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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels. With over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else, Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com this is FRESH AIR.
- [00:20]
I'm Terry Gross. My guest today is Al Pacino.
- [00:24]
Al Pacino
Don't ask me about my business, Kate.
- [00:26]
Terry Gross
Is it true?
- [00:28]
Al Pacino
Don't ask me about my business?
- [00:30]
No.
- [00:32]
Terry Gross
Well, I'm going to ask Pacino about his business, by which I mean his art.
- [00:37]
Al Pacino
It sounded like a shot to me.
- [00:39]
Terry Gross
It did. I know it's you slamming the table.
- [00:42]
Al Pacino
Oh, all right. As long as it's not a gun. I've had enough of those.
- [00:49]
Terry Gross
So I'm gonna talk to Ficino about his remarkable performance in the Godfather films and other films. We'll also talk about his life. He's written a new memoir called Sonny Boy, which is the name his mother used to call him. It spans his life from the days he grew up in the South Bronx, raised by a single mother with little money to falling in love with the language of the great playwrights Strindberg, Chekhov and Shakespeare, getting his start in avant garde theater in Greenwich Village, surprising himself by becoming a movie star, nearly dying from COVID and all the ups and downs along the way. In case you need to be reminded, some of his now classic films include Dog Day Afternoon, Serpico and Scarface. Although he starred along with Robert De NIRO In Godfather 2, they never had a scene together, but they were together in Heat and more recently in Martin Scorsese's film the Irishman. Pacino won an Oscar for his performance in Scent of a Woman. He won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO adaptation of the play Angels in America, playing Roy Cohn. He starred in the film adaptation of David Mamet's Pulitzer Prize winning play Glengarry Glen Ross and later starred in a Broadway revival of the show, but in a different role. Al Pacino, welcome to FRESH air. So exciting to have you here.
- [02:01]
Al Pacino
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.
- [02:04]
Terry Gross
I want to get to a lot of your life. I want to start by talking about the Godfather. So I want to start with a scene from the first Godfather film. You've begun your transformation into the killer, Michael, into the crime family. Michael. You know, you start coming home from the military, you don't want any part of the crime family. But then you're kind of pulled in after your father is shot. So here's a scene from Godfather 1, you've begun your transformation into the hardened Michael. Your father's still alive, but Michael is preparing to take over from him. And you have become so hardened like you hardly blink in some scenes, including this one. So you're with Mo Green, a Vegas casino owner kind of modeled on Bugsy Siegel. And the Corleone family has helped back him. Also in the scene is Michael's older brother, but not very bright brother Fredo, played by John Cazale, and the family lawyer, Tom, played by Robert Duvall. Mo Green is played by Alex Rocco. You speak first.
- [03:12]
Al Pacino
The Corleone family wants to buy you out.
- [03:15]
Mo Green
The Corleone family wants to buy me out? No, I buy you out. You don't buy me out.
- [03:21]
Al Pacino
Your casino loses money. Maybe we can do better.
- [03:24]
Mo Green
You think I'm skimming off the top, Mike?
- [03:28]
Al Pacino
You're unlucky.
- [03:33]
Mo Green
You damn guineas really make me laugh. I do you a favor and take Freddie in when you're having a bad time, and then you try to push me out.
- [03:40]
Al Pacino
Wait a minute. You took Freddie in because the Corleone family bankrolled your casino because the Molinari family on the coast guaranteed his safety. Now we're talking business. Let's talk business.
- [03:50]
Mo Green
Yeah, let's talk business, Mike. First of all, you're all done. The Coyote family don't even have that kind of muscle anymore. The Godfather is sick, right? You're getting chased out of New York by Barzini and the other families. What do you think is going on here? You think you can come to my hotel and take over? I talked to Barzini. I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel.
- [04:09]
Al Pacino
Is that why you slapped my brother around in public? Oh, now, that. That was nothing, Mike. Now, now, Mo didn't mean nothing by that. Sure, he flies off the handle once in a while, but. But Mo and me were good friends. Right, Mo?
- [04:22]
Huh?
- [04:22]
Mo Green
I got a business to run. I gotta kick asses sometimes to make it run right. We had a little argument, Freddie and I, so I had to straighten them out.
- [04:31]
Al Pacino
You straightened my brother out?
- [04:34]
Mo Green
He was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time. Players couldn't get a drink at the table. What's wrong with you?
- [04:41]
Al Pacino
I leave for New York tomorrow. Think about a price.
- [04:46]
Mo Green
Do you know who I am? I'm Mo Green. I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders.
- [04:52]
Al Pacino
Wait a minute.
- [04:52]
Terry Gross
Mo.
- [04:53]
Al Pacino
Mo, I got an idea.
- [04:55]
Tom.
- [04:56]
Mo Green
Tom.
- [04:56]
Al Pacino
You're the conciliary now. You can talk to the Don.
- [04:58]
You can explain. Just a minute. Don.
