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- [00:00]
Capella University
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- [00:14]
Tonya Moseley
Edu from WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, Amanda Knox, she was convicted and ultimately exonerated for the murder of her roommate Meredith Kercher while on a study abroad trip in Italy. Now in a new memoir, Knox explains why getting out of prison was not the end of her saga.
- [00:37]
Amanda Knox
Yes, they had gotten Amanda out of prison, but they hadn't actually saved Amanda because the girl who I was that person died in Italy.
- [00:51]
Tonya Moseley
Also, we hear from British actor Stephen Graham. He stars in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence as the father of a 13 year old boy arrested for murdering a girl from his school.
- [01:03]
Interrogator
I'm gonna ask you once, okay? No matter what's happened, no matter what you've done or you haven't done, I want you to tell me the truth. Did you do it?
- [01:14]
Tonya Moseley
And Ken Tucker reviews new albums from Lucy Dacus and Jeffrey Lewis. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.
- [01:22]
Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. The right support can make a difference. That's why at Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success and are there for you every step of the way. Whether you're working on a bachelor's, master's or doctoral degree, you can learn confidently, knowing you'll get the dedicated help you need. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Eduardo.
- [01:54]
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- [02:54]
Tonya Moseley
This is fresh AIR Weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley, and today my guest is Amanda Knox.
- [02:59]
Amanda Knox
American Amanda Knox entered an Italian courtroom.
- [03:02]
Interrogator
Convicted of a horrid crime in a.
- [03:03]
Ken Tucker
Foreign land, sentenced to 26 years for killing her roommate, her pleas for innocence.
- [03:09]
Interrogator
Seemed more cold and calculating than remorseful. Amanda's MySpace nickname, Foxy Noxy, dubbing her.
- [03:16]
Tonya Moseley
The angel face with the icy blue eyes. Knox was catapulted into global infamy after being convicted and later acquitted for the 2007 murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher. She's become a symbol, though few still to this day can agree on what she represents. To some, she was an innocent woman unjustly imprisoned, a cautionary tale of a young student who became trapped by Italy's legal system. To others, she was a tabloid fascination, her every expression scrutinized and reinterpreted. In the years since her exoneration and return to the United States, Knox has worked to reclaim her narrative. In her first book, waiting to Be Heard, she focused on the details of her conviction. Her latest memoir, my Search for Meaning, goes beyond the events of her trial and imprisonment and explores the realities of reintegrating into society and rebuilding a life. Wrongful convictions have become part of Knox's life's work. She sits on the board of directors of the Innocence Center, a nonprofit law firm dedicated to freeing innocent people from prison. Yet she grapples with a question that continually follows. How dare she live when Meredith is dead? Amanda Knox, welcome to FRESH air.
- [04:36]
Amanda Knox
Thank you so much for having me.
- [04:38]
Tonya Moseley
Amanda, you, you wrote your first memoir, waiting to Be Heard. I think it was a year after you were released from prison and you write that you thought it would be enough to set the record straight. Why hasn't it been enough?
- [04:52]
Amanda Knox
Oof. I think because the record is so convoluted. I think that so many different stories arose around this case and really a product was delivered by the prosecution and the media that that resonated with people, even though it wasn't based on anything and it wasn't true. And that product really was this idea that women hate other women. It really came down to that, this idea that young women secretly hate each other and are constantly competing with each other and in certain situations will sexually assault and murder each other. And it was a lie. And it was, it's shocking to me that it wasn't seen for what it was at the time, but it was a story that resonated with people and I think continues to resonate with People. And I think that in a big way, it wasn't even about Meredith anymore. I think a lot of people really didn't care very much about her or the person who committed the crime. They cared about this idea of a young woman hating another woman enough to sexually assault and murder them. That was titillating and fascinating to people, and that was ultimately the story that made the rounds of the world and. And resonated with so many people.
- [06:07]
Tonya Moseley
You and Meredith didn't know each other very well, did you? You all were brought together in Perugia through a study abroad program. What was your friendship like?
