Terry Gross (2:45)

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Ben Stiller has made a very personal documentary about his parents and what it was like, like to be their son. Ben's father, Jerry Stiller co starred on Seinfeld playing Frank Costanza, George's father. Ben's mother Ann Mera was an actress. Together, Ben's parents were known as the comedy duo Stiller and Mera. They were so popular in the 60s and 70s they were on the Ed Sullivan show more than 30 times. Sometimes Ben went with them to their appearances on TV talk shows and in nightclubs. In 20, 25 years after Meara's death, Jerry Stiller died While Ben was going through his father's possessions, he was stunned to discover stashed away many cassette and reel to reel audio recordings Jerry Stiller had made. They documented his life and his relationship with Ann, including recordings of conversations with Anne in which they had disagreements about their marriage and their act. Some of those conversations are included in the documentary along with video clips of their sketches from their TV appearances. The documentary Stiller and Nothing Is Lost is streaming on Apple tv. Ben Stiller has been famous for years as an actor, starring in such films as Zoolander, Meet the Parents, Night at the Museum and their sequels, as well as Dodgeball, Tropic Thunder and the Royal Tenenbaums. In the last few years he's been doing more and more directing and producing. Now he's the executive producer and primary director of the popular Emmy Award winning Apple TV series Severance. Let's start with a clip from the new documentary Stiller and Nothing Is Lost. This is an excerpt of one of the audio recordings of Ben's parents rehearsing a sketch about how the couple they're portraying hate each other, not realizing that Ben's sister, who was then a child, is overhearing them thinking the argument is real. At the end of this recording, we'll hear Ben and his sister Amy looking back at that time.

Ben Stiller (4:51)

We have a sketch which we call Hate Heat of your hot hate. You know, I say to Anne, I hate you. And she says, you hate me? I hate you. And one day Amy, who's six, came into the room and she heard us saying this to each other. And we looked at her for a moment and we didn't know what to say. So we said, amy, mommy, daddy rehearse. Mommy, daddy rehearse. And Amy looked at us and she started to smile. Well, about two weeks later we were fighting and Amy walked in and she.

Terry Gross (5:17)

Said, mommy, Daddy rehearsed.

Cynthia Erivo (5:19)

No mommy, daddy fight.

Tanya Mosley (5:20)

Get out of here.

Ben Stiller (5:21)

It gets to be a little complicated sometimes.

Tanya Mosley (5:23)

I hated you before I met you.

Ben Stiller (5:25)

I hated you before you were born to me. That's like one of the things that I think about is just how that became sort of like, yeah, that's the laugh. That's the funny joke. But what is the reality of that story, though?

Cynthia Erivo (5:38)

We don't know, Ben.

Terry Gross (5:39)

That's why we're so messed up.

Ben Stiller (5:42)

That's why we're doing this documentary. That's why we're gonna figure it out.

Terry Gross (5:45)

So those last two voices were Ben Stiller and his sister Amy. Ben Stiller, welcome back to FRESH air. This is a really probing, emotionally deep movie. I really, really liked it. So the clip that we open with is your sister not being able to tell sometimes what was a real fight and what was a rehearsal for a sketch. Did you experience anything like that?

Ben Stiller (6:13)

Yeah. Nice to be with you, Terry. Yeah. In this apartment that we lived in, they had a living room. We called it the big living room. It wasn't that big, but that they would use as their office when we were. And then I think when I was like, 13 or 14, they got an office on 57th Street. But most of the time they'd been in this office in the apartment working. So we would just hear them, you know, doing their thing in there. And sometimes their voices would be raised. And, yeah, sometimes there were arguments that happened, and it was kind of just like part of our lives. It was like, yeah, mom and dad are doing their thing in there. And as a kid, I don't think you question these things. It's just like what your parents do.

Terry Gross (6:56)

So a lot of people know your father, Jerry Stiller from Seinfeld, playing George's father, Frank Costanza, but they don't necessarily know Stiller and Mira routines. So I want to play one of their better known ones that I think is really funny. And this goes back to the really early days of computer dating. And I think at this point, you didn't have your own computer. This is the period where you'd send in your information and they'd put it through a computer at the company and then send you back a match. Am I right in thinking that?

Ben Stiller (7:36)

I think so. I don't know how it worked, but it definitely was pre personal computers.

Terry Gross (7:40)

This was in the 60s. Yeah. Okay.

Ben Stiller (7:42)

But I think the idea of a computer being able to match people up, that was the new thing that was happening.

Terry Gross (7:51)

So this borrows from your parents actual marriage because your father is Jewish. Your mother was Irish and Catholic, although she later converted to Judaism. So in this sketch, the computer dating service has set them up together, and your father's name in the sketch is Hershey Horowitz. And your mother's name in the sketch is Mary Elizabeth Doyle. Where you from?

Cynthia Erivo (8:19)

Me?

Tanya Mosley (8:19)

I'm from Flatbush.

Terry Gross (8:20)

Oh, really?

Ben Stiller (8:21)

That's where I'm from. You're kidding. East 42nd Street.

