Terry Gross (3:14)

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. The film Hamnet is nominated for eight Oscars, including best Actress for my guest Jessie Buckley. Hamnet's other nominations include best Picture, best director for Chloe Zhao, who's also nominated for best adapted screenplay, along with Maggie o', Farrell, the author of the novel Hamnet, which the film is based on. Buckley plays William Shakespeare's wife, Agnes Hathaway. Little is known about Shakespeare's real wife. The film is largely an imagined version of her. What's true is that the couple's son, Hamnet, died at age 11 from the plague. In the film, he catches it from his twin sister. Shakespeare has already left the couple's home in the country to go to London and work on writing and staging his plays and has promised to bring the rest of the family as soon as he's settled and has a little more money. When Hamnet gets sick and it's clear his life is in jeopardy, Agnes calls for her husband to come home, but he doesn't make it in time. Shakespeare and Hamnet don't get to say goodbye, and Agnes is left to experience the horror of her son's death without her husband. In this scene, when Shakespeare does return, she's angry that he came too late, but she also feels guilty that she didn't pay enough attention to Hamnet while she was caring for their daughter who survived the plague. Shakespeare is played by Paul Mescal.

Jessie Buckley (4:42)

I should have paid her more attention. I always thought she was the one to be taken away, when all the while it was him. Oh, fool.

Morgan Neville (4:51)

There's nothing anyone could have done to save him. You did everything that you could.

Jessie Buckley (4:56)

Of course I did. You weren't here. I would have cut my heart out and given it to him. I would have laid my life down on the ground for him and no one would take it.

Morgan Neville (5:07)

I know.

Jessie Buckley (5:07)

You don't know. You don't know. You weren't here. He died in agony. He was in agony, Agnes. And he cried. He cried and he cried, and his little body wrapped in pain. Don't shush me. He was so scared. And you weren't here.

Terry Gross (5:33)

The film has become known for leaving a lot of people in tears. Buckley won a Golden Globe for her performance in Hamnet. Other films for which she received various awards or nominations include the Lost Daughter, Women Talking Beast, Wild Rose and Men on tv. She was a star of season four of Fargo and a star of the HBO series Chernobyl. Her new film, the Bride, as in the Bride of Frankenstein, opened in theaters Friday. Jessie Buckley, welcome to FRESH air. And congratulations on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win.

Jessie Buckley (6:07)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Terry Gross (6:10)

My pleasure. What were you able to learn about Shakespeare's real wife, and how does that compare with how she's depicted in the movie, how you depict her in the movie?

Jessie Buckley (6:21)

Well, I think before I'd read this book, you know, what had been written about Shakespeare's wife was it wasn't great.

Terry Gross (6:33)

You mean it wasn't positive or there wasn't a lot?

Jessie Buckley (6:35)

No, it wasn't positive. I think she was kind of given the title of being a woman that had kept him back from his genius. And I think what Maggie o' Farrell so brilliantly did, not just with Agnes and Shakespeare's wife, but also with Hamlet, their son, was to bring these people who in our imaginary world filled Shakespeare and his the plays that have lived forever and given them status beside this great man which is full and vibrant

Terry Gross (7:16)

in this imaginary version of her life. People think she must be part witch because she was born in the woods and so was her mother. And she knew so much about herbs and herbal medicine and got along with animals. She was a falconer. So we don't know how true that is, right?

Jessie Buckley (7:43)

No, but I think it's interesting, you know, I think what is so frightening about her, like, that was the question I was asked, like, what is it about this woman that is other that people feel a need to call her a forest witch or a daughter of a forest witch or, you know, somebody that was is too much against this society at the time. And my experience of playing this incredible woman was her uncompromising embodiment and connection to nature and her own elemental nature. And I guess at that time it was kind of the beginning of puritanism and capitalism and paganism was kind of becoming something scary. And people were beginning to decipher themselves off like machines, you know, how you could work a land and create produce was something that at that time in history was becoming conscious in the culture. And yet this woman was just deeply connected to nature.

