Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook

Summary

Fresh Air: Best Of — Michelle Williams & Sarah Snook Released May 10, 2025 | Hosted by NPR’s Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley

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Overview

In this special "Best Of" episode of Fresh Air Weekend, hosts Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley delve into the captivating works and personal insights of two acclaimed actresses: Michelle Williams and Sarah Snook. Michelle Williams stars in the darkly humorous FX series Dying for Sex, while Sarah Snook shines on Broadway in her Tony-nominated one-person adaptation of Oscar Wilde’s The Picture of Dorian Gray. This episode offers intimate conversations that explore themes of sexuality, friendship, artistic integrity, and personal growth.

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Michelle Williams on “Dying for Sex” and Personal Reflections

Exploring “Dying for Sex”

Michelle Williams discusses her role in Dying for Sex, a series that blends dark humor with poignant storytelling about a woman confronting terminal breast cancer. The show, based on a true story and adapted from a Wondery podcast, follows Molly (Williams) as she navigates her final days by seeking out sexual pleasure, a topic she admits she hadn’t fully considered until recently.

“The consideration of one's own pleasure was not in the conversation when I was coming of age. It was, first of all, you shouldn't do it if you have to. You'll probably suffer a tragedy, get sick or die.”
— Michelle Williams (04:33)

Themes of Pleasure and Societal Norms

Williams reflects on societal expectations surrounding female sexuality and pleasure, emphasizing how these themes are central to Molly’s journey in the series. She discusses the importance of reclaiming pleasure even in the face of mortality.

“It's about reclaiming pleasure, even after we've been told that it doesn't belong to us.”
— Michelle Williams (09:51)

The Power of Friendship

The show also highlights the profound friendship between Molly and her caretaker, Nikki, played by Jenny Slate. Williams speaks passionately about the significance of female friendships, likening them to soulmates.

“I think it's possible to be both scared and brave at the same time. And that's what moved me so much about Molly's journey and this best friendship.”
— Michelle Williams (07:04)

Personal Life and Community

Williams shares intimate details about her personal life, including her close-knit friendships that resemble a communal living environment. She credits her friend Jeremy Strong for being a strong presence in her life, especially after significant personal losses.

“There was a period of my life where we had room to share and my friends came to make our house feel like a home... Jeremy was there, my sister was there.”
— Michelle Williams (09:35)

Reflections on Activism and Future Generations

Williams expresses concerns about the current socio-political climate, referencing movements like MeToo and Black Lives Matter. However, she remains optimistic about the future, particularly in regards to her daughter’s generation.

“I just think, oh, she's just light years ahead of where I maybe even am. She teaches me. She is proud of me and accepting of me.”
— Michelle Williams (12:26)

2019 Emmy Award Speech

Williams revisits her profound 2019 Emmy acceptance speech for her role in Fosse/Verdon. She highlights her commitment to supporting female empowerment in the arts and stresses the importance of equitable treatment in the workplace.

“The next time a woman, and especially a woman of color... tells you what she needs in order to do her job, listen to her, believe her.”
— Michelle Williams (21:33)

Final Thoughts: Humor and Pleasure as Resilience

Concluding her discussion, Williams emphasizes the role of humor and the reclamation of pleasure as essential tools for resilience and healing.

“The reclamation of humor... is a way to remember something better. ... the insistence on continuing to find the humor, but most of all the pleasure, because they can't take that away from us.”
— Michelle Williams (25:31)

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Maureen Corrigan Reviews Daniel Kellman’s “The Director”

In a compelling book review, Maureen Corrigan delves into Daniel Kellman's novel The Director. The novel reimagines the life of G.W. Pabst, an influential film director who navigates the treacherous waters of Nazi Germany's film industry. Corrigan praises Kellman's nuanced portrayal of art versus morality, highlighting how Pabst's compromises reflect broader societal conflicts.

“When do compromises turn into full blown capitulation? How many accommodations can someone make with evil before they themselves become part of the evil?”
— Maureen Corrigan (25:00)

Corrigan commends Kellman's ability to raise profound ethical questions through tightly woven dialogues and vivid historical settings, making The Director a thought-provoking read that intertwines commercial fiction with deep moral inquiries.

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Sarah Snook on “The Picture of Dorian Gray” and Balancing Multiple Roles

Innovative Broadway Performance

Sarah Snook discusses her groundbreaking performance in the one-person Broadway adaptation of The Picture of Dorian Gray. Portraying all 26 characters, Snook explores the challenges and creative processes involved in such a multifaceted role.

“It's very much a physical sensation of each character sits somewhere differently in my body.”
— Sarah Snook (37:22)

Developing Unique Characters

Snook elaborates on how she differentiates each character through distinct vocal tones, physical movements, and emotional expressions. This meticulous approach allows her to bring each persona to life seamlessly.

“Each character had, and accent, as well as what physicality came from that. It's very much a physical sensation of each character sits somewhere differently in my body.”
— Sarah Snook (38:33)

Performing Opposite Herself

A unique aspect of the production is Snook acting opposite pre-recorded performances of herself, requiring intense focus and imaginative engagement.