- [05:01]
Is Semi retired and Mike is in.
- [05:03]
Charge of the family business now.
- [05:04]
If you have anything to say, say it to Michael. Mike, you don't come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Mo Green like that. Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you, but don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again.
- [05:28]
Terry Gross
I just love that scene so much.
- [05:30]
Al Pacino
Yeah, it's interesting on radio, too.
- [05:34]
Terry Gross
It works, just hearing it. Doesn't it work, though?
- [05:36]
Al Pacino
Yeah, it does.
- [05:37]
Terry Gross
Yeah.
- [05:38]
Al Pacino
Really does. I was thinking maybe they'll do the Godfather on radio someday.
- [05:43]
Terry Gross
That's a great idea.
- [05:44]
Al Pacino
Yeah.
- [05:45]
Terry Gross
You know, I interviewed Michael Caine years ago, and the great actor Michael Caine. And he was saying when you were playing a powerful potion, you don't wave your hands around because when you have the power, people are looking at your every subtle gesture. They're trying to read you. They're trying to stay in your good graces and stay safe. And so weak people move their hands around. Powerful people don't. When we started talking, you were moving around a lot. So I'm thinking, was it hard for you to be as still as Michael is when he is exerting his power? Because he knows how to not be still when he needs to. But he can be very still and very opaque and very threatening at the same time.
- [06:28]
Al Pacino
I know. I don't know how I did that.
- [06:31]
Terry Gross
Yeah. I was wondering, I don't know till.
- [06:35]
Al Pacino
This day what possessed me.
- [06:37]
Terry Gross
You literally, like, don't blink in that scene. I think you blink once. How do you do that?
- [06:43]
Al Pacino
Well, I was in the situation, as they say, and I guess it came to me, you know, because things like that happen if you stay the course. Meaning if you are with whoever you are when you're playing it and your instincts are operating. I guess I was lucky, and I just went in that direction and I didn't do it consciously.
- [07:11]
Terry Gross
You were nearly fired from the movie after the opening scene. And you write in the book that the opening scene was such a stupid scene for the audition because Michael is so, like, not a part of the family. He doesn't really know who he is yet. His future is uncharted and he's naive.
- [07:29]
Al Pacino
So, yeah, judgment was off on picking that scene, I think, because it's a scene of, you know, quasi exposition. So when you're going through it, what are you supposed to do?
- [07:43]
Terry Gross
He's just describing to his girlfriend, Kay, who later becomes his wife. Like, who's here and who his family is and who they've helped kill.
- [07:51]
Al Pacino
I know all these wonderful people auditioned I remember them all, all of us, the young actors just doing that scene. And I thought, well, what can they see from that? But somehow I was the lucky one, because Frances always wanted me before there was a script.
- [08:12]
Terry Gross
Francis Ford Coppola.
- [08:13]
Al Pacino
Yeah, yeah. He always wanted me to play Michael. That was in his vision, even though it wasn't in mine. I'll tell you that. I thought he might be making a mistake.
- [08:24]
Terry Gross
I thought you thought he was kidding and it was maybe a phony phone call.
- [08:27]
Al Pacino
Well, I did think when he called me and told me that he was given the Godfather to direct, because I knew him like a year ago before that, where I went out to San Francisco to do something with him, and I saw where he worked and the Zoetrope with Spielberg there and Lucas and all those de Palmer and all those 70s filmmakers that were about to explode on the scene. And I had met them in San Francisco, and he was getting to know me for another role he was doing in a movie that he wrote, Love Story, which never got off the ground. And I went back to New York, and I hadn't heard from him in about a year. And then he called me, and I said, oh, Francis. I spent some time with him, three or four days. So I got to know him a little bit, and I thought, this guy's got something very special. And he called me and told me he had the Godfather. I thought, now he's gone too far. I thought, what life can do to you. Now he's fantasizing things. So I said, okay. I went along with it. But after a while, I started to think, wait a minute. I think Paramount is pretty smart to pick this guy because this guy knows his stuff, and it's an Italian American. He understands it somewhere. They picked him. You know, he had won an Oscar already for the script of Patton, the George C. Scott film that was so wonderful. And so he already was starting to establish himself in Hollywood. And then I started to think, maybe he is going to do it. But when he said he wanted me to play Michael, I thought, he's really in a fantasy.
- [10:28]
Terry Gross
So you start with Robert De niro in Godfather 2, but you're not in any scenes together because he's of a different generation from before you were born. And however, you do have scenes together in Heat and also in the Irishman. And I want to play a great scene from the Irishman.
- [10:50]
Al Pacino
Sure.