Terry Gross (8:53)

One of the producers, Pippa Harris, is quoted in the production notes talking about how you embody the character Of Agnes, she says about you she's quite a wild child in the sense that she's very much at one with nature. She's slightly mystical. She believes in the soul and the spirits, and she's a really caring person. When you hear that, does that sound like you?

Jessie Buckley (9:19)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I grew up around a lot of nature. I grew up in Southern Ireland in a town called Killarney, which has lots of mountains and lakes. And there was a lot of freedom and expression by just living in that place when we were younger. And I think when you grow up in a landscape like that, your mind and your soul is wild. You know, things just grow because they want to grow. There's no planting or formula to the nature in that place. And I think that was really informative to me as a child and still is.

Terry Gross (9:59)

Getting back to that quote, do you believe in spirits and consider yourself a little mystical? Because I'd love to hear more about that if you can, to share it.

Jessie Buckley (10:11)

Spirits. I do. I believe in energy. I believe that, like, you have a conversation with somebody's energy and spirit. Absolutely. And I think even people who've passed, that there is a spirit in the very memory of them that lives on. And I guess in the mystical sense is like. I guess what that's making me think of is like, it's about curiosity, isn't it? Of curiosity of an unknown and a seeking. I don't. Yeah. And I guess I like to live in that place is to be curious about something unknown.

Terry Gross (10:56)

One of the best known scenes in the movie is when your son has just died and you're just, like, howling with grief and despair. And I'm wondering, is that something that you rehearsed a lot or prepared for? Or did you try to be spontaneous about it? Because, like, that's a scene that really brings out everyone's tears.

Jessie Buckley (11:20)

Um. No, I didn't know that that was going to happen or come out. It. It wasn't in the script. I think, really. Chloe asked all of us to dare to be as present as possible. And of course, leading up to it, you know, you're aware that this scene is coming, but that scene doesn't stand on its own. By the time I'd met that scene, I had developed such a deep bond with Jacoby Jupe, who plays Hamnet and Paul and Emily Watson and all the children. We really were a family. And Jacoby Jupe, who plays Hamlet, is such an incredible little actor and an incredible soul, and we really were a team. And I think we both recognize where we might go, but where that might end, we didn't know. And look, the death of a child is unfathomable. I don't know where it begins and ends. Out of utter respect, I tried to touch an imaginary truth of it in our story as best I could. But there's no way to define that kind of grief. I'm sure it's different for so many people. And in that moment, all I had was my imagination, but also this relationship that was right in front of me with this little boy. And that's what came out of that moment.

Terry Gross (13:07)

You hadn't yet become a mother, but you did get pregnant. I think like a week before Hamnet opened. Do I have that right?

Jessie Buckley (13:17)

A week after I wrapped filming.

Terry Gross (13:19)

Oh, okay.

Jessie Buckley (13:22)

Something was cooked.

Terry Gross (13:24)

Were you trying or was that really a surprise? That seemed so. Like the timing of it just seems amazing.

Jessie Buckley (13:34)

I wanted to become a mother for a long time and schedules, life being in different places, work, you know, it was hard. And that was kind of like a beautiful thing, but also an intense thing. To kind of feel that in my own personal life, beside this mother that I was living inside in Agnes. The thing I've realized becoming a mother is it humbles you down to your knees. And any idea you think of yourself in, in being a mother or becoming a mother, or in birth or any of it, I mean, good luck, because it's never like that. It always brings you on a way more kind of wild journey.

Terry Gross (14:35)

I'm wondering if portraying the mother of Hamnet, you know, and the wife of William Shakespeare spooked you because you had just experienced the grief that a mother has when her 11 year old son dies. And now you are about to become a mother. So were you spooked by the thought a son can die, a child can die?

