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Tonya Moseley (3:16)

This is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tanya Moseley. Terri has today's first interview. Here she is.

Terry Gross (3:23)

My guest is Jodie Foster, and we're going to look back on her life and career, starting with her early days as a child actor and her Oscar nominated performance in Taxi Driver when she was 12. Next month marks the film's 50th anniversary. She recently received an Oscar nomination for the film nyad, an Emmy win for the latest season of the HBO series True Detective, and is now starring in a new French language film, A Private Life. Along the way, Foster won many awards, including Oscars for the films the Accused and the Silence of the Lambs. In A Private Life, she plays an American Freudian psychoanalyst in Paris, and with the exception of a few lines, she speaks French throughout the film. When the film begins, everyone is angry with her, including her patients. One of them accuses her of having wasted his time. He's been in therapy with her for years, hoping it would help him quit smoking. It hasn't helped. So he tried a hypnotist, and after only one session, he quit cigarettes. Foster's character is very skeptical of hypnosis. But when one of her patients, a beautiful woman, dies under mysterious circumstances, Foster's character wants to get to the bottom of what happened, hoping she wasn't in any way responsible. Despite her skepticism, she sees a hypnotist goes under and that sets her on a path to uncover what happened to her patient. Jodie Foster, welcome back to FRESH air. It's been years, and my impression is your life has changed a lot since then.

Jodie Foster (4:56)

I don't know, it's moved on. But it's the same old me. And I'm always so happy to be on NPR because I'm such an NPR fan and such an NPR head.

Terry Gross (5:06)

That is so great to hear. So your new film is in French and you went to French language school, right?

Jodie Foster (5:12)

Yeah, My mom, when I was about nine years old, she had never traveled anywhere in her life. And she right before then she took a trip to France and fell in love with it and said, okay, you're gonna Learn French. You're gonna go to an immersion school, and someday maybe you'll be a French actor. And so they dropped me in where it was a school, Le Lise Francaise de Los Angeles, that. That does everything in French. So it was science and math and history, everything in French. And I cried for about six months. And then I spoke fluently and got over it.

Terry Gross (5:44)

So hypnosis plays a key role in the new movie. Did you ever go under, even for research?

Jodie Foster (5:50)

Well, actually, I have. I quit smoking. When I quit smoking, I went to a hypnotist. And I was a really, really big smoker. So I tried everything. And I'd tried to quit a million times. And, you know, like everybody, I'd get edgy or I'd gain weight or I couldn't sleep. So I went to this gu and, you know, wrote the check for $90. And I don't know, he said a few things. I felt a little sleepy, but other than that, I didn't, you know, didn't go into any kind of trance. And I left thinking, well, this is dumb. I can't believe I gave that guy $90 and I could smoke tomorrow. And then I just never smoked again.

Terry Gross (6:23)

Wow, that's great. That's kind of what happens in the movie.

Jodie Foster (6:26)

Yeah, exactly.

Terry Gross (6:27)

Well, not really. Nah. And the movie sets her off on this, like, mystery. Would you be game to do a career retrospective?

Jodie Foster (6:36)

Sure.

Terry Gross (6:37)

Okay. I'm gonna go back to the very beginning.

Jodie Foster (6:39)

Okay.

Terry Gross (6:40)

You did a Coppertone commercial. A lot of people know that when you were three. And it wasn't like the billboard or picture version, this was like a TV commercial, right? Yeah. When we didn't see your bare behind. Unlike the picture version, you know, the photograph.

Jodie Foster (6:56)

Yeah. There were a lot of things that were different. It was, you know, it was the 60s and the dog would not perform. So the dog was, you know, they tried to get the do to kind of pull at my bikini bottom, but the dog was, like, not having it.

Terry Gross (7:08)

Okay, moving on. This is from the Paul Lynde show, which was, I think, from the early 70s. And so the main character, played by Paul Lynn, rings the doorbell looking for his daughter and son in law who he either knows or thinks is living there. And when he walks in, he realizes, oh, it's like a hippie Buddhist commune.

Tessa Thompson (7:34)

Okay.

Terry Gross (7:35)

Okay, here we go.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (7:37)

Howie and Barbara Dickerson here.

Jodie Foster (7:39)

Are you the fuzz?

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (7:42)

No, I'm not the fuzz.

Jodie Foster (7:44)

I'm not supposed to let the fuzz in.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (7:46)

I'm Barbara's father.

Terry Gross (7:48)

Uh.

Jodie Foster (7:48)

Oh, I'm not Supposed to let them in either.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (7:51)

Let me talk to your mother.

Jodie Foster (7:53)

Which one.

Tessa Thompson (7:56)

Huh?

Jodie Foster (7:57)

All the girls hear my mother.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (7:59)

Just what a father wants to hear. Pardon me, young man, but I'm looking for Howie and Barbara Dickerson.

Terry Gross (8:07)

He's meditating.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (8:10)

Well, can he hear me?

Jodie Foster (8:12)

Only if you're Buddha.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (8:13)

Look, I'm not gonna stand here and.

Jodie Foster (8:14)

Play straight man to you.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (8:19)

I really.

