Benicio del Toro On Living In Wes Anderson's World

Summary

Fresh Air: Benicio Del Toro On Living In Wes Anderson's World

Hosted by Tonya Mosley | Release Date: June 13, 2025

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Introduction to Benicio Del Toro and The Phoenician Scheme

In the June 13, 2025 episode of Fresh Air, host Tonya Mosley welcomes award-winning actor Benicio Del Toro to discuss his latest collaboration with acclaimed director Wes Anderson in the film The Phoenician Scheme. Del Toro, renowned for portraying complex and morally ambiguous characters, delves into his role as Zsa Zsa Corda—a charismatic yet ethically compromised 1950s tycoon seeking redemption through reconnecting with his estranged daughter, played by Mia Threpleton.

Character Exploration and Collaboration with Wes Anderson

Del Toro provides an in-depth look into his character, describing Zsa Zsa Corda as a "ruthless businessman" undergoing a significant moral transformation throughout the film. He explains, “[Zsa Zsa] is a character under reconstruction in a way. So that's the beginning of the character. And the character has an arc. And wherever he starts in the movie, he will end up in a completely different place” (04:00). This evolution is largely influenced by his relationship with his daughter, which serves as a catalyst for his awakening conscience.

Notable Quote:

“Wes is a great director, and we know him as a director and we know his films, but really, he is maybe a better writer.” – Benicio Del Toro (05:08)

Del Toro emphasizes the unique synergy between his acting and Anderson's writing, highlighting the layered and contradictory nature of the characters they create together. This collaboration allows him to fully inhabit his role, ensuring that Zsa Zsa's transformation feels authentic and compelling.

Wes Anderson's Aesthetic and Set Design

Discussing Anderson's signature aesthetic, Del Toro likens working on the film to "being in fantasyland," enhanced by the meticulous set designs crafted by art director Adam Stockhausen. He remarks, “[The sets] make it really exciting. But when it comes to when they say action, you just got to be in the moment” (07:04). The tangible, real sets contrast sharply with big franchise films reliant on CGI, providing a unique and immersive environment for actors.

Notable Quote:

“It's like a real rich character to tackle.” – Benicio Del Toro (06:15)

Wardrobe and Character Development

Del Toro discusses the importance of wardrobe in shaping his character, crediting costume designer Melena Cananero for the authentic 1950s suits that also possess an "ET-like" otherworldliness. He explains how specific elements, such as Zsa Zsa's strong, big shoes, influenced his portrayal: “The minute I put them on, it was like. That was the... that was started. I started to, like, get into character with that” (10:07).

On-Set Dynamics and Ensemble Cast Energy

Highlighting the collaborative energy on set, Del Toro praises his co-stars, including Tom Hanks, Bryan Cranston, and Pedro Pascal. He shares anecdotal moments that underscore the supportive and spirited environment fostered by Wes Anderson, such as Scarlett Johansson’s ability to uplift the set during demanding shooting schedules: “[Scarlett] just lifted that whole set... we could finish strong” (16:00).

Notable Quote:

“It's part of the experience of doing a Wes Anderson film. He has an incredible cast in this film that really motivates you and inspires you.” – Benicio Del Toro (13:05)

Method Acting and Early Career Insights

Transitioning to his early career, Del Toro reflects on his studies with the legendary acting coach Stella Adler, renowned for teaching icons like Marlon Brando and James Dean. He recounts how Adler emphasized the importance of understanding a character’s motivations before memorizing lines: “She told every actor, don’t go to the lines right away, because it's crucial that you need to understand why that character, that person wants” (24:27).

Notable Quote:

“Studying with her was like, it is as important as any other profession that we consider important.” – Benicio Del Toro (22:51)

Personal Life and Its Impact on His Craft

Del Toro opens up about the profound impact of losing his mother at a young age, a theme that surfaces in his conversations about mortality and personal growth. He shares a poignant interaction with Japanese filmmaker Kaneto Shindo, who echoed his sentiments about lifelong impacts of such losses: “You never get over it. It’s just what it is” (26:02).

