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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels. With over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else, Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com hi, it's Terry Gross.
- [00:21]
Unknown NPR Host
Before we start our show, I want to take a minute to remind you that it's almost Giving Tuesday, which is so named because it's become a day of expressing gratitude by giving money or any kind of help to an individual, individual or group or organization that matters to you. We've found a way to turn Giving Tuesday into Giving and Getting Tuesday. If you subscribe to NPR plus in return, you'll be getting special bonus episodes from a bunch of NPR podcasts. These bonus episodes are available only to NPR subscribers. On FRESH air's Bonus Episodes, you'll hear hosted, curated, timely interviews from our archive every week. NPR members also get to listen to all NPR podcasts without interruptions from sponsors. And the subscription is a tax deductible donation. It's a win, win. So join us at plus.npr.org that's plus.npr.org or you can always make a gift at donate.npr.org thank you and thanks to everyone who's already supporting us. And now on with the show from.
- [01:30]
Tonya Moseley
WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, John David and Malcolm Washington join me to discuss bringing the August Wilson play the Piano Lesson to the screen for Netflix. It's about a brother and sister battling over what to do with the family heirloom piano and the production of It Was a family Affair that included their sister Katia, and their father, Denzel Washington, who both served as producers. We also hear from Selena Gomez. She stars in the new Spanish language musical Emilia Perez. Gomez plays the wife of a brutal drug cartel leader who decides to undergo gender affirmation surgery. Gomez had to relearn Spanish to take on the role after losing her fluency as a kid. And film critic Justin Chang reviews Gladiator 2 and the musical Wicked. That's coming up on FRESH AIR. Weekend.
- [02:34]
Terry Gross
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Saatva Saatva Luxury mattresses are every bit as elegant as the most expensive brands, but because they're sold online, they're about half the price. Visit saatva.com NPR and save up to $600. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels, offering over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences. From medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com this message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from Apple Card Apple Card is the perfect card for your holiday shopping. When you use Apple Card on your iPhone, you'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including products at Apple like a new iPhone or Apple Watch Ultra. Apply now in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and.
- [04:01]
Tonya Moseley
More@Applecard.Com this is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley and today my guests are Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's the Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that captures the black American experience through every decade of the 20th century. Malcolm serves as the director and John David stars as the brash, impulsive and fast talking boy Willie, who wants to sell the family piano to buy land in Mississippi that his family was enslaved on. The family battle ensues between Boy Willie and his sister Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, who wants the family to hold onto the piano, a family heirloom engraved with their ancestors faces. The production of this film was a family affair. The brothers, sister Katia and their father, Oscar winning Denzel Washington, are producers. And Denzel, who starred and co produced in Wilson's Fences, has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films. Their mother, Pauletta Washington, even appears in the movie, starring as Mama Ola. The Piano Lesson is Malcolm Washington's directorial debut for a feature film, and John David portrayed Boy Willie in the Broadway revival of the Piano Lesson. He's also starred in several films, including Spike Lee's BlackKklansman and Christopher Nolan's Time Travel Mindbender Tenet. John David and Malcolm Washington, welcome to FRESH air.
- [05:36]
John David Washington
Thank you for having us. Hello.
- [05:37]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, thank you. That was quite an introduction. I was like, whoa.
- [05:40]
Tonya Moseley
Well, I want to get right into our discussion about the film by playing a clip. And the story takes place in 1936. Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, lives in Pittsburgh with the piano and her brother, Boy Willie, played by you. John David, is a sharecropper in their hometown of Mississippi. And he's driven up to Pittsburgh in hopes of persuading Bernice to sell. And their uncle, played by Samuel L. Jackson, explains why Bernice won't do it. He speaks first. Let's listen.
- [06:11]
Selena Gomez
Bernice ain't gonna sell that piano. Cause her daddy died of it.
- [06:21]
Tonya Moseley
All.
- [06:21]
John David Washington
That's in the past. If my daddy had seen what he could have traded that piano and for some land of his own, wouldn't be sitting up here now. He spent his whole life farming somebody else's land. I ain't going to do that.
- [06:44]
Tonya Moseley
That was my guest today, John David Washington with Samuel L. Jackson in the Netflix film the Piano Lesson, directed by my other guest, Malcolm Washington. And you know, this is such a black American story that endures that yearning to pass down items of value up against this very real and often desperate need to sell for practical reasons, or in Boy Willie's case, to gamble towards this American dream of owning land. And I want to start by asking you, Malcolm, what was it about this story that you felt was not only enduring, but an urgent one that needed to be retold now?
- [07:24]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, I think it's really, really, really important for people to learn their history, both ancestral and just culturally, know where you come from and acknowledge it. Because we're living in a time where people are trying to rewrite history or erase people from history and their contributions. So it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to reclaim our stories, you know, and proclaim them and declare them who we are as a people, who we are as a culture and identity. All these things are super urgent to reclaim.
- [08:02]
Tonya Moseley
You also wanted to bring a modern touch to this. And I mean, August Wilson is one of the greatest playwrights of our time. So, I mean, this material is just right. But I can imagine that's also intimidating, possibly. What was your first step in bringing your director's touch to what is well established material?