Jodie Foster (8:20)

I do remember Paul Lin because I really liked him.

Terry Gross (8:23)

He's funny in this.

Jodie Foster (8:24)

He was funny.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (8:25)

He was funny.

Jodie Foster (8:26)

He was really nice to me. And, of course, he's very memorable. So I do remember being on that show.

Terry Gross (8:30)

Okay, I actually got one more. Okay, this is a Crest TV commercial.

Tessa Thompson (8:35)

Oh, yeah.

Terry Gross (8:36)

So four guys are playing golf. One of them sinks a putt. The other guys react, and at the same time, you run up on the green excited to tell your father about the visit to the dentist that you and your brother just had.

Jodie Foster (8:49)

Okay.

Tonya Moseley (8:53)

This is your.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (8:55)

Jody. Our checkup.

Jodie Foster (8:56)

Jimmy only had two cavities, and I didn't have any.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (8:59)

Hey, we really did it. How'd you do it?

Jodie Foster (9:02)

We brushed with Crest.

Terry Gross (9:03)

Now.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (9:04)

Must be the Crest. It has fluoride. The others we tried, didn't. Hey, great. A toothpaste should fight cavities. Crest can't promise everybody results like this, but we can promise most people good checkups. Fighting cavities is the whole idea behind Crest. Hey, George, maybe your game is really tennis.

Jodie Foster (9:24)

Oh, boy.

Terry Gross (9:24)

The acting is so terrible in there. Oh, yeah.

Jodie Foster (9:27)

Well, but that was what you were supposed to do. You were supposed to be terrible. We didn't know. I mean, just was a different style, you know, it was a different style.

Terry Gross (9:36)

By which I think you mean it sounds like somebody just reading their lines for the first time.

Jodie Foster (9:40)

Yes.

Terry Gross (9:41)

Yes.

Jodie Foster (9:42)

And, yeah, I mean, I remember thinking, oh, well, this is not a job I'm gonna do when I'm a grownup, because this seems like a very silly job. You know, I just learn lines and then I say them. And somebody usually says to me. The first direction, somebody tells me, is usually act natural. Or, you know, maybe they'll say something like, be excited on that line. And that part of it was. Had held no sway for me. I had no interest in that. The part that was interesting to me was being on set with these families of, you know, mostly guys. They really, you know, were all these bro fathers who would teach me things and they'd talk about how the camera worked and, you know, we would all be freezing together or complaining about the food together. And there was this community of people that I belonged to. And because I loved movies and loved television. Love. That was such a big part of my life. I was a part of something. So that's the part that I remember. I don't remember the work particularly as being intriguing.

Terry Gross (10:43)

You were mauled by a lion at age nine. I read that. But what happened was this. On a shoot.

Jodie Foster (10:50)

Yeah, it was an accident. I was working with a lion who I loved and worked with every day. Was an old lion, had no teeth, very old. On a Disney movie. And they kept them in zoo structures at night, but they hadn't put enough security on them. So at. Kids at night, in the middle of the night would come and shoot BB guns at the lions. There were two other lions. One was a stand in lion and one was like a stunt lion. So they let the.

Terry Gross (11:17)

Were they in the union?

Jodie Foster (11:18)

Exactly. Yeah. Oh yeah. There's a whole, you know, animal training thing that we do in the film business. And so the trainer couldn't get the old lion to work, so they. He just wouldn't move. And you can't make a 500 pound lion do anything. So they got the stand in lion and the stand in lion worked all day. And we were ending the day going up a hillside. I think they might have been tugging him with a. Guiding him with a piano wire, which is a thin filament. And I guess he snapped. I mean, he came around. He picked me up by the hip and shook me like this.

Terry Gross (11:54)

Wow, he picked you up like in his mouth?

Jodie Foster (11:56)

Yeah, yep. He held me horizontally and then flipped me around and shook me. So I watched the entire film crew run in the opposite direction sideways.

Terry Gross (12:09)

Oh my God. To get you help or to run away from the lion?

Jodie Foster (12:12)

Run away from the lion. And then I remember showing great courage. Yes. And then I remember thinking, oh, this must be an earthquake. I knew about earthquakes. I grew up in la, so I knew about earthquakes. And then I guess.

Terry Gross (12:24)

Wait, wait, are you saying you didn't know you were in the lion's mouth?

Jodie Foster (12:27)

No, I guess I was. You know, it's a shocking thing that happened. I had no idea what was happening. The only thing I remember is I remember his mane coming around my. When I looked down, I could see his mane coming around. And then the next thing I knew it was an earthquake. And then he dropped me and the trainer said, drop it. And the lion was so well trained that he dropped me. And then as I was rolling down the hill, he came running after me. And then he put his paw on me like, I got this. What do we do next? So, yeah, it was a scary moment. The good news is I'm fine. I have some scars that are very delicate and dainty and have moved all over my body because apparently that's what happens when you get older. Your scars move around your body. And I'm not afraid of lions. In fact, whenever I see a lion, I went to Africa not too long ago and everybody else was terrified. They were petrified because the lions were so close and they were eating prey and all of this. And I was like, oh, makes me want to go out there and ride on top of them.

