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- [00:00]
Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [00:18]
Terry Gross
From whyy in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend. Today, Jesse Eisenberg talks about writing, directing and starring in the film A Real Pain. Eisenberg and Kieran Kolkin play cousins who go to Poland on a Jewish heritage tour. One of the stops is the Majdanek death Camp. We'll talk about the questions the film.
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Jesse Eisenberg
Raises, like what is real pain? Is my character's manageable, medicated OCD pain valid? Or is the only pain that's valid and should be kind of acknowledged is the pain of war and of kind of mass genocide and, you know, mass trauma?
- [00:55]
Terry Gross
Also, we hear from Pamela Anderson in the new film the Last Showgirl. She stars as a veteran Vegas dancer who must face the end of her legendary show. Anderson became a pop culture phenomenon in the late 80s in part because of her role on the series Baywatch. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.
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Charles Schwab
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Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree and instead enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
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Charles Schwab
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- [02:47]
Terry Gross
Terry this is FRESH Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross.
- [02:50]
Tanya Mosley
My guest, Jesse Eisenberg wrote, directed and stars in the film A Real Pain. Oscar predictors expect the film to be nominated for multiple Academy Awards. Eisenberg had his first major film role in 2002's Roger Dodger when he was still in high school. Three years later, when he was 21, he was a star of the film the Squid and the Whale. He played Mark Zuckerberg in the Social Network about the early days of Facebook. He played the journalist interviewing writer David Foster Wallace in the end of the tour, he starred in the 2022 miniseries Fleischman is in Trouble. In A Real Pain, he plays a husband and father who goes on a Jewish heritage tour in Poland with his cousin, played by Kieran Kulkin, who was like a brother when they were growing up. The trip is funded by their beloved, recently deceased grandmother who who left money in her will for the trip so that they could see the home she fled when the Nazis were in power. Each cousin is dealing with mental health issues which are exacerbated by the trip. Eisenberg's character is introverted and takes meds for his ocd. He's constantly hurt and embarrassed by his cousin's inappropriate behavior. Culkin's character is dealing with depression, but when around other people, he becomes extroverted, manic in ways that can be seen as charismatic or incredibly annoying and intrusive. Both extremes are intensified by the disconnect Culkin's character experiences between the first class train car the tour travels on and the cattle cars that brought Jews to their death. He's also troubled by the disconnect between the nice restaurants the tour takes them to, while at the same time the death camp Majdanek is on the tour. Our critic John Powers wrote, quote, with the lightest of touches. Eisenberg's stunning film got me thinking about the different ways we deal with suffering, both past and present. Should we simply get on with life, as David Eisenberg's character seems to, or should we take that pain into ourselves, as does Culkin's character, Benji? Or is there a way to somehow do both? Unquote? It's worth mentioning that the film also has comic touches. Jesse Eisenberg, welcome to FRESH Air. And congratulations on the film.
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Jesse Eisenberg
Thank you so much. What an honor to be on your show.
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Tanya Mosley
Oh, it's a pleasure to have you. So the movie is based in part in a movie you were making A kind of road movie set in Mongolia. And it wasn't working for you.
- [05:22]
Jesse Eisenberg
That's right.
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Tanya Mosley
And then you saw an ad advertising like a Holocaust tour, a Jewish heritage tour, and. And it said lunch included. And you thought, okay, this is something what intrigued you about that, especially the lunch included part.
- [05:38]
Jesse Eisenberg
Well, yeah, I mean, actually it was even more explicit than what you mentioned. It said Auschwitz tours with lunch. Right. So I was writing this movie that took place in Mongolia. It was about similar kind of characters, David and Benji, the character, you know, characters Kieran and I play in this movie. But it was set in Mongolia and it was just not going well until. And then ad popped up online for Auschwitz tours with lunch. And I just thought, you know, well, first, like, I must be the target demographic for that advertisement. But also, like, it was just so profound in its simplicity. It spoke to so many awkward modern things, which is just like, you know, we want to tour sites of horror and, you know, kind of wonder, like, why do we, why do we want to do that? What are we doing when we're doing that? And then also we want to maintain the creature comforts that we have in our lives. So that's the with lunch part. And so, you know, I clicked on the ad and it took me to a site for, you know, what you would imagine, English speaking heritage tour of Poland that culminates at Auschwitz. And it was just so interesting. Just like posed all these interesting philosophical questions like, you know, why do we do tragedy tourism? And why don't we try to connect to this kind of history in a way that feels less, you know, comfortable?
- [06:53]
Tanya Mosley
Well, another question the movie raises is, like, what is real pain? Like, what is suffering? Like, if you're suffering from, you know, emotional or mental health issues, and I know you have issues of your own, the character has ocd. I don't know if that's an issue you have to contend with. But if you have your own internal suffering, and let's face it, people take their lives because of that internal suffering. Like, you don't even have to have somebody kill you. You end your own life because the suffering is so bad. But you haven't been in Auschwitz suffering there. But so is your suffering any less important? Does that count as pain?
