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- [00:00]
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This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com Commercial Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.
- [00:19]
Terry Gross
I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums. He produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18. Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular, they're a phenomenon. Their album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories best record, Album, Song and new Artist all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for producer of the year non classical. Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film no Time to Die and another for what Was I Made for from the Barbie movie. She collaborated on both songs with Phineas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year. Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for seven Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Vinneas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released called For Crying Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and The Press. In 2019, music critic John Pereilles wrote in the New York times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death, haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice. Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is l'amour de ma Vie, which is French for the love of my life.
- [02:19]
Billie Eilish
I wish you the best for the rest of your life. Felt sorry for you when I looked in your eyes But I need to confess I told you a lie I said you, you were the love of my life the love of my life Did I break your heart? Did I waste your time? I tried to be there for you Then you tried to break mine it isn't asking for a lot for an apology for making me Feel I could kill you if I tried to leave. You said you'd never fall in love again because of me. Then you moved on immediately.
- [03:43]
Terry Gross
I'm your one Billie Eilish. Phineas O'Connell, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy. It strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?
- [03:59]
Phineas O'Connell
Well, you know, we started making music when I was about 13, and as most 13 year olds, I had not, you know, grown into my body and my voice and all the things that you age into as a human. And I always, you know, it's funny, like, when things like that happen at a young age, you kind of have this idea that that's how things are gonna be forever. And so in my mind, at my voice was going to sound like it did then forever. I thought it was going to be soft and my range wasn't going to be very big and I wasn't ever going to be able to belt and I wasn't ever going to be able to, you know, have much of a chest mix in my voice. And, you know, I spent many years touring and singing and doing shows and my voice matured and started to change. And in the making of hit me hard and soft. I started working with a singing teacher, which I hadn't done since I was a kid in my choir. And I kind of always, like, felt hesitant to and kind of embarrassed to somehow. And it completely has just honestly changed my life. And I mean, I've just, my voice has just gotten, you know, 10 times better in the last two years. And what's amazing is it's just going to keep getting better.
- [05:21]
Terry Gross
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like, that's the way your voice.
- [05:27]
Phineas O'Connell
No, that's just how I sang. That's what's funny about it. I just, you know, I was like, I couldn't really do much else. Like, I didn't have the range, I didn't have the strength in my vocal cords and my breathing, you know, and think about, you know, how your voice sounded when you were a kid. Opposed to now. It's a completely different thing.
- [05:45]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And Phineas, I assume you do the arrangements.
- [05:48]
Phineas O'Connell
Yeah. Like the production and the instrumental arrangement. I would say that I do plenty of it. But Billie is deeply involved and I would say that as time has gone on, Billie has become kind of more knowledgeable and articulate about what she likes and what she doesn't. In instrumental arrangement and production and vocal arrangement. So we're either brainstorming stuff together or at the very least, she's reacting to what I do in a kind of a. I like that. Go further. I'm not crazy about that. Take that out kind of a sense, if that makes sense.
- [06:25]
Terry Gross
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much. And it's called the Diner. So, Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
- [06:40]
Phineas O'Connell
The Diner is a slight anomaly in terms of the way that Billy and I most commonly work. I would say the way that we most commonly work is I sit down with a guitar or I sit down at a piano and I play chords and Billy sings melodies and we come up with lyrics and melodies together over top of chords. In the case of the Diner, on my own, I had made the what became sort of most of the instrumental of the Diner. I'd been sitting around one day playing that sort of sampled re articulated horn thing. You take kind of a one track of a horn being played and then you load it onto a keyboard and the horn is then chromatic on the keyboard and you play the bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. That's me playing piano, but through a horn sample. And then I programmed drum samples and then bass samples, or I guess not bass samples, but bass synthesizers over top of that. And I presented it to Billy and then she riffed, you know, these super menacing cool lyrics over top of it.
- [07:51]
Terry Gross
So let's hear the Diner.
- [07:56]
Billie Eilish
Don't be afraid of me I watch your dream I saw you on the screen I know I want to be your star is in my dreams and like I say I can res.
