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- [00:01]
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- [00:19]
Tonya Mosley
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, the two Academy Award nominated actors, discuss their new film Eleanor the Great, Johansson's directorial debut. It's about a woman who starts passing off her deceased friend's Holocaust survival story as her own. Also Grammy winning producer Mark Ronson on his new memoir, Night People, a love letter to late night New York City and how his early days spinning records shaped everything that came after. He's 50 now and still DJing. But some things have definitely changed.
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Mark Ronson
I used to be leaving the club and like dialing the dealer on the way out of the club and now I'm making an appointment with my acupuncturist online as I'm leaving the club because my back is just so jacked.
- [01:11]
Tonya Mosley
That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.
- [01:16]
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- [02:47]
Tonya Mosley
I'm Tonya Moseley, a 94 year old woman displaced in grieving the loss of her best friend and roommate, makes an audacious choice. She begins telling her deceased friend's story of surviving the Holocaust as if it were her own. It's deceptive and morally complicated, but for Eleanor, it's the first time in years she truly feels seen. That's the premise of Eleanor the Great, a poignant and humorous film that moved first time director Scarlett Johansson to tears when she initially read the script. To honor the story's weight, she cast actual Holocaust survivors alongside her. Lead at the center is June Squibb, 94 years old and having the creative run of her life. The Academy Award nominated actor has worked for over six decades, but it wasn't until Nebraska in 2013 that she became a household name. Now with Eleanor the Great, following her recent triumph in Thelma, she's starring yet again as the lead in a story that centers on the very real experiences of someone still navigating life in their 90s. Johansson herself knows something about breaking barriers. The two time Oscar nominee has navigated the industry since she was a kid. She's built a career that spans intimate dramas like Marriage Story and global blockbusters like the Avengers films. And now she's directed a film that explores grief and forgiveness. And who has the right to tell someone's story? Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb. Welcome to FRESH air.
- [04:24]
June Squibb
Thank you.
- [04:24]
Scarlett Johansson
Thank you very much.
- [04:26]
Tonya Mosley
Well, June, you have this sharp wit in Eleanor the Great. We have seen this in several of your roles, but there is this mix of bite and charm and I want to give listeners a sense of it. I want to start with a scene from early in the film. Eleanor, your character and her best friend Bessie, played by Rita Zohar, are shopping for kosher pickles. And when a stock boy makes the mistake of saying he thinks that all pickles are basically the same and Eleanor basically lets him know what she thinks about that.
- [04:59]
June Squibb
Excuse me, we are the closest kosher. They're supposed to be right here. I guess we're at. Hello. Do you have in the back maybe?
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Mark Ronson
Well, we have a bunch of other pickles right here. And honestly, I think all pickles taste the same.
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June Squibb
Excuse me, Eleanor. No. Are you listening to this? All Pickles are the same. I heard. Hey, Charlie, nice name. How long you been working here, Charlie?
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Mark Ronson
I don't know, like a few weeks.
- [05:40]
June Squibb
That's cute. Well, yesterday was delivery day. And you know how I know that? Cause we've been coming here every Friday for the last 16 years. Can you count to 16, Charlie? Well, here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to the back. Bessie, point to the back so Charlie doesn't get lost. You're going to turn left at the shampoo. Go all the way down the aisle. Now, I know it's complicated.
- [06:10]
Mark Ronson
Check.
- [06:10]
June Squibb
But stay with me and you'll find the pickles that my friend needs. Okay? Okay. Go fetch.
- [06:21]
Tonya Mosley
That was my guest, June Squib in Eleanor the Great, directed by Scarlett Johansson. June, the scene is definitely funny, but there is something more going on here because Eleanor is kind of asserting herself at the two of them. Dismissed. And it's something that plays throughout the entire film. What drew you to this character?
- [06:45]
June Squibb
I just felt she was such a human character and had so many feelings and she kept revealing herself. Something new about her constantly in the script and all that was very attractive to me and it was well written. So I just felt, yeah, I want to do this.
- [07:05]
Tonya Mosley
Is it true that you wrote Scarlet a letter once you signed on to this, asking her to be a part of it?
- [07:13]
June Squibb
Yes, when Scarlett was interested in directing it and the producers asked me if I would write a letter and they were going to include it in the package of letters or whatever it was they were sending Scarlett to try to convince her to direct the film. So I did. I don't think I said too much in it. I think probably something like, will you come and do the film?
- [07:35]
Scarlett Johansson
And then June offered me a large cash sum which I still have not yet received.
- [07:40]
June Squibb
Oh, I didn't. Maybe a mocha blended or something like that, but not money.
- [07:49]
Tonya Mosley
Scarlett, I mentioned that this script made you cry when you read it. Do you remember that moment when you just knew you had to be a part of it?
