Cynthia Erivo's Road To 'Wicked'

Summary

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Summary: Fresh Air – Cynthia Erivo’s Road to 'Wicked’

Host: Tonya Mosley (NPR)
Guest: Cynthia Erivo
Date: November 17, 2025

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Main Theme and Episode Purpose

This episode of Fresh Air features an intimate conversation with acclaimed actress, singer, and author Cynthia Erivo. The discussion centers on her portrayal of Elphaba in the new film Wicked for Good, the personal parallels between herself and the iconic character, and her newly released memoir Simply More. The episode explores Erivo’s journey as an artist, challenges she faced in her formative years, her approach to acting, and her perspectives on identity, vulnerability, and self-worth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connection to Elphaba and ‘Wicked’

• Erivo discusses the deep, sometimes surprising parallels between herself and Elphaba, the “wicked witch,” particularly around themes of otherness and claiming one’s narrative.

  • “The feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate.” – Cynthia Erivo (02:12)

• A specific scene with Elphaba’s father illuminated the emotional overlap and complexity she shares with the character.

  • "It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one. That's when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that.” (02:59)

2. The Music That Heals and Empowers

• Erivo reveals how Defying Gravity was a refuge during drama school, providing solace from feelings of isolation.
  • Quote/Reading from memoir (04:14):
    “This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school... This song gave me refuge.”

3. Experiences with Exclusion at Drama School

• At the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, Erivo felt judged and excluded; staff and peers misjudged her ambition and work ethic.

  • "I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome... A comment about my body—it was too muscular. I needed to stop going to the gym... It was horrifying." (06:55)

• She recounts being asked to be a “ghost singer” backstage for someone else due to their illness, which instilled in her a lifelong protectiveness over her voice.

  • “I'll never give my voice to someone like that again… It just felt, in the moment, really awful.” (08:46)

4. Authenticity & Vulnerability in Performance

• Sharing her real-life vulnerabilities with the Wicked director in auditions was essential for connecting to Elphaba.
  • “In order to really connect with this character... I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience that I felt." (05:05)

5. Filming Two ‘Wicked’ Movies Simultaneously

• Erivo reflects on the unique challenge of shooting Wicked and Wicked for Good at the same time. She used physical cues, including different perfumes/scents for each version of Elphaba, to ground herself in each emotional state.
  • "I always find a scent for each person, but this time I found a scent for each Elphaba.” (12:42)
  • "[For the older Elphaba] it was a scent called Witchy Woo." (14:19)

6. Embodying Characters: Synesthesia and Physicality

• Erivo relates her synesthesia—seeing color in music—to her sense of character, using scents, movement, and even strenuous physical training (singing during swimming/running) to deepen her roles.
  • "If I'm doing something that's strenuous and I can sing it... when I'm standing still, it'll just be there." (16:35)

7. Roots in South London and Family

• Growing up in Stockwell, Erivo’s family, particularly her mother and sister, were musical influences.
  • "Me and my sister would harmonize together... Christmas morning is really, really fun because it starts at like 6am and goes till the middle of the night." (17:32)
• Her powerful singing voice was recognized early, at age 5, and became a means of connection and affirmation.

8. Raw Reflection on Her Father and Her Own Self-Worth

• Erivo reads a poignant poem about her absent father and describes moving from pain toward acceptance and even apathy; her drive for artistic success was once fueled by wanting to prove herself to him, something therapy helped her outgrow.
  • “If the point of doing the things you love... is to make someone care about you... it doesn’t sustain, because the most important love is that of yourself." (26:34)

9. Portraying Black Heroines: Harriet Tubman and Aretha Franklin

• Discusses the process of researching and embodying historical figures with limited direct documentation, especially Harriet Tubman, including the revelations of lesser-known aspects of her life.

  • “She didn’t feel like she had obtained freedom until other people were free.” (31:04)

• Finds Aretha Franklin’s relentless self-reinvention deeply inspiring.