- [08:19]
Phineas O'Connell
I'm.
- [08:19]
Billie Eilish
Here around the clock I'm waiting on your block but please I'm told the cops they'll make me stop and I just want to talk I could change you could be my wife I came into the kitchen looking for something to eat I like to call the car so there would know that.
- [09:07]
Terry Gross
That was the Diner from the new Billie Eilish album. Hit me hard and soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Finneas. Finneas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?
- [09:30]
Phineas O'Connell
Well, I think if I go back to the kind of genesis of this. First of all, we lived together. We both lived at home with our parents when we Started making music. I was 18 and Billy was 13. And over the ensuing, you know, years, even after I moved out into my own place as a 21 year old, we still made most of the music in the bedroom in my childhood home. And as time went on and Billie's tour became a more and more heavy lift, she started to need to be more kind of diligent about how much vocal rest and physical rest she was getting on the road, which meant that we were making less music on the road. And the sort of turn of the tide there was that we would come off the road and had made nothing new, and then we'd kind of have a detox at home where we would have just spent every day together for several months and we'd kind of chill out and then we'd sort of reconvene and start making new music and then we'd go back out on the road. And so it just became a kind of a version of like, wow, this is going to dominate every minute of my life. And I feel that I'm really not the best pianist, guitarist, backup singer, accompanist for Billie. You know, that's not the thing. That is my sort of special skill there. My special skill is being able to write and record songs with her. And so if I am picking between the two and I have other stuff on my plate, I'll pick making the album every time.
- [11:07]
Terry Gross
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these, like, teenage teenagers, especially teenage girls, as, like, such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners kind of idolizing you? And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been. Well, maybe was a little disorienting, definitely.
- [11:55]
Phineas O'Connell
I think, though, honestly, even though it was a lot for a young brain and body to deal with, in a way, the fact that I was a teenager and they were also teenagers somehow felt less kind of. I don't know, I felt. I think I just felt so connected to them because we were all the same age. And I, you know, I think it can be really hard when you're an adult and you have fans that are children to you or, you know, way older than you. Like, I think that it. I think that something about us all kind of feeling like we were growing up together was like Honestly, comforting to me. And also, I didn't really have many friends for a couple of years.
- [12:54]
Terry Gross
And, well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or, you know, in the classrooms with your peers.
- [13:03]
Phineas O'Connell
Well, so this is what's interesting is we were homeschooled. We didn't go to school. But Phineas and I both had so many friends growing up, and we did so many things, and there was no shortage of friends. There was no shortage of activities and, you know, things to do, which I think can be surprising for people to hear because they kind of think like, well, then how did you meet them? And, you know, we had all sorts of things. We did. I was part of a choir, and I was in a dance company, and I. We did aerial arts, and I rode horses, and I did gymnastics, and I acted, and Phineas acted, and I was in a. You know, there were so many things that. That were social for us. And honestly, when I became famous, ish. At 14, it was not a good time in terms of, like, keeping friendships. I think when you're 14, that's kind of an age where friendships are already kind of rocky. And also, all my friends did go to school, so, like, they were all going to high school. And. And suddenly I had no way of relating to anyone, and I kind of lost all my friends, and I maintained a couple, but those were really challenging to keep, even still. And so for those few years of becoming this, like, enormous superstar, I was kind of feeling like, wait, what the hell is the point? I don't have any friends, and I don't have. Like, I'm losing all the things that I love so deeply and all the people that I love. And so, in a way, the fans kind of saved me in that way because they were my age, and I felt like they were the only kind of friends I had for a while.
- [14:55]
Terry Gross
Phineas, what's it been like for you? Especially, you know, early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens, what was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls? When you're a guy and you're also older, you know you're four or five years older than Billy.
- [15:17]
Phineas O'Connell
Yeah, I'm four years older. So I would say that I didn't have much of a kind of a feeling one way or the other about the age or gender of the predominant audience. I had a real sense of gratitude for their enthusiasm and, you know, the audience that was coming to the shows that Billy was playing couldn't have been more engaged and enthusiastic.