“I can't interact with it in that way. It really forces you to listen to what the person is saying, to what I'm saying, and forces you to be really imaginative.”
— Sarah Snook (41:28)

Balancing Multiple Roles with “Succession”

Snook draws parallels between her role in Succession as Shiv Roy and her performance in The Picture of Dorian Gray. She discusses how her experiences in Succession, which involves complex character interactions and camera dynamics, informed her approach to her solo performance.

“The proximity of cameras and the kind of subtextual or subconscious awareness of them as a character in both Succession and Dorian has been really useful.”
— Sarah Snook (47:22)

Character Development: Shiv Roy

Snook delves into the nuances of her character Shiv Roy, an astute observer within a tumultuous family dynamic. She explains how Shiv's contemplative nature and strategic mindset are portrayed through subtle acting choices.

“There's a cunningness and, like, a cunning quality to Shiv, and a part of that is just being the observer and waiting her turn.”
— Sarah Snook (50:34)

Final Reflections

Concluding her interview, Snook reflects on the interplay between her performances and the importance of versatility and dedication in her craft.

“It was such a strange, strange, like, thing to have as a reference, like a real body reference, really, from my childhood...”
— Sarah Snook (40:33)

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Production Credits

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden, with executive producer Danny Miller and managing producer Sam Brigger. Technical direction and engineering are handled by Audrey Bentham, alongside host Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley.

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Listen to the full episode here.

Transcript

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[Tonya Moseley]

Edu from WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today Michelle Williams talks about starring in Dying for Sex, a dark but funny series based on a true story about a woman with stage four cancer who, facing death, decides to take ownership of her sexual pleasure. It's something William says she herself didn't really consider until recently.

[Michelle Williams]

The consideration of one's own pleasure was not in the conversation when I was coming of age. It was, first of all, you shouldn't do it if you have to. You'll probably suffer a tragedy, get sick or die.

[Tonya Moseley]

Also, we hear from Sarah Snook. She's best known for her role on HBO's Succession as Shiv Roy. Snoop was recently nominated for a Tony for her performance on Broadway and the stage adaptation of the Picture of Dorian Gray. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Tonya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley Sometimes a show reaches out and grabs you by the collar with its honesty. That's what happened after I watched the first episode of the new FX series Dying for Sex. I knew immediately that I had to watch the rest of it alone. I needed to sit with it, to cry without feeling self conscious, to laugh without an audience because the show is so intimate, so distinctly human. Adapted from the wondery podcast of the same name and based on a true story, Dying for Sex follows a woman named Molly, played by my guest today, Michelle Williams. Molly leaves her marriage after a terminal breast cancer diagnosis and embarks on a sexual adventure. But that doesn't even scratch the surface. Yes, there is sex, sometimes kinky, a little awkward, often hilarious. But the show is really about everything surrounding it. It's about what happens when the fear of dying outweighs the fear of never having truly lived. It's about how trauma gets stored in the female body. It's about reclaiming pleasure, even after we've been told that it doesn't belong to us. In this scene that I'm about to play, Molly has just learned that her breast cancer has returned and is now stage four. She begins meeting with a palliative care counselor for support.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm too young and it sucks, okay? I haven't done anything with my life. I actually don't know what I like or what I want. I've never. I've never even had an orgasm with another person. And now I'm gonna die. Good.

[Sarah Snook]

Molly, hey, we have something for your list.

[Michelle Williams]

Orgasm with another person.

[Tonya Moseley]

Dying for Sex is also a story about friendship. Ginny Slate plays Nikki, Molly's best friend who becomes her caretaker after Molly leaves her loving but emotionally unavailable husband. And at times, their friendship feels like the real love story. And did I mention that this is a comedy? Michelle Williams has spent her career exploring the complexities and inner lives of women, from her breakout role as Jen Lindley on Dawson's Creek to Gwen Verdon in Fosse Verdon, and the role of Mitzi, Steven Spielberg's mother, in the Fablemans. She's been nominated five times for an Academy Award and has won two Golden Globes and took home an Emmy for her performance in Fosse Verdon. A warning for those who might have children in the room. We will be talking about sex and pleasure during this conversation. Michelle Williams, welcome to FRESH air.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here with you.

[Sarah Snook]

I am thrilled to have you. You heard me say I needed to watch this series alone. You know, Me and my husband. The wonderful thing about this job is we get previews and we kind of watch it together, kind of like a date night, you know? And after that first episode, I said, I have to watch it alone. I watched the whole series by myself. And then, of course, I went to him, sobbing, telling him all about it. And I heard you had a similar experience after listening to the podcast that this is based on.

[Michelle Williams]

I did. It unraveled me, and I went back to listen to it for a second time to try and figure out why it had this power over me. And then there I was on the floor again with no sense of what had really just happened.

[Jeremy Strong]

And.

[Michelle Williams]

And I listened to the podcast in tandem with reading the first. The pilot episode written by Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock. And those companion pieces for me, cast such a spell that I immediately, for reasons that I couldn't understand and were beyond me, knew that I wanted to make this.

