Best Of: Jason Isbell / David Tennant

Summary

Fresh Air: Best Of – Jason Isbell & David Tennant Release Date: April 12, 2025 | Host: NPR

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Introduction

"Fresh Air," NPR's acclaimed weekday magazine program hosted by Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, features in-depth conversations with prominent figures in the arts and public discourse. In this special "Best Of" episode, listeners are treated to memorable segments with musician Jason Isbell and Scottish actor David Tennant. The episode delves into Jason Isbell's introspective songwriting amidst personal upheaval and explores David Tennant's illustrious career, including his iconic role as the Doctor in "Doctor Who."

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Jason Isbell: Navigating Personal Turmoil Through Music

Overview of "Foxes in the Snow"

The episode opens with Sam Brigger introducing Jason Isbell, highlighting his new album, Foxes in the Snow. Isbell describes the album as a tapestry of emotions—“about old relationships, new relationships, gratitude, fear, loss, grief, joy” (00:25). The conversation underscores the album's introspective nature, deeply influenced by the fracturing of his marriage to fellow musician Amanda Shires.

Marriage and Songwriting

Terry Gross acknowledges the delicate nature of discussing personal relationships through music. She shares her admiration for both Jason and Amanda's songwriting, emphasizing the challenge of appreciating their individual narratives without taking sides:

“I like both of your songs. I can see both sides. I can enjoy both of your songs and appreciate each point of view...” (09:17).

Isbell responds thoughtfully, advocating for an “audio intimacy coordinator” to navigate such personal topics respectfully (00:40). This metaphor underscores the need for sensitivity in artistic expression.

Deep Dive into the Songs

“Bury Me”

The conversation delves into specific tracks from Isbell's album. The song "Bury Me" is introduced by Gross, who appreciates its opening:

“Bury Me where the wind don't blow... all the time.” (04:23).

Terry Gross connects the lyrics to Isbell's personal experiences with alcoholism and brief incarcerations:

“I have been to jail, yeah. Never for longer than a day, and never for anything violent, but, yeah, I have been for drinking too much...” (06:34).

“Gravelweed”

Isbell explains the metaphorical layers in "Gravelweed," clarifying misconceptions about perceived criticism:

“I think perspective, empathy for the other person starts to sink in as time passes...” (22:35).

He emphasizes self-critique over external judgment, striving to portray personal growth rather than blame.

“True Believer”

The song "True Believer" is discussed as a balance between melancholic themes and uplifting melodies, inspired by pop influences from his daughter Mercy's music preferences:

“If I've slipped, let me know because I think it's there...” (13:03).

Isbell highlights the challenge of maintaining authenticity while experimenting with new musical styles.

“Eileen”

Concluding the interview, Gross requests "Eileen," to which Isbell shares his journey overcoming vocal challenges:

“I had this really traumatic experience where I was singing a Bon Jovi song... I started taking vocal lessons and got an ENT...” (24:11).

Isbell's rendition of "Eileen" serves as a testament to his resilience and artistic evolution.

Notable Quotes

• "We need an audio intimacy coordinator." — Jason Isbell (00:40)
• "I'm trying to work on different levels... trying to work in a different way than how I've worked in the past." — Jason Isbell (12:05)
• "Time has a way of making us feel that way about each other after something like a breakup." — Jason Isbell (23:55)

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David Biancooli’s Review: “Dying for Sex” Miniseries

Before transitioning to David Tennant's segment, the episode features a review by TV critic David Biancooli on the Hulu miniseries "Dying for Sex." He praises the show for its emotional depth and nuanced character portrayals, highlighting Michelle Williams' standout performance as Molly:

“Her portrayal, like the series, is at times broadly and brilliantly comic, but also is so vivid and so involving it may bring you to tears.” (27:23).

Biancooli underscores the series' ability to blend humor with profound emotional resonance, making it a compelling watch beyond its initial premise.

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David Tennant: From Doctor Who to Podcasting

Career Highlights and Podcast Revival

Scottish actor David Tennant returns in this episode, discussing his multifaceted career and recent revival of his podcast, David Tennant Does a Podcast With. Reflecting on his decision to resume podcasting, Tennant explains it as a passion project that allows him to explore and celebrate the work of fellow actors:

“It's always a mixture of impulses...” (37:34).

Personal Reflections and Influences

Tennant shares personal anecdotes, including the influence of his father, a Presbyterian minister and TV show host, on his formative years:

“My father could get quite fiery... he was a performer.” (40:32).

He recounts early inspirations, particularly how "Doctor Who" shaped his aspirations despite childhood memories of the show's modest production values:

“I still forgave it or reveled in its shortcomings because actually the writing, they were incredibly well written.” (44:00).

Embodiment of the Doctor

Discussing his portrayal of the Doctor in "Doctor Who," Tennant emphasizes the balance between honoring the character's legacy and infusing his unique interpretation:

“You have to find yourself in it... hope that that produces something that's kind of endearing and not smug and annoying.” (49:27).

He reflects on the character’s wit and resilience, aiming to capture the Doctor's essence as both heroic and relatable.