Terry Gross (13:27)

Did it make you think that acting was unsafe?

Jodie Foster (13:32)

No, no. Accidents happen. And I think my mom was really smart. I think she, you know, she talked to me and she said, you know, it wasn't the lion's fault. And I understood that. I went back and worked with the lion. I was in hospital for, you know, three or four days or something. I, I, they determined I was okay. So they, I went back and I worked with the lion. And I think that was the right thing to do, which is, you know, I was very lucky. And they're animals and we love them and, and you know, we, you go through the procedures to make sure that you're safe. And I worked with lots of other, you know, I worked with camels, I worked with pigs, I worked with lots of other animals. I think she did the right thing, which is just to make sure that I got through it.

Terry Gross (14:13)

I think your mother sometimes exercised like such good judgment in terms of choosing roles for you, though some people might find that judgment very questionable when it comes to Taxi Driver. But that's one of my very favorite films. It's such a deep psychological study of the characters in it.

Jodie Foster (14:35)

Yeah, I couldn't be more grateful to have, I mean, what lucky to have been part of that. Our golden age of Cinema in the 70s. Some of the great greatest movies that America ever made, the greatest filmmakers auteur films that were really talking about our times in ways that challenging it in ways that had never happened before. So I couldn't be happier that she chose these roles for me. And a lot of it was, yes, it was a vicarious effort on her part that, you know, she wanted something from me that she couldn't achieve in her life. And what that was was respect, meaning and to be a part of an art movement, to resist being objectified and to make films that matter and that would matter to women of the next generation. And you know, my mom, who grew up in a pre feminist time, just didn't. She didn't have those opportunities to be able to play a part in the next role that women were gonna play.

Terry Gross (15:34)

Did she approve of feminism once it, you know, started really blossoming?

Jodie Foster (15:38)

Oh, yes. Yes. And filled with mixed messages. Like everybody of that era, it was always very confusing, which, you know, anybody who's my age probably has the same stories of their mom saying you can do anything, you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you know, but, you know, make sure you don't ever make a man mad, okay? Because, you know, try to manipulate him and say nice things about, you know, flatter him rather than make him mad. Because making a man mad, you know, there was just a lot of mixed messages of, you know, you can do anything, but you won't be able to take care of yourself. So who are you going to marry that's going to take care of you? And, you know, that's what we do as kids is you rebel against your parents for the things that you feel are not true to your life and that you feel are all fear. They're just throwing fear at you and you reject that to become your own person.

Terry Gross (16:32)

So did you ever take her advice of always flattering men?

Joanna Strober (16:37)

No.

Jodie Foster (16:37)

But I certainly knew when there was a drunken guy in a bar who, you know, I knew to say something nice and try to change the subject and, you know, leave as quickly as I could. I think like any woman who wants to save their life, we know that historically we are in danger.

Tonya Moseley (16:56)

We're listening to Terry Gross's conversation with Jodie Foster. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley, and this is FRESH AIR weekend. Let's get back to Terri's interview with Jodie Foster.

Terry Gross (17:10)

So I want to focus a little on taxi drivers since next month marks the 50th anniversary of its release. So let's start with a clip.

Jodie Foster (17:19)

Amazing.

Terry Gross (17:19)

Yeah. And this is an example of your mother being brilliant in accepting the part for you and of being controversial because she accepted the part for you, because you play a 12 year old and you were 12 when you shot this. And you are what would then be called a prostitute. And today a sex worker who has a pimp played by Harvey Keitel. And Robert De Niro plays Travis Bickle, the taxi driver. And De Niro sees this, and so he wants to buy some time with you to save you. He kind of has a savior complex. So here's a scene where he has tried to talk with you and rescue you, take him away from the pimp but you don't want to be rescued, so he ends up taking you to a diner. He's trying to convince you to go back home, be with your parents and live. Just live a better life. And you speak first.

Jodie Foster (18:25)

Why do you want me to go back to my parents? I mean, they hate me. Why do you think I split in the first place? There ain't nothing there.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (18:34)

Yeah, but you can't live like this. It's a hill. A girl should live at home.

Jodie Foster (18:40)

Didn't you ever hear of women's lib?

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (18:42)

What do you mean, women's lib?

Terry Gross (18:44)

You're a young girl.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (18:45)

You should be at home now. You should be dressed up. You should be going out with boys, you should be going to school. You know, that kind of stuff.

Jodie Foster (18:53)

God, are you square.

Actor in Paul Lynde Show Clip (18:55)

Hey, I'm not square. You're the one that's square. You're full of man. What are you talking about? You walk out with those creeps and lowlifes and degenerates out on the street and you sell your. Sell your little for nothing man for some low life pimp. Stands in a hall. I'm square? You're the one that's square, man.

Terry Gross (19:18)

I think Paul Schrader doesn't ever get quite enough credit for writing this. I mean, people who really know movies, like, think he's made terrific movies. But Scorsese did a brilliant job directing it. But Paul Schrader did a brilliant job writing it. You know, God's Lonely man and all of Travis's monologues. Did you get to talk to Schrader about the screenplay?