- [06:16]
Amanda Knox
Oh, thank you for asking that. It's true that I didn't know Meredith very well. I had only known her for a few weeks. That said, when you study abroad, you get to know people really quickly because you're both. Both of us were new arrivals to Perugia. We were both at the very same moment of our lives. You know, I was 20. She. She was studying journalism. I was studying languages. And we both happened to rent a room in this beautiful little house overlooking the countryside. And it was perfect. It was that beautiful time of your life when everything is possible and you have every reason to expect to have beautiful experiences. And, you know, I feel so horrible about how she has been misrepresented in the media as well. Like, the image of Meredith that was presented by the prosecution was of this, like, uptight, judgmental English girl, and that was not at all who she was. She was. Sure she was a little bit more introverted than me, but she was very kind and very silly. And I remember thinking both that she was very sophisticated and elegant. And I think part of that was because she had a beautiful British accent, and I always was impressed by that. But other than that, she also kind of took care of me. She was always asking me if I was getting home safe or who I was going out with, and just checking in on me and how this very big sisterly air. Like, one thing that haunts me to this day is we found this really cool little vintage shop. And she found this sparkly silver dress that she was very excited. She bought because she wanted to wear back home for New Year's Eve. And of course, she never got to wear that dress. And it just haunts me to this day. Like, I was right there with her. She was so excited. And I don't even know what happened to it, you know, like, so much of our lives, like, in a big way, two very young women went to Perugia, and one of them didn't get to Go home. And one of them came home completely and utterly changed. And it's a grieving process for me, for both of us.
- [08:29]
Tonya Moseley
Amanda, you have learned, as you've been talking about over the years through your criminal justice reform work, a lot of things about the system, but also just how common your interrogation experience is and was you spent more than 50 hours in a room questioned in Italian. Those who have never experienced interrogation, I mean, will likely never quite understand it, how one can actually say things that they didn't do or accuse others of things while under interrogation. But can you describe what it was like for you?
- [09:05]
Amanda Knox
Absolutely. First of all, it was the worst experience of my life. Worse than being convicted was being in that interrogation room, because I had never been. I had never been brought to the brink of my own sanity like that before and never again to this day. I was questioned for hours and hours and hours into the night so that I was sleep deprived. Some of it was just. Just what you would generally call bullying. Someone contradicts you, someone talks over you, they yell at you. I got slapped. Like, there was general, just, like, abuse and overpowering that was happening.
- [09:50]
Tonya Moseley
And was this all in Italian?
- [09:51]
Amanda Knox
Were you all speaking all in Italian?
- [09:54]
Tonya Moseley
And how good would you describe your Italian at that time?
- [09:57]
Amanda Knox
I did not speak fluent Italian. No. I was very elementary level. I certainly could not defend myself under an interrogation. And I think part of the problem was also that I wasn't sure if they were mad at me or were not understanding me because I was not speaking fluent Italian or because they were, in fact, suspecting me. Like, I could not interpret what was happening to me. I'd never even been in a situation where I had been in trouble before. Like, I'd never had to sit down with the principal and talk about being in trouble like that. Nothing like that had ever happened to me. So I was very much in a very new experience in the immediacy of discovering that my roommate had been murdered. So I was in a state of shock already. And I'm in a room with authority figures who I'm relying on for my safety and who I'd been raised to trust and obey. And they are yelling at me. They are contradicting me. They're telling me that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense. They're telling me that I'm lying. But then on top of that. So these. These are all, you know, these bullying tactics are very effective at getting people to falsely confess, but on top of that, they lied to me.
- [11:19]
Tonya Moseley
What was the biggest and most egregious.
- [11:21]
Amanda Knox
Lie, the biggest and most egregious lie was that they knew that I was present when the crime occurred. They knew?
- [11:30]
Tonya Moseley
That's what they told you that.
- [11:31]
Amanda Knox
Yes. They told me that they had incontrovertible proof that I was present at my house when the crime occurred, that I had witnessed the crime. And that was incredibly destabilizing for me because that was not what I remembered. Like, I was at my boyfriend's house the entire night. I kept insisting, that can't be true, that can't be true. But they insisted that it was true and they knew for sure. And so the next lie on top of that was that because I was present and that I had witnessed this crime, I had trauma induced amnesia. They insisted that my brain didn't remember the truth precisely because I had witnessed the crime and therefore was traumatized and my brain had been making up an alternate reality that I thought I was remembering staying at my boyfriend's house when in fact I was at my house when the crime occurred.
- [12:27]
Tonya Moseley
And you believed it. You. You started to believe that?
- [12:30]
Amanda Knox
I started to believe it because after hours of insisting upon my INNOC and that that wasn't true and that I wasn't lying, I started to question myself. Like I, I was so, again, like I was suggestible in that moment because I had just been like, there's only so long you can, you can argue with authority figures before you. At least for me, I started to question myself. It's classic gaslighting.
- [12:58]
Tonya Moseley
If you're just joining us, my guest is Amanda Knox. She's written a new memoir titled My Search for Meaning. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is FRESH Air Weekend.