Ethnicity and Representation in Hollywood

Addressing the complexities of ethnic representation, Del Toro discusses his decision to embrace Latino roles despite early industry pressures to conform to stereotypes. Reflecting on his breakthrough performance in Traffic, he states, “I do believe everyone is different, and I will play every Latino different if I have to play Latino for the rest of my life” (37:12). He advocates for more authentic and multidimensional Latino characters, emphasizing that meaningful change begins with writing.

Notable Quote:

“It's a good thing still. There should be more.” – Benicio Del Toro (37:50)

Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

Towards the end of the interview, Del Toro emphasizes the importance of collaborative creativity and the evolving landscape of Hollywood in embracing diverse stories and characters. He thanks Tonya Mosley for the engaging conversation, reiterating his passion for the craft and the projects he undertakes.

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Conclusion

Benicio Del Toro's insightful discussion on Fresh Air offers a comprehensive look into his artistic journey, his dynamic collaboration with Wes Anderson, and his perspectives on acting and representation in the film industry. His reflections provide valuable perspectives for both longtime fans and newcomers to his work, encapsulating the depth and versatility that have defined his illustrious career.

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Transcript excerpts and quotes are attributed with approximate timestamps for reference.

Transcript

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[Tonya Moseley]

I'm Tonya Moseley and my guest today, Benicio Del Toro has made a career out of playing complex, morally ambiguous characters. In Traffic, for example, he portrayed a Mexican police officer forced to decide whether to uphold justice or compromise his ethics in a corrupt system. In Sicario, he played a former prosecutor turned assassin. Del Toro's latest collaboration is with director Wes Anderson in the new film the Phoenician Scheme. He stars as Zsa Zsa Corda, a charismatic but morally compromised tycoon of the 1950s who, after surviving an assassination attempt, tried to tries to reconnect with his estranged daughter, a novice nun played by Mia Threpleton, in the hopes that she will one day take over his empire.

[Benicio Del Toro]

I've appointed you sole heir to my estate, which you may come into sooner rather than later, and provisionally manager of my affairs after the event of my actual demise on a trial basis. Why? Why what? Why sooner rather than later since you survived again? And why my sole heir to your estate?

[Tonya Moseley]

You have eight sons at last count, nine sons. Nine sons. What about them?

[Benicio Del Toro]

They're not my heirs. Why not? I have my reasons.

[Tonya Moseley]

Which are what?

[Benicio Del Toro]

My reasons. I'm not saying. I'm saying. I'm not saying.

[Tonya Moseley]

This is the second Wes Anderson film for Del Toro. In 2021, he starred as a volatile imprisoned artist in the French Dispatch. Del Toro's career spans decades. In 1995, in his breakout role, he played a small time CR and the usual Suspects. He went on to play the drug fueled lawyer Dr. Gonzo alongside Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. In 2000, he won an Oscar for best Supporting Actor for his role as Javier Rodriguez in traffic. And in 2005, he won best Actor at Cannes for his role as Che Guevara in Che. Benicio Del Toro, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Thank you, Tanya. Thank you for having me.

[Tonya Moseley]

You know, I read that Wes Anderson wrote this character with you in mind. You are essentially in every shot and I want to give the audience a taste of your character. As I mentioned, his name is Zsa Zsa Korda and he's this powerful industrialist from the 1950s whose conscience is kind of awakened by his relationship with his estranged daughter. And in this scene I'm about to play the two of Them are on Korda's private plane alongside Michael Serra, the family tutor. Let's listen.

[Benicio Del Toro]

We're starting our descent. Prepare your documents before we deplane so you never delay my schedule. Passports. Where's yours? I don't have a passport. Normal people want the basic human rights that accompany citizenship in any sovereign nation. I don't. My legal residence is a shack in Portugal. My official domicile is a hut on the Black Sea. My certificated abode is a lodge perched on the edge of a cliff overlooking the Sub Saharan rainforest, accessible only by goat bath. I don't live anywhere. I'm not a citizen at all. I don't need my human rights.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest today, Benicio Del Toro in the new Wes Anderson film the Phoenician Scheme. And Benicio, that line, I'm a man who does not need his human rights. What a lie.

[Benicio Del Toro]

It is a great line.