[Sarah Snook]

Have you come to understand the core of that emotion where that kind of, like, magical thing came from within you that knew this was something you had to do?

[Michelle Williams]

I think it's a lot of things, but if I could put one pin in it, it would be that it's possible to be both scared and brave at the same time. And that's what I think moved me so much about Molly's journey and this best friendship.

[Sarah Snook]

Yes, this is definitely a series about friendship and almost how, like our female friendships, we can have soulmates with each other. You know, we often think of that in the romantic context. Jenny Slate played your best friend and what chemistry you guys had. I actually heard something like, I think the test read that you all did. You came, you arrived in the same outfit or something like that.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it was like when you were a kid, you know, and you would call your best friend and say, what are we doing? You know, the black T shirt and the white shorts. And that's how we showed up. I knew that we would part and come back together. You know, we had this reading, this moment, but already the connection was made, and we knew that we would go down this road together. And the, you know, the sweet. The very sweet ending to the story is she's moving to Brooklyn, where I live and Liz lives. And so, wait, I mean, Jenny Slate. Jenny Slate.

[Sarah Snook]

So in real life, right, you all became friends in real life?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, we're hitching our wagons together.

[Sarah Snook]

You seem to be someone who really values friendship almost in a way that is kind of communal. I've heard you just talk throughout your career about the friends that you've collected over time that have become kind of like your family.

[Michelle Williams]

That's very true. I'm thinking of all the friends that I've lived with in what really felt like a commune for a while. There was a period of my life where we had room to share and my friends came to make our house feel like a home. One of my best friends, Daphne, we slept in the same bed for years. And another friend, Jeremy, lived downstairs. And then they would have. Their friends would be there. It was a kind of like a real open door policy to create a sense of community.

[Sarah Snook]

I want to talk a little bit more about friendship, but I want to talk about sex for a minute.

[Tonya Moseley]

Okay.

[Sarah Snook]

Sex is a proxy for so many things. Although sex in this series is kind of spoken about in a literal sense and like the things that you want to do before you pass. One of the things that I think I heard you say is like, I have never had to do on screen, like perform self pleasure.

[Tonya Moseley]

And I wanted to ask you about.

[Sarah Snook]

That because that act is so intimate, you know, we do it without being self conscious, you know, because we're often alone. And here you are in front of an entire crew. Right. I can imagine.

[Tonya Moseley]

What was it like and how were.

[Sarah Snook]

You able to get to that truth for yourself in those moments when you had to act out those scenes?

[Michelle Williams]

Mm. So the thing that I'm always looking for, and I think the reason that I go to work is to expand my sense of freedom and that the moments between action and cut, that is a very safe space because nothing bad can truly happen there. The worst that can happen to me is that I feel embarrassed, but that's not going to destroy me, nor is it going to stop me. So I have to continue to tell myself that that is my time to get free. And that's kind of my mantra. Get free, get free, get free. And so I return again to that idea of it is possible to be both scared and brave at the same time. So I had to tell myself that a lot before those scenes and really hold on to this idea of relaxation, expansion and freedom.

[Sarah Snook]

One of the other things I was thinking about is, you know, when I was coming of age, of course we know, like sex is for everyone as a consenting adult, but really the message that you're told as a woman is that sex is for men and that you're performing for them. This series actually made me kind of think about that in new ways at this old age that I hadn't thought about. What about for you?

[Michelle Williams]

Same Same. The consideration of one's own pleasure was not in the conversation. When I was coming of age, it was, listen, first of all, you shouldn't do it.

[Sarah Snook]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[Michelle Williams]

If you have to, you'll probably suffer a tragedy, get sick or die.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right, right.

[Michelle Williams]

So it seemed pretty scary and loaded and it's certainly taken me a long time to unpack. And I just, I do believe that things will be different for my daughter.

[Sarah Snook]

Oh, say more. What do you mean?

[Michelle Williams]

I see her generation and their radical acceptance of each other and themselves, and I see, I see them working together with more equality than certainly would I was raised with. Look, I hope I'm not just talking about Brooklyn. I want this.

[Jeremy Strong]

I hope you're not talking about Brooklyn.

[Sarah Snook]

Where you guys live. No, I think I know what you mean. Because I have an 18 year old daughter and every time I listen to she and her friends, I think like, wow. I mean, they're just so far and beyond where I was at that age.

[Michelle Williams]

That's what I think. I just think, oh, she's just light years ahead of where I maybe even am. She teaches me. She is proud of me and accepting of me. And even this show, she's like, you go, mom. Or like, I did a magazine cover that was racy and she said, you look amazing. And so I don't know if it's cultural, I don't know if it's familial, I don't know if it's title, I don't know if it's. But I'm seeing a rapid push in developmental readiness as it relates to my daughter.

[Sarah Snook]

Thinking back to something you were saying about friendship and that communal connection that you've been able to foster and feel with friends. Your eldest daughter Matilda's dad is the late Heath Ledger. And you've spoken so beautifully about your friend and award winning actor Jeremy Strong, how he was such a strong presence in your life after Heath's death. Almost like he moved in quite literally and became what you needed in that moment. Can you share what it meant to have a friend like that during such a profound time in your life?