- [07:33]
Jesse Eisenberg
Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, one of the kind of ironies with Ciaran's character in the movie. You know, as you said, he kind of plays this incredibly charming and manic guy, but he also just is privately suffering from severe depression. I mean, severe, like, you know, wondering if he wants to go on with his life. And one of the dramatic ironies in the movie is that our grandmother survived, as I say in the movie, by a thousand miracles. You know. You know, the way my family survived the war. They were, you know, hidden in basements with their teachers. You know, crazy stories, as, you know, from, you know, anybody who survived the Holocaust, there's usually a story that's, you know, incredibly shocking and more shocking than the last one you heard. So, like, there's this irony where we are the products of a thousand miracles, and yet Kieran's character doesn't even know if he wants to live. And what is that? Why do we walk around with all this modern pain when our lives are materially comfortable after being the products of incredible stories of survival? And it's something I think about all the time because I'm like, you know, a depressed person or whatever. And I walk around, and I have a materially nice life. And I walk around kind of like feeling bad for myself, being miserable over minor things. And yet I'm also incredibly fascinated by my family's history in Poland and learning about the suffering. And I don't know how to reconcile those two things of feeling bad about my very fortunate life and also understanding the horrors of my family's past or the horrors of people around the world today. And because I can't reconcile those two things, I was trying to sort out that in the movie, which is why the title A Real Pain. It's like, what is asking the audience that question? What is real pain? Is my character's manageable, medicated, OCD pain valid? Is Kieran's pain valid? Even though, you know, he's experiencing, you know, the worst of what a kind of psyche can experience, but at the same time, he is in a comfortable life. No one is trying to kill him? Or is the only pain that's valid and should be kind of acknowledged is the pain of war and of kind of mass genocide and mass trauma?
- [09:40]
Tanya Mosley
Okay, so you are a writer and director and actor, and you were not only in Majdanek, the death camp in Poland, you were filming there, because you do have a scene there, and it's a very emotionally moving scene. So I'd like to hear what it was like for you to not only have lunch and dinner while visiting my neck, you were filming there. You were taking this kind of, like, holy place and setting up your lights and your cameras and your actors. How did you go about it in the most respectful way that you could think of while also making a movie?
- [10:21]
Jesse Eisenberg
So, like, you know, when I was writing the movie. I had set a scene at Majdanek. That's the camp that was like, you know, it's really five minutes away from where I had family. And as soon as I finished the script, I just assumed that we'd be able to, you know, film there, because it was in the script until we got Polish producers on board who told me that they read the script and they think everything is doable, but that it's going to cost a million dollars to build Majdanek. I was like, what do you mean, a million dollars? It's already there. She said, well, no, you can't film, you know, a narrative movie, you know, at a conc. These are hallowed grounds. And, you know, they get asked every day to be turned into, you know, essentially, you know, war sets, you know, that they take place in 1942 and have extras running around in Nazi uniforms. And, like, they just don't. Of course, they're not going to allow that at this kind of site, which is a cemetery, which is a site of, you know, mass horror. And so over the course of, like, the next eight months before we made the movie, I just tried to reach out in any way possible to this concentration camp, Majdanek, to explain what I wanted to do, which was I wanted to film a scene of a modern tour group going through this place, you know, in an attempt to have it be part of the movie, but also to show audiences what this place is. And my kind of plea to them was that I want to do the same thing you're doing. You exist as a museum to show people today what happened on this site. And I'm trying to do the same thing through my movie. And so once we kind of were able to, you know, speak to the people who work there, who are these unbelievably brilliant young academics. These are not like state apparatchiks who are running this place. These are like young academics who could be doing anything with their lives and are spending it every day at a concentration camp to preserve the memory of Jewish history. And so once we were able to be in touch with them, they understood what my motivation was and how respectful we were going to be, how the scenes would be shot. We went over every word in the script. We went over every angle that we wanted to film, and it took a long time, but they agreed to it. And we had two cameras, and we basically set up the shots in the most, like, you know, un kind of fettered way we would. You know, it was written in the script even that These scenes will be shot very simply. There will be no music. The actors will walk in and out of the rooms. That's how I wrote it in the script. And that's what we filmed. We set up the shot. The actors walked in. I asked them to not block each other so we could see everybody's, you know, face or whatever. And they experienced what they experienced looking at the shoes or looking at a gas chamber, etc. These places of horror. And then they exited the room. And so it was done with, like, the absolute, utmost simplicity and care and reverence.
- [13:02]
Tanya Mosley
And also, you were shooting it as a museum. You weren't shooting it trying to pretend that it was still a death camp.