- [13:12]
Progressive Insurance
Support for FRESH Air comes from whyy. Travel can do amazing things. Broaden people's horizons, create new relationships, and restore the soul. But for the people who live in these destinations, it often comes at a cost. Peak Travel, a podcast from whyy, circles the globe to understand the impact of tourism. Whether boarding a cruise in Alaska or touring ancient caves in Petra, hear how the tourism industry shapes communities and hotspots around the world. Find Peak Travel wherever you get your podcasts. This message comes from Bombas. Socks, underwear, and T shirts are the top three requested clothing items by people experiencing homelessness. Bombas makes all three and donates one item for every item purchased. Go to bombas.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off. This message comes from Warby Parker. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your pair@warbyparker.com or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country.
- [14:19]
Tonya Moseley
Amanda, I want to talk a little bit about your time in prison because you talk quite extensively or you write quite extensively about it in great detail, including you're a celebrity in there. I mean, there were women in.
- [14:33]
Amanda Knox
That's a work.
- [14:34]
Tonya Moseley
Well, I mean, just the reality of it was you were getting letters and gifts and others were not getting those things. You also were educated. You were a college student. How did you end up using that to survive in prison? But also, I mean, it sounded like you were also making yourself abuse.
- [14:56]
Amanda Knox
After my conviction, I really settled into this idea that this was my world. It was a very small world. It was very contained, it was very controlled. And it was populated by all of these women who, by comparison to me, were very unlucky. They were abused, they were neglected, they were impoverished. I think I was the only person there who had all of my teeth. The level of need and poverty that I encountered in that environment stunned me. I did not know that there were people who could not read an analog clock or that didn't know that the Earth was a sphere. And these were the people that were my community. And I was also the famous one. I was the one who was getting constant letters. So many of these women were just forgotten by everyone, including their own families. And so I looked at them and I thought, God, I am so lucky. And one way, you know, a very important way to survive prison is to be useful, because it's an environment where there's a lot of need and not a lot of resources. And I realized very quickly that I was, especially after a year in prison, and by that time I was fluent in Italian. I was able to function as a translator. So lots of the women that were imprisoned were not Italian, were not fluent in Italian, had no idea what anyone was telling them.
- [16:33]
Tonya Moseley
Where were they coming from? Were they from nearby countries or United States or what?
- [16:38]
Amanda Knox
A lot of people from various African nations, also Eastern Europe. But, you know, there was a couple Chinese women that were in there at one point, and I was translating for them by, like, taking. I just happened to have this English to Chinese dictionary because I'm a language nerd. Because there were no translators. There were no translators in the prison. So I ended up being the unofficial translator for everyone and every language. And then the other thing that became my sort of unofficial job was scribe. Everyone really thought that my handwriting was very Beautiful. And when you are someone who is in prison, especially if you're feeling lonely and are looking for some attention from some male counterpart, wherever he may be, you wanted to appear pretty to them. And the way that you could appear pretty is by having pretty handwriting.
- [17:31]
Tonya Moseley
And so would you write their letters to them?
- [17:33]
Amanda Knox
I would write their letters, yeah, their little love letters. And sometimes they got a little frisky with the love letter. They would just dictate to me and I would write down. But sometimes they would say, but, Amanda, you're better at saying this than us. Say this in like a really sexy way. And I was like, no, I'm just. You dictate, I write.
- [17:50]
Tonya Moseley
You know, this makes me think about. I mean, I mean, when you arrived In Italy, you're 20. You're just coming into your femininity, your sexuality, who you are as a woman, you and Raphael's relationship. You know, you had just gotten together a week prior, and you have all of these labels put on you on who you are as a sexual being. I thought it was really, really interesting that you talked about how you came fully into your self awareness of your body and your sexuality in prison.
- [18:23]
Amanda Knox
Yes. I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a very human thing to have a sexual identity, to have an intimate identity. And I was being vilified and punished for this perceived sexuality. And so I absolutely was in conflict with my own sexuality. Also, like you bring up Rafaele, and Rafaele is a deeply romantic person at heart. Like, we hit it off immediately, in part because he was a nerd, and I love a good nerd, but also because he was just so sweet and romantic with me from the get go. And even while we were, you know, surviving this insane struggle together, he was ready to continue to pursue a romance with me even while we were in prison and on trial. And I, because I was being so punished for my sexual identity, I resisted it. And I broke it off with him in prison because in part, I was feeling like the reason I was even in there was because I was a sexually active young woman. And then over the years, I first of all realized that my life might be spent a great portion of it inside these prison walls. And that an intimate life, a sexual life, was a part of being human. It wasn't something to be ashamed of. It wasn't something to repress. It was just one of the things that makes life worth living.