- [07:55]
Scarlett Johansson
Well, I, firstly was I had received the COVID letter from June. Yeah, I didn't know anything about the script, only that June Squibb wanted to take on a leading role. And what could it be at this stage in her career? I mean, June said she turns a lot down. I'm sure she must, because, you know, it's such a huge effort to commit to something like this for any actor. And I was just very intrigued. And it was clear to me upon first reading it, okay, this is a character who suffers this devastating loss, and she is having this, you know, very challenging time, navigating this move back to Manhattan after 40 years of not living there. And she's a 94 year old woman who feels, you know, invisible in this, in the current, you know, economy environment. And, you know, then all of a sudden, this plot twist, you know, which you described earlier, this lie that Eleanor tells, you know, in a moment of, I think, real deep loneliness, isolation, an attempt to connect with a community. And what grows out of that lie was so unexpected. It just felt very. It was surprising. And it's rare to feel surprised when you read a script. A lot of times, scripts are very formulaic or they're based on, you know, IP that you're familiar with or, you know, you can kind of see where the story is going. But this one just felt really original and unique.
- [09:32]
Tonya Mosley
When you took on the challenge, you're like, okay, this is so interesting. I'm gonna do this. How did you wrestle with those moral questions as a director, making it funny? Because it is very humorous, but also taking on such a heavy topic.
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Scarlett Johansson
Well, I mean, the humor certainly was written in Tori Kamen, who wrote the script. You know, it was a sort of thesis that she built around her grandmother, who she was very, very close with, who similarly moved back to New York after many decades of living away, is a much older woman. And those very biting lines, those salty lines, even from Rita's character, Bessie, some of them are verbatim her grandmother's words. And I grew up in New York. I had a Jewish grandmother who also could be very dry, and she was very funny. And I don't know that humor felt. It was like dialogue vocabulary that I just got, and so that was baked in. And, of course, having June, with her incredible comedic timing and her expression and her vocal cadence, and she's the perfect person to be delivering those zingers. But as far as the sensitive balance and subject matter, I think as a director and I think even as an actor, too, it's not really my job to kind of judge these characters and what they do or if I have any judgment. Yeah, I'm probably not the right person to be supporting the story. I think it's. You know, I hope that the audience, if I do my job right by the end of the film, is able to abandon any judgment and have empathy and compassion for the characters and certainly for Eleanor's deception and understand why she does what she does. Mm.
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June Squibb
Mm.
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Tonya Mosley
Scarlett, you made this intentional choice to cast real Holocaust survivors and the group support scenes. How did that idea come together?
- [11:47]
Scarlett Johansson
I think it was pretty obvious that that was necessary, because when you start to talk about casting people for. Just felt kind of like a phony. I wouldn't even know what I would be looking for. Exactly. It just felt very important and a must an absolute must that we identify survivors that wanted to participate and then were able to participate. And, you know, can we create an environment where, you know, those people could sit with us for a couple of days and not, you know, in general comfort? You know, luckily living in New York, you know, there was a lot of different roads that we could kind of go down. Jessica Hack 2's a fantastic actor and extraordinary in the film, who plays Lisa, Eleanor's daughter. She is very involved in the Jewish community here in New York. And so she was able to identify a couple of our survivors just through the community. And also we, you know, we worked with Rodef Shalom, the temple that we shot the film, actually, where Eleanor's character was bat mitzvahed. They helped us to identify some. Some people. The Shoah foundation also helped us out. So we just kind of sent out the bat signal. And we were very, very fortunate to be able to come up with a group that we did. And tomorrow we'll be having our screening in New York. And, yeah, we'll be inviting our group to come and enjoy the film with their family. I'm so excited for them to see.
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Tonya Mosley
It because that population is dwindling.
- [13:22]
June Squibb
There are not many very fast. The population is dwindling. And I think it's also why we must keep the story. We must do it, which is what I think Scarlett and I did with this. I mean, we make people look at it and remember and understand.
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Tonya Mosley
Scarlett mentioned that there was a planned bat mitzvah for you in the film. You actually had to learn Torah for this role.
- [13:49]
June Squibb
Yes, I did, and I did.
- [13:51]
Scarlett Johansson
It's a sore subject.
- [13:53]
June Squibb
It's a sore. Because it didn't end up in the film.
- [13:57]
Scarlett Johansson
June was dreaming her Torah portion.
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June Squibb
I was.
- [14:01]
Scarlett Johansson
And then we ended up cutting it. And she was so bummed. You can hear the bitterness in her voice.
- [14:10]
June Squibb
But it didn't make it in the film.