Jodie Foster (19:42)

Well, you know, at 12 years old, my mom. If you saw Paul Schrader at that time, he really was Travis Bickle, right? He wore that army jacket and he mumbled a lot. And he stayed up all night and stayed up for hours and hours at a time. My mom didn't want me anywhere near Perturator. She was like, don't talk to him, whatever you do.

Terry Gross (20:02)

Well, that's funny because it's like you can play a prostitute who's 12 years old in the movie, but don't talk to the person who wrote this.

Jodie Foster (20:09)

Well, yeah, look, I was an actor. I finally understood through working with Robert De Niro. Cause he really took the time to show me what acting was, that it wasn't just saying lines that somebody else wrote, that it actually was creating a character. I didn't know that before I was 12.

Terry Gross (20:23)

How did your mother feel about playing, you know, a 12 year old sex worker? And how did you feel about it? How much did you understand what that meant? And also the film has some pretty explicit violence. Mm.

Jodie Foster (20:39)

Yeah. I mean, I think that my mom knew he was a great artist. We loved Mean Streets. We saw it three or four times. My mom saw that I was interested in art and cinema and took me to every foreign film she could find, mostly because she wanted me to hear other languages. But, you know, we went to very dark, interesting German films that lasted eight hours long. And, you know, we saw all the French New wave movies and we had long conversations about movies and what they meant. And I think that she was.

Terry Gross (21:10)

This was before you were 12? Yeah.

Jodie Foster (21:12)

And some of them were inappropriate. You know, some of. There were moments I remember where she'd be like, why don't you go get. Let's go get popcorn. Because there were moments in the film that were not appropriate for a kid.

Terry Gross (21:21)

Too sexual.

Jodie Foster (21:22)

Yeah, yeah. I remember seeing Last Time in Paris and my mom going, like, maybe this is a good time for you to go get a Coke.

Terry Gross (21:29)

There are adults in the ladies room ever look at you and say, what are you doing here?

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (21:36)

Yeah.

Jodie Foster (21:36)

But I also think they admired her. I think they knew that I was. Precocious is a weird word. I think I did have a skill that was beyond my years and I had a strong sense of self. So, you know, I'm not very good at math, I'm not terribly good at science, but I did have a. Almost like an idiot savant ability to understand emotions and character that was beyond my ears.

Terry Gross (22:06)

But you've also said that it was hard for you to express emotion unless you were acting.

Jodie Foster (22:12)

Yes, and thank God I was acting. So it gave me an outlet that I would not have had. I had to develop. It was a sink or swim. I had to develop an emotional side. I had to cut off my brain sometimes to play characters in order to be good. And I wanted to be good, you know, if I was gonna. I wanted to be excellent. So in order to do that, I had to learn emotions and I had to learn not only how to access them, but also how to control them so that I could give them intention.

Terry Gross (22:47)

You've said De Niro state and character during the whole shoot and before it too. So what he would do is take you to a diner and not necessarily say anything.

Jodie Foster (23:00)

Yeah, yeah. He had a very Travis Bickle personality during that shoot. So he was pretty boring. He was very awkward and very boring. And it was difficult for me. I was a 12 year old kid. I was like, oh, God, here comes this guy again. He's Taking me to a diner, and he's gonna not talk for 20 minutes. And I would talk to the waiters. And we also would run lines. So we ran the lines. Sort of a normal rehearsal process where we ran the lines. And I think by the third time, he started doing. Going off and improvising around the lines and encouraging me to do the same and trying to show me how to dip in. So, you know, he would go off on a tangent, some long, improvised tangent. And then I had to find the opportunity for me to place my next line to when was the right time? And really talking about reactions, you know, how does that make you feel? And he really. He was the first person that ever took the time to treat me like an actor.

Terry Gross (23:54)

Was that fun for you, doing those improvs?

Jodie Foster (23:57)

Oh, it was amazing. It was just this huge eureka moment. I'll never forget it. I remember being excited and being kind of sweaty and my heart racing when I came home to the hotel room and came up in the elevator. And I said to my mom, like, wow, I finally get it. Like, I really get it, and I want to be a part of this. And I remember that summer specifically because we were in New York City. So of course we saw a million plays. You know, I saw Pippin and A Little Night Music and Chicago and, you know, just all these Amaz Equus, all these amazing plays. And we also went to see movies. You know, we saw Panic and Needle park and we saw Straw Dogs and all those films of that era. And I suddenly was like, oh, I want to be a part of this amazing thing that I feel passionate about. And it was just. It all happened in a moment.

Terry Gross (24:49)

Jodie Foster, I've enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much for coming back to the show. Thank you and good luck with the new mov and I hope we talk again. Me too.

Tonya Moseley (25:01)

Jodie Foster's latest film is called A Private Life. She spoke with Terry Gross.

