Best Of: Stacey Abrams / Raphael Saadiq

Summary

Fresh Air Episode Summary: Best Of: Stacey Abrams / Raphael Saadiq

Released on July 19, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Fresh Air Weekend, host Tanya Moseley engages with two distinguished guests: Stacey Abrams, renowned voting rights activist, former Georgia gubernatorial candidate, and bestselling novelist; and Raphael Saadiq, Grammy-winning musician and producer. The episode delves deep into their professional journeys, creative processes, and the intersection of their work with broader social and political themes.

---

Part 1: Stacey Abrams

Transition to Fiction Writing and 'Coded Justice'

The episode opens with Moseley introducing Stacey Abrams, highlighting her multifaceted career spanning political activism, legislative leadership, and literary accomplishments. Abrams discusses her latest novel, Coded Justice, a thriller that intertwines themes of artificial intelligence, ethics, and justice.

Family Influence and Early Writing

Abrams reflects on her early foray into writing, sharing a poignant anecdote about her first attempt at a novel at age 12:

[05:06] Stacey Abrams: "My very first novel was published right after law school... My first attempt at a novel was when I was 12... It was very, very full of angst."

She emphasizes the role her parents played in fostering a love for storytelling despite economic hardships, describing her upbringing in Mississippi as "genteel poor"—a term coined by her mother to convey refinement amidst financial limitations.

Collaborative Process with Siblings

Abrams attributes much of her creative process to her siblings, who serve as invaluable resources and collaborators:

[07:42] Stacey Abrams: "My sister Leslie was my editor... My oldest sister, Andrea... helped me really think about how to tease out questions of social justice... My brother Richard was a social worker... My brother Walter edited three of my books..."

This collaborative environment has enriched her writing, allowing her to infuse authenticity and depth into her characters and narratives.

Themes in 'Coded Justice' and AI Ethics

Discussing Coded Justice, Abrams elucidates her motivation to explore the duality of technology's neutrality and its ethical implications:

[09:32] Stacey Abrams: "I wanted to talk about a topic where, on its face, the technology is neutral... AI is emblematic of that."

She delves into the potential misuse of AI, inspired by personal conversations and observations of her niece's interactions with the technology, highlighting the fine line between beneficial tool and unethical exploitation.

Political Career and Future Plans

Abrams addresses rumors of a potential third gubernatorial run, clarifying her current focus:

[16:07] Stacey Abrams: "I am really focused right now on the other tools in my toolbox... It's not right now."

She emphasizes her commitment to advocacy through various platforms, including her podcast Assembly Required, her Substack Assembly Notes, and her literary work, while keeping the door open for future political endeavors.

Voter Suppression and Free and Fair Elections

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Abrams's relentless fight against voter suppression:

[18:31] Stacey Abrams: "Voter suppression happens in three ways... It's making certain that students who need to prove their identities can use the one form of ID they have... It's changing the rules up to the last minute."

She outlines the subtle, administrative tactics employed to undermine electoral integrity, drawing parallels to historical voter suppression methods, and underscores the urgency of safeguarding democratic processes ahead of the 2026 elections.

Influence of Faith and Family on Identity

Abrams explores the profound impact of her family's faith and educational values on her personal and professional identity:

[21:14] Stacey Abrams: "Those are the values that guide me, my faith first and foremost. I cannot call myself a Christian and not believe that it is my responsibility to help the stranger... I have to understand."

She articulates a balanced perspective where faith informs her commitment to social justice and education, rejecting selective interpretation of religious texts to justify exclusionary practices.

Authenticity vs. Performance in Politics

Addressing the dichotomy between genuine self-expression and public persona, Abrams asserts her commitment to authenticity:

[24:01] Stacey Abrams: "I am not at all packaged... I make mistakes, I have malapropisms... I try to be honest with myself, with my teams, with the public."

She emphasizes the importance of thoughtful deliberation over instantaneous reactions, aiming to maintain integrity while fulfilling her public responsibilities.

---

Part 2: Raphael Saadiq

Introduction and One-Man Show

Transitioning to the second segment, Moseley introduces Raphael Saadiq, celebrating his extensive career in music as a member of Tony Toni Toné, a solo artist, and a producer for luminaries like Beyoncé and Solange. Saadiq discusses his one-man show, No Bandwidth. One Man. One Night. Three Decades of Hits, which offers an intimate portrayal of his musical journey.

Early Musical Influences and Finding His Voice

Saadiq recounts discovering his passion for music at a young age through church:

[37:19] Raphael Saadiq: "I found my voice probably at Union Baptist... I was asked to sing a song with all the tiny tots."

He describes how early performances, though embarrassing, ignited his desire to pursue music, eventually leading him to embrace his role as a frontman despite initial reluctance.

Collaboration with Beyoncé and Songwriting Process

A highlight of the discussion is Saadiq's collaboration with Beyoncé on her album Cowboy Carter, particularly the song "Bodyguard":

[40:10] Raphael Saadiq: "I was playing the guitar lick and I just wrote the lyrics right there."

[42:13] Raphael Saadiq: "They say the truth hurts, so I lied to you."

He explains the spontaneity behind "Bodyguard," illustrating the serendipitous nature of creative partnerships and Beyoncé's openness to innovative musical elements, such as extended guitar solos.