- [14:13]
Tonya Mosley
You gotta find a way to have that out there as an excellent.
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June Squibb
Or Scarlet says, eventually it will get out.
- [14:19]
Scarlett Johansson
It's gonna be on the B sides.
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Tonya Mosley
Yeah. June, as someone you converted to Judaism decades ago, is that right?
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June Squibb
Yes, in the 50s.
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Tonya Mosley
In the 50s, you married someone who was Jewish. That's why. What was that experience like, diving deeper into that story, into those texts where Eleanor's journey. It's also, I would imagine, personal growth.
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June Squibb
It wasn't. And I kept thinking back, you know, if I was sitting studying it or something, and I. I would think back to that time when I was studying Judaism with this wonderful young rabbi in Cleveland. Cleveland Ohio, where you're from. Yeah, it was. It was very exciting. I loved it. I loved doing it, and I loved meeting him and becoming close to him. And we just talked about everything. He was just great, great guy. And he married us. So that was. My husband said he married me. He didn't marry him at all, but it was a very exciting and wonderful part of my life, really was.
- [15:29]
Tonya Mosley
Scarlett, you discovered not too long ago that you had family lost in the Holocaust, is that right?
- [15:35]
Scarlett Johansson
I did, actually. I was on the Henry Louis Gates show Finding youg Roots. And I knew that I had lost relatives in the Warsaw Ghetto, but I certainly didn't know how many. Several members of my family, a whole family of people and young children. And looking at the register, one of the members who had escaped went back after the war and after the ghetto had been destroyed. Really? Yeah. And had to go back and to kind of take a notice of, you know, this is what they died from. This is how old they were. You know, almost like a diary of that. And so to see the handwritten names, ages, you know, children, you know, that they were dying of, you know, whether it was listed either starvation or, you know, diarrhea or. It's so profound and moving and horrifying just to hold that document. Yeah. And I've spoken to friends of mine, too, actually, who have very similar stories of members of their family that they lost in the Holocaust. Meaning similar in the sense that the details were kind of lost for decades and that actually that friends of mine that are same generation as myself were uncovering the secrets of the past, I think, because there's so. You know, one of the interesting things I think about Bessie's story is that she says, you know, I've not told anyone, not even my own children. And I think a lot of survivors live, you know, holding those stories like a horror they don't want to recount or relive. And so there's a lot of these stories that are still have not been uncovered and, you know, are kind of lost in time. And so if you have a living relative who's lived through the Holocaust, you know, to be able to. I mean, the work that the Shoah foundation does to preserve those stories is so vital, it's so important, especially because the population is dwindling rapidly.
- [17:48]
Tonya Mosley
You mentioned earlier your grandmother and I wondered if you had had a chance to talk with your grandparents about what you had discovered before they passed away.
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Scarlett Johansson
No, I never did. I think it would have been very, very painful. The relatives of mine that I lost in the HOLOC that were lost in the Holocaust, were actually on my maternal side. My mom's father, his family was from right outside of Warsaw. And again, I mean, he was, I think, very removed from that part of his family. It was almost like a shame nobody talked about. Like, don't look back. He would have been devastated to have seen those papers, I'm sure.
- [18:39]
Tonya Mosley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with actress June Squibb, who stars in the new film Eleanor the Great, and Scarlett Johansson, who makes her directorial debut with the movie. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.
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Scarlett Johansson
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- [20:03]
Tonya Mosley
I want to talk a little bit about your career, June. I've heard you say that you knew you wanted to be an actor from the moment you left the womb. And I was just wondering what kind of career did you envision for yourself?
- [20:20]
June Squibb
I think I always thought more I would be on stage. I never thought about film or television as a career. I don't know why, but my early career was the theater, of course. And so, you know, that just seemed what it would be.
- [20:39]
Tonya Mosley
Your Broadway debut was in the musical gypsy in 1959. You developed this nickname, the Dirtiest Mouth on Broadway.
- [20:49]
June Squibb
Yes, because I had a dirty mouth.
- [20:53]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, paint a picture for us. Of course, this is npr, so you can't like use all the pictures.
- [20:57]
June Squibb
No, I won't go into the picture.
- [20:57]
Tonya Mosley
What did that look like?
- [20:58]
June Squibb
I was very quick with the curse words and I looked about 12. I think I was in my 20s when all that happened. 20s or early 30s. And I looked so young. And so it was like, what? What does she. But I had a dirty mouth. There's no other way to describe it.
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Tonya Mosley
Tell me about your path into comedy. When you stepped into theater. Were you always taking on these kind of roles, or how did you find that voice, that comedic side of you?
