A Veteran Stunt Performer Shares Tricks Of The Trade

Summary

Fresh Air: A Veteran Stunt Performer Shares Tricks Of The Trade

Episode Release Date: May 30, 2025

Hosts: Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley
Guest: David Leitch, Hollywood Director and Former Stuntman

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1. Introduction to David Leitch's Journey

David Leitch, a renowned Hollywood director, shares his unconventional entry into the film industry as a stunt performer. Leitch's career soared when he doubled for Brad Pitt in iconic films like Fight Club, Troy, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, and Ocean's Eleven. His exceptional skills eventually led him to roles as an action coordinator and stunt coordinator before transitioning into directing major action-packed films such as Bullet Train, Fast and Furious Presents: Hobbs & Shaw, and Deadpool 2. In this episode, Leitch discusses his latest directorial venture, The Fall Guy, inspired by the 1980s TV series of the same name.

2. Behind-the-Scenes of "The Fall Guy"

Leitch delves into the intense action sequences of The Fall Guy, describing stunts that include high falls, motorcycle jumps, and explosive battlefield chases. He emphasizes the balance between showcasing thrilling action and preserving the secrecy of stunt techniques.

David Leitch [02:17]: "It's like magic. We're always reinterpreting the classic gags and tricks."

3. Stunt Techniques and Safety Protocols

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the meticulous planning and safety measures involved in performing high-risk stunts. Leitch explains the importance of trusting the rigging team and achieving a meditative state to maintain focus during dangerous maneuvers.

Terry Gross [04:10]: "You're standing on the ledge, trusting your team... it's about calming your nerves and having confidence in the process."

4. Memorable Stunts and Accidents

Leitch recounts memorable stunts, including a record-breaking car roll that earned a place in the Guinness Book of Records. He describes the technical aspects and the team's dedication to pushing the boundaries of stunt performance.

Leitch [08:05]: "We had hoped to set a world record for the number of cannon rolls, and Logan Halliday achieved eight and a half rolls."

Additionally, he shares a personal anecdote about an unintended car crash while doubling for Brad Pitt in The Mexican, highlighting the unpredictability and danger inherent in stunt work.

Leitch [14:30]: "I essentially destroyed both cars in one morning, but thankfully, I wasn't hurt."

5. Transition from Stuntman to Director

Leitch discusses the challenges and emotional toll of shifting from performing stunts to coordinating and directing them. He reflects on the increased responsibility for others' safety and how this perspective has deepened his appreciation for stunt performers.

Leitch [05:26]: "As a stunt coordinator, you're responsible for the safety of your team, which makes it harder to watch others perform stunts than when you're doing them yourself."

6. The Evolution of Stunts in Film

The conversation touches on how stunt performances have evolved, especially with the advent of CGI. Leitch expresses his preference for practical stunts, emphasizing that genuine action on screen creates a more visceral experience for the audience.

Leitch [26:38]: "I feel that the difference in stakes when I sense the action is real... there's an authenticity that CGI can't replicate."

7. The Impact of CGI and Future Trends

While acknowledging the growing role of CGI in modern filmmaking, Leitch stresses the enduring value of practical stunts. He believes that audiences will always crave the tangible thrill that real stunts provide, despite technological advancements.

Leitch [26:38]: "Good storytelling combined with real stunts creates a connection with the audience that CGI alone cannot achieve."

8. Physical Toll and Personal Injuries

Leitch openly discusses the physical demands of stunt work, listing numerous injuries sustained over his career, including torn meniscus in both knees, broken ankles and wrists, concussions, and a knocked-out tooth. These experiences underscore the risks stunt performers take to bring action to life.

Leitch [27:29]: "I've torn my meniscus in both knees, broken my ankle, and even broke my wrist in four places."

9. Inspirations from Classic Films and Techniques

Drawing inspiration from early Westerns and martial arts cinema, Leitch explains how classic stunt choreography informs his modern approach. He highlights the importance of reinventing traditional stunts to keep them fresh and engaging for contemporary audiences.

Leitch [29:13]: "I love going back to those old Westerns and finding ways to reinterpret the magic tricks and choreography to make them my own."

10. The Future of Stunt Performing

Concluding the discussion, Leitch reflects on the necessity for stunt performers to adapt and evolve as they age, transitioning into roles that require less physical strain while still contributing to the art of action filmmaking.

Leitch [36:02]: "You have to evolve. Many stunt performers continue performing into their later years by shifting their specialties, ensuring their longevity in the industry."

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Conclusion

David Leitch's insights provide a comprehensive look into the world of stunt performing and action filmmaking. His experiences underscore the blend of artistry, physics, and raw courage required to execute breathtaking stunts while ensuring safety and authenticity. For aspiring stunt performers and film enthusiasts alike, Leitch's journey from performing high-risk stunts to directing blockbuster action films offers valuable lessons on dedication, innovation, and the relentless pursuit of excellence in the cinematic arts.

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Transcript

[Terry Gross]

Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes, that is what it is called.