- [15:45]
Terry Gross
Billy, I've read that some girls or, you know, young women in the audience are throwing their bras on to the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started?
- [15:58]
Phineas O'Connell
I mean, that's like a classic.
- [16:00]
Terry Gross
Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know.
- [16:05]
Phineas O'Connell
Right. Well, it's funny, like, I always envied that. I remember, like, watching, you know, videos of men performing, whoever they may be, and, you know, people throwing bras and underwear and, you know, and I always thought, like, that's so awesome. So it's so sick, so powerful. I always was just jealous of that. And I remember when I was first doing shows, you know, fans throw all sorts of things on stage. They throw gifts and presents and different flags of different kinds. And honestly, like, right away, people started throwing bras when we were all me and the audience 16. And I loved it. I really did. You know, I had. I spent many years having a lot of not gender dysphoria about my own gender, but I think a lot of women go through the feeling of just envying men in any kind of way, one way or the other. And for me, I would watch videos of different male performers on stage and just feel this deep sadness in my body that I'll never be able to, you know, take my shirt off on stage and run around and, like, not try very hard and, like, you know, just jump around on stage and that's enough. And, you know, have enough energy from just myself with no backup dancers and no, you know, huge stage production, and the crowd will still love me. And that's just like, only a man can do that. And because of that, I think more than almost anything else in my career, I was very, very, very determined to kind of prove that thought wrong. And I really did. I really feel like I did. I didn't like the kind of pop girl, leotard, you know, backup dancers, hair done thing. I didn't like that for me. I liked it for other people, but that didn't resonate with me. I never saw myself in those people. And honestly, I never saw myself in any women that I saw on stage, but I did see myself in the men that I saw on stage. And I thought that was unfair. And so I did everything that I could to kind of try to break that within myself and the industry.
- [18:33]
Terry Gross
But, you know, on a related note, you often dress, you know, on videos and in performance, on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, like, since you grew up with a lot of hip hop, you know, in a lot of hip hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, or dressed in like really tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing like baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?
- [19:15]
Phineas O'Connell
Yes, exactly correct. I would watch those videos and instead of being jealous of the women who get to be around the hot men, I would be jealous of the hot men. And I wanted to be them and I wanted to dress like them and I wanted to, you know, be able to act like them. And to be fair, I had all sorts of women that I looked up to and artists that I, you know, are the reason that I am who I am. And also, I wouldn't have been able, even if I felt the way I did, I wouldn't have been able to achieve it had it not been for the incredibly powerful, strong willed women artists and people in the public eye that came before me that made it possible for me. So, like, my favorite singers are all kind of old jazz singers that I've always looked up to. And I'm always forcing people to watch videos of Ella Fitzgerald singing live and Julie London singing live and, you know, Sarah Vaughan and Nancy Wilson and all these people. We were watching these videos and every single one, of course, because of that period of time. They're all wearing dresses. They're all wearing tight, you know, corseted, maybe dresses with their hair done. But like, they didn't, they couldn't, they couldn't just not do that. You know, that's part of how things were then. And so thank God that those women came before me because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do anything.
- [20:41]
Terry Gross
My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is nominated for seven Grammys. His new solo album is called For Crying Out Loud. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.
- [20:56]
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- [21:48]
Phineas O'Connell
This is Eric Glass on this American life.
- [21:50]
We like stories that surprise you.
- [21:52]
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For instance, imagine finding a new hobby.
- [21:54]
Phineas O'Connell
Realizing to do this hobby right according to the ways of the masters, there's a pretty good chance that you're going to have to bend the law to get the materials that you need, if not break it. Yeah. To break international laws.
- [22:08]
Terry Gross
Your life stories, really good ones.
- [22:10]
Phineas O'Connell
This American Life.