- [08:23]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, it was intimidating, but it was also very exciting. The first step was putting this in a context, right? A historical context, understanding the moment that the play was written in, the moment that it's speaking to, that it's set in. It was about learning as much as I could about August Wilson, his considerations as a writer, who he was as a man, where he's from, what he stood on his belief system, understand all these things about him and his intentions so that you can kind of pass it through the prism of yourself and bring your voice to it, but always trying to serve this kind of bigger thing.
- [09:01]
Tonya Moseley
John David, in the scene that we played, you were in character with Samuel L. Jackson, who actually originally played boy Willie in 1987. And in this film, he plays the uncle to Bernice. And Boy Willie, his performance, it's quiet, it's contemplative. He exudes kind of like this wise, knowing as he watches you. And for me, it was a little bit emotional. I'm, like, going through this moment where I'm looking at all of our actors as we move through time and they age. It was just emotional to watch, knowing his history with the character. What was it like for you to watch him watch you both in the Broadway version and in this movie?
- [09:48]
John David Washington
That's an interesting observation, because I think that was happening for me, too. Just his relationship to the play, which he's been, you know, very public about, and what he represents as a black African American actor in this industry. There was a lot of things working at the same time. Well, we can start with the word intimidating right there. You know, pressure filled is some words also that come to mind when thinking about or reflecting about my experience, particularly on stage every night, saying these words that he's perfected, that he helped sort of erect and get to Broadway, you know, so there was a lot of pressure there. But I felt so encouraged because of how he supported us. As I gradually got into it and grew into the character, I realized how much how beneficial it was for me to hear those stories and infuse that into the motivation of getting this thing as true as possible.
- [10:45]
Tonya Moseley
He was supportive of you guys talking to you about, like, the industry and the craft. But, like, did he talk to you about this character, or did he kind of leave that to you to interpret it?
- [10:56]
John David Washington
Things that were working, he would comment on. Like, I never thought to do it that way, or I never thought about it this way, and he said that. And if, you know, Mr. Sam Jackson, he's a tough critic. So any kind of positive feedback from him is like, I'm taken to my grave if I ever work again. I know Sam Jackson liked the choice I made, you know what I mean? So in that regard, yeah, he was influential in my encouragement of I'm on the right track.
- [11:25]
Tonya Moseley
I'm really curious, John David, why do you think actors in particular are drawn to Wilson's work kind of as a way to deepen their craft I'm thinking about all of the actors that are really well known today who have gone through and done these playscourtney B. Vance, James Earl Jones, Viola Davis, your father, Denzel, so many others. What is the gravitational pull?
- [11:56]
John David Washington
I think so often we have to dig. When we find really good writing, great writing, we still have to dig. These names you're talking about, we have to dig, we have to find it. You know, we excavate, we research and we have to meet a lot of the writing, the really good writing. Somewhere August Wilson comes to us and it's a relief when you get a voice that is yours, when you get a voice that is somebody you're related to, when you get an experience that both a 50 year old, 70 year old man, a 20 to 40 year old man have. There's so many specific moments in our culture that he accurately depicts. I'm talking about when every n word is properly placed. You know, there's magic to that. To be honest, if we meet August Wilson with our best and most honest self and experience, you will come out a different actor.
- [12:55]
Tonya Moseley
If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, the Piano Lesson. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [13:09]
Terry Gross
This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that. That's why with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Inc. Registered broker Dealer Registered Investment Advisor member.
- [13:38]
Justin Chang
SIPC this message comes from NPR sponsor ThinkFun. Looking for that purr fect gift for the holidays? Love a game that's more than just solving the challenge? ThinkFun's Crash Cats has the challenge of a logic game with the excitement of cats flying through the air. Set up the board and then slide the pieces to get the cats to Launch. Designed for kids 8 + who want excitement in their gameplay. Mark pure joy off your holiday list with the gift of Crash Cats, now available@Amazon.com this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND.
- [14:13]
Tonya Moseley
I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my interview with Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play the Piano Lesson for the Screen. The production of this Film was a family affair. The brothers, sister Katia, and their father, Denzel Washington, are the film's producers. Denzel has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films. The plays capture the black American experience through every decade of the 20th century. Your names? Malcolm and John David. Where do those names come from? I can kind of guess with Malcolm, but I want to be sure.
- [14:55]
John David Washington
Well, I guess I'll start, because mine's a little more controversial, if you will. I found out later what I mean is. I'll explain. So John David, from what I thought known until I was about 17, was my uncle David and my great grandfather John. One night after a victory. It was a high school football game, and we beat our rivals, and we're one game away from the state championship. We're very excited. We're all happy. We're home celebrating and just screaming out loud how great of a victory it was. And my father, in his joy and great glee, he says, that's why I named you John David, after John David Crow, a football player and the record scratched. Cause I guess that was the first time my mom heard that. Definitely the first time I heard that, I didn't mind it. That's cool. But mom was like, what? And then she got quiet. And it's interesting how quietness can bring on more anger than yelling, you know? And you can tell she was disturbed by that a little bit. She was like, but Denzel, I thought he was named after uncle David, your brother and grandpa John. And he kind of like, yeah, yeah.