- [13:09]
Jesse Eisenberg
That's exactly it. So, you know, this place, Majdanek, is in Lublin. So it's in the southeast of the country. Lublin is this really bustling, gorgeous, vibrant college town. And so. And five minutes away from this, again, gorgeous, bustling, you know, cosmopolitan college town is this death camp. And when I say five minutes, that's not hyperbole. Like, you drive five minutes down the road and you are in this death camp. And so it's not a real known one. But what makes Majdanek really interesting, as opposed to, like, Auschwitz, is that it's so far east that the Russians liberated the camp before the Nazis could really destroy it. So the other camps, as you go further west in Europe, were destroyed by the Nazis as the Soviets or the Americans liberated the camps. But this one, as we say in the movie, is kind of well preserved, for lack of a better phrase. It looks like it was liberated that.
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Tanya Mosley
Morning you became a Polish citizen. So what moved you to do that?
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Jesse Eisenberg
Yeah, so, like, I imagine you're probably familiar with, like, the reputation that Poland has amongst, like, kind of American Jews, which is that, you know, I grew up hearing they're anti Semitic, and, you know, they're, you know, all the death camps were there, you know, but my experience there was so different. My experience there was really kind of revelatory in the following way. We were going to all these sites of Jewish history, of Jewish, you know, horror. And all the people that I met who were working there were, like, you know, 90% non Jews, people who had spent their lives doing far more to memorialize my family's history than I or anybody in my family is doing. And I just had this great feeling of indebtedness to the Poles who have done a really good job of preserving a lot of this history. I know they're criticized in various ways, and the government's criticized in various ways. But like, they're like the Germans built these camps in Poland and the Poles are still left with these things, you know, and they're really well done to preserve Jewish history there. And I just felt this kind of like just open hearted indebtedness to that.
- [15:18]
Terry Gross
My guest is Jesse Eisenberg. He wrote, directed and stars with Kieran Culkin in the film A Real Pain. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.
- [15:31]
Capella University
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- [16:34]
Tanya Mosley
A clip from A Real Pain. And this is a scene that not only shows the kind of emotional turbulence that the Kieran Culkin character is going through. He plays your cousin, and he's the one who is very prone to severe depression, but he also gets kind of manic when he's around people. And I don't know if you would describe him as bipolar, but those are the two extremes of character that he goes through. So in this scene, everyone on this small tour is at a restaurant and your character is talking about the grandmother and how she survived the Nazis through a thousand miracles. So before we hear the scene, I just want to say you're going to hear a couple of very loud burps during this scene. And that is the Kieran Culkin character who will be doing the burping. Here's the scene.
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Jesse Eisenberg
You know, Grandma never pitied herself. In fact, she always told me she was grateful for her struggle. Well, that's just it.
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Pamela Anderson
What she endured, that gave her hope, right?
- [17:44]
Jesse Eisenberg
Yes. In fact, she used to tell me that, like, you know, first generation immigrants work some, like, menial job. You know, they drive cabs, they deliver food. Second generation, they go to good schools, and they become, like, you know, a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. And the third generation lives in their mother's basement and smokes pot all day. I mean, she said that. I think she was, like, just speaking generally about, like, the immigrant experience.
- [18:10]
Tanya Mosley
I lived in my mom's basement.
- [18:11]
Jesse Eisenberg
She was just talking about immigrants. Okay. That's all. Yeah. I got to pee.
- [18:28]
Jamie Lee Curtis
I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'll get that.
- [18:29]
Tanya Mosley
Don't worry.
- [18:32]
Jesse Eisenberg
Pee.
- [18:32]
Tanya Mosley
Pee time. So that's an example of how really inappropriate Karen Culkin, who plays your cousin, can be. Tell us why you wanted to create that difference. Cause this is another really important dynamic in the film. Like, you've both had a very similar upbringing. You lived close to each other when you were children. You were like brothers. You were born three weeks apart or three months apart. I forget which. But now, like, you're living in separate cities in New York. You're in New York City, he's in Binghamton, and you've gone in different directions. He seems, like, totally rootless. And you have a good job. You're married, you have a child, you have a nice home. And he's lived in his mother's basement. We don't know if he's still there or where he is or if he has any home at all. So why did you want to create that wide range, that big dynamic of difference between the two cousins?
- [19:33]
Jesse Eisenberg
I didn't have a calculated reason, but I had just had written these two characters kind of before, just kind of trying to figure out what's behind the most charismatic person in the room. What happens to them when they go home? Why are they acting that way? These are people that I've feel very envious of. You know, the people who can light up a room. I am a performer, and I have my own amount of extroversion, but, like, you know, I kind of, like, just sit in awe and envy of people who can, like, walk into a room and immediately, you know, light it up. And so I was trying to kind of explore what's behind somebody like that, because I envy them. But I also know there's something maybe happening there that I wouldn't want. I wouldn't want to trade.
- [20:19]
Tanya Mosley
So your character in the film is dealing with ocd, and he's medicated for it. So we don't see a lot of ocd, but we do see that you live a very structured life in the film and that Karen Culkin's character is a rule breaker. So I'd like to talk with you, if you're willing about, like, your own inner issues.
- [20:40]
Jesse Eisenberg
Sure, sure, sure.
- [20:41]
Tanya Mosley
So is OCD a thing for you or is it something different?