- [10:50]
Terry Gross
Okay. So here's a scene with you and De Niro toward the end of the film, and you've just gotten out of prison. He plays Frank Sheeran. And Frank Sheeran is somebody who got very connected to the mob. And then he became. You played Jimmy Hoffa, the head of the Teamsters Union. He became your bodyguard. So in this scene, you've only recently gotten out of prison. There was a big kind of ceremony in your honor. And then De Niro, as Frank Sheeran comes up to you and explains that basically that your time's up, that the mob wants you out of the Teamsters, out of the leadership position that you want to return to. But you're both talking between the lines. You're not coming right out and saying anything. You're talking between the lines. It's a great scene. You ping pong back and forth. So let's hear it. It starts with De Niro.
- [11:49]
Al Pacino
Tony told the old man to tell me to tell you. It's what it is, Worthy. It's what it is. Please listen to me. They wouldn't dare. They wouldn't dare. Please, Frank, come on. Don't say they wouldn't dare. No, don't. Don't tell me that, Kenneth. That, that's. That's fairy tale, see? Don't say they wouldn't dare. Please. Something funny happens to me, they're done. You understand that? And they know it. Because I got files, I got proof, I got records, I got tapes. Anytime I want, they'll be gone. He's spend the rest of their lives in jail. And they know it. They know it. But what you're saying is what they're concerned about. What I'm saying is I know things I know they don't know I know. Please, I'm gona take that chance. What chance am I? Why should I be taking a chance? They're saying this is it. They're saying this is it and then it's it. I'm trying to tell you something. I know you are. You're telling me they're threatening me and I gotta do what they say, which is absolutely. It's the bottom line. Bottom line. It's. It's what it is. They do something to me, I do something to them. That's all I know. I don't know anything else. Do you?
- [13:18]
Terry Gross
You don't get that De Niro's telling you they're going to kill you unless you do it. And they do. Yeah. So you and De Niro are both such intense actors. You're of the same generation. So when you're working together, do you have a similar style of either preparing or like, does one of you want like 1000 takes and another One of you only want one. You know, like, what are your commonalities in your clashes when you're working together?
- [13:48]
Al Pacino
I see all just commonalities there. It's like we've been doing this for many years, and even when we did Heat together, Bob said to me, it's a scene just between the two guys, if you remember, in Heat. And he said to me, let's not rehearse. I said, okay, let's not. So I went to the scene and Michael Mann approved of not rehearsing. And I thought it was a good idea because these two guys didn't know each other. We sort of knew our words, but so what if we didn't? We were there and it went on and that's the scene. And it worked because. It worked because we were meeting for the first time in the movie. It's interesting. I was all ready to rehearse and he said, let's try not rehearsing. Let's just do it that way, see what happens. And I feel he was really right. So we have that kind of freedom with each other because we know each other from years of working and. Yeah, he's so easy to work with, Bob. You know, he just. Anything you do or say, he's there. He hears it.
- [15:22]
Terry Gross
So you grew up in the South Bronx. You hung out with a pretty tough crowd. Yeah. And you used to, like, jump from rooftop to rooftop.
- [15:30]
Al Pacino
Oh, yeah, we were wild.
- [15:31]
Terry Gross
You threw trash down. You'd be on the rooftop and throw trash down on Saturday nights. On Saturday nights to young men with their dates.
- [15:40]
Al Pacino
Yeah, yeah. We would go there and throw like, lettuce at them and stuff. And they always wanted to kill us, but they couldn't catch us, was that we would do it on occasion. On occasion we didn't do it a lot, but when we did, I remember it.
- [15:53]
Terry Gross
Where was the fun in doing that?
- [15:56]
Al Pacino
God only knows, because everybody else was doing it. That's what it was, something we were all doing together. Like we were in an orchestra. We just would go up there and, like, part of growing up where I was was being chased. That was the fun of everything.
- [16:14]
Terry Gross
Chased by who?
- [16:16]
Al Pacino
By anybody that we screwed around with. And, you know, that's how we did. We didn't only do these things. I'm sorry. They stand out from time to time. But I remember my childhood as running.
- [16:32]
Terry Gross
At least three of your closest friends died of drug related deaths. Were they heroin overdoses?
- [16:39]
Al Pacino
Yeah.
- [16:40]
Terry Gross
How did you manage to avoid that yourself?
- [16:45]
Al Pacino
Well, I believe my mother. My mother just was there and she just no way. You know, like, there's scenes in the book that reflect that, you know, it was just territory there in the South Bronx. They were calling me late at night on a school night and to come on out, you know, who knows what they were going to be doing? I think it's in the book, too. And they call up, and my mother just said no. And I was so angry with her. You know, all these things come back to you. I remember when, 30 years ago, I'm in my house in New York. I was in a. I had a house there. And I'm shaving to go to an event that I'm getting an award of some sort. And I. I was thinking about, what am I going to say, you know? So I started thinking, well, and then it just dawns on me. I'm shaving, you know, I see my face in the mirror, and I thought, you're here because of your mother. What's. What's the matter with you? I said, it's true. So I had this realization at age 52 that my mother was everything, you know.
