Best Of : Jane Fonda / Spike Lee

Summary

Fresh Air (NPR): "Best Of: Jane Fonda / Spike Lee"

Date: September 6, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross, Tonya Mosley

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Overview

This "Best Of" Fresh Air episode brings together two icons—Jane Fonda and Spike Lee—for intimate conversations about their legendary careers, personal transformations, and moral commitments. Jane Fonda, now 87, reflects on her journey from Hollywood royalty to outspoken activist, exploring the interconnection between her public platform and private healing. Spike Lee discusses his new film Highest to Lowest, a hip hop-infused reinterpretation of Kurosawa’s High and Low, while delving into his creative process, cinematic inspirations, and the ongoing struggle for racial and social justice.

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Jane Fonda: A Life of Resistance and Reinvention

[03:10] Empathy and Activism in Dark Times

• Empathy as Strength: Fonda’s SAG AFTRA Lifetime Achievement speech lamented increasing polarization and called for empathy:

  “Empathy is not weak or woke.” ([03:10])

• She urges Americans to build solidarity across political divides, especially as “a whole lot of people are going to be really hurt by what is happening, what is coming our way.” ([04:53])

Who She’s Thinking Of

• Fonda describes “flyover country” Americans who’ve lost steady union jobs:

  “When the rug has been pulled out from under you… you’re going to be very angry.” ([05:40])

• She refuses to demonize Trump voters, insisting on a “big tent” approach:

  “We have to not judge, but we have to put forward a vision of what we think America should be.” ([07:07])

[07:07] The Urgency of Activism

• Fonda rejects retirement or retreat:

  “I can’t even imagine right now being on an island someplace… This is not the time to go inward. We have to go out. We have to speak, we have to shout.” ([07:17])

• She warns:

  “We’re very, very close to becoming fascist in this country. I never, ever imagined that… but it’s beginning to happen.” ([07:39])

[08:19] Arrests and Responsibility

• Discusses being arrested five times for climate protests, yet notes her privilege:

  “They don’t treat me the way they would if I did exactly the same thing and I was Black.” ([08:23])

• Her current focus is building power “down ballot” for local democracy and climate resilience:

  “This is where the real climate and democracy work is being done right now.” ([08:51])

[09:35] Reckoning with Her Generation

• Fonda admits her generation’s complicity:

  “It’s called neoliberalism… particularly starting in the 80s moved to corporate liberalism… moving to the middle, which is not what we need.” ([09:35])

[10:14] The Fitness Empire’s Surprising Roots

• Fonda started her workout business to fund activism:

  “It turned out it was the workout. So the money went to the Campaign for Economic Democracy.” ([10:14])

[12:35] Family, Forgiveness, and Healing

• On Her Father: Henry Fonda objectified her, but as she aged:

  “He wasn’t perfect, but he was a good man. He did his best. That’s the way men of that generation thought about women.” ([12:48])

• Her Mother’s Death: Discusses her mother’s suicide and how her grief shaped her.

  “She was bipolar… she was sexually abused at age 7.” ([14:07], [14:47])

Profound Realization

• Obtaining and reading her mother’s institution records was transformative:

  “I started shaking… And all I wanted to do was take my mother in my arms and hold her and tell her how sorry I was.” ([16:40])

[17:22] Reinvention After Retreat

• Fonda’s “lost years” from acting were spent married to Ted Turner:

  “You can’t be married to Ted Turner and have another job. That’s the job and it’s a full time job.” ([17:22])

• Her comeback came with the film Monster-in-Law ([18:12]), later leading to the hit Netflix series Grace and Frankie ([18:34]).

[20:53] Performing Aging: Grace and Frankie

• Fonda describes the joy (and initial creative anxiety) of playing Grace:

  “I had a nervous breakdown the first season… What it triggered… was abandonment. And so the whole season was about dealing with abandonment.” ([21:26])

• Ultimately, therapy helped her fall in love with the character and process real wounds.

[23:10] The Life Force: Resilience

• Fonda attributes endurance to resilience:

  “That was me. … You find love where you can, you find support where you can. That’s a resilient child.” ([23:10])

[24:08] Refusing Stasis

• She rejects the fatalism of aging:

  “I’m grateful that I have a very vibrant old life.” ([24:08])

Memorable Quote:

“We are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you. Mic drop. Let’s go home.” —Jane Fonda as Grace ([20:22])

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Spike Lee: Morality, Music, and the Power of Cinema

[25:29] Highest to Lowest: A Modern Kurosawa

• Denzel Washington stars as music mogul David King, whose friend’s son is kidnapped—a play on Kurosawa’s High and Low.

• The film explores the central moral quandary:

  “What would you do to save your own child? What would you do to save the child of someone you love?” ([27:02])

  Film Clip ([26:15–27:02]): Powerful negotiation between King (Washington) and the abductor (A$AP Rocky).

[27:35] Interpretation, Not Remake

• Lee clarifies:

  “I say reinterpretation because I’m running away from the word remake… It really deals with morality.” ([27:35])

• On working with Denzel:

  “When they’re going through trials and tribulations, the audience becomes engaged, and they’re with that person every step of the way.” ([28:36])

[29:08] Music as Cinematic Character

• The music mogul setup was in the script before it reached Lee. He immediately said yes, sight unseen, because of his trust in Denzel ([29:13]).

The Dynamics of Sound

• Lee opens the movie with “Oh, What a Beautiful Morning,” contrasting with hip hop throughout:

  “I love all types of music. … Every time I was like, I don’t want to go. And then we’ll come out of there, I said, ‘Mommy, that was good.’” ([30:16])

• Anecdote: Lee recalls his mother dragging him to the movies despite protests, shaping his love for cinema ([30:16–31:22]).