- [20:20]
Tonya Moseley
You write in the book about your life as a child growing up in the Pacific Northwest, in the Seattle area, roaming free in the wilderness and being in the woods, exploring, you're just kind of like a. It sounds like an outdoor kid. And the confines of prison, of course, is the opposite of that. What is your relationship to space now, outside of. Of prison?
- [20:43]
Amanda Knox
That is one of the sort of unresolved. I should probably go to therapy for this kind of thing. I'm very claustrophobic. I've actually always been claustrophobic. So that ended up becoming even more aggravated in prison. And even when I came home and I found myself in my childhood bedroom in a way that I was in another prison cell because I could, you know, look out of my window when I was in prison, I couldn't even do that when I first came home because there were paparazzi standing outside, like right outside of my house, just pointing their cameras at my windows. And so we had to have all of the windows closed and I. And, like, shuttered and draped. And I remember feeling really claustrophobic, like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I thought I was going to come out of prison, and now I'm feeling even more trapped. I can't leave my house. I can't leave my room. I can't open the windows. I can't. I can't. Like, I was struggling with panic attacks.
- [21:37]
Tonya Moseley
And I'm also thinking about just even being in your childhood room after four years, you know, many, many years of dealing with something and becoming a whole different person. One of the things you do in the book is you sort of break yourself up into different people. It's like the Amanda before you arrived in Italy, the woman that I think you call Foxy Knoxy, like your doppelganger. Not even you. And then the woman that you were post, once you came home, was that ever a struggle with interacting with your family? Because the person that they knew when you left was a person that was different when you came home.
- [22:17]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, absolutely. I think all of my family was really was fighting to get Amanda home again. Right. Like, they had given up so much of their lives and upended everything. Everything came about saving Amanda. And I think there was a level of disappointment when they realized that, yes, they had gotten Amanda out of prison, but they hadn't actually saved Amanda. Because the girl who I was, who had never had anything bad happen to her, who trusted everyone and who was always optimistic and always, you know, that person died in Italy and she had to be grieved. And I don't think my family was ready for that. I wasn't ready for that. And I think another thing that I had to realize too was that my family was also not the same after everything that had happened because they had gone through an experience that I did not have access to and they were changed in ways that I didn't expect. And so there were some rough, rough periods.
- [23:39]
Tonya Moseley
You told us earlier that so much of you doing this work for yourself to understand what the meaning of your life means and to be free comes from being a mom. You have a three year old daughter and have you thought about her Future? Her at 18 or 20 making the decision to go out and explore the world and how you will handle, what wisdom and lessons will you share with her?
- [24:03]
Amanda Knox
I have a three year old daughter and a one and a half year old son. Yeah, yeah, and he's a cutie. But Eureka is at that wonderful age where she wants to know everything and she wants to know why. And part of that has been, you know, my story. She wants to know about when mommy went to Italy and I thought a lot about how I would talk to her about this story. But I've realized that yes, I 100% believe in transparency and honesty and I should always answer my daughter's questions with age appropriate honesty and not treat this story as like this weird, taboo aspect of my life and our lives. But even more important than that, I think that children see what we do more than they listen to what we say. And I feel really confident that I can show my daughter that stuff will happen to you that is painful and out of your control and inevitable, but it doesn't define you and you can find your way through it. All of us go through something and I want her to see deep down that that is not the end and that is not all. And that in fact that is just the beginning. And I feel so confident that I can do that for her and I can be there for her.
- [25:34]
Tonya Moseley
Amanda Knox, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much.
- [25:37]
Amanda Knox
Thank you.
- [25:39]
Tonya Moseley
Amanda Knox's new memoir is Free My Search for Meaning. Lucy Daikus is a young singer songwriter perhaps best known as one third of the trio Boy Genius. Along with Julian Baker and Phoebe Bridgers, Jeffrey Lewis is a middle aged singer songwriter who is not very well known but is the author of at least 30 albums and EPs. Each has a new album. Dacus is called Forever Is a Feeling and Lewis's is titled the Even More Free Willin. Jeffrey Lewis. Our rock critic Ken Tucker says that between the two of them they demonstrate the wide musical and emotional range of confessional songwriting.
- [26:20]
Lucy Dacus
Loving father, friend and son printed backwards on my shoulder blade from leaning back on A plaque on a bench. I carry David's name until it fades. Why does it feel significant? Why do I have to tell you about it?
- [26:47]
Ken Tucker
Why does it feel significant? Why do I have to tell you about it? In two short sentences, Lucy Dacus summarizes decades of motivation behind singer songwriter pop music. It's that mixture of confession and melody that creates an illusion of intimacy, the feeling that we really know the artist. Indeed, feeling is what Dacus new album is all about. It could not be more feely. It's called Forever is a Feeling, and I'm happy to say that her general mood is romantic and optimistic. On the song Best Guess, she sings her affection to a close friend who's become a lover.