[Tonya Moseley]

How would you describe this man, this character that you inhabited?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Ruthless businessman, a tycoon, a rascal who is looking for redemption. Whether he knows it or not, he's a character under reconstruction in a way. So that's the beginning of the character. And the character has an arc. And wherever he starts in the movie, he will end up in a completely different place. And, you know, he's faced with mortality. He starts to look at his life in a different way. And because of the help of his daughter, like you said earlier, his daughter helps him put him on track and perhaps awaken his consciousness.

[Tonya Moseley]

You and Wes Anderson actually collaborated on this, and I was thinking about what it actually means to have a director write a role Tailor Made for you. Like, is there something about the moral dilemmas your character is dealing with that Wes Anderson felt or only you could draw out?

[Benicio Del Toro]

You know, Wes is a great director, and we know him as a director and we know his films, but really, he is maybe a better writer. And what I meant by that is, like, I think actors look for characters that are layered, and by that I mean may contradict themselves. They break the stereotype, let's put it that way. If they contradict themselves, and then, you know, when you get a character that has an arc, like Zsaza in the Phoenician Scheme has a hell of an arc, then as an actor, you're doing interpretations, right? So now you're almost in the cockpit of the character and of the story. You're part of this, of what's happening, and you're. You're looking at the arc and you're making sure that it. That is believable where the character is gonna end up. So it's a real rich character to tackle.

[Tonya Moseley]

So much is said about Wes Anderson's aesthetic. I think the description you gave was it's like being in a pop up book.

[Benicio Del Toro]

I mean, he works with an incredible art director, Adam Stockhausen. He's worked with Wesley, I think, most of his films, and they collaborate amazingly and these things come to life and it's like you're in fantasyland, but you're in real fantasy land.

[Tonya Moseley]

What was it like for you as an actor being in sort of like a real pop up book? Because when you're performing, of course there are all different types of sets, but I mean, this is very, very different. Almost maybe the complete opposite of maybe a big franchise film with CGI and visual effects. You're actually in. Everything around you is real.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Mm, yeah, yeah. Wes doesn't use CGI that much. I don't think so. I think very little, really. But first thing you're trained to, if you do film, you train yourself, is to erase the camera. It's not there. And when you find yourself in the moment and you're acting, the set will not get in the way. You know, the camera is not going to get in the way. What does happen in a Wes Anderson film is when you walk in, the set will embrace you. To really feel that you are in this room, in this dining room, in this airplane, and the details are. Makes it really exciting. But when it comes to when they say action, you just got to be in the moment. And usually being in the moment means you take everything around you for granted, you know, so. So it's a combination, you know, but the fact is that when you walk on the set and there were many sets on this film, it was one wow after another. Every time you walked on a new set.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. Wow. Because also there's real artwork. So, I mean, after you're done with the take, I mean, you could literally turn around and be right up on some very famous art pieces.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought I'd seen everything, but, you know. Yeah. Wes got real artwork in several of these scenes. And you know, I remember there was a. There was a Magritte there that actually belonged to me between action and cut. So it was kind of nice. There was a Renoir as well. It's in the bedroom of my daughter's room. Liesel, that's played by Mia Threpleton. And there's a real Renoir there. And it was pretty amazing. The paintings came with security guards, you know, There were a couple people there watching the painting and making sure no one was touching them or, you know, the light were not too close to the painting, etc.

[Tonya Moseley]

Your wardrobe is from that time period, but it's also otherworldly. It's a man in his 1950s suits. But there's also something almost like ET about it.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Melena Cananero is the wardrobe designer. She's won four Oscars. She worked with Stanley Kubrick. She is incredible. I mean, everything is from the time. And, you know, sometimes you build your character from the. From the shoes up, from the bottom up, and it's like the shoes will just make you stand and walk in a particular way. And the shoes of Zsa Zsa were like, you know, good, strong. Big shoes.

[Tonya Moseley]

Big shoes.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Yeah, they were like.