  Laughter Moment:

  “Mommy, why is that lady, why is her name Pussy Galore?” ([31:25]) “My mother grabbed me by the neck and said, ‘Don’t you say another thing.’” ([32:27])

[34:25] Sustaining Passion

• Lee insists he’s never lost his love for filmmaking:

  “I truly believe I was put here to be a storyteller… If you could make a living doing what you love, you won.” ([34:54] [35:54])

• Contrasts “business side” with creative spark, advising students to focus on passion.

[36:21] Challenging and Channeling Anger

• Early on, Lee was labeled “belligerent” by the press around releases like Do The Right Thing ([36:32]).

  “When Do the Right Thing premiered in Cannes 1989, [journalists] said this film was going to cause riots, Black people riot in the summertime.” ([37:32]) “It’s kind of crazy looking back on that. Like a film’s not gonna do that…but we… talked about [things that] came to life in later years.” ([38:01])

[38:58] Musical Heritage

• On his jazz bassist father Bill Lee’s musical purism:

  “Anything that was played with electricity, you know, he was not with that. … He called it ‘tone ass is.’” ([39:20])

• Family struggles depicted in Crooklyn are true to life ([40:07–41:28]).

[41:46] Malcolm X and Cinematic Impact

• Tonya Mosley recalls seeing Malcolm X for a school trip, ending with a communal recitation of “I am Malcolm X.”
• Lee shares getting Nelson Mandela to appear in the film:

  “I cannot say by any means necessary”—Mandela was running for office, wary of “kill you white folks” misconstruction ([44:53–45:26])

• John David Washington (Denzel’s son) appears as a child in that scene ([45:48]).
• The “I am Malcolm X” classroom scene is an homage to Spartacus and to diaspora unity:

  “I wanted to show the bond between African Americans and our brothers and sisters who were still [under apartheid].” ([46:01])

[47:07] On Recognition and the Academy

• Lee recounts loss and frustration at the Oscars (e.g., Do the Right Thing losing to Driving Miss Daisy and BlacKkKlansman to Green Book). Humorously notes:

  “Every time somebody’s driving somebody, I’m gonna lose. Driving Miss Daisy and Green Book.” ([48:37]) “There’s footage of me being not happy… jumped out of my seat… cursing and my wife trying to have me sit down…” ([48:37])

[49:31] World Cinema’s Influence

• Lee draws a line from Kurosawa’s Rashomon to She’s Gotta Have It:

  “That premise I use for She’s Gotta Have It. So this is not the first thing, you know, I’m getting down with my brother Kurosawa.” ([50:07])

[50:40] Meeting Kurosawa

• Meeting Kurosawa, receiving an autographed portrait in white paint—a treasured memory ([50:40–51:22]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you. Mic drop. Let’s go home.” —Jane Fonda, as Grace, Grace and Frankie ([20:22])
• “Empathy is not weak or woke.” —Jane Fonda ([03:10])
• “I started shaking… and all I wanted to do was take my mother in my arms and hold her.” —Jane Fonda on reading her mother’s records ([16:40])
• “If you could make a living doing what you love, you won.” —Spike Lee ([35:54])
• “Every time somebody’s driving somebody, I’m gonna lose.” —Spike Lee on Oscars ([48:37])
• “Mommy, why is that lady… her name Pussy Galore?” —Young Spike Lee to his mortified mother ([31:25])

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Key Timestamps

• [03:10] Jane Fonda’s speech and “documentary moment”
• [07:07] Fonda on urgency and activism in America
• [10:14] Fitness empire origins
• [12:35] Parental legacy, loss, and healing
• [20:22] “Mic drop” scene from Grace and Frankie
• [27:02] Clip from Highest to Lowest
• [34:54] Spike Lee’s philosophy on passion and filmmaking
• [41:46] Emotional response to Malcolm X in theaters
• [45:25] Nelson Mandela’s cameo and reasoning
• [48:37] Oscars losses and candid reaction
• [50:40] Lee meets Kurosawa

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Concluding Thoughts

Both guests exemplify lives led with courage and self-examination. Jane Fonda’s journey highlights transformation, resilience, and an unflagging call to justice. Spike Lee remains cinema’s provocateur and conscience, using artistry to force society’s toughest questions into the daylight. This episode captures the spirit, wit, and wisdom of two culture-shaping legends in conversation as the world changes around—and because of—them.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

From whyy in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend. Today, Jane Fonda. At 87, the Oscar winning actor is pouring her energy into activism. She'll reflect on her decades long career and how she first began her fitness empire to fund her activist work. Also, we hear from Spike Lee. His latest film, highest to lowest, reimagines Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic High and Low. But through the lens of modern day America and hip hop culture, Denzel Washington stars as a powerful music mogul whose life unravels when kidnappers mistakenly hold his friend's son ransom instead of his own. The story becomes a tense moral dilemma. Does he risk everything to save a child who isn't his? That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Spike Lee]

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[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. Tanya Mosley has today's first interview. He's here's Tonya.

[Tanya Mosley]

My guest today is Jane Fonda. When she accepted the SAG AFTRA Lifetime Achievement award back in February, she used the moment to sound an alarm. Empathy is not weak or woke, she told the room, urging her peers to use their platforms for good.

[Jane Fonda]

Have any of you ever watched a documentary of one of the great social movements like apartheid or our civil rights movement or Stonewall, and asked yourself, would you have been brave enough to walk the bridge? Would you have been able to take the hoses and the batons and the dogs? We don't have to wonder anymore because we are in our documentary moment.