Philosophy on Music and Creativity

Saadiq shares his philosophy on music creation, emphasizing risk-taking and authenticity:

[49:24] Raphael Saadiq: "What chance are you going to take? If you're playing music, you have to dare to suck."

He advocates for embracing imperfections and prioritizing personal artistic satisfaction over conforming to industry expectations, fostering a genuine connection with audiences.

Process of Writing and Performing His Music

Reflecting on his songwriting process, particularly for film soundtracks, Saadiq highlights the integration of personal experiences and storytelling:

[47:40] Raphael Saadiq: "They want it longer... we can have a 16 bar solo on this record."

He underscores the importance of adaptability and collaboration in creating music that resonates both personally and with broader audiences, demonstrating his commitment to musical excellence and innovation.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Fresh Air Weekend offers an in-depth exploration of Stacey Abrams's dedication to social justice through both political activism and literary endeavors, alongside Raphael Saadiq's illustrious contributions to modern music. Through their candid conversations, listeners gain valuable insights into the interplay between creativity, ethics, and advocacy in shaping impactful careers.

Transcript

[Amazon Healthcare]

This Message comes from Amazon One Medical. Ever gotten sick on vacation? Amazon One Medical has 24. 7 Virtual Care so you can get help no matter where you are. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful. This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.

[Tanya Moseley]

From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley. Today, Stacey Abrams, she's known as a voting rights activist, former candidate for Georgia governor and founder of Fair Fight Action. But she's also a bestselling author and new novel, a thriller revolving around a former Supreme Court clerk investigating a murder inside an AI company.

[Stacey Abrams]

My approach whenever I write about a topic that's not my area of expertise, my mission is to sound smart enough about it in the book that the layperson believes me and the expert respects me.

[Tanya Moseley]

Also, we hear from musician and producer Raphael Siddiq. He's known as a member of Tony, Tony, Tony and as a solo artist. He's produced and written for artists like Solange d', Angelo, Beyonce, John Legend and many more. And Maureen Corrigan recommends two summer nonfiction books. That's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend.

[Capella University]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals. Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized and respected. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more about earning a relevant [e-mail]. this message comes from Amazon. Have you ever been so sick that even the thought of standing up to go to the doctor made you even more sick? Amazon One Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help while horizontal. And with Amazon Pharmacy, you can get medicine delivered fast right to your door. You just have to make it to your door. Thanks to Amazon, Healthcare just got less painful. This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Discover [e-mail] this message comes from Progressive.

[Amazon Healthcare]

Insurance and the name your price tool. It helps you find car insurance options in your budget. Try it [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match, limited by state law, not available in all states.

[Tanya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley. Our first guest today is Stacey Abrams, a name synonymous with political strategy, voting rights, advocacy and literary prowess. She's written dozens of books across genres, from romance and thrillers to nonfiction and children's stories. Her latest thriller, code it justice, is the third installment in a series that centers on Avery Keene, a former Supreme Court clerk turned corporate investigator who steps into the world of AI to examine a system designed to revolutionize veteran health care. But what begins as a promising innovation spirals into profound questions many of us are grappling with today about technology, ethics and justice. Beyond her writing, Abrams served in the Georgia House of Representatives for more than a decade, including as a minority leader, becoming the first woman and first black American to lead either party in the Georgia General Assembly. She ran as the Democratic nominee for governor of Georgia twice in 2018 and 2022, losing both races but drawing national attention to issues of voter suppression, particularly during the remarkably close 2018 campaign. In response, she founded Fair Fight Action, an organization credited with boosting voter turnout in Georgia and contributing to Democratic victories in the 2020 presidential and Senate elections. Stacey Abrams, welcome to FRESH AIR.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you for having me.

[Tanya Moseley]

Stacy. People are surprised even to this day when I was talking about the book, they're surprised to learn that even with all of your books, that you are a novelist and a fiction writer and a romance novelist. When did you realize you could examine power structures through fiction?

[Stacey Abrams]

My very first novel was published right after law school, but my parents will tell you I started writing a lot earlier. My first attempt at a novel was when I was 12. It was called the Diary of Angst. I was a very tortured 12 year old and I had to explain why this boy didn't like me and why my friends were cruel. And, you know, it was it was very, very full of angst and gestalt. My mom actually had it bound for me when I was like 25 as a, I think, both a gag gift and a Christmas gift.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, you still have it?

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. But I grew up with parents who loved storytelling and loved books, but they both understood in their way that they could expand our worlds even if they couldn't afford to give us the world. And so, you know, we grew up in Mississippi. My mom used to call us the genteel poor. We had no money, but we watched PBS and we read books.

[Tanya Moseley]

What did she mean by genteel?