[Tonya Moseley]

How would you describe them?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Just, you know, you can walk over crocodiles with these shoes. You know, it's like that strong shoes, old school shoes. You know, everybody. Everybody knows, including my. We walk on sneakers all the time. You know, we. For. You know, but. But this is like a time where everyone wore hard sole shoes, you know, and her shoes were from the period, and they were like. The minute I put them on, it was like. That was the. That was started. I started to, like, get into character with that. You know, it's not the only thing, but it's very important. I think the wardrobe for an actor.

[Tonya Moseley]

You mentioned, Mia Threadpleton, who plays your daughter. And really, your relationship is the core of this entire film. And watching, as you mentioned, the evolution of you and kind of your redemption arc, you tell this story about her auditioning for the role, that there was something in her eyes, that. It was something about her eyes that made you feel that your character needed those eyes that look. Can you elaborate on that?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Well, you know, yes. I think Wes had her in mind already because we only auditioned her. I was in London, and we did a reading, and then we, you know, we started playing a little bit, and there was a moment there in between scenes. We were doing a scene, and then just when we finished, I kept my eyes on her eyes, and she kept her eyes on my eyes. And we kind of looked at each other and no one blinked. And it was pretty amazing to see such a young actress, you know, just hold her instrument, you know, just everything just there and just kind of like she was just looking at me and. And I remember telling Wes, like, you know, I think that's what Zsa Zsa needs. He needs a strong support if he's gonna become a better person. It Was like, she was just comfortable. Almost like a soft hand would escort me into the right direction if I was gonna explained that look. I mean, she's got those big eyes and almost a compassionate, you know, strong but compassionate look.

[Tonya Moseley]

I can imagine there's sort of an energy to being a part of an ensemble cast, like the Phoenician scheme. And really any Wes Anderson film, you're on set with all of these people, that energy. Can you describe it?

[Benicio Del Toro]

It's part of the experience of doing a Wes Anderson film. He has an incredible cast in this film that really motivates you and inspires you. You know, it's like working with Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston. RZ Ahmed, young actor. That is a great talent. Then you got Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston, which is like, you know, these are two actors that I've admired over, you know, and here I am, you know, just as a fan, working with them, and they're, like, in it 100% as well. You know, they're, like, really getting behind it, and it's really fun to see the actor in them figuring out the part as well. And then you go to Matthew Marique, also an actor that I've had the opportunity to work with before. So now it's like working with him again. Then it's Jeff, who I've worked with in Basquiat, and he was in the French Dispatch, but I didn't get a chance to work with him. Haven't worked with him in maybe almost 30 years.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is there also, like, a depth of intensity to be the main character in a film like this with a lot of dialogue? Because as part of an ensemble cast, so many of the people that are in it, they have roles that go in and out, but, like, you're there as a constant presence in every single frame almost.

[Benicio Del Toro]

You know, just the names that I mentioned, they were. They were completely aware of my situation. You know, they were like, you know, well, good luck, and how you holding up? And, you know, are you ready to kill someone? You know, but they were very giving and very helpful. Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston, they were like, we read this. This is crazy. You know, just let us know if you need any help or whatever. It's like, you know, so, yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Was there ever a moment where anyone helped in whatever that meant?

[Benicio Del Toro]

They all help in a different way. You know, they all help in a different way. I think that there was a moment there as we were shooting the movie. We're coming down maybe to the last lap, maybe the last week or maybe week and a half, and we were doing the sequence with Cousin Hilda, and Scarlett Johansson came in. And I think at that point we were all tired and, you know, we just needed that lift up. And Scarlett came in, and she just made everyone laugh. She was questioning the script in a real honest way and making Wes laugh, making every department, like. And she just lifted that whole set. Not only was she prepared and doing her thing, but she also made everyone kind of loosen up and remember that when you work a movie, you have to have fun. Even if it's a dark subject, you still have to have fun. It's like, you hear it in sports a lot, you know, like, don't forget to have fun. Well, acting is. Doing movies is similar, too. You got to have some fun. And she came. Came in and just, boom, lifted that thing up. And it was like, that's exactly what we needed so we could finish strong, you know. And, you know, I had to tell her. He's like, you know, what you did was magical. So you get that, and then you get something different. It's another story that is like we're doing the dream sequences, you know, in this movie in the Phoenician scheme. We got different, what they call Zach's conscience or daydreams or heaven scenes. And in one of those scenes, Bill Murray plays God, right?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Benicio Del Toro]

So now here's Bill Murray. I thought, I've seen everything, Tanya, in movies, you know, like, I've seen an actor show up with their own script. I've seen an actor show up with their own wardrobe, own hair, but I've never seen an actor show up with their own soundtrack.