  • "She was trying so hard to fit herself into a lane that wasn't made for her—because the lane was made by her." (33:19)

• On privacy, inspired by Aretha:

  • "What you decide to keep for yourself is okay... the artist's job is to create art, and we should be okay with letting them do just that." (37:16)

10. Shaving Her Head: A Statement of Identity

• The decision to shave her head post-drama school marked a break from conformity and an embrace of self as a transformative vessel for roles.
  • "I wanted them to just see my face... a canvas that can transform, a vessel that what you see is really me." (41:00)
• For Wicked, her scalp (painted green!) became literally part of the character's transformation:
  • "We spray my scalp green, the way my face is green. It's included in my hair." (43:44)

11. Defying Gravity: Becoming Cultural Lexicon

• On her “Defying Gravity” riff taking on a life of its own:
  • "It's lovely to be part of the lexicon of that now." (45:27)
• The experience of having synesthesia with the song:
  • "Blues. Strangely different. Blue. Like iridescent blues." (45:50)

12. Allies and Solidarity in the Industry

• The pact made with co-star Ariana Grande—for mutual support and open communication—demonstrates a new model for female collaboration in entertainment.

  • "If there's something going on or I'm, like, overwhelmed... I have a word that I say, and if there's something she's overwhelmed with, she has a word that she says... We talk. We have real conversations." (46:27)

• Erivo rejects the narrative of female rivalry:

  • “The myth is that it is rare for women to get along, but actually, more often than not, all we have is each other.” (47:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On connecting with Elphaba:
  "It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one." (02:59)

• On her school experience:
  "There’s one person particular who made a comment about my body... It was horrifying." (06:55)

• On giving her voice away (literally):
  "I will never give my voice to someone like that again." (08:46)

• On finding her character through scent:
  "Elphaba, who was young, wore a very different scent to Elphaba, who was older... It was a scent called Witchy Woo." (14:19)

• Memoir reading about her father:
  “It was the last day I ever spoke with him. I do not know much about my father, but I do know a few things... By some strange stroke of irony... my father can sing.” (23:22)

• On self-worth:
  "Really and truly, the most important love is that of yourself. It has to come from you first." (26:34)

• About Aretha Franklin's privacy:
  "Your life, all of your life, isn't for everyone's consumption. Each person walking through the world, no one knows everything about that person. No one." (37:16)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:25–01:51 — Introduction and Erivo’s background
• 02:12–03:36 — Finding parallels between herself and Elphaba
• 04:14 — Reading from her memoir about finding refuge in 'Defying Gravity'
• 06:09–09:44 — Experiences of exclusion and being a background singer at drama school
• 12:42–15:26 — Using scent to anchor character work, synesthesia
• 17:02–20:55 — Growing up in South London and discovering her voice
• 23:22–25:13 — Reading poem about her father, processing absence, and acceptance
• 31:04–34:05 — Playing Harriet Tubman, lesser-known biography, activism
• 33:19 — Aretha Franklin and the art of reinvention
• 41:00–44:56 — Shaving her head, transformation, and embracing her vessel as an artist
• 45:27–45:50 — “Defying Gravity” in the cultural lexicon and experiences with synesthesia
• 46:09–47:23 — Pact with Ariana Grande; supportive women in the industry

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Final Notes

This episode weaves together Cynthia Erivo’s artistry and personal odyssey, showing how performance, vulnerability, and identity continually intersect in her life. Erivo’s candor about pain, resilience, and creative process offers both aspiring artists and everyday listeners a powerful account of growth, self-affirmation, and authentic expression.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Ray from Car Talk.

[B]

Are you tired of all the depth and thoughtful care that goes into NPR shows? Want some good old fashioned goofing around and stumbling to figure out what's going on? Well, I've been taking occasional car questions. Again. You can hear them by signing up for NPR along with lots of other bonus content. Just go to plus.NPR.org this is FRESH AIR.