- [27:27]
Lucy Dacus
After all, it's a small world. You may not be an angel but you are my girl you are my pack of you are my favorite place. You were my best friend before. You were my best guess at the future you are my best guest. If I were a gambling man I am. You'd be my best guy. You are my best friend.
- [28:09]
Ken Tucker
Dacus small, intimate voice is tailor made to be heard whispering in the ears of fans glued to the small screens of their phones. Even her proclamations of passion are subtle and modest. A song called Ankles reaches back to a time when a woman showing a bit of her ankle was considered daringly erotic. Dacus takes pleasure in transporting this feeling to a contemporary context.
- [28:34]
Lucy Dacus
Agent of chaos, angel of death, one of three ancient fates. Playing with your scissors again how lucky are we to have soul so much to lose now don't move when I tell you what to do. Pull me by the anles to be there to the bed and take me like you do in your dreams I'm not going to stop you I'm not going to stop you this time baby I want you to show me what you mean and help me with the crossword. In the morning you are gonna make me tea gonna ask me how did I sleep.
- [29:49]
Ken Tucker
Lucy Dacus and Jeffrey Lewis both compose acoustic bass singer songwriter music in which the first person singular is deployed to announce emotions and opinions. But they could not be more different. For 20 years now, Lewis has been eloquent, crass, romantic and realistic, frequently all in the same song. When he writes a confessional lyric, he exposes more than a well turned ankle. Not bothering with artful metaphors.
- [30:17]
Jeffrey Lewis
Try to see your parents more because they're so weak and old now, but they just can't let you live without always being told how. Then spend time with your child. Be responsible and silent, but you lose it, Then you know that you're a monster and a tyrant. It's family so you call because you're too grown up to fume but somehow you've hung up and thrown the phone across the room Cause you're a weakling and a loser. You just never get it right. Down from the way that you were raised to how your own home is tonight, these are the ones you love the best. So why is it always such a mess and what the hell's it for since you're rotten to the core? Well, it's fun, it's just fun.
- [30:56]
Ken Tucker
Lewis's new album is called the even more freewheeling Jeffrey Lewis, the title and cover photo a nod to Bob Dylan's early New York City folky days. A dedicated New Yorker himself, Lewis gets louder and more low down on this album centerpiece. A great song about just how painful daily existence can be called Sometimes Life Hits you.
- [31:19]
Jeffrey Lewis
Might have a nice life with coffee and friends you can call. Could have a Shakespeare collection, Might have read them all. Could have a family that made you nicer than some folks had. Could have a family that you made that isn't so bad. Well you can build up your armor against what life brings. You can dodge when life kicks and you can duck when life swings. You can outsmart all sadness and outfight with the best. But sometimes life hits you like a chisel to the chest. Then you say ow rapper. Ow rapper. Ow. That hurt. There'll be something.
- [32:08]
Ken Tucker
This is the musical equivalent of hitting your thumb with a hammer. And on the less radio friendly version of that song, Lewis inserts a pungent four letter curse between the words Ow. And that hurts. Lucy Dacus makes clear that she too has experienced moments when, in Jeffrey Lewis phrase, life hits you like a chisel to the chest. Both of these artists have their flaws. Lewis is sometimes too yammeringly self absorbed. Dacas is sometimes too much of a monotone mumbler. Each can flatten music that ought to sound more airy and buoyant. But their best songs answer Dacus question that began this review. Why do I have to tell you about it? For both Dacus and Lewis, the answer because it feels good to unburden yourself and maybe lift a burden or confirm a feeling for your listeners as well.
- [33:01]
Tonya Moseley
Ken Tucker reviewed new music from Lucy Dacus and Jeffrey Lewis. Coming up, we'll hear from British actor Stephen Graham. He stars in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence as the father of a 13 year old boy arrested for murder. I'm Tanya Moseley and this is FRESH Air weekend.
- [33:19]
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- [34:30]
Tonya Moseley
Our next guest, British actor Stephen Graham stars in not one but two new Hulu's A Thousand Blows and the Netflix mini series Adolescence. He spoke with Fresh Air producer Sam Brigger.