- [18:17]
Terry Gross
How old was she when she died? Did she get to see you be successful?
- [18:20]
Al Pacino
No, my grandfather and all. My mother saw me. They both died before I became successful. Yep.
- [18:30]
Terry Gross
Your parents divorced before you were two. When you were around eight months old, you were taken away from your mother and.
- [18:37]
Al Pacino
No, I think I was a year and a half. And I stayed with them for eight months.
- [18:45]
Terry Gross
Stayed with your grandparents?
- [18:47]
Al Pacino
Yeah, my father's mother and father.
- [18:52]
Terry Gross
And you say, at least with family and not a foster home, why were you taken away from your mother?
- [19:00]
Al Pacino
I would imagine. Of course, I'm not very clear on that. I learned that after my mother had died from relatives that came to see me on Broadway. And I just. It was just a revelation. And then, you know, a bulb went off in my head, and I thought, oh, there it is. That's why I do some of the things I do.
- [19:26]
Terry Gross
Like what?
- [19:27]
Al Pacino
I don't know. Like the behavior I had and the way I was in life. And that started me. I went into therapy for the next.
- [19:38]
Terry Gross
40 years after finding out.
- [19:41]
Al Pacino
Trauma. It's just trauma, you know, Trauma. We all have trauma.
- [19:45]
Terry Gross
Trauma you didn't even know you had. It's interesting.
- [19:47]
Al Pacino
Yeah, I didn't.
- [19:49]
Terry Gross
But that doesn't mean it didn't affect you, of course.
- [19:52]
Al Pacino
No, no. So I know that my grandmother on my father's side raised me to the point where my grandmother and grandfather. That she had visitation rights in the divorce papers. She found out, and she was simply the most wonderful person. I think I went there when I was a year and a half. That's tough stuff.
- [20:20]
Terry Gross
So we need to take a short break here, so let me introduce you. My guest is Al Pacino and he's written a new memoir called Sonny Boy. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.
- [20:34]
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- [22:01]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He has a new memoir called Sonny Boy. When we left off, we were talking about growing up in the South Bronx with his grandparents and single mother. There was a point where your mother was crying and kissing you all over and you were very young and you weren't understanding what's up, why is this happening? And then you return home and you see there's an ambulance in front of the building and it's your mother who they're there for. Was that, did she attempt to die by suicide?
- [22:36]
Al Pacino
Yeah. Yes.
- [22:39]
Terry Gross
How old were you?
- [22:41]
Al Pacino
I was about 6.
- [22:43]
Terry Gross
Did it register on you what had happened? Did you comprehend it?
- [22:47]
Al Pacino
I couldn't quite at 6, I knew something was up. And I lived with my grandmother and grandfather and my mother. And I remember they're all sitting at a table. I think this was after the war. So my uncle would be there, my aunt would be there. Everybody was Talking about what to do. And I remember sitting there and they let me sit there. So I didn't quite understand what they were saying, but I knew it was a serious thing and. But, you know, she came back and.
- [23:29]
Terry Gross
Yeah, that must have been traumatizing too.
- [23:32]
Al Pacino
Leaving on seeing her in the street, somebody said to me as I'm running to see the ambulance, you know, we rarely saw ambulances coming on our block. And I saw it and there she was on a stretcher going into the. Into the ambulance. And I thought, of course, I couldn't believe it was my mother. These things don't happen to my mother, you know. And it was her because they said, hey, I hear it's your mother, Sonny, it's your mother. Mother. My mother. I said, no, nothing happens to my mother. And I remember that feeling and then the shock of seeing her in that. It was, as they say, surreal. But it's clear in my memory.
- [24:19]
Terry Gross
Yeah, she must have loved movies because she took you to the movies when you were.
- [24:23]
Al Pacino
Oh, she loved everything. My mother was very smart. She read and had played the piano and I mean, very poor, of course, but she was very, very intelligent. And my mother decided to go to the theater and take me to Broadway shows, among other things. But she loved Cat on a Hot Tune Roof and those kind of shows. She was very into.
- [24:57]
Terry Gross
She took you to see. When you were five, she took you to see the Lost Weekend starring Ray Milan as this, like, raging alcoholic. It's a great film, but he, you know, he gets very self destructive and I don't know, you were five and then you started acting out those scenes at home?
- [25:13]
Al Pacino
Yeah, I started acting into it. Yeah, I would act all the time. When mom took me to the movies, I'd come back because we lived alone and there was nobody there to play with. So I'd act out all the parts in the films I saw. And I acted out the last weekend and I showed it to my mother. My mother said, oh, what is this? And they started laughing. And then she'd show it to the families or when I was somewhere, they'd say, sonny, do the last weekend. And I would do the last weekend. And I never understood why they would laugh at someone in this predicament. Because it's where he's searching for a bottle of booze that he hid somewhere when he was sober and now he couldn't find it. And when he was drunk and now he can't find it and he goes crazy opening drawers and so on. I love doing that. I think it's A memory. And they would be laughing and I would say, why are they laughing? To myself.