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Tessa Thompson (25:20)

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Tonya Moseley (26:14)

Next guest is actor and producer Tessa Thompson. Many of the characters she's played share something in common. They're public facing but privately conflicted, grappling with visibility, identity and control over their own lives. She starred as the warrior Valkyrie in the Marvel Universe, the musician Bianca and the Creed franchise, civil rights strategist Diane Nash in Selma and a woman navigating the fraught boundaries of racial identity in the film Passing and a biracial college student wrestling with racial dynamics in Dear White People. She was also nominated for a Golden Globe in her portrayal of Hedda Nia dacosta's reimagining of Henrik Ibsen's classic play Tessa is also starring in a new murder mystery, the Netflix limited series his and Hers. She plays a once prominent news anchor who returns to the small Georgia town where she grew up after a murder pulls her back into the spotlight. And the detective leading the case is her estranged husband. It doesn't take long to realize they're both hiding something.

Tessa Thompson (27:23)

There are at least two sides to every story, yours and mine, ours and theirs, his and hers, Which means someone is always lying.

Tonya Moseley (27:53)

The series is adapted from Alice Feeney's best selling novel and is structured around competing versions of the Truth. Tessa Thompson, welcome to FRESH air.

Tessa Thompson (28:04)

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (28:07)

Am I right that this is your first lead in a murder mystery?

Tessa Thompson (28:10)

This is my first lead in a murder mystery, yeah. I hadn't thought about that until just now.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (28:15)

You're very intentional in the roles that you choose. I think that most actors are. But there is something that is very specific. I talked about it a little bit in the intro. There's a through line of many of your characters. Many of them are, of course, they're highly intelligent, but they're also deeply self reflective and aware. They use control as a way to survive. Anna, this particular character and his and hers is no exception. And I actually want to play a scene where she's having lunch at a diner with a cameraman. His name is Richard Jones and he's played by Pablo Schreiber and he's married to your nemesis, another news anchor, which I should just say is really real. Like this steps. There's so many photographers who are married to news anchors.

Tessa Thompson (29:01)

It's so true. And there are also so many anchors that have some, you know, testy relationships, which I learned when I did my time shadowing some of them.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (29:10)

Oh, you did?

Tessa Thompson (29:11)

So you shadowed? Yeah, I shadowed, which was. It's just such a delight. I did a ton of it in Atlanta, and I'm so grateful to all the folks there that were so generous with me. But, you know, it's gotten better now. But it has been, you know, for a very long time, a very competitive industry. And for women in particular, there is a scarcity of opportunity which creates its own sort of drama.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (29:31)

Did you go out on stories with them or what was your shadow?

Tessa Thompson (29:33)

Yeah, I got to go out on stories. They got to help me with my copies, so I would send my copy in the show. They would help me rewrite. I got to go in studio and watch them work. It's one of the great, extraordinary pleasures of what I get to do is to really, in the process of preparation and research, to meet so extraordinary, so many extraordinary people that do incredible work and to really get a window into worlds that I think I might know something about. But truly, like anything, you know nothing about it. The closer that you look.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (30:02)

Oh, I'm so curious.

Jodie Foster (30:03)

What did.

Tonya Moseley (30:04)

What's something you learned that was of.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (30:06)

Surprise to you about the job?

Tessa Thompson (30:08)

Something that was really surprising to me is I had always sort of assumed that anchors in particular were people that were just reading the news as opposed to writing it, that they actively are really, you know, writing those stories and have so much to do with that. And then also just being in the room where they're deciding what stories are important or when something's breaking. But, you know, I had a similar thing just sitting across from you, because when I played Sam in Dear White People and got to play someone that worked in a radio station, in a radio station, I still, every time I do a podcast or I'm in a radio station, I have, like, a rush of that feeling again, because I just loved doing it. I just so enjoyed doing it. Sometimes when I play parts, this isn't always the case, but sometimes it feels like I get a sense of a window of, like, another trajectory I might have taken were I not an actor. You know, sometimes I find things that I go, God, I probably would have really loved to do this thing. And doing what you do is one of those things. I thought When I was working on it. Goodness. I really like this.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (31:11)

I have this clip that I want to play where, as I mentioned, she's sitting with this camera and he's married to her nemesis, and she's talking to him about the perils of being married to a news anchor. And so she's talking about her nemesis, but she's also talking about herself in that same way. Let's listen.

Tessa Thompson (31:34)

Richard Jones married to rising star Lexi Jones. What's that like? Exciting. Lonely. Right. Friends tell you it must be exciting to have a celebrity wife or what passes for a celebrity in Atlanta. But it's not, is it? People recognize her in the grocery store, ask you to take their photo next to her. You're invisible. She leaves at 2 for the 4 and the 6, and she stays for the 11. And there's meetings after, so she doesn't get home until after 1. You're already asleep. So goodbye, sex. She makes five times more money than you do. Oh, no. Oh. And you're happy that she does, but it creates an imbalance. So happy or not, it hurts you both.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (32:33)

Okay. I love this scene because it also is so accurate.

Tonya Moseley (32:38)

Sorry.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (32:38)

I just was in this world for so long.

Tessa Thompson (32:40)

Yeah, right.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (32:41)

And, you know, there are often these shows that try to portray this world, and they never quite get it right. But this particular piece seemed to do that. But what strikes me the most is that she's talking about her nemesis, but.

Tessa Thompson (32:54)

She'S also talking about herself.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (32:55)

She's talking about herself. Take me to that scene. Take me to that particular piece of dialogue.