[A]

I'm Tonya Moseley. There's a moment in the new movie Wicked for Good when Elphaba, the so called wicked witch, stops defending herself to a world that has misunderstood her and simply exists on her own power. My guest today, Cynthia Erivo, brings that moment to life with a depth that is also personal. In part two of Wicket, Erivo captures Elphaba's evolution from outcast to someone who claims her own story, a journey Erivo also explores in her new memoir, Simply More. The book traces how she learned to shed other people's definitions of her as a woman, as a black artist and as someone who was sometimes told she was too much. Erivo first broke through on Broadway in the Color Purple, winning a Tony Award for her portrayal of Celie. She went on to earn an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of Harriet Tubman and later portrayed Aretha Franklin in Genius, Aretha, for which she was nominated for several awards, including an Emmy. Erivo is also a recording artist, blending gospel, soul and cinematic pop. Last year's Wicked and the new film Wicked for Good are adapted from the Tony Award winning Broadway musical. The new film continues Elphaba and Glinda's story, exploring what happens after their fates diverge and the myth of the wicked witch takes hold. And Cynthia Erivo, welcome back to FRESH air.

[B]

Hello. Thank you very much.

[A]

You know, there is something extraordinary about watching Wicked and then Wicked for Good and reading your memoir at the same time. There's so many parallels there. When did it click for you that your personal life and that connection to Elphaba were so close?

[B]

I think I had an inkling that there was a connection soon after I started doing the music, singing the music, learning the music. But I think it really actually clicked when I was making the film when I was playing the character that I realized, oh, this is this is a lot closer to home than I had imagined. But I didn't realize that there were so many sort of real parallels. The relationship with her father, the relationship to being in spaces that don't really include you, all of that sort of dawned on me as it was happening. So the feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate. Yeah.

[A]

Was there a particular moment during that time period where it hit you? You said, wait a minute, this is me.

[B]

We were shooting. And this is gonna sound so strange because it's such a small moment, but we were shooting the scene when Nessa Rose is about to be sent off to school and their father asks Elphaba to take care of Nessa. And I remember he speaks to her quite harshly. And the feeling that I got in that moment sort of was a click moment for me. It was. It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one. That's when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that.

[A]

What's so interesting about that is that the story of Wicked had been living with you for years.

[B]

Years? Years.

[A]

I mean, we're talking over a decade or so.

[B]

Yes. The first time I discovered it was when I was 20 or 21. Yeah.

[A]

Director John Chu actually asked you during the audition, what does Elphaba mean to you? And you told him the story of Defying Gravity, which was a song that you had learned several years before.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When you were in school.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You write about this in your memoir Simply More. And I want you to read exactly said to John. Can I have you read it?

[B]

This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school. If I was having a really bad day or was miserably aware of how odd I felt there, an outsider who couldn't connect with the others, I would hide out in a music room with a friend, Michael. We'd sing this together. We'd stay in that little room until the very last minute before we had to go back to class belting our hearts out. This song gave me refuge. Singing it during a very vulnerable time in my life. These songs made me feel safe.

[A]

That was also the first time that you shared out loud how alienating school was for you.

[B]

Very much so, yeah.

[A]

What was it about that moment that it came to you to actually be vulnerable and tell? And also that was a show of the connection between you and Elphaba as well.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt really safe in that room. I felt like John would understand it. And I also knew that in order to really connect with this character, to really help people understand that I knew and understood who this character was, who this person was, that I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience that I felt that this character had been through. And I felt like this character needed the vulnerability that I can sometimes be afraid of. Sharing or being and better at now. But in that moment, I just thought, if I'm not honest about what I feel or have felt or how this music has made me feel, then I think I'm leaving something on the table that is important.