Tanya Mosley (8:23)

I live on East 42nd Street.

Ben Stiller (8:24)

Oh, that's amazing. That's my blog.

Terry Gross (8:26)

Really?

Tanya Mosley (8:26)

Hey, this computer really works.

Terry Gross (8:27)

Yeah.

Ben Stiller (8:28)

Gee, that's fine.

Tanya Mosley (8:29)

Hey, you know Richie Flanagan?

Ben Stiller (8:30)

Richie Flanagan?

Cynthia Erivo (8:31)

Yeah.

Tanya Mosley (8:31)

Tall, skinny kid?

Ben Stiller (8:32)

No. Do you know Morris Goldstein?

Tanya Mosley (8:35)

Goldstein? No, I don't know him. You know Mary Ellen Moriarty?

Ben Stiller (8:38)

Mary Ellen Moriarty? No. Do you know Moishe Beta Motion?

Cynthia Erivo (8:43)

No.

Ben Stiller (8:43)

Moish Beta.

Sponsor Announcer (8:44)

Moishe?

Terry Gross (8:45)

No. No.

Tanya Mosley (8:45)

I would remember.

Ben Stiller (8:48)

Do you know Elliott Blumenfeld?

Tanya Mosley (8:50)

No, I don't know him. You know Danny McQueenie?

Ben Stiller (8:51)

No.

Tanya Mosley (8:52)

Timothy Sheehy?

Ben Stiller (8:53)

No.

Tanya Mosley (8:53)

Tommy Tuohy? No.

Ben Stiller (8:54)

Stanley Austin?

Tanya Mosley (8:55)

No, I don't know him.

Ben Stiller (8:56)

Adolph Hausman?

Terry Gross (8:57)

No.

Tanya Mosley (8:57)

Xavier Duffy?

Ben Stiller (8:58)

No. Mike Schoenfeld?

Tanya Mosley (8:59)

Grace Mary McGinnity?

Ben Stiller (9:00)

Raymond Kish?

Tanya Mosley (9:01)

Kathleen Hall?

Sponsor Announcer (9:02)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:02)

Sis Hall?

Ben Stiller (9:03)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:03)

Junior Hall?

Terry Gross (9:04)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:04)

Mike Hall?

Ben Stiller (9:05)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:05)

Marguerite Hall?

Terry Gross (9:06)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:06)

Raymond Hall?

Terry Gross (9:07)

No.

Tanya Mosley (9:07)

You don't know the Halls?

Terry Gross (9:08)

No.

Ben Stiller (9:09)

You know Seymour Aaron Price?

Tanya Mosley (9:11)

No, I don't know him.

Ben Stiller (9:11)

You know the Lepson brothers?

Tanya Mosley (9:12)

No, I don't know that.

Ben Stiller (9:13)

Audie and Jerry?

Tanya Mosley (9:14)

You know the Monahan twins, Maureen and Moira?

Terry Gross (9:16)

No.

Ben Stiller (9:17)

That's a pretty big block that these 47. Those were all my mother's cousins she was naming.

Terry Gross (9:26)

Oh, no. Really? That's so funny.

Ben Stiller (9:28)

Yeah. Yeah.

Terry Gross (9:28)

You know, it's interesting. I don't know if the listeners heard this, but my headphones. I could hear you laughing during the sketch and you must have heard it like hundreds of times. But the timing is so good and it's so funny.

Ben Stiller (9:42)

Yeah, it was fun. I mean, it's just something about, you know, just the concept of the sketch, that they're from such different worlds and those names are so specific. It just makes me laugh and. Yeah, still funny to me.

Terry Gross (9:54)

There were conflicts that existed in your parents marriage that also existed in their working relationship. And your parents had really different approaches to performing and different levels of anxiety. Before I play a clip that kind of illustrates some of that, I want you to explain what some of the differences were that would get in the way of both performances and the marriage.

Ben Stiller (10:30)

Well, I think the core difference was that my dad was really wanted to do comedy and I'm not sure my mom really wanted to because she was.

Terry Gross (10:40)

A dramatic actress before doing comedy. Yeah.

Ben Stiller (10:43)

She was studying with UTA Hagen in HB Studios in the Village and a teacher named Alfred Linder, I remember she talked about and was very committed to being a dramatic actress. And then my dad had dreamed of being Eddie Cantor and being a stand up. And both of them grew up during the Depression. And I think for for my dad, that was his beacon, his way out were these comedians. And he had this drive that I'm amazed at what he had to do to get out of that Lower east side tenement and realize his goal of doing this, which he did. And when he met my mom, I think he fell in love with her. And creatively he was just so connected to her and he saw her brilliance and how good she was at acting. And also he knew she was funny. Maybe it was just in, you know, in them interacting with each other. And he drew her into doing this comedy act. They'd been living together for seven or eight years, married and were starving actors. And he had this idea to take their situation and turn it into a, you know, into these little sketches. And that changed their lives. But my mother really never had that dream. So in approaching going on stage, and this is the irony I think is really it's always fascinated me is that my mother was naturally great at live performing, and I feel that my father had to work at it more. So that was sort of always the dynamic throughout their whole lives when they would approach having to perform, the preparation was very different.