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June Squibb
It was the Cleveland Playhouse. That's where I was before I came to New York. And I went in as a student, and I ended up on staff, and I was there for five years in all, and that's where I started. I had always danced, but I started singing there, and they put me into almost every musical as the comedienne. And so when I went to New York, I went with a group of people from there, and it was just like everybody assumed this is what I was going to do, and this is what I ended up doing for about 20 years.
- [22:10]
Tonya Mosley
Scarlett, you mentioned that you grew up in New York and your grandmother also lived there, too. Can you talk about your grandmother and the time that you spent with her as a kid and maybe how that informed you directing this movie?
- [22:23]
Scarlett Johansson
Oh, I was very close with my grandmother, Dorothy. She was a fiercely independent woman. She lived independently for forever. She was like a safe haven for me. I would escape to her apartment in Hell's Kitchen most weekends. You know, she introduced me to all the free arts in the city. We would see jazz in Lincoln center, and we would go to the Tisch School and see plays and young playwrights. And, you know, I got so much out of my friendship with my grandmother, and I think. And she just enjoyed me tremendously. And we would talk about everything, you know, everything. Our fan. We talk about the family dynamics. We would talk later on. And when I was older, I would talk to her about boyfriends, sex, our bodies, her experience aging, what she was experiencing physically, politics, all kinds of stuff. We had such a profoundly special, deep friendship. And I think that our friendship really. When I read the script of Eleanor the Great, I was very moved by the friendship between Nina and Eleanor because it did remind me very much of the dynamic I had with my grandmother and the ease we felt in one another's company.
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Tonya Mosley
Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, thank you so much for this film and this conversation.
- [23:56]
Scarlett Johansson
Thank you.
- [23:57]
Tonya Mosley
Thank you. Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb's new film is Eleanor the Great. Music producer and DJ Mark Ronson's new memoir, Night People, takes us back to a New York that no longer exists. Before Mayor Rudy Giuliani's crackdown on Nightlife before camera phones and bottle service transformed the culture forever. It's a story of how a young outsider with a British accent found a place in the 1990s club scene, learning to read crowds, dig through crates and create the perfect mix of venues where the city's tribes collided. Rappers and models, skaters and socialites, everyone glamorous and a little lawless. Night people, as he defines them, are different than people who simply enjoy a night out. They become their best selves once the sun goes down and daytime is just the warm up. Those formative years spinning records would shape everything that came after. Ronson is a nine time Grammy winner, producing career defining albums for Amy Winehouse and Lady Gaga. He's also behind hits like Uptown Funk with Bruno Mars, Shallow from A Star Is Born and the Barbie soundtrack. Mark Ronson, welcome back to FRESH air.
- [25:22]
Mark Ronson
Thank you so much. Thank you, Tanya. Thanks for having me.
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Tonya Mosley
Yeah, you know, Mark, this was a really fun read and it was, it had me thinking that most of us experience the DJ from the dance floor. So this book really gives us a glimpse of what it's actually like for the dj. You're able to just make the room explode by the decisions that you make. And you describe in this book how nothing compares to the first time you feel it. Take me back to the actual first time you actually experienced that rush.
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Mark Ronson
Yeah, I so the first time I had that feeling, I was at my mother's wedding to my stepfather and I think I was 10 years old and they had like a really small little wedding in the garden of this summer rental. And even though my stepdad was this really successful huge rock star, he was in the band Foreigner and, you know, wrote all these songs. I Want to Know what Love Is Waiting For a Girl like youe. It seemed like the music at the wedding was almost an afterthought. Like, I think they were playing like a tape deck in the house that was wired to some speakers in the garden. And then one point as the sun was going down, the music just kind of stopped entirely. Like you heard the cassette kind of snap and Mick just looked at me and he was like, ma, go put something on. And you know, obviously this felt like all the responsibility of the world in my hands, like this little kid obsessed with music. Like my stepdad saying, like, you can control the music, you know, like at this wedding. So I ran in the house and there were all these cassettes on the floor. And I remember like searching through them and there was nothing that seemed right. And then I saw Timepiece is the Best of Eric Clapton. And I was like, ah. And even in my like 10 year old brain, I saw the song Wonderful Tonight on there. And I was like, that is an appropriate song for now. That is like my mom, my mom looks wonderful in her dress and it seems romantic and I'm gonna put that on. I quickly cued it up. They, you know, had some crazy 80s cassette deck with an auto cue and found the song hit play. And I remember standing inside the house looking through the window as my stepdad pulls my mom in for like a sl dance and the moon. And you know, I even say in the book, my memory here is blurry and it might be a little Hollywooded out, but it was like he brought her in, she's luminescent in this dress. And I just stood there watching this scene, slightly drunk off this feeling of like, oh my God, you know, this is my music playing out there. But also it was this thing. It was like the first time in my life I genuinely have a memory of having done something right. So, you know, obviously at that moment that wasn't like my Spider Man Genesis story. I wasn't suddenly like, ah, now I'm gonna be a dj. I didn't even put this together probably till I was writing the book, but it really is one of my most sort of visceral early childhood memories.