- [22:12]
Tonya Mosley
Hi, it's Tonya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our FRESH AIR team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St. Vincent Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten and so many others, people you know well and hopefully new people you learned about. For the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining npr. NPR has grown a lot this year and we want to say thank you. An extra special thank you to those supporters. You know who you are and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public and get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor free listings, listening weekly, bonus episodes from our FRESH AIR archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives. Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org Thanks.
- [23:51]
Terry Gross
I want to play Ocean Eyes, which is the first thing that you recorded together. You put it on SoundCloud. It went viral for reasons I don't understand how things by people unknown go viral, but it did.
- [24:02]
Phineas O'Connell
And that, to be honest with you, Terry, I also don't understand how I don't understand.
- [24:07]
Terry Gross
Good. Thank you for the validation. So I want to play that song. Because, Billy, you were talking earlier about how when you started recording, when you were 13, you were much younger, your voice was different. But, Phineas, I want to ask you first. I think not many teenage boys would think, like, oh, I want to hang out and write songs with and record with my younger sister who's 13. What made you think, oh, Billy has to sing this? Because I know initially you were going to write it for your band.
- [24:39]
Phineas O'Connell
Well, I think, you know, the three layered answer to that is, Billy and I have always gotten along great and really liked spending time together. I'm sure being homeschooled impacted that because we had a relationship that might have been more three dimensional than if we were in separate grades and saw each other a little bit on the weekend and saw each other a little bit while we did our homework or something. We spent a lot of time together having nuanced conversations. That's number one in terms of wanting to spend time with her. Number two is she had a really beautiful voice. And so I think even in addition to liking her as a presence in my life, I saw her talent and respected her talent. And then the third one is I needed a guinea pig, you know, the third one is I was, you know, an amateur producer trying my best to record anyone. And so, you know, Billy, as a 13 year old who'd basically never sung into a microphone at all, you know, obliged, and it was kind of a good match. The kind of backstory is, you know, I was in this band. I loved music from the time I was, you know, born and then wanted to be a musician professionally from the time I was about 12 and played in bands all through high school. And sort of as I started to learn more about how to produce, I got more interested in pop music and alternative music. And I had this friend who knew that I was, like, in a band. And he was like, hey, you produce, right? His name was Frank. He was like, you produce, right? And I kind of was like, I mean, not very well. I was able to see that I was pretty lackluster. And he was like, great, I'm sure you're gonna be great. I need you to produce some songs I'm gonna do. And he was also very green, but he just gassed me up. He just believed that I was more talented than I was and I'd play something and he'd be like, that's incredible, bro. And that really gave me all this confidence that I would never have otherwise had. And, you know, Billie, too, I was making music with Billie in my bedroom and being, you know, trying my best. And she was kind about it. She was like, oh, I like that she liked Ocean Eyes. You know, I think that I got so much positive reinforcement when I really needed it. When I find out people have had careers in the arts when they were actively discouraged. You know, when you hear somebody say, oh, man, my mom hated my voice, I'm always kind of blown away because to me, I had enough self doubt and enough, you know, imposter syndrome that if anyone had said, you're not very good, I would have been like, correct. I agree. You know, let me stop doing this now. And it really took people like Billy and people like my friend Frank to be like, no, no, no, you're better than you think you are. To kind of give me the confidence that I needed.
- [27:31]
Terry Gross
Okay, so let's listen to Ocean Eyes as recorded by the 13 year old Billie Eilish. And the 17 or 18 I was 18. 18 year old Phineas. So here it is.
- [27:54]
Billie Eilish
I've been watching you for some time can't stop staring at those ocean eyes Burning cities and napalm skies 15 flares inside those ocean eyes your ocean isles fly when you give me those ocean eyes I'm scared never falling near Ocean eyes those ocean eyes I've been walking through.
- [28:58]
Terry Gross
That was Ocean Eyes, the first song that Billie, Eilish and Finneas recorded together. A song written by Phineas recorded at home that went viral and really launched their careers. Your mother, when she was homeschooling, you gave you classes on songwriting. Are there insights that she gave you both that stuck with you?