- [26:14]
Terry Gross
Do you understand now?
- [26:16]
Al Pacino
I sort of do.
- [26:18]
Terry Gross
It's kind of funny to see a five year old playing an adult in crisis. Yeah, adult in crisis who's totally disillusioned.
- [26:26]
Al Pacino
And with real commitment. I was right there.
- [26:30]
Terry Gross
You became an actor.
- [26:32]
Al Pacino
Yes.
- [26:33]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And you fell in with avant garde theater, which I didn't know until reading the book. But even before that, you'd fallen in love with Strindberg and Chekhov and Shakespeare.
- [26:42]
Al Pacino
Oh, God, yes.
- [26:43]
Terry Gross
I'm curious, like as a teenager before, you were really deeply involved with theater, although you did go to the high school and performing arts. Yes. So can you recite a few lines that really stuck with you and meant something important to you when you were in your teens from one of those three? Strindberg, Chekhov, Shakespeare.
- [27:10]
Al Pacino
Oh, boy. I feel like I'm an audition.
- [27:14]
Terry Gross
You're going to be graded.
- [27:16]
Al Pacino
I don't know what that would be. Oh, no, that was from play I did called the King and I. Whenever I feel afraid, I hold my head erect, whistle a happy tune so no one will suspect I'm afraid. The other one was, I guess, somewhere I have never traveled. Gladly beyond any experience. Your eyes have their silence. In your most frail gesture are things which enclose me or which I cannot touch because they are too near. Your look will easily unclose me, though I have closed myself as fingers you open always me pedal bipedal as spring opens, touching skillfully, mysteriously, her first rose. I do not know what it is about you that opens and closes. I only know that the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses. Nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands. Ah, there it is. It's impromptu.
- [28:48]
Terry Gross
What was that from?
- [28:50]
Al Pacino
That's E.E. cummings.
- [28:53]
Terry Gross
Oh, okay. So you sang a few bars of Whistle a Happy Tune.
- [29:00]
Al Pacino
Yeah, I was in the King and I. That's why I remember it.
- [29:04]
Terry Gross
I was surprised to read that you were in musicals. I never.
- [29:07]
Al Pacino
Yes.
- [29:07]
Terry Gross
I've never heard you sing.
- [29:10]
Al Pacino
I was offered a musical. What was it? A big one? Sort of. What's the big movie they made? Zorba the Greek. Yes, they did Zorba and I was offered it to play the Alan Bates role.
- [29:28]
Terry Gross
Oh, I think it was Anthony Quinn. I can't remember.
- [29:30]
Al Pacino
It was Anthony Quinn and Alan Bates. They wanted me to play the Bates role on Broadway, Hal Prince, because he saw me in Indian Monster Bronx. So he asked me if I would come in and audition. So I had to go with somebody who actually turned out to be Marvin Hamlisch. And I didn't know at the time, and he wasn't well known at the time. And I would go to his house, his apartment in Brooklyn with his mother and father, and I would practice, you know, with him. I never said anything to him. I just went in there, practiced. So there was a place that Mary Martin was on Broadway doing something, some play, I forget. And it was a kind of innovation. They had the piano on stage but hidden by curtains. So that's where I auditioned for Hal Prince after working with Marvin Hamlisch. And I went into the theater and I auditioned with the song from Guys and Dolls, which is Luck Be a Lady Tonight, you know, and I started on doing it, and Marvin Hamlisch was supposed to be there, but I looked around and I didn't see the piano or anything. And I said, you know, to the folks out there, I was auditioning with this guy who was teaching me how to sing. So but I don't think he's he's not here now. I said, so I don't know. And all of a sudden I heard him yelling from behind the curtain back, I'm here.
- [31:10]
Terry Gross
I'm here.
- [31:12]
Al Pacino
So I thought, oh, I have to go through with this audition now. So I sang, you know, and forgot all the words. And I remember leaving, and it wasn't a good audition, if you know what I mean. And I remember leaving with him, and he said to me, you know, I thought you would maybe forget some of the lines, but you forgot all of the lines. He was mad. I said, well, I don't know. I'm just not used to it, I guess. By the way, they gave me the part.
- [31:49]
Terry Gross
Well, let's take a break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it's called Sunny Boy. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [31:59]
Ira Glass
This is Ira Glass of this American Life. Each week on our show, we choose a theme, tell different stories on that theme. All right, I'm just going to stop right there. You're listening to an NPR podcast. Chances are you know our show. So instead I'm going to tell you we've just been on a run of really good shows lately, some big, epic, emotional stories and some weird, funny stuff, too. Download us this American Live okay, so.
- [32:24]
Terry Gross
Does this sound like you? You love NPR's podcasts. You wish you could get more of all your favorite shows, and you want to support NPR's mission to create a more informed public. If all that sounds appealing, then it is time to sign up for the NPR Bundle. Learn more at plus.NPR.org.