[Tanya Mosley]

Six months later, I'm talking with Fonda not about a new film or project, but about the path that brought her to that speech. Born in 1937 into one of Hollywood's most famous families, Fonda came of age when women were expected to be seen but not outspoken. But through the decades, Fonda found her voice first on screen, where she went on to win two Academy Awards in 1971 for Klute, playing a New York City call girl trying to leave sex work and pursue an acting career and in 1978, flute for coming Home, portraying a military wife whose husband ships off to Vietnam. Fonda's career and life choices have rarely been predictable. In the 80s, she became an unexpected fitness mogul. Her first workout tape remains the number one selling home video of all time. And through the decades, she's chosen to live a life of resistance, marching against the Vietnam War, supporting civil rights and Native American activists and and more recently, as an environmental activist. In 2019, she held weekly climate demonstrations on Capitol Hill, where she was arrested five times. Jane Fonda, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Jane Fonda]

It's good to be back.

[Tanya Mosley]

I initially wanted to talk with you six months ago after the SAG AFTRA Awards ceremony where you won the lifetime Achievement award. But I couldn't get you till now. So, yes, I'm happy to have you here. Thank you. But that speech, the timing of it, it came one month after the inauguration. And there's something else you said in it. I want to read this quote. A whole lot of people are going to be really hurt by what is happening, what is coming our way. And even if they're a different political persuasion, we need to call upon our empathy and not judge, but listen from our hearts and welcome them into our tent because we're going to need a big tent to resist what is coming at us. Who were you thinking about when you wrote those lines?

[Jane Fonda]

Oh, I was thinking about all the people that live in the middle of the country. You know what, what's called flyover country. People who used to belong to Unions that worked, jobs that paid enough to buy a house and send your children to high school and college, and that's gone for them. When the rug has been pulled out from under you like that, you know, where does your sense of self, your sense of meaning, your self respect? It's very hard. And you're going to be very angry. You know, my dad came from Nebraska, from Omaha, and I've walked precincts in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio. And, you know, people, people are really angry and they're really hurting. And so they voted a certain way. 78 million Americans did. All of them are not MAGA, you know, and when they realize that what they voted for has turned against them, that it's not what they thought, that prices are gonna go up, healthcare they're gonna not be able to afford, the medical care that they need and the food that they need and so on, you know, they're gonna be looking for alternatives. And I think those of us, well, a lot of us in America have alternatives to offer. And we have to not judge, but we have to put forward a vision of what we think America should be.

[Tanya Mosley]

Do you feel like it's your duty at this age, 87 years old, to say these things, to speak, to still be an activist? Because I mean, you could be off on an island somewhere, just living.

[Jane Fonda]

I say that and I don't understand how. I mean, I can't even imagine right now being on an island someplace. You know, there's a book I want to write, but when I write, I go inward. This is not the time to go inward. We have to go out. We have to speak, we have to shout. We have to find non violent ways to avoid what's happening, which is we're very, very close to becoming fascist in this country. I never, ever imagined that that would be the case. But it's beginning to happen. And we have to find ways to stop that.

[Tanya Mosley]

Today. One of the things that you're focused.

[Jane Fonda]

On, among many issues, I'm focused on one thing. Well, actually two things. Saving our democracy and confronting the climate crisis. And they go together. They're totally interdependent. We can't solve one without the other. You can't have a stable democracy with unstable climate. You can't have a stable climate without a stable democracy. And they'll be solved together.

[Tanya Mosley]

In 2019, you were arrested five times.

[Jane Fonda]

That's no big deal. My beloved friend Martin Sheen has been arrested 72 times. And I'm famous. Yes. You know what I mean? And I'm a privileged person. They don't treat me the way they would if I did exactly the same thing and I was black. It would not be the same and it wouldn't probably be the same now. If I got arrested now, it would probably be for five years.

[Tanya Mosley]

You know, would you still be willing to put yourself on the line to do that?

[Jane Fonda]

I don't know right now because I think that what I'm doing with my Jane Fonda Climate PAC is important enough for me to be sure I don't go to jail for five years. I have to keep doing this. This is important. We're focusing with my PAC down ballot, that is to say governors, mayors, city council, state legislators, county executives, state and local building a firewall because this is where the real climate and democracy work is being done right now on the state and local level.

[Tanya Mosley]

You know, Jane, you're kind of the most visible activist of your generation, but do you think that your generation also to a certain extent bore some responsibility for the moment that we're in?

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah, I do. It's called neoliberalism. A lot of so called Democratic leaders for the last decades, but particularly starting in the 80s moved to corporate liberalism, you know, so that the Democratic Party seems to be kowtowing to its donors and moving to the middle, which is not what we need to be doing.

[Tanya Mosley]

Okay. Little known fact about your fitness empire, you actually recorded that first tape because you were trying to fund your activism.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, my second husband and I had started a statewide organization called the Campaign for Economic Democracy. The war had ended and we began to focus on the economic inequality that exists in this country. So we focused on that. It was the beginning of the very apparent takeover of much of our economy by corporations, including agriculture. And a light bulb went off. I have to start a business. And this took us about a year to figure out what it should be. And it turned out it was the workout. So the money went to the Campaign for Economic Democracy.

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to Tanya Mosley's interview with Jane Fonda. She's a two time Oscar winning actor, a best selling author, fitness pioneer and activist. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break.

[Spike Lee]

Terry?

[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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[Terry Gross]

Let's get back to Tanya Mosley's interview with Jane Fonda. In the next part of our conversation, we briefly discuss suicide. If you're having thoughts of suicide and help is available by calling or texting 988, which is the national suicide and crisis lifeline. Again, the number to call or text is 988.

[Tanya Mosley]

You had gone through this long period, really all of your life, based on what society had told you, based on what? Your father, your father, your father used to say some pretty horrible things to you about your body.

[Jane Fonda]

He objectified me and he objectified women. You know, for all, one of the things that I've really learned is our parents aren't perfect. Our parents have all the weaknesses that all humans have. You know, he wasn't perfect, but he was a good man. He had good values and he did his best. And so I don't feel anger or anything. That's the way men of that generation thought about women.

[Tanya Mosley]

When did you come to understand that? That he's of a generation and he's a good man, but he was a man of his time.