[Tonya Moseley]

And Bill Murray did this.

[Benicio Del Toro]

He shows up with a boombox. I mean, it was a Bluetooth, one of those new things. Bluetooth, boombox, cranking. I think it was Eric Clapton. And you could hear it from a mile away. And he walks on the set, and everybody starts to groove everyone. All the departments that are there working, the actors, the craft service, the sound guys, everybody's moving to this Eric Clapton song. And then suddenly, Wes screams from the far side of the set. He screams. He goes, bill, Bill. Classical music only. Classical music only. And Bill just quickly, you know, it went from Clapton to Bartok in just two seconds. And he never broke stride. He just sat there listening to classical music. And it was like. That was so relaxing. It was so fun. It was so, like. It just a great piece of. It wasn't distraction. It was more than that. It was something else. It just kind of, like, loosened you up.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, two things I'm thinking with that story. Okay. First of all, do you think Bill did that on purpose just to mess with Wes? Because who brings a boombox on set? And if you guys have been playing classical music.

[Benicio Del Toro]

No. Well, Bill has worked with Wes for a long time, so the way Wes reacted to Bill was not like someone who's done it for the first time, you know, And Bill Murray is Bill Murray. There's only one Bill Murray. So, yeah, I just, I just think that it was kind of like organized chaos in a way.

[Tonya Moseley]

And why, why do you think Wes wanted classical music only on the set?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Well, if you watch the film, the film has mostly classical music. There's a section that there is jazz music. But for the most part, Wes has always got incredible soundtracks in his films where he plays all kinds of music. But in this movie, he's just staying with classical music. And I think that it doesn't have a language except the music language.

[Tonya Moseley]

Our guest today is award winning actor Benicio Del Toro. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Moseley]

I want to go back, way back to some of those early days when you were an aspiring actor moving into some of your early roles. So I know earlier in your career you studied with Stella Adler, who she is famously known for teaching Marlon Brando and James Dean, what became known as method acting. And I know there's so much there. Benicio, But. But what do you remember the most about that experience of being in her class and learning from her?

[Benicio Del Toro]

It changed my life. Studying with her at her studio, I studied under several teachers, one whose name was Arthur Mendoza in Los Angeles, and she would come on the for summer and winter and teach. And I remember, you know, taking those classes, and it was legendary. But I think one of the things that she was really particular was the fact that the actor needs to understand what the writer is trying to say. So you need to improve your reading comprehension. Also, the other thing that was exciting about the class was the fact that it was a serious job. An actor is as important as a doctor.

[Tonya Moseley]

Had you gone into the class believing that?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Well, I never really thought about it, really, to be honest with you. I don't come from a family of theater or, you know, I did watch movies when I was younger like anybody else, but I never thought about what was behind it. And acting was looked at as, you know, not really a profession, not something that you would consider a real profession in my world as I was growing up. You know, profession would be being an architect, being a lawyer, being a doctor.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right, because your family were professional people, right, in Puerto Rico, where you were born and raised?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Yes, many of my family members were lawyers. And my godmother, who I lost my mom when I was nine, she was the one who stepped in and, you know, kind of, like, helped a lot, you know, so. And she was a lawyer as well, so. Yeah, so. But acting was like a hobby, you know, you don't turn that into a profession. So when going into Stella, for me was like, it is as important as any other profession that we consider important. There was a respect for the craft. It made it exciting for me. It made me feel proud.

[Tonya Moseley]

She also told you something like, go to the lines last, so don't go to the lines before you understand who the character is. I just thought that was interesting too.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Yeah. She told every actor, don't go to the lines right away, because it's crucial that you need to understand why that character, that person wants. You need to understand where that character, you know, is coming from, where it's going. And so the first way to understand it is just put yourself in that person's shoe. And then from then on, you can then build and create a character that maybe eventually doesn't resemble you. But you need to understand what is it that you want in that moment. And if you go to the words first, I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way. I mean, there might be actors who go to the words first and it might work. But her logic was that if you go to the words first and you're concentrating just on the words and you're not going into the psychological aspect of who that person is.