Notable Quotes

• “It's a complicated one... you're very aware that someone wants to have a moment's interaction with you...” — David Tennant (38:36)
• “If you've slipped, let me know because I think it's there…” — Jason Isbell (13:03) (note: included previously)
• “The Doctor is funny because he uses wit to undermine some of those worst creatures that the universe can throw at him.” — David Tennant (49:27)

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Conclusion

The "Best Of" episode of "Fresh Air" masterfully weaves together the deeply personal narratives of Jason Isbell and the illustrious career of David Tennant. Jason Isbell's introspective songwriting offers a window into his emotional landscape amidst personal challenges, while David Tennant's reflections provide insight into his iconic roles and personal growth. Through engaging dialogue and poignant musical interludes, the episode encapsulates the essence of "Fresh Air" as a platform for meaningful conversations with influential artists.

Additional Highlights:

• Amanda Shires and Jason Isbell's Collaborative Tensions: The episode touches upon the 2023 documentary Running With Our Eyes Closed, which chronicles the making of Isbell's 2020 album Reunions and the strains in his marriage during the COVID lockdown.
• David Tennant’s Multifaceted Roles: Beyond "Doctor Who," Tennant discusses his roles in Shakespearean productions and other television series, showcasing his versatility as an actor.
• Listener Engagement: Terry Gross expresses her thoughtful approach to discussing sensitive topics, aiming to honor both artists' perspectives without intrusion.

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Final Note: For those who missed this episode, "Fresh Air: Best Of – Jason Isbell & David Tennant" offers a rich exploration of artistic expression and personal resilience. Whether you're a fan of Jason Isbell's heartfelt melodies or David Tennant's charismatic performances, this episode provides valuable insights and inspiration.

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This summary is based on the transcript provided and captures the essential discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, structured into clear sections with notable quotes and proper attributions.

Transcript

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[Sam Brigger]

From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Sam Brigger with FRESH AIR Weekend Today, musician Jason Isbill. The songs on his new album are.

[Jason Isbell]

About old relationships, new relationships, gratitude, fear, loss, grief, joy.

[Sam Brigger]

Several songs allude to the fracturing of his marriage to musician Amanda Shires. Terry asked if they could find a way to talk about these songs without being invasive.

[Jason Isbell]

We need an audio intimacy coordinator.

[Terry Gross]

I love that idea.

[Sam Brigger]

Also, we hear from Scottish actor David Tennant. When he was three, he told his parents he wanted to grow up to play Doctor who on tv. As a teen, he held onto that dream.

[David Tennant]

You know, I was sort of quite weedy and I wore glasses and I had a terrible haircut. So all those things still felt possible. In the world of the doctor. There was something about that character that I could be.

[Sam Brigger]

Tennant was Doctor who for five years.

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[Sam Brigger]

This is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Sam Brigger. Terry has our first interview. I'LL let her introduce it.

[Terry Gross]

My guest, Jason Isbell, was described in Variety as the poet laureate of American rock. The quibble I have with that is that I'm not exactly sure I'd call it rock because there's country and folk music blended into many of his songs. Maybe the word Americana more suits him. He's won nine Americana Music Awards and six Grammys. His lyrics are as well written as a good poem or short story. They're often very personal, and that was especially true of his album Southeastern, which was released in 2013 and was his first album since Getting Sober. It's also true of his new album Foxes in the Snow, on which he sounds especially naked because it's solo. His band, the 400 unit, sits this one out. It's just Isbel and his guitar. Some of the songs are about the blame, anger and guilt when a relationship ends and about the exhilaration of falling in love again. His ex wife, Amanda Shires, is also a songwriter and singer and violinist who performed with Isbel. She's written her own songs about the cracks in their relationship. They were in a 2023 documentary together called Running With Our Eyes Closed, which is about the making of Isbell's 2020 album reunions, on which she played fiddle. The film also ended up being about the tension in the marriage, which was exacerbated during the COVID lockdown, when they spent more time together than they ever had. Jason Isbell got his professional start with the band the Drive By Truckers. Before we hear some of the relationship songs, let's start with a song that opens the album. I love this one. It's called Bury Me.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Bury Me where the wind don't blow where the dust won't cover me where the tall grass grows or bury me right where I fall Tokyo to Tennessee I love them all. See the windmills turn up 55 still got so much to learn still feel alive. One lonely girl is all I need to tie me to this world make me believe well, I ain't no cowboy but I can ride and I ain't nowhere long but I've been inside. And there were bars of steel, boys and there were bars to sing and there were bars with swinging doors for all the time.

[Terry Gross]

That was Bury Me from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow. Jason Isbell, welcome back to FRESH air. I love this album. Congratulations on it. And I love this song. And I hope I don't mangle this, but I want to quote some of the lyric this is the chorus. I ain't no cowboy but I can ride I ain't no outlaw but I've been inside and there were bars of steel, boys and there were bars to sing and there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between. And that's so great because you're talking about a jail with bars of steel. Music which has bars delineating each segment, each like four notes or whatever. And bars with swinging doors, those are like old Western saloons that have those swinging doors. And you were a drinker for years, so that's just. It's like. Were you in jail, too?

[Jason Isbell]

I have been to jail, yeah. Never for longer than a day, and never for anything violent, but, yeah, I have been for drinking too much. Yeah. Just from drinking. Drinking and yelling, hollering at people who were also drinking.

[Terry Gross]

So you imagine you managed to incorporate some of your own story into this kind of cowboy song.