[Jane Fonda]

When I got older. Not as old as I am now. No. I think probably in my 50s and 60s. I make peace with that.

[Tanya Mosley]

After he passed away.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I'm going to have to pass away before my kids make peace with me because I certainly have not been a perfect parent, but I've done my best.

[Tanya Mosley]

Oh, it's so interesting because so much of your life and what you've talked about, when people sit down and talk with you, it's about your relationship between you and your father, Henry Fonda, and then your mother, who passed away when you were 12.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, she didn't pass away. She killed herself.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah. She died by suicide.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah. She was bipolar. Yeah.

[Tanya Mosley]

There's a documentary about your life that came out a few years ago, and in that documentary, your son says, I think my mother's number one wound the place by which she moves through the world comes from that original ache and hurt of losing your mother at 12 years old. But you received this gift later in life. Were you able to read her medical records that gave you a deeper understanding of her. It helped you understand yourself.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, even as a child, I knew, and I would say to myself, something happened to her, my mother, as a child, because I knew that there was something wrong. I knew that she didn't really love me or my brother, but my brother more than me, because she wanted a boy. But when I was writing my memoir, My Life so Far, in the early 2000s, I got a lawyer to get her records from the institution where she was when she killed herself. And among the papers that I got was she must have been asked to write a little biography of herself. And I read that, and it turns out that she was sexually abused at age 7. And I could tell reading this document, she'd been a secretary, so she knew how to type. Small typing, single space, very intense. What it was that had happened to her. I think she had, you know, mental issues. Her father was alcoholic and schizophrenic and paranoid and a problem. But then to have on top of that, being sexually abused had really affected her. Yeah.

[Tanya Mosley]

Put me in the time frame of when you were able to get those records. Where were you in life?

[Jane Fonda]

I was single. Ted Turner. My third husband and I had separated, and I was writing my book. I had asked for five years. I said, don't ask me. You know, I don't want a quick deadline or I'm going to take five years. And I was in the beginning, part of the five years of writing my memoirs.

[Tanya Mosley]

What did that provide for you to learn that information about your mom?

[Jane Fonda]

I remember when I read it, I was alone in a hotel room, and I started to shake. I got so cold, and I got in bed and covered myself up, and I started crying. And all I wanted to do was take my mother in my arms and hold her and tell her how sorry I was and that I understood. And then I know she did her best. Yeah, yeah.

[Tanya Mosley]

You've been working pretty consistently for the last few decades, but around 91, all the way into the mid-2000s, you retired, you went away from public life. And although you've talked about it, everybody I talk to says, oh, yeah? What was she doing during that time?

[Jane Fonda]

I was married to Ted Turner.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes.

[Jane Fonda]

I married from 10 years, from 90 to 2000. You can't be married to Ted Turner and have another job. That's the job and it's a full time job, and it was great. And I. I'm so grateful that I had Ted in my life for 10 years. Cause he's the most interesting, fascinating, exciting, wonderful guy.

[Tanya Mosley]

This interesting thing has happened to you through your life, though, where there comes a certain point where you outgrow that life. It's like you're becoming more and more Jane as you move through life. Is that a fair way to put it?

[Jane Fonda]

It's a very astute way. I'm amazed to hear you say that. Yes. Yeah.

[Tanya Mosley]

Because you decided to come back to acting after that marriage.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, I spent five years after the marriage writing my memoir. And at the very end of that writing process, I received a script called Monster in Law, and my best friend produced it, Paula Weinstein. The late Paula Weinstein, God bless her. And it was a great comeback.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah. And you've been working pretty consistently after that. One of the projects you're very proud of is Grace and Frankie, which was a Netflix comedy which ran for seven seasons starring you and Lily Tomlin, who you guys have a long history together. I mean, nine to five.

[Jane Fonda]

We've made three movies together. Yes. Yeah.

[Tanya Mosley]

In Grace and Frankie, you're two women in your 70s whose husbands, played by Martin Sheen and Sam Waterson, leave the both of you for each other, and it forces you both into this unlikely close relationship. I want to play a scene from the second season. Grace and Frankie are speaking to their exes and their children about, like, how they feel like they're being mistreated. And this clip has been edited for time. Lily Tomlin speaks first. Let's listen.

[Jane Fonda]

You.

[Spike Lee]

You turned me into a little old.

[Jane Fonda]

Lady who's losing her mind and shouldn't even be allowed to drive. And I'm just a dupe who couldn't possibly have any good advice to give. And you.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Oh, God.

[Jane Fonda]

You said you wouldn't hire me because I'd overshadow you, but I gave you the first new idea that Seg Race has had since you took over. Well, we gave you the first idea and you never acknowledged it. You took credit for it, and then you threw Frankie to the curb.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Mom, you try being in business with her.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, I might. I will. I am.

[Spike Lee]

You are?

[Jane Fonda]

Well, yeah, we talked about it. Oh, yes, we talked about it. What are we doing? What are we doing? I'll tell you what we're doing. We're. We're making vibrators for women with arthritis.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Jane Fonda]

Vibrators.

[Spike Lee]

Brilliant.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I highly doubt there's a vibrator market for GERIATRIC women with arthritis.

[Jane Fonda]

There is. I'm in agony.

[Spike Lee]

Seriously, mom, how do I explain to.

[Tanya Mosley]

My children that their grandma makes sex.

[Spike Lee]

Toys for other grandmas?

[Jane Fonda]

I'll tell you what you can tell them, honey. We're making things for people like us because we are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you. Mic drop. Let's go home.

[Tanya Mosley]

That was my guest today, Jane Fonda with Lily Tomlin on the show. Grace and Frankie and June.

[Jane Fonda]

Diane Raphael in there a little bit. My wonderful daughter.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes. What has it been like for you playing Grace, playing this character who has so many different notes at that specific age?