- [34:43]
Sam Brigger
Here's Sam in the historical drama A Thousand Blows, Stephen Graham plays a bare knuckle boxer in Victorian London, prone to rage and more likely to beat you up than have a conversation with you. The show was created by Steven Knight, who also created Peaky Blinders, something you may have caught Stephen Graham in in its final season, playing the character of union man Hayden Stagg. The other show that Stephen Graham is in is Adolescence, one he co created. It's a four part miniseries following what happens to a family when their 13 year old son is arrested for murdering a girl from his school. It's a devastating show, very difficult to watch and very difficult to stop watching. Graham plays the father, Eddie, trying his best to be a good parent but maybe not doing enough. Adolescence as a show is not interested so much in who is guilty. But why do these kinds of things happen? Is it the family's fault? Is it bullying? Is it part of a kind of toxic masculinity young boys can find on social media while they're sitting alone, supposedly safe in their own bedrooms? The show is remarkable in many ways, but one of them is technical. Each episode is a one take. There are no edits. The camera is turned on at the beginning of the episode and turned off at the end. They're like plays but moving throughout different locations and scenes. It adds an urgency to the drama. Before we start talking, let's hear a scene from adolescence. This is from the first episode where the police have raided the family's home, arrested the son Jamie and taken him to the police station. Here, Steven Graham, who is in shock, is asking Jamie's court appointed lawyer, played by Mark Stanley, what he can do in this moment of crisis.
- [36:25]
Interrogator
Excuse me, mate. Yeah, I am. I haven't got a clue what I'm doing here. I don't know what to say. Just don't answer for him, all right? Just, just be yourself. They know you're his dad. We know you're his dad. It's, it's okay to process. It's okay to be shocked and it's, it's okay to be human. Yeah. I mean, this, this isn't normal. Do you know what I mean? No. Never even been in a police station before. You'll be, I just don't want to get it wrong for me lad, you.
- [37:02]
Sam Brigger
Know what I mean?
- [37:03]
Interrogator
You'll be fine.
- [37:05]
Sam Brigger
That's a scene from Adolescence starring my guest, Stephen Graham. Stephen Graham, welcome to FRESH air.
- [37:11]
Interrogator
Thank you. What a wonderful introduction. Thank you very much.
- [37:15]
Sam Brigger
So this show, adolescence was actually your idea. You came to your co creator, Jack Thorne with the idea what was it that you were thinking about that you wanted to explore on the screen?
- [37:26]
Interrogator
It happened a while ago, to be honest with you, Sam. I read an article in the, in a newspaper which, it was about a young boy who had stabbed a young girl to death. And it just made me feel quite cold. And I was stunned by, you know, what I was reading. And then about three or four months later, there was a story on the news on television and I was watching it and it was again, it was about a young boy who had stabbed a young girl to death. And this incident was the opposite end to the country, to the first incident that I'd read about. And at that point, if I'm completely honest, it really hurt my heart. But in that moment, I judged the parents. And I instantly said to myself, you know, it's got to be down to the parents. And then I stopped myself and tried to be mindful and, and questioned the fact that what if it's not? Maybe I shouldn't be so judgmental. What if it's not? And from that basis, from that premise, I just thought, well, why is this happening? Why are we in this situation where you Know, young boys, and they are young boys, they're not men. You know, their brains haven't been fully formed yet. Their physiology is not completed yet. You know, the adolescence is a very difficult age, as we all. No, do you know what I mean? You go through a lot of different things, physically, mentally and even spiritually in the greater scheme of things. You know what I mean? But my main question was, why? Why is this happening?
- [39:00]
Sam Brigger
And I guess that one of the things is that you're exploring why, but you're not. It's not a didactic show. You sort of let the feelings and the issues sort of stew there, but you're not resolving them.
- [39:12]
Interrogator
No, not at all. And, you know, ultimately, I think. I think that's one of the main themes of the show, is that they can't be resolved and we don't have the answers. There's a wonderful saying, which is, it takes a village to raise a child. And within that kind of complexity of what that says to me, within what we are doing, it's kind of like maybe we're all accountable. And that comes down to, you know, the parenting, maybe how we parent our children, the school system, how the education system guides and tries to educate our children, the government, you know, how they can bring in legislation, the community and the environment of where we live. And then on top of that, now, which was something that me and you never had to suffer from and our parents never had to think about, but there is now this big thing called the Internet, when a child closes the door. Back in the day, when it was me and you, we didn't have access to the rest of the world, and we couldn't be influenced dramatically by other people, their theories and their thought processes. So that was what we really wanted to look at. You know what I mean? Maybe we're all accountable in some way for what is happening today in our society.
- [40:24]
Sam Brigger
So your character Eddie is a successful businessman. He has a plumbing business. He's lifted himself up in the world. He's trying to be a good husband and a good father. You say that you based him to some degree on your uncle's and your friends, fathers. What was it about them that you took?