- [16:01]
Malcolm Washington
But he's like, no, but the truth is.
- [16:04]
John David Washington
But really, it was a combination.
- [16:06]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah. So they had different stories on it.
- [16:09]
John David Washington
They got different stories.
- [16:10]
Selena Gomez
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Tonya Moseley
Malcolm X. Is that who you were named after or not?
- [16:14]
Malcolm Washington
Actually, no. No, I'm named after. He's a cousin of mine, but he's our dynamic in age. He's like an uncle. My cousin Malcolm from Eden, North Carolina.
- [16:27]
Tonya Moseley
All right. Big ups to cousin Malcolm. Yeah, I noticed.
- [16:33]
John David Washington
And John David Crowe, by the way.
- [16:35]
Malcolm Washington
Exactly. Don't leave John David Crowe out.
- [16:37]
Tonya Moseley
Right? That's right. That's right. Both cousins, Right, Right. You know, I noticed how in interviews, both of you guys, you kind of say it offhandedly, but you regularly rep Los Angeles as your hometown. And I want to know what does it mean for the both of you to identify not only as Angelenos, but, you know, your black Angelenos, and then you also come from, like, a very privileged section of that then as well. I mean, how did growing up here influence your art and your taste?
- [17:11]
Malcolm Washington
I love LA so much. I think LA's just an incredible city. There's so many amazing cultures that come together there. It's like. It's a place that's both a physical place and metaphysical. And that when people think about, like, there's an idea of what LA is and then there's kind of a lived experience of what LA is. So I like that it operates on a couple different fronts. I think that it, like, functions kind of like how Pittsburgh functions in our story the Piano Lesson, where it's a place especially for black people. It's a place where, in the Great Migration, so many black people came in search of opportunity to build a new life, to build themselves up. So it's a place built off of not only the hopes, but the labor of dreams. You know, like, somebody had to build that place. And I think that it lives in. It lives in that, you know.
- [18:07]
Tonya Moseley
You know, as a kid growing up in the 90s, you're Father Denzel, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson, I'll even throw in, like, Eddie Murphy. And just so many people, they played such a big role in the construction of Black pride for so many, myself included. And I'm just. I really want to know how that felt internally, to grow up among it. And in it, like, was black history and Black pride also something that your parents instilled in you in the way that, like, just to the public, they were instilling in all of us.
- [18:43]
Malcolm Washington
Absolutely. You know, I grew up with such a strong consciousness, and you got to remember, like, I grew up in the era of my dad, having played Malcolm X, you know, so I identify with Malcolm X as a figure. I identify with that part of our story. And growing up in LA in the 90s, post LA uprising, you know, where black people have a voice, they're fighting for something they're believing in something they're saying, something. I connected to that so much so that it's like how Boy Willie says, you know, I was born in a time of fire. It's like, I feel that too, you know, that resonates with me from both the creative artistic movements that were happening at the time, the political movements that were happening at the time, of people declaring themselves and who they are at the time. And so all of those things live in me. And I'm happy that my parents had such a pride in our culture, have such a respect for it and instill that in us.
- [19:41]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah, John? David?
- [19:45]
John David Washington
Yeah, I think I was just thinking about your question. In my childhood, you know, my first time I played Pop Warner football Tackle football was Baldwin Hills.
- [19:54]
Tonya Moseley
And Baldwin Hills is a neighborhood in Los Angeles for those who don't know.
- [19:59]
John David Washington
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And. But yet I was going to school in the Valley, you know, and, you know, I remember the first time I got chased down by some Crips, you know, in Los Angeles with a friend of mine. You know, I remember first time being asked, where you from? You know, and where your mom? All that. Like, there's a Kendrick part of it, too. He's like, well, where your mama stay? Where your grandma stay? I've experienced that before, you know, at Magic Johnson's movie theater. So what would you tell people?
- [20:28]
Tonya Moseley
Because, I mean, were you saying, oh, I'm Denzel Washington's son?
- [20:31]
John David Washington
I would absolutely not say that. You know, it was funny, like, and it was depicted in the wood. Like, the character says, I'm from North Carolina. I would say that. I'm like, I'm actually. I would deny. I would deny where I was from and say I was from another state a lot of times. But I forget why they were chasing us. At one time, it was a friend of mine that started stuff.
- [20:47]
Malcolm Washington
You know why?
- [20:48]
John David Washington
I do know why. Actually, I'm not gonna call him out here. But I think about some of those memories of my LA experience because it is an interesting one because of the blends of cultures that I was able to experience. You know, going to private school, yet playing ball, Baldwin Hills, having friends that lived in different neighborhoods. You know, I just got a full course meal in diversity.
- [21:10]
Tonya Moseley
I want to ask you guys about something else, and I want to see if I can formulate it right. But, like, how do you deal with the heat of fandom and desire? Because, I mean, your dad, for instance, is not only a great actor. You're already laughing, but your dad's already known. Of course he's a great actor, but he's also like, every mom and every auntie's crush and.
- [21:35]
John David Washington
Fine in every generation, right? Or something.