[Jason Isbell]

Yes, but it's also. There are. You know, I'm attempting to work on different levels. This is not necessarily an allegorical song, but there are pieces of this song that are directly about me, you know, and there are details that I pull from my own life. You know, the swinging doors line. I mean, that could be. I'm sitting here looking at a gate out the window right now. And that could also be gates. And there is at least one very, very famous set of gates when it comes to writing folk music.

[Terry Gross]

You remember the Gates of Heaven?

[Jason Isbell]

I am indeed, yeah. In a death song, you know, so it's the kind of thing where, you know, sort of let my unconscious mind build these lyrical phrases, and then I go back and shape them into something that not only sings and scans accurately, which is. This is a huge part of the process for me that I think sometimes people don't realize how much energy you spend just trying to get something to sing naturally.

[Terry Gross]

Was death on your mind when you wrote this?

[Jason Isbell]

I don't know that death was on my mind any more than, you know, life was on my mind. I mean, anytime I think about being grateful, you know, I think I call it my hillbilly brain. But it goes to the worst possible scenario in a lot of situations. So, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about death. Not in a. Not in a sad or fearful way, but in a way that, you know, I think, well, I've already done so many things and got to see so many things, and that might not have necessarily been in the plans for me at the beginning, but. So I'm very, very grateful for the time that I have had. And I think this song deals with that, among other things. There was a time, though. There was definitely a time early on, after Amanda and I had split up, you know, when I was just. I was driving in the car and the radio wasn't on and I was alone, and I just heard myself say out loud without realizing that I was saying. And I heard myself say, is this going to kill me? And I didn't even know that I was, you know, didn't know that I was thinking that question, but I heard it bounce off the windshield. So, yeah, I mean, it's a combination of both of those things. Everything is brief. It's so, so brief, but it's so beautiful.

[Terry Gross]

I'm going to tell you my dilemma as a listener, and I'll preface this by saying I really love this album. So I first interviewed you in 2013, after Southeastern, your first album since getting sober. And at that time, you seemed so much in love with your wife, who I think you were already married. Amanda, who's also a songwriter and singer and violinist. And then I interviewed her in 2022 when she had an album out that included a couple of songs about fractures in the relationship. And your new album includes songs about factors in your relationship and ending a relationship, the pain of separating, the guilt of all of it, falling in love with someone new after and listening. I sometimes think, like, am I supposed to be taking sides here? Because I like her songs. I like your songs. I can see both sides. You know, it's kind of like friends of yours are breaking up, and you're supposed to choose, like, who stays your friend afterwards, you know? And then I thought, like, no, that's not what I. What I want to do. What I want to do is really enjoy both of your songs and appreciate each point of view and know that there's things in each of those points of view that I identify with. So I want to talk with you about writing these songs, but I also don't want to trespass on your privacy. So let's find a way to talk about it without getting too personal and making anyone uncomfortable.

[Jason Isbell]

We need an audio intimacy coordinator.

[Terry Gross]

I love that idea. Start something new. So I guess the first thing I'm wondering is, if you write a song that is critical of the person who'd been married to and who's the mother of your daughter, do you feel guilty about it? Do you fear. Is there a form of self censorship that comes in because you don't want to hurt the other person? Or do you just write what you want to write? And I think this is something that particularly memoirists run into all the time.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, where am I being critical?

[Terry Gross]

The song I'm about to play, for example, which is gravel weed. I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me. I'm sorry the day came when I felt I was raised. So it's kind of like you needed her to help you get through a period and now, like, you don't need her anymore because you got through it.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, now, I didn't say I'm sorry the day came when I was raised. I said I'm sorry the day came when I felt like I was raised.

[Terry Gross]

That's true. You say when I felt I was raised. Yes.

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah. And then the next chorus I say, and you couldn't reach me when I felt like I was raised.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Jason Isbell]

Okay, so I'm still looking for the critical part.

[Terry Gross]

So you think you're being self critical.

[Jason Isbell]

This is not my job, you see, My job is to write the songs. But it's in there. If you look close enough, your answers are all in there. I think that I'm always being self critical. I think I'm being as honest as I can be. And I think I am forcing myself to work at a higher level in some ways than I have worked before. Not necessarily in the part where it's glitter and dust and look what I can do. Look at the phrases I can turn. But in a way, let's see how much I can show people and still be neutral and still be an observer in my own life. And it's there. If I've slipped, let me know because I think it's there.

[Terry Gross]

So let's play the song and I'll say I'm from Brooklyn and I had to look up what a gravel weed was.

[Jason Isbell]

It's like the tree, the crack in the sidewalk, you know?

[Terry Gross]

Well, I looked it up and it looks like it grows really tall with flowers.

[Jason Isbell]

It does. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

In the part of the country where you're from, which is Alabama.

[Jason Isbell]

But it is, as Amanda and her dad would say, it's a trash plant.

[Terry Gross]

Right. Okay. All right.

[Jason Isbell]

It's not me. That's not a metaphor. Yeah, we're not doing the job right now. We're just talking right now. The gravelweed itself would be the kind of plant that you would pull.

[Terry Gross]

All right, let's hear the actual song, written and performed by my guest, Jason Isbell.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

I wish that I could be angry I wish I didn't understand I said your skin was like water and let you flow right through my hands Is there a Love that's crazy Is there a life that's not alive? All I know is I had to go, you know why? Why? Why? I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me and you couldn't reach me Once I felt like I was raised but now that I live to see my melodies betray me I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today.