[Jane Fonda]

It was great. It was fun. And, you know, I'm just in awe of Lily Tomlin. I mean, the fact that I got seven years to spend with her, I am deeply grateful. This woman is a true genius, and it was just a great experience. Marta Kaufman, I'm so grateful for her. She came to us and said, I want to make a series with the two of you. And she did it. She created. Was fun. It was wonderful. I had a nervous breakdown the first season.

[Tanya Mosley]

Oh, why?

[Jane Fonda]

I hated the first season.

[Tanya Mosley]

Why?

[Jane Fonda]

I dreaded going to work every day. And when it was at the end, I thought, well, what am I going to do? I'm either I'm going to quit the business for good and I was seriously old then and I couldn't have had a comeback, or I guess I'll have to go into therapy and figure it out. And I did.

[Tanya Mosley]

What did you figure out?

[Jane Fonda]

First scene of the first episode. Lily and I, we hate each other. We're at this restaurant waiting for our husbands, and they arrive and what do they do? They tell us that they are in love with each other and they're going to leave us and they're going to get married to each other, and then the whole rest of the season is about that. How do we recover from that? How do we become friends instead of enemies and like that? And in therapy, What I realized is what it triggered that first episode in me was abandonment. And so the whole season was about dealing with abandonment. And I just. It was horrible. And I went into therapy and I figured it out, and then I fell in love with Grace, and everything from then on was fine.

[Tanya Mosley]

What an amazing job you have that you're able to work through real life.

[Jane Fonda]

Issues, through these characters, and you're never too old, you know, I've gone back into therapy now at 87, because I want to figure out why I'm not a better person and why I wasn't a Better parent. And I'm figuring it out.

[Tanya Mosley]

Wait, so you weren't in therapy?

[Jane Fonda]

And it all started when I was 60, when I said I didn't want to have regrets. I don't want to have regrets. And so I've gone into therapy, so I won't have any regrets and I'll understand what it was all about.

[Tanya Mosley]

Jane, what do you think it is about you, this quality that you have that you keep striving?

[Jane Fonda]

Resilience. Resilience is such an interesting thing. You know, I think people are born with it. You know, resilience is when a young child who is not getting love at home, kind of there's a radar scanning the horizon. If there's a warm body that maybe could love her or teach her something, you go there, you find love where you can, you find support where you can. That's a resilient child. That was me.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah, but there's also, you know, I mean, the phrases aren't just for anything. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Oh, as you get older, you're set in your ways. Those are all things that when Ted.

[Jane Fonda]

And I separated, he said to me, people don't change. It's after 60. People don't make new friends after 60. I'm sorry, that's not true. No. I'm grateful that I have a very vibrant old life.

[Tanya Mosley]

Jane Fonda, this has been such an honor. Thank you so much for taking Tanya.

[Jane Fonda]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Jane Fonda spoke with our co host Tanya Mosley. With filmmaker Spike Lee. There are a few guarantees. The story will have something to say, the images will enter the cultural conversation, and he's going to weave in New York every chance he gets. Over 40 years and more than 35 films, Spike Lee has captured defining moments in American life. The racial tensions on the hottest day of the year in do the Right Thing, the sweeping life of Malcolm X, and the devastation and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. In when the Levees Broke, he's given us dramas, comedies and documentaries that take on power, history, race and community. And along the way, he's introduced audiences to actors we now can't imagine Hollywood without. Halle Berry, Rosie Perez, Samuel L. Jackson and Denzel Washington, to name a few. His latest highest to lowest flips Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic High and Low into a modern day hip hop drama. Denzel Washington plays a music mogul whose world unravels when his family is pulled into a ransom plot. Spike Lee recently spoke with our co host Tonya Mosley.

[Tanya Mosley]

Spike Lee, welcome back to Fresh air.

[Spike Lee]

When was the last time I was here?

[Tanya Mosley]

I know it's been some years.

[Spike Lee]

It's been a minute. Look, I'm happy to be here. Let's go.

[Tanya Mosley]

Let's go. Let me tell audiences about this film. So in this film, Denzel Washington plays David King. He owns this record label, this very successful record label. And his son, along with the son of his friend and driver Jeffrey Wright, is kidnapped for ransom. And the kidnapper, played by A$AP Rocky, accidentally releases the wrong young man, leaving King and the decision to fork over $17.5 million in French.

[Spike Lee]

In Swiss francs.

[Tanya Mosley]

In Swiss francs for a young man who is not his son. Let's listen to a clip.

[Spike Lee]

King, David. Now, ain't this son. Sorry, I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me? Yeah, I'm listening. Good. You know you got the wrong boy, right? Yeah, so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help. But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you. Well, I'm fair enough. But if it's about me that you can't expect me to pay 17 and a half million dollars for somebody else's son. If it's about me, well, then his blood is going to be on your hands. Then how you want it? No, man, come on now. This ain't no negotiation. It's a day of reckoning. You not God no more? I am. All right, listen. God give you everything you want, right? No. God give you everything you need. So the question is, what do you need? How can I help you? I ain't saying I'm God, but I could help.

[Tanya Mosley]

That was a scene from Spike Lee's newest film, Highest to Lowest Spike. This film wrestles with a couple of different themes, but there is this main question that is being asked. What would you do to save your own child? What would you do to save the child of someone you love? And you've always taken on subjects that kind of move with time, like you're asking a moral question in your work. What was it in particular about this story, reimagining this story that you felt like was so important to tell right now?

[Spike Lee]

Well, I'm glad they used the word reimagining. I say reinterpretation because I'm running away from the word remake. But Kurosawa's film, the Great Kira Kurosawa, who made this film, Post War Japan, 1963, is from a book by a writer, Ed McBain. And the strength of this film, the strength of the book and Kurosaw's film, it really deals with morality. And when you have a actor, and in the Japanese version, Tish Mafune, one of the great, great actors, and with Denzel, who's right there, great actors, when they're going through trials and tribulations, the audience becomes engaged, and they're with that person every step of the way. Consequently, Oasis, when they see this film, the ones we've seen already, they're with Denzel's character, David King, and they ask themselves, what would they do?