[Michelle Williams]

Well, that was the period of time in my life when there were sort of multiple people going in and out of that house. Like I referenced my friend Daphne. We shared a bedroom and a closet and a bathroom. And then Jeremy was there, my sister was there. We had a name. I think maybe Jeremy came up with it and he called it Fort awesome. And it was like Pippi Longstocking or something. Something what you imagine as a child you know, you imagine this place where you could go and you could make some of the rules and you would be together and there would be, it would be full of fun and play and ideas and personalities and acceptance and love. And he had sort of imagined this place as a child that he, his child, mine would call Fort Awesome. And he said, I think that was kind of like what that time was. It was like Fort Awesome.

[Sarah Snook]

What did that look like? Because I think you said like you described Jeremy as serious enough to hold the weight of a broken heart, which is so powerful and sensitive enough to approach her through play.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly. That was, that's my friend. That's who I've known for a long time. That's who I know now and raise my children with great proximity to his children. But that at the heart of what he does and who he is that maybe you don't get to witness if you don't know him in the way that I do is this delight in play. So he would be engaged for as long as Matilda wanted to be on Fairy Princesses or Tea Parties or Dress Up.

[Tonya Moseley]

Our guest today is award winning actor Michelle Williams, star of the FX series Dying for Sex. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR weekend.

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[Sarah Snook]

To the Dawson's Creek days. Okay, so your breakout role was as Jen Lindley. She's this rebellious girl from New York City who goes to Capeside to live with her conservative grandmother. You were 16 years old, right, when the season started?

[Michelle Williams]

I was, yes. Yes, 16.

[Sarah Snook]

It just sounds like it was a big moment for you in understanding who you are and your taste. What was it about that experience that kind of was that flashpoint for you?

[Michelle Williams]

Well, something that happened to me when I was making that show is that I met Mary Beth Peel, who played my Grams. And Mary Beth Peel is an esteemed, beloved New York stage actress. And she showed me plays. And then I started going up to New York City. I would get in my car in North Carolina and I would drive 12 hours for the weekend.

[Sarah Snook]

By yourself?

[Michelle Williams]

By myself. I would go see a movie and a play and walk this little stretch of 6th Avenue. And then I would get in my car and drive 12 hours home. And what I started seeing when I got to New York City were ideas of things that I would like to.

[Sarah Snook]

Be a part of.

[Michelle Williams]

And then I had this woman, Mary Beth, who was encouraging me and saying that I should try and that she thought that I could. And that was at a time when nobody had ever said anything like that to me before. That I could be in movies or I could be in plays, or I could make things that mattered to me. I had come from a very different environment. I'd been working on and off as an actor in Los Angeles. I'd been working since I was 12. I was emancipated at 15, and living on my own for about, I don't know, half a year or something before I got Dawson's Creek. And so I was coming from Los Angeles and this sort of idea of, you know, if you can get a national commercial, it'll last you a year. And that's what I wanted for myself. If you could get on a TV show that would. You could support yourself. And that's what I wanted for myself. And then I went to New York City and I thought I was introduced to this whole other expression of the medium that I'd never been exposed to. I think growing up, I'd just seen the Sound of Music and Mary Poppins and things like that. I didn't really know what was possible.

[Sarah Snook]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

And then I started to make New York City home. I did my first play there when I was 18. And it became the place that I would spend the summers and the weekends and just kind of a place that I thought, oh, I could make a life for myself here.

[Sarah Snook]

Because you didn't go to formal school, of course. Now you've lived the school of life.

[Tonya Moseley]

Like, 10 times over. Right.

[Sarah Snook]

But do you Feel any insecurity about that or does that ever come up for you where you're thinking about, like, this is a bit of knowledge that maybe if I had gone to school, I would have known it. Oh, all the time.

[Michelle Williams]

I am constantly confronted by the things that I don't know and like, what real gaps where information should be. Geography. Okay, yeah, I could go on and on, but I think maybe that's why work has become, you know, that's my conduit to the world. That's my. This is the thing that I've spent the most time trying to gain an understanding of and why it was so important to me, because without it, I really had nothing to show for myself. I had no institution behind me. That said, I accredit you in, in this particular way. And so then where do you get a good feeling about yourself? So my work has meant so much to me because it's been. It was where I got to know myself. And I thought, well, maybe if I could get a little bit good at this thing, I could get a little bit of that self esteem.

[Sarah Snook]

I want to ask you about a really big moment in 2019, your Emmy Award speech when you won Outstanding Lead Actress in a limited series for Fosse Verdon. I want to play a little bit of it and then we'll talk about it briefly on the other side. Let's listen.

[Heath Ledger]

I see this as an acknowledgement of what is possible when a woman is trusted to discern her own needs, feels safe enough to voice them and respected enough that they'll be heard. When I asked for more dance classes, I heard, yes. More voice lessons, yes. A different wig, a pair of fake teeth not made out of rubber. Yes. And all of these things, they require effort and they cost more money. But my bosses never presumed to know better than I did about what I.