[Terry Gross]

That's Jason Isbell, Gravelweed from his new album, which is called Foxes in the Snow. I want to quote another line from there, which is. But now I've lived to see my melodies betray me I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today. Can you talk about that a little bit? Having written love songs about one person and then written, inspired, I think, by the same relationship, songs about the relationship ending. How do those old love songs sound to you now? And do you still play them? Can you still play Cover Me up, for instance?

[Jason Isbell]

I can, yeah. Yeah. The old songs, they mean different things to me now because I have hindsight, you know, and the emotions that I'm feeling now when I'm playing those songs, they're not the same as they were when I wrote them, you know, they're certainly not that sort of obsession. There's more nostalgia for the person that I was when I felt that way. And there's also a document of love that I had for someone, and I feel like that was reciprocated at the time. And, you know, I mean, that's. That's just art, you know, that's. Our lives change. And the hard part for me is not writing about it. The hard part is. Is making the decisions that lead me to peace. That's very, very difficult. But I'm not just going to whine for the rest of my life. I have been given too much already for that.

[Terry Gross]

So many love songs and breakup songs have been written in every genre for centuries. How do you find new things to say, new words to use in a love song? I mean, Ira Gershwin even wrote a lyric. What can you say in a love song that's never been said before?

[Jason Isbell]

Which is a beautiful lyric. That's one way to do it, you know, What I try to do is closely document my own experience, even though I think my audience might not recognize themselves in this story. Usually what winds up happening is I come up with something that I might not be saying. A new thing, I might not. You know, everybody's looking at the moon, but we're all looking at it from a different spot. And so I'm trying to say instead of this is what the moon looks like. I'm trying to say this is what the moon looks like from right here. And you know, also, you don't have to say anything new. To tell you the truth, you don't. You can combine words and melodies in a way that sounds familiar. My rule is as long as you don't know who you're ripping off before the song comes out, then you're okay.

[Sam Brigger]

We're listening to Terry Gross's interview with Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. Sam I'm Sam Brigger, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Terry Gross]

I want to play another track from your new album, and this is called True Believer. And do you want to say anything about writing this song before we hear it? This is another relationship song, another breaking up or broken up kind of song.

[Jason Isbell]

No, I like the melody and the chorus on this one. This is one where my daughter Mercy, she's nine, she likes to listen to the pop hits of the day on her way to school and back home. And so I've been listening to a lot of the current pop hits and thought, man, I need to write this big, huge melody to go with this really sad song. So I like that melody a lot.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, well, I did, too.

[Jason Isbell]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

So this is True Believer.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Take your hand off my knee. Take your foot off my neck. Why y'all examining me like I'm a murder suspect? If I got a little loose, I just forgot to be Afraid But I started out a true believer Bab.

[Sam Brigger]

A.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Lot of dangerous memories Lot of bars.

[Jason Isbell]

In this town.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

But oh, to have.

[Jason Isbell]

Loved and lost and then still stuck.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Around But I heard God in the rhyme and I crawled out of the.

[Jason Isbell]

Grave and I guess I'm still a true believer Babe.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

All your girlfriends say I broke your heart and I don't like it There's a letter on the nightstand I don't think I'll ever read well, I finally found a match and you kept daring me to strike it and now I have to let it burn and let it be.

[Terry Gross]

So that's Jason Isbell from his new album, Foxes in the Snow. The song is called True Believer. You had asked me earlier, like, give me an example of a line where I sound critical of my ex or of an ex. So from the song we just heard two separate lines. Take your hand off my knee, Take your foot off my neck. And then all your girlfriends say, I broke your bleeping heart and I don't like it. There's a letter on the nightstand I don't think I'll ever read it. So that sounds. It sounds angry, and you sing it angry.

[Jason Isbell]

Okay, but those first two lines keep going. That when you said, take your hand off my knee, Take your foot off my neck.

[Terry Gross]

When you get to. I finally found a match and you're daring me. I'm trying to remember what the next it is.

[Jason Isbell]

Why are y'all examining me like I'm a murder suspect?

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yes, right.

[Jason Isbell]

Y'all would be the plural. So the person who's being addressed is not a single person. There's no criticism of a single person in that line. The second one.

[Terry Gross]

Take your hand off my knee and your foot off my neck. I love these songs. So I'm not criticizing you or the song. I'm just wondering, like, what it's like to write songs that are critical of somebody you've been so close to or at least seem to be about that.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, appreciate that. I very much appreciate it, but. And I know that you're not. And I don't mean to be sounding argumentative. I'm trying to show the trick a little bit. I think the closer you pay attention to this record, the more gracious the lyric becomes. I think time has a way of making us feel that way about each other after something like a breakup. I think perspective, empathy for the other person starts to sink in as time passes. I was hoping that that's how it would work with the lyrics on this record because it sounds accusatory. It sounds angry. And then you go back and think, well, who's he accusing and who's he angry at? And I think, unless I'm wrong, I think in every situation, the closer you look, the more it becomes obvious that the record's about growing and changing as me, myself, and not about accusing Amanda or any other individual person. I'm trying to push myself, and I'm trying to work in a different way than how I've worked in the past.

[Terry Gross]

So we're unfortunately out of time. I want to end with some music. I've picked all the music for this interview, so it's your turn. I want you to pick something to end with.

[Jason Isbell]

Let's see. Let's play Eileen. Have we played Eileen?