- [32:48]
NPR
On Short Wave we know the human body is this amazing singular thing capable of facing down all kinds of infection and disease, from managing UTIs to cancer to Long Covid. Our show is dedicated to destigmatizing our relationship to our bodies. Listen to the shortwave podcast from npr.
- [33:11]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He's written a new memoir. It's called Sonny Boy. You were going to turn down the role in Godfather 2?
- [33:20]
Al Pacino
Well, the only reason I stayed in Godfather 1 is, I mean, you would quit if you were in it when everybody's over there giggling at what you're doing, you know, and the whispers on the set. I said, I don't want to be here. I said, I don't like being around people who don't want me around. I've never been that way. I just sort of shy off. I don't want to be there.
- [33:43]
Terry Gross
But for Godfather 2, I mean, Godfather 1 was already a success. But oh, yeah, Godfather 2, Mario Puzo comes up to you with the script that he'd written. And he said, this is crap.
- [33:53]
Al Pacino
Yes. He said, I just want you to know before you read it, they want to do it, that this is crap. And I read it and he was right. It was not good. And so I just thought, well. And they kept upping the ante. They kept giving me more money, and I kept saying, but I don't want to do it. And then finally when Francis, because Francis wasn't on the project, so Francis got on the project and he cut them off at about 700,000. He said, no, he doesn't want money. He wants a good script. Stop giving him the money.
- [34:32]
Terry Gross
Wait, so was the script rewritten?
- [34:35]
Al Pacino
Yeah. Well, he wrote it.
- [34:36]
Terry Gross
This is a great script.
- [34:37]
Al Pacino
I know. It was a great scene.
- [34:38]
Terry Gross
Coppola rewrote the script.
- [34:40]
Al Pacino
Yeah. With Mario. And partially it was almost done, but me and Charlie still didn't think certain things were right. So me and Charlie went out to San Francisco and we said, let's see if we could do this. And Francis did really a great job. And he just did. And we just worked with him a little bit. And I remember thinking that was a very memorable moment. So then it was done. I said, yes. And it was a tough shoot for me because I just don't know. It was a time in my life where it's hard to Describe it without lying down on the couch.
- [35:39]
Terry Gross
It was hard because of your personal.
- [35:41]
Al Pacino
Life or, of course, everything, I guess, where my drinking had gotten to, or all of it. I found myself in a state of mind that was. Oh, difficult. I took Valium. Remember those days or you don't? You're too young.
- [36:03]
Terry Gross
Valium.
- [36:04]
Al Pacino
Valium.
- [36:05]
Terry Gross
I remember those days.
- [36:06]
Al Pacino
Do you remember Valium?
- [36:07]
Terry Gross
Of course. Oh, I didn't take it, but certainly knew all about it. I mean, it was. It was. Everywhere was like there were jokes about it and dramas about it. It was like one of the first really popular anti anxiety medications.
- [36:21]
Al Pacino
Yeah, I took that and drank the same time. Which is a. No, no, that's.
- [36:25]
Terry Gross
Yeah, that is so.
- [36:27]
Al Pacino
I was a lucky boy.
- [36:28]
Terry Gross
How did you manage to get through the film? You're so good at it. I mean, you're so good in the film. How did you manage.
- [36:33]
Al Pacino
Well, that's probably why I was so. But thank you for mentioning that. It's. It just went very far. I went very far into it because I always thought by the end of Godfather 1, it looked like Michael was starting to become encased in whatever this thing took over him, you know, this place he went to to survive, to save his father's life and to continue his life. And it was a tough one. So, you know, because I sort of see in Godfather 2aman who's cutting himself.
- [37:18]
Terry Gross
Off, he had to emotionally shut down to do what he felt he needed to do.
- [37:23]
Al Pacino
Yes. Yes.
- [37:24]
Terry Gross
And become a monster.
- [37:26]
Al Pacino
Yes.
- [37:28]
Terry Gross
Did that have an impact on you having to emotionally shut down for the role?
- [37:32]
Al Pacino
It had to. It had to. I've learned since when you play situations and. And people that get caught up in that web, it's best to be happy every day, sing cheery songs, and then go on. It's actually true. I've known some actors, very good actors, who just say, nope, nope, I'm just doing my thing. They could be dancing and singing and then just go right to it. And at that time, I would do it. Now, of course, I do it. Yeah. The more difficult the roll, the more, you know, and the more demanding or whatever. You go the other way in your preparation because you got it all in you now. I mean, you know, I. I think just through experience and doing this, the saying goes, time keeps me green, you know, because when you are acting or that thing that we do, and after a while, it gets there into the body and into the. It just. It becomes part of you and you don't have to act anymore.