- [29:22]
Phineas O'Connell
Yeah. I mean, honestly, there was one thing that really helped me, which was our mom had us like go home and like watch something on TV or read something and just write down any interesting words that we see or like an interesting sentence and then kind of taking whatever you wrote and just try to make a song out of what you wrote or make a song about the thing that you thought was cool or about this one word or, you know, at least incorporating this one word into a song you already wrote. Just like new ways of kind of taking pressure off of yourself a little. Like, that really helped me because songwriting always felt like a lot of pressure on me in myself alone. And I think that I don't know if Phineas would agree, but, like, something that I think has always helped in songwriting is giving yourself permission to write a bad song. I think that sometimes you have this high expectation for yourself and you're like, no, no, no, it has to be really good. But you can't just sit down and make something perfect immediately every time you have to try and fail. And that was something that was really hard for me. I'm not good at patience, and I'm not good at not being good at something until I am. I want to be really good immediately. And I think it's just something that helped me a lot, is just allowing myself to not be amazing and just make something, to make it and not worry if it's good.
- [30:52]
Terry Gross
If you're just joining us, my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, and their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [31:04]
Phineas O'Connell
Ho, ho, ho. Santa here coming to you from the North Pole, where the elves in our podcast division have just completed work on this season's best best gift for public radio lovers, npr. Plus, give the gift of sponsored free listening and even bonus episodes from your favorite NPR podcasts, all while supporting public media. Learn more at plus.NPR.org how much can one person change in four years? The answer comes down to who he puts in charge. Trump's Terms is a podcast where you can follow NPR's coverage of the people.
- [31:37]
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Who will shape Donald Trump's first hundred.
- [31:39]
Phineas O'Connell
Days in office and what their goals are.
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We will track his cabinet picks, his.
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Phineas O'Connell
Political team, his top military leaders to understand who they are, what they believe and how they'll govern. Listen to Trump's terms from NPR.
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- [32:05]
Tonya Mosley
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- [32:07]
Phineas O'Connell
Join the NPR Politics Podcast every single afternoon to understand the world through political eyes.
- [32:15]
Terry Gross
I want to play another song from your new album, hit Me Hard and Soft. And this song is called Skinny and Billy. It's talking about how people think you look happy because you're skinny. You know that you lost weight, but you write but I still cry. Did losing weight make a difference in your life? And do you, like, bounce back and forth? Because that's something so many people in your audience would relate to.
- [32:41]
Phineas O'Connell
Yeah. You know, I, like everyone and every woman, suffer with a lot of body image issues and just hatred and dysmorphia. And I always have since I was a kid. And I still have that girl in me. And, you know, I've had a lot of as a human does, getting thinner and then getting bigger and then getting fit and then getting not as fit. Like, your body changes over time, especially depending on, like, how you're living your life. And a couple years back, when we were making this album, I had been on this, like, really intense kind of health journey, and I had lost a lot of weight, and I'd gotten so strong, and I was, like, thinner than I'd ever been and stronger than I'd ever been. But separately, I was, like, extremely unhappy and unaware of how unhappy I was until I was happy again, kind of thing.
- [33:48]
Terry Gross
Were you unhappy because you weren't eating enough?
- [33:50]
Phineas O'Connell
No. Honestly, my fitness journey was, like, the thing that I held on to that I was the most proud of. But what was really interesting was I felt really proud of my body and how. How hard I'd worked. I mean, I was working out, like, two hours, like five or six days a week, and, you know, wasn't eating gluten and dairy and sugar and past 7:00pm and, you know, not a fun way to live at all. But it was something that, you know, I'm a. I'm an addictive person, and that was something that I got very addicted to, and I loved that experience.
- [34:27]
Terry Gross
But you were sad.
- [34:29]
Phineas O'Connell
Yeah. I didn't have much else to hold on to, and I really had that. I had this kind of journey of my strength, kind of. And within that period of time, I would be on tour and I would come back. And I remember, like, every single person that I would see that I hadn't seen in many weeks would be like, oh, my God, you look amazing. You look so skinny. Wow, you look so happy. You look so healthy. Wow, Billy, you just look like you're just glowing, like you're just so happy. And it's just so nice to see her so happy. And, yeah, she's just doing so great. And it was really interesting because I got obsessed with that validation, and I loved it. I loved every single thing that everybody said to me. But then I kind of started to think, like, that's really interesting, because I'm not happy at all, but I definitely am skinny.