[Tanya Mosley]

Right, right.

[Spike Lee]

What would they do in the position that they see on screen that the great magnificent Denzel Washington is in? And takes. It takes star quality. Here's the thing. The reason why people are stars, because they have the talent and the audience is engaged.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And from the jump, Dawn's been engaged with Mr. Denzel Washer in the original.

[Tanya Mosley]

Film, in Kurosawa's film, the protagonist is a shoe executive.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Tanya Mosley]

And yours a music mogul. Why did you choose music? It's an interesting.

[Spike Lee]

Well, that was the script, went through Hollywood for many years. And so when it ended up in Denzel's hands, that change had already been made. So I got a call. Denzel says, spike, you got this script you want to read? I said, yeah, send it FedEx. And before I even hung up the phone, I knew I wanted to do the film. Not even knowing, having read what the script was and what it was about. Cadenzel didn't say. He didn't describe you just said, I got a script. I want you to read it. And that's the way it happened.

[Tanya Mosley]

It's interesting that that was already the way the script was written when it got to you. And of course, immediately you're like, yes, music is such an integral part of your work. It's interwoven into your scene.

[Spike Lee]

It's part of the filmmaking.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah, it's part of the filmmaking. There's this piece of music, though, right off the top. It's. You open with the 1943 Rodgers and Hammerstein, oh, what a Beautiful Morning from Oklahoma.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Tanya Mosley]

But the rest of the film is like soul and hip hop. How did that. Is there a story behind you?

[Spike Lee]

Well, I love all types of music. And I remember my mother, who's a cinephile. My father hated movies, but my mother is a cinephile, and I'm the oldest, so I was my mother's movie date because my father hated Hollywood. So she introduced me a whole lot of films. Of course, at the time, I didn't want. I mean, I wanted to run it I was a wild broken kid, run up and down the streets and play stickball and stoop ball stuff. But she says, I'm taking your little rusty butt. We're going to the movies. So I don't care what you say. And here's the thing, though. Every time I was like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. And then we'll come out there, I said, mommy, that was good. So it's just an example of kids don't know. And when parents take the time, introduce their stuff to children who might go kicking and screaming, but when they come out of the theater, the movie theater or the museum, whatever, you know, you can say, lies been changed. And I know that's happened to me.

[Tanya Mosley]

Do you remember one of the movies your mom took you to that really stuck with you?

[Spike Lee]

All right. This is, this is a famous one. I've said this before. So anybody at home who's seen heard this before, excuse me. My mother loved Sean Connery as James Bond 007. And my mother, she didn't. She would she always want to go to the opening weekend of these films. And the theater was packed. And you know, those early James Bond films, explosions, gunplay, just, just crazy stuff. And there was a lull in the film. You have to have those. You can't do that the whole length of the film. You got to get the audience of breath, you know, just some quiet, you know, and that there's completely quiet. I said to my mother, mommy, why is that lady, why is her name Pussy Galore? The whole theater heard that. My mother grabbed me by the neck and said, don't you say another thing. What I do.

[Jane Fonda]

What I do.

[Spike Lee]

True story. But that film came out in 63. I was born, I was six years old, right?

[Tanya Mosley]

You're like, what's this?

[Spike Lee]

I don't know, but it just sound like a funny name to me.

[Tanya Mosley]

And you still remember it to this day. Hey, every time that word come up.

[Spike Lee]

Even adults probably says about that name of that character, my mother was embarrassed.

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to Tonya Mosley's interview with filmmaker Spike Lee. His new movie, highest to Lowest, reimagines Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic High and Low. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. Terry I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh AIR weekend.

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[Tanya Mosley]

Denzel's character has lost his ear really. Like he's become so far away from that hungry, artistic guy he was at the beginning of his life.

[Spike Lee]

He has a great scene where his wife, played by little Fish Adair, says that, you know, she doesn't see the joy anymore.

[Tanya Mosley]

Right. And it's something that I heard happen often. I mean, sometimes I can feel it. You get to midlife and you feel like this thing that you're so passionate about, it's ebbs. There are ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Have you ever been there? No, you've not. You've always had a passion film.

[Spike Lee]

Look, I can't talk for anybody else, but for me, I've never had fell out of love with cinema because I tell this to my students. My love has always been there. Now there's a business side that's different. But just talking about making films and I truly believe I was put here to be a storyteller. So I'll never, you know, you got the bs. Well, push that aside and sometimes could be a big pile, right?

[Tanya Mosley]

Like, how do you not allow yourself to be consumed by all of that stuff you just have to deal with to get to the thing you love so much?

[Spike Lee]

Because when you get to the thing after going through that stuff, you're getting through the thing you love. And to break it down even a little more for my sister in the audience first day of class, I tell my students that I'm lucky and if you could make a living doing what you love, you won.

[Tanya Mosley]

I'm actually just thinking about you back when you first came on the scene. I mean, you came like a lightning bolt. You talk about campaigning for Malcolm X, putting that nicely. I remember the media really portraying you, talking to you a lot about being angry. And I had this debate with my husband about it because I was like, I actually really loved it. I felt like, you know, as a young person being anti establishment.

[Spike Lee]

What did your husband say?

[Tanya Mosley]

Well, he said, well, I never thought he was angry. I just thought he was confident and knew what he wanted and had a point of view. Right, but what was your assessment? You were kind of tough on the media those early days.