[Michelle Williams]

Needed in order to do my job.

[Heath Ledger]

And honor Gwen Verdon. And so I want to say thank you so much to FX and to Fox 21 Studios for supporting me completely and for paying me equally, because they understood, because they understood, understood that when you put value into a person, it empowers that person to get in touch with their own inherent value. And then where do they put that value? They put it into their work. And so the next time a woman, and especially a woman of color because she stands to make 52 cents on the dollar compared to her white male counterpart, tells you what she needs in order to do her job, listen to her, believe her. Because one day she might stand in front of you and say, thank you for allowing her to succeed because of her workplace environment and not in spite of it.

[Jeremy Strong]

Thank you.

[Sarah Snook]

That was my guest, Michelle Williams in 2019. I still get chills when I hear you were so profound and clear eyed. I always wondered, like, do you, like, practice the speech before you go up there? Because that's such a. Such a detailed speech.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank you. I spent a long time working on it. I knew if given the opportunity, I knew of what I wanted to say and that you have a very short time to say it. And so it needs to be as perfect as you can make it. And then underneath, my hands are like this, My heart is like this. And I was pregnant at the time. And so, you know, also experiencing that. But I felt so connected in that moment to have had these experiences that allowed me to be the conduit for.

[Sarah Snook]

The message these years later. Do you feel, how are you feeling in this moment as someone who you, like, spent your career really trying to show the inner like us as women. Like, you're trying to show the totality of us as human beings. And now we're in 2025, you're finding so much in your daughter Matilda. But then there's so much in the world that we're up against now, five years later, how are you six years later, what are you reflecting on when you hear that speech?

[Michelle Williams]

We're not where I thought we would be. The opportunities of those moments, of the MeToo movement, of the Black Lives Matter movement, I hope that they are underground and that they will come back and that there will be a resurgence of the optimism and the momentum that we were enjoying.

[Sarah Snook]

Are you feeling optimistic?

[Michelle Williams]

No. Are you?

[Sarah Snook]

I'm thinking about what you said about your daughter. I feel optimism when I look at my kids.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I feel optimistic about them. Yeah.

[Sarah Snook]

I feel optimistic when I watch shows like Dying for Sex, which was hugely meaningful to me. And you said, like, you take a piece of every project and character and you grow with it and it goes to the next thing for you. What are you taking away from dying for sexual pleasure?

[Michelle Williams]

Baby, pleasure.

[Sarah Snook]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Get it right. Get it. It belongs to you. And that humor is not a way to make a joke in a sad situation. That humor is a way to make something whole and complete and also a way to remember something better. You know, when we. We don't want to remember the sad times, we want to remember the good times, the happy times. And so if you can find the. There's a line from a poet that I like. The light underbelly of the dark. Dark beast, you will be able to transport yourself back to those moments and relive them and be there with them. So the reclamation of humor, especially in or the acknowledgement or the insistence on looking for it, on finding it because it's there, it just needs to be found. So the insistence on continuing to find the humor, but most of all the pleasure, because they can't take that away from us.

[Sarah Snook]

Man, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank you so much for being here.

[Tonya Moseley]

Michelle Williams stars in the FX series Dying for Sex, now streaming on Hulu. German born writer Daniel Kellman was shortlisted for the International Booker Prize in 2020 for his novel Till. His latest novel, the Director, is set largely in Nazi Germany and raises questions about art and collaboration. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan has this.

[Maureen Corrigan]