Jessie Buckley (15:00)

I wasn't spooked. Not because I didn't think about it, but I don't know, what are you going to do, you know, like, lock yourself up and not kind of, you know, my work, I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them. They like, help me. I think my experience when I don't touch them is that they show up in a more destructive kind of bigger way. So actually, the thing that this story offered me, that brought me into this next chapter of my life as a mother was tenderness. You know, and that was a word and a feeling that I think I didn't know was what I was looking for. And a mother's tenderness, it's. It's ferocious, you know, to birth is no joke. To be born is no joke. And the minute something's born into the world, you're always in the precipice of life and death. That's our path. You know, we have we all know we're going to head towards that destination, I guess. And I, I wanted to be a mother so much that that overrode the thought of being afraid of it.

Terry Gross (16:27)

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jessie Buckley. She's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in Hamnet. We'll hear more of our interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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Terry Gross (18:23)

The director Chloe Zhao sent the cast to a coach who uses dream analysis as a tool for insights into who you are and who your character is. Did you find that helpful?

Jessie Buckley (18:37)

Yeah. I actually introduced Chloe to this woman that we worked with and I've used it as a way to create for a few years now. I find it so helpful. I'm not very good at linear thoughts or projections, and I found school very difficult because it was too linear and formulaic, and I couldn't learn like that. And, you know, with characters and work, it's the same. I don't want to project an idea onto the women that I play until I've lived beside them and then in them. And I find dreams really curious things. And I. You know, when you open a book or you open the script, and the world of that script begins to kind of reflect itself around you, your unconscious does stir the waters towards that world. And I find it a very interesting and useful tool to abstractly enter into an essence of a being rather than projecting an idea on top of them. And I create so much from this way of working. I write, I collect pictures. I'm like a magpie, you know, music. I. It spills out of me when I start working like that. So I find it so useful. And it's also just to say it's not a new thing. Like, the surrealists were using it, Dali was using it. I'm pretty sure David lynch used his dreams in his films as Fellini. There's this extraordinary Fellini book of all of his dreams, and he's created. It's this most beautiful. Where all the characters that he found in his dreams are all painted in this book, and you can see them in, like, Eight and a Half and La Strada. So it's not a new tool, it's just something to get curious about.

Terry Gross (20:32)

In addition to starring in Hamnet, you star in a new film called the Bride, which is Maggie Gyllenhaal's take on the Bride of Frankenstein. Like, what if the Bride of Frankenstein was a feminist who spoke out about misogyny and corruption, but she's also totally wild and out of control, really nasty. So it must have been such a kind of shock from going to making the Bride to making Hamnet, because I think even though the Bride's opening later. Later than Hamnet did, I think you made the Bride first.

Jessie Buckley (21:14)

I made the Bride first, yeah.

Terry Gross (21:17)

Oh, and also, you know, in Bride of Frankenstein, you're reanimated. Like you've died and you're brought back to life. Like Frankenstein.

Jessie Buckley (21:23)

Yeah.

Terry Gross (21:24)

Whereas, you know, in Hamnet, that's all about a dead son staying dead, living in sight. Well, kind of living in sin, kind of, yes.

Jessie Buckley (21:34)

Like Shakespeare reincarnates his son through the vessel of a story, which is what happens at that end, you know, is when she reaches out, she can touch the thing that she thought she'd lost because her husband has created the greatest magic trick of her life. When her son dies, it's so ginormous that she can't find him until that moment when the vessel of a story can help you. Yeah, Touch the things that you can't hold by yourself.

Terry Gross (22:11)

When you were making the Bride, inspired by the Bride of Frankenstein, written and directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal, you were pregnant and had to hide your pregnancy on screen. So how did you do it?

Jessie Buckley (22:26)

Well, I wasn't pregnant for the main shooting sequence, but when we came back to do a reshoot for something, I was eight months pregnant. So they just had to do it from the boobs up.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (22:37)

Terry.