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Tonya Mosley
Well, you make this distinction between people who enjoy a night out and night people, people who kind of just become their best selves once the sun goes down. And when did you realize that you were also a night person?
- [28:29]
Mark Ronson
Well, I think it's one of those things, you know, when I was 18, starting out as a DJ in clubs in New York, music was just my passion. So I'm chasing this thing at night because if you're a dj, obviously you work at night. But then as I was writing the book and I started to piece together like, wait, this really tight knit crew of maybe 200 people that we saw at all the time that were all a little broken in their own way, or maybe it's too much of a generalization to say everybody was like, you know, falling apart or a vampire. But there was this thing that just the people that I saw out night after night were people that the daytime was just like a little too, like the bright light of day. It was like too much for people. Maybe they were running from something, running towards something, looking for community. So I realized, you know, I came up with the term night people because I thought that applied to our little cracked community of people.
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Tonya Mosley
You also were raised by night people. You mentioned your mom, you mentioned your stepdad, Mick Jones. He would actually wake you up in the middle of the night on school nights. And I think you were in middle school to get your opinion on Foreigner mixes.
- [29:45]
Mark Ronson
Yeah.
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Tonya Mosley
What do you remember most about those nights?
- [29:48]
Mark Ronson
I just remember thinking it was so cool that he valued my opinion. You know, I was so obsessed with. And he had a home studio, and the idea of being in his home studio, watching him craft these demos and trying to learn how to work these tape machines and stuff was so cool. Like, his home studio was my favorite room in the house. So the fact that he would wake me up at 2 in the morning and be like, play me these mixes from the latest Foreigner songs and ask my opinion. I just. I mean, I've so valued my time spent alone with him because he was out of the house and on tour a lot, and I was so close to him, but also feeling like my opinion meant anything, really meant the world to me, Mark.
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Tonya Mosley
I mean, it's your life, so it's normal for you. But I think for any Foreigner fan, or even those who just are aware of Foreigner, to hear that you were in the room as he was going through these mixes, some of them went on to be very popular songs, iconic songs. Are there things that you remember where you were listening to those beginning, like, the beginning stages of music that would become the tapestry of our lives?
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Mark Ronson
I don't remember specific songs, but I think it was the first time that he brought a mix home and played it for me, and then he played me a mix of the same song, you know, a week later, And I said, I kind of like the other one. I was, you know, nine years old, squeaky English act. Like, I kind of like the other one because it had a. The bass was a bit louder, and he was just like, what? Like, how? And then he checked and with the engineer, like, was the bass louder? And I think after that, he realized I had these sort of, like, bizarre, like, recall for these things, I think he started to value my opinion. But, no, it is crazy to think that I was listening to. As he was like, I want to know what love is in these songs that would become classics. Like, I can't tell you how much of my, you know, opinion actually went into the final product, but it was so. It was so important to me.
- [31:47]
Tonya Mosley
I really can't get over that. He wrote, I want to know what love is about your mother.
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Mark Ronson
I know. And, no, that's insane. And then also the song that he wrote, Waiting for a Girl like youe before he tried to convince my mom that he wrote it for her too. And she was like, not having it. She's like, but you wrote that four years before you met me. But he was like, but I was waiting for a girl like you. I think he was just trying to be romantic or something. But yeah, she wasn't having it.
- [32:16]
Tonya Mosley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with Mark Ronson about his new memoir, Night People, which chronicles his formative years as a DJ in 1990s New York City. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.
- [32:34]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes From NPR sponsor 1Password. Secure access to your online world, from emails to banking, so you can protect what matters most with 1Password. For a free two week trial, go to 1Password.com NPR. This message comes from BetterHelp. As a dad, BetterHelp President Fernando Madera relates to needing flexibility when it comes to scheduling therapy.
- [32:59]
June Squibb
I have kids under 18, so, like.
- [33:03]
Mark Ronson
Time is very limited.
- [33:04]
June Squibb
That's why at BetterHelp, our therapists try to have sessions, sometimes at night, depending on the therapist, or during the weekend. So I think that's what we need to tell the parents.
- [33:13]
Mark Ronson
You're not alone.
- [33:14]
June Squibb
We can help you out.