- [39:11]
Terry Gross
Well, let's take a break. Here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it's called Sonny Boy. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [39:21]
NPR
If you listen on the regular to the FRESH AIR podcast, then I know you'll love some of the other NPR podcasts, too. Here's why NPR is worth your time and money. You get perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access, shop discounts and more for over 20 different NPR podcasts like this one. Support what you love and stop hearing promos like this one@plus.npr.org as we're all navigating a divisive election, no matter what happens, the question remains, how the heck are we going to move forward together? So in this season of the StoryCorps podcast from NPR, stories from people who made a choice to confront the conflicts in their own lives head on. And in sharing stories from the bravest among us, maybe we can take their lead and find some hope for the rest of us. Get the StoryCorps podcast wherever you listen.
- [40:13]
Al Pacino
Joe Biden's on his way out. Donald Trump's on his way back. Want to know what's happening as the presidential transition is underway? The NPR Politics podcast has you covered with the latest news and analysis. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast.
- [40:28]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He's written a new memoir. It's called Sonny Boy. So you had to have surgery on your carotid artery. I guess it was clogged.
- [40:40]
Al Pacino
Oh, God. On both of them.
- [40:41]
Terry Gross
Both of them. Okay.
- [40:42]
Al Pacino
Yeah. I had four strokes.
- [40:45]
Terry Gross
Oh, it was.
- [40:48]
Al Pacino
It was not fun. But at the same time, it was diagnosed as something else. And I thought, I'm having some ocular migraines as it was. But it wasn't. It was something else. TIA and they're small, they're sort of minor. And then it was happening with frequency. And it's the kind of a thing where all of a sudden you can't quite see and then you can't quite speak, you can't talk, put words together. That's kind of scary when you're driving a car. So I thought this is something. And it went on for about a half hour to get.
- [41:28]
Terry Gross
You had one of these TIA Mini strokes while you were driving a car.
- [41:31]
Al Pacino
Yeah, I did.
- [41:32]
Terry Gross
Oh, it's lucky you survived that.
- [41:34]
Al Pacino
Ah, lucky. Yeah.
- [41:36]
Terry Gross
I want to ask you about another medical event that, you know, almost killed you. This is like during the COVID Oh, The COVID thing. You almost died. You flat lined.
- [41:45]
Al Pacino
Well, that's what I thought I did. I was standing there, I was getting. I had Covid and I was getting. How do you call it? I was dehydrated and so they were hydrating me. The next thing I know, I'm opening my eyes and there's six paramedics in my living room and two doctors dressed like their spacemen head to toe with all this stuff over them.
- [42:15]
Terry Gross
Oh, and protective gear to prevent Covid.
- [42:17]
Al Pacino
What? Yes.
- [42:17]
Terry Gross
From sprinting to them. Yeah.
- [42:19]
Al Pacino
Yes. I thought, what could this be? I just thought, whoa.
- [42:25]
Terry Gross
Do you live alone now?
- [42:27]
Al Pacino
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Terry Gross
How do you like it?
- [42:30]
Al Pacino
I'm not crazy about it, but what's the alternative? I live in such a great place, in such a good area, and I have friends and that's good. And I go out to dinners with people and so I'm fine.
- [42:54]
Terry Gross
What you do say in the book is that you thought you had experienced death.
- [43:00]
Al Pacino
I sure did. I really did.
- [43:01]
Terry Gross
But what you experienced was like nothingness. It wasn't.
- [43:04]
Al Pacino
I'm sorry to say that.
- [43:06]
Terry Gross
Yeah. You didn't see like a bright light. You didn't feel like you were looking down at yourself from the sky or the ceiling. It was just like the absence of anything.
- [43:14]
Al Pacino
No, I saw Marvin Hamlisch playing the piano. I'm just joking.
- [43:20]
Terry Gross
I get it.
- [43:21]
Al Pacino
You get it?
- [43:21]
Terry Gross
Yeah.
- [43:22]
Al Pacino
I didn't see anything. I opened my eyes, I thought, what happened? That's what I thought. And then I saw this. And, you know, that's a new experience. I never had that experience. And then they started watching me and stuff. And the recovery and all, whether you.
- [43:42]
Terry Gross
Nearly died or just briefly unconscious.
- [43:46]
Al Pacino
Well, it did have an effect on me.
- [43:49]
Terry Gross
That's what I'm interested in.
- [43:50]
Al Pacino
I do think exactly right. I do think about now more about death than I ever did before. And I think about, what is this? And how does one just understand it a little better? There's various ways, you know, and the best, I think, is not to think about it. But try that.
- [44:16]
Terry Gross
For some people, the answer is, oh, now I believe in God. For other people it is, you know.
- [44:21]
Al Pacino
Well, I always believe in God. I mean, whatever that is. I always do. I always have. That's something that is whatever God is.
- [44:29]
Terry Gross
Did it make you any more or less afraid of death?