Jessie Buckley (22:39)

It's like just the face. The face was my only tool to work from. But, I mean, I really loved working when I was pregnant. I thought it was pretty wild experience, especially because I was playing Mary Shelley and I was talking about Monstrosity. And here I was with two heartbeats inside me and I. You know, becoming a mom and being pregnant did something, I think, for me, my experience of it, it's so real that it really, like, focuses you to be. I'm allergic to fake or to disconnection. Like, I think since my daughter has come and I know what that connection is, and the real feeling of being in a relationship with somebody, kind of soft chat is I can't stomach it anymore, or talking around a thing. And as an actress, it's very exciting to, like, recognize that in yourself and really take ownership of yourself, you know, I remember in filming that I was really close to giving birth, you know, and being like, I have this amount of energy. I will give you everything I got, but I know there'll be a time when I cannot give you anymore, and that's gonna be the end of the day. And actually, that really focuses you on set, you know, And I think maybe when you're younger, you're so in awe and reverence that you've been invited into this world, which is part of where you are at that moment. But it's also good to put in some boundaries and focus your work. And I think I'm excited to go back and work on this other side of becoming a mother in so many ways, because I've shed 10 layers of skin by loving more and experiencing life in such a new way with my daughter. I'm also scared to work again because, you know, it's hard to be a mother. And to work, that's like a constant tug because I love what I do. And I'm passionate and I want to continue to grow and learn and fill those spaces that are yet to be

Terry Gross (25:13)

filled

Jessie Buckley (25:17)

and also be a mother. And I think every mother can recognize that talk.

Terry Gross (25:24)

Do you think if you took a break, a long one, do you have a fear that you'd be forgotten when you were ready to come back?

Jessie Buckley (25:34)

No, I don't feel afraid of that.

Terry Gross (25:38)

You're just torn between what you should do, you know, like just become a full time mother for a while or keep acting.

Jessie Buckley (25:47)

I don't think I have to choose. You know, I really don't. I think I'm glad to hear that.

Terry Gross (25:54)

It just sounded to me like you thought you needed to.

Jessie Buckley (25:56)

No, I just think it's an honest feeling. You know, I woke up this morning, I haven't seen my daughter in four days. And it hurts. You know, I miss her. But I also am inspired to be around people that make me dream and imagine. And I need to do what I do. And I think I will be a better mother to continue to be passionate about something in my life and show my daughter that you don't have to lose any part of yourselves. Of course there's. Of course it's hard, but it's also a beautiful thing to miss something like I've missed. I haven't filmed for nearly a year and I cannot wait. Like, I'm hungry to create again. And my daughter will come with me. You know, she's seven months, so at the moment she can travel with us. And it's a beautiful life. And she meets all these amazing people. And I have a feeling that she loves life and that's a great thing to see in a child. And I hope that's something that I've imparted to her in her. The short time that she's been on this earth is that, you know, life is. Life is beautiful and great and complex and alive. And there's no part of you that needs to be less in your life. You might have to work it out, but it's like it's worth it.

Terry Gross (27:30)

Well, that's a nice note to end on. So congratulations again on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win for Hamnet. And thank you so much for coming on our show.

Jessie Buckley (27:41)

Thanks for having me. It's a privilege.

Terry Gross (27:44)

Jessie Buckley is nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in Hamnet. It's playing in select theaters and is available for streaming. She also stars in the film the Bride, which opened in theaters Friday. The new Japanese film Koku Ho set box office records in its home Country. It tells the story of a gangster's son who dreams of being a star in Japan's famously rigorous Kabuki theater. Koku Ho is nominated for an Oscar for hair and makeup. Our critic at large, John Power, says the film carried him away into a fascinating subculture whose demands are at once familiar and unfamiliar.