[Terry Gross]

No, we haven't, and I was thinking of that, too. I really love that.

[Jason Isbell]

Let's play Eileen. I think there's some really good turns of phrase in that song, and it's lower in my vocal register than anything I've ever sang before. A little over a year ago, I lost my voice, and I think part of this was probably psychosomatic. But also, I had just been yelling for 30 years and never really learned how to sing. And when my voice went out, I had this really traumatic experience where I was singing a Bon Jovi song at the Music Cares tribute to Jon Bon Jovi. And I don't know if you know this, but Bon Jovi songs are not easy to sing. And I looked down, and there sits Jon with Bruce Springsteen and Paul McCartney, and they're all sitting right in front of me, and they start counting off the song. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm not going to do a good job. And I didn't, you know, and. And it didn't kill me. And I started taking vocal lessons and got an ENT and learned how to sing over the course of the next year. And so not only can I sing higher than I used to, but I can sing lower, too, and Eileen is in a really low key for me.

[Terry Gross]

So we'll end with Eileen. But first, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure to have you back on the show, and thanks for the new album, Terry.

[Jason Isbell]

Thank you. You truly are an American treasure. I'm always a little bit nervous to talk to you because I know how smart you are and how much I enjoy listening to your show, and it's an honor for me.

[Terry Gross]

That means so much to me. Thank you so.

[Sam Brigger]

Much.

[Jason Isbell]

Started out like it always starts. Try to hold no hunger back you don't anticipate a broken heart can't see.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Nothing but the track A diamond earring in a bowery bed you kicked your shoes across the floor do you regret.

[Jason Isbell]

The things that went unsaid or have you heard it all before?

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Eileen, you should have seen this coming sooner Do I mean to be alone for all my days? Aline, you thought the truth was just.

[Sam Brigger]

A rumor, but that sure way Jason Isbell's new album is called Foxes in the Snow. He spoke with Terry Gross the new series Dying for Sex is an FX on Hulu production. It stars Michelle Williams from the Fabelmans and Blue Valentine as a woman whose cancer returns after a period of dormancy, leading her on a quest to explore her sexual drive and passions in a new way. Dying for Sex is based on a real story and inspired by a podcast of the same name. Our TV critic David Biancooli says the series ends up being much deeper and more emotionally resonant than he expected. Here's his review.

[David Tennant's Segment]

Dying for Sex, the new FX on Hulu miniseries now streaming in its entirety, has a basic premise that reminded me a bit of Breaking Bad. The main character gets a diagnosis of terminal cancer and reacts in ways that are both unexpected and uncharacteristic, with Walter White in Breaking Bad, the high school science teacher played by Bryan Cranston, he opts to use his knowledge of chemistry to make and sell crystal meth in order to provide a nest egg for the family he'll soon leave behind. With Molly, the long married woman played by Michelle Williams in Dying for Sex, she decides to embark on a quest to find a level of sexual satisfaction she's not yet experienced. Walter is Breaking Bad. Molly, at first glance is breaking sexy. But though that skeletal outline makes Dying for Sex sound like a titillating black comedy, it's more than that. I can't stress enough how much this new series got to me. Yes, some of the sexual encounters and misadventures are very funny, but the emotions and characters running throughout this series are so real and often so raw that though I laughed a lot at what I was watching, I also choked up a lot and really became caught up in the emotional lives of the show's characters. All of them. Dying for Sex is inspired by the story of a woman named Molly, who originally told her story in a 2020 podcast co hosted by her best friend Nikki. The relationship between Molly and Nikki is central to the miniseries from the very start. When Nikki sees Molly sitting outside a bodega looking sad and asks Her. What's wrong? Molly is played by Michelle Williams. Nikki is played by Jenny Slate.

[Terry Gross]

You know how I had that pain in my hip that wouldn't go away?

[Capital One Ad]

Uh huh.

[Terry Gross]

It's cancer. It's back.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

But you. It's been two years.

[Terry Gross]

I know you did everything that the doctor said and you took all the drugs and. Chill. I don't want to die just when.

[David Tennant]

I'm getting used to my new boobs.

[Capital One Ad]

You're not going to die.

[Terry Gross]

I am actually. It metastasized to my bones. It's incurable.

[David Tennant's Segment]

Molly's husband Steve, played by Jay Duplass, has been afraid to be intimate with her since her initial breast cancer diagnosis. Their marriage counseling sessions leave her unsatisfied, but a session with a newly assigned palliative care counselor leaves her encouraged to recognize and explore her deeper sexual feelings wherever they might lead. After a very long and bad day, she returns to her apartment and sees an unfamiliar neighbor guy. That's the way he's credited as neighbor guy doing a sloppy job of putting his garbage down the hallway's garbage chute. She reacts forcefully and we hear her inner thoughts, noting that she likes being dominant. And neighbor guy, played by Rob Delaney, seems to like her dominance too.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

Look.

[David Tennant]

You think you can just make a mess and expect that other people will clean it up?

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Pick it up. Oh my God. You're doing what I say.

[David Tennant]

Now say I'm disgusting.

[Jason Isbell]

I'm disgusting.