[Stacey Abrams]

So she called us genteel poor because what she wanted us to know is that economically we were not capable or not. We couldn't access all of the riches of the world, but our gentility was that we could. We could still enjoy and be refined and engage. And so we read widely, and we watched PBS and we had tea parties. I mean, some of it was tongue in cheek, but, you know, we're Southern, and so the notions of gentility permeate all things. Where my dad came in was that, you know, my dad was a shipyard worker, and he's also dyslexic. My dad didn't learn to read a functional level until he was in his 30s because he grew up in the Jim Crow south. And because he was dyslexic, they didn't diagnosed dyslexia back then. And even if they had, there weren't the resources available. And so my dad memorized his way through school, gotten himself to college, eventually got himself to Emory University to do a master's degree. But he loved storytelling, and he was just voracious, and he. My mom would share information, and I've watched my dad kind of work his way through a book. My dad has read everything I've written, and I know it's hard for him, but he enjoys the challenge so much. And what that gave me was not just an appreciation of the information I could share share. It was an appreciation of an audience that wanted something to consume. And so for me, the. The joy of my life has been that in every one of my books, my siblings help me in some way. It is a shared project. Sometimes it's just free labor for me, but I have.

[Tanya Moseley]

What do you mean they help you? Do they help you write? Literally, no.

[Stacey Abrams]

No. So they're my resources. So my first romantic suspense novel. My sister Leslie was my editor. She read every word in this latest novel, Coded Justice. My oldest sister, Andrea, is an anthropologist who specialized in dei, and she helped me really think about how to tease out questions of social justice in the midst of this novel. My brother Richard was a social worker, and so when I'm writing those characters and I need to create complexity, I go to him. My brother Walter edited. He's edited three of my books. Meaning I give it to him. I'm like, okay, I need you to read it. Tell me everything you don't like. All of my siblings read different versions of it. My youngest sister, Janine, is a molecular systematist. So on my first Avery Keane novel, she was the one who helped me with all of the biogenetics. So I really have very smart siblings who don't charge me money, and I just put them in the different books. But more than anything, they are my sounding boards. They are very comfortable with telling me, this doesn't make sense. This was a dumb idea. Sometimes they're that blunt about it. Usually, though, it's a. Well, Stacy, have you thought about doing it this way? It's a nice circle of trust, but also they are readers that I trust. So when they give me feedback, I believe what they're telling me and I believe what they say. And I think I can make better product because of who they are.

[Tanya Moseley]

Let's get into code. It justice because it dives into the world of AI. It's the third, as we said in the series, that really explores the. Really after going through them, it feels like you're exploring this theme of trust or the lack of it in our institution. So the Supreme Court, federal surveillance, big tech. What sparked the idea of AI of course, it's at the top of our minds now. It has been for the last few years. But it feels like, what a timely topic to take on in this moment.

[Stacey Abrams]

I wanted to talk about a topic where, on its face, the technology is neutral. And I wanted to write a book where the lines are blurred because sometimes there's good intention, just problematic execution. And I think AI is emblematic of that. In order to write my books, I do a lot of deep research. I did very deep dives. My approach whenever I write about a topic that's not my area of expertise, my mission is to sound smart enough about it in the book that the layperson believes me and the expert respects me. They know I'm like, they don't know I know they know I don't know everything, but they at least recognize that I tried really hard. And so I spent a lot of time doing deep dives. And the more I dove into the conversation of AI, I'd been fascinated about it because my niece was using it. My niece lived with me before she went off to college, and I was trying to understand how she was able to use AI and that that line between it being a helpful tool and it being cheating, you know, Faith was raised with a very Strong morality. And she knew that, you know, she wasn't going to be allowed to misuse it. And one day we had a conversation. I was like, talk to me about this. And that really became part of the spark for coded justice. This tool that we intend to use for good can be misapplied. And when you expand out what we have watched AI do, I want it to think about what happens when even the intentional pursuit of good can lead to challenges and murder.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yes, that's the thriller part of the book, because the characters are grappling with the hope and the promise of a future where AI could truly benefit us. I mean, the book is really wrapped around this technology that can help veterans in healthcare and then be a broader source for others as well. But the human beings ultimately get in the way. They make the decisions about whether it helps or harms us. Has breathing life into Avery at all help you work out any bigger issues or policies or ideas or steps for yourself?

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, writing her, researching her, first of all, is important to me. These are topics that matter. I care about public policy. It is, to me, one of the most important spaces that we have to grapple with, because politics is a tool for policy. But too often, we let our policy be a tool for our politics. My grounding is always to come back to what is it we're trying to do? And then how do our politics help us make that happen? Having grown up in communities where the policies have been antithetical to the needs of my community, I am always eager to understand the policies that can do the most harm or the most good if the people who are the least concerned or least considered are people of concern. And so in every single story, I try to incorporate my belief that I can't just think about this because it's exciting. I have to think about who could be helped or harmed, and that makes me better at the work that I do. And then third, democracy demands that you deliver. And this goes back again to the autocracy conversation. Part of what I've been able to do, especially through coded justice, is think about authoritarianism. I finished the book before the fall of democracy started in earnest. But what she explores in this book, they matter to me. Authoritarianism takes steps, and it starts with the curtailing of access to information, the marginalization of community. It happens when we give ourselves permission to quiet dissent and to not be frustrated by that. How we code our future, how AI determines access, that is a gateway to authoritarianism. It's why it was so critical in the Mega Bill that just passed. One of the few bright spots was that they stripped out the moratorium on AI regulation. You should always be concerned when so many powerful companies agree to to work together to stop anyone else from telling them how to do their jobs. Like anytime competitors are that unified, we should all be terrified. And it matters that they were saying, look, don't let any state regulate us. But they weren't at the same time saying, but here's the regulation that should happen at the federal level.