Tessa Thompson (33:01)

So, as I said, I would lean on some of my, you know, new friends who worked in the space to go through my copy. But also with that scene, as we were developing it, I also asked them, like, what feels right? You know, Anna is someone who is newly back or trying to regain her footing in her professional world and meanwhile is having to contend with a lot of choices that she made in her personal life. And so I think you get to see her in this moment. She's someone that deflects a lot and is probably projecting onto Richard, but really, she is really talking about herself.

Tonya Moseley (33:43)

If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Tessa Thompson. She stars in the new Netflix murder mystery series his and Hers. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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Tonya Moseley (35:00)

Let'S get back to my interview with Tessa Thompson. She's starring in the new limited series his and Hers, a true crime thriller on Netflix. Over the last decade, Tessa Thompson has built a career spanning blockbuster films, television and independent cinema. She's known for her roles in Dear White People, Creed Ragnarok and other Marvel movies, Sorry to Bother your and Passing. She began her career in theater before moving into television and film. She starred in Nia DaCosta's feature debut Little woods, and has continued to collaborate with her on subsequent projects, including DaCosta's Hedda, an interpretation of Henrik Ibsen's classic play Hedda Gabler.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (35:45)

Your first TV role before Veronica Mars, because people talk about Veronica Mars as your breakthrough role, but before any of that, you were a lesbian bootlegger from the 1930s on the show Cold Case. And I said, this is beginning to.

Tessa Thompson (35:59)

Feel like a theme, just like a period lesbian, just a lesbian of the past, a lesbian of a bygone.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (36:07)

Well, guys, you were so young, I was so young, and I thought, what a hell of a way to start, you know. But you talked about being drawn to characters that don't fit neatly who, you know, they cross lines, they resist categories. Where does that actually come from, though? You know, you go out and you audition or whoever represents you says, oh, here's a role for you to go to to audition for. But, like, this is a pretty specific role to say, like, I want to go for this, you know.

Tessa Thompson (36:39)

Yes. I mean, the truth is, early in your career as an actor, if you're someone like me that doesn't have any folks in Hollywood, in my family, I was like cold calling agents, you know, I was like sending my little resume. I put together like a little collage and a handwritten note, and I would send it out to agents around town I mean, it was, like, very scrappy in those early days. But I remember that Cold Case audition came after I'd had, like, a lot of commercial auditions, which I never had any luck at. You know, you never got one. Oh, I'd be holding a pizza box. And I just found the whole process really challenging. I was not very good at it. It convinced me that I was probably not a very good actor because I couldn't do any of the things that they wanted me to do at these commercial castings. And also, typically, you'd be, like, one of, like, 85 people that look vaguely like you, just in, like, slightly different outfits. And I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it this way, but I remember when Cold Came came through. I thought, oh, my goodness, this is so fascinating because it aligned with so many of the things I already loved, and one of which was research. I was like, oh, I get to do so much research into the time. And then I remember when I got the part, I went to. I think it was on the Universal lot. Got to go to their costume archives. And, you know, the suit that I'm wearing in it is an actual boy's suit from that time, from the period. And I remember just thinking, like, wow, if this is what it's like to work in TV and film. Because that was my very first time doing it. I was like, I never want to stop. This is extraordinary, this collage that you.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (38:13)

Made with these little handwritten notes. That's something that is a through line that I see in a lot of the roles that you ultimately got. I mean, there's this story about you writing Tyler Perry. First off, you sent a tape to Tyler Perry for Colored Girls.

Tessa Thompson (38:33)

Yes.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (38:34)

After you heard that the film was already cast.

Tessa Thompson (38:37)

Yes, I heard it was cast, but I knew, sadly, because I think she would have been extraordinary. Jurnee Smollett had to fall out of it. And so I got a call. I was in the supermarket at the time, I'll never forget, and I got a call from my then agent who said, journey has to leave this. I know you love this play because for colored girls who considered Suicide, When Rainbow's Enough is one of the first plays I fell in love with. I still have my hard copy that I stole. Sorry, from the Brooklyn Library. I still own it. I'm so sorry. I will pay you whatever I owe you, but I just devoured that play and read it so many times and loved it. And so my agent at the time knew that and said, they're Making a movie version of it. And there's a part in it for you. How soon could you send a tape? And I went home immediately from the market and recorded a tape and sent it to Tyler and sent him a note just about. I don't even remember what I said, maybe just how much I love the play.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (39:34)

Yes. I mean, for colored Girls. It's a raw, poetic exploration of what it means to be black and a woman in America.

Tonya Moseley (39:42)

And you are alongside all of these.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (39:44)

Titans when you go back and watch it. Whoopi Goldberg, Kerry Washington, Thandie Newton, Phylicia Rashad. What did you absorb being among them?

Tessa Thompson (39:54)

Janet Jackson.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (39:55)

Janet Jackson. How could I forget Janet Jackson?

Tessa Thompson (39:57)

Literally, all of the women. All. I cannot tell you. All of the women I watched my whole childhood. I mean, so many of these women had such an incredible impact on me. I remember the first time I saw Tandy Newton in that film Gridlock. My dad showed it to me and was like, you gotta see this woman. I mean, all of their work collectively. Janet Jackson. I was her for three times at Halloween. I used to know all of. I mean, very poorly. But the Rhythm Nation dance, I could do that as a child.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (40:30)

Wait, three times. So Rhythm Nation and what other eras of Janet?