[Terry Gross]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dave Davies]

This is FRESH air. I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today, David Leitch is a successful Hollywood director who got into the business in an unusual way as a stuntman performing daring feats as stunt doubles for actors including Matt Damon and Keanu Reeves. His breakthrough was on Fight Club as a stunt doubled for Brad Pitt, who he worked with on several subsequent films including Troy, Mr. And Mrs. Smith and Ocean's Eleven. He became an action coordinator and stunt coordinator and eventually a director of big budget films. He directed Bullet Train, Fast and Furious Presents, Hobbs and Shaw, Deadpool 2 Atomic Blonde, and was an uncredited co director of the first John Wick movie. Today we're going to listen to the interview Terry recorded last year with David Leitch when his film the Fall Guy, starring Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt, was released. Inspired by the 1980s TV series the Fall Guy, it's about a stuntman who ends up having to execute spectacular stunts in his real life to save the film he's working on and regain the love of of the woman who's directing it. Terry's interview begins with the opening scene of the Fall Guy. It's a series of action sequences in which the stunts include tumbling down a rocky cliff, riding a motorcycle over the roofs of several cars, getting thrown through a bus window and running through a battlefield surrounded by explosions and getting blown off the ground. The sequence is narrated by Ryan Gosling's character over plenty of gunfire, explosions and shattering glass.

[David Leitch]

David Leitch, welcome to FRESH air. I really enjoyed the new film and your working career is pretty amazing. Do stunt doubles have a code kind of like magicians do, not to reveal certain trade secrets? And did that limit what you could reveal in the film?

[Terry Gross]

Can I just start by saying thank you for having me? Like I'm a huge fan and I'm very excited to be here.

[David Leitch]

Well, back at you. I'm a fan, so.

[Terry Gross]

But yeah, it is a little bit like magic. You know, I think we're always reinterpreting interpreting the classic gags and the classic tricks. And so, you know, that's what we did with Fall Guy. We sort of reimagined the big car jump, we reimagined the high fall from the helicopter. And there is a little secrecy. I think, you know, part of it for years, because it was such a business where it was passed down. It's apprenticeships. It's passed down from family, usually to kids. And it's hard to crack in and. And find someone to teach you because they didn't want to share the knowledge so much, you know, because it didn't. Again, like, it can be a really fun and lucrative business, and you want to share it with the people you want to share it with. I think in Fall Guy, we tried to pull the veil back just enough and not give too much away. You know, you see those fire stunts, we didn't really give the science behind that away. And there is a. You know, that's what's really amazing about stunts. I think people think it's a bunch of daredevils, and there's a little bit of that sensibility in stunt performers, but really there's a lot of physics and math and legacy tricks that, you know, get you through the day.

[David Leitch]

The first stunt that Ryan Gosling does on the film is jumping from alleged 12 stories high. And we see him wearing a harness, as stuntmen do in scenes like that. And the harness will eventually be erased in post production. When you do a stunt like that, and I'm sure you've done lots of those high falls, do you, like, say a prayer or meditate in the moments right before you jump? Like, what goes through your mind and how do you center yourself and prepare yourself?

[Terry Gross]

You know, I had many conversations on the set of Fall Gown with Ryan about that, because you're standing on the ledge, and ultimately, a lot of stunt work is trusting your team. Now, we had an incredible, what we call rigging team on the fall guy. Keir Beck is an Australian stunt performer, and I've known him since the Matrix years. He's now become one of the legendary stunt riggers in the business. And you're hooked up to this machine and you're trusting the physics of it, and you've rehearsed it, and you've seen the weight bags go down and up. But again, you're stepping off the ledge, and you have to have this ability to calm your nerves, trust in the process, have the confidence that we've tested this over and over, and it's going to go great. And so you do find a little bit of a meditative state and really just focusing on performance, that's how I do it. It's not unlike an athlete at the starting line, you really have to focus on the first step, and then your body takes over. And I think you wait, you hear that, Cue action, and you go.

[David Leitch]

Which made you more nervous doing stunts like that yourself or feeling responsible for Ryan Gosling's safety when he did the stunts?

[Terry Gross]

See, Terry, I knew you were gonna ask these hard questions. No, I think absolutely. As a stunt performer, when you move into being a stunt coordinator, it's harder because you have your friends that are doing the stunts and you're designing them, and you, you know, you are. You are responsible for their safety. And so, yeah, it's harder to see someone else do it than it is yourself, you know, and especially with my experience of them doing them so long, it's easier for me to do it and feel comfortable than to watch somebody else. Sometimes your heart goes through your chest.

[David Leitch]

Apparently, Ryan Gosling is afraid of heights. So there's a scene where he does the 12 story high jump, but also there's a scene with a helicopter falling from the helicopter. So how it's kind of cruel to put somebody with fear of heights in stunts like that. Like, how did you both sort that out?

[Terry Gross]

To be fair, he didn't necessarily bring it up. When we were working on the script together, he had a crippling fear of heights. And I think.

[David Leitch]

And so you didn't know that.