- [20:46]
Jesse Eisenberg
Yeah, I mean, it's probably, you know, God, I don't know what my actual official diagnosis is on my insurance forms. But, yeah, it's like, you know, I have ocd, depression, anxiety, that kind of stuff. And it change and is, like, emphasized based on what's happening in my life, you know. But as I talk about in the movie, I feel my pain is unexceptional.
- [21:06]
Tanya Mosley
Do you feel like something like OCD ever works in your favor? Like, if you're producing a movie or directing a movie, there are so many details that you have to take care of and so much you have to pay attention to. And I was thinking that maybe. And I might be misdiagnosing the symptoms of ocd. That may be that your brain would be wired in such a way you would have almost a need to obsess on details.
- [21:36]
Jesse Eisenberg
Yeah, I guess so. But, you know, one of the other things about, like, being in the arts is learning to be flexible and learning to feel like Kieran Culkin in this movie didn't want to stand on any marks. Which means, you know, when you're setting up a shot in a movie, the actor has to stand on their mark to deliver their lines. This is like, kind of just standard practice. Kieran would never stand on a mark because he didn't know what he was going to do or where he was going to walk or what he was going to be performing like. And so for me, if I had, you know, some kind of strict compulsion to wanting the actors to all do my thing, the movie wouldn't be good because it would be stifling our, you know, leading character, Kieran. And so learning to be flexible is helpful. And in the arts, that's really kind of paramount, you know, because you want the most creative, interesting idea to win. So when I'm writing the script, I have, I guess you could call it some kind of compulsion to make sure everything is exactly what I want it to be. But I've learned this is my second movie as a director, but I've also written and performed in several plays that being flexible or being open to being flexible at least, is probably the best way to get the best version of something.
- [22:36]
Tanya Mosley
Is when Kieran Culkin refuses to stand on his mark. Does part of you go into a panic?
- [22:42]
Jesse Eisenberg
Yeah, like the first. The first few days, yeah. He told me, like, that's not what I want to do. I Don't want to get notes from you. I don't want to rehearse or talk about the scenes. I was just panicked that he wasn't going to know his lines because he speaks so quickly in the movie and it has to go quick. Like the movie wouldn't work if he's kind of stumbly with his dialogue. So I was just worried he wouldn't know his lines. But he's some kind of genius because he would come to set in the morning and he would say, what scene are we shooting today? Which is like not the question you want to hear from your main actor. And I would say it's the five page scene on the train. You have two monologues that have to be delivered at lightning speed. And he goes, oh, God, I remember that scene. It was so funny. Can I see the script? I'm like, oh, my goodness. So I show him the script. He looks at it. Terry, I'm totally. I'm being completely serious. He looks at the script for like a minute and he's word perfect. He just has some kind of weird memory bank where he's able to learn lines really, really quickly and then forget about them the next day. So he was always great. And, you know, for me, you know, trying to direct him, it just felt like the movie's gonna be great if I let him kind of run around, you know, I don't like dialogue improvisation, but if I can let him just be free and spontaneous, the movie will really soar. And the movie benefits from that because the movie really is kind of like my perspective on my cousin. And it really works nicely when he is as hard to grasp for the audience as he is for me.
- [24:10]
Tanya Mosley
It has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
- [24:13]
Jesse Eisenberg
Thanks. What a privilege to speak to you finally. Thank you.
- [24:16]
Tanya Mosley
I'm so glad we did.
- [24:18]
Terry Gross
Jesse Eisenberg wrote, directed and stars in the film A Real Pain. It's streaming on several platforms. Our co host Tanya Mosley has our next interview. Here's Tanya to introduce it.
- [24:36]
Pamela Anderson
My guest today is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new film the Last Showgirl, where she plays Shelley, a veteran performer from Las Vegas who learns that her show is shutting down after a 30 year run. At 57, Shelley must grapple with the sacrifices she's made in her personal life for the benefit of her career, including her relationship with her daughter, played by Billie Lourd. The Last Showgirl was directed by Giacopola and also stars Jamie Lee Curtis, who is almost unrecognizable As a former showgirl and Shelley's best friend, Pamela Anderson became a pop culture phenomenon in the 1980s and 90s. The blockbuster television series Baywatch made her a household name, and the show itself was at one time the most watched series in the world, with over a billion viewers each week, making Anderson the highest paid actress on television at the time. International distributors of the show even enacted a Pamela clause in their contracts, agreeing to purchase only episodes that she was in. But throughout the 2000s, Anderson struggled to make a name for herself outside of that 90s Persona, until the opportunity for reinvention came with her Broadway debut in 2022 as Roxie Hart in Chicago and the Netflix documentary A Love Story, which is a tender and intimate portrait of her life produced by her son, Brandon. Pamela Anderson, welcome to FRESH air. It is such a pleasure to have you here.
- [26:06]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, thank you. It's lovely to be here.
- [26:09]
Pamela Anderson
You know, Pamela, I'm so fascinated by your journey over the last few years, because before this role in the Last Showgirl was presented to you, I read that you had all but moved on from Hollywood. You actually looked at this script, though, and you said, I'm the only one that can do this. What was it about this script that made you just know?