- [21:37]
Tonya Moseley
Fine in every generation, right? And now you guys are continuing the torch. I actually just picked up an LA magazine, and John David, you're on the COVID looking like a sex symbol, you know?
- [21:47]
Malcolm Washington
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let the people know.
- [21:49]
John David Washington
Oh, boy. Just let them not know.
- [21:50]
Tonya Moseley
Okay, I'm just curious.
- [21:53]
John David Washington
What's the question?
- [21:55]
Malcolm Washington
That's it.
- [21:56]
John David Washington
Yeah.
- [21:58]
Terry Gross
Period.
- [21:58]
Tonya Moseley
No, period. What did, like, I'm wondering, what did your dad teach you? Or what lessons did you learn from watching him? When it comes to navigating that energy and that heat that, like, throngs of fans throw towards You. Cause, I mean, I can't even imagine what your DMs might be like, you know.
- [22:15]
Malcolm Washington
Oh, my God.
- [22:18]
John David Washington
Who'S listening to this? This is. Let's Keep it peace. No, it's like, honestly, what I think about childhood memories, you know, My dad bringing home a trumpet. You know, I remember him, he dyed his hair red, getting ready for red in Malcolm X. Him walking me around the streets of New York reciting Shakespeare when he was getting ready for Richard iii, you know, so I've always been, you know, fascinated with that. My mom sat down and played a number, a classical number on the piano without reading the notes. The notes. You know, I think about that, of that, really. I think that's the relationship. That's what was being taught. It seems like it was always, to me, it's always been about the work. That's what they both teach us.
- [22:57]
Tonya Moseley
They both teach you that. But, like, there's no denying that there's also that other thing. And I just wanna know how you navigate it, both of you.
- [23:06]
Malcolm Washington
I think that they just, like, they were so protective of themselves first and us as well, you know, they always just highlighted, like, keeping the noise outside. And I think that heat and desire that you're speaking of can be that noise, you know, And I. That we all just live very kind of meaningful, private lives. And I don't have that heat and desire in my DMs, so I don't have to deal with, you know, I don't have to deal with it in the same way John David does as an actor. And his face is out there all the time. But I think that they just.
- [23:42]
John David Washington
Weren't you on gq? Wasn't there a GQ thing.
- [23:48]
Malcolm Washington
With you, brother?
- [23:49]
John David Washington
With your well moisturized lips? And I was moisturized the goatee and the hair was hairing.
- [23:54]
Malcolm Washington
It was a full beard.
- [23:55]
John David Washington
Yeah, the braids were braiding. Yeah.
- [23:58]
Malcolm Washington
But for real, I think it's just like the kind of focus and protection of your peace and yourself and not kind of getting swept up and all the other stuff.
- [24:08]
John David Washington
They made it clear, too, that, like, this is theirs. Y'all gotta earn yours. You know what I mean? It's like it's them taking us to school. It's my dad coaching us. We were living somewhat of, I think, a normal life because that's the environment they set. We celebrated Christmas. We would go trick or treating on Halloween. You know, it was a lot of that going on.
- [24:31]
Tonya Moseley
Both of you make. You make such a strong point. And it's beautiful to see, but every chance you get, you remind people that you're the sons of both Denzel and Pauletta, and they be trying to erase.
- [24:44]
Malcolm Washington
My mom out here. We love our parents. You know, we love both of them. And. And you know what saddens me sometimes about that is, like, man, just like, the role that mothers play, that black women play in our culture, that black mothers play, it's like, such a crucial one, and they're often such an overlooked position sometimes, like, people don't give them their flowers. So, yeah, we're gonna give our mom our flowers. We love her. She's done so much for us.
- [25:13]
John David Washington
And to piggyback on that, to celebrate the woman she was before she was a mother, before she was a wife. You know, both my brother and her have their masters in the artistry. The only ones in the family that do. So, like, that's important to me, too. And we both carry that with us when we approach the art. That's part of the reason we love it as well, knowing that she's an artist in her own right. So it's to piggyback on what you said. Cause I think that's a great point about women.
- [25:42]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah. What's her reaction to you guys making that statement and stating it so clear? Cause as a mother, I just always smile like I want my children to be speaking my name out in the world like that. Yeah.
- [25:54]
Malcolm Washington
And can you imagine? You know what I mean? Can you imagine? It's like they've gotten to, like, an impossible situation. You know, it's like my dad growing up first in Harlem and then Mount Vernon, and just kind of like where he's ascended to in his.
- [26:09]
John David Washington
He be claiming Harlem like that.
- [26:10]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah. What you mean, Harlem?
- [26:13]
John David Washington
Harlem, yeah.
- [26:15]
Malcolm Washington
And then, God forbid, he meets somebody from Mount Vernon, and then it's like, what's Harlem? You know? But, yeah, you know, they both overcome and made such incredible lives for themselves. And I think we carry pride of coming from such strong, you know, people that live a purposeful life.
- [26:37]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah. John David, the older you get, the more and more you sound like your dad. Do you guys get confused at all in listening, like, on the phone or not?
- [26:47]
John David Washington
I used to.