- [40:43]
Interrogator
For me, Eddie, the character that I played, I wanted to make him more like that kind of archetypal man, in a way, the kind of men that I was brought up with, like my uncles and like I've said, you know, my friends, fathers and stuff like that, who are beautiful, wonderful men, hardworking men who go to work, say, maybe 6:00 7:00 in the morning and don't manage to get back home till gone. Six, seven, eight at night, you know what I mean? So the kind of area that they live in is it's a really nice housing estate, you know what I mean? It's a well to do area in many ways. It's far from upper class and it's a working class household in a really nice area. So I wanted to concentrate on the fact that they come from a good home and there's a lot of love in that home. The mother and father primarily are doing the best for their children. And his sister is an A level student. You know, she's a really hard working, conscientious student. Because it's unconventional for us to follow the story through the eyes of the family who are from the perpetrator. Normally, as you can imagine, it would be the victim side of it, and rightly so, do you know what I mean? In that conventional drama, that's what we would see. But also what I wanted to try and do with this process was eliminated the possibilities of pointing the finger and saying, well, this is why. So I didn't want it to be like dad raised his hand and hit his boy. So normally would be we could be able to point the finger in that direction and say, this is why he did it. But we wanted to eliminate that and start with a clean slate.
- [42:23]
Sam Brigger
So just talking about the sort of technical issue, as I said, like each of these episodes is one take. There's no editing. This is similar to a movie that you did a few years back called Boiling Point, which takes place in a restaurant. It's a great film, but it's one location. But here, like in this first episode, you start in the family home and then you drive to the station. The camera's following you and then you have to get all the other actors from the house to the station. Like talk about some of the technical things that you had to figure out.
- [42:59]
Interrogator
The beauty of this is where we have three weeks to shoot each episode. But what we do within that context is for the first week we rehearse the script. And we, we go through the script like we're about to do a play.
- [43:12]
Sam Brigger
Because they are kind of like little plays. I mean.
- [43:14]
Interrogator
Yeah, yeah, of course. And that's the beauty of it, you know, but we rehearsed that. We rehearse the script and we go through the script and it was great because we had myself there and we had Jack the writer. So it was a beautiful position that we were in where we could tweak the language, we could adjust what was happening to our environment. And in the same respect, you know, look, me and Jack are not 14 year old boys, but we could ask Owen, what would he say in these particular situations?
- [43:43]
Sam Brigger
Owen is Owen Cooper, who plays your son Jamie.
- [43:46]
Interrogator
Yes, yeah, that's right. Owen Cooper, who's phenomenal in the piece. But within that context, we could get to use the real authentic language. It's such a gift because you're able to marry both disciplines. So you have that spontaneity in the live kind of feeling and exhilaration of theater, but you have the technical ability and the kind of nuance and the realism of film and television acting.
- [44:13]
Sam Brigger
Right.
- [44:13]
Interrogator
But then also because of the technique of it being a one shot, you know, you're able, like in episode two to travel all around the school, which.
- [44:24]
Sam Brigger
Was an actual location with hundreds of kids walking around.
- [44:28]
Interrogator
Yes, yeah, it really was. And it was actually, you know, for I think, about 150 of our extras of the supporting artists. It was their school.
- [44:37]
Sam Brigger
Yeah.
- [44:38]
Interrogator
So that was great because they, you know, they know the place and they really felt at home. So in that first week we work on a script, and in the second week we work with all of the crew. All of the crew come on set and we negotiate and we begin to walk through our pathway of what we're going to do and where we're going to go and how we're going to get there. And that's when you have everybody about. So, you know, you can. Then the sound department, they can plant mics here and there. So we really, really meticulously go over and over and over and over our movements. And the third week is when we begin to shoot. So we do two takes a day. So sometimes, you know, hopefully at the minimum, we will have 10 takes.
- [45:19]
Sam Brigger
10 complete takes.
- [45:21]
Interrogator
Yeah. So we shop for five days and you do two takes a day. But as is with episode one, the take you see is take two. With episode two, the take we used was take 14.
- [45:37]
Sam Brigger
Would, you know, after doing all your takes that you were kind of leaning towards one that you would eventually use or.
- [45:42]
Interrogator
Well, I did, personally, I did on. I did on the first one. I knew it was the second take. I just knew it was. And I was kind of like, can we go home now? And Phil was like, no, look, we're being paid to be here for the rest of the week. And I said to Phil, it's not going to get better than that. And he was like, you never know. And I was like, Trust me, that's it.
- [46:03]
Sam Brigger
I wanted to play another clip from the show. And this comes from episode four, which is really about the fallout that the family is dealing with, having their son accused of murder. It's a really devastating episode. And I wanted to play a part of a scene between your character and your wife, who's played by Christine Trimarco. And you're basically trying to figure out, how do we get here? How did things go so wrong and what could you have possibly done differently? So let's hear that scene.