- [33:16]
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- [33:42]
Tonya Mosley
You paint this vivid picture, but I want to go a little bit deeper into the sheer physicality of your job because I would just guess that New York City is not for the faint of heart for DJs, because today you just have kind of like a computer or a thumb drive with your music. But back then, you had to lug these big crates of records through the city to play gigs. How many crates on average would you take to a gig? And like, where would you jump in a cab? Would you be on a subway? Would you be climbing upstairs?
- [34:14]
Mark Ronson
Oh, my God. I mean, all of it. I mean, so the standard that I would take on any given night was probably three crates, you know, with 100 records each and maybe like a giant bursting bag because you're taking old school disco and classics, old school hip hop, new school hip hop, R and B, reggae, a little bit of house music. So if you're doing a four or five hour set, which is what we're doing most nights, that's what you're bringing. So if I was playing a cool club, I had a bunch of friends with me, everybody wants to get in, get some drink tickets. If I was playing like a not so cool club, like playing one of my uptown like pay the bills gigs at a bar on the Upper east side, nobody was coming with me. And those were the nights when, I mean, I kind of write about it. Like sometimes leaving my apartment would be like that riddle of the teacher in school. The fox, the farmer and the bag of grain and the fox and the chicken and the farmer has to take them across the thing. So I had three crates and put one in my front door to keep the door open. Call the elevator, put one in the elevator, keep the elevator door open, go back for the third one that was in the apartment, put that in the elevator, pick up the one that was in my apartment door, bring that over on the way and kick the one that's holding the elevator door open all the way downstairs. I'm already breaking a sweat. And then repeat the whole thing in reverse. And that was like in the apart, that was only one building where I ever had an elevator. The rest of it were like four or five story walk ups. So you were really like. Yeah, you had broken a sweat before you were even in the cab on the way to the club. But I was 22, you know, my back could take it. It's a little bit.
- [35:54]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. What's your back like today?
- [35:56]
Mark Ronson
Yeah, it's not very grateful to that 22 year old DJ I have like, you know, listen, it's not like maybe being a chef or another intense line of thing where you're just like covered in cuts, bruises and calluses. But I still have. I only found out two years ago that I have this crazy arthritis in my right foot from 25 years. The doctor, when I went in, he was like, oh, I watched a YouTube video of you. I noticed you kind of like really aggressively tap your foot while you're DJing. And I had never thought about this because you're just tapping to the beat. He's like, yeah, that happens to musicians in the Phil. Like even just tapping your foot for 30 years, that's the thing. So I named it DJ Foot because I just want it to be like my own. But no, it's. And then I mean this, I'm not proud of any of this. But like terrible tinnitus I have. My back is completely Messed up from, you know, 25 years of headphones on. You've got your neck crooked to one side, which looked kind of cool, you.
- [36:58]
Tonya Mosley
Know, like that always is kind of the stance.
- [37:01]
Mark Ronson
It's the stance. It looks cool, but it's not. That's not great for you.
- [37:05]
Tonya Mosley
Is there something you miss about it though? I mean, it's much easier now. You just got your computer in front of you, I would guess.
- [37:11]
Mark Ronson
But yeah, you know, in the book, I wanted to keep it as diaristically and just really only in the 90s. And it's really only in the epilogue where I'm walking around downtown with my daughter strapped to me in the Baby Bjorn, seeing the clubs and talking about what it was like then versus now with the laptop, versus the hundreds of records. And a good friend of mine read the book and he said, he said, I really like the book. He goes, it just sounds like you really miss playing vinyl, so you should just only play vinyl till the end of the year. And I don't know why. I was just like, okay. So I just, I started to play records again and been playing out in clubs in Brooklyn and downtown. And it really has been this joyous restart of my love for DJing. So I'm very grateful to it in some ways. But in other ways, like, yeah, carrying those records around is insane. Going down into a basement and coming back up. And like, I used to, I hope this is okay. Like, I used to be leaving the club and like dialing the dealer on the way out of the club. And now I'm making an appointment with my acupuncturist online as I'm leaving the club because my back is just so jacked. But it's been incredible playing vinyl again. Actually, I did. I didn't realize how much I had missed that process.
- [38:28]
Tonya Mosley
I want to talk a little bit about that power and control that you have to move people. There's this night you describe where you made people go literally nuts. It was at a club called Sweet Thang. Can I have you read?
- [38:41]
Mark Ronson
Absolutely. One night around 1am I dropped a new cut called Deja Vu, Uptown Baby. Only a few weeks old, its hometown pride refrain had already taken over every club and radio station in NYC when the chorus hit as the crowd chanted Uptown Baby, Uptown baby We gets down baby loud enough to be heard five blocks away. I ducked the volume and dropped the instrumental to Busta Rhymes. Put your hands where my eyes could see on beat under their voices remixing the room itself. There was a half second delay as their Brains processed what just happened. And then they ignited like an energy rocket from floor to ceiling. For eight bars, it felt like we'd all leapt into another dimension.