- [35:22]
But I also like the body equivalent of, like, you know, money doesn't buy you happiness or something where you're, like, looking the way I thought I wanted to look. Doesn't make me happy either.
- [35:32]
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, skinny was a song that we wrote out of a really, really, like, uninspired period of time that we had not created anything in and, like, had no ideas for anything. And it was just kind of a depressing period of time. And we were sitting in A studio. And we wanted to write something. I really wanted to write something and couldn't come up with anything. And Finney started playing chords and I started riffing on melodies and the lyrics came about because Phineas could see how I was feeling and kind of, you know, starts asking me questions and I start talking about how I feel and the things I've been going through. And he's just so good at seeing me like nobody else does and, like, I don't even. And being able to put it into words in a way that, you know, I didn't even realize I was feeling, you know? And like, he said that lyrics. People say I look happy just because I got skinny, but the old me is still me and maybe the real me. And I think she's pretty. And that was his lyric. And it's funny that he wrote that because it's me, it's how I felt. But it's just the magic of, like, working with somebody who a is such a genius but also knows you like nobody else does.
- [36:50]
Terry Gross
That's a great relationship to have. Let's hear the song. This is Skinny from Billie Eilish's new album, which is called Hit Me Hard and Soft.
- [37:06]
Billie Eilish
With a Friend. It's a good sign. Feeling off when I feel fine 21 took a lifetime People say I look happy just because I got scared but the old me is still me and maybe the real me and I think she's pretty and I still cry? You said I was your secret and you didn't get to keep it and the Internet is hungry for the mean? It's kind of funny and somebody's gotta feed it.
- [38:27]
Terry Gross
That's Skinny. And my guests are Billy Eilish and Finneas, and their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. I think some of your fans think that you're reading their mind or telling their story.
- [38:39]
Phineas O'Connell
Mm. My favorite is no pressure. I know. My favorite is, like, when I put a song out. When we put a song out and, like, people are like, you know, how did she know I was feeling? You know, feeling this? Like, what? Where is she? Hiding in my room and has been hiding for the last, like, year of my life to write this song. That's exactly my life. I think that's, like, one of the most magical parts about music. And I've had that as a fan too, and Phineas has too. Like, you hear a song and you're like, oh, my God, this is exactly my situation. How could that be? But it's just that it can be because we're just all like suffering together. And it's nice to know that you're not alone in that.
- [39:24]
Terry Gross
Phineas, you have a new album and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family because I think your parents are often touring with you or at least they used to. So this is your song, Phineas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
- [39:51]
Phineas O'Connell
Sure. We had just finished making Billie's album and it was about to come out and I knew that this multi year world tour was on the horizon for her and that I wouldn't be on it. I was just sort of thinking about my relationship with her and how kind of public our family had become. And, you know, she's a public figure, I'm a lesser public figure. There's a lot of attention and judgment paid to us both and especially to Billie, and sort of a rumination on that.
- [40:24]
Terry Gross
Billie Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show and good luck with the rest of your tour.
- [40:33]
Phineas O'Connell
Thank you so much for having us.
- [40:35]
Thanks so much, Terry. Mom and dad are out of town. The two of us are grown ups now. Pepper had to be put down. Hard to take, hard to own. Not hard to break collarbone a little late, but not alone.
- [41:02]
Billie Eilish
And you're only 22 and the world.
- [41:06]
Phineas O'Connell
Is watching you, judging everything you do.
- [41:13]
Terry Gross
That's Family Feud from Finneas new album for crying out Loud. Billie Eilish and Finneas latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. It's currently nominated for seven Grammys. This is FRESH air.