Tessa Thompson (40:35)

Rhythm Nation Twice.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (40:39)

It's a good one.

Jodie Foster (40:40)

It's a good one.

Tessa Thompson (40:41)

Rhythm Nation Twice.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (40:43)

Yeah, You've got the hair today.

Tessa Thompson (40:44)

That's true. I do have the hair today. I mean, I'm always trying to be Janet, but these women meant so, so, so much to me. And so being on that set with them was just, I mean, like, pinching myself every single day. But also I feel like I'm so, so deeply aware all the time of just how we're in relation to each other. You know, the women that both came before me, many of them still working today.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (41:10)

Absolutely.

Tessa Thompson (41:11)

The women that are working currently that feel like they're coming after me, the women that will come after them, I just spend a lot of time energetically feeling connected to. To black women inside of this business. Because I just know from watching film and television growing up that it meant so much. It shaped so much of my ideas of self seeing black women on screen.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (41:42)

I want to ask you about your parents and in particular your father, Mark Anthony Thompson. He's a musician. I have so many questions I want to ask you about growing up with parents who were artists, but in particular your father. He was always photographing you, always filming you. What do you remember? Take me there. What do you remember about being on the other side of his camera?

Tessa Thompson (42:10)

Yeah. He loved. He always had cameras, whether it was a Super 8 or a digital camera or a still camera. He loved images. Still does. But then it was relentless. He was always recording and he would use me to test light. And so he just sort of needed a subject. But then we graduated eventually and I could use him as my cameraman and my cinematographer. So I would come up with these stories and then I would tell him and sort of direct him and he would shoot them. And some of them actually were quite elaborate. I cast my older sister very begrudgingly, who is deathly shy just in general, but camera shy especially. And so she's in one of those early films that we made.

MIDI Health Announcer (42:55)

I don't know.

Tessa Thompson (42:56)

I think I remember a sense of feeling a tremendous amount of excitement and abandon. You know, I was lit up by a camera's presence. It was actually later in life when I began working professionally that I had to build a new relationship with a camera. But then it's no self consciousness at all, just an excitement and being able to capture. And then my dad would also, because we drive around Hollywood a lot, he would hand me the camera. So I would get to record a lot too. And I really loved that. I loved being able to see life through. It made even the most mundane thing exciting. Suddenly to get to see it behind.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (43:47)

A lens, that's so powerful because I just. It makes me think about your ability to clearly see the people you want to work with and how you want to work with them. And if those foundational experiences with your father were pretty foundational in you understanding how it feels and what you need from. From the people that you work with.

Tessa Thompson (44:10)

Yeah, I hadn't even connected that. But you're so right because I think obviously it's my dad. And there's such a kind of intimacy and trust. And trust. And so there's absolute freedom. You're right. Maybe I'm always chasing that. Now.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (44:27)

He's a musician. Chocolate genius, really. He had several different arcs in his career as a musician. But I'm always fascinated by the neo soul era because that was just a special era of a time when it was a bringing back of music in such an intentional way and musicality in such an intentional way. And I know that you are. That's another form of storytelling for you. You did it in Creed, where you were a musician who was writing music, but also you wrote music as part of it. Can you talk a little bit about how music kind of plays into your. Your storytelling as well? Do you see yourself as a musician?

Tessa Thompson (45:07)

I don't see myself as a musician. No. Just because I know if anything, like, it's requisite. It's sort of like an eat, sleep, breathe. It is your world. And music is not necessarily. But it has such a huge place in my world. And I think in terms of formative early experiences, a lot of those films that I would make with my dad or that time of creation, was also at a time when he lived in his studio. So when I would be spending, because my parents weren't together, I would spend time with my father. And when I was spending time with my father, I was in Hollywood in this studio. So there were so many people coming in and out in creation, and I would be playing or watching a movie while my dad would be recording. And so there was this sense of constant music around and constant kind of creation. And I still work in a very similar way. When I'm working on something, music is a huge part of how I'm beginning process and character and understanding character. There's so much that happens with sort of connecting kind of a sonic landscape with an emotional landscape. And so I think that had a huge influence on me, for sure.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (46:19)

Your mom, you all are extremely close. And I want to read something that you said about her. It was at an ESSENCE Black Women in Hollywood Luncheon back in 2020. So you said something pretty poignant about your mother and your grandfather. And here's the quote. I want to acknowledge someone who is not black and is not in the room because she couldn't be, but it's my mother. Her father, my grandfather, was of Mexican descent. He was a performer in a time where there was very few of them, and he was the only very often. And I think because of this, he had a real pressure to assimilate because he didn't want my mother to speak Spanish. And I was just really struck by the fact that you wanted to acknowledge her in this room. You wanted to say the sacrifices that she made allowed you to be in that room, and also her understanding of identity in that way. How did your mother's experience actually help you hold on to the parts of yourself in this world as you navigate trying to pinpoint the storyteller you are?