- [26:30]
Jamie Lee Curtis
I mean, it was a beautiful story. It had a wonderful character to play. And I just related on many levels. You know, there's many parallels between us, but I also felt like that was a great jumping off point that I could take this opportunity and really transition, transform into this woman. And I was craving to do something like this. I really needed to sink my teeth into something. And it came at the right time. And I realized if I had any other life, I couldn't have played Shelly as I did. And it all made sense. I had somewhere to put all my life experience in one way or another. It's in there.
- [27:10]
Pamela Anderson
Yeah, I mean, we're gonna talk about those parallels. But your character Shelley is part of this Vegas show called laraz, which actually is based on this real show that was in Vegas for many decades called Jubilee. How would you describe that show?
- [27:27]
Jamie Lee Curtis
I mean, I've met with the Jubilee dancers, and they took so much pride in their art form. I love the nostalgia that Shelley always comes back to that. It's about France. You know, it's Lido culture. It's this, you know, it's important. It's, you know, they were treated like movie stars. They are the icon of Las Vegas, even though it doesn't. They don't really exist anymore. It was sad to know that there were 85 women on stage and 45 crew members and about 15 people in the audience at the very end, that it was just something that died out and lost to a new culture of, you know, like the dirty circus. She likes to say that it took more to entertain. And so these art forms die out. And it's about the people that have given their lives to these art forms that are suffering and coming to a crossroads and having to reinvent themselves. And that really resonated with me. I think it's a story about second chances and about, you know, the mother daughter story. And trying to find a way to parent as a single mother in an entertainment industry, of course, is another part that I could really relate to and was really interested in dealing with in a film. In hindsight, there's so much to this film that I felt was, you know, cathartic in some ways.
- [28:51]
Pamela Anderson
Yeah. You mentioned you met with those original showgirls. What did they teach you about their experiences? What were some of the stories that they shared with you that really stuck with you as you embodied this character?
- [29:04]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, there was a lot of joy, a lot of pride, and, you know, there's the showgirl walk. You know, the showgirls are not burlesque dancers. They're very far from it. They told me stories of how they weren't allowed to. To mingle in the casinos after their performances, that they were to go home, and that they were very well protected by people that looked after them. And there was a lot of rules just to keep them safe and that, you know, they went on to be, you know, in real estate or dance instructors or insurance salesmen. Saleswomen or. It was just very. I wanted to know what happened after. And a lot of them got married and reconnected with their children. You know, they had children while they were working. And like that scene with Billy, I always say we are going to have to beg forgiveness to our adult children, all of us, that there's just no perfect way to do it and no perfect way to be a parent. And when our adult children, we can actually sit down with them and talk to them about their experience, I think that's a really important conversation. And it doesn't, you know, always go well for either party, but it's a start. And I think it's something anybody can relate to in any business.
- [30:20]
Pamela Anderson
You mentioned how there are parallels to your life. Your life is not exact to this character, but the defining of who you really are is something you've had to do because for so long you were enshrined in the 90s, the playboy, the Baywatch, Pamela. So much so that this person who was kind of representing you, I guess they were an agent and didn't even bother to show you the script. What's the story behind that?
- [30:46]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Yeah, I mean, that probably was about money. I mean, I didn't do this project for money. I did it for the experience. And, yes, there's. I feel like when you're a part of pop culture, it's a blessing, but it's also a little bit of a deficit. You have to prove to people, first of all, that you're human, and then that you're capable of. Of doing more and. And being in this industry. And, you know, I've taken it upon myself to completely peel it back. I want people to see me as a person and then as an actress. And all my life experience was just research. It was boot camp. So I was learning as I went. So I, I, you know, people don't realize that, you know, when I was shooting Playboy covers, I was also at Samuel French, sitting on the ground and read Tennessee Williams and Eugene O'Neal and Sam Shepard plays, wondering, how do I get from here to here? And it wasn't that I was ambitious. I was just very curious about life and this industry, and I was taking acting lessons and. And I worked with an incredible acting teacher, Ivana Chubbuck, who I worked with for a very long time. But, you know, really, I had nowhere to put it, except for Broadway, when I played Roxy in Chicago and this character in this film and the other two films that I've done this year, too. But I feel like I'm on the right track. And it's hard because it feels like two steps forward, one step back. I remember just doing this last film with Kareem Anuz, this film called Rosebush Pruning. And I was doing a scene where I was jumping into a swimming pool, and I said, this is it. I'm jumping into the pool. I'm letting all of my life go. Everything that has happened in the past is gone. And he stopped me and he said, no, bring it with you, baby. And I was like, yes, I'm gonna bring it with me. I just got chills from head to toe. I said, that's so much easier. And it's. You're right. I'm not ashamed of my life. I, of course, in hindsight, might have done things differently, but I needed the life experience to teach me that. And I don't come from a family of actors or artists or cooks or anything. I really had no references and no guidance. So this has been wild Westing it up till now.