[Terry Gross]

I didn't know it until we were now having this negotiation about the first stunt. And we had been designing it and rehearsing it, you know, that the. I went that keer back that that stunt rigger we had actually simulated the high fall in a parking lot. We had a construction crane. We had built the same rig that we were going to be flying inside of that building. And we were rehearsing it at different heights, and we had the winches that lower you at sort of free fall speed set up. And I'm like, oh, we're gonna bring Ryan out for rehearsal. And it was that first day when we brought him out for rehearsal, he sort of confides in me. He's like, you know, I have a crippling fear of heights.

[David Leitch]

And I'm like, now you're telling me?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, now. Okay. And he's like, I'm sure there's a green screen version of this, right? There's absolutely. And I'm like, there is, but why don't we just take you up 10ft and then 20ft, and then you can kind of feel how the rig works and sort of, you know, build the trust in the system. And then ultimately, after that first day of rehearsal, he said, you know, I am playing a stunt performer, and I know we want to celebrate the real stunt performers doing it in this movie, but I also think I need to do this so I understand the character. And it's like, we're opening the movie, I'm going to do it. I'm in.

[David Leitch]

One stunt I think made it into the Guinness Book of Records. It was a car roll where the car overturned and rolled eight and a half times. And I think Logan Halliday was the stuntman. So did you know that he would go for eight and a half roles? Was that the plan or were you shocked when that happened?

[Terry Gross]

Well, we had hope for it. So early on in production, when we were working on the script, you know, I thought, like, if we're going to do this celebration of the stunt performer, it would be great if we sort of had aspirations to maybe set a record or do something that was like, hadn't been done before. And so I wrote in the script, you know, and Colt Sievers sets a world record for the number of cannon rolls. And I was kind of a little bit of like a tongue in cheek, like, if we set the world record, fine, if we don't. But the stunt team took it to heart and they were like, how do we do this? Let's do it. I'm like, okay, go for it. And so I have a long time collaborator and someone who I started in the business with as a stuntman way back in the day, Chris o' Hara. He was my stunt coordinator, second unit director on this film. And he took it upon himself like, we're gonna break the world record. So we got with special effects who were gonna build the cannon inside the car and build the safety cage. We got with picture cars to find the right car that the physics would work, we felt. And we went down the path of RD ing how to beat seven roles, which was Casino Royale several years ago. And it took a couple takes. You know, take one was a really great crash. And in any other movie you would say, that was epic. You know, the car flipped in a different way and like, it kind of went end over end and it created the kind of carnage that you wanted for the film. And it really would have worked narratively. And I actually told the guys, like, we can walk away now. But they were really excited about setting the record. And we'd had prepped for another car and so we waited till the next day when the conditions were a little bit better. Anyway, the next morning we had closer to when the tide came in. We had firm sand and we flipped the car and it went eight and a half rolls. And the crew went nuts because the stunt team had worked so hard on it. You know, they had spent three months, I'm saying R and D ing that and, you know, figuring out the physics of it all.

[David Leitch]

Can you explain in layman's language how you roll over a car, make it flip and keep rolling over?

[Terry Gross]

Again, it's physics. So he's going, let's say 80 miles an hour. He slides the car at a 90 degree angle. And the cannon is actually placed in the. Where the passenger seat is. And there's a pole that explain what a cannon is. A cannon is. It's a pneumatic press. So it's got a lot of compressed air that's sitting in the trunk of the car. And it shoves a metal pole into the ground. It's in a cylinder that's into the ground and that basically stops the car in its tracks and flips it to where the car is like a light, a catapult. Okay. So as the car slides and he hits the button for that cannon and the pole gets shoved into the ground, the car flips, but it still has the speed, the directional speed of the 80 miles an hour. So now it's flipping and traveling 80 miles an hour. And, you know, they were hoping that obviously it would be barrel rolling, but yeah, it's like a catapult inside your car that you press the button and it stops you in your tracks and flips it.

[David Leitch]

So the car doesn't survive, but the driver has to. How does the driver stay alive?

[Terry Gross]

So inside the car, we build a cage. And the cage is built with steel pipe and welding, and it's designed to create just a box that protects the driver. And then the driver is in what we call a suspension harness. So they're saving their back. So they're really almost suspended above the seat. And there's bungee system that's allowing them to take the shock. And then they're in a harness that's neck restraints. And there's a lot of things that's just built in to protect the driver that I'm not going to say it's foolproof, but that protection of the driver just gets better and better every year with more innovation and more stuff that's coming from the racing world. And. Yeah, and there's just a legacy of that stunt and information and how it's done that gets passed down generation to generation.

[David Leitch]

You mentioned you've been in unintentional car crashes while doing stunts. Can you tell us about one of them?