John Powers (28:43)

Like millions of people around the world, I was hooked by the figure skating competition at the Olympics. It enthralled me with its extraordinary display of prowess and grace, but also with its fragility, its constant sense of precariousness. Years of hard work could go poof at any second. As I watched, I kept thinking of the gorgeous new movie Kokuho. I'll explain why later, but first let me say that Kokuho is set in and around the world of Kabuki, the 400-year-old theatrical form that lies near the heart of Japanese culture. Spanning half a century and running nearly three hours, this quiet epic is the top grossing Japanese live action film of all time. You can see why. It's bursting with emotion and beauty. Its costumes, hair and makeup are dazzling. Lee Sang Il's film tells a compelling story about friendship, the weight of history, the quest for perfection, and the torturous road to becoming a living national treasure, which is what the word Kokuho means. When we first meet the hero, Kikuo. He's 14 and playing a female role in an excerpt from a famous Kabuki play. Men play all the roles in Kabuki. His performance is seen by a Kabuki star, Hanai. That's Ken Watanabe, who's impressed by his talent. When Kikuo's Yakuza father is murdered by a rival gang, Hanai takes him in as a protege, teaching him to become an Onagata, a male actor who plays female roles. There is one snag. Hanai already has a son of the same age, Shunsuke, who's slated to be his artistic heir. And in the Kabuki world, artistic status passes from generation to generation. Naturally, we expect Kikuo and Shunsuke to become rivals. And in a way, they do. Yet as they share the sometimes cruel ordeal of their training, they become friends and acting partners. Each sees how the other is trapped. Despite his fanatical dedication, Kikuo is considered a low born outsider, complete with a Yakuza tattoo on his back that the hidebound Kabuki culture doesn't want to accept. In contrast, Shunsuke is expected to become a luminary like his dad, even though at some gut level, he doesn't even like kabuki. Born into a role he doesn't want, he'd rather party than practice. We follow their entwined fates over the decades, a sometimes melodramatic dance of triumph and humiliation, complete with sexual rivalries and ignored children, played with riveting dry ice intensity by Yoshizawa Ryo. Kikuo becomes positively Faustian in his desire for greatness, while the less gifted but far more likable Shinsuke that's the very enjoyable Yokohama Ryze labors to escape his destiny. With their friendship providing the dramatic pull, Kukuo tackles grand themes. It paints a portrait of a late 20th century Japan still suffocating beneath musty ideas about birth and cultural inheritance. And in Kikuo's struggle to become Japan's greatest kabuki actor, we feel the chilly isolation of devoting yourself to an art form so demanding that it leaves little room for ordinary human connection. We also have the pleasure of learning about a ravishing art alien to most of us. Normally, when we hear the phrase kabuki theater in America, often in the political realm, it's used derisively to suggest something ritualized, empty, proforma. But watching Kukuho, you see how shallow this notion is. The kabuki scenes we're shown are thrillingly performed by Yoshizawa and Yokohama, who each spent a year and a half training to do the film. They make us feel the primal power in kabuki's blend of dance, music and acting as it tells tales of love suicides or women who reveal themselves to be serpents. Just as Olympic skaters must perform certain compulsory leaps and loops and are judged on how well they do them. So kabuki actors have certain gestures they must perform in a role, and they are expected to do them perfectly. Yet one can be technically flawless and still be middling. For a skater, the true measure of greatness is the expressive artistry of the free skate. For a kabuki actor like Kikuo, what makes you a national treasure isn't merely doing every dance and gesture to perfection, but imbuing them with a huge, almost mythic emotion. Kukuo captures how wondrous that can be and the pain required to get there.

Terry Gross (33:33)

John Powers reviewed the new film Kokuhou. Coming up, Morgan Neville tells us about making his latest documentary, man on the Run, focusing on Paul McCartney's life and music after the breakup of the Beatles. This is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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Terry Gross (34:56)

Pickup fee may apply A new documentary about Paul McCartney's life after the Beatles broke up and the formation of his band Wings is now available on Prime Video. Our next guest is the film's director, Morgan Neville. He's made documentaries about Fred Rogers, Anthony Bourdain and Orson Welles, as well as many prominent musicians, and has won an Oscar, Emmy and Grammy. He spoke with Fresh Airs Anne Marie Baldonaro.

