Tonya Mosley (3:36)

I'm Tonya Mosley. My first guest today is singer, songwriter and actor Jill Scott. She released her sixth studio album, to Whom this May Concern, last month, her first new music in a decade. Here's a single from the album called Pressa.

Jill Scott (3:53)

I wanted you to be mine in the daytime as well as the night but you needed to hide me and that just don't sit right. I wasn't dead, I guess, I guess I get it. So much pressure to appear just like them. Pretty and cosmetic elementary alphabetic so much pressure to appear just like them, Just like them, Just like them. So much pressure to appear just like them.

Tonya Mosley (4:53)

The song recently went to number one on the Billboard Adult R and B airplay chart. And it's about the weight of being asked to look, sound and move through the world a certain way and being desired in private but not claimed in public. Jill Scott has been making music for more than 25 years. The story goes that Quest's love of the roots first discovered her is part of Philadelphia's spoken word scene. Her 2000 debut, who is Jill? Words and Sounds, Vol. 1 answered its own question with double platinum sales, three Grammy nominations and a sound that has helped define Neo soul. Since then, Scott has won three Grammys, written a best selling book of poetry and built an acting career that has spanned from HBO's the Number One Ladies Detective Agency, BET's First Wives Club, and the role of Sheila in Tyler Perry's why Did I Get Married? A character so beloved, Tyler Perry is bringing her back this year in why Did I Get Married Again for Netflix. And Jill Scott, welcome to FRESH air.

Jill Scott (5:59)

Thank you.

Tonya Mosley (6:00)

It's a pleasure to have you.

Jill Scott (6:01)

I feel the same way. I'm so happy to be here.

Tonya Mosley (6:04)

That song, Pressia, what a song for your first single in 13 years.

Jill Scott (6:10)

Yes.

Tonya Mosley (6:10)

And you've been gone, living life and doing your own thing. And when you Say you've been pining it, you've been wanting it. What do you mean? Was that break intentional or was it also a mix of you just trying to find your way back in some way to get to that thing that you're talking about?

Jill Scott (6:30)

I literally loved writing from the very first time I read Nikki Giovanni's poetry. Loved it.

Tonya Mosley (6:41)

And how old was that? When was that?

Jill Scott (6:43)

I was, I think, 12 or 13. Loved it. Never really saw myself on paper before. I could smell the lotion between my grandmother's legs when she would braid my hair. When I read Nikki Giovanni, like, I love that I want to write like that.

Tonya Mosley (7:04)

And when you say you want to write like that, I think for me, one of the most powerful things about Nikki Giovanni is she made the ordinary so beautiful. It was the place you wanted to be. Talking about the joy of killing a pregnant roach, you know?

Jill Scott (7:23)

Yes, yes, I know that joy.

Tonya Mosley (7:27)

There's actually a song on the album called Ode to Nikki.

Jill Scott (7:31)

That's right.

Tonya Mosley (7:31)

And what's really powerful about it is it's in the cadence of the way Nikki wrote. I want to play a little bit of it and we'll talk a little bit more about it on the other side.

Jill Scott (7:43)

She is not trapped in a perpetual loop they are not doing what they are used to he is not sitting on the same concrete Wishing she is a living alive Celestine prophecy He can actually taste his own vibrancy she is swaying to her symphony Rocking, rocking her hammock Feeling the breeze Self motivating, self satisfactioning Wonderful curiosity Exciting cages crumbled Much pride, much humble, much fumbled no more dumbing down for what, for who? Exquisite views Intentional luxury Mind bending the spoon Complex simplicity simpatico Beautiful beings touched by their sun Redefining, shining, vibrating sonically Easy, easy, easy, easy.

Tonya Mosley (8:26)

That was my guest, Jill Scott. And that's a cut from her latest album, To Whom this May Concern. And that cut is called Ode to Nikki. And you were really young, so you were about 12 or 13 when you first found her. Do you remember what it was you were reading?

Jill Scott (8:41)

No, I honestly don't remember what it was. I should. I remember the pictures and I remember how I felt. It was a book of poetry. But my English teacher, her name was Fran Danish, she gave us a list of people to do essay about. And I landed on Nikki Giovanni and I just thought it was probably like some Italian guy or some Italian lady. Yes. And I found this poet ego tripping, obviously, you know, was. Was big for me, particularly in the quote unquote neo soul Era. We were all discovering poets and having poetry slams in college. I tried to get into her class and couldn't.

Tonya Mosley (9:37)

Yeah.

Jill Scott (9:38)

Oh, I tried. Couldn't get in that class. I never actually had a chance to shake her hand.

Tonya Mosley (9:44)

You never met her?

Jill Scott (9:44)

I never met her, but the impact is massive.

Tonya Mosley (9:53)

Let's talk a little bit about growing up in Philadelphia. You grew up primarily with your mom and your grandmother in North Philly.