- [26:48]
Malcolm Washington
Yes. I used to call the house. I used to call the house. And of course you have that thing which, you know, when you're 16, 17, maybe staying out a little late or something, or the report card came in, it wasn't perfect. And you call the house and you're like, oh, I hope my sister picks up. I hope my brother picks up. And John David would pick up. But he would sound just like my dad. Hello. Oh, my goodness. I would get some. I would stand straight up no matter where I was at.
- [27:14]
John David Washington
Dang. I guess I can't deny it.
- [27:16]
Malcolm Washington
It's always been like that.
- [27:18]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah. Do you think you'll adapt any more of August Wilson's plays?
- [27:24]
Malcolm Washington
You know what, I think that there's a really wonderful thing happening now where so far there's three films. There's been three different filmmakers and three different voices that have come to them. And each of the films kind of reflect the voice of the filmmaker so far. Like my dad with fences, Mr. Wolf with, you know, he's incredible theater director. And I think that you can see that talent at work in Ma Rainey. My voice is different from theirs and I think you see that in Piano Lesson. So I hope that for the rest of them they continue to get varied voices from different backgrounds and different kind of points of view and let this whole thing be a much larger kind of project where you look back and it's this tapestry of black artists working this time, connecting to this seminal texts.
- [28:11]
Tonya Moseley
Malcolm Washington and John David Washington, this was such a pleasure to talk with both of you and thank you so much.
- [28:18]
John David Washington
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
- [28:19]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, great conversation. I appreciate it.
- [28:22]
Tonya Moseley
John David and Malcolm Washington's new film is the Piano Lesson. Their father, Denzel Washington, is starring in his own film, the much anticipated blockbuster Gladiator 2, which is expected to battle at the box office with another big studio film, Wicked. Cynthia Erivo and Arianda Grande star in Wicked and our film critic Justin Chang has seen both movies. Here's his take.
- [28:48]
Selena Gomez
Some moviegoers are already referring to Gladiator 2 and Wicked as this year's Barbenheimer. I believe Glicked is the portmanteau of choice. We'll see if the comparison holds up. Both these lavish spectacles are set to be huge hits, but unlike Barbie and Oppenheimer, they're essentially known quantities rooted in stories and characters that the audience knows well. Wicked was adapted from the long running Broadway musical which was itself inspired by Gregory Maguire's 1995 novel. But you should know going in that this two hour and 40 minute movie is just part one. And there will be a year long intermission before part two. The director, John M. Chu of in the Heights and Crazy Rich Asians takes a glossy maximalist approach to this origin story for the Wicked Witch of the west, the villain so memorably played by Margaret Hamilton in the 1939 classic the wizard of Oz. In this telling the witch's name is Elphaba, and as played by a quietly commanding Cynthia Erivo, she's brave, brilliant and grievously misunderstood, mainly on account of her green skin. Much of the movie takes place at a school of sorcery, basically Hogwarts with Munchkins, where Elphaba impresses the powerful headmistress, an imperious Michelle Yeoh. It's here that Elphaba becomes rivals with a smug queen bee named Galinda, the future Good Witch of the North. She's played with delightful comic brio by the pop superstar Ariana Grande, but in time, the two become genuine friends. In this scene set to one of Stephen Schwartz's better musical numbers, Galinda decides to give Elphaba a makeover.
- [30:40]
H
Popular, you're gonna be popular.
- [30:44]
Tonya Moseley
I'll teach you the proper boys when you talk to boys the ways to polar and flow.
- [30:49]
H
I'll show you what shoes to wear, how to fix your hair Everything that really counts. To be popular I'll help you be popular. You'll hang with the right cohorts. You'll be good at sports Know the slang you've got to know. So let's start cause you've got an awfully long way to go.
- [31:13]
Selena Gomez
Wicked handles the boarding school comedy with a pleasingly light touch. There's also a hint of a romantic triangle involving a handsome prince, a very good Jonathan Bailey, who, like a lot of things here, foreshadows future wizard of Oz developments. In time, we get Jeff Goldblum, nicely cast as the wizard himself, who turns out to be less wonderful than he appears. This sets the stage for Elphaba to harness her full magical strength and become oz's Public Enemy 1 Wicked Part 1 does build to a doozy of a gravity defying Emerald City climax, but much of the movie is too lumbering, too obvious and frankly, too digitally slick to cast a spell. I hate to say this about a movie that teaches us not to judge based on appearances, but I do wish Wicked looked better. Where Oz has winged monkeys, ancient Rome has deranged baboons. Early on in Gladiator 2, Lucius, a warrior played by Paul Mescal, must prove his mettle by defeating a very scary simian in the Colosseum arena. Sixteen years have passed since the events of the first Gladiator. And like that movie's slain hero, Maximus, indelibly played by Russell Crowe, Lucius is a prisoner scarred by personal tragedy and bent on revenge. His hatred, though, isn't just aimed at one person. Lucius wants to burn the whole rotten empire to the ground. The director Ridley Scott has reunited with some of his key collaborators from that first film, including the actor Connie Nielsen, making a regal return as Lucilla, daughter of Marcus Aurelius. Most of the cast, however, is new. Pedro Pascal plays a formidable general with whom Lucius has a score to settle, while Joseph Quinn and Fred Heschinger romp up a storm as a pair of twin brother tyrants who are driving Rome to ruin. And Denzil Washington, unsurprisingly, gets the juiciest role as Macrinus, a sly and somewhat inscrutable slave owner who sends Lucius into the arena. It's fun to watch Washington go over the top, but his scene stealing is typical of Gladiator 2 as a whole. It's a lot of flash to very little purpose. Mescal, best known for his sensitive, melancholy work in the series Normal People and films like after sun, gives an intensely physical performance, but his lucius never lays claim to your sympathies as commandingly as Maximus did. And when the characters start talking laboriously about the downfall of Rome and the hope of a glorious rebirth, the movie rapidly loses steam. It's like watching an extended WWE SmackDown suddenly interrupted by a civics lesson. Still, the smackdown itself is pretty satisfying. In Gladiator 2's wildest action sequence, the Colosseum arena becomes a giant saltwater tank, complete with dueling warships and bloodthirsty sharks. It's an utterly outlandish spectacle, but Ridley Scott, who's now 86, doesn't sweat the logistics. The first Gladiator asked, are you not entertained? And in these moments, at least, we are.
- [34:38]
Tonya Moseley
Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Wicked and Gladiator 2. Coming up, Selena Gomez, who stars in the new film Amelia Perez. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh.
- [34:51]
Terry Gross
Air Weekend support for this podcast and the following message come from Crown, publisher of the Demon of Unrest A saga of hubris, heartbreak and heroism at the dawn of the Civil War by Erik Larson, author of the Splendid and the Vile The Demon of Unrest brings to life the five months between the election of Abraham Lincoln and the start of the Civil War, a crisis that tore a deeply divided nation in two. The Demon of Unrest by Erik Larson is available wherever books and audiobooks are sold.
- [35:21]
Justin Chang
Support for NPR and the following message come from Chevron. The Anchor offshore platform is utilizing breakthrough technology to enable us to produce oil and natural gas in the US Gulf of Mexico at pressures up to 20,000 psi. A new industry benchmark, Anchor is part of Chevron's plan to produce 300,000 net barrels of oil equivalent per day by 2026 in the US Gulf of Mexico, home to some of Chevron's lowest carbon intensity producing operations. That's energy in progress. Visit chevron.com anchor this is FRESH AIR Weekend.
- [35:58]
Tonya Moseley
I'm Tanya Mosley and I recently had the chance to check out the movie Amelia Perez, the new Spanish language musical that stars my guest today, Selena Gomez. The film is centered on a lawyer named Rita, played by Zoe Saldana, who is kidnapped and tasked with helping a ruthless Mexican cartel leader secretly undergo gender affirming surgery to begin a new life. As Emilia Perez, Selena Gomez plays Jesse Del Monte, the wife of the cartel leader who knows nothing about her husband's transition and is led to believe that Emilia Perez is a distant cousin. The film is almost entirely in Spanish and Gomez, who grew up speaking it but lost fluency, took lessons to prepare for the role. Here she is singing a stirring performance of Bienvenida, which means welcome. That's Selena Gomez singing in the new Netflix movie musical Emilia Perez. As an ensemble. Gomez, along with Zoe Saldana and Carla Sophia Gascon, who portrays both Emilia Perez and the cartel leader before she transitions, won the Cannes Film Festival Jury Prize for best Actress. Selena Gomez is an actor, singer and the founder of the successful cosmetic line Rare Beauty. She began acting in 2002 at 10 years old on the television series Barney and Friends. She went on to star in several Disney shows before her breakout role in the series the Wizards of Waverly Place. As a musician, she's had 16 consecutive top 40 hits on the Billboard Hot 100, the longest active run of any artist, and she's the most followed woman on Instagram. We talked about some of her struggles with such a high level of fame and her diagnosis of lupus and bipolar disorder. Gomez was nominated for an Emmy Award for her role in the mystery comedy series Only Murders in the Building alongside Steve Martin and Martin Short. Selena Gomez, welcome to FRESH air.
- [38:36]
H
Thank you. That was such a lovely introduction.
- [38:38]
Tonya Moseley
I was wondering, you spent, was it nearly half a year training preparing for this role, learning Spanish. You actually grew up speaking Spanish until something happened. It took a turn where you weren't speaking it anymore.
- [38:52]
H
I was fluent when I was seven and before then, all up until then. But I got my first job at seven and most of my jobs from that point on were English. And I moved from Texas to California to pursue my dream with Disney and I again just lost it. And, you know, and that's, that's kind of the case for a lot of people Especially Mexican American, I think, you know, my cousins and people in our lives, it's so dominated by English speaking people, which is fine, but I wish I had had more. I wish I just knew a lot more than I do. But I think that's why I try to honor my culture as much as possible. From releasing an album in Spanish to, you know, wanting to pursue this movie that I thought would be an incredible challenge. And I don't think it'll be the last thing I do in Spanish.
- [39:54]
Tonya Moseley
Do you feel more fluent in it now?
- [39:56]
H
I do. And don't try to talk anything around me because I will know what you're saying if you think that I can. I just have a hard time responding sometimes to, like, form the sentence correctly.
- [40:08]
Tonya Moseley
Right. Because even though you weren't speaking it, did you feel like you could understand it when you heard other folks speak it?
- [40:14]
H
Completely. It's also, you know, Spanish is one of the most beautiful languages and the inflections and the melody behind how they speak, it's very telling and it's a very emotional language, I think.
- [40:32]
Tonya Moseley
Let's talk a little bit about the themes in the movie. She's looking for freedom because she's married to this very brutal drug kingpin. And so all the things that go along with that life. She has two children by him. It's not explicitly said, but it seems as if maybe she got married when she was very young to him.
- [40:54]
H
That's correct.
- [40:56]
Tonya Moseley
There's a transformation with your husband from male to female, but there's also a transformation of this character. She's like a dormant volcano of a wife. And we watch her as she goes through. And I wanna play a clip. And this clip I'm about to play, it's several years after her husband has had the transition. She thinks he's dead, she goes back to Mexico and she connects with a man who really is the love of her life. And in this scene, the two of you, this man, you and this man, you all are in a club and you're singing the song Mi Camino. Let's listen. That's my guest, Selena Gomez, singing the song Mi Camino in the musical film Amelia Perez. Okay, Selena, this is a liberation song.
- [42:40]
H
It is. It's so beautiful. I'm so proud of it.
- [42:43]
Tonya Moseley
The words. I'm gonna read a little bit of the words in English. If I fall into the ravine, it's my ravine. If I double the pain, it's my pain. If I send myself to the seventh heaven, it's my heaven. If I lose my way it's still mine. I wanna love myself. It's a liberation song. And to me, without, like, being too sappy about it, I feel like it sounds familiar to your life path. Do you see that?
- [43:09]
H
Yeah, actually, I do. It was one of the most emotional songs that I got to record during the process of shooting this movie. And I remember just singing it and thinking to myself, this could have been my song. You know, this could have been me song on an album I would put out personally because it's so well said and it feels very true to who I am, to where I am. I think that when I do make mistakes, I don't feel like I should or necessarily need to be punished for them. It's something that I feel like I need to grow and learn from. And I think that sometimes there's been moments in my career where people weren't allowing me to grow up. I weren't allowing me to make choices that, you know, wasn't exactly what they thought I should be doing.
- [44:12]
Tonya Moseley
Acting, as you said, has always been your first love. We're going to get into some things. Like, I can't believe Girl Interrupted is one of the first films you saw. Like what?
- [44:22]
H
Sorry, Mom.
- [44:23]
Tonya Moseley
I know.
- [44:24]
H
Sorry, Mom. Yeah, no, my mom was. You know, she was so just. I just remember feeling like she was the coolest person ever. She's still cool, but as a kid, I looked up to her so much.
- [44:38]
Tonya Moseley
But she kind of was. I mean, she was 16 when she had you, so she was a young mom.
- [44:42]
H
Oh, yeah.
- [44:42]
Tonya Moseley
She was a young, cool mom.
- [44:43]
H
We were like sisters in a way. And she loved. She. She loved everything about art. And I remember sometimes she would let me watch things, but she would do the old. Cover your ears and eyes. Like, be careful. So, yeah, she was young. Maybe I shouldn't have watched some of the things they did. However, I think I fell in love with it for the right reasons. It was a whole range of different styles. And we'd watch French films or we'd watch anything that kind of sparked something in my mom. And she would explain things to me and I would always ask questions. And I was inquisitive about the work. And it wasn't just an experience for me. I wanted to know everything. And I think that's where it kind of stemmed from.
- [45:38]
Tonya Moseley
Do you remember the first time you were on stage? Your first performance?
- [45:42]
H
Yeah. The funny thing is, I wasn't in any school plays necessarily. I was seven when I auditioned for Barney, which is the big purple dinosaur, if people don't remember. But I Was in line. It was 1,400 kids, and it was in Texas. And I waited in line for a while, and I just thought, here's my chance. I could do something really cool.
- [46:10]
Tonya Moseley
You thought that in the moment?
- [46:11]
H
Yeah. I just thought, this is something I really want to do, and I hope I get it. And I went to three rounds of callbacks. They were very serious about Bardi back in the day, and I got the part. And it would have to be the first time I stepped foot on the set of Barney. It was magical. Not to mention, I'm seven and they make it for kids. You know, they make it this beautiful experience, and the sets are gorgeous. And I just got the bug immediately. I had school there as well, A bunch of kids I got to grow up with. And at the same time, maybe Barney taught me how to clean and how to say, I love you.
- [47:02]
Tonya Moseley
Right, because you're taking in all the lessons that you all are teaching us too. Well, for those who don't watch it, Only Murders in the Building, the Hulu series is centered on you, Martin Short, and Steve Martin. You guys are a trio of residents in this really beautiful upper west side apartment building called the Arconia, and you set out to investigate a string of murders in the building and start a true crime podcast to chronicle the investigation. Martin Short has said, like, in all of the interviews, just how much fun you guys have on the set. He alludes it to being kind of exceptional in that way. What makes it fun?
- [47:43]
H
Well, first off, Steve Martin and Martin Short are legends in their own right.
- [47:51]
Tonya Moseley
Yes.
- [47:51]
H
And it is very difficult to keep a straight face when you're talking to them about anything because they simply exude and radiate comedy.
- [48:03]
Tonya Moseley
How do you do it? Cause you're the straight man of the three.
- [48:06]
H
I know, but, I mean, I just have to. I gotta get through it. You know, once we do the table read and they'll chime in, it is challenging, but I think the best part of Only Murders is the environment. And I think that's what Marty is referring to, because these two actors who have been working longer than I've been alive are always on time, could not be more compassionate and kind to everyone. Class act, intelligence. Their humor is smart and wise. And they'll sit down and talk to, you know, our camera guy and ask how his daughter's doing. And it just, to me, was a very good place for me to start back into acting. It just was safe, and it was so fun. And they made it feel like it was. They just made it feel like it was home.
- [49:07]
Tonya Moseley
How did the role come about for you?
- [49:10]
H
So Steve came up with the idea himself, not about me. He originally wanted the show to be three comedians, three guys. And John Hoffman came in, who's the co creator, and said, I have this idea, this maybe unconventional, you know, relationship or friendship that these, you know, people care about. So what if we had, you know, like a 28 year old, and Steve, you know, was like, well, let me know your ideas or whatever you know, you're thinking. And John got on a call with me and I had told him how much I, you know, will watch 48 Hours or with my mom, I'd watch, you know, Forensic Files or the Night.
- [49:57]
Tonya Moseley
You'Re into the true crime stuff.
- [49:58]
H
I think that he. It was music to his ears, and he was very genuine and sweet. And after the call, they offered me the part.
- [50:09]
Tonya Moseley
I want to play a clip from season one. So you all live in the same apartment and you don't really know each other that well, but you're starting to come into this idea that something really fishy is happening here. Your character Mabel is joining the two others in Oliver's apartment. And Oliver is played by Martin Short, and Charles is played by Steve Martin. Let's listen. Oh, how did you get here?
- [50:35]
H
It was open.
- [50:36]
Malcolm Washington
I don't lock my door.
- [50:37]
John David Washington
Never have.
- [50:38]
Tonya Moseley
That's insane.
- [50:38]
Malcolm Washington
It's neighborly.
- [50:39]
H
I mean, a murderer probably lives in the building, but I guess old white guys are only afraid of colon cancer and societal change. Sad.
- [50:47]
Selena Gomez
A murderer doesn't probably live in the building.
- [50:50]
Tonya Moseley
A murderer definitely lives in the building.
- [50:52]
Selena Gomez
Lester checked all the security footage, and.
- [50:54]
Malcolm Washington
No one unknown to him came in.
- [50:56]
Tonya Moseley
Or out during the hours around Tim's murder.
- [50:58]
Malcolm Washington
Isn't that great for the podcast?
- [50:59]
Tonya Moseley
So, Mabel, tell us, did you learn.
- [51:02]
Selena Gomez
Anything from the online world of Tim Kono?
- [51:05]
H
He didn't post much. In his online world. He seems to have had a really sad, quiet life.
- [51:11]
Tonya Moseley
You checked all the websites?
- [51:13]
H
Yep, all the websites.
- [51:15]
Selena Gomez
Well, we've exhausted the Internet.
- [51:19]
Tonya Moseley
That's my guest, Selena Gomez with Martin Short and Steve Martin in the very popular Hulu series, Only Murders in the Building. Selena, there's such a tenderness to your relationships with those guys that seems like it's only grown over the seasons. I was watching, I think I saw you and Martin Short on a TV show recently, and you were showing him how to put on makeup from your rare beauty line, and it felt natural and connect it like you all are your friends.
- [51:50]
H
Yes. And it's an absolute joy. They'll joke and laugh and say oh. We didn't know what to expect when we met Selena. But I don't know. By the first week of us working together, they really took me under their wing. They didn't make me feel separate because I was younger. They made me feel incredibly included. If they would change a joke or want to try something different, they would always incorporate me into the conversation. And they respected me and I felt safe. You know, these are gentlemen that want nothing from me but to have a great experience at work and create bonds with everybody on set. And they disarm people by their. By their kindness. So, yeah, I've done interviews or I've been upset on days of, you know, working if I got bad news. And they're protective, they listen, they give great advice. That's something I'll cherish. It could have been totally different. It could have been, you know, hard to connect. But they are genuinely wonderful people. And it's just been a huge blessing. Cause I get emotional thinking about it. Cause I really do love them, and they care about me a lot.
- [53:20]
Tonya Moseley
Selena Gomez, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.
- [53:23]
H
It's been so nice.
- [53:25]
Tonya Moseley
Selena Gomez stars in the new movie Amelia Perez. FRESH AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. FRESH Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Seawert with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.
- [54:05]
Terry Gross
This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that. That's why with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Inc. Registered broker Dealer Registered investment advisor. Member sipc. This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that. That's why with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce Fenner and Smith Inc. Registered broker dealer, Registered investment advisor Member, sipc.