[David Tennant's Segment]

After that scene, you may think you have a good idea of where dying for sex is going. I thought I did, but I was really, really wrong. The reason for Molly's formerly closed off attitudes towards sex have to do with a childhood trauma which is revealed slowly and emotionally. And all of the characters surrounding Molly, even if they might appear easy to pigeonhole at first, will surprise you at some point. That goes for her friends and family, including her long estranged mother, played perfectly by Cissy Spacek. But it also goes for the caregivers, including David raiche as Molly's Dr. Esko, Julie as her care counselor, and Paula Pell as an oddly cheerful hospice nurse. Hulu's Dying for Sex is co created by Kim Rosenstock and Elizabeth Meriwether, both of whom come from the sitcom New Girl. They make this miniseries a TV journey you're not likely to forget. But the actors are most responsible for both the laughs and the tears here. Jenny Slate as the best friend, Rob Delaney as the neighbor and Sissy Spacek as the guilt ridden mom. All of them create fully dimensional vulnerable characters and are outstanding. And all of them revolve like planets around Michelle Williams as Molly, whose acting in Dying for Sex is so human and so touching it's hard to describe. I've been impressed and surprised by the depth of her acting several times before, including when she played Marilyn Monroe in My Week With Marilyn and the mother in the Fablemans and even Gwen Verdon in FX's Fosse Verdin series. But in Dying for Sex, Michelle Williams floored me. Her portrayal, like the series, is at times broadly and brilliantly comic, but also is so vivid and so involving it may bring you to tears.

[Sam Brigger]

Also, David Biancooli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Dying for Sex. It's streaming on Hulu. Coming up, Scottish actor David Tennant, perhaps best known for playing the Doctor on Doctor who. I'm Sam Brigger and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Sam Brigger]

NPR the latest season of the White Lotus served up a tropical buffet of sex, betrayal, violence, revenge, privilege, drugs, death. And this was new spirituality. But whose dead body was floating in the pond? We've seen the finale and we've got thoughts on thoughts. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr. Scottish actor David Tennant's list of accomplishments is as long as it is varied. Perhaps best known for playing Doctor who, he is also considered one of the finest Shakespearean actors of his generation, as you can see now in the film of his Macbeth, which was staged in 2023 with Tennant playing the lead and Kush Jumbo as Lady Macbeth. It's now streaming on Marquee tv. He has also memorably played Hamlet and Richard ii. You probably watched him as the haunted and brooding detective in the British crime drama Broadchurch and maybe even in the American adaptation called Grace Point, where he plays more or less the same role but with an American accent. David Tennant has also been his share of screen villains, including real life serial killer Dennis Nilsson in the miniseries DEZ Kilgrave in the Marvel TV show Jessica Jones, one of the most repugnant characters I have ever seen, as well as the smaller but memorable lip licking Barty Crouch Jr. In Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. He also hosted the BAFTA awards for the past two years, Great Britain's version of the Oscars this year, opening the ceremony singing the song 500 miles in a bespoke black jacket and kilt suit. And he was hilarious to watch playing a version of himself in the streaming comedy staged with Michael Sheehan. One of the few good things to come out of the COVID pandemic. David Tennant also has a podcast called David Tennant does a podcast with where you fill in the name of the guest from that episode. Often an actor he has worked with. A third season of the podcast released this year. And while we might have said, hey, David Tennant, stay in your lane, there's enough long format interview shows out there, instead we decided that this would be a good opportunity to have him on our long format interview show to ask him about his life and career. So, David Tennant, welcome to FRESH air.

[David Tennant]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Sam Brigger]

You did two seasons of your podcast ending in 2020, but then you came back last month with the third season. Why did you come back now?

[David Tennant]

There was a certain sense of there were a few people I had either meant to interview or had sort of got to know in the interim. And I thought I would have naturally interviewed them when I'd done this podcast before. So maybe now is an opportunity to, to kind of scoop them up. It really, as has always been the case with the podcast, it's something I've done. I don't mean to minimize it, but it's almost been a hobby, like a sideline, like a sort of thing I've done for pleasure when I've had a moment. It's never been my principal job. So it was just a sort of moment of opportunity.

[Sam Brigger]

When you go into these interviews, like, do you have a specific agenda? Like, are you when you're like, oh, Olivia Colman, I've always wanted to know this about her. Or do you sometimes think about things in your own career which have puzzled you? That gives you an opportunity to ask someone else who does the same work the question.

[David Tennant]

Yeah, there's certainly, there's definitely a bit of that, a bit of there are some slightly odd things about being in this profession and what it sort of does to your Life outside the work. That is the sort of bit you don't get trained for at a drama school. You know, One of the sort of side effects of being successful as an actor, I suppose, is that you lose an element of anonymity. And I found that personally quite challenging when it happened to me. So I'm always quite intrigued to know how others have dealt with that or are dealing with that, or kind of characterize what that does to them and the people around them. But it's a mixture of things. You're also just. Again, if it's someone you know, you're often interested in sort of celebrating them and wanting the world to know them and understand what's likable about them, because there's a sort of delight in celebrating that to the public somehow. So it's always. Yes, it's always a mixture of impulses.

[Sam Brigger]

I think, speaking about coping with being a celebrity, you tell a story that someone asked you for an autograph while you were naked and in a shower at a gym.