- [33:01]
Terry Gross
We're listening to Tanya Mosley's interview with Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new movie the Last Showgirl, which is directed by Gia Coppola. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [33:15]
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- [34:01]
Charles Schwab
From the News Literacy Project. Young people are navigating the most complex information landscape in history. Social media feeds mixed rumors, memes and ads in with news, opinion and entertainment. Teens may not know how to separate fact from fiction. News literacy education can help find out how@newsliteracyweek.org Pamela I want to talk a.
- [34:24]
Pamela Anderson
Little bit more about this role because the director Gia Coppola, said she knew you were the one for the role after watching you in this documentary about your life for Netflix that your son Brandon produced. And we are watching your character grappling with the ramifications of her decision to put her career above everything else, including her relationship with her daughter Hannah, which is played by Billie Lourd. Your character in this movie did not raise her daughter full time because the demands of her work was the priority. As a working mother, I think about my kids all the time in the future, how they will view the decisions that I make now that will impact the relationship that we have when we're adults. And so what is so moving for me about your story, Pamela, is that your son Brandon not only made sure that we saw this tender and more expansive view of who you were, but he also was instrumental in making certain that you received this script that Giacoppola had thought you were perfect for your son is part of your comeback.
- [35:34]
Jamie Lee Curtis
He masterminded it, him and Dylan. Dylan is Brandon's ride or die. But Brandon is a great producer and a great visionary and and they're very close in age, they're only a year and a half apart. And it has been an incredible experience to work with them as well. I never thought that would happen. That wasn't my intention. When I had kids, I didn't think they were going to grow up and, you know, and be so instrumental in my career. I would never want to take up too much of their brain power. I mean, they have their own dreams, their own businesses and their own lives. So Gia knew that I hadn't received the script because it was turned down within the hour. So she knew that I hadn't read it. And so she thought, I'm not taking no for an answer. I'll find Brandon. And that really is the way to get to me, go through Brandon.
- [36:22]
Pamela Anderson
How does it feel to know that your children see you? They seem to see the totality of who you are. It's sort of a testament to you as a mother.
- [36:33]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, in my case, I wouldn't miss a baseball game. I had them written into my contracts. Actually, when I was doing tv, I. I've always been there for them. I didn't even have a nanny. So this is kind of unheard of in this business. Not that it's unheard of elsewhere, but I mean, just to say that might sound silly, but it's. I wanted to be a hands on mom. If I was going to have kids, I wanted to raise them. So that's another big difference between Shelley and I is that I put everything aside, but I also put everything aside because I wasn't getting the roles I thought that I wanted. And I was struggling a lot in my personal life too. And my kids were everything to me. And that was really important for me to be with them and put them first. I know. I was talking to Jamie Lee Curtis and she said she's worked every single day of her children's lives and we all have our way of doing it.
- [37:32]
Pamela Anderson
The thing about the choices we make as mothers when our kids are growing up, we just don't know what the outcome will be. We just try to do the best that we can. But it must have been really hard for you to both be a mother but also deal with this level of fame that you were in the 90s. I mean, because you weren't just famous, you were tabloid famous. So that means that there were lots of stories that were out there about you that were beyond your control. How did you manage that as a mother while also shielding them from this public Persona that was you?
- [38:09]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, it was difficult, but, you know, my kids were with Me, and, and I was, you know, cooking for the neighborhood and everyone come over for spaghetti and, and I was still, you know, I was volunteering at school. Even if I just got home, you know, and I was covered in glitter, I was still the one opening the car doors and getting them into their classrooms and then catching my reflection in the mirror going, oh my goodness, you know, mascara down to my chin. Oh dear. You know, and I, I was just always there. I was always a fixture. I was always at every game. So all their family and all their friends and their nucleus of people knew that I was a very hands on mom. And I was. And that all of this circus around me was the non real part. And I tried to keep them away from it. But you know, Brandon would be pitching a baseball game and he would throw his glove down and look at the paparazzi and say, I'm trying to pitch a game here, boys, can you leave me alone? You know that the kids would get really upset. So we got through it. I wouldn't say unscathed. It took its toll. But they really understood our life and they understood their father, understood me and understood what was going on. I always thought age appropriate I should sit them down and talk to them. But of course they hear things through friends and through school and that was hard. But definitely something to draw from for the film too. My kind of very unique, close relationship to my boys who know their mom's full of, you know, flaws. I actually ad libbed that conversation on the phone in the movie where I say mothers aren't saints, that we are just doing the best we can with the tools we've been dealt. And I think about that when I think about my own mother and the things that she went through. And sometimes we expect a lot of our parents, but we're human beings and we get through it the best way we can. And if there's love there, there's. That's the most important part.
- [40:02]
Pamela Anderson
You mentioned your co star, Jamie Lee Curtis. She plays an older former showgirl who now works in the casino as a waitress. And you guys are really good friends. And Jamie actually told you that she took this role because of you. When did you learn that?