[A]

That experience that you had at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, that was a very difficult time for you, Maybe one of the most difficult times in your entire career.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I just felt like people really didn't understand me. And at the same time, whilst not understanding, didn't really make very much room for me either. It was sort of. Once a judgment was made, that judgment stayed. I think I was lucky enough to have one or two people during that time who really looked out for me, who cared for me, but it was a tough experience to be there because I really didn't. I just didn't think I fit. And lots of strange, interesting microaggressions from people who now are not at the school. But it was an interesting, tough time.

[A]

What were they telling you about yourself or how did you think they perceived you?

[B]

I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome. I think they thought I didn't care about my work. A lot of people there was sometimes. Well, there's one person particular who made a comment about my body. It was too muscular. I needed to stop going to the gym. And at that point I just was like, well, I like the body I'm in. And so to have someone who was teaching, who was supposed to be mentoring me, say that was just. It was horrifying.

[A]

You were a young girl, you had grown up in South London, you had to work your way through school. And that was part of the issue was that you, unlike other students, had other jobs. You were working as a background singer.

[B]

Background singer in the bar, at a theater. I was working in a shirt and tie shop as well over the weekend. And so I was like, I was working a lot. And that happened because when I first got there, I was given the opportunity to go and do backing vocals for a band that would have paid for my tuition in its entirety. And when I asked if I could take the time off, which was two weeks, I was given an ultimatum either to stay and let the gig go or leave and take the gig. But I couldn't come back.

[A]

What an impossible position to be in.

[B]

And I didn't want to leave. So, yeah, I stayed.

[A]

During your time there, you were given these bit roles, but there's this moment that you write about where you were asked to sing for another singer who had laryngitis. But you weren't asked to be on stage.

[B]

No, I was backstage.

[A]

Backstage. And then they would lip sync you and you did it.

[B]

Yeah. It's one of those moments that I. I've started to learn to forgive myself for because I felt so previously. I felt so mad at myself. So I guess there's a part of me that's a little bit ashamed that I would sort of give up my voice in that way. But it's also why I'm vehemently protective of the way I use my voice. I do not say yes to everything at all. It takes a lot for me. It has to mean something for me to sing, and it has to make sense. I will never give my voice to someone like that again. Because it felt like someone removing a gift that was meant for me and giving it to someone else. And it just felt, in the moment, really awful. And I remember feeling really wrong. It felt wrong.

[A]

I want to play a clip from the latest installment of Wicked because we learn that the wonderful wizard of Oz is a fraud. Yes, but in this film, you're standing up to Oz, who is oppressing the animals. And I want to play this clip to illustrate this. It's you as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Glinda, and the wonderful wizard of Oz, played by Jeff Goldblum. And he's telling you why efforts are meaningless. Let's listen.

[B]

Elphaba, I've missed you. Can't we start again? Yes. Please just say yes. No. Don't you think I wish I could? I would give anything to go back to a time when I. When I actually believe that you are wonderful. A wonderful wizard of Oz. No one believed in you more than I did. But there's no going back. And we can't move forward. Not until everyone knows what I know. And once they know the truth, they're not gonna believe it. How can you say that? No, no. I'm just being straight with you. I could tell them that I've been lying to them till I'm. Forgive me, blue in the face, but wouldn't make any difference. They're never gonna stop believing in me. You know why? Because they don't want to.

[A]

That's my guest today, Cynthia Erivo in Scene with Jeff Goldblum and Ariana Grande in Wicked for Good. You all shot this back to back.

[B]

Wicked and Wicked for Good, not back to back. At the same time.

[A]

At the same time, simultaneously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you have to hold anything back emotionally as you were moving through these two different storylines that One kind of evolves from the other.

[B]

Yeah, it. It was really interesting. Cause sometime I think we had shot quite a bit of the first movie, but not nearly enough to say we'd almost finished. No way. We were nowhere near. And then we were sort of all the way into the second, and we were sort of tandeming between the two movies. So there were days where, luckily, you would sort of know where the character was at this point, and you'd have some sort of hindsight for where they had come from and what they had been through in order to move into the second movie. But there were some times where you're sort of guessing, really, because you hadn't shot a certain scene. You're just sort of assuming that the scene is gonna feel this way.