Anne Marie Boldonado (35:24)

Chances are, Morgan Neville has made a documentary about music that you love. He won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature and the Grammy for Best music film for 20ft from stardom, his portrait of the backup singers whose voices helped define rock and pop music while remaining largely invisible. His latest film is about one of the most visible musicians, Paul McCartney.

Morgan Neville (35:51)

If I hear someone damning Paul McCartney, I tend to agree with them. So when everyone was saying I broke up the Beatles and I was just overbearing and all of that, I kind of bought into it. I thought, that's, you know, the kind of bastard I am. It leaves you in this kind of no man's land. But the truth John had come in one day and said he was leaving the Beatles. He said, it's kind of exciting. It's like telling someone you want a divorce.

Anne Marie Boldonado (36:34)

The film man on the Run covers a time in McCartney's life that isn't often the focus his life around the breakup of the Beatles. He was newly married to Linda McCartney, and he was trying to figure out who he was as a musician and as a person. Without his partnership with John Lennon, without the band that defined him since he was a teenager, Morgan Neville got access to previously unseen archival footage. We see McCartney in home movies with his young in the Remote farmhouse in Scotland where they retreated. We see him working on his early post Beatles songs and on the road and on stage with his new band, Wings. You may think you already know a lot about the Beatles, but chances are you'll still learn from man on the Run, which features new interviews with McCartney, his daughters, John's son, Sean Ono, Lennon and other heavyweights like Mick Jagger. Morgan Neville's other music documentary subjects include Pharrell, Yo Yo Ma, Hank Williams, Bono, Keith R, and Johnny Cash. Morgan Neville, welcome to FRESH air.

Terry Gross (37:40)

Hi.

Morgan Neville (37:40)

Great talking to you.

Anne Marie Boldonado (37:42)

Can you tell us about some of the archival materials that you had access to? I mean, it's crazy how much rare footage there was, a lot of it never seen before. Some home movies capture very intimate moments.

Morgan Neville (37:54)

Yeah. I mean, the good thing is that Paul married a photographer. You know, Linda McCartney, she not only took photos of everything, but they had home movie cameras and they documented a lot of their life. Even though they were living this rural farmer's life in Scotland, they sure took a lot of photos and footage of it. And the texture of that life was just amazing to kind of see what they created and live in that world. And it's part of the decision I made to not have on camera interviews, to do it all with audio, was that the archive was so amazing that I just felt like I could be immersive in it.

Anne Marie Boldonado (38:34)

Near the beginning of the film, you put text on the screen that reads, Fall 1969, John quits the Beatles. But nobody knows. Paul disappears. He is 27 years old. And that struck me as something, you know, we have to remind ourselves the Beatles are the biggest band on the planet. And Paul is 27 years old. They've recorded all the music that is ever gonna be Beatles music by that point. They're such young men.

Morgan Neville (39:03)

It's incredible to realize how much they had done by that time. And Paul has only known being a Beatle, I mean, since he was 15. That was his life. So when you go through that, it's hard to even imagine what it would have been like going through being a Beatle. Nobody had ever done it before since maybe Elvis. But the Beatles and what they did and how they shaped culture, you know, it was just unimaginable, you know, before or since. And here he is at 27, and he's the one that wanted to keep the band together. You know, John Lennon says it in the documentary, but Paul's the one that's really kind of pushing to get them to keep making music. And just in 1969, they record Let It Be. But that's January of 69. He gets married. They record Abbey Road, you know, in the spring and early summer. It comes out in August. He has a baby, Mary, in August. The Beatles break up in September and he moves to Scotland by October 1st. So when you're functioning like that and then suddenly you just hit a wall and it's over, there's just a sense of grief. And I think that is absolutely what Paul was dealing with. And that's the moment I wanted to begin the film, which is Paul is just suddenly at a loss to know anything about himself. Who am I if I'm not a Beatle? And now he's a father and a husband. And he says in the first interview he gives when they ask, what are you going to do? That you're not a beetle. And he said, my only plan is to grow up. And I thought, well, that's a great place to begin a film.