Terry Gross (12:26)

And he seemed more anxious about performing.

Ben Stiller (12:31)

Well, I think he loved to perform, but he needed to just rehearse and go over it again and again. And I think of myself, I don't love live performing. I think I'm probably maybe a little more like my dad that way. And my mom was much more I don't know if she just would kind of go out there and go with it and had just this sort of natural ability to be on stage and let it happen and, and be comfortable on stage.

Terry Gross (13:02)

If you're just joining us, my guest is actor, director and producer Ben Stiller. His new documentary is about the lives and careers of his late parents, Jerry Stiller and Ann Meara. He's also an executive producer and primary director of the TV series Severance. The documentary Anne Severance are streaming on Apple tv. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH.

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Ben Stiller (14:07)

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Terry Gross (15:06)

What were some of the fun parts for you of having celebrity parents? And then we'll get to the downside.

Ben Stiller (15:13)

I mean, there wasn't. Honestly, it was a lot of fun. It's so interesting because when you really analyze it, to think about what the downside was at the time, there wasn't a downside for us as kids. We were just living in this world where my parents would go out and either they'd go out late and play a nightclub. I remember when they played nightclubs in New York and that was really exciting for us. We get to stay up late, hang out with the grownups. Interesting, funny people coming in and out of the house. They would have these New Year's Eve parties, my parents, at their apartment in the late 70s and into the 80s that were just, you know, amazing. And as kids it was really fun to be around. I loved going on sets when they would go out to la, if they'd do a show like Courtship of Eddie's Father or to be on, you know, the Paramount Studios lot. And for me it made me want to, you know, make movies. Being around that, it was very clear early on that that's what I wanted to do. So it was a lot of fun times and more interesting to my sister and I than school for sure.

Terry Gross (16:20)

You and your sister, Amy were on talk shows with your parents. And once you even played. Was this with Mike Douglas, that you played a violin duet of Chopsticks with her?

Ben Stiller (16:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

Terry Gross (16:33)

And I should mention here, it was awful. There's cutaways to your parents laughing as you both play violin and perform. I bet you didn't know at the time that they were laughing.

Ben Stiller (16:44)

I mean, I look at their faces because basically what they, you know, they were co hosts, the Mike Douglas show. And what that meant was they would sit there with him as all the other guests came on, and they would do a week of shows in one day down in Philadelphia. And so they would send a limousine again, this was very exciting for us as kids. They send a limousine up to New York and we go down with my parents in the limo. They'd do two shows in the morning, we'd go to a restaurant called Bookbinders for lunch that I remember as a kid, where they had lobsters in a tank. And it was just all very really exciting. Then they go do the other shows and go home. And I guess one time they brought us on because they were just looking for bits to do. And I think when I watch them laughing, I see them laughing, but also inside, because we're so not good. But they're like, oh, this all right. The audience is enjoying this, but we're kind of like, oh, I want my kids to do good. And also, why did we put them in this situation? I feel all that when I look at their faces.

Terry Gross (17:43)

Well, speaking of putting you in that situation, were there times that you were uncomfortable being on the talk show set and being asked questions by whoever was hosting that particular show? Because I kind of question whether it's fair to the kids to put them in something that they're too young to understand, what it means to be on TV and what the consequences or what the upside might be.

Ben Stiller (18:10)

Yeah. I mean, I even did it with my daughter, and I have that in the movie, too, where I put her in Secret Life of Walter Mitty when she was 8. And then I cut the part out, which I don't recommend ever doing that with your kid. But I put her in the movie.

Terry Gross (18:24)

Putting them in the movie.

Ben Stiller (18:25)

Well, I put her in the movie and then I cut the scene out of the movie because the scene wasn't right for the movie. But, of course, my daughter remembers that I cut her out when she was 8 years old. But it was the same feeling, though, on the set. You put a kid in that situation as it was happening. I'm like, oh, man, this is so much pressure on her. And then I was feeling the pressure too. And I'm sure that's what my parents were feeling at the time, but not thinking it through. I think at the time they just were like, yeah, this would be a fun thing to do. And we probably said to them, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to do it, we want to do it. You know, not thinking of what the implications could be in terms of, you know, psychological trauma years later.

Terry Gross (19:04)

What were the consequences?

Ben Stiller (19:05)

I mean, I don't feel like I was traumatized from that experience, but I remember other little things. I mean, when you're a kid, things like that obviously affect you on a deep level. You just, you know, it's how you process it later and sometimes you don't realize. I remember just thinking about being on a game show set. I remember when my parents were doing the $10,000 pyramid once and they had this area on the set called the Winner's circle where you go for the final round. And they had two chairs where the you, the contestant and the star would sit opposite each other. And there were microphones set up. And I remember at lunchtime I went down to the Winner's Circle and sat in the chair and I touched the microphone and the microphone moved. And then a stage manager or someone yelled at me and said, hey, hey, don't move. That. That microphone was set for whichever actor was there. And that I've remembered my whole life as being traumatized by that. So things like that when you're a kid in a grown up situation can really affect you.