- [41:27]
Phineas O'Connell
Every weekday, up first gives you the news you need to start your day on the Sunday Story. From up first, we slow down. We bring you the best reporting from NPR journalists around the world all in one major story. 30 minutes or less. Join me every Sunday on the up first podcast to sit down with the biggest stories from npr. Tis the season for rich meals, twinkly lights and New Year's resolutions at Life Kit, NPR's self help podcast. We're here to help you make those resolutions less of a December and January thing and more like a year long affair. We've got shows that'll help you draw up plans to meet your goals, whatever they are. Get the tools you need all year round with the Life Kit podcast from npr.
- [42:16]
Terry Gross
Our critic at large, John Power, spends his time leapfrogging between movies, books, TV shows, music and sporting events. He didn't get to review everything he liked this year. So what he does is each year at the end of the year, he chooses a few things he didn't get to that he still wants to celebrate. This year's edition includes everything from a comic performance to a political documentary to a great moment at the Paris Olympics.
- [42:41]
John Powers
Every December I look at my list of the things that I've read, watched and listened to during the year, and every December I come across things that I flat out loved yet somehow never got around to talking about. Well, I want to share these pleasures now. Although they're a far cry from raindrops on roses or whiskers on kittens, these are a few of my favorite things I'd gasp in surprise at All Fours, Miranda July's hilariously unpredictable novel about a middle aged artist who leaves her family to drive to New York from Los Angeles but only gets to the LA suburbs before she falls for a young rental car worker, checks into a cheap motel and spends a fortune redecorating her room there. All Fours is sometimes described as a book about perimenopause, the transitional stage before menopause. Yet this flattens it into sociology and self help. July's mind is far too unruly and interesting for that. Perverse, unrepentant, sometimes dirty and often laugh out loud. Funny, I couldn't stop reading passages to my girlfriend. It's a one of a kind book about a woman cannonballing into her search for a new self and a new life. You never know where it's headed. You know exactly where things are headed in Soundtrack to A Coup d'an inventive documentary about the 1960 assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the elected prime minister of the newly independent Congo who was killed at the behest of the American and Belgian governments. This is no grimly realistic sermon but a jaunty montage film blending fabulous archival footage, amazing interviews, CIA machinations and oodles of black music from the likes of Louis Armstrong and Nina Simone. Along the way, Belgian filmmaker Johann Grimanpres quotes poet Octavio Paz's When History Sleeps, it speaks in dreams. Grim and Prez's movie unfolds like one of those dreams. Life has turned giddily surreal in the Hulu series Interior Chinatown, based on the National Book Award winning novel by Charles Yu. Its high point is the star making performance by Ronny Cheng, the Malaysian comedian you may know from the Daily Show. Chiang is uproarious as Fatty Choi, a Low ambition restaurant worker who's suddenly forced into waiting tables. He treats the customer so rudely that ironically, he becomes a sensation. Here, he approaches a white couple at a table.
- [45:20]
Phineas O'Connell
What?
- [45:21]
John Powers
Hi.
- [45:24]
Phineas O'Connell
Are you our waiter?
- [45:26]
John Powers
No, I'm just carrying a pad and pen for fun. I'm wearing this vest because it makes me look good.
- [45:30]
Phineas O'Connell
Okay, I guess we'll take the orange chicken and maybe some orange chicken. Orange chicken. Why? Sorry. Why come here if you're gonna order.
- [45:42]
John Powers
Something just covered in dipping sauce? Do you even like Chinese food?
- [45:46]
Capital One Advertisement
So what should we get?
- [45:48]
John Powers
I don't know, man. It's a Chinese restaurant. So maybe you should. You should order something that Chinese people would eat, even if your pronunciation makes my ears bleed. And why do you always have to have ice in your water? It's bad for your body. Drink tea. We give you free tea.
- [46:02]
Phineas O'Connell
Idiots.
- [46:07]
Capital One Advertisement
Oh my God. That guy is amazing. We have to tell Kylie and Karen about this place.
- [46:14]
Phineas O'Connell
Karen will flip.