[Terry Gross]

I was doubling Brad Pitt on the Mexican. And I'd just gotten the call. I was actually working in Vancouver doubling for Jean Claude Van Damme. And I got the call to do this movie, the Mexican. And I actually told Jean Claude, I have to leave. I'm gonna go double Brad Pitt. He wasn't necessarily excited or happy about that. But I didn't wanna lose the opportunity. Cause I had just done Fight Club. And I was, you know, excited to sort of build this relationship with that actor. Because as a stunt performer, you. You hope that you get to double an actor and you get to do multiple films with them. And, like, you build a career that way. So I fly down to Mexico. We're shooting in this really small town, Real de Catorce. It's like one road in, one road out. And I get there, and that morning, like, I wake up, and they're like, we got to get you to set right away. We have this car thing we want you to do. And really simple, actually. They had, in the middle of the desert, they'd poured a blacktop intersection to make it look like an intersection. And they were kind of doing a top shot over the street light. All I had to do was take the El Camino and drive it through the intersection fast. So I back up about 200ft, and I remember the stunt coordinator giving me the thumbs up. And it's like, action, action. And I drive the car, and the speedometer doesn't work in the El Camino. I mean, we have these old cars. You dress them up on the outside to film them. But sometimes they're not in the best condition otherwise. I'm getting close to the intersection, and I can hear the engine changing gears. But I'm not really thinking about it because I'm so excited. Like, I'm doubling Brad Pitt. This is amazing. Like, my career's on the rise. This is going to be awesome. And I hit the intersection, and where the blacktop. They had poured the blacktop, there was a bump, and I launch. And I launch up a couple feet, and I hit the. I hit the pavement. And my suspension loosens up, and I'm starting to drift. And I'm like, oh, God. And I can see the stunt coordinator on one side, like, you know, what are you doing? He's putting his hands up in the air. And I'm kind of heading towards Video Village, where everyone is filming it. And I'm, like, drifting there and everything's now slowed down in time, so I just crank the wheel the other way, and I start drifting towards the other El Camino, the backup El Camino, and I blind. I hit it. You know, I T boned the other El Camino, but I saved Video Village, and I'm just sitting in the car, and I basically destroyed both cars in one morning. It was not my greatest day on set.

[David Leitch]

Were you hurt?

[Terry Gross]

No, I wasn't. I'd scrubbed off enough speed where I was fine.

[David Leitch]

And they let you film.

[Terry Gross]

For a couple days until they decided, you know, maybe you should go home.

[David Leitch]

Really? So how did you keep working with Brad Pitt after that disastrous beginning?

[Terry Gross]

It was. I think he found it endearing. And, you know, I think everybody knows that when you're working on a set, there is a bandwidth for things to go wrong. But long and short, I think he just found it funny and endearing, and he knew that, you know, maybe cars weren't my specialty and that fights were. And so I got called for Troy pretty quickly after, and he's like, we got a great fight movie. You don't have to drive a car. You know, can you come to London and prep?

[David Leitch]

There's a line in your film in which Ryan Gosling says, it all hurts. Getting thrown out of a window, getting set on fire, it all hurts. So what is, like, the typical kind of pain that a stuntman experiences when they're not, like, injured, exactly, but it's just, like, the standard pain of doing that stunt?

[Terry Gross]

I have a lot of experience with that. You know, you talked about specialties and, like, you know, the car stunts and cars and fire and things like that, they actually hurt less sometimes, I think, because, you know, you've built in all these protocols to protect the performer, and there's a lot of science involved, but the meat and potatoes of stunt performing is just physical performance. And sometimes it's like, you know, getting thrown down a set of stairs and, you know, multiple takes and, you know how to protect yourself. And, you know. You know. You know, you're not gonna break anything, but you're gonna get a lot of bumps and bruises and twisted ankles and crooked necks and it. And. But that's just something that you accept. And so having been a fight guy, that was sort of my life. Like, you're doing fight scenes, you're getting, you know, whiplash from doing reactions and you're smashing through breakaway tables or you're, you know, getting thrown out a window. And, like, you just. Part of it is, like, the ability to be a little bit tough and have some pain tolerance and know that you're okay, that they're just bruises, but, you know, you get back up.

[David Leitch]

Okay, so you're in a little bit of pain. And then the director says, let's do another take. How do you feel when that happens working as a stuntman?

[Terry Gross]

You hate it, but you, you know, you're stoic about it. And it is sort of the contract that you sign in the sense of, like, the unwritten contract that you sign. Like, if you can get up, you should be going again. And, you know, and the. The stunt coordinator expects you to do that, too, because he's hired you and he doesn't want you to not make him look good in front of the director. I think for myself now being in the director chair, I have a lot more appreciation for, you know, the performers. And it's really like, if we get it on one take, why not, you know, check the gate? Like, why are we doing it again? You know, there is a. There's a great story from Fight Club, you know, and this is not to, you know, throw David Fincher under the bus, who's, like, one of my mentors, who I love, but we did that stairfall 12 times. 12. 12 takes. And I think the stunt double for Edward Norton was in boxer shorts. And, you know, we had figured out a way to pad the stairs. And, you know, the art department had faux painted. It looked like concrete. There were some safety things, but it's still launching yourself down a set of stairs, and it's like. And when I ask him to this day, like, david, which one did you use? And he's like, oh, take two.

[David Leitch]

So that's 10 takes that were not necessary.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, yeah. Like, what were you looking for? And again, like, I just know as a stunt performer, like, if it looks like a wreck and it was really compelling and painful and you got it on film, why are we going again? Like, you know, it's only gonna get, you know, the stunt performer only gets more cautious and tries to protect themselves even more. I mean, it's just instinct at that point.