[Tanya Moseley]

Our guest today is Stacey Abrams. She's written a new novel called Coded Justice. We'll be back with more after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

[Capella University]

This message comes from Dell Technologies. The new Dell AI PC with Intel Core Ultra helps fast forward through busywork, leaving more time for you. Time. Get A new Dell AI PC starting at [e-mail] AI PC this message comes from BetterHelp.

[Amazon Healthcare]

Workplace stress can be difficult to manage and a holiday can help, but it isn't a long term solution. Therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. Take the steps to care for yourself and relieve stress with BetterHelp, the largest online therapy provider in the world. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Tanya Moseley]

All right, Stacy, let's get into politics. There are reports that you are weighing a third run for Georgia's governorship despite two tough defeats. Are you planning to run for office again?

[Stacey Abrams]

Politics is a tool and it's a very important one for getting good done. But it's not the only one. I am really focused right now on the other tools in my toolbox. That is not to say I won't run for office again, but my focus right now is on sharing information. I have Assembly Required, my podcast and Assembly Notes my substack. It's raising money for organizations and for candidates that I do believe right now are the right answers. It's doing the work of writing books like Coded justice and Stacey Speaks up so I can talk to kids. I'm not taking running for office off the table, but it's not right now.

[Tanya Moseley]

Top of mind, I think for many people when they hear right now Time is relative, you know, and as we are experiencing things changing in real time in profound ways that have all of our heads spread. When you say right now, I mean we understand literally right now, but is it something that you would consider in the future?

[Stacey Abrams]

I always will look at standing for public office as one of the most important tools I can use. Where I am, though, on the very specific question of 2026, is that I truly have not made any decisions. And that is in part because there's an urgency to 2025 that we cannot ignore. My focus right now is on how do we ensure that we have free and fair elections in 2026. There's a lot of hope being pinned on the 26 midterms. My concern is that the speed at which we are advancing through the 10 steps to autocracy, the fact that the city of Miami changed the dates of its elections, and I think in North Carolina there are some date changes. Those can seem incredibly benign and maybe, but I don't ignore harbingers. And so for me, the urgency of now is explicit and is truly requiring the focus that I have.

[Tanya Moseley]

We do know you because of your voter suppression work and all that you had done over the last few years. And as you mentioned, these elections will continue to happen until the end of the year and into the next year. How are you thinking about voter suppression and how should we be thinking about it?

[Stacey Abrams]

So step 10 in the 10 steps to autocracy focuses on not having free and fair elections. If you look at the raft of executive orders issued, there was one that was issued that essentially would block free and fair elections. It was a voter suppression edict, and it mimics behaviors that we have seen in Georgia, in Texas, in Ohio. It's responsive to what New Hampshire has done to students who are trying to vote, what Arizona attempted to do. Although we've got really great leadership in Arizona now, pushing back, voter suppression is all around us and what we have to reset our minds towards. This goes back to storytelling. Many of us grew up with the stories of the civil rights movement and voter suppression of the 60s. Guns and dogs and hoses. The voter suppression of the 21st century is administrative. It's refusing to allow the disabled to use mail in voting, making it more difficult, which is what they did. In Georgia, the state added additional layers. It's shutting down early voting opportunities, early voting matters, because in the 1960s, we didn't have on call scheduling. So you need to be able to vote on some day or time that is not Tuesday in November. It is making certain that students who need to prove their identities can use the one form of ID they have, which are their student IDs. But multiple states like Georgia and Florida and Texas have made that illegal. Voter suppression happens not in these grand, massive ways we're used to seeing. It happens in these insidious, administrative ways that can be justified on paper but can be villainous in reality. Voter suppression happens in three ways. It's can you register and stay on the rolls? If you make it hard to register or stay on the rolls, that is voter suppression. It's does the state allow you to cast your ballot? Well, if you can't get to a ballot box because they moved your polling place but they didn't provide public transportation, that's voter suppression. And does your vote get counted? Well, in Georgia, we had to have the state supreme court step in because they were changing the rules up to the last minute. Here in Georgia, in the 2024 election, the insidious nature of voter suppression often escapes recognition because it doesn't look like what we were used to.

[Tanya Moseley]

So, Stacy, you grew up in Mississippi and Georgia, and you mentioned to us that your mother called your family the Gentile poor. Your parents were also people of faith. They were ministers as well. And I just wonder how that factors into your worldview, your own sense of identity as it relates to your religion and your faith.

[Stacey Abrams]

One of the lessons I learned from my parents, my mom was a librarian, and my dad was a shipyard worker. They both were called into the ministry, and at the age of 40, they left their jobs and moved myself and my five brothers and sisters from Mississippi to Georgia so they could attend Emory University and do their Masters of Divinity. When we were growing up, my parents said you had three jobs. Go to church, go to school, take care of each other. And they didn't just tell us they lived those values. Watching your parents go back to school at the age of 40, your father, who is not the strongest reader, didn't like writing reports. I watched my dad struggle through graduate school because it was so important to him to serve his faith by getting the education necessary to teach his parishioners. My mom had a master's degree in library science already and in some ways was the opposite of my dad when it comes to her approach to school. But watching my mom, you know, come home, as my dad did, after a full day's work and a full day's lessons, and still help raise my siblings and myself like I watch my parents live those values, that education matters, that faith matters, and that helping people matter. And for me, those are the values that guide me, my faith, first and foremost. I cannot call myself a Christian and not believe that it is my responsibility to help the stranger, to help the immigrant, to help the dispossessed. I cannot say that my faith justifies the venom that has been turned against the LGBTQIA community, the way we have demonized the transgender community. I cannot be a woman of faith who has read the Bible and just conveniently pick the passages I like. I have to understand, and I learned that from my parents. But I also learned that education is part of my faith because I'm not expected to simply, blindly behave. The notion of free will exists because faith is when you have the information and you make the decision to do anyway, to do the things you need to do. And then ultimately, what ties it all together for me is the responsibility to serve others.