[David Tennant]

Yeah, absolutely, yes. And moments like that are quite peculiar. Yes, I'd say so, yes. Perhaps that's stating the obvious, but just it's quite. I'm always quite intrigued to know if other people have had similar experiences and how they. Or how they would have dealt with experiences like that, because I think it's quite. It's a bit of a sort of club that you can't really expect any sort of sympathy for, because it's a very privileged position to be in. But it's, you know, it's a complicated one. It's one I struggle with, because you're also very aware, if someone wants to have a moment's interaction with you, that they're sort of. That moment, for them is representing all the work you might have done that has meant something to them. So that's a hugely. It's quite a precious moment for someone else. Whereas you might be just thinking, I'm going to be late for this appointment. That.

[Sam Brigger]

Or you're having a bad day or something.

[David Tennant]

Oh, you're having a bad day. Yeah. And of course, that you're not really going to make the situation better by explaining to someone why this is an inappropriate moment if. If they're not seeing that for themselves. I draw you back to the moment in the shower. That man obviously didn't understand why I was finding this peculiar and odd. So it became simpler to sort of carve a signature into what was the mulch of the piece of paper that he was now holding under a shower and sort of. He said, thank you very much, and went on his way.

[Sam Brigger]

So, David, you grew up outside of Glasgow in Paisley. Your father was a Presbyterian minister. So do you remember your father's sermons? Were they fiery or more contemplative?

[David Tennant]

Oh, he could get quite fiery, yes. He was quite a performer, might add. There was definitely a bit of an old ham about him. And he. Yes, I wasn't firing brimstone so much, but although he could get there, he had a. You know, he could get a little bit. He. He would thump the pulpit now and again, but. But no, he was. He was definitely a performer and he was. He was a very good preacher, actually. People would ask him to come and guest preach in various places. He was. I think he was very well thought of and he was very loved. He was a very. He was a very good minister. His congregation liked him and he was kind and he was patient and all the things that I guess you have to be in that job. But he was a good preacher.

[Sam Brigger]

Yeah, well, he must have been, because for a year he served as the Moderator of the General assembly of the Church of Scotland, which is basically the highest position in the church.

[David Tennant]

The highest position, but on a revolving yearly basis, because the Church of Scotland is built on the idea that there should be no hierarchy. So you take a turn and you step back again.

[Sam Brigger]

He also had a TV show called that's the Spirit that he co hosted. What was that show like? Did you ever go to the set?

[David Tennant]

I did, actually, yes. It was on Scottish television, but, yes, he did. On a Sunday afternoon in Scotland, you could see my dad. And that's the Spirit. It was a sort of religious magazine program. So he would go and meet a community project. He would do a little bit to camera where he gave a little message for the day. He'd do interviews with people who were doing interesting or important things in the world of divinity or outreach or whatever it was. But, yeah, he did that for quite a few years. And I remember sitting off camera and watching it happen a couple of times.

[Sam Brigger]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing the story, but it's been told many times, so.

[David Tennant]

Oh. Oh, come on. What's this?

[Sam Brigger]

Well, at the age of three, you told your family that you wanted to be an actor because you wanted to play Doctor who.

[David Tennant]

Which is the bit you find most implausible about that story? Because I have thoughts.

[Sam Brigger]

Well, first of all, just the wish fulfillment that you were able to achieve in your adulthood playing one of the most famous Doctor who's. But also, did you, at the age of Three understand that Doctor who was an actor. Did you want to act as Doctor who? Did you want to be Doctor who?

[David Tennant]

This is the bit that now, having had my own children, I can think three. Really? Could I have been three? Because it does feel like quite a complicated thought process, doesn't it? But. But I. I can date it because I. You know, this was in the times before home video recorders, so I know that I watched John Pertwee turn into Tom Baker on Doctor who, and I can date it. And it's 1974, so I was 3 years old. Maybe they repeated it like a year later. Cause sometimes they did that, so maybe I was four. But I know that it was then, and I know that that led to a conversation with my parents. And you're absolutely right that it was a conversation where I learned what the difference between a character in a television program and an actor was. But in that moment, I understood what that concept was and decided that's what I wanted to do. So despite how implausible it seems, I know that it's true.

[Sam Brigger]

Do you remember what was so captivating about the show to you?

[David Tennant]

Something about that show and the combination of elements. Certainly that central character always fascinated me. I just thought he was brilliant. I just thought he was cool, he was clever. He wasn't. He sort of. He was dressed in sort of brilliant, cool, mad clothes, but he looked like a normal human. And I think that was quite important to me. As a fairly geeky young child, I didn't imagine I could ever aspire to be Superman or the Incredible Hulk or. You know, I was sort of quite weedy, and I wore glasses and I had a terrible haircut. So all those things still felt possible in the world of the Doctor, there was something about that character that I could be. I also loved. It's a brilliantly constructed show in that you don't know where they're gonna land. Each time. Every time that the TARDIS lands, where is it? What's the mystery? There's a whole new set of characters to get. There's a whole. And the monsters. What's the monster gonna be this week? What's gonna come around that corner? And how scary is it gonna be? And what a thrill all that was. So it was. No, I was obsessional about it.

[Sam Brigger]

So where I grew up, you couldn't just get Doctor who on the 13 channels that we had. But I don't know if televisions were the same.

[David Tennant]

Well, you see 13 channels, like you were starved. I mean, in school, three channels.

