalist and PBS host. He died last Thursday at age 91. I hope you'll join us. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [48:36]
Lin Manuel Miranda
How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the Caribbean by Providence, impoverished and squalor, grow up to be a hero and a scholar? The ten dollar founding father without a father got a lot farther by working a lot harder, by being a lot smarter, by being a self starter. By 14 they placed him in charge of Betrayed, Enchanted and every day while slaves were being slaughtered and carted away across the waves, he struggled and kept his guard up. Inside he was longing for something to be a part of. The brother was ready to beg, steal, borrow or barter. Then a hurricane came and devastation rained a man who saw his future drip dripping down the train But a pentue was his temple, connected it to his brain and he wrote his first refrain, a testament to his pain. Well, the word got around. They said this kid is insane man took a book collection just to send him to the mainland. Get your education, don't forget from whence you came and the world's gonna know your name. What's your name man? Alexander Hamilton. My name is Alexander Hamilton and there's a million things I haven't done. But just you wait, just you wait. When he was 10, his father split full of it, dead ridden. Two years later, see Alex and his mother, bedridden, half dead. Electric vehicles are supposed to be the future, fast, clean and everywhere. But now even automakers are pulling back. What happened?
- [50:25]
Terry Gross
The pace of electrification was not going to be as fast as everybody thought.
- [50:29]
Lin Manuel Miranda
On the Sunday story from up first, hear how shifting politics and changing demand are slowing down the EV revolution. Listen now to the Sunday story on the up first podcast from npr.
- [50:42]
Terry Gross
Hola. It's Sarah Gonzalez at Planet Money. When we say we want you to understand the economy, sure, we mean tariffs and global supply chains and interest rates. But also we shot a satellite into space, we made our own vodka, became a record label, made a comic book, all to help you make better sense of the world around you. Listen to the Planet Money podcast from npr.