Anne Marie Boldonado (40:51)

Well, Paul ends up being the band member that announces that the band has broken up, even though John was the first person to sort of announce it to the group internally, and he has to do it publicly because he wants to move on, because he wants to make music. And he ends up being the person, like on paper that causes the breakup.

Morgan Neville (41:13)

Oh, yeah. You know, that was kind of the idea that the public had, that Paul was the one who sued the other Beatles and he quit the Beatles, as the headlines say, because he announced it first, even though John had left the Beatles. But just the PR side of it was a nightmare. And I think Paul hated having to go through that. I mean, this was an incredibly painful period of time, and which is why I don't think he's talked about it much.

Anne Marie Boldonado (41:45)

As the band was breaking up, Paul and Linda moved to a small farmhouse in Scotland. Let's hear a little bit from the film, which features archival footage of Paul and Linda singing and descriptions of the farm.

Morgan Neville (42:02)

It was just as if we'd been plonked into this new life and we just had to figure it out.

Terry Gross (42:14)

And I said, well, let's just go,

Jessie Buckley (42:15)

get lost, Just get away and go back to the beginning.

Morgan Neville (42:21)

We'd had a baby. Mary. Linda had a five year old, so I adopted her and I started making music again. She can't be found but love doesn't care.

Anne Marie Boldonado (42:37)

That's a scene from the film man on the Run.

Terry Gross (42:41)

Yeah.

Anne Marie Boldonado (42:42)

So it was at this point where he started writing music again. And what did Paul. From your interviews, what did you learn from Paul about that process? Like him starting to write on his own.

Morgan Neville (42:54)

I mean, he had been writing Beatles songs somewhat on his own, but he was writing them for the Beatles. So now he wasn't. Now he was writing them for who? For Paul McCartney. Well, who's Paul McCartney as an artist? And, you know, he has an acoustic guitar and an upright piano. And so he's starting to figure this out. And really in the beginning he's just kind of experimenting and he would make these little charts of how to record songs. And sometimes he'd just be improvising and just singing about what his life was, which was his new family, his wife, the farm. And he starts writing all these songs, which, as Paul says in the film, it's the best form of therapy there is. Because song is where you get to understand how you feel. The songs tell you and help you process how you're feeling. He ends up putting together this whole batch of songs very casually until at the very end, he has the idea for one more song, which is the song maybe I'm Amazed, which he goes into Abbey Road and does a proper job on. I guess, though he plays all the instruments himself, still at Abbey Road. But I think he knew that song needed special treatment.

Anne Marie Boldonado (44:15)

Let's hear a little bit of that song. Here's Maybe I'm amazed Baby, I'm amazed

Morgan Neville (44:22)

the way you love me all the time. Maybe I'm afraid of the way I love you. Maybe I'm amazed the way you pulled me out of time. You hung me on a line. Maybe I'm amazed at the way I really need you. Maybe I'm a man. Maybe I'm a lonely man who's in the middle of something that he doesn't really understand. Maybe I'm a man. Maybe you're the only woman who could ever help me. Maybe won't you help me understand?

Anne Marie Boldonado (45:21)

Maybe I'm amazed. From Paul McCartney's solo album released in 1970. What did Paul McCartney tell you about writing this song in particular? I think that there's something in that. In the film.

Morgan Neville (45:33)

Yeah, I mean, the song is really a thank you to Linda, you know. Cause Linda's always been a very two dimensional character in the world because she didn't give many interviews at all. And she was vilified, you know, as Yoko was vilified. And it's interesting that John and Paul both married these very strong women who are artists in their own right. Linda was a photographer who are a little older than them, who are divorced and already have children. And they start making families and music with them. So they become partners because they needed some kind of ballast for themselves. And Linda becomes kind of the center of his life, you know, both as his wife, as a musical collaborator, which is really her role as kind of his first audience.