[Spike Lee]

Well, they were tough on me, you know, this belligerent young rabble rouser. I mean, when do the Right Thing came out, you know, I was portrayed as a racist and Mookie threw garbage can through Sal's famous window and Jungle Fever. I said I was anti Semitic because of how they felt the betrayal of the two Jewish owners of the club, played by the Turturro brothers, Nick and John. So I don't combat that type of criticism as much. I used to, of course, as it died down. But when do the Right Thing premiered in Cannes 1989, American Journalists was saying that this film was going to cause riots, black people riot in the summertime. And they were pleading to Universal Pictures, if you're going to release the film, don't release in summertime.

[Tanya Mosley]

Because they thought that would be why we'd be all riled up or something.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy looking back on that. Like a film's not gonna do that. But when you, if you look, that film really had the. The crystal ball. When you look at the killing, the murder of Ray Raheem by the NYPD and the Chokehold, where did that happen? We were talking about global warming. A lot of things in that film, you know, we talked about came to life in later years.

[Tanya Mosley]

I mean, the socio political message, it almost mirrored to a T 2020.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Tanya Mosley]

That's when everyone was talking about it. Like, Radio Raheem became a movie.

[Spike Lee]

And I wrote that script in 88. We shot in 89. And you know, look, I'm not happy. I'm not bragging about that, but we. I'm not happy that the stuff you had in the film ended up happening in real life, but it did.

[Tanya Mosley]

The thing about it is it seems like we didn't have the. We weren't there yet in the 80s and 90s. To have a true conversation about it came back up in 2020 allowed us to do. To tap into it a little bit.

[Spike Lee]

I know you're saying sis, but it's sad that people had to die for this to happen.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah. As you mentioned, your mom was deep into movies. Your dad was a jazz musician. You grew up, like, just surrounded by music.

[Spike Lee]

Creative household.

[Tanya Mosley]

Creative household. And they often say we like, love and we are connected to the music. That was a coming of age for us. Like, we are often perpetually stuck in it. But as a creative, like, how. How do you view the moving times, the music that we're hearing today, without sounding like a fuddy duddy, like, can you see that value?

[Spike Lee]

And people complaining about rock and roll back in the day? So I'm not necessarily a purist that, like, my father was. I mean, anything that was played with electricity, you know, he was not. He was not with that. He always was tone as is.

[Tanya Mosley]

Like, literally, like, he didn't even like to play records.

[Spike Lee]

My father, Bill Lee, was a top folk bassist working. He was on the first Simon and Garfunkel album, the first Gordon Lifetime. They played with Judy Collins. I mean, a whole bunch of people. He's on the Bob Dylan album. And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric. And my father choose to play Fender bass. He called it tone ass is. I'm not gonna do anything where electricity is used to amplify the sound and make it louder.

[Tanya Mosley]

Wow.

[Spike Lee]

And my mother had to go to work.

[Tanya Mosley]

Wow. If you saw Crooklyn, that's real life. That actually happened.

[Spike Lee]

That's the Lee family.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And my mother, I mean, but when my father was working, she was going to Bloomingdale's and Lord and Taylor you know, every week. But my father said, I'm not doing that. I'm not playing electric bass. My mother had to work, you know, and I. And I saw. I was feeling. As the eldest of five, I was feeling a certain way about my father because my mother was working, had to cook and clean. And including myself, my siblings, we were crazy. I mean, we would. When relatives knew that them bad leaves are coming over, they were like, oh, boy, I hope they don't eat up all our food and tear a house up.

[Tanya Mosley]

That was a real possibility, huh?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, it happened. Yeah, it happened. So I felt the way about my father, but then I understood that he's a purist. And my mother supported, loved him. And so she. She had to work, cook and clean. You know, she can do that. And hopefully, God willing, you know, my father get a break and the world will see the great musician he was. And later on, my mother died. He scored my films, my student films at NYU Graduate Film School. And then she used to have it, Bottle of Blues, do the Right Thing.

[Tanya Mosley]

And Jungle Fever, you know, Spike this Is a real treat for me to.

[Spike Lee]

Talk to you because the treat is mine. It's mutual, my sister.

[Tanya Mosley]

Oh, well, I'm happy about that. I think your films are part of, like, my self conception, my understanding of who I am and the role that I play in this world.

[Spike Lee]

What's the first film you saw? Mine. Did you have it?

[Tanya Mosley]

No. Cause I was too young for that. But I saw that later. But the one that really sits with me the most is Malcolm X. And I'll tell you why. Because I grew up in Detroit detoi. I grew up in Detroit. Detroit public schools. The day that your film came out, they allowed kids to leave school to go see it. And a teacher of mine had us all get on a bus and we arrived.

[Spike Lee]

You got on the bus?

[Tanya Mosley]

We all got on the bus together.

[Spike Lee]

I made a move too.

[Tanya Mosley]

And we arrived at the theater and there were lots of other schools there. And there is this moment at the end of the film that I want to play. It is where there are kids in classrooms in the United States and then on the continent of Africa.

[Spike Lee]

Soweto.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes. On May 19, that they designate Malcolm X Day. And each student stands up and says, I am Malcolm X. Let's listen to it.

[Spike Lee]

May 19th, we celebrate Malcolm X's birthday.

[Jane Fonda]

Because he was a great, great Afro American.

[Spike Lee]

Malcolm X is you, all of you. And you are Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. As Brother Malcolm said, we declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be given the rights of a human being, to be respected as a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day which we intend to bring into existence by any means.

[Tanya Mosley]

That was a clip from Spike Lee's 1992 film Write Malcolm X. It makes me emotional to hear it today. But I'll tell you, that day, I saw it in the theater when that by any means necessary. Everybody stood up in the theater. They were yelling, they were screaming.

[Spike Lee]

They were doing the Fist, the Black Power Fist. What grade was this? My sister.

[Tanya Mosley]

Ninth grade.