Review in the German Legend, Faust signs a contract with the devil, exchanging his immortal soul for vast knowledge and other earthly rewards. It's a cut and dried transaction. In Daniel Kellman's new novel the Director, the demonic deal making is murkier, more drawn out. Little by little, a series of compromises eat away like acid at the integrity of a once great artist. Not only is Kellman's rendering of the Faustian bar more psychologically plausible than the original, but it takes its inspiration from a true life story. The Director is an historical novel based on the life of G.W. papst, the early film director who worked with actresses like Louise Brooks, Lottie Lenya and Greta Garbo. Pabst's career moves were circuitous and puzzling, which makes him a tasty subject for historical fiction. He was born in Austria and worked in theater in New York as a young man. Then, after World War I, he became one of the most influential directors in Germany. Pabst moved to Hollywood in the 1930s and was a temporary and less successful member of that emigre colony of filmmakers that included Otto Preminger and Fritz Lang. On a trip to France in 1939 to make a film and visit his mother, Pabst was stranded by the outbreak of war and returned to Nazi Germany. Enter the devil in the form of Propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. In Kelman's Reimagining, Goebbels cunningly wields a stick and a carrot. He alternates the accusation that Pabst was a communist who belongs in a concentration camp with appeals to Pabst's ego, bruised by Hollywood's treatment of him as a highbrow hack in Germany. Goebbels promises Pabst will make artistic films sublime films, films that touch the German hearts of good, deep, metaphysical people, to oppose the American cheap commercial trash with a resounding no. It's an offer Pabst feels he can't refuse. As a novel, the director itself joins the pleasures of commercial fiction with the moral weight of a novel of ideas. Kelman clearly has fun vividly invoking a sun splashed Hollywood party where Billy Wilder cavorts in a cowboy hat and studio execs casually confuse the emigre filmmakers with one another. But comedy turns sinister and surreal in later sections where Pabst and his family return to their castle in Germany, where the caretaker, now the local Nazi party leader, relegates them to the basement. And then there's the absurdist scene where Pabst directs close Hitler confidant Leni Riefenstahl in an imagined film. As the extras shipped in from a nearby detention camp look on, Reifenstahl insists that Pabst retake the scene some 21 times. Each time, Reifenstahl's performance is terrible, but Paps quickly catches on that it's dangerous to tell her anything, but it's perfect, just perfect again. Perhaps Kelman's greatest accomplishment is that he manages to raise larger themes through compact dialogues. Here, for instance, is a conversation about art and morality that he conjures up between Pabst and his wife, Trudi, who was an actress and writer. All this will pass, Pabst tells Trudi, but art remains. Even if it remains, Trudi asks the art? Doesn't it remain soiled? Doesn't it remain bloody and dirty? Pabst responds this way. And the Renaissance? What about the Borgias and their poisonings? What about Shakespeare who had to make accommodations with Elizabeth? He adds, the important thing is to make art under the circumstances one finds oneself in. Referencing his film Paracelsus, Pabst says Paracelsus will still be watched 50 years from now, when this nightmare is long forgotten. When do compromises turn into full blown capitulation? How many accommodations can someone make with evil before they themselves become part of the evil? Do we forget nightmares, or is history just the reliving of them? Or over and over again? The director doesn't answer these questions, cannot answer them, but it leaves them rattling around in our minds like a roulette wheel that never stops spinning?

[Tonya Moseley]

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed the Director by Daniel Kelman. Coming up, we hear from actress Sarah Snook. She played Shiv Roy in succession and was just nominated for a Tony for her role in the picture of Dorian Gray. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Tonya Moseley]

She's best known for playing Shiv Roy on the show Succession. Now she's on Broadway in a one person show, an adaptation of the Oscar Wilde story the Picture of Dorian Gray. Last week she received a Tony nomination for best leading actress in a play. She spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Baldonado.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

It's hard to describe Sarah Snook's performance in the Picture of Dorian Gray. Snook plays all 26 characters in this stage adaptation of Oscar Wilde's novel from 1890. It feels like you're watching a two hour sprint. She's giving a nonstop monologue, a crazy athletic solo performance. For those who don't remember this gothic horror story, it's about a young man, Dorian Gray, who falls in love with his own beauty. When an artist friend paints a portrait of him. He loves his own image so much that he makes a wish, a Faustian bargain that allows him to stay young and beautiful while his portrait ages and decays. The show uses pre recorded snippets of Snoop playing different characters projected on huge video screens. There are cameras, iPhones and lightning quick costume and set changes all used to tell this story that culminates in Dorian spiraling and ultimately facing his sins and his mortality. When Sarah Snook did this play for a run in London last year, it earned her an Olivier Award, which is the British equivalent of a Tony. This isn't the only award that she's received. She won an Emmy and two Golden Globes for playing fan favorite Shiv Roy, the daughter of Logan Roy on the succession. Sarah Snook was born in Australia, where she went to drama school and received many accolades for her work on stage and screen. Her films include Jobs the Dressmaker and Memoir of a Snail. Sarah Snook, welcome to FRESH air.

[Jeremy Strong]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, the creator of this adaptation, Kip Williams, a fellow Australian, when he approached you about taking on this role or these roles, what was your response? I read that you said that if you had seen the show, you might not have agreed to do it.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yes. Well, I was pregnant at the time and I think I was like seven months or something. And, you know, my first baby. And so that kind of ignorance is bliss, kind of world of what is to come. And the efforts of parenting at the same time as doing this particular show was if I had seen the show, I think my husband, particularly if he had seen the show, he would have said, this is not, this is not a good idea.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

This is not something you do if you have a newborn.

[Jeremy Strong]

No, this is not possible. I mean, it's not impossible, obviously, but it takes a lot of concentration and support, not just from myself, from the family and from my team.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

As we've mentioned, you play all characters in this show and you're also the narrator of this story. How do you differentiate between the characters? Do you develop the characters in the same way you would if you were just playing one part in a play? If you were slumming it and only playing one part?

[Jeremy Strong]

I know, how am I gonna go back to just playing one character? I don't know what, what comes after this? What tops this sort of overstimulation of characters to differentiate between the characters? I think lots of different things. In some ways, a blessing and a curse. We had only two weeks of rehearsals before doing the pre recorded portion of the show at the end of 2023. And so really meant that I had to make sharp and considered decisions quite early. And part of that was created out of doing a lot of voice work with Geraldine Cook, my voice coach in Australia, and working on what timbre and tone and pitch and speed, pace, et cetera, each of the characters had, and accent, as well as what physicality came from that. It's very much a physical sensation of each character sits somewhere differently in my body.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

And how do you develop these different voices? If you could talk a little bit more about that and then how do you keep them straight?