- [46:16]
Capital One Advertisement
I mean, she can't eat anything on this menu, but, like, she needs to come here.
- [46:21]
John Powers
The humor is slyer in my favorite mystery novel this year. The Lover of no Fixed Abode by Carlo Frutero and Franco Lucentini, a hugely popular Italian literary team. Set in Venice, it's about a middle aged signora who's an art scout for big auction houses, who finds herself attracted to an enigmatic Tour guide leader, Mr. Silvera, who seems to know everything and greets every situation with a different inflection of the word. Ah. The mystery is, who is he? Shimmering with wit and bursting with an insider's knowledge of Venice, the Lover of no Fixed Abode builds to a solution so unexpected that not one person in a million will guess it. It's a minor classic. Two big Classics are the 50s movies that got theatrical re releases this year. Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, in which a village hires seven swordsmen to protect them from bandits and the wages of fear. Henri Georges Clouseau's excruciatingly suspenseful story of four exiles in a poor Latin American town who must transport a shipment of nitroglycerin in ramshackle trucks. Both movies are magnificent in themselves. Their action scenes are still breathtaking, but they possess a special interest, because in them you can see a Japanese director and a French one laying down the template for today's Hollywood blockbusters. And they're better than our current action pictures in one crucial way. From their white knuckle stunts to their revelations of character, everything in them is human scale. My favorite sports moment this year was also alive with humanity. It featured Simone Biles, whose all around gold medal at the Paris Olympics confirmed her as the greatest woman gymnast of all time. Yet what I loved wasn't her style in winning, which was of course phenomenal, but her grace in losing in the final event, the floor exercise where she normally reigns supreme. She was bested by Rebecca Andrade, the superb Brazilian gymnast who'd spent her career losing over and over to Biles. And what did Biles do when she lost? She didn't cry, I'm still the goat. She didn't whine that the judges had cheated her. She didn't say that Andraji was lucky or actually no good. Instead, on the medal stand, she and teammate Jordan Chiles, who won bronze, literally bowed to Andraji. They bowed to her skill, to her bravery in overcoming multiple surgeries, to her always being a worthy opponent. It was a gesture of respect that, far from diminishing. Biles only made her greatness more incandescent, a valuable lesson as we entered the New Year.
- [49:11]
Terry Gross
John Powers is our critic at large, by the way. The first thing that he talked about at the top of his review was the novel All Fours by Miranda July. And coincidentally, Thursday, Miranda July will be my guest. If you're one of over 100 million people in the US on TikTok, that may end on January 19th. A new law is forcing the Beijing based company to find a non Chinese buyer for the site or face a ban in the US Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll look at what this means and if the Supreme Court or Trump could intervene. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram. Prashair Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonato, Sam Brugger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorok directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [50:33]
Phineas O'Connell
Have you ever been on a date.
- [50:34]
Tonya Mosley
With someone and suddenly found yourself disgusted by something they did? Well, you might have gotten the ick.
- [50:41]
Phineas O'Connell
On It's Been a Minute.
- [50:42]
Tonya Mosley
We're asking the big questions about dating, like what's actually happening when we get the ick and is it about them or about you? To find out, listen now to the It's Been a Minute podcast from npr.
- [50:56]
Capital One Advertisement
Hey It's Peter Sagal, the host of Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me Now. If you like Wait Wait, and you're.
- [51:00]
Phineas O'Connell
Looking for another podcast where the hosts.
- [51:03]
Take self deprecating jabs at themselves and.
- [51:05]
John Powers
Invite important guests on who have no.
- [51:07]
Phineas O'Connell
Business being there, then you should check.
- [51:09]
John Powers
Out NPR how to Do Everything.
- [51:11]
Phineas O'Connell
It's hosted by two of the minds behind Wait Wait, who literally sometimes put.
- [51:15]
Capital One Advertisement
Words in my mouth.
- [51:16]
John Powers
Find the how to Do Everything podcast wherever you are currently listening to me.
- [51:20]
Phineas O'Connell
Go on about it.