[Tanya Moseley]

You've been so open over the years, your love of Star Trek. Through your fiction, we're also able to get a glimpse into your creative mind. You've written about your financial struggles, your brother's incarceration. Politics, though, has a way sometimes of turning authenticity into a kind of performance, almost like creating a packaged version of ourselves. And I wonder how you think about that tension. Is it something that you wrestle with?

[Stacey Abrams]

The people in my world who have to navigate the world with me will tell you that I am not at all packaged. I defy my labeling way too often for their taste, but it's part of who I am. I think. It's hard to tell a story over and over again without there being lines that you understand in shorthand that you develop so people can grasp who you are. Performative happens when you start to believe the mythology versus the reality. I've met me, I'm not overly impressed, and I do not take myself so seriously. I make mistakes, I have malapropisms, and I make decisions that, in hindsight, probably should have done something else. I try my best, when that happens, to be honest with myself, to be honest with my teams, to be honest with the public. Part of what can sometimes seem performative is, I think, the unusual behavior that I have sometimes of taking public responsibility, because I don't think you can ask someone to trust you with their lives if they can't trust you with yours. And so I try to tell the truth now. I enjoy my privacy, and I will be as transparent as I can, but transparency doesn't give me either the obligation or, I think, the responsibility to not be contemplative and to not weigh and measure what has to happen. And so I think sometimes what people expect from politicians is sort of an instantaneous response, or what you expect from someone in the public eye is an instantaneous reaction. I don't do that. I think hard about what I say and what I do because people are affected by what I do their paychecks, their livelihoods, their voting rights. And so my obligation is to try to weigh the performance that's necessary for people to understand me versus the integrity and authenticity that makes me capable of doing the work.

[Tanya Moseley]

Stacy Abrams, thank you so much for this conversation.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you, Tonya, for having me and for some very thoughtful questions.

[Tanya Moseley]

Stacey Abrams, New thriller is called Code It Justice. Now, if it's nonfiction, you're after Our book critic Maureen Corrigan offers two titles she says are standouts.

[Maureen Corrigan]

I like the country, but I wouldn't want to live there. My husband and I are of one mind about that. Years ago, when we were house hunting, we opened the kitchen door of a little city row house and surveyed the not a grassy backyard, but a concrete slab that formed a grim little patio.

[Tanya Moseley]

No mowing.

[Maureen Corrigan]

My husband cried ecstatically. We bid on that house, still our home, the very next day. Clearly, I'm not the target audience for Helen Whybrow's memoir the Salt Stones, yet I was transported by it. With Whybrow, a former editor has lived for over 20 years with her family on Knoll Farm in Vermont. There she tends a flock of some 90 Icelandic sheep, known for their double ply coats and disinclination to docility. Wybrow's closely observed accounts of her working life as a shepherd are filled with muck, sweat and a hard won sense of the interconnectedness of the natural world. Here are snippets from an extended passage where Wybrow, along with her then 3 year old daughter Wren, released the sheep from their paddock to munch their way through a spring meadow. Even as she leads her sheep, Whybrow leads her readers into a deeper recognition of how the sublime and the sinister grow side by side. Our pant legs are drenched and heavy with dew. The sheep stream ahead of us, calling to each other in the yellow buttercups. We walk after them as if through a light filled doorway in a dream. Nearby, I show Wren the diminutive plant called Shepherd's purse with its tiny white flowers helpful for diarrhea. Next to it I spot one of those tiny, thick, thin skinned snails inside which is an invisible worm that can find its way into the brain of a sheep and drive it mad. Lobo the farm's guard llama, who protects the flock against predators like coyotes, will later be felled by one of those worms carried in those tiny gleaming golden snails in the grass. Deliverers of death Reading about Wybrow's life has made me more aware of the teeming environment above and below that backyard concrete slab that I normally don't notice. A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst is a true story that's part extreme adventure tale, part meditation on the mystery of a loving partnership. Morris and Marilyn Bailey were a lower middle class English couple bored with their lives in the early 1970s. Marilyn, the go getter of the two, decided they should sell their suburban bungalow, buy a boat and sail round the world. In June 1972, the couple set off on a 31 foot wooden sloop called the Orelin. A year later, in the middle of the Pacific, a whale breached out of the briny deep and knocked a hole in the Orelin. It sank within minutes. Marilyn, who couldn't swim, and Morris spent four months adrift on a rubber raft. They survived barely by catching and eating raw fish and birds, sucking water out of turtles eyeballs and, in depressive Morris case, fighting the temptation to tip himself overboard. Elmhurst, who writes for the Guardian and the New Yorker, knows how to tell a perfect storm of a story, relying in part on Marilyn's diary. Here, for instance, is the day when the pair woke to find themselves sunk in a hollow in the middle of the raft. The bottom of the rubber raft had been pierced by the spines of tiny fish and needed patching afterwards. To stay afloat, the couple had to pump two or three times an hour. Elmhurst then uses poetic license to enter into Morris's thoughts. Now and then in brighter moments, Morris liked to entertain the idea that they had become at one with the Pacific. But times like this expose the absurdity of such a view. Boats, like humans, are in a state of permanent decline. Every time a boat touches the water, it degrades. They were not meant to be here. I'm only skimming the surface of the existential depths of a marriage at sea. This is a tale that makes you understand the lure of the open water and why it's best, perhaps, that most of us resist it.