[Dave Davies]

David Leach is a former stuntman who now produces and directs films. He spoke to Terry last year when his film the Fall Guy was released. We'll hear more of their conversation after this short break. And Justin Chang reviews the new Wes Anderson film the Phoenician Scheme. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

[Terry Gross]

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[David Leitch]

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[Terry Gross]

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[Terry Gross]

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[Terry Gross]

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[David Leitch]

You were part of a new generation of stunt performers when you started working, and one of the things that you're credited for bringing more reality to fight sequences, particularly martial arts fight sequences. And you studied martial arts when you were like college age or just after.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[David Leitch]

So what were some of the most unreal things that you didn't want to include in the fight scenes that you were part of? And what did you want to include?

[Terry Gross]

It's less about making them more grounded, in my opinion. I think it was more about bringing figuring out a way to bring that martial arts feeling and integrate it into Hollywood cinema. Like, I think for a long time, you know, I was a fan of like a lot of different Asian cinema, Korean and, you know, Chinese, Japanese cinema that had martial arts and the lead characters, everyone just knew how to fight and they could fight with a martial arts style. And whether it was a police drama or a heightened sci fi thing, every character knew how to fight. And it wasn't until the Matrix movies where the Wachowskis had sort of like, hey, we want to have that same vibe in Western cinema. And I think after that first Matrix film hit the ground where you saw Keanu and Laurence Fishburne fight in this dojo and there was the actors doing the fighting. I mean, that had not happened to that level in Western cinema before that, really. So it was like a light went off for myself and, you know, a core group of us who were sort of training together at the time Chad Stahelski, who co directed John Wick with me. We decided, like, we want to take that model and apply it to all the films that we're working on. Like, we want to train the actors to do the fights, and we want to bring martial arts to any sort of genre. It makes sense. Like, these characters know how to fight. Instead of, like, it's just a messy, sloppy, dramatic thing. It's like there will be a level of skill with these characters. And so we started to take that opportunity with a lot of different films. And we were sort of up and coming stunt coordinators. We were really specializing in fight choreography. And we did something that we learned from that Hong Kong team on the Matrix films. We would shoot and edit our own fight scenes to present to the directors and the producers. And through that, we built a name for ourself. And we also learned how to tell stories, and we also learned how to direct, you know, technically direct. We were shooting and editing these sequences and presenting them as, like, sort of finished ideas, like moving storyboards. And now it's something that is, like, standard.

[David Leitch]

There are jokes in the film about how the stunt double isn't allowed to show their face because you're not supposed to be thinking, oh, that's a stunt double. You're supposed to be thinking, it's the film's leading man or whoever the actor is that the stunt double is doubling for. And the audience needs to keep thinking it's the character, not somebody else stepping in to play that character, you know?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[David Leitch]

So there's jokes about you're not allowed to show your face. Your face has to be down. What was that like for you as a stuntman? Making sure that your face wasn't going to be seen? You're gonna be in awkward physical positions as it is. There's so much to focus on to keep yourself safe and to keep the stunt going in the way the stunt is supposed to go. And to add to that, don't show your face.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you do. You know, it was part of. It was definitely part of the. The old school mentality. It's like you. You learned how to, you know, hit a mini trampoline and jump in the air and, like, keep your head away from camera. And, like, you constantly. You know, it was a whole art form of, like, how to keep your head away from camera, like, always try to give them the back of your head. And you just got good at it, and you thought about it, and it was really sort of, you know, in the whole protocol of how you approached Any physical stunt, it's like, how am I going to hide my face and make it feel natural? Like, my hand is up at this point, just blocking my face. Now, it's kind of changed in the last decade or so because the ease of face replacement allows you to just let the stunt performer perform. And then, you know, if it's a few frames where we see a face, we can use a digital still and wrap it around their face. And with motion blur and simple visual effects, you can, you know, mask the stunt performer's profile or face or whatever. And it allows the performers more freedom in doing the action and not like, trying to, you know, again, contort their body to hide their face.

[David Leitch]

As a former stuntman and current director, do you worry at all that all the computer, special effects and CGI are going to make audiences or have already made audiences kind of numbed to all the risks that stunt performers actually take? Because you can now assume that it's all done in post production or most of it's done in post production with a green screen. So you're not so worried, as you might have been in the past about the risks and the technique and the art of stunt performers.

[Terry Gross]

Mm. I know that that's where the world is heading, and I think that that's okay. You know, for me, as someone who enjoys action films, I feel the difference in the stakes of what's happening on the screen with the characters when I feel that it's real. And so I think they'll always be the want for that, I hope, especially with. For, you know, for action film lovers, but actually just really good storytelling. Like, if the visual effects and the CGI can't deliver the reality of really feeling the stakes behind it all, then, you know, it's always gonna fall flat.