[Spike Lee]

Ninth grade. So, first year of high school. Let me tell you the story. I've seen a lot of people, a lot of great people. But to be in a room and direct the great Nelson Mandela for the end of the movie. And the reason why I chose that, because I read that Mr. Mandela, who was in prison for 27 years, I think.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes.

[Spike Lee]

On Robben Island. He said one of the things that kept him going was Autobiography of Malcolm X was told Alex Haley. And we're going over the script, which is a quote by Malcolm X. And he said, spike. Oh, no. He said, Mr. Lee, I cannot say by any means necessary. But I was. I. I had. First of all, I had the footage him saying this. I knew I could put that in there. But it wasn't until later I understood that because he was going to run to be president of South Africa.

[Tanya Mosley]

Mandela. Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And Africanas would use that against him by means necessary. We're going to kill you white folks. So he was very smart. I didn't protest. I said, it's okay. And also, one of those kids that says, I'm Malcolm X is John David Washington. Denzel Son.

[Tanya Mosley]

Denzel Washington's son. He's a young. I have to go back and look.

[Spike Lee]

At it later on, straight start my film. Blackkklansman.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes. How did that idea come about to have the kids stand up and declare that?

[Spike Lee]

That classroom scene, it's a homage to Spartacus. But also it worked also to show that we could do it then. And then the thing is that that sequence where kids stand up in school, start Soweto, but then it goes to Harlem. So I wanted to show the bond between African Americans and our brothers and sisters who were still.

[Tanya Mosley]

It's a powerful show that we are diaspora.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. And also apartheid was still in place.

[Tanya Mosley]

Going back, though, to that time period. You were sort of, like, responding to the media. You were responding to them, responding to your work and the thoughts that this work would spark something within black America.

[Spike Lee]

But something shifted, that there'd be uprising.

[Tanya Mosley]

Right. And so there was a response that you were giving to the media during that time that I just really remember feeling so strong. And then something happened with you. Then you became like the person we see today, like, so jovial and so open.

[Spike Lee]

But I was like that from the beginning. Well, you're talking about the way I was portrayed, which was not now who I was. But I cannot stand silent and say that. I mean, for example, that this film was. Caused black folks to riot. I'm talking specifically about do the Right Thing. And that film got two nominations. Daniello for Sal and also Denzel Wash for Glory. When I saw Glory in that scene was getting whipped and that lone tear went down his eye, I thought myself, danny, you ain't winning. This is not gonna happen. And then also we got. I mean, I got nominated for a screenplay. The film that Won that year was Driver's Daisy. So that could tell you more than enough about the climate. Then also people who voted and who were the people who were members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

[Tanya Mosley]

Did you ever feel that way, though? Like you were entitled to awards that you did not get, that you earned awards that you did not get? And where do you sit on it? Because.

[Spike Lee]

Well, I think that. I mean, there's footage of me being not happy the last time was with.

[Tanya Mosley]

Black Klansman, which wasn't that long ago. I mean, that's.

[Spike Lee]

What was the name of that film? Green Book. Green Book.

[Tanya Mosley]

Oh, it. Okay, so it won.

[Spike Lee]

So I said, man, every time somebody's driving somebody, I'm gonna lose. Driving Daisy and Green Book. And a funny thing, though, I was very upset and I jumped out of my footage of this at the Academy that night. I jumped out of my sea of street cursing and my wife trying to have me sit down like this. Get off me. And she sit. Then Tanya, my wife, sent my son out there to get me. And so I calmed down.

[Tanya Mosley]

It's never been a secret about the filmmakers who have inspired you over the years. I remember a few years ago, you had an exhibit at the Academy Museum. And like, all the folks were there. All of your heroes. Yeah. All of your giants. For you, though, a few years ago, She's Gotta have It was remade. Not remade, reimagined.

[Spike Lee]

That's the same thing happened with this film. People thinking Highest Low is not a remake of High and Low. Right. It was reinterpretation.

[Tanya Mosley]

Yes. That interpretation was an interpretation for the 20s, you know, the 2000s. Now your. She's Gotta have it was so subversive.

[Spike Lee]

Cause it was 1986.

[Tanya Mosley]

1986. About sexual liberation. A young woman who has the freedom to. I just wonder, like, as you move through time and you're experiencing your own work, other folks reimagining your story for a new time. Like, it's kind of like the beauty of storytelling.

[Spike Lee]

But let me tell you this, though. It was only when I got into NYU Graduate Film School, three year program that I really got introduced to world cinema. And the first Kurosawa film that I saw there wasn't a samurai film was Rashomon, which is a film about a murder and a rape and how these different characters each tell their version of the story. And that premise I use for She's Gonna have It. So this is not the first thing, you know, I'm getting down with my brother Kurosawa I got to meet too.

[Tanya Mosley]

When did you meet him?

[Spike Lee]

It was when he was here in the States. And at that time, Scorsese and Spielberg and Francis Ford were promoting, they produced the film. I forgot the name of the film. And one of my prized possessions, it was in this show at the Brook Museum is a, a beautiful portrait that he signed for me. He, he did the autographs with a paintbrush. Oh, he did not. Ink. So it's white ink and gives me a beautiful people. You go to my Instagram official, Spike Lee, you'll see the, this portrait, that of him that Curacao assigned me with a paintbrush with white paint.

[Tanya Mosley]

What a moment. And what a prized possession.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Tanya Mosley]

Did he know and understand the impact that he had on you through your films? Did you guys?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, I told him.

[Tanya Mosley]

You told him about it?

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

A lot of times when you meet these giants and, you know, after a while you go, I'm going for an hour, like Spike, all right, we get, I float. I'm glad I influenced your work, but I don't have an hour right here for you to tell me that.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah, right, right.

[Tanya Mosley]

Spike Lee, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been a pleasure.

[Terry Gross]

Spike Lee's new film, highest to Lowest, is now playing in theaters and streaming on Apple tv. Plus FRESH AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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