Terry Gross (20:05)

You think that your mother was not always comfortable with being a mother, that she found it kind of stressful. And you think that's in part because she lost her mother when she was 10. You know, during her part of her formative years, she didn't have a mother who she could later model herself on or decide, I'm not going to do it that way, I'm going to do it my way. Did you sense that discomfort when you were a child? Yeah.

Ben Stiller (20:34)

And she talked about it a lot when she was older. Yeah, that she lost her mom when she was about 10. She was an only child. This was in 1941, I think. And she, you know, I think it was a really lonely, tough childhood for her. Her dad loved her and did as much as he could for her. But I think when she finally had kids, she was daunted by how to be a mom. And then, of course, having to then balance that with the performing. She wanted to have kids, but then you know, when she also had to do all of this high pressure live performing when the kids were at such a young age. I can imagine that was a really, really hard thing for her. And I sensed it subconsciously, I think, as a kid. Of course, you just absorb everything from your parents when you're a kid and when you're around them. So stuff that you are aware of, stuff you're not aware of. And I felt it. I felt the tension with her and my dad when they would be getting ready to perform. And I talk about the drinking in the movie. That was something that, you know, wasn't discussed in our house. And I think it was. Cause my dad didn't really know how to. How to deal with that. And he was trying the best he could to figure out how to manage this relationship and this, you know, this marriage and this working relationship that was their livelihood. So we sensed it. But it was, you know, stuff that I kind of processed later in life.

Terry Gross (22:17)

So you really enjoyed going to clubs where your parents were performing or to the Ed Sullivan Show. But also, although you loved hanging out with your parents and the other stars, one of the tough parts of having parents in a comedy duo was that they were gone a lot. They toured a lot. You're on the Ed Sullivan show over 30 times and you're gonna get booked all over the country. So they became pretty famous. I remember seeing them on Ed Sullivan. So you were without your parents a good deal of the time. And the person who was with you was your nanny who partly raised you. So what was her life like when they were gone? How did that absence affect you?

Ben Stiller (23:06)

Yeah, so Hazel, Hugh was our nanny. Hazel took care of us and was, you know, basically since I think the time that I was probably about 4 years old and she was from Jamaica and she had seven kids of her own and they lived in Brooklyn. And we became very close with her family, with her kids, because they were, you know, some of them were Amy and my age. And my parents would go away for like a two week stint to LA to do whichever show, game show or Love Boat or whatever it was. And, you know, Hazel was, you know, she was so sweet. She knew she had to be the disciplinarian and keep us in line. But we would also kind of have our own secret world going on, my sister and I. And it was kind of like a free for all a little bit when we were on our own, you know, we'd stay up late sometimes, try to sneak out. And as we got older and became teenagers, you know, Then there were other things going on. Like, my sister started going to Studio 54 when she was, I think she was like 17. And I guess I can talk about this, Terry. Now, I was 13 and she would take me to Studio 54 with her friends and we'd sneak us in. Yeah.

Terry Gross (24:29)

How did you get into Studio 54?

Ben Stiller (24:32)

You know what? Studio 54, like the whole thing was outside. There's like people waiting to get in. Right. The bouncers have to choose you.

Terry Gross (24:40)

Yeah. Part of it depended on how attractive you were.

Ben Stiller (24:43)

Exactly. And how they were curating the night. Right. And this guy Mark was the main bouncer. Somehow Amy, my sister and her friend Vicky, they had gotten in with him. And, you know, it's a question, Amy and I have talked about whether or not he knew that our parents were, you know, still or mira, maybe that had something to do with it, I don't know. But he would pick them to go in. And one night Amy said to me, Amy and Vicki said, like, we're gonna dress you up and we're gonna take you to Studio 54. We're gonna get you in. This is when my parents were out of town and they put me in a yellow and green polka dotted Fiorucci shirt. Fiorucci was the store at the time that was like the cool fashion store. And an army jacket and these Mickey Mouse sunglasses. And we went up and Mark saw us and he like pointed to us and like, you know, said, come on in. And we were. And it happened a few times. So I think I was 13.

Terry Gross (25:43)

Well, one of the things Studio 54 was famous for was people doing a lot of coke. What did you see that you probably shouldn't have been exposed to?

Ben Stiller (25:53)

I mean, I don't remember seeing people like doing stuff like that in the bathrooms or like, you know, but I remember being in the upper, the balcony and seeing there were like people making out and the average white band. I remember talking to the average white band there.

Terry Gross (26:12)

For people who don't know the band, that's the name of the band.

Ben Stiller (26:14)

The Average White Band was a band.

Terry Gross (26:15)

You're not calling a band of white people average.

Ben Stiller (26:18)

Yeah, but I mean, I remember dancing too and being really into dancing there. And yeah, it was a little bit, you know, look, it was definitely, you know, the kind of like feral kids out on our own, you know.

Terry Gross (26:32)

Did your parents ever find out some of the things you did when they were gone?