- [40:21]
Jamie Lee Curtis
At the table read. The first day I met her, she had just gotten a spray tan and she was actually changing colors before my eyes. Her tan was intensifying and her lips.
- [40:31]
Pamela Anderson
Because we should say this woman, the character has like a very, very orange tan.
- [40:36]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Yeah, A multiple spray tan over spray tan, over spray tan. And I told her, I said, I'm so sorry. I'm nervous. And she goes, oh, come on. You can't be nervous with me. And then she grabbed me by the shoulders and she looked me in the eye and she said, I did this for you. We're in this together. And I just, you know, got chills from head to toe. Any fear went out the window. And I felt like I've known her my whole life, and I still do. And she's just really an incredible champion for women. And I. She hadn't seen the documentary. She said she was happy. She didn't. She saw it after. But she didn't know much about me. She. She'd seen me and she knew. She said that I was capable of much more than I had been doing. And she's been there. She's been in different parts of her career and just kind of aching to do more. And so I didn't realize that I'd ever get the chance. So that's why this is so sweet and so precious, because it almost didn't make it to me. And then I almost didn't get to do it. And I was happy with. I thought, okay, from Baywatch to Broadway. That has a good ring to it. At least I got to be on stage, which was wonderful and scary, and I pulled it off somehow. And then this. I realized that Broadway was just the warm up for this film. And it just. I had so much experience. Even the backstage banter is very similar. And so I. It really was. I didn't know this script was coming, but I was prepared to receive it.
- [41:54]
Pamela Anderson
You seem to be surprised sometimes that you take up such big space in the public's imagination that a Jamie Lee Curtis would take a role for a chance to work with you. I've heard you talk about how you're surprised that Beyonce, who paid tribute to you, would even know who you are. What makes you genuinely surprised by the love that people have for you, knowing and understand the level of your fame?
- [42:22]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, I'm grateful. I'm grateful. I feel the love. I feel rooted for it, but this is a new feeling. That's a part of the reason I came home. I just thought, I need to peel it all back and find out who I am. What are my original thoughts? I felt like I was dressing for other people. I was, you know, playing characters in my personal life. So I thought, I'm just gonna go home and make a beautiful garden and make pickles and jams and write a cookbook. You know, I felt like I have so much to give and I have you know, I just don't know where to put it.
- [42:52]
Pamela Anderson
I'm curious about what you mean when you say that you've been playing characters in your personal life, all of your life. What do you mean by that?
- [43:03]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, since I was little. I mean, since I was. I think it was five or six years old, I realized. I said, I'm not going to recognize myself until I'm older. And I knew it would take about 50 years to get there, and here I am. But I felt like if I was going to be a rock star wife, I wanted to be the best rock star wife. Or if I was going to be, you know, a lifeguard, I wanted to put my own spin on it. I was going to my makeup artist's house at three in the morning and, you know, with a head full of rollers and false eyelashes showing up on the set, and they couldn't do anything about it. I just kind of wanted to do things a certain way and kind of directed my own life experience from fantasy to fantasy to fantasy.
- [43:46]
Pamela Anderson
Were you able to pinpoint, like, what was it about 5 years old that made you say, I'm going to present based on wherever I am and what I'm doing? Like, I'm not going to know who I am until I'm 50? That is an extraordinary thing at 5 years old to come to.
- [44:02]
Jamie Lee Curtis
I had some trauma when I was younger, and I learned how to escape myself. And that is where I learned to transform into other people, I think, you know, looking back. But I forgot who I was. And my only real moments were raising my children. And when I was writing my memoirs, I realized it's. These chapters were so colorful because I had. I'd really transformed into these characters. And at different times, I was. I felt like different people. But my first plane ride was to, you know, Los Angeles and then to the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. So it just was one thing after another. And I had this amazing, wild, you know, messy life. And that gave me a lot to pull from when I was playing this character. But other characters, I feel like my pockets are full of experience. I can access these emotions and these times in my life. Naturally, it's something that I enjoy doing, but I've been doing it since I was little. I just didn't realize this was a business and this is the way it was going to work out. So I was. I'm kind of set up for this in a way.
- [45:12]
Pamela Anderson
Did you ever feel, I'm taking us back to the 90s and, you know, while reading up on you, I'll Be honest, Pamela. I was just sick watching credible news interviewers ask you questions about your anatomy during interviews. And you handled it with such grace. How did you do that? Did you go into those interviews with kind of an armor, knowing that those were the kind of questions that were coming? Because you seemed to be so quick witted and had such an ability to be able to just deflect from the energy that was being presented to you. And I'm just thinking about you as this person who has so many ideas, but that was not something that was afforded to you to talk about in the past.