Tessa Thompson (47:22)

Yeah. Firstly, I think she. She really recognized because I was doing plays in school, and one of my early productions, I remember she came, and I had never seen her look at me that way. I think it was the moment that she realized that I had found something that was gonna occupy really, so much of my heart and life. And then separately, I think as someone that grew up, you know, I remember, and I think her father was just trying to give her the best odds, but, for example, suggesting that maybe she change her name on a resume to sound less ethnic because it might help her get jobs. And in fact, it did. It worked. He was not wrong, you know, in the 1980s, but I think my mom really wanting to make sure that I didn't feel like I had to make any concessions of self, that I could show up exactly as I was. And she did it in really small ways. For example, I remember very early on wanting to straighten my hair, to get my hair chemically straightened. And my mom was very sweet and very generous, and she's like, we can investigate the whole process and do it. And we investigated everything. I had had like a series of very terrible blowouts that the weather didn't agree with. And she was like, whatever makes you happy. But she outlined everything for me. And finally it was my ch. I said, no, I want to keep my hair just like this. And I remember when I made that choice, she cried because she was so happy. But she had given the choice to me, you know, and I think that was just an early indication that was so helpful for me. Then when I navigated Hollywood and eventually was on sets where people deeply decided that I had to straighten my hair or that I had to look one way or another, my mom gave me an early sense of. Of self enough that I could say, no, actually, I want to look like myself. And I'm not sure that I would have known how to do that were it not for my mother.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (49:37)

You know what? I also note, based on what you shared about your mother, and in particular that speech you gave at that women's luncheon where you said, I want to acknowledge this woman who's not in the room. I mean, oftentimes when we're talking about your identity, it is really focused on your blackness. Yeah, but you are biracial and your mother is white and Mexican. And so she's really not in the rooms when we talk about black discourse. But this sounds like she was such a fundamental part in you understanding who you are.

Tessa Thompson (50:09)

Yeah. And also I think she did a really phenomenal job at raising a mixed race daughter and like connecting me to my black identity and making sure that I was like in those spaces and taking me out of private schools that were completely white, where I was the only kid of color in there on scholarship and understanding what that felt like.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (50:36)

You know, you were even homeschooled for a while.

Tessa Thompson (50:38)

Yeah, because I was to able in a school system that, frankly was racist and not great. And I was bullied in that school. And she understood how detrimental that was to me at a very young age. And we didn't have the money to get to a better school district. And so she took me out of school and homeschooled me until we could.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (51:00)

Yay for moms.

Tessa Thompson (51:01)

Yay for moms.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (51:04)

Something interesting about you is you had. You may have more, but I don't know this, but you have two tattoos, one that is a yes yes, and.

Tonya Moseley (51:15)

Then one that's a no yes.

Tessa Thompson (51:18)

The yes is bigger and more visible to audiences than the no is. But, you know, I got the yes first, and then many years later, I thought I needed to get the no for good measure. But I think. And they're on separate arms. I do think I'm constantly wrestling. I think I wrestle with my cynicism and my optimism. I think they're always in because that's what they were.

MIDI Health Announcer (51:39)

Tussle.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (51:39)

There's the optimism and there's the cynicism, but why did the cynicism need to happen a few years later with the no after this big declarative yes?

Tessa Thompson (51:50)

It was a reminder to myself that we are as much defined by the things that we don't do than by the things that we do. And I think I needed to be reminded to say no. I think I'm partially because of my optimism and boundless energy, I'm someone that's inclined to say yes. And also I think in this industry, there is a perceived feeling of scarcity. And so I think you're constantly kind of like, what's next? What's. You know, and sometimes it breeds a yes. That maybe should have been. That should have been a very polite no.

Tonya Moseley (52:29)

Tessa Thompson, this has been such a pleasure.

Tessa Thompson (52:31)

Thank you. The pleasure's been all mine. Thanks so much for having me.

Tonya Moseley (52:35)

Tessa Thompson stars in the new Netflix series his and hers. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Bradley. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annmarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman, Susan Yakundi and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi.

Interviewer with Tessa Thompson (53:15)

Nesper with Terry Gross.

Tonya Moseley (53:17)

I'm Tanya Moseley.

MIDI Health Announcer (53:21)

This message comes from Midi health co founders Dr. Kathleen Jordan and CEO Joanna Strober discuss why they started a virtual care platform for women in perimenopause and menopause.

Tessa Thompson (53:33)

The symptoms and experiences that women have in midlife I think were underappreciated or possibly even trivialized. The changes of perimenopause and menopause create a broad spectrum of symptoms and can actually lead to long term health issues, but too few clinicians are trained in it.

Joanna Strober (53:49)

I also want to add often the type of care that women are needing is very iterative. It requires trying different medications, learning about their body and learning how to take care of themselves. And so what we've tried to do at MIDI Health is create a new type of care system that is responsive to women's needs and helps them take care of themselves and stay healthy instead of just treating disease.

MIDI Health Announcer (54:12)

Mitih Health committed to helping women in midlife with perimenopause and menopause care. Accessible via telehealth visits@joinmidi.com this message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify no idea where to Sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level. Today.