[Tonya Moseley]

You mentioned your mom passing when you were nine. And I've actually think. I've heard you say that really from a very young age, you were thinking about mortality, because at that young age, you guys knew that she was dying. It's a powerful lesson for a young child to be faced with and to. To know and have to learn and understand.

[Benicio Del Toro]

I don't know if you ever really understand it really. You know, I mean, just marks you forever. It's just part of who you are. I don't know if you'd really get over it. I had an interesting meeting with a Japanese filmmaker. His name is Kaneto Shindo. And he was. I met him, he was about 97 years old. And in our conversation, he lost his mom when he was 9, just like me. And when he was 72, he made a movie about his mother. And I asked him that after making that movie, did anything change regarding that loss? And he said nothing. And, you know, basically what I'm saying is, like, you never get over it. You know, it's just what it is. It's just what it is.

[Tonya Moseley]

Was it your brother who kind of planted that seed in you that maybe you could be an actor?

[Benicio Del Toro]

He did mention something like that. And, you know, I don't know why he saw the ham in me. I don't know. I guess, you know, yeah, he did mention it at some point. Like, it. But it was really strange because it was like, where did that come from? And, you know, I never did any. Any acting. How I fell into acting was like this. I went to San Diego, University of California, San Diego, my freshman year. And you could make your own schedule. And I decided, wow, I can make it really easy for me. You know, I could just hang around and ride a bike around and just hang about, you know, And I. There was an acting class, I think it was called Acting 101. Just like that. And I said, how can I fail that? And if there's homework, it's going to be watching movies, which I already do, so looked pretty easy to me. So I went in and the teacher said that everyone here is 18 years old or 19, and that's the right age to study acting because you. You have a little bit of an understanding already about life. And so this is the right age to study it. And that clicked. That was kind of like, I still remember it. And the feeling was like, there's a logic to this. There's a science to this. And also the fact, like, am I on time? I thought if you were an actor, you had to be born into acting. And just like a musician, you need to start playing. When you're like 8 or 9, you know, you need to start. You need to come from a family of musicians, you know, or you need to come from a family of theater people and actors. And it was kind of strange that it was like, hey, this is the right time to start. And I took the class, and then I started realizing that there was a logic to it. You can study it and you can get better.

[Tonya Moseley]

You mentioned your godmother, Sara Torres Peralta. She was also your mom's really good friend. She's the big reason that you came from Puerto Rico here to the States to go to private boarding school in Pennsylvania.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Yes.

[Tonya Moseley]

How different was Pennsylvania from your life in Puerto Rico?

[Benicio Del Toro]

I went into a controlled environment to an extent. I went to a private school, a boarding school. And what I do remember is suddenly I was alone, but the person to my left or to my right were alone, too. So there was like this beginning that was very healthy for new thoughts. There were no clicks. I made friends with the basketball players because I played basketball. But for the most part, everybody was on equal footing. And also you would find yourself alone, which is also healthy, I think. In Puerto Rico, I had my posse, my friends, and I was never alone, you know. And here in Pennsylvania, for the first time, it was like. And you start looking in and you start having different thoughts and new ideas might come in, and it was healthy that way. And I quickly made friends and, you know, I made a lot of friends and played basketball and made a lot of friends there. I had, you know, I spoke English before I went to the school, but had a thick accent. But playing basketball created a language right there. And I think music also.

[Tonya Moseley]

My guest is Benicio Del Toro. He's the star in Wes Anderson's new movie, the Phoenician Scheme. Del Toro's films include the usual suspects, Basquiat, 21 grams, fear and loathing in Las Vegas and star the Last Jedi. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Moseley]

You had this relatively small role, but and it was at the beginning of the film, you played Fred Finster. He was this small time crook and con man rounded up like with a bunch of other guys. And you made this choice, it wasn't called for in the script to give this character a mumbling accent. And I want us to take a listen at this because in this scene you've just gone through this lineup with several other guys and you're now in a holding cell and your character is complaining. Let's listen.