- [39:29]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, so in that moment when there's that half second delay for everybody's brains to process what just happened, that must have felt like an eternity. What does that feel like up there where you're taking a chance and trying something new? You're not sure if the crowd is actually gonna respond to it.
- [39:47]
Mark Ronson
It's just. It's such a visceral memory of all the times. Cause there were, you know, thousands of times that I would do that. You would drop the volume. So the whole crowd is chanting, uptown, baby. Uptown, baby. And as they're chanting, that's all they're thinking about. You Drop the Bus rhymes instrumentals. So they're still chanting. There's a split second where they have to realize, oh, my God, he's dropping this other song that we love even more as we're singing under it. So you are literally remixing the room in there. Whenever you do one of those mixes, we used to call them wordplay mixes, where you go from, like, the line in one song, there's a line in Snoop's Gin and Juice where we got. And they ain't leaving till six in the morning. And then on six in the Morning, you go right into Nas Uchiwale, because he's referenced that song. So they Ain't leaving till six in the Morning is now Nas. So you've just done this slick on beat transition from Snoop to Nas. And of course, like, you know, it takes a half second for the brain to realize, but it's still on beat. And you just get this, like, crazy, like, blowback, this charge from the crowd all going like. Oh, at the same time. You know, they call it the scream, the chant, whatever it is. And it's like clay or play doh. Like, the whole crowd is this thing that you're able to mold together. It's incredible. It's kind of why I can't stop DJing. It's like still a feeling that I only get from this one thing, no matter sort of what else I do in my work as a producer.
- [41:24]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, Mark. So the crowds that you're playing for in the early and mid-90s, it was such a blend, as you say, hip hop hits and fashion, kids and artists. But you also write about being Jewish in hip hop, often one of the few white faces and having advantages that most DJs didn't. With your family money and your connections. And I'm wondering, how did you balance being an outsider who, on one hand, you needed to prove yourself with being an insider who already had, like, certain doors open.
- [42:01]
Mark Ronson
Yes, yes, of course. When I started off DJing, like, coming from this, like, nice family uptown with a stepdad who's a rock star, and my mom, who was just, like, larger than life, you know, she was out in the parties, out in the scene in New York, sort of amazing rock and roll artist. Mom. I was horribly embarrassed of all of it, but it's probably like, more in a teenage way when you're just like, oh, mom, like, do you have to come to the club when I'm DJing? Meanwhile, everybody thought it was the coolest thing that my mom came to these, like, hole in the wall basements and clubs. But, yes, I think in this kind of immature way, I thought that that would make me, like, quote unquote, other in this scene where really, like, the scene was just about showing, improving. I remember Funkmaster Flex in an early article in the New York Times, and it was like, I just remember being like, this is the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me is like, he knows. Doesn't matter who his family is, where he's from, he knows how to rock a room, like, blah, blah, blah. And that was like, you know, obviously, Flex at the time was the absolute biggest figure in New York hip hop. But, yes, I did have advantages that other people really didn't have. Of course, my mom bought me the turntables for graduation. I had a stepdad who was a musician who nurtured, like, you know, my musical, what I wanted to do as a kid. So I had to really deal with that and address that really out in the open, in the book. Because, of course, I had advantages and stuff like that, but I also, you know, worked my ass off. And that's kind of like the two sides of the book.
- [43:43]
Tonya Mosley
It also sounded like something you did. And stick with me here. Like, it sounds like maybe that tension also pushed you to find your own lane, to do something different. I actually think I want to reference the ACDC Back in Black moment. You talk about this moment where you took some risks, where you brought in other types of music, not just old samples, but also, like, rock music that actually helped you develop your signature offering. And to do this, I want to actually play a little bit of Back in Black. So we remember what that sounded like. Let's listen.
- [44:48]
Mark Ronson
I got Nine Lions. Katzai is using everyone and every group.
- [44:56]
Tonya Mosley
That was ACDC's classic back in Black. And Mark, you tell this story of how you took this gamble to smuggle this song into what you call the hottest hip hop party on the East Coast. What did you do with it and how did you know it would work?