[Jeremy Strong]

I think the process of finding it in the body with the voice and the physicality really helped because When I come to perform them, you know, the. Basil, for instance, is very. His very. The tone of his voice or the. The temper of his voice perhaps, is quite brittle.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Basil is the artist who did the portrait.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, he's the artist. So he sort of sits quite on the gum ridge, just behind the teeth. And there's something centralized, I guess, like, it's very focused down and. Right. It's hard to explain, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. And there's a, you know, quite an obvious clue for Lord Henry where the narrator says, said Lord Henry languidly. So there's quite a expansive quality to Lord Henry, and there's something that's very. Somewhat like molasses, like, he is very juicy and. And. And also something about aristocratic British men who are able to hold court and. And speak, you know, widely on subjects. Lord Henry has quite a deep voice, but he. They actually have quite a range of pitch in their voices. And if you listen to Stephen Fry, he's talking up right at the top level of his pitch and then right down at the bottom in the same sentence. And it really holds your attention. And that was something we really wanted to find for Lord Henry.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Now, in an interview, I heard you say that when you were a kid, you used to love listening to cassettes of poems of Roald Dahlia and you used to memorize them. And I tried to find it online, I couldn't actually find it, but I was thinking that if you memorize those poems and they were read by British actors, listening could have been, like, great training for you doing the Picture of Dorian Gray, which is a bunch of different flowery British characters.

[Jeremy Strong]

It absolutely was. It was such a strange, strange, like, thing to have as a reference, like a real body reference, really, from my childhood, of Roald Dahl's Revolting Rhymes, which, weirdly enough, I think Miriam Margulies read one of the characters or one of the poems. And when I met her, I didn't realize this until I. Until I was thinking about the Roald Dahls element of it all and went back and I was like, oh, man, I should have told her that. She was such an inspiration to me as a kid through her voice, through the ability, like, how her storytelling and characters really spoke to me when I was a kid.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Through the help of cameras and recordings of you doing the other parts. You're actually acting opposite yourself. Is it odd to be acting with yourself as a scene partner and this is like a version of yourself that was recorded a few years ago?

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, it's really it's really strange. It's really strange because. Well, what it does, particularly because I can't see myself ever, really. There's only once that I can see myself, which is the character of Alan Cow. But otherwise I just have to listen to the. The audio recording aspect of it because I'm either back of stage or I'm in front of the screen or I'm behind the screen. I can't. I can't interact with it in that way. It really forces you to listen to. To what the person is saying, to what I'm saying, and forces you to be really imaginative. Really. Really, you know, engage with your imagination and how that makes you feel and what words are springing out to you tonight and what parts of the tone or how it's been delivered are springing out. And maybe that's come from. Yeah. Listening to audiobooks when I was a kid a lot, and having that imagination sustained in that way.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, the performance is highly choreographed. You have to be very precise. You have to get to a mark or where you're supposed to be in time for you to interact with a recording that you performed as another character. You say there are sequences where you have, like, seconds to get lines out, otherwise the scene cues will be off.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, they'll just keep going. They're the worst kind of actors that I'm working with.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

They don't wait for you.

[Jeremy Strong]

They don't wait for me at all. They'll just barrel on. And if I don't keep up, it's my fault. Yeah. I mean, the hardest one of that is the Lord Henry sequence in the dinner party scene where there's.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

And you're playing all those seven other guests.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah. How many is it, Dorian? Two, three, four, five, six. Six, I think. Yeah. I'm all of the. It's all me.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

You're playing all the other guests. Yes.

[Jeremy Strong]

But, you know, like, I don't. I don't think of them as me at all. I think of them as the characters.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

One thing I want to add about the play is that it's funny. Not only the turns of phrases or the performance, but there's also this cheekiness to it. Like, the narrator is a bit cheeky. And there are also other choices that you make. The way you switch from character to character can be quite funny.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah. I mean, it is a lot of fun to do. And the narrator really is, in a sense, Oscar Wilde. You know, I'm not playing him as a character, but there is. His energy and his wit is definitely infused naturally into that Role because it is the character based on the prose of the book. You know, it's Kip's. Turned a Victorian novel into a play. And a Victorian novel that wasn't meant to be read out loud, you know, wasn't like a Dickens or anything like that. It was. It was meant to be read and in episodic form in a way. So somewhat difficult to turn that into dialogue as well as into something that is accessible to an audience now. And part of creating that has been to keep the wit that Oscar Wilde has inherently in that text.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I want to ask about succession. The show is about a rich and powerful family. The patriarch, Logan Roy, played by Brian Cox, runs a media company. His health is deteriorating, and his children are jockeying for. For control of the company, for power, and, of course, for their dad's love. You said that originally you didn't want to audition for the role of Chevroy. I'm guessing this would have been like, over around 10 years ago now. Why didn't you think the role was right for you at the time?