- [44:33]
Al Pacino
I think I got a little more concerned about it, let's put it this way. Or I wonder about it. You know, I'm in my 85th year, so that's there. You know, when you talk to people, it's there, it's got to be there. How could it not be there?
- [44:54]
Terry Gross
Has it affected how you want to spend whatever time you have left?
- [44:59]
Al Pacino
No, whatever time I have left, I don't think that way.
- [45:05]
Terry Gross
I didn't mean like, oh, this is like the end. But I mean, like, sometimes you rethink, like, what do I want out of life at this stage of my life? Do I want to work more? Do I want to work less?
- [45:16]
Al Pacino
Well, yes. You know, it's a question of appetite and desire to do what everybody does, really. Sometimes you have appetite to go home and look at the football game, but appetite to take on something as part of your history. I mean, I've been doing this my whole life. I can't think of anything else I would do. Sometimes you can't afford not to do it, so you go do something. And, you know, like they say at aa, bring the body, the mind will follow. So you go and say, I don't know that I want to do this particular role, but it's a good role, and I'll bring my body and my mind will follow. Once I start to work on it, those juices come, and then the thing that goes along with it comes. That's how I see it. And if you're lucky, you read something and you want to do it, you have an appetite to do it. So there are very few things like that that have happened to me in my life that I had the appetite to do a particular role. And usually those roles were failures when.
- [46:36]
Terry Gross
I did the math.
- [46:39]
Al Pacino
So who can say?
- [46:43]
Terry Gross
Thank you so much for talking with us.
- [46:46]
Al Pacino
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
- [46:47]
Terry Gross
Thank you for all your great films, all your great performances, and for the book. Thank you very much.
- [46:52]
Al Pacino
Thank you.
- [46:54]
Terry Gross
Be well.
- [46:55]
Al Pacino
You too.
- [46:57]
Terry Gross
Al Pacino's new memoir is called Sonny Boy. Let's close with a famous scene from his film Dog Day Afternoon. Pacino's character is robbing a bank to pay for his lover's gender affirmation surgery. But everything's gone wrong, and he's holding everyone at the bank hostage. In this scene, he stepped outside where he's surrounded by police. Police snipers are on the surrounding rooftops, and a police detective, played by Charles Durning, is trying to get him to release the hostages. A crowd of people has gathered outside the bank watching the whole spectacle.
- [47:30]
Al Pacino
Come on, quit while you're ahead. All you got is attempted robbery, armed robbery. All right, armed then. Nobody's been hurt. Release the hostages. Nobody's gonna worry over kidnapping charges. The most you're gonna get is five years. You get out in one year. Huh?
- [47:44]
Kiss me, man.
- [47:44]
What?
- [47:45]
Kiss me. When I'm being. I like to get kissed. Come on, come on, come on. You're a city cop, right? Robbing the bank's a federal offense. They got me on kidnapping, armed robbery. They're gonna bury me, man. I don't want to talk to somebody who's trying to calm me. Get somebody in charge of you.
- [48:00]
I am in charge.
- [48:01]
Talk to some flunky pig trying to calm me.
- [48:03]
You don't have to be calling.
- [48:04]
What's he doing?
- [48:05]
Capital One
What do you.
- [48:05]
Al Pacino
Get back.
- [48:05]
What are you moving in there for?
- [48:07]
What's he doing? Get back there. What you doing?
- [48:09]
Terry Gross
Look at him.
- [48:10]
Al Pacino
Get over there. Go back there, man. Get over there. He wants to kill me so bad he can taste it.
- [48:15]
I was going to kill you.
- [48:27]
Hanukkah. Hannukah.
- [48:29]
Hannukah.
- [48:35]
Terry Gross
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll remember Quincy Jones and listen back to my 2001 interview with him. He died Sunday. He was an arranger, composer and producer for music that spans from the big bands through bebop pop, movie soundtracks, TV themes and hip hop. He arranged or produced recordings for Frank Sinatra, Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin and produced Michael Jackson's albums Off the Wall, Bad and Thriller. I hope you'll join us. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Seawert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tonya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [49:53]
Support for NPR and the following message come from Rosetta Stone. The perfect app to achieve your language learning goals. No matter how busy your schedule gets, it's designed to maximize study time with immersive 10 minute lessons and audio practice for your commute. Plus tailor your learning plan for specific objectives like Travel. Get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off and unlimited access to 25 language courses. Learn more at RosettaStone.com NPR the code.
- [50:21]
Switch team spent Election Day talking to folks about how the outcome might impact them. It's a time capsule of people's hopes and fears before they knew the results.
- [50:31]
Al Pacino
One way or another, there's a change coming. I wanted to vote for Trump, but I voted for her. Gays for Trump.
- [50:36]
I cried this morning.
- [50:37]
I've been crying on and off. I'm terrified.
- [50:41]
Terry Gross
Listen to Code Switch, the podcast about race and identity, from npr. Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family foundation, supporting WHYY's fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation.