Fresh Air: Best Of—Michael Shannon / ‘Pluribus’ Star Rhea Seehorn
Date: December 13, 2025
Host: Dave Davies & Terry Gross (NPR)
Overview
This episode of “Fresh Air” features two compelling interviews: first, Dave Davies sits down with acclaimed actor Michael Shannon to discuss his recent roles as historical figures in the projects Death by Lightning and Nuremberg, as well as his music ventures. Next, Terry Gross speaks with Rhea Seehorn, star of the thought-provoking Apple TV sci-fi series Pluribus, for a rich discussion about individuality, happiness, and anger in both art and real life. Additional highlights include Maureen Corrigan’s recommendations for the year’s best books.
Michael Shannon: Transformations & Honest Portrayals
Host: Dave Davies
Segment Start: 03:04
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Breaking Free from Typecasting
- Shannon recounts being often associated with “intense, menacing” characters, such as Agent Nelson Van Alden in Boardwalk Empire, but insists this is at odds with his real personality:
- Quote: “I’m a big fella and I got this giant head, and it’s not too difficult for me to seem intimidating, I suppose. But it couldn’t be further from what I’m actually like.” (00:33)
- In Death by Lightning and Nuremberg, Shannon relishes the opportunity to play historical figures in more morally upright roles, surprising both himself and audiences.
- Quote: “I guess typically with a project like Nuremberg, I think when people hear that I’m in Nuremberg, they assume I’m playing a Nazi. And when they hear about Death by Lightning, they assume I’m playing the assassin. So I guess it’s nice to surprise people.” (04:48)
Embodying President James Garfield (Death by Lightning)
- Shannon was deeply influenced by Candice Millard’s biography Destiny of the Republic, recommending it to viewers for its overlooked historical insights:
- Quote: “It’s very captivating and very informative and illuminating … The country seemed very lost at sea, as Garfield hints at in his address at the Republican convention. And it’s easy, I think, to feel that way now.” (05:42)
- On the physical transformation into Garfield, Shannon describes relying on talented hair and makeup teams, admitting he could never grow Garfield’s famed beard himself. (07:23)
- Clip played of Garfield’s impassioned speech against corruption and patronage, earning praise for its resonance with contemporary concerns:
- Garfield/Shannon, Clip:
“Now, I made a vow to end the rot in our government. Spoils, patronage. Call it what you want. It’s no good … This is not how democracy endures. This is wrong, and all of us know it. This is our fight. One day, years from now, each one of us will be judged by what we do in this moment. How will they talk about us, I wonder?” (08:46)
- Garfield/Shannon, Clip:
Playing Justice Robert Jackson (Nuremberg)
- Shannon explored Jackson’s complexity, admiring his conviction in the face of widespread resistance to the Nuremberg trials.
- Quote: “What was really fascinating to me was just how extraordinarily difficult it was for him to do something that seemed very logical and necessary. How much opposition he met at every step of the way.” (14:16)
- The film dramatizes debates about justice, vengeance, and historical memory. Shannon notes Jackson’s goal was “not to make martyrs” but to set a legal precedent for humanity’s sake:
- Jackson/Shannon, Film Clip:
“If we just shoot these men, we make them martyrs … I’m gonna put Hermann Goering on the stand and I’m gonna make him tell the world what he did so that it can never … This war ends in a courtroom.” (12:57–14:00)
- Jackson/Shannon, Film Clip:
On Music and R.E.M. Cover Band
- Shannon and Jason Narducci tour with R.E.M. tribute concerts; Shannon finds strong parallels between music and acting, especially regarding rhythm and energy.
- Quote: “They’re very interwoven. Particularly when I’m doing theater, I rely on music to inspire me and to give me energy to perform.” (19:54)
- R.E.M. members have supported their shows, and Shannon describes upcoming anniversary tours covering Life’s Rich Pageant.
On What’s Next
- Shannon mentions the football film Mr. Irrelevant, in which he plays Bill Parcells, but otherwise expresses the uncertainty of an actor’s future:
- Quote: “Other than that, I don’t have anything in the can, the proverbial can. So … it’s as much a mystery to me as anybody else right now.” (22:16)
Rhea Seehorn: Individuality, Anger & Sci-Fi in ‘Pluribus’
Host: Terry Gross
Segment Start: 22:55
Key Discussion Points & Insights
“Pluribus”: Sci-fi as Existential Mirror
- Seehorn plays Carol, a romance novelist whose partner dies as a mysterious alien technology ushers in a new collective consciousness, erasing individuality and dissent.
- The show meditates on profound questions of happiness, meaning, and the value of individuality.
- Gross: “Is being an individual with your own temperament and thoughts … more valuable than this happiness? And is anger lethal, or is it good to let out your anger and resist what you think is wrong?” (25:16)
On Happiness vs. Contentment
- Seehorn and cast debated if it’s better for an individual to be truly independent or part of a blissful collective:
- Seehorn: “A big thing that came up for me was the fact that this group think … one of the ideas of happiness and joy … is being surprised by things … If you cannot be surprised, there’s never going to be any new art … I just can’t imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.” (26:40–28:04)
On Anger, Gender, and Suppression
- Carol’s unfiltered anger becomes a danger in the show, but Seehorn voices her personal struggle with anger in real life and how society, especially for women, polices its expression.
- Seehorn: “I struggle mightily with how much I suppress my anger … it did feel like … I was taught that anger was unpalatable, specifically from females, and that I should find a way to make it palatable, make my requests palatable, and not express a lot of anger.” (30:03–32:43)
- She reflects that while she’ll defend others fiercely, she finds it harder to express anger on her own behalf—sometimes with real health consequences:
- Quote: “I go home and break out in eczema. And that’s not an exaggeration.” (32:43)
Pluribus, Diversity, and Artificial Conformity
- The show’s title references “E Pluribus Unum” (“out of many, one”), and Seehorn and Gross explore how enforced psychic unity in the show can act as a metaphor for both utopia and dystopia.
- Gross: “…in this era where diversity, equity, and inclusion is basically being outlawed … E Pluribus Unum has always been one of the founding principles … this kind of conformity is really the opposite of DEI because there’s no diversity … so there’s no need for equity and inclusion because everybody has the same thoughts.” (35:16)
- Seehorn: “Or you could argue that it’s the ultimate in all inclusion and everybody has equal everything.” (36:08)
Researching Romance Novels for the Role
- Seehorn visited a specialty store to understand the genre’s diversity and its audience:
- Seehorn: “The amount of subgenres and the specificity of these subgenres … historical, paranormal, romance suspense … There was some couple that looked like they came straight from a corporate job. … It definitely wizened me to how huge this genre is.” (37:40–39:26)
Character Origin and Writing for a Woman
- Vince Gilligan conceived the lead character initially as a man, but shifted the role to Seehorn after watching her work during Better Call Saul.
- Seehorn: “He realized, like, I have to write something for her. I need to make sure that I do a project with her. … He was impressed at my ability to do those things.” (39:50–42:11)
From Visual Arts to Acting
- Seehorn originally pursued art but found her path through an acting elective, discovering she could apply careful study and script analysis to performance.
- Quote: “If you work really hard and study, you can incrementally get closer and closer to being good at this and hopefully one day, great at this. And that was the best news ever to me.” (42:20)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
Michael Shannon:
- “I’m a big fella and I got this giant head, and it’s not too difficult for me to seem intimidating, I suppose. But it couldn’t be further from what I’m actually like.” (00:33)
- “It shouldn’t really be ultimately because you’re concerned about how you’re remembered. It should be more that you’re concerned about the future of the next generation and the generation that follows.” (10:11)
- “I wish that it [the Nuremberg precedent] was being honored more fervently nowadays.” (15:12)
Rhea Seehorn:
- “I just can’t imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.” (28:04)
- “I think I have become conflict avoidant in the suppression of that anger to a degree that’s not healthy. … But if it’s at me, I tend to swallow it and try to figure out how I can make it better.” (32:45)
- On Vince Gilligan: “He realized, like, I have to write something for her. I need to make sure that I do a project with her.” (41:00)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:04 – Michael Shannon on new roles as Garfield and Jackson past typecasting
- 05:34 – On researching and embodying President Garfield
- 08:46 – Clip: Garfield’s defiant speech on government corruption
- 11:54 – Clip: Shannon (as Jackson) discusses Nuremberg with Rami Malek’s character
- 14:16 – Shannon on the obstacles facing Justice Jackson
- 18:50 – Shannon’s R.E.M. performance (Driver 8)
- 22:35 – Looking ahead: future projects and uncertainty
- 22:55 – Rhea Seehorn interview begins; summary of Pluribus
- 26:32 – Gross and Seehorn on happiness, individuality, and meaning
- 28:04 – On playing anger and personal reflections on suppression
- 35:16 – Discussion of Pluribus’s title and its parallels to diversity/inclusion debates
- 37:40 – Researching romance novels for her character Carol
- 39:26 – The character’s gender, Vince Gilligan’s creative process
- 42:20 – Transition from visual arts to acting
Maureen Corrigan’s Best Books of the Year
Start: 45:12
- Highlights include Karen Russell’s The Antidote, Patrick Ryan’s Buckeye, Kiran Desai’s The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny, Francesca Wade’s Gertrude: An Afterlife, Arundhati Roy’s Mother Mary Comes to Me, Patti Smith’s Bread of Angels, Stephen Greenblatt’s Dark Renaissance, Judith Geisberg’s Last Seen, Sophie Elmhurst’s A Marriage at Sea.
Conclusion
This “Best Of” episode features in-depth, intimate conversations about the craft of acting, the relevance of historical and speculative narratives, and the personal lives of distinguished guests. It reflects on how media, justice, and art all address urgent questions of memory, happiness, and resistance—echoing through both Michael Shannon’s and Rhea Seehorn’s work. Whether you're interested in history, philosophy, pop culture, or self-exploration, this episode delivers rich, accessible insights in the classic Fresh Air style.