Jill Scott (10:01)

Yes.

Tonya Mosley (10:02)

And this is not always the case, but the thing that I've been thinking about is some of the lessons that you learned by being in a multi generational home of women. You're someone who exudes very much femininity and softness, but also kind of a way of being. You set this intention with every piece of music that you put out there. What was your multi generational household like?

Jill Scott (10:29)

Good question. First of all, full of love and humor. My mother and my grandmother both competed for my attention. Yep. Through humor, sometimes. Sometimes I've been beloved. Okay. So they competed for my attention. My grandmother was born in 1917. She had a whole bunch of stories. Bunches and bunches of stories. She's brown. So brown. And. And her. Her skin texture was like a soft peach. Oh, stunning. She looks very much like the actress. I think her name is Wunmi.

Tonya Mosley (11:16)

Oh, from Sinners.

Jill Scott (11:17)

Yes. That's what my grandmother looked like. She's the one that gave me God. My grandmother.

Tonya Mosley (11:27)

She introduced you to God here. Was she also a singer herself?

Jill Scott (11:33)

Yes, but only in private.

Tonya Mosley (11:36)

I think I've heard you say she sounded like Mahalia Jackson.

Jill Scott (11:38)

Something like that. Just sincere.

Tonya Mosley (11:42)

What were the other ways that your mom and grandma tried to get your attention? Compete for your attention? That's an interesting thing because typically it's the other way around. The kid is trying to get the attention of the adults.

Jill Scott (11:55)

No, my grandmother was in the front room. My mother was in the back. And I could go and visit one and then I had to go and visit the other and then go visit the other. And that was my days, you know, going back and forth, but they wouldn't come together. Now they work together beautifully in creating a home. A home was very, very important to my grandmother and became very important to my mother as well. We lived in North Philadelphia. There were lots of R O D N T S's.

Tonya Mosley (12:27)

Yeah.

Jill Scott (12:27)

My mother fought them hand and nail.

Tonya Mosley (12:30)

Like literally.

Jill Scott (12:30)

Literally.

Tonya Mosley (12:31)

Like mice and roaches.

Jill Scott (12:33)

Yes. Fought them hard. And she won. She got the house next door to us. It had been abandoned. It was one of the reasons why there was so much going on. Got that house Cleaned that house up.

Tonya Mosley (12:47)

Do you remember when she decided, I'm gonna buy that house next door and I'mma clean it up? And what you thought as a young girl watching your mom do that?

Jill Scott (12:57)

I just thought it was dope. These are the things I expect out of her. My mother will make you a pair of pants. You know, she could do that. Make you a great soup that'll keep you full all day long. You know, she could do that. She started doing drywall with people, you know, a way to make money, but also to learn how to put up drywall. And then she started learning how to put down hardwood floors and then some plumbing. So she was hanging around some people that knew how to do some things.

Tonya Mosley (13:27)

Was this all in her day job? Because she was a dental hygienist too, right?

Jill Scott (13:31)

Right. For a while she was a dental hygienist till I was about 14. But then, you know, after that it was, I'm gonna do whatever I want. And that was a little tough because we didn't know, you know, how we were eating. But she did what she wanted to do. And one of the things she wanted to do was clean up this house. It was important to her. And that's what she did.

Tonya Mosley (13:56)

Cause all those rodents in an abandoned house is making it their way to your house, right? Yeah.

Jill Scott (14:00)

Right.

Tonya Mosley (14:02)

Was there a lot of music in your home?

Jill Scott (14:04)

There was some, uh huh. There were nights when my mother wanted to talk and she would play Millie Jackson and we would drink Manischewitz. That was a thing.

Tonya Mosley (14:17)

What is that?

Jill Scott (14:17)

Manischewitz is like a Jewish wine, I think. It's, it's not very good. It's very sweet.

Tonya Mosley (14:23)

And how old were you?

Jill Scott (14:25)

I don't know, maybe 15, 16. But having a little Manischewitz and listening to Millie Jackson or the Pointer Sisters, My mother's music was very rooted in womanhood. My grandmother's music was very rooted in Jehovah, God. And my music was rooted in like verses, Hip hop.

Tonya Mosley (14:51)

Hip hop.

Jill Scott (14:52)

Storytelling.

Tonya Mosley (14:52)

Yes.

Jill Scott (14:53)

Nikki Giovanni. She opened the door. I never turn back.

Tonya Mosley (14:58)

Our guest today is Grammy award winning artist Jill Scott. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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Tonya Mosley (16:56)

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Let's get back to my conversation with Grammy Award winning singer and actress Jill Scott. Her latest album is To Whom this May Concern. When did you realize you could sing?

Jill Scott (17:11)

I think I always knew it was just mine. This wonderful thing that will calm me down and give me peace and make me laugh and get the feelings out. I remember when other people.

Tonya Mosley (17:26)

Yes.

Jill Scott (17:26)

Yeah. I was ninth grade. I did freshman day and the initial audition I had a drummer and it was me and a drummer. We were doing Theme from Mahogany.

Tonya Mosley (17:41)

The movie. Yes.

Jill Scott (17:43)

And all the kids were like, oh. Because it, it felt like that, you know, Mr. Murphy, who gave me so much, did not like that and played the piano. And I was so disappointed because I really like the fact that, you know, the kids, I went to all girls school that the all the girls were like, yeah, that's cool. But he took it and played the piano and I sang it from a different place. It was so sincere. I remember feeling so sincere about those words. And then the place erupted. It was quiet. First.

Tonya Mosley (18:25)

Yeah.

Jill Scott (18:25)

And I finished the line and then silent. And then that was it. That was the moment. Like, oh, you like it too,

Tonya Mosley (18:39)

because before then you had been singing, but just singing to yourself, not in front of other People, not in front of other people. Where would you sing?

Jill Scott (18:48)

Where my grandma sang in the tub. And when you cleaning, you know, or on my way to school or, you know, on the bus or at recess while playing rope. Like, you know, everywhere there's this story

Tonya Mosley (19:08)

that Questlove from the Roots discovered you as part of the spoken word scene in Philadelphia. How do you remember it?

Jill Scott (19:19)

I was in a poetry reading. I had been doing it quite a bit. I had my feelings hurt, and my girlfriends were like, read poetry. And I was like, okay. So I wrote, and my girlfriends were like, you're a poet. And I was like, I'm a poet. Like Nikki Galvani. I'm going to do it more. So I did it more and started to make a little bit of a name for myself. And then Questlove came to a poetry reading. I think he was DJing. He might have been. I don't know. But he was there and he asked me if I ever wrote songs. And I was like, yeah, I do. But I didn't. I lied.

Tonya Mosley (19:51)

What was it in you, in that moment that made you say, yeah, I can. And how did that feel, knowing that, oh, you. You might be able to enter this world?

Jill Scott (20:03)

I didn't really think about the world. I just honestly enjoy what I was doing. And you mean there could be more of that? Oh, I would like more of that. So, yeah, I went, you know, when he invited me to the studio to write a hook for them. Sure, I'll go. I had been listening to do youo Want More Faithfully. It was one of my favorite albums, still is to this day. So, you know, this is a big deal to be asked by Questlove, you know, but it's also like Philly, because this is the guy that played, you know, on the street corner.

Tonya Mosley (20:41)

Right. You knew him at that time?

Jill Scott (20:42)

I didn't know him.

Tonya Mosley (20:43)

But you wanted to.

Jill Scott (20:44)

I knew them. I knew of them.

Tonya Mosley (20:45)

Yeah.

Jill Scott (20:46)

You know, but I don't necessarily assert myself in these places. It has to be organic for me so that it's real.

Tonya Mosley (20:54)

So you entered that studio and then you started writing.

Jill Scott (20:57)

Yeah.

Tonya Mosley (20:58)

And there's this song youg Got Me was your first real songwriting credit, a song that you sang for the Roots. But the version that we heard was Erykah Badu's version. Take us back to that moment. Did you record the track? Yes.

Jill Scott (21:13)

It all happened in one day. Like one afternoon. I went to the studio, Sigma Sound, and Scott Storch and I were talking, hanging out.

Tonya Mosley (21:23)

And who is that? Just for folks who don't Know, Scott

Jill Scott (21:26)

Storch is a big time producer now. Okay. Big time. And at. At the time, he was playing keys for the Roots. So we go into the studio and it was very simple. He started playing a melody. I sang the words. He said, can you record that? And I said, okay, recorded it. And we went to lunch. We went to an Italian restaurant. I kind of forgot all about it. I don't know why, but I did. You know, either they liked it or they didn't.

Tonya Mosley (21:55)

Yes.

Jill Scott (21:57)

And they liked it. So I heard through the grapevine, I was told that they liked it, that they were going to use it. Then I heard it was a single. I was like, it's a single. Oh, my God, that's crazy. I can't believe this is happening to me. And then I was on 22nd Street. I was looking for, like, beauty supplies or walking by the beauty supply places, and I heard the song and I was like, this is the song. And it wasn't my voice. And I was like, what is who? And then I knew who it was. You know, I listened a little more. I was like, that's Erykah Badu. That's Erykah Badu. I made it.

Tonya Mosley (22:38)

So you weren't feeling like, why isn't that my voice you were feeling? Oh, my gosh, Erykah Badu is singing my words.

Jill Scott (22:44)

I got about 14 good seconds. Wait a minute. What happened? That's not me. And then I realized it was way bigger than that. Like, way bigger. I'm. I. This is a door. A door has opened, you know? And Erica will tell you herself, she doesn't sing anybody else's music. I didn't know that either. So that.

Tonya Mosley (23:06)

Knowing that. What does that mean to you? Knowing that she doesn't sing anyone else's music, but she was singing your words.

Jill Scott (23:14)

I'm telling you, it's really ridiculous.

Tonya Mosley (23:18)

Well, you eventually ended up two in

Jill Scott (23:19)

the morning, feeling fresh to death. I'm so blessed.

Tonya Mosley (23:23)

Yes. Yes. Well, you eventually ended up touring with the Roots. And yes. Then you were singing every night. Every city that you went to, you

Jill Scott (23:33)

got me, got a chance to learn, and almost lost that job because I had a manager who wanted to make money. And it's not that I didn't want to make money, but I'm singing one hook on one song. You know what I mean? How much can you really ask somebody to pay you to sing one hook? And I'm getting an opportunity to see places I've never been. I haven't traveled much. I don't have the money. You know, but now I'm getting to go from city to city and see these venues, and I'm performing in front of people. And it's a lot more than poetry readings,

Tonya Mosley (24:08)

you know, Jill, your first album came out in 2000, when I was coming into myself as a woman. And I just want to thank you for all of what you have put out in the world. You've allowed me to see myself. And it's a beautiful thing, isn't it? I can't even. I don't even have the words to tell you.

Jill Scott (24:28)

I'm telling you, I really love this auntie life.

Tonya Mosley (24:31)

Yeah.

Jill Scott (24:32)

I really. Wherever I can help, I am into it. Wherever I can help. Especially when it comes to. I've learned this. When somebody wants something from you, you give them a task. If they handle the task and do it well, then you can proceed. But other than that, you know, people talk a lot. Oh, I want to do this. I want to be this. I want to go. Here, Let me see what you do.

Tonya Mosley (24:58)

Do you do that? Because I'm sure you have a lot of young artists and singers who come to you because they want to. They want advice from you. Is that what you do?

Jill Scott (25:07)

That's what I do, yeah. Yeah. Let me see what you do. This is how I've learned to navigate.

Tonya Mosley (25:13)

What do you have them do?

Jill Scott (25:15)

Whatever I need them to do, yes. Whether it is to learn an album or listen to an album, whether it is. Aretha Franklin sent me to get her two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard.

Tonya Mosley (25:32)

You met her, you told her you loved her.

Jill Scott (25:34)

Yes.

Tonya Mosley (25:34)

And then she said, what?

Jill Scott (25:36)

Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard. And I went, yes. Okay. I think I had the number one album in the country at that time. Yes. And I went to the corner and I got those hot dogs and I brought them back, and I, you know, just waited. I don't even think she ate them.

Tonya Mosley (25:56)

What did that teach you?

Jill Scott (26:00)

Well, I would, one, say, be nicer to people. But two, you gotta earn your stripes. Then I was like, oh, you know, I wanted her to be nicer to me, to embrace me, to tell me that, you know, give me some advice and hold my hand a little bit. But that's not what happened. Okay, Now I'm in a. Now I'm. I am that woman to a certain degree. And now I just have a task for you. Let me see what you're gonna do. Don't waste it. Don't waste my time. Don't waste your time. It's Too valuable. And I like this. This is. This is the auntie portion. She's a little tougher and I like that part. This is good for me. It's good for you, too. If you want it.

Tonya Mosley (26:44)

Absolutely.

Jill Scott (26:45)

If you want it. I'm very grateful to be a part of so many people's maturation. There's nothing wrong with being mature. There is nothing wrong with growing up.

Tonya Mosley (26:58)

Jill Scott, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time and for your music and your art.

Jill Scott (27:05)

Thank you. You're welcome.

Tonya Mosley (27:08)

Jill Scott's new album is called To Whom this May. Okay, here's the setup for Bait, a new prime video series. A struggling British Pakistani actor lands the audition of a lifetime as James Bond. Word gets out, the Internet goes wild, and suddenly his life starts to resemble the very character he's auditioning to play. He's in a chase sequence, except he's not chasing a villain. He's chasing acceptance. The series is part spy thriller, part family comedy, part psychological unraveling, and entirely unlike anything else on television right now. My guest today, Riz Ahmed, created it, wrote it and produced it, and stars as the lead character, Shah Lateef. Bait opens with Shah in a tuxedo doing a James Bond screen test. He's debonair, commanding, in control. James Bond personified. And then he forgets his lines.

Jill Scott (28:16)

Tell me, when it's just you all alone.

Tonya Mosley (28:22)

How do you live with yourself?

Jill Scott (28:24)

Do you even know who you are?

Riz Ahmed (28:37)

Line. Sorry.

Tonya Mosley (28:38)

Sorry.

Riz Ahmed (28:42)

Sorry.

Jill Scott (28:42)

Helm. It's all good. It's all good.

Tonya Mosley (28:46)

It's just we're on a bit of a schedule.

Riz Ahmed (28:48)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Quick reset, back to once. I made it this time. How are you blowing this audition? I know the speech.

Jill Scott (28:55)

I know it.

Tonya Mosley (28:56)

Michael. You up every time at the exact same moment.

Jill Scott (29:01)

What is this, a prank show wearing a hidden camera?

Riz Ahmed (29:04)

That's funny. No, I. I just have a very particular process. I've got my head around it now. I'm ready.

Tonya Mosley (29:09)

Sorry, guys, we just.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (29:10)

We have to.

Tonya Mosley (29:10)

Yeah, well, just a minute.

Jill Scott (29:11)

Sorry.

Tonya Mosley (29:12)

How was your weekend?

NPR Sponsor Announcer (29:12)

It was good, thanks.

Riz Ahmed (29:13)

How was yours?

Jill Scott (29:13)

Great.

Riz Ahmed (29:14)

Yeah? What did you do?

Jill Scott (29:15)

Just.

Tonya Mosley (29:16)

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Jim. You see my set?

Jill Scott (29:19)

Stop it.

Riz Ahmed (29:20)

Sorry.

Jill Scott (29:21)

You know what? They didn't want to see you.

Tonya Mosley (29:24)

I had to convince them.

Jill Scott (29:26)

So this is on me.

Riz Ahmed (29:27)

I've got a confession to make. I'm light headed from fasting. It's the Holy Muslim month. It's called Ramadan. This involves no eating and drinking in the day. I'm light headed from getting a bit of a cultural understanding.

Tonya Mosley (29:44)

Well, I've just seen you drink apple juice. Six takes in a row. I tried.

Jill Scott (29:50)

It's just a shame you didn't. No.

Tonya Mosley (29:54)

This moment is the beginning of a wild ride as we watch this character unravel. And Riz has said, embedded in this show is a hunger to belong and what it costs someone when they finally get close to the thing that they've been chasing their whole lives. Riz is an Emmy Award winning and Oscar nominated actor who is known for many roles, including the Night of, an HBO crime drama in which he plays a college student whose life shatters after being accused of murder. In Sound of Metal, he played a punk drummer grappling with sudden hearing loss. And in the Long Goodbye, he's part of a British Pakistani family whose ordinary Sunday is shattered by a far right militia. Riz Ahmed earned an Oscar for best live action short film this spring. His adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet opens in theaters. And Riz, welcome back to FRESH air.

Riz Ahmed (30:47)

Thank you so much for having me back.

Tonya Mosley (30:49)

What did Bond in particular represent to you as a British Pakistani kid growing up in London?

Riz Ahmed (30:57)

Yeah, well, I want to deal with the first part of what you said first, which is is Riz playing a character playing himself? And if you don't mind, I want to say something that you said to me just before we started recording the interview. I said, look, how did you like the show? And you said, I feel like I'm Shah. You said that. Tanya, you said I feel like, damn, I'm that person, if you don't mind me saying. So many people have been saying that. And yes, there's a lot of me and shah, but I think actually there's a lot of Shah in all of us, more than we like to admit. And really the show is about this feeling that life sometimes feels like one big audition. You know, we all feel like we have to perform this version of ourselves that knows the script, that, as you said, is commanding and decisive and desirable. The best public version of ourselves, we're performing that. But actually the gap between that public self and the messy vulnerability of our private selves is often huge. You know, and that's true whether you're talking about how your life is actually going versus the Instagram post you just got put up or that you saw of someone else or like how professional and put together you're seeming on a zoom call when actually you're not wearing any pants, you know, just out of the frame. And so there's just to answer your question, like I feel Like, I'm playing, I'm trying to draw on a feeling that is personal to me, but I think it's personal to a lot of people.

Tonya Mosley (32:19)

And then that extra component, though, of playing the man, James Bond, like he is considered the ultimate, you know, in every way.

Riz Ahmed (32:29)

Absolutely.

Jill Scott (32:30)

Yeah.

Riz Ahmed (32:30)

Yeah. I mean, you know, the show isn't really about James Bond, but James Bond is a very important symbol because he is the ultimate symbol of success. Yes, sure. As an actor, he is, you know, the pinnacle of cinematic achievement. And yet it's also just, you know, for any of us, he's this archetype of like, like I said, decisiveness, desirability, of being in control, being unflappable, of being invulnerable. And so I, I wanted the character of James Bond to serve as this symbol of, of aspiration, this unattainable kind of self that Char, Char is, is, is hunting down almost. And in chasing this, this symbol, is he abandoning himself? Is he abandoning where he's from? Is he abandoning his family? Has he forgotten actually who he really is? And so the show is trying to deal with that. And I think that that's something that, you know, we, we all kind of go through. We're, we're often pulled between the people we were and the people we want to be. And actually the healthy equilibrium is, is probably somewhere in the middle. You know, probably that thing you want to be is like an attempt to escape, and that thing you were is maybe, you know, a version of yourself you need to evolve out of. But we often feel pulled between those two polarities.

Tonya Mosley (33:51)

We're listening to my conversation with Riz Ahmed. He stars in the new prime video series Bait, as well as Hamlet, a modern reimagining of Shakespeare's classic set in London's South Asian community. In theaters April 10th. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.

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Tonya Mosley (35:33)

This is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tonya Moseley. Let's get back to my interview with Riz Ahmed. He stars in the new prime video series Bait. He plays a British Pakistani actor auditioning to be the next James Bond. How long did it take for you to work on this concept, this idea and come to what is a genre bending series?

Riz Ahmed (35:58)

Oh, man. I started kind of scribbling down ideas for this show in 2014, and I started doing that because, as I said, the gap between my public and private self started becoming so big and so stressful. They actually started feeling kind of hilarious. If I give you an example.

Tonya Mosley (36:14)

Oh, really?

Riz Ahmed (36:14)

Yeah, yeah. Like the week that it got revealed that, you know, okay, I'm in new Star wars and they released it a released a cast photograph of us all on set. That same week, I got banned from my local supermarket for suspected shoplifting because my washing machine had broken. Only clean clothes I had were flip flops, bright pink swim shorts, a bright green puffer jacket and a tank top. I'm dragging a massive bag of dirty clothes around to the laundromat. I remember it's my brother's birthday. I haven't got him a cake. I go to Tesco's. I'm trying to get him cake. They got no cake. I buy a frozen pizza with birthday candles. I'm at checkout. It seems like an insane thing I'm buying anyway. It's like, yeah, birthday candles and pizza. I'm dressed insanely. I've got this massive laundry bag and I forgot to beep it properly on the checkout and another pizza and it goes off. And security like, yeah, this you look, this person looked kind of shady. And we get into a back and forth and I'm so frustrated. At one point I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting. I'm Star wars man. And they go, okay, this person's definitely crazy and you're banned. You're never coming back here. This is an example about like the messy chaos of who we really are versus the image of success that somewhere out there publicly. And again, that's not just true for an actor. That's true of everyone who's posting their best selfie on Instagram, you know, So I started jotting down these little stories to try and just process them and make sense of them. I knew there was something in these contradictions and juxtapositions that was about me making sense of my own experience, but also that just felt kind of universal if I could just get a handle on it. And so I spent many years jotting down these, these ideas. And then it was when I met my co showrunner, Ben Carlin. We put the writers room together and all this kind of stuff. We realized actually the perfect symbol for this show is. Is James Bond. And that was partly also because my name had been mentioned in relation to James Bond casting in some articles and, and stuff over the years. So in the meta kind of spirit of this show, we're trying to be as meta as possible and, and have fun with that. I thought, actually that's a perfect symbol, you know, that's a perfect symbol of. For a character who wants to be anything other than himself, who would he want to be? He'd want to be James Bond.

Tonya Mosley (38:31)

I marvel at the multi nature of this series. As I'm watching it, I'm just thinking, how did he pitch this? You know, how does one pitch something like this and get it greenlit? Because it's so well done, but it also can't really be explained in one line.

Riz Ahmed (38:51)

It's interesting you say it can't be explained in one line because throughout the whole process we struggled with that. Right. And then when we got to the very end of the process, we actually found a way of summing up the whole show in one word. And that word is bait. Yes.

Tonya Mosley (39:06)

And what does that mean?

Riz Ahmed (39:07)

I want to unpack it for a minute. Right. So bait is a British slang word which means being blatant and in your face and attention seeking. There we go. That's what my character is doing for much of the series. Bayt is an online term about trolling or provoking people online. That's a big part of our show as well. That element, bayt in Urdu means your loyalty or your allegiance. And that is something that Shah is contending with. Home versus ambition, east versus West. Bayt in Arabic and Hebrew means home. And so much of this show is a love letter to home. And it's about family and how far do you travel from home in order to please home or, or help home? You know, and then of course there's a big spy thriller element to our show. And bait is something that's used as part of a trap. And so it's a weird thing where only in retrospect we realize, like, oh my God, we accidentally stumbled on the perfect title for this that actually communicates the entire layer cake of this show. It is all those flavors and the word bait means all those things.

Tonya Mosley (40:12)

Riz, let's talk a little bit about Shakespeare, because it wasn't really your thing as a kid until a teacher I hear introduced you to Hamlet. What do you remember about that first encounter with the play and what did it kind of unlock for you?

Riz Ahmed (40:28)

Yeah, it's really interesting. I, like many people, felt like Shakespeare is the epitome of everything I'm on the outside of. It doesn't belong to me. It's stuffy, it's elitist. And I got a government assisted place to a private school where I felt like an outsider for many different reasons. And I was lucky enough to have an English teacher called Mr. Rose Blade, who was a white Jewish middle aged man from a different place in the uk, thought we had nothing in common, but he spoke fluent Punjabi and he brought me AML and said, you know, this thing, this story, this character, it's at the heart of the establishment that you feel so alienated from in many ways. But have a read of it, you might recognize yourself in this character. And I did, like millions of people have, right? Hamlet being a character who feels out of place. Hamlet himself feels like an outsider. He feels like he doesn't belong, like no one understands. And it really spoke to me as a teenager. But more than that, what I realized was, hang on a minute. This Hamlet story set in, you know, medieval Denmark actually is exactly like growing up in Wembley. This is about who you can and can't marry. This is about everyone squabbling over the family business. This is about the reality and lived experience of spirituality, ghosts and spirit possession, which is par for the course. It's, you know, it's part of our lived experience culturally. And this is also actually kind of pivots on a story point of marrying one's sister in law if your brother dies, which is a cultural tradition. I think it's actually a Jewish tradition and an ancient Hindu and South Asian tradition. I've actually grown up with people who've had to do that if their brother has died tragically. They themselves are unmarried with the consent obviously of their sister in law. And of the conversation that they have, they go, should we get married? It's a way of protecting the orphans and protecting the widow. So I. But this didn't feel like this antiquated, kind of slightly out of touch piece to me. I was like, if you put it in my community, in my experience, this is, right now, this is completely vivid and completely urgent. And it was then, at the age of 17, that I very precociously had the idea that, man, I want to make a movie of this one day and I want to set it in that place. And in doing so, I hope to kind of render this story more vividly in a more urgent, modern way than maybe I've seen it and make it just make it feel real. Because all those things are so real in that environment.

Tonya Mosley (43:09)

What did you have to kind of work through to get to this adaptation? Because you could have just played Hamlet and put on a movie adaptation of Hamlet.

Riz Ahmed (43:18)

As it is, you know, I really believe that the amount of time it took was kind of quite divinely guided in a way. That's because I feel that this is the moment for this story. You know, it's a story, Hamlet is a story, and it's a character who is grieving the illusion that the world was ever a fair place. And I think that's how we're all feeling now. We all, we're all grieving and reeling from this realization that, okay, I knew the world was unfair, but now the shameless, brazen unfairness of it is just kind of laid bare. And it's about grieving that illusion. And it's also about feeling powerless in the face of how unfair it is. And it's actually feeling kind of complicit in it and gaslit about it. And that's what the play is about. And I think that this is when it was meant to be told. But for us creatively, the part that we were struggling to unlock is how do you not make this feel just like a Shakespeare performance and a poetry recital? How do you not make this feel like a kind of self congratulatory, like actor wants to take on the classic? And actually that was the opposite of how we wanted it to feel. And it really took us meeting Anil Karia, the director. It was after I collaborated with him on the short film the Long Goodbye, for which he won an Oscar, that I was like, oh, I think we know how to do this. We need a director who's worked a lot in rap music videos. We need a director who has Actually can render poetry in a very raw way and give us raw action in a very poetic way. And that's what he did in that short film, and that's what he does in his films. And we connected and we had a long conversation about how this has to feel like music.

Tonya Mosley (45:05)

You know, there's the classic line from Hamlet. To be or not to be, that is the question. And in your version, Hamlet delivers this famous soliloquy, basically speeding through the rain at 100 miles an hour. And I want to play a little bit of it. Let's listen.

Riz Ahmed (45:27)

To be or not to be, that is the question. Whether he's nobler and amitas suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against the sea of troubles, but by opposing end them. To die, to sleep, no more,

Tonya Mosley (45:59)

Or

Riz Ahmed (45:59)

by sleep to say we end the heartache. Thousand natural shocks the fleshes of there to consummation devoutly to be wished, to die, to sleep, To sleep for a chance to dream.

Jill Scott (46:22)

There's the rub

Tonya Mosley (46:26)

that is my guest, Riz Ahmed, in his latest film adaptation of Hamlet.

Jill Scott (46:32)

And.

Tonya Mosley (46:32)

And Riz, you've talked about this before, but for most of us, we're kind of taught that this speech is about suicide. Basically, Hamlet is weighing whether life is worth living. And you came to believe something entirely different is happening in those lines. What do you think Hamlet is actually asking?