Ben Stiller (26:36)

Yeah, they did. I talked about this on a talk show once too. I took LSD when my parents were out doing the Love Boat once.

Terry Gross (26:46)

I love the comparison between the Love Boat and you being on a hallucinogenic.

Ben Stiller (26:52)

Yeah. And I was the guy who called his parents on lsd. I called them up in LA because I was scared. I was having a bad trip. And the only time I ever did LSD and I talked to. And my mom was really. Got really mad at me. And my dad was actually much nicer and kind of tried to help talk me down. And he said, I understand what you're going through. When I was 11 years old, I smoked a pell mell cigarette and I was sick for two days. And I was like, no, dad, you don't understand. I'm like, I don't understand what reality is. But he was great. He was actually great about it.

Terry Gross (27:28)

In tucking you down?

Ben Stiller (27:29)

Yeah. No. And I was, like, freaked out a little for a while afterwards. I was scared from the experience. My dad was so great. I remember he took me for a drive and he parked the car and he said, let's just meditate a little bit. And he had me close my eyes and just picture a color. I think it was purple or something. He said, just think of it as a soothing color. And I don't know if he had been doing some therapy himself that he had this idea to do this, but he was just actually really trying to help me of soothe myself and get over this event, as opposed to a parent who was like, never do that again and you're grounded or whatever.

Terry Gross (28:09)

I think it's wonderful that you felt comfortable enough with your father to call him while you were tripping.

Ben Stiller (28:17)

Yeah. I mean, that's interesting because that's one of those things you don't think about. It's just this visceral gut reaction. And that's what I did. And I guess that does say something about our relationship. But he was always, for me, a very spiritual person and very. I think that's what people connected with him too, because he had just like a really open heart.

Terry Gross (28:39)

There's a scene in the movie that's a real standout scene. You're talking to your son who's kind of interviewing you during part of the film so that you can tell stories and be telling them to someone. And not only someone, to your own son. And so you're telling him about how weird it was for you when you were having a conversation with your father and a fan would come up and interrupt the conversation and your father would pay attention to the fan, right?

Ben Stiller (29:13)

Yeah, I was talking to my son about how. Yeah. Growing up with my Parents, they would get recognized and on the street. My mom usually wouldn't want to talk to people for a long time or she'd say hi, but she wanted to just go on and just keep doing her thing. And my dad would talk to people forever. Like if someone wanted to talk to him, he would get into conversations about their family and it would just go on and on. Used to drive my mother crazy. And as kids we would feel that when you're little, you feel that your parents attention being taken away from you. So I was talking about that with Quinn, my son, and he interrupts me.

Terry Gross (29:50)

And we'll play what he has to say. Okay, so here's Quinn.

Ben Stiller (29:56)

Well, that's actually hilarious because just a few weeks ago we were all out at a restaurant and I had been stressed about college stuff. And then the people there wanted to get like a picture with you. And I just remember I was so frustrated, like the world just has to stop to get this picture. You know what I mean? I think I got.

Terry Gross (30:13)

So Ben Stiller, what was it like when your son told you that?

Ben Stiller (30:19)

I was surprised, yet not surprised. I was surprised that he actually brought that up in that moment and that the example he was using was so recent. But it was in that moment I was like, okay, this is actually probably a really good moment for the movie. But I also as a person was feeling like, oh, this is really. Ugh, gosh. And all I could say in the moment was like, oh, yeah, I guess I have like a lot of my dad and me, or more of my dad and me than my mom. And it's just that realization that. And it wasn't a new realization for me. But you know, that thing of like, you really try to do better than your parents, but it's very hard to not make some of the same mistakes that they make.

Terry Gross (31:06)

Were you even aware that you were doing that?

Ben Stiller (31:08)

I wasn't aware. No, I was not. You know what surprised me about what he said was cause he's 20, that that had happened like he said like last week. And I thought, well, I thought, well, this is something that happened when he was little, you know, but the fact that he. It actually like affected him still at this age, you know, that actually really did hit me, you know, just as an awareness of like, yeah, this is a reality that he had to live with. I had to live with my own version of it with my parents. But it's a tough thing.

Terry Gross (31:40)

You are a producer, a director, an actor. You just finished a documentary about your parents. So you're dealing with working with other actors, investigating your own family history, running a production company, how do you deal with all the stress of that and the responsibility? That's a lot.

Ben Stiller (32:05)

Yeah. I mean, it's been a busy time for me. I know the places that I feel comfortable and relaxed and, you know, like the kind of safe haven. And that to me has become going home and being able to, like turn it off and figure out how to do that. Finally, I think I've figured that out, at least to a certain extent, that I can get home and really enjoy being with my family. My kids are both out of the house now, but when they're around, it's great. But with Christine just hanging out together and watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with my daughter or something like that, or kind of just finding those moments to kind of unplug, I found that that really, really helps. And then the other thing is just enjoying the work and the projects that I'm working on that I only working on things I really care about and I really want to be doing.

Terry Gross (33:08)

Well. It's just been a pleasure talking with you. So thank you so much for coming back to our show.