[David Leitch]

I would like you to give us a list of injuries that you sustained over the years as a stunt performer.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I have torn my meniscus in both knees. I have broke my ankle. I have broken my wrist in four places, and it was pinned back together. That's a crazy story. It was actually my first day on the Batman live show at Magic Mountain, and I was just rehearsing. I had not even gotten in the Batman costume, and I was so excited, and I got hired for the job. And, you know, sometimes that's when it happens. We were rehearsing this simple stunt where the car is sliding under a catwalk, and I had to jump off the car and grab the bar, and the car drives away. And then I would do a backflip and Land down and I went to do my backflip and I underrotated and I put my hand down and I broke my wrist in four places. I had two concussions and I have knocked out my front tooth. So that's pretty much comprehensive list of my injuries.

[David Leitch]

Have you seen a lot of, like, the early westerns, like movie and TV westerns, where stunts included just like jumping from a rocky formation onto a guy riding by on a horse or jumping onto a moving stagecoach or, you know, just tumbling down a hill falling off a horse? Sword fights in a lot of, you know, MGM kind of movies.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[David Leitch]

And I'm wondering what you think about that with the state of the art now, when you look back on those westerns or on the sword fight scenes, what do you think about?

[Terry Gross]

I love it. I mean, I think when, you know, I look again. I'm always looking at those movies when I'm prepping for a new film to find inspiration because it is sort of like, how do I reinvent the, the. The gag and make it my own? And, you know, it's a magic. It's. How do I reinvent the magic trick? How do I reinvent. Reinvent this dance and make the choreography my own? You know, the swashbuckling pirate choreography would be a fun experiment. Like, if I had a, a pirate movie, I would go back and watch, you know, Captain Blood and I would go back and watch Errol Flynn and watch all of that choreography and then, you know, take that, expand on it and make it my own. You look at the old Westerns like that's what Indiana Jones is, right? You know, the dragging under the, you know, dragging under the stagecoach by which. Which was Yakima Canuck, who did that first stagecoach gag. And then it's, you know, Spielberg repurposed it in, you know, Indiana Jones. And so I love going back, seeing what was done, finding ways to reinterpret it, you know. And, you know, Jackie was the master of doing that, too. Jackie Chan, you know, he really studied Buster Keaton, Harold Lloyd, Charlie Chaplin, and he applied it for all his films from, you know, the mid late 80s till today. You know, he's doing reinterpretations of a lot of their physical gags and a lot of times besting them.

[Dave Davies]

We're listening to Terry's interview recorded last year with film director and former stuntman David Leitch. We'll hear more of their conversation after this short break. This is FRESH air.

[Terry Gross]

Conductor Robert Franz says, a good melody.

[David Leitch]

Captures our attention and then it moves you through time.

[Terry Gross]

Music is architecture in time. If you engage in the moment with what you're listening to, you do lose a sense of the time around you. How we experience time. That's on the TED radio hour from NPR. When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it.

[Tonya Moseley]

For its historical, historical and moral clarity.

[Terry Gross]

On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the throughline podcast from NPR.

[David Leitch]

As NPR's daily economics podcast, the indicator has been asking businesses how tariffs are affecting their bottom line.

[Terry Gross]

I paid 800,000 today.

[Tonya Moseley]

You paid $800,000 in tariffs today?

[Terry Gross]

Yes.

[David Leitch]

Wow.

[Terry Gross]

And what that means for your bottom line.

[David Leitch]

Listen to the Indicator from Planet Money. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. When you were just getting started, and you weren't even getting started yet, you were hoping to get started. You had graduated college, I think you taught elementary school for a year, then went to LA and with some friends who were also aspiring stuntmen. And you lived together in a house that was nicknamed Stunt House. And it became kind of famous in the world of stuntmen and some directors because you had your backyard outfitted to practice stunts on. What did you have in the backyard?

[Terry Gross]

So we had rented this house and it actually was a, I think a family was living in Florida or the landlord was living in Florida. And I, I actually moved into this house. There was a friend of mine, Tim Rigby, I think, who actually had the lease. My friend was Brad Martin at the time. And another friend of mine, Brad Simonson, who's now a visual effects producer. And what we did in the backyard, we had bought a trampoline, an Olympic sized trampoline. And we were learning trampoline skills because it actually helps you for a couple reasons. One, for high falls, you know, when you're falling off of something, you want to be able to, you know, understand air awareness and get your head under and fall to your back, you know, into the pads. You always want to get to your back. So your trampoline allows you to train that, you know, that, that skill and that instinct at constant repetition, like you're doing, you're jumping up, you're doing a header, we call it, where you're just like landing on your back and bouncing, landing on your back and bouncing. And your body gets used to, you fall off of something, you get to your back. That's why trampoline is so crucial to the stuntman's training. So we had this in the backyard, and we just decided, you know, why don't we dig it into the backyard? It'd be great if we had, like, a flush with the ground. So one afternoon, we just got the shovels out. We didn't ask the landlord, and we dug a hole and sunk the trampoline into the ground. And then later that month, I think we bought cinder block, and we made it perfect, and we sort of really dressed it out. And it was funny that we stayed in that house for four years. Three, four years, and the landlord never said anything. And then we've always paid our rent on time. And we would train at this house in Redondo Beach. We'd fall off the roof. We would use the air ram. We would bounce on the trampoline. It was just fun times. It was really, really fun times. Training ourselves to be stunt people.

[David Leitch]

When you moved from the house, did the landlord notice that there was a big ditch for the trampoline?