- [46:38]
Interrogator
He has a terrible temper, but so have you. Don't say that. I didn't give him that, did I?
- [46:49]
Sam Brigger
What?
- [46:50]
Interrogator
Did I give him that?
- [46:51]
Amanda Knox
No.
- [46:55]
Interrogator
But I do sometimes think we should have stopped it, seen it and stopped it. We can't think like that. Remember? That's what she said. It's not our fault. We can't blame ourselves.
- [47:16]
Lucy Dacus
But we made them, didn't we?
- [47:23]
Interrogator
When I was his age, my dad used to batter me sometimes. He'd take the bell to me and he'd whack me, and he'd whack, whack me. And I promised myself, I said, when I had my own kids, I'd never do that. I'd never. I'd never do that to me kids. And I didn't, did I? I just wanted to be better. But am I? I'm not better. You tried to be. We both did.
- [48:11]
Sam Brigger
That's from adolescence, the final episode of the show. This episode is devastating. And the show is gonna stay with me, I think, forever or a very long time. And. And it's really hard to watch. It's really well made, it's really compelling. But you go through a lot of very intense emotions in this episode. Like you have a complete breakdown at one point as an actor. How hard is that to go through? I guess. Is there an aftermath that you have to reckon with after doing that kind of performance?
- [48:53]
Interrogator
For a lot of people it is, yeah. And I understand it, and I get it. And. And to some extent, I think maybe there is. For me, I'm also able to jump in and jump out and decompress quite quickly now, which is a kind of technique I've learned myself over time.
- [49:08]
Sam Brigger
So you do have tools for that.
- [49:10]
Interrogator
Yeah, yeah. And those tools are. Well, the biggest tool for that is my wife, Honey, on many levels. You know, if I phone it and say, it's been a really tough day at work today, love, you know, I had to cry and stuff, she'd be, oh, really? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go, oh, my. Do I sound like a. And she'd be like, yes. She'll go, well, I'll tell you what, the dog, of course, yeah. But she understands it and she does it. And, you know, if there's anyone that can dive into emotions when they're on set, it's Hannah. She's unbelievable.
- [49:40]
Sam Brigger
She's great.
- [49:42]
Interrogator
So when I try and do it, Sam, she just goes, oh, well, the dog had diarrhea all over the carpet this morning. And I'm like, oh. And she went. And I had to go shopping, and the car ran out of petrol while I was on the motorway. And I'm like, cry me a river, Steven. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of where she goes. But again, you know. And I got. And I know, look, for me, family is the most important thing to me. They're my rock. They make me the man who I am. Do you know what I mean? I am here because of them mainly as well. And just to share this with you. And these are the tricks of the trade on that last scene, on that episode, it was the very last take. So, again, my kids, both Grace, my daughter and Alfie, were there, and Hannah was there for that day. And for that last take, when I go into the bedroom, I had no idea, Sam, that they'd done it. Honestly, I didn't. And I'd gone into that bedroom, obviously, 15 times. And so I had a kind of idea of what I was going to do and what I was going through. And Philip come up with a beautiful idea when we were in rehearsals, and he said, I'm just gonna put a teddy bear on the bed. And I was like, why? And he was like, just see what happens. So all the maternal instincts he felt for that teddy bear kind of just come from nowhere, do you know what I mean? In many ways, because it's a replacement for his son. But anyway, when I came into the room, what Hannah and the kids had done, and this is the take that you see, so this is where it comes from as well. What? Hannah, I'm already in the moment. Don't get me wrong. I'm completely in the moment. But what my kids and Hannah have done, they put photographs on the wall of. Of them and me, and they just put, we're so proud of you, dad. We love you so much. And. And obviously then you can imagine I've told you, I'm a very soppy person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I just too.
- [51:29]
Sam Brigger
Just listen.
- [51:30]
Interrogator
Yeah. And I just went, do you know what I mean, it was like it just all came out. And then when I'd finished that particular senior, they grabbed all to me and yeah, they didn't let go of me for a while. And I and I did cry for quite a bit of time after that, actually, but we all cried on that set after that particular scene when we'd finished it.
- [51:50]
Sam Brigger
Stephen Graham, thank you so much for coming on FRESH air.
- [51:53]
Interrogator
Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure.
- [51:56]
Tonya Moseley
Stephen Graham spoke with FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger. Graham is starring in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence and Hulu's A Thousand Blows. Fresh AIR weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.
- [52:40]
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