Anne Marie Boldonado (46:30)

I think the public always felt so invested in Paul McCartney and John Lennon's relationship. And people often have the opinion that during the 70s, John and Paul were at odds. But your film complicates that and reminds people that they were in touch throughout this time.

Morgan Neville (46:49)

Yeah, I mean, they were both at odds, but also connected, I think, obviously, at the beginning of the 70s, they're all just trying to separate, so there's a distance. They all want to feel the distance. And of course, then with the business troubles, they are just increasingly tense with each other, you know, certainly in the press, always trying to kind of pit them against each other. And, you know, Paul writes a song called Too Many People on Ram, which has some kind of veiled references to, you know, people preaching practices and, you know, kind of talking maybe about John's kind of lecturing and his kind of political activism in a way that's maybe too much. And John comes back with a song called how do youo Sleep, which is not Veiled, which is a very harsh, almost kind of character assassination song. And, you know, saying, the only thing you did was yesterday, and it's. It's tough. But then you see even at that moment, that there's still just almost fighting like brothers. You know, I used several clips in the film where even when they're fighting, John refers to Paul as his best friend or as his brother. You know, that they had this connection that allowed them to do that, and they would still, you know, particularly as the business stuff started to settle down, they would get together more and more. You know, Paul always had this deep connection to John, which I saw. You know, I didn't know how Paul would be talking about John, and he loved talking about John. In fact, when I went to Paul's house for one of the interviews, I was let in into his house, and they said, he'll be back in a while. And so I'm just kind of looking around Paul's living room.

Anne Marie Boldonado (48:54)

You're standing in Paul McCartney's living room?

Morgan Neville (48:55)

Yeah, by myself. And I look on the wall and there's a drawing by John. And Paul comes in, and I said, I just noticed you've got this John drawing. He said, oh, let me show you something. And we go in the hallway and there are many drawings by John. And he said, I was sitting across from John when he drew some of these. And I just felt like this would be a good home for them here. And he just was staring at them with such love that I got the chills that John was his best friend and will always be his best friend. And so to talk about John is to keep him alive and keep him in his heart. And, you know, I think the complication of it is something that all of us try and unpack, but it's something that underneath everything has to be love, you know?

Anne Marie Boldonado (49:55)

There was often criticism of Paul's solo albums and his work with Wings, but there's also a sweet moment when Sean Lennon talks about how war their copy in their House of McCartney's first solo album was. So, you know, even though you also feature in the documentary footage of John publicly maybe criticizing or saying that the music could be better, Sean, in an interview with you, reveals that actually the album got a lot of play in their house.

Morgan Neville (50:27)

Yeah. Which I love that detail, you know, and I'm sure of it. And vice versa for Paul with John's music. I think they were always paying attention to what they were doing. Otherwise, you see people asking John about Wings albums, and John becomes more generous with time and understanding. He knows Paul's a musical genius, that he has the capability of writing great music.

Anne Marie Boldonado (50:56)

Yeah. I mean, one thing that's for sure throughout the documentary is, like, how prolific he is. It's crazy. It's almost like he just needs to. It's, like, constantly coming out of him.

Morgan Neville (51:08)

Yeah. I mean, he puts out 10 records in 10 years, but on top of that, he's doing all kinds of side projects. I mean, he is somebody who needs to be doing something. I asked him about it, you know, I said, are you a workaholic? And what he said to me is, well, you don't work music. You play it. So I think I'm a playaholic, and I think that's true. I mean, to this day, Paul McCartney's probably making music today, you know, and every day. I mean, that's what he still does because that's how he expresses himself. And I get that. You know, if I was Paul McCartney, I'd make music every day, too.

Anne Marie Boldonado (51:51)

Morgan Neville, thank you so much for talking with us.

Morgan Neville (51:54)

Absolutely. Great talking to you.

Terry Gross (51:57)

Morgan Neville spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Boldonado. His latest documentary, man on the Run, is available on Prime Video. His next film, Lorne, about Lorne Michaels, comes out next month. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger, our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our co host is Tonya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

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