[Tanya Moseley]

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed the Salt Stones and A Marriage at Sea. Coming up, Grammy winning musician and producer Rafael Siddiq. He's known for his work as a member of Tony, Tony, Tony and as a solo artist. He's helped define the sound of modern R and b in Seoul. Tonya I'm Tanya Moseley and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

[Amazon Healthcare]

This message comes from Moises, proud supporter of NPR Music and the 2025 Tiny Desk Giveaway. Win a trip for two to see a Tiny Desk concert live at NPR's headquarters. Enter for free by September 12th and boost your odds by donating to the NPR Network and follow where the music takes you with Moises, your AI powered studio created by Musicians for Musicians. Learn more at Moises AI. No purchase or donation required for entry. Must be 18 years or older to enter. Links to the entry page and official rules can be [e-mail] tinydeskgiveaway. Support for fresh air comes from WHYY travel can do amazing things Broaden people's horizons, create new relationships and restore the soul. But for the people who live in these destinations, it often comes at a cost. Peak Travel, a podcast from whyy circles the globe to understand the impact of tourism. Whether boarding a cruise in Alaska or touring ancient caves in Petra, hear how the tourism industry shapes communities and hotspots around the world. Find Peak Travel wherever you get your podcasts.

[Capella University]

This message comes from Ritual what makes Ritual Vitamins different? Ritual Vitamins are made with bioavailable, clinically studied key ingredients and a patented nutrient delivery system that aims to help your body use the nutrients you're getting. Ritual's Essential multivitamins are made with you and your body in mind and backed by scientific research, filled with key ingredients as well as the essence of mint so you can enjoy taking your vitamins. Get 25% off your first purchase when you visit ritual.com NPR My next guest.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is Raphael Siddiq, a Grammy winning and Oscar nominated singer, songwriter, multi instrumentalist and producer. He just announced an extended national tour of his one man show no Bandwidth. One Man, One Night. Three decades of hits. It started at the Apollo Theater in Harlem with sold out performances in Los Angeles and Oakland and now extends through the fall. With nothing more than a mic, a few instruments and his stories, Siddiq instructed that everyone in the audience lock their phones away as he revisited the highlights, heartbreaks and hits that have shaped his music career. From his early days with Tony Tony Tony to his work with Lucy Pearl and through solo albums like Instant Vintage and Jimmy Lee. Here's a cut from his 2002 autobiographical hit Still Ray I'm coming home to.

[Raphael Siddiq]

You Wear something see through so I can see your heart for night can never come soon enough for me I watch the sky all day Night is where I find you and me so much my Days are filled with grief. That's why I say truly give you what you need because you love me for me.

[Tanya Moseley]

Raphael Siddiq has also built a career writing and collaborating with some of the biggest names in music, including Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Stevie Wonder, Solange d', Angelo, Earth, Wind and Fire, and Erykah Badu. Most recently, he co wrote the song I Lied to youo for Ryan Coogler's film Sinners, a a gospel blues ballot that served as the emotional centerpiece of the film, inspired by his own church roots and gospel upbringing. Rafael Siddiq, welcome to FRESH air.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you. Good to be here.

[Tanya Moseley]

No phones. A one man show.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah.

[Tanya Moseley]

Several hours just you locked into the audience. Why did you want the audience to put away their phones?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Taking the phones away just made it so I can give people the same opportunity that I had as a young, as a shorty going to the Oakland Coliseum and watching the ojs. I mean, I could see them walking up the stairs. I could see the lights on their shoes. I could see the lights on the amps. I paid attention to so much detail. Now when you, when you have phones in front of you, it's just sort of you see people stiff and nobody's moving in the crowd.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yes.

[Raphael Siddiq]

It look, look like it's robots, not really real people. So when there's no phones, you know, I don't know. I don't, I just, I like it. The testimonies, I heard people say, well, they got a chance to hug, kiss, dance with each other and things that they don't do. Like it was, you know, see Earth, Wind and Fire at the show. You're singing, you know, you got your fist pumping, you dancing, you have your hands are free. Trying to get people a free moment. Hope they enjoyed it.

[Tanya Moseley]

When did you find your voice? When did you know that you could sing?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I found my voice probably at Union Baptist, this church on 71st Avenue in Oakland, California. I was asked to sing a song with all the tiny tots. Had to sing a song on Easter Sunday. And this lady named call her Sister Nation, she was the pastor's wife. She handed me a piece of paper and said, you're singing this song on Sunday. We got a chance to rehearse it one time and then on Sunday you're.