Ben Stiller (33:13)

Yeah. It's great to talk with you, Terry. Thank you.

Terry Gross (33:16)

Ben Stiller's documentary Stiller and Nothing Is Lost is streaming on Apple tv. He's also an executive producer and primary director of the series Severance, which is also streaming on Apple tv. Coming up, we hear from Cynthia Erivo. She stars in the new film Wicked for Good, which is now in theaters. This is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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Terry Gross (34:40)

Mosley has the next interview. Here's Tonya.

Tanya Mosley (34:43)

There's a moment in the new movie Wicked for Good when Elphaba, the so called wicked witch, defending herself to a world that has misunderstood her and simply exists on her own power. My guest today, Cynthia Erivo, brings that moment to life with a depth that is also personal. In part two of Wicket, Erivo captures Elphaba's evolution from outcast to someone who claims her own story, a journey Erivo also explores in her new memoir, Simply. More. The book traces how she learned to shed other people's definitions of her as a woman, as a black artist and as someone who was sometimes told she was too much. Erivo first broke through on Broadway in the Color Purple, winning a Tony Award for her portrayal of Celie. She went on to earn an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of Harriet Tubman and later portrayed Aretha Franklin in Genius Aretha, for which she was nominated for several awards including an Emmy. Erivo is also a recording artist, blending gospel, soul and cinematic pop. Last year's Wicked and the new film Wicked for Good are adapted from the Tony Award winning Broadway musical. The new film continues Elphaba and Glinda's story, exploring what happens after their fates diverge and the myth of the Wicked witch takes hold. And Cynthia Erivo, welcome back to FRESH air.

Cynthia Erivo (36:08)

Hello. Thank you very much.

Tanya Mosley (36:10)

You know, there is something extraordinary about watching Wicked and then Wicked for Good and reading your memoir at the same time. There's so many parallels there. When did it click for you that your personal life and that connection to Elphaba were so close?

Cynthia Erivo (36:29)

I think I had an inkling that there was a connection soon after I started doing the music, singing the music, learning the music. But I think it really actually clicked when I was making the film, when I was playing the character that I realized, oh, this is, this is a lot closer to home than I had imagined. But I didn't realize that there were so many sort of real parallels. The relationship with her father, the relationship to being in spaces that don't really include you. All of that sort of dawned on me as it was happening. So the feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate. Yeah.

Tanya Mosley (37:10)

Was there a particular moment during that time period where it hit you? You said, wait a minute, this is me.

Cynthia Erivo (37:16)

We were shooting and this is gonna sound so strange because it's such a small moment, but we were shooting the scene when Nessa Rose is about to be sent off to school and their father asks Elphaba to take care of Nessa. And I remember he speaks to her quite harshly. And the feeling that I got in that moment sort of was a click moment for me. It was. It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one. That's when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that.

Tanya Mosley (37:53)

What's so interesting about that is that the story of Wicked had been living with you for years. I mean, we're talking over a decade or so.

Cynthia Erivo (38:02)

Yes. The first time I discovered it was when I was 20 or 21. Yeah.

Tanya Mosley (38:06)

Director John Chiu actually asked you during the audition, what does Elphaba mean to you? And you told him the story of Defying Gravity, which was a song that you had learned several years before.

Cynthia Erivo (38:18)

Yes.

Tanya Mosley (38:19)

When you were in school.

Cynthia Erivo (38:20)

Yes.

Tanya Mosley (38:21)

You write about this in your memoir, Simply More. And I want you to read exactly what you said to John. Can I have you read it?

Cynthia Erivo (38:30)

This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school. If I was having a really bad day or was miserably aware of how odd I felt there. An outsider who couldn't connect with the others. I would hide out in a music room with a friend, Michael. We'd sing this together. We'd stay in that little room until the very last minute before we had to go back to class, belting our hearts out. This song gave me refuge. Singing it during a very vulnerable time in my life. These songs made me feel safe.

Tanya Mosley (39:05)

That was also the first time that you shared out loud how alienating I felt school was for you.

Cynthia Erivo (39:11)

Very much so, yeah.

Tanya Mosley (39:12)

What was it about that moment that it came to you to actually be vulnerable and tell. And also that was a show of the connection between you and Elphaba as well.

Cynthia Erivo (39:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt really safe in that room. I felt like John would understand it. And I also knew that in order to really connect with this character, to really help people understand that I knew and understood who this character was, who this person was, that I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience that I felt that this character had been through. And I felt like this character needed the vulnerability that I can sometimes be afraid of sharing or being better at now. But in that moment, I just thought, if I'm not honest about what I feel or have felt or how this music has made me feel, then I think I'm leaving something on the table that is important.

Tanya Mosley (40:14)

That experience that you had at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, that was a very difficult time for you. Maybe one of the Most difficult times in your entire career?

Cynthia Erivo (40:25)

Yeah.

Sponsor Announcer (40:26)

Yeah.