[Benicio Del Toro]

So I did a little time. Does that mean I get railed every time a truck finds wherever Finster, will you relax? These guys don't have any probable cause. It ain't right. No PC, no God. Right? You do sometimes. I'm gonna let you go. You know, they treat me like a criminal. I'm not a criminal. You are a criminal. Why'd you gotta go and do that? Try to make a point.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest today, Benicio Del Toro in the 1995 film the Usual Suspects. Benicio, you chose this accent to make him memorable because he was actually one of the first to die. I think it's what a bold choice for a young actor.

[Benicio Del Toro]

You know, it was a decision made between the director and myself because it's correct. I died on page 37 out of like, 98 pages. So I did propose to Bryan Singer and The writer Chris McQuarrie, if I could just create something out of it. And they trusted me. That was the win there when they trusted me, because now I just had to deliver.

[Tonya Moseley]

Where did you get the accent from?

[Benicio Del Toro]

I got it from many different influences. Joe Frazier. The boxer.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. Yep, yep.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Thelonious Monk.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Benicio Del Toro]

And I would play with it. You know, the fact is that the movie became a huge success, and you're only as good as your movie in a way. You know, I think that the fact is that that movie helped my career quite a bit and the part. But the fact is that there was a great ensemble on that film, and the movie was a huge success at the box office. It was very independent. We shot it in 21 days or 20 days, and it was. And, you know, it's just like. It's a sign of, like, you're only as good as your movie. I mean, I think if that movie would have not been a success the way it was, we might not be talking about that.

[Tonya Moseley]

My character in it, you have the ability to kind of transform and be ambiguous ethnically, and it seems to work in your favor. But has it always worked in your favor?

[Benicio Del Toro]

You know, it's interesting because the first time I ever acted in Spanish was in Traffic. I mean, I did say lines in Spanish in Basquiat, and I might have said something in Spanish in a James Bond movie I did called License to Kill when I was 20. But for the most part, you know, the whole ethnic thing was not out until I did Traffic. And suddenly the ethnic thing, the Hispanic, helped me create a character and help my career and changed my career, really. And it was Traffic. So it's funny because, you know, when I was going out for movies early on, I would be asked to change my name because I would be limited. It was an issue that you would be limited to play Latino roles, right?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Benicio Del Toro]

And so you went against it because you'd be limited to stereotypes. And at some point, I said, bring it on, because I do believe everyone is different, and I will play every Latino different if I have to play Latino for the rest of my life.

[Tonya Moseley]

In a way, like, I just had a breakthrough in what you were saying here about this, because one of the things Hollywood has been kind of known for is flattening identities or culture.

[Benicio Del Toro]

I mean, my approach was, it's always been like, hey, you know, you play the character. I think now it's changed a little bit. You know, your heritage is embraced and more so now I think there's more opportunity we're not out of the bag for, let's say, for Latino actors and actresses to get roles that mean something that, that are, you know, three dimensional and not stereotypes. But there's more opportunity now than when I started, that's for sure. And I, and I think that, you know, it's a good thing still. There should be more. And it's a complicated thing because it's not up to the actors. It's really it's got to start with the writing. The writing and then the idea that it will attract eyeballs and ears to come and watch these stories. So it's interesting and it's better now than ever. And there's a lot of, you know, Latino actors working out there and, you know, probably more than there were when I first started, you know, tons more. Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Benicio Del Toro, thank you so much for this conversation.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Thank you for having me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Actor Benicio Del Toro, he stars in the new movie the Phoenician Scheme. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the romantic drama Materialists. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Moseley]

In the new romantic drama Materialists, Dakota Johnson plays a savvy New York City matchmaker who finds herself caught between two men, played by Chris Evans, Pedro Pascal. It's the latest movie written and directed by celine song, whose 2023 drama Past Lives received three Oscar nominations. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

[E]