[Tanya Moseley]

Singing how old were you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I don't know, seven?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

And I was singing the song and people started responding when I was singing song was embarrassing that the words. It was his gospel song. It was like, you know, if I was naked without bread or meat and my friends Was like in the audience, crying, laughing. But when I sang it at church, people responded like, oh, go. And I heard it, but it. It more or less made me more nervous, you know, because they kept responding like I was doing a good job. And then I didn't do it anymore. I didn't do it anymore until I played in some local bands and I was playing cover songs. I would sing this song by Mr. Mr. Called Broken Wings. I sang that, like in the 12th grade, playing bass and singing. I'd sing the single Life by Cameo. Those were the next songs I sang. And then pretty much I didn't like being a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy.

[Tanya Moseley]

You didn't?

[Raphael Siddiq]

No. I was playing in a band where there was two other lead singers and I would. Those are just two songs that I sang in the band. And when the Tony started, ended up singing Lil Walter. And the producers, Danny and Tommy thought that I should sing more songs. And that's how I became a front guy.

[Tanya Moseley]

You've always gravitated to music of previous generations. You're like an old soul, like in modern packaging. What is it about that older music that you feel like is just always.

[Raphael Siddiq]

You've tapped into it has a feeling. It has a feeling. And the late, great Isaac Hayes told me there's no such thing of old school. It's either you've been to school or you didn't.

[Tanya Moseley]

Right.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I was schooled. Music, the feeling of music doesn't change. So you want to get the feeling from way, way back. And you want to take that feeling and inject it to something new. I didn't know that I was doing that. It's just something that I got turned out on when I was a kid. It's whatever you get turned out by when you're young is what you end up being, you know.

[Tanya Moseley]

What do you love about the bass in particular?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Bass made me feel big. I was so little, you know, probably 99 pounds when I was that age. Bass has had this big sound. I heard it on Motown Records like Pride and Joy by Marvin Gaye. And I didn't know what I was hearing. And later on I would find out I was listening to one of the greatest bass players of all times. All times. Who was it? James Jamerson.

[Tanya Moseley]

Mm mm. I want to ask you about a project that you just got done completing that we've all experienced sinners. What a movie. And you co wrote the film's signature song, I Lied to youo, with Ludwig Goranson. It's performed by Miles Canton, he's got, like this deep, resonant voice that feels like it's come from another time. He's so young, but he's got, like this really rich voice. And that song that you co wrote, it really serves as this emotional centerpiece for the film. It's a pivotal moment. First off, I want to know, how did that opportunity come your way?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, Ryan Coogler is from Oakland. I'm a huge fan of, you know, of the person that guy is. And then when this opportunity came, he called me and told me about it and told me what he was thinking about, gave me a synopsis of the film. And it was about blues and right up my alley. You know, it's my background too. And they were about to leave the New Orleans to shoot it, and they gave me the story, and I'm thinking, when do you want it done? And they was like, can we do it now? So I just started playing the guitar lick and I just wrote the lyrics right there.

[Tanya Moseley]

Let's listen to a little bit of it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Something I been wanting to tell you for a long time it might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind. Well, I was just a boy about 8 years old. You threw me a Bible on that Mississippi road. See, I love you, papa, you did all you could do. And they say the truth hurts, so I lied to you. Yes, I lied to you. I love the cougars.

[Tanya Moseley]

That was the song I Lied to youo from the movie Sinners, which my guest today, Raphael Sadiq co wrote. Tell me about that line. They say the truth hurts, so I lied to you. You wrote that, right?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, I did, yeah.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, tell me about that line.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, that's a little mischievous boy line. You know, I should. I should think about if you lied to your girlfriend. And it's like you like. Well, they say the truth hurts, so I lied to you. I didn't want to hurt you, so I just lied. I've always had that in my head, that concept of a song.

[Tanya Moseley]

Why? Why do you think?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, because I thought it would always be a great blues song to take that big voice of. Miles. Yeah, Miles sounds like he's 60, right?

[Tanya Moseley]

I know.

[Raphael Siddiq]

He's young dude, like 19 or something, right? So once Ryan told me about the movie, sort of changed the words around from what I thought I could say. Because now I'm thinking about a pastor, a father.

[Tanya Moseley]

Right. Because in the storyline, it is Miles talking to his father, who's a pastor. Right.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Not telling the truth, but he loves his dad. But he loves music. Yep. Doesn't want to hurt his dad to say, I want to go play in this club. Cause I still love the Lord. I still love church. But, Dad, I gotta go.

[Tanya Moseley]

Hmm.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Maybe I'll make it back.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is it true? I heard this. I don't know if it's true, but that you love soundtracks and scoring. Like, you'll be at home watching a movie or a show, and then just start for yourself to think about a soundtrack or a song that be like, the score.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah. If I'm watching a movie, I'll just turn it. The volume completely down, and I'll start scoring. I started seeing what I would do versus what they're doing. That's how I kind of learned.

[Tanya Moseley]

I want to talk to you just a little bit about your process in writing songs for other people, too. Beyonce's album Cowboy Carter won best country album and album of the year at the Grammys. And you produced and wrote two of the songs, 16 carriages and bodyguard. Congratulations.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you. You know, working with Ms. Beyonce, I know what hard work is, and I respect people that work hard. You don't even have to be around them to know. You could just look at the production amount of work they put into a show or when they come out with music or whatever. But being in the room and working with people, you really get to see how hard they work.