[A]

How did you navigate that? Did you just surrender to the idea?

[B]

Yeah, you have to. You have to. And also, I think both of us, actually, Ari and I, both of us sort of made really specific decisions about how we looked, what we walked in, the clothes we were wearing, so that even the scents that we were wearing. Because I always find a scent for each character that I play.

[A]

What do you mean by scent?

[B]

Perfume. I always find a scent for each person, but this time I found a scent for each Elphaba. So Elphaba, who was young, wore a very different scent to Elphaba, who was older. And so scent's memory was a lot to do with how to sort of click back into where we are in time.

[A]

Oh, this is so interesting. Can you slow down for a moment?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

First off, how did you come to that idea, and what sense did you choose?

[B]

I started doing this a long years, years and years ago. The first time I did it, I think I did it with Harriet. And hers was, like, cedarwood and lavender, I think it was, but like, essence with a base oil, not a perfume. Because I. I wanted it to feel like something she could find, that she could, you know, discover, make. I wanted it to feel like it was off the earth. And then I realized how powerful it was for me. And so I kept doing it with my characters. So with Elphaba, I knew that they had to feel different. So Elphaba, who's younger, I sort of messed around with, like, big florals, like, really deep florals, so tuberose rose lilies. And then I mixed it with, like, a tobacco oud. And sometimes I find a scent and it's not right. And I go back and I go. And it's a real something will say, this is the one.

[A]

Oh, this is so fascinating. So for Elphaba, for good, what was her scent?

[B]

Hers? You'll never believe me, but it. It was. It was a scent called Witchy Woo.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Which, when I found it, I thought, there's no way this is going to work. It will be way too on the nose.

[A]

Where did you find it?

[B]

I was staying at Soho Farmhouse in the uk, and they have this little sort of gift shop, and in the back they have a few perfumes. And I saw this scent. It said Witchy Woo. And I thought, I'm not. I'm not gonna like this. I'm not gonna like it. It's too on the nose. There's no way. So I sprayed some on my hand and immediately I wasn't convinced. But you know how perfume changes your. Your.

[A]

Your body.

[B]

Body, your scent, your own natural oil. Change the scent. So I go away and I. I keep going back to it. My body's like, no, this is a really good scent. There was a reason it was there for. You go back for it. So I go back for this scent. So it's. I. I'm wearing Witchy Wu. And this time like a grown oud.

[A]

And this helped you keep your mind around the different emotional notes between the two movies. Do you think that has something to do with. Because you have synesthesia. Synesthesia, which means you can see color when you sing. Music.

[B]

Yeah, music.

[A]

Do you feel like this might be connected?

[B]

I'm sure. I think my senses are heightened, so I know I have a heightened sense of smell. And obviously with music, there's a heightened sense there. So I think maybe. But I've never thought of it that way. I've always thought of it as just another access point to each of the characters. It's just sort of the character's way of telling me another bit about who they are, you know, what. What calls to them, what. What is part of their DNA. And. And that is another thing that I think just I sort of discovered along the way, because it isn't the same ever. I've never worn the same thing for any character.

[A]

There's some pretty intense training that goes into this role, both physical, emotional. I mean, when you were even training to audition, is it true that you would try to sing while you were swimming?

[B]

Yes, I would sing. And so I'd do laps, then sing, and then I'd run and then I would sing. I just wanted it to be in my body, you know, it's the idea that if I'm doing something that's strenuous and I can sing It. Whilst I'm doing the thing that's strenuous, when I'm standing still, it'll just be there. I won't actually have to work that hard for it to be there.

[A]

Let's talk a little bit about where you grew up. You grew up in South London.

[B]

South London.

[A]

Stockwell.

[B]

Stockwell. Yeah.

[A]

You grew up with your mom and your younger sister?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are there voices like yours?