- [45:59]
Jamie Lee Curtis
You know, Suzanne Somers had a great line. She said, you can't play a dumb blonde and be a dumb blonde. So part of it was just, I think I had to have a sense of humor. But I also found ways to. If people were going to talk that way to me, I wanted to bring up something meaningful to me, like animal rights. And I found that I could share the attention with something more meaningful. And that gave me some relief to know that I could travel anywhere in the world for whatever reason, if it was Baywatch or Playboy, and I could talk about animal rights. And that's what I've been doing to this point. And this is when my sons kind of stepped in and said, mom, but we want to tell your story because we know you're capable of so much more too in your, in your career. And it's time to focus on you and your career. And you can still do favors for other people, but to focus on what you love. People always ask me, why didn't you do these movie roles? I said, well, these movie roles were not being presented to me and the relationships really were taking over my life. And I was raising two boys in a kind of a chaotic environment where I needed to be with them. And from my own experience as a child, I wanted to. I didn't want anybody to look after them other than me.
- [47:19]
Pamela Anderson
The favors that your sons were referring to were those like cameo roles and stuff like that. Cause you do have such a sense of humor, like you are in on the joke in many of the roles that you take on. I'm thinking about Borat, which I absolutely love that movie, I have to say. But your ability to make fun of yourself, right?
- [47:40]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, that's part of it. And yeah, I did a lot of favors for friends. I got to work with a lot of incredible photographers and do cameos. If it was either for even my brother's friends, you know, I just felt like, okay, they can get this movie Made if I do this little funny thing as myself. But, you know, these weren't good for me. These were good for other people. And that's what my kids were saying. You've got to stop doing that, Mom. Like, you get to be you now. You get to challenge yourself. And I've always been carrying this secret. I feel like I've known I was capable of more, but I didn't know what. And doing Broadway really excited me and really felt like, oh, you know, I have. I do have a lot to give, because if I can do that, I can do anything.
- [48:24]
Pamela Anderson
Broadway, like, theater is a very exhaustive process, not only just having to perform, but, like, it's. It's the performance physically, too. It's pretty taxing.
- [48:36]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, and it was wonderful because they wanted me to do, you know, the role full strength, not watered down. They knew I was capable of it. And so it was. I didn't know if I could sing or dance or act on stage, but I felt very comfortable. Not comfortable on stage, just free. And I felt like I was home on stage. I really loved it, even though it was so scary. You're vibrating backstage before you get out there, but when you get out there, you just feel safe. You feel like no one can hurt you out there.
- [49:05]
Pamela Anderson
The way you describe stepping out on stage in theater, it just sort of reminds me of how you've described also your very first Playboy shoot, because you've said from the very first snap of that camera, you describe yourself as feeling like you had broken free from something. It seems so counterintuitive to this shy, unsure girl that you also describe yourself as. Can you say more about that feeling you felt in front of the camera when you first experienced it?
- [49:39]
Jamie Lee Curtis
It was another feeling just like this, where I was a painfully shy girl. And I hated that about myself. I hated it. It was debilitating. It was paralyzing. And I needed to do something to break free of that. And that was why I said yes to Playboy, not thinking that I could ever. It was just a cover. It wasn't nudity or anything. This was just the COVID And then once I came to Los Angeles and did the COVID they talked me into becoming a playmate. I remember calling my mother and her going, do it. I would do it.
- [50:13]
Pamela Anderson
I said, okay, if someone asked me, I would do it. I think that's what she said.
- [50:17]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Yes, she said that. And so I did it. And I. And I was also, you know, looking after my parents. And I remember up until then, I was still, you know, giving half of My paychecks to my parents. I thought everybody did that. And so it was nice to be able to, you know, pay off some bills for all of us. And I've done that since then. I've looked after my family, and it's just what I feel is important to do.
- [50:48]
Pamela Anderson
How did Playboy even discover you?
- [50:51]
Jamie Lee Curtis
There was a few times they'd come up to me. Actually, one time I was at a bus stop and someone came up to me and asked me because I was standing next to an advertisement of myself. I was getting the bus, and there was a bus ad of me at the. At the fitness center that I used to work at the tanning salon at. They asked me to do their ads. So then I. Someone said, is that you? And I said, yes. And he goes, oh, I'm so and so from Playboy. Would you consider shooting for Playboy? And I was like, absolutely not. I would never do that. And then Marilyn Grabowski called me at my house because my number was listed, you know, just called Pamela Anderson, Kitsilano beach, and she found me. And on the phone, I was having an argument with my boyfriend or fiance at the time. Actually, I've been engaged many times, and she was asking me if I would come to shoot a cover of Playboy. And she said, if we like it, we'll print it. And I said, well, call me when it's for real. And I hung up. And my boyfriend or fiance was really mad at me, and she called back and she said, no, it's for real. And I said, okay. And I just took my purse and I ran out of there and I didn't come back. The rest is history. I know it sounds crazy, and the rest is history. I thought, what am I doing staying here? This is no fun.
- [52:03]
Pamela Anderson
Pamela Anderson, this was such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
- [52:08]
Jamie Lee Curtis
Well, thank you very much.
- [52:10]
Terry Gross
That was Tanya speaking with Pamela Anderson, who stars in the new film the Last Showgirl, which is now in theaters. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [52:37]
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This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [52:53]
Charles Schwab
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