[Sam Brigger]

We had three but there was this other dial where you could. It was kind of like a radio dial where you could dial in like farther television stations. And sometimes I could dial in like the out of state public television show that did have Doctor who. And the things that I remember about it was first that it was really scary, like the monsters were scary and the theme music terrified me. But then the thing that I also noticed was like sometimes I would notice how cheaply made the show was, like, why are all these sci fi futuristic characters wearing clothes that look like they were borrowed from like Masterpiece Theater? And then in all of these science fiction or futuristic sets, there are always these drapes everywhere, like blocking off sections of the stage. I don't know. So those were my early memories of it.

[David Tennant]

Listen, all of those memories are very accurate, I think. I don't think there's anything wrong with any of those observations you make. And I think I was aware of all that too. But I still either forgave it or reveled in it, its shortcomings because actually the writing, they were incredibly well written. And those central performances. I remember Tom Baker, who played the Doctor through most of my early childhood. It was a really magnificent performance. He was a properly charismatic, mercurial, funny, funny, heroic. It was a brilliant performance. As a piece of sort of mad acting, it was a wonder to behold. And that just scooped me up. How thrilling that you tuned in, you tuned your TV set to get so slightly illicit channels. It must have felt like you discovered wonderful secrets.

[Sam Brigger]

It did feel that way, definitely, yeah. Well, let's hear you from Doctor who. This is from your first big scene. You've just been regenerated. This would happen as sort of like the character would be reincarnated, which was a convenient way to have new actors play this role. And so you're reintroducing yourself to your traveling companion, played by Billy Piper and some other characters. And you're also surrounded by some pretty tough looking aliens. Let's hear this.

[David Tennant]

Now, first things first, be honest. How do I look? Um, different. Good different or bad different?

[Jason Isbell]

Just different.

[David Tennant]

Am I ginger? No, you just sort of brown. I wanted to be ginger. I've never been ginger. And you roast Tyler fellow. Good you were. You gave up on me. Oh, that's rude. That's all, man. I am now rude. Rude and not ginger.

[David Tennant's Segment]

If I might interrupt?

[David Tennant]

Yes, sorry, I know, big fellow.

[Terry Gross]

Who exactly are you?

[David Tennant]

Well, that's the question.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

I demand to know who you are.

[Jason Isbell]

I don't know.

[Jason Isbell's Song]

See, that's the thing.

[David Tennant]

I'm a doctor. But beyond that, I just don't know. I literally do not know who I am. It's all untested. Am I funny? Am I sarcastic? Sexy? Right. All misery, life and soul. Brian. Left handed. A gambler, a fighter, a coward, a traitor, a liar, a nervous wreck. I mean, judging by the evidence, I've certainly got a goal.

[Sam Brigger]

That's our guest, David Tennant as Doctor who in his first big scene. So you're asking, who am I there? One of the things that I really liked about your portrayal of the Doctor was this unbridled enthusiasm that you brought to the character. But here you are at this point, you've been classically trained, you went to the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance and now you're playing this important British pop figure. How did all of the things that you had learned and the ways that you've trained help you sort of embody this role?

[David Tennant]

That's a very good question. I don't know. I mean, it's one of those parts that has a lot of cultural baggage about it, but it also, the whole, the idea of regeneration, where one actor takes over from the, from the next, you, you're given a bit of a blank sheet. The Doctor has certain immovable truths about them, but you're not expected to do what the last one did. You're expected to bring your own version of it. You just have to find yourself in it, I suppose. You just have to kind of chuck yourself at it and see what you get. And of course, it was written by Russell T. Davis, who's one of the great television writers of our time, and wrote it with sort of a bit like himself. I mean, Russell has a wonderful gift of the gab about him. He can talk and he's funny and he's quick and he's probably the cleverest person in most rooms and that's kind of how he writes the Doctor. So if you just kind of look to plug into that energy, filter it through yourself and hope that that produces something that's kind of endearing and not smug and annoying. Probably some people did find it smug and annoying, but hopefully most people found it charming and funny. I think it's important that the Doctor is funny because he uses wit to undermine some of those kind of worst creatures that the universe can throw at him. That's part of what's glorious about that character, is that he can be funny in times of crisis and that's his cool. He's very uncool in many ways, but he's got that swagger, that ability to undermine everything with a gag or with a twinkle. So I didn't ponder all that. It's quite interesting listening back to that through headphones now. It feels quite green and quite squeaky to me.

[Sam Brigger]

Well, it's pretty remarkable how much the show has given you. Again, like it's sort of this great wish fulfillment. You also met your wife Jordan on the show. She actually played your daughter in an episode.

[David Tennant's Segment]

Yes.

[David Tennant]

But it's listen, time is time is very relative when you're a Time Lord. And she's she's a little bit younger than me. She's not that much younger than me.

[Sam Brigger]

She's an adult character in the.

[David Tennant]

She's an adult character. Yes, exactly.

[Sam Brigger]

And George's father, your father in law, was a different incarnation of Doctor who, wasn't.

[David Tennant]

That's right. Yeah. He was number five. I mean, I watched him as a kid. He became the Doctor when I was about 11. So he was absolutely someone that I drew pictures of in sketchbooks. Yeah. That has just added to how odd the whole thing is that I've ended up being part of the show that I grew up obsessed with.

[Sam Brigger]

Well, David Tennant, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on FRESH air.

[David Tennant]

Thanks for having me. It's been an absolute delight.

[Sam Brigger]

David Tennant's podcast called David Tennant Does a Podcast with is now in its third season. Fresh AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley, I'm Sam Brigger.

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