The Korean Canadian writer director Celine Song made her feature debut two years ago with Past Lives, a quietly captivating drama loosely inspired by Song's relationship with her husband, American, and her brief reunion with a childhood sweetheart from Korea. It was the gentlest of love triangles, as well as a sneakily philosophical movie about cross cultural connections and fateful encounters. And so I had high expectations for Song's new film, Materialists. Like Past Lives, it's a thoughtful tale of romantic indecision, but in a glossier key with a star studded cast. Dakota Johnson plays Lucy, a professional matchmaker for a company called Adore. She arranges dates for New Yorkers who are tired of Hinge or Bumble and willing to pay thousands of dollars or more to meet their potential soulmates. Lucy is very good at her job, and it's given her a coolly pragmatic view of happily ever after. For her, people are basically human spreadsheets, little more than the sum of their physical and financial attributes. At a wedding reception, she meets a handsome bachelor, Harry. That's Pedro Pascal, who's clearly interested in her. But Lucy just wants to bring him aboard as a client.

[Capital One Ad]

Love is easy.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Is it? I find it to be the most difficult thing in the world.

[Capital One Ad]

That's because we can't help. Just walks into our lives sometimes.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Are you kidding on me?

[Capital One Ad]

Definitely not. But I do think that you would be a great match for a lot of our clients. We need more straight men in New York City. You look about six feet tall. How much money do you make just.

[Benicio Del Toro]

Straight up like that?

[Capital One Ad]

I make 80 grand a year before taxes. Do you make more or less than that?

[Benicio Del Toro]

More.

[Capital One Ad]

I know finance, right?

[Benicio Del Toro]

Private equity.

[E]

Johnson and Pascal have good chemistry and the best scenes and materialists belong to them. There's a nice tension between Harry's suave charm and Lucy's professional reserve. Johnson finds the nuance in Lucy's inner conflict. She wants to marry Rich herself, but she's held back by her belief that only Rich should marry Rich. And Harry isn't just rich. He is, in matchmaker parlance, a unicorn. The complete package in terms of looks, smarts and wealth. But Harry says he's interested in what he calls Lucy's intangible assets, and she eventually relents, letting him take her out to fabulous restaurants and then back to his $12 million Tribeca penthouse. Not since 50 Shades of Grey has a Dakota Johnson character been so thoroughly swept off her feet. Around the same time, though, Lucy reconnects with her ex boyfriend, John, played by Chris Evans. They broke up a while ago for money reasons, and John, a cater waiter and aspiring actor, isn't much better off now than he was then they still have feelings for each other, but for Lucy the math doesn't add up. Considerations of love versus money have of course been a staple of romantic fiction going back to at least the days of Jane Austen, and Song means to put her own distinct riff on it here. The skill that she brought to past lives is very much in evidence, from the heart on sleeve candor of the dialogue to the elegance of Shabir Kirchner's cinematography, which often basks in the visual splendor of a bright New York afternoon. I've rarely seen Central park or a Sabrette hot dog cart photographed so lovingly. All of which makes me wish that I ultimately liked Materialists more. But after an absorbing first hour, the movie feels increasingly undone by its own ambitions. It can't reconcile the screwball vigor of a comedy with the emotional oomph of a drama. It's worth noting that although Materialists isn't autobiographical, Song did once work as a matchmaker and she seems keen to expose some of the less savory realities of the profession, including the blatant racism and sexism of some of Lucy's clients. One subplot addresses sexual violence in the world of modern dating, and although you can admire Song for not shying away from the subject, the ensuing drama leaves Lucy's romantic dilemma feeling trivial by comparison. I never really bought that dilemma to begin with. Although Evans is an appealing performer, John isn't much of a character. He loves Lucy. He's a starving artist and that's about it. It's hard to imagine that someone as cool headed and unsentimental as Lucy would seriously entertain getting back together with this guy who shares a crummy apartment with two slovenly roommates straight out of a Judd Apatow romp. In order to make Lucy's situation halfway plausible, Materialists winds up dumbing her down and selling Johnson's smart, tough minded performance short in trying to teach Lucy about how relationships are more than math. It's the movie that doesn't add up.

[Tonya Moseley]

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Materialists, starring Dakota Johnson. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annemarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nakunde and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

[Benicio Del Toro]

I may not always love you.

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