[Terry Gross]

It's funny. That house stayed in sort of the stunt world for a long time, so we didn't want to. I remember when Chad came back from the Matrix movies, he just made, you know, some good money, and he's like, I'm going to buy the house. And we're like, what? You're gonna buy the house? And so he got someone in real estate. I think his brother was doing real estate at the time. And they reached out to the landlord, and they made an offer on the house. And then Chad ended up just to keep the trampoline. That's our mindset. Like, we wanted the trampoline more than the house. He's like, I'm gonna buy the house. I had already moved out. I was renting from Chris o' Hara and living in a different place, but he's like, I'm gonna buy this. So then Chad bought that house, and then he remodeled it over the years, and then he moved out and he sold it to another stunt performer from our generation, Hank Amos. And he kept the trampoline in the backyard. And I'm quite sure. I think it's still in the stunt community. I'm not sure who was bought in the house from Hank, but I think that house still exists, and I think the trampoline is still in the backyard.

[David Leitch]

Oh, that's so great. If you hadn't become a director, could you still be doing stunts? I don't know how old you are now, but at some point, your body really can take that.

[Terry Gross]

You can. You have to evolve. I mean, there's a Lot of great stunt performers that are still. That are, you know, my age that still perform, but they have to move into the things that weren't my specialty. I think, like, I would had to move into vehicles. There's some great drivers that are in their 60s and 70s that can still maneuver a car. You know, they just. The years behind the wheel of just the precision of all of the fine, you know, motor skill it takes to, like, hit your marks in that world and it's not so hard on your body. But being a fight double and being like the physical double that's, you know, getting ratcheted back from explosions or falling down the stairs or, you know, taking the big hits like, yeah, you can. I'm so grateful I was able to transition out of it because you don't want to be doing that at a certain age.

[David Leitch]

Yeah. So my last question to you. What is the first action film that you remember seeing? And do you have a favorite?

[Terry Gross]

Hmm. I feel like the first one that really connected with me was Lethal Weapon. And I don't know why that crazy character that Mel Gibson played, Riggs, like the classic trope. He's a live wire. He's a loose cannon. You know, as a teenage boy in the 80s, like, that just was, like, so fun and exciting for me. And I remember seeing the action and watching it on hbo. Another one that was really impactful for me, obviously, in my martial arts world, is I watched Kung Fu Theater as a kid on channel 18. And I remember there were a couple of my friends in high school. We would watch it on Saturday night and would come on at midnight and we would, like, someone would come over to walk over to somebody's house and we would all watch it together until, like, two in the morning and drive our parents nuts.

[David Leitch]

So Kung Fu Theater was a TV series that showed a different kung fu movie?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, they would.

[David Leitch]

Martial arts movie.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, they would show these classic, like, Shaw Brothers movies or like, you know, dubbed movies from Hong Kong. And it was on the local. The local sort of station, you know, it was called Kung Fu Theater. And I'm sure they got the rights cheap so they could air these, you know, sort of kung fu movies from the 70s. And it was the best. And I remember trying to, like, the next day, you know, play, fight. You know, I build a. Put a heavy bag up in my garage, and my parents are like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm going to teach myself kung fu. I love it.

[David Leitch]

Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been fun and very informative. Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Thank you.

[Dave Davies]

David Leitch spoke with Terry Gross last year when his film the Fall Guy, starring Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt, was released. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews Wes Anderson's new movie, the Phoenician Scheme. This is FRESH air.

[David Leitch]

Great conversation makes for a great party. But how do you ask the questions that really make the room come alive? Well, here at Life Kit, we got you what is a path you almost took but didn't? On our latest episode, how to ask the magical questions that'll make your party sparkle. Listen to the Life Kit podcast from npr.

[Terry Gross]

Short Wave thinks of science as an.

[David Leitch]

Invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the shortwave podcast from npr.

[Dave Davies]

In Wes Anderson's new movie, the Phoenician Scheme, Benicio del Toro plays a wealthy European tycoon trying to lock down partners for a big infrastructure deal abroad. The film is set in the 1950s and features an ensemble cast that includes Michael Cera, Tom Hanks and, in a major role, Mia Threpleton. The Phoenician Scheme opens in theaters today. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

[Tonya Moseley]

It's become customary to describe a new Wes Anderson movie as more of the same, but it says something about the sheer richness of his visual imagination that he can make two movies set in roughly the same era that look and feel nothing alike. His previous film, asteroid City, was a gorgeous, warmly nostalgic ode to the American southwest of the 1950s. His new movie, the Phoenician Scheme, takes place in the same decade, but it's a chillier, more globe trotting affair. It follows an obscenely wealthy businessman named Anatol Zsaza Korda, played by an excellent Benicio del Toro. Korda is the latest of Anderson's dashing scoundrels, the titan of industry. As international man of mystery, he travels the world in private jets, making money deals and enemies at every turn and destabilizing governments and exploiting local workers along the way. Now Korda wants to establish a lasting legacy. He plans to develop a massive infrastructure project in a place called modern, greater independent Phoenicia. To pull this off, Korda decides to reconcile with his estranged daughter Liesel. She's the oldest of his 10 children, and make her his heir and partner. Liesel, played by a terrific Mia Threpleton, isn't sure she wants any part of it. Dumped in a convent when she was five, she's now a novitiate and she scorns her father's dishonest business practices. Also, there's a rumor going around that years ago Korda killed Liesel's mother. Murderer or not, Korda fits snugly into Anderson's ever expanding gallery of bad dads. From Royal Tenenbaum to Steve Zissou. The Phoenician scheme is a reconciliation story. And so Liesel reluctantly goes along with Korda's harebrained plan, hoping she can do some good along the way. But it won't be easy. In this scene aboard Korda's jet, Liesel gets some insight into her father and his grandiose view of himself.