Cynthia Erivo (40:26)

I just felt like people really didn't understand me. And at the same time, whilst not understanding, didn't really make very much room for me either. It was sort of. Once a judgment was made, that judgment stayed. I think I was lucky enough to have one or two people during that time who really looked out for me, who cared for me, but it was a tough experience to be there because I really didn't. I just didn't think I fit. And lots of strange, interesting microaggressions from people who now are not at the school. But it was an interesting, tough time.

Tanya Mosley (41:06)

What were they telling you about yourself or how did you think they perceived you?

Cynthia Erivo (41:12)

I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome. I think they thought I didn't care about my work. A lot of people there was sometimes. Well, there's one person who particular who made a comment about my body. It was too muscular. I needed to stop going to the gym. And at that point I just was like, well, I like the body I'm in. And so to have someone who was teaching, who was supposed to be mentoring me, say that was just. It was horrifying.

Tanya Mosley (41:45)

You were a young girl, you had grown up in South London. You had to work your way through school. And that was part of the issue was that you, unlike other students, had other jobs. You were working as a background singer.

Cynthia Erivo (41:59)

Background singer in the bar, at the theater. I was working in a shirt and tie shop as well over the weekend. And so I was like. I was working a lot. And that happened because when I first got there, I was given the opportunity to go and do backing vocals for a band that would have come, paid for my tuition in its entirety. And when I asked if I could take the time off, which was two weeks, I was given an ultimatum. Either to stay and let the gig go or leave and take the gig. But I couldn't come back.

Tanya Mosley (42:38)

What an impossible position to be in.

Cynthia Erivo (42:40)

And I didn't want to leave, so I stayed.

Tanya Mosley (42:45)

During your time there, you were given these bit roles, but there's this moment that you write about where you were asked to sing for another singer who had laryngitis. But you weren't asked to be on stage.

Cynthia Erivo (42:57)

No, I was backstage.

Tanya Mosley (42:58)

Backstage. And then they would lip sync you and you did it.

Cynthia Erivo (43:03)

Yeah. It's one of those moments that I've started to learn to forgive myself for, because I felt so previously, I've felt so mad at myself. So I guess there's a part of Me that's a little bit ashamed that I would sort of give up my voice in that way. But it's also why I'm vehemently protective of the way I use my voice. I do not say yes to everything at all. It takes a lot for me. It has to mean something for me to sing and has to make sense. I will never give my voice to someone like that again. Because it felt like someone removing a gift that was meant for me and giving it to someone else. And it just felt, in the moment, really awful. And I remember feeling really wrong. It felt wrong.

Tanya Mosley (44:01)

I want to play a clip from the latest installment of Wicked, because we learn that the wonderful wizard of Oz is a fraud. Yes, but in this film, you're standing up to Oz, who is oppressing the animals. And I want to play this clip to illustrate this. It's you as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Glinda, and the wonderful wizard of Oz, played by Jeff Goldblum. And he's telling you why efforts are meaningless. Let's listen.

Ben Stiller (44:31)

Elphaba, I've missed you. Can't we start again?

Sponsor Announcer (44:37)

Yes.

Terry Gross (44:38)

Please just say yes.

Ben Stiller (44:40)

No.

Cynthia Erivo (44:40)

Don't you think I wish I could? I would give anything to go back to a time when I. When I actually believe that you are wonderful. A wonderful wizard of Oz. No one believes in you more than I did. But there's no going back. And we can't move forward. Not until everyone knows what I know. And once they know the truth, they're.

Ben Stiller (45:06)

Not gonna believe it.

Cynthia Erivo (45:08)

How can you say that?

Terry Gross (45:10)

I don't know.

Ben Stiller (45:10)

I'm just being straight with you. I could tell them that I've been lying to them till I'm. Forgive me, Blue in the face, but. Wouldn't make any difference. They're never gonna stop believing in me. You know why? Because they don't want to.

Tanya Mosley (45:28)

That's my guest today, Cynthia Erivo. And Scene with Jeff Goldblum and Ariana Grande and Wicked for good. You all shot this back to back. Wicked and Wicked for good.

Cynthia Erivo (45:39)

Not back to back. At the same time.

Tanya Mosley (45:40)

At the same time.

Cynthia Erivo (45:41)

Spontaneously. Yeah.

Tanya Mosley (45:42)

Did you have to hold anything back emotionally as you were moving through these two different storylines? That one kind of evolves from the other.

Cynthia Erivo (45:51)

Yeah, it was really interesting. Cause sometime I think we had shot quite a bit of the first movie, but not nearly enough to say we'd almost finished. No way. We were nowhere near. And then we were sort of all the way into the second and we were sort of tandeming between the two movies. So there were days where, luckily you would sort of know where the character was at this point, and you'd have some sort of hindsight for where they had come from and what they had been through in order to move into the second movie. But there were some times where you're sort of guessing, really, because you hadn't shot a certain scene. You're just sort of assuming that the scene is gonna feel this way.

Tanya Mosley (46:36)

How did you navigate that? Did you just surrender to the idea?