[Tanya Moseley]

I've heard you say you don't remember the experience, but one thing you do remember is that you guys had a lot of fun.

[Raphael Siddiq]

The good time is you're around a lot of great people, a lot of great thinkers. Everybody's a thinker in the room. It's sort of like I'm. I was at my studio for a lot of it on my own, but sometime I went to the studio where it was like five or six rooms and different people working in different studios, and you can go grab, you know, the dream out of a room, which is an amazing songwriter, producer. Any musician is on Uncalled. I would just dream up, like, call this guy, call this guy. And that's. That's how Quincy Jones would do it. You got to be able to make. Have that book, that black book, to call the right musicians. And that's why music suffers. To me now, you're not making a phone call, so everything sound the same. You're not giving different energy, different spirits, different personalities. On music, you need different personalities. It's not about you. It's about everybody else. And then you. That's what made great records, and that's what the fun thing about Beyonce's record.

[Tanya Moseley]

Was this particular song, Bodyguard, though you presented that to Beyonce, but that wasn't necessarily the song she can choose. And she chose that of yours.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, that song. I was going through my Dropbox and I was playing songs in a room with her. She was in a room. Jay Z was in the room. Jay and a few. Some of the staff. And I was looking for a song. I don't think the phone was even hooked up to the speakers. And I played and I stopped it real quick because that's not the song I wanted to play. And I didn't think it was something she even like. But she caught it in like two seconds. She goes, what? What's that? And I'm going, oh, that's just this idea that I had. And I played it and she liked. She's like, what are you doing with it? And that's how it got on the record.

[Tanya Moseley]

I want to play a little bit of Bodyguard. And it actually is at the point where there's like this solo guitar. Let's listen.

[Raphael Siddiq]

God, let me be our life God, would you let me ride. Sh sh.

[Tanya Moseley]

That was Beyonce singing her award winning song, Bodyguard, written by my guest today, Raphael Siddiq. That guitar at the end, that was also not planned. Right. Is that you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, that's me. Yeah. She wanted a solo. Bea wanted a solo and I did a solo. And she was like, can we make it longer? You never hear that from an artist in 2025 playing a guitar solo. They want it longer. But she knows her audience and she knows that is rare. And she's. I think we could do that. We can, we can. We can have a 16 bar solo on this record. So that was a little bit of pressure to go back in there and play like a 16 bar solo.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Because I would have called my boy. I would have called Eric Gales.

[Tanya Moseley]

Who is Eric Gales?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Eric Gales is one of the most amazing guitar players in the world today. He's from Memphis Delta Blues. He was the guy that's playing. He played a lot of guitar and centers. But I would have called him to play, but he was on tour, so I had to play it and it came out good.

[Tanya Moseley]

I love how I had to play it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Had to play it. I like spreading it around.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yep. I think that, like something about that, about Beyonce choosing that song where you mistakenly played it, but then you're like, oh. And she says, no, what is that? I've heard you say both she and Solange because you wrote Cranes in the sky for a seat at the table. Her album that they make choices like that. It's sort of like the mark of a great musician is to go outside the box, the places that aren't safe. It just made me very interested to know more about how you write these songs. Many times they're for yourself. And then many years later you might present them to an artist like Beyonce or Solange, you can tell about just how brave they are and how far they're going to go with it based on the choices they make. On your.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I don't know. I guess it's in the water in Houston, that family, both of them are like, really particular about what they like as far as design, style, you know, staging and, you know, what you can pull off. And it's not a lot of artists that take those chances. They take chances. And music is about taking chances, taking risks lasting longer than your teacher or your executives or labels or anything like that. You know, for me, it's like, what chance are you going to take? If you're, if you, if you're playing music, you have to be, you have to dare to suck. And a lot of people don't, don't do that. I don't, I don't fault people that don't do that. But when you run into people that do, you have to know like, I'm gonna try myself. I'm gonna try to not be different. I'm gonna try to do something that I like first and second. Secondly, I hope it's the audience that likes it also. But first I have to like it.

[Tanya Moseley]

Have you always been like that for yourself as an artist? Dare to suck.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I've always been like that. I didn't know what I was doing, so I had to find the words later on through different people. You know, dare to suck came from this acting coach that I was working with one time and she's like, you gotta dare to suck. And I'm like, wow, that's a, that's pretty good. Because I did suck at acting. So it was like, so that's a good point. I just took that and ran with that. Then I realized in music I did that a lot because, you know, you're not, you're not always going to be good.

[Tanya Moseley]

Well, Raphael Sadiq, this has been such a pleasure.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you.

[Tanya Moseley]

Raphael Siddiq is a Grammy award winning musician and producer. His one man show no bandwidth. One man, One night. Three decades of hits will continue touring the country this fall. FRESH Air weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annmarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley.

[Amazon Healthcare]

This message comes from Bombas. Nearly 30% of marathoners end their race blistered. Bombus running socks are strategically cushioned to help. Say bye to blisters. Run to bombus.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase.

[Capella University]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori. Featuring the core short receive 20% off your first purchase on any U.S. orders over $75 and free [e-mail] NPR exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Eduardo.