- [45:11]
Mark Ronson
Well, I absolutely didn't know it would work. So obviously just listening to that song now, it's like anybody with a pulse knows its heart. It's pretty undeniable, that record. And it had been sampled by Rick Rubin for the BC Boys. KRS had sampled it for Boogie down production. It wasn't completely foreign to hip hop, but nobody played that record in the clubs at that time. And I was at this club called Spy Bar one night, which was this very, like, one of the first super trendy, exclusive ultra VIP lounges. Like, I remember being at the door sometimes and watching, like, Trump get turned away. And it was just like it was this. It was this place. Leonardo DiCaprio, whatever, the 90s. Like, it was like the place everybody wanted to be. And the DJs there played a lot of rock and roll. And half of the time I tried to get in, I couldn't get in. But one night I'm in there and they play the song and everybody just starts going crazy and, like, dancing on the couches like it's the Fall of Rome. And I just remember being hit by how powerful that record was. And this was a crowd that was dancing, was very unlike the crowds that I DJ for. But I remember starting to think, God, I really want to play this. At Cheetah, which was the big party on the Monday night, which is where Mike Tyson and Janet Jackson and Missy Elliott, it really was the place. So I worked out this mix all week where I could play the Benjamins by Little Kim and Puff Daddy, which was the biggest song of the time, and go into this rock and roll remix as a transition of that song, and then write on the one as soon as Biggie's verse ended, Play Back in Black. And, you know, obviously, like, it was the kind of club that if I played and fallen on my face, like, it's the kind of place something could get a bottle could be thrown at the booth. Like, you don't really know. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't a place where you really wanted to mess around too much. So I played the thing and I dropped the record. And it's a split second where it's like the crowd is just kind of like, huh. But it's on beat, everybody's still dancing, and there's no chance to kind of Be too judgmental when your body's still moving, right? And it feels. And by the second time the riff came round, the club just kind of erupted. Like there was this incredible feeling, like the crowd, like, just everyone knowing they were doing something they kind of weren't supposed to be doing. Like this song that we weren't supposed to be hearing at Cheetah. I wasn't supposed to be playing, they weren't supposed to be dancing to it. And it was just this great moment. And from that moment on, it did free me up and made me a little more brave. And it's funny because, you know, the mashup era came quite soon after, so it's almost a little ho hum to think of, like, playing back and black in a club. Like, of course, why not? But at that moment, there was nothing like it. But it did help me find my own sound and identity. And that's kind of when I really started to, I guess, get like, crazy gigs and offers because I was doing something that nobody else was doing.
- [48:10]
Tonya Mosley
What are some of the biggest DJing sins, in your opinion? I'll just say, like, I hate when DJ does that. PLAYS THAT HORN like, oh, really?
- [48:21]
Mark Ronson
Oh, my God, the klaxon. Yes. There's something about that that's sort of like. It's a little bit like an extra explosion in a film, right? It's like kind of like, all right, if you're not making me feel it enough with the music. Like, I don't need the horns to be bullied into having a visceral emotion to this music. But I also. I also kind of like the air horn. I mean, there's something about it, like, it feels very New York radio. Yep, yep. The other ones are like. And I sort of talk about them because, you know the book I said how to be a DJ in 90s New York City is the title because it's a little bit tongue in cheek. No one's ever gonna be a DJ in 90s New York City, so. But there are a lot of things in this book that I feel like at any era might sort of like, help out. So there's things like, back in that era, my era, it was a cardinal sin to really play a record more than once in the night. Like, if there was a huge hit, to play it five times throughout the night was like this thing like, oh, you're not good enough to like, to rock a night with only playing the big records once. There was a bit of that sense. There was this thing like, never play all the big records. When you're the opener. In fact, you don't play any big records when you're the opener.
- [49:37]
Tonya Mosley
I remember gjing, like radio hits, like.
- [49:40]
Mark Ronson
Yeah, any of the big club records. Like, I remember opening for Funk Master Flex and being so nervous to like play anything. Like, I, like, I didn't play anything from literally the past seven years or something. And then the idea of like, you know, playing huge records to an empty room, like trying to ignite a room before it's ready.
- [50:00]
Scarlett Johansson
Hmm.
- [50:00]
Tonya Mosley
Before the room is ready. So timing just is such a thing. Like, you have to know it. You have to be so attuned, which means you kind of have to be attuned to human behavior. And it's a sense. Is it something that can be taught?
- [50:15]
Mark Ronson
I mean, that's why they call it, you know the expression reading a room. Like, it's like, I don't know if it literally goes back to DJing, but it's like reading the floor, reading the room, reading the dance floor. It's like there's so much of it that's just. Yes. It's the interplay between you and the crowd. You could be in the best nightclub in the world with the best sound system. It doesn't matter if the crowd isn't with you and you don't have a relationship with them. That's what it all comes down to. Certainly for a great night.
- [50:47]
Tonya Mosley
Mark Ronson, it's such a pleasure to talk to you and thank you so much for this fun read.
- [50:52]
Mark Ronson
Thank you so much.
- [50:54]
Tonya Mosley
Mark Ronson's new memoir about DJing in the 90s New York club scene is called Night People. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley.
- [51:12]
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