Cynthia Erivo (46:40)

Yeah, you have to. You have to. And also, I think both of us, actually, Ari and I, both of us sort of made really specific decisions about how we looked, what we walked in, the clothes we were wearing, so that even the scents that we were wearing. Cause I always find a scent for each character that I play.

Tanya Mosley (46:58)

What do you mean by scent?

Cynthia Erivo (46:59)

A perfume. I always find a scent for each person, but this time I found a scent for each Elphaba. So Elphaba, who was young, wore a very different scent to Elphaba, who was older. And so scent's memory was a lot to do with how to sort of click back into where we are in time.

Tanya Mosley (47:15)

Oh, this is so interesting.

Terry Gross (47:17)

Can you see.

Tanya Mosley (47:18)

Slow down for a moment.

Cynthia Erivo (47:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tanya Mosley (47:19)

First off, how did you come to that idea? And what sense did you choose?

Cynthia Erivo (47:23)

I started doing this a long years, years and years ago. The first time I did it, I think I did it with Harriet. And hers was like cedarwood and lavender, I think it was, but like essence with a base oil, not a perfume. Because I. I wanted it to feel like something she could feel, find, that she could, you know, discover, make. I wanted it to feel like it was off the earth. And then I realized how powerful it was for me. And so I kept doing it with my characters. So with Elphaba, I knew that they had to feel different. So Elphaba, who's younger, I sort of messed around with, like, big florals, like, really deep florals, so tuberose, rose lilies. And then I mixed it with, like, a tobacco oud. And sometimes I find a scent and it's not right. And I go back and I go. And it's a real something Will say, this is the one.

Tanya Mosley (48:33)

Oh, this is so fascinating. So for Elphaba, for good, what was her scent?

Cynthia Erivo (48:36)

Hers? You'll never believe me, but it was. It was a scent called Witchy Woo.

Tanya Mosley (48:43)

Oh.

Cynthia Erivo (48:44)

Which when I found it, I thought, there's no way this is going to work. It will be way too on the nose.

Tanya Mosley (48:51)

Where did you find it?

Cynthia Erivo (48:52)

I was staying at Soho Farmhouse in the uk. And they have this little sort of gift shop. And in the back they have a few perfumes. And I saw this scent, it said Witchy Woo. And I thought, I'm not gonna like this. I'm not gonna like it. It's too on the nose. There's no way. So I sprayed some on my hand and immediately I wasn't convinced. But you know how perfume changes your. Your body, your scent, your own natural oils. Natural oils change the scent. So I go away and I keep going back to it. My body's like, no, this is a really good scent. There was a reason it was there for. You go back for it. So I go back for this scent. So it's wearing Witchy Woo. And I'm wearing. And this time, like a grown oud.

Tanya Mosley (49:43)

And this helped you keep your mind around the different emotional notes between the two movies?

Cynthia Erivo (49:49)

Yeah.

Tanya Mosley (49:50)

Do you think that has something to do with. Because you have synesthesia. Synesthesia, which means you can see color when you sing, do you feel like this might be connected?

Cynthia Erivo (50:02)

I'm sure. I think my senses are heightened, so I know I have a heightened sense of smell. And obviously with. There's a heightened sense there. So I think maybe. But I've never thought of it that way. I've always thought of it as just another access point to each of the characters. It's just sort of the character's way of telling me another bit about who they are, you know, what calls to them, what is part of their DNA. And that is another thing that I think just I sort of discovered along the way. Cause it isn't the same ever. I've never worn the same thing for any character.

Tanya Mosley (50:41)

There's some pretty intense training that goes into this role. Both physical, emotional. I mean, when you were even training to audition, is it true that you would try to sing while you were swimming?

Cynthia Erivo (50:52)

Yes, I would sing. And so I'd do laps, then sing, and then I'd run and then I would sing. I just wanted it to be in my body, you know, it's the idea that if I'm doing something that's strenuous and I can sing it whilst I'm doing the thing that's strenuous. When I'm standing still, it'll just be there. I won't actually have to work that hard for it to be there.

Tanya Mosley (51:16)

You know, the Defying Gravity riff, It's now just become a cultural phenomenon. There's that moment where Keke Palmer is at the NAACP Awards and she just starts singing it. You know what's it like to have your voice become a reference? You know, it's part of the cultural language now.

Cynthia Erivo (51:33)

I'm one deeply flattered. And it's kind of wonderful because many women have had their riff and they've done it before. And of course you have the original by Idina Menzel, but it's just lovely to be part of the lexicon of that now. It's lovely.

Tanya Mosley (51:52)

What colors do you see when you sing Defying Gravity?

Cynthia Erivo (51:57)

Blues. Strangely different. Blue. Like, like iridescent blues.

Tanya Mosley (52:03)

Yeah. Cynthia Erivo, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Cynthia Erivo (52:07)

You too. This was wonderful.

Terry Gross (52:10)

Cynthia Erivo stars in the new film Wicked for Good, which is now in theaters. Her memoir is called Simply More. She spoke with our co host Tanya Mosley. FRESH AIR Weekend is produced by Theresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. I'm Terry Gross.

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