Riz Ahmed (46:49)

Yeah, I don't think it's about suicide at all. It's about fighting back against oppression, even if you know you will lose any. Everything, possibly even your life. It's actually very clear in black and white in the text. The active verb here is about taking. It's about to take up arms. You know, what he's saying is there's two choices. You can carry on being. And it's very interesting. He says, be, not living, just be. You can exist and you can exist and just suffer all the oppression and all the unfairness and all the injustice of the world and all the insults that life throws at you, or you can fight back. But fighting back might mean you will not no longer be. So it's really about whether we are willing to pay. Pay the price of true resistance, you know, and. And it's actually a very, very radical speech. It's very confronting. It's tackling a taboo subject, really,

Jill Scott (48:00)

the

Riz Ahmed (48:00)

idea of taking up arms and resisting oppression and the powers that be. It's a dangerous idea, actually. It can get you arrested. You discuss that openly to this day.

Tonya Mosley (48:10)

I mean, Shakespeare was a wordsmith. He's working in Verse and rhythm. And I'm thinking about your background in rap and your politically charged album, and I'm wondering, did that hip hop instinct shape at all how you heard and delivered these lines?

Riz Ahmed (48:26)

Yeah, very, very much so. Very much so. Here's my take on it. A lot of people find a block with Shakespeare because they find it difficult to understand what the words mean. I totally get it. I often feel the same way. Here's the thing, people in Shakespeare's day themselves did not speak like that. They didn't say that Shakespeare made up like between three and five thousand new words. I think there's some estimates. The word eyeball is a word that he made up. Imagine hearing that for the first time. A what? Ball? An eye, what. He made that up. And one thing that he played with all the time was rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. And so in the same way that when I listen to some of my favorite rappers new songs, I don't know what they say the first time around, but I am totally rapped, I'm totally leaning in, I'm engaged, I feel it emotionally. It's the same way. Your first experience of this thing is supposed to be like music. You didn't catch all of the words, but that word there felt weird enough to make you sit up. And what you're supposed to do is receive an electric charge of rhythm and melody and musicality, just like rap music. But that's not the actual experience of these plays. So I wish more people spoke about Shakespeare in that way because to me it is much more like music than it is like, you know, an English class.

Tonya Mosley (49:55)

Did you come to this understanding as that 17 year old whose teacher introduced you? Did you see that connection? Cause you were kind of deep in rap at that moment, that time. Yeah, it's such an interesting connection to make.

Riz Ahmed (50:10)

You know, I think it's an inevitable one to make really, you know, if you're interested in poetry, if you're interested in lyricism, if you're interested in rhythm, like Shakespeare's doing that he's playing in, in all those arenas. And so it was clear to me very early on. But something that isn't also lost on me is at the same time I was studying under Rob Claire and doing a master's in classical acting, which is essentially just a master's in just in Shakespeare performance. That's when I started on the rap battle circuit in London and things like jump off and Battle Scars and Bombay Bronx and you know, competing in all these championships. And so it did somehow in my mind feel like, it's one thing,

Tonya Mosley (50:49)

as you've mentioned, Riz, you grew up in Wembley in northwest London, the son of Pakistani parents who immigrated in the 1970s. Take me back to when you were a teenage Riz, and you were DJing and rapping. You started on pirate radio. How did you discover pirate radio?

Riz Ahmed (51:08)

So I grew up in the, you know, in the mid-90s in the UK. I grew up in Wembley. Wembley is both, you know, the site of England's greatest triumph in the 1966 World Cup. And also in the shadow of that stadium, I'd go every Sunday to Wembley Market, which is where you'd buy the Chinese spring roll and the immigrant kind of food stalls and the fake designer clothes that we'd buy and sell over there, you know, amongst that kind of working class and immigrant community. And pirate radio station culture was just everywhere, you know. Yes, you'd have, you know, the BBC radio stations and the other London stations, but in between all those airwaves, the one that's all the FM frequencies that were not spoken for, you'd hear a faint crackle and then the voice of MCs on microphones that were broadcasting from the roofs of housing projects locally. And that's pirate radio culture. So it was there that I was kind of exposed more and more to drum and bass and garage, particularly when I was too young to actually go to the raves themselves. As soon as I was old enough to kind of try and hack off whatever faint facial hair I had and try and, like, grow it back thicker, I, you know, I was at the raves themselves. And, you know, I just love the music. I love the specificity of London's musical subculture. And the uk, I think, does that so well, you know, because of the. The Clash and the mix of different. Of different cultures and different sounds and influences. So, yeah, I was exposed to it and then I started doing it myself, both at raves and. And on pirate radio. And I remember when I went to Oxford and I got in there, I felt like I'd lost something. I'd lost this thing that I loved. And so I was eager to kind of keep it going. And that's when I started, you know, promoting my own club nights. And it became a really invaluable place where every week, without fail, I could hone my craft, I could try out new lyrics, I could gain confidence as a performer. And I think it helped me, not just as an emcee, but as an actor.

Tonya Mosley (53:13)

Well, Riz, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Riz Ahmed (53:17)

Thank you for having me. And thank you for the wonderful conversation.

Tonya Mosley (53:22)

Riz Ahmed stars in A reimagining of Hamlet, which opens in theaters in April, and the new prime video series Bait. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.

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