[Terry Gross]

We're starting our descent. Prepare your documents before we deplane so you never delay my schedule. Passports.

[David Leitch]

Where's yours?

[Tonya Moseley]

I don't have a passport. Normal people want the basic human rights that accompany citizenship in any sovereign nation.

[Terry Gross]

I don't. My legal residence is a shack in Portugal.

[Tonya Moseley]

My official domicile is a hut on the Black Sea.

[Terry Gross]

My certificated abode is a lodge perched on the edge of a cliff overlooking.

[Tonya Moseley]

The sub Saharan rainforest, accessible only by goat path.

[Terry Gross]

I don't live anywhere. I'm not a citizen at all.

[Tonya Moseley]

I don't need my human rights. Much of the busy, preposterous plot follows Korda as he tries to get various business associates and family members to help finance his scheme. Anderson, who wrote the script with Roman Coppola, keeps updating us on how much each character has invested. At times, the Phoenician scheme feels perilously close to math homework. It's not too hard to follow though, especially compared with the more densely layered Asteroid City. The infrastructure deal is basically an excuse for the director to squeeze in as many of his favorite actors as possible. Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston play a pair of basketball loving businessmen. Mathieu Amalric turns up as a nightclub owner, Jeffrey Wright as a sea captain. And there are other Anderson alums in the mix too, like Bill Murray, Scarlett Johansson, Richard Ayoade and Hope Davis. The first timers though, make the strongest impressions. Riz Ahmed plays an endearing Phoenician prince. And Michael Cera is delightful as a nerdy Norwegian entomologist named Bjorn. The most moving performance comes from Threpleton. Her Liesel has the radiant self possession of the French icon Anna Karina, who gave one of the all time great nun performances in Jacques Rivette's 1966 classic La Religie. Although Anderson's films are often suffused with themes of spirituality, morality and grace, he seldom engages the subject of religion as directly as he does here. In a way, the father daughter relationship is a metaphor for God and money, in which Corda's endless pursuit of riches keeps bumping up against Liesel's strong sense of faith and social justice. The Phoenician scheme may present itself as a fabulous piece of stylized escapism, but it's hard to watch it and not think about the oligarchs of today. Anderson's style is often described as whimsical, but here he's made a movie about the literal whims of tycoons. The film has his signature visual touches, full of symmetrical compositions and exquisite textures and details. But there's an uninviting coldness to the backdrops themselves. A rich man's fortress, a half built railway tunnel, a fancy but dim nightclub. It's as if we're seeing the hollowness of extreme wealth. In some ways, this is one of Anderson's darker, angrier, more violent films. One of the first things we see is a man being blown in half by a bomb intended for Korda and who's the target of multiple assassination attempts. Whenever he's in danger, Korda says, myself, I feel very safe, which is hardly reassuring to those around him. The Phoenician scheme is well aware that men like Korda make life worse for everyone else, which is why I'm still puzzling over the movie's happy ending, which at the last minute engineers a fateful change of heart. The conclusion Anderson leaves us with could be read either hopefully or cynically. For the Zsa Ja Cordas of the world, to do the right thing might well require an act of God.

[Dave Davies]

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Wes Anderson's new film, the Phoenician Scheme.

[Terry Gross]

Lucy, I'm home.

[Dave Davies]

On Monday's show, we talk with Todd Purdom about his new book on Desi Arnaz. Arnaz became a star playing Ricky Ricardo on I Love Lucy. Behind the scenes, though, he created what became standard procedures for producing, shooting, lighting and broadcasting TV sitcoms. Purdom's new book is Desi Arnaz, the Man who Invented Television. I hope you can join us.

[Terry Gross]

To.

[Dave Davies]

Keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram nprfreshair. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Charlie Keyer. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C V Nesper. Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer. For Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley, I'm Dave Davies.

[Terry Gross]

Look, we get it when it comes to new music, there is a lot of it and it all comes really fast. But on all songs considered, NPR's music recommendation podcast, we'll hand pick what we think's the greatest music happening right now and give you your next great listen. So kick back, settle in, get those eardrums wide open and get your dose of new music from All Songs Considered only from npr. On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast, we're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in game theory a trigger.

[Tonya Moseley]

Strategy, or sometimes called grim trigger, which.

[Terry Gross]

Sort of has a cowboy esque ring to it to what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For insight every weekday, listen to NPR's the Indicator from Planet Money.