[Jeremy Strong]

I think because I, you know, personally, I don't have any experience via association or proximity with wealth at that point, that level. But I also didn't understand the show so much, and I didn't. I didn't at that time want to be a secondary kind of handbag character to the men in the show who were gonna be, you know, I think billions had just come out, and I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I can see that it's straight white men in business, and there's no room for me there. So I don't think I'll have a very interesting through line. And maybe I don't think I'm gonna get this role anyway. So I don' Want to audition. And my friend, I was auditioning for something else and already had hair and makeup on, which is such an effort when you're doing self tapes. I don't know, other people might not think it is, but I find it a real effort doing a self tape in the first place. But I was doing a self tape for something else. And so my friend did just read the lines, let's just have fun. Let's just try and do it. And I am forever grateful for her.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Do you remember what you did or what your take on it was that might have sort of, even though you originally didn't think it was the role for you, made them take note of you to be Shiv?

[Jeremy Strong]

I don't know. I mean, there probably was a level of insouciance or attitude about not feeling right for this. And, like, you know, without using it as a Succession word. F you for making me audition for this when you know I'm not right for this. Like, that's a bit shiv, to be honest.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Like, that's, like, a little above it, but also, like, showing up angry and wanting to win the test.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, exactly. Wanting to win the test. There you go. Yeah.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, it occurred to me that the way Succession was filmed may have had some similarities to the way you perform your current role in Dorian Gray. I think that for Succession, there were numerous cameras following the cast as they did scenes. Kind of like the cameras that follow you on stage. Are there similarities?

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, there are similarities. I mean, very different in terms of the specificity required for Dorian and the fluidity allowed in Succession. But something about the proximity of cameras and the. The kind of subtextual or subconscious awareness of them as a character in both Succession and Darien has been really useful to have experienced that in succession. It was never like, they are definitely a character, and we're gonna dramaturgically make them feel like that. But just the presence of, you know, like, Gregor, one of the camera operators. One point, he was on the other side of the couch. I was doing the scene. He's behind my back on the other side of the couch. I look over, yep, he's still behind me on the other side of the couch. And within three seconds, I turn and throw another line back over my shoulder, and he's right behind me. He has crossed the couch somehow. He's, like, leapt over it with a camera in hand. And that kind of agility from the couc operators, both in Dorian and Succession is very similar.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Wait, so you would sort of perform the scenes, and it was kind of the camera people's job to sort of anticipate where you might go with it.

[Jeremy Strong]

Yeah, in some sense, yeah. We would do a director's rehearsal, and we would know the approximate areas that we would need to be in. And then they. The camera operators with direction from the cinematographer and the director would be telling them, you know, be in this. Okay, double down on that line. Keep going. Or, you know, do a crash zoom to here or there. Like being in the right areas and the right spots. We would tend to light the room for the scene or light one side and then the other side. So there was no, like, coming down the line. Set up, set up, set up. Changing the lights, each shot, each frame. It was very. Just. Yeah, a lot of freedom in that way of working. And I loved It. It was great. It meant that the scenes really had a lot of energy between the characters and that we, in that particular way of working, we had a lot of space to fill in the gaps, I think. And that was where, you know, the camera operators and the DP knew, okay, well, we know that Sarah's in the corner in this setup, but actually, she's been told, you know, as is always the case in succession, you're likely to be on camera, so have an opinion on everything. Like, you know, just be acting. You can't just sit back and relax for a moment. And that kind of attention to what's happening in front of you is really fun to work with, but then also was really valuable for transitioning onto something like Dorian, because you're never sitting back. You're never, oh, I'm not on camera. So I can just switch off for a second. It's. You're always on. You're on stage. You're always on.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah. The thing about your character, Shiv, she's an observer. She sometimes hangs back and watches as her brothers, her father, people in the company interact, and she seems to process it, and you can see that on your face. Can you talk about how you thought about Shiv as an observer?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Strong]

I mean, sometimes it just came out of me as Sarah, feeling like I couldn't compete in the level of, like, comedy, humor, or improv that Kieran, at the level that he's able to deliver. So half the time, it was like, I just keep my mouth shut and have an opinion that I'll keep to myself. The camera will pick it up. And that sort of somewhat developed into a character choice, as much as it was an acting choice, an actor's choice. But, yeah, I think it's right for her, though, as the younger sister of oftentimes a room full of men, you're just kind of like, all right, what? Let me watch my stupid older brother and my even stupider older brother and my even stupider older brother fight themselves out and tear themselves down and get themselves into a knot. And then here I am, dad. You know, I've just. I've just been sitting here. You know, there's a cunningness and, like, a cunning quality to Shiv, and a part of that is just being the observer and waiting her turn.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, Sarah Snook, thank you so much for joining us.

[Jeremy Strong]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Nice to chat.

[Tonya Moseley]

Sarah Snook spoke with Anne Marie Baldonado. Snook recently received a Tony nomination for her leading role in the stage adaptation of the Picture of Dorian Gray on Broadway, where she plays all 26 characters. Fresh air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. FRESH Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

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