[B]

As in singing and speaking?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

My sister can really sing. She'll hate me for saying it out loud, but I think she has a beautiful singing voice, my mum. I think my acting ability came from my mum. But she loves to sing and she loves music.

[A]

Was there a lot of music in.

[B]

Your home all the time. All the time.

[A]

Were you guys singing together?

[B]

Yeah. Me and my sister would harmonize together. My mum would sing in the car and we would sing along. Christmas morning is really, really fun because it starts at like 6am in the morning and then just goes till the middle of the night.

[A]

When did you know that your voice could make people feel?

[B]

I had an inkling that something was happening with my voice at about 5, because I was asked to sing Silent Night for a nativity. I think it was because I was just not shy that they asked me to sing it. I don't know that they knew I could sing, or maybe they did, but I had no idea. I was just happy to sing the song because of people's reaction. I knew that it made people happy. I know that much. You can. You know, it's basic. You see people smiling, people clap, people stand, they're happy. And I connected it with that. But I think it was when I was maybe about 12, when people kept asking me to sing. Like I was on the school playground and it would be lunchtime and other kids would say, hey, can you sing? Can you sing this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then I would sing it and they would get their other friends and they go, cynthia's gonna sing. You know. And then talent shows started coming up and they would ask if I would sing. And that's when I knew that something that I. That I could do something with my voice. I think when I really understood that it could make people feel. I want to say I was about 18. I sang @ a place called Troy Bar, which is like an open mic. It's like a little restaurant that had an open mic night every Tuesday or Thursday. And I one day decided to get up and sing and you could hear a pin drop.

[A]

Do you remember what you sang?

[B]

I sang say yes by a band called Flowetry.

[A]

Oh, of course. Yeah. Would you sing a little bit? Is that asking too much?

[B]

No. No. Loving you has taken time. Taking time. But I always knew you would be my light. I recognize the butterflies inside me. Oh, sense is gonna be made tonight. Tonight. All you gotta do is say yes. All you gotta do, you say yes. Don't deny what you feel. Let me undress your baby. Open up your mind, just rest, I'm about to let you know. You make me so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so. You make me so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so.

[A]

Was it acapella like that?

[B]

It started that way and then the pianist, I remember his name was Oscar, played for me. And every time I went back to that place, he would just start the song. He would just start the song. So I didn't ever have a choice. He'd always just sing this.

[A]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo. She stars as Elphaba in Wicked for and she's written a new memoir called Simply More. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.

[B]

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[A]

Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesburg digital producer at Fresh Air.

[B]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[A]

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan.

[B]

I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.

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It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.

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An exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

[A]

You didn't grow up with your dad. You don't know much about your dad.

[B]

No. And like I know him, I've met him. My mum gave us the space and the choice to grow a relationship. She gave him a choice to grow the relationship. But he never really took the opportunity.

[A]

Can I have you read a section from the book where you talk about him? It's actually a poem.

[B]

Yes. Fun facts about my father. I don't know how old he is. I don't know his birthday. I don't know his profession. I don't know his parents names. I don't know where he lives. I don't have his phone number. Suffice it to say, I really don't know much about him at all. I was 16 when he left me alone in a London underground station after an argument about a transit pass. When he told me he didn't want to be in our lives anymore, I stood there in shock. My head was empty. And then I walked away. The first step felt like running into a brick wall. Pain, then agony. My emotions opened like floodgates. I cried so hard I could barely breathe, could barely see. It was only when I ended up on the wrong train platform that I realized that I had been walking in the wrong direction. Just as I made my way to the right platform, there he was. He was in front of me, walking straight in my direction. I held my breath. Maybe he was going to apologize. Maybe this argument would just disappear before my cascading scenarios could solidify into hope. He passed right beside me. He made no eye contact, said nothing. I was nothing. From that moment forward, to him I had ceased to exist. It was the last day I ever spoke with him. I do not know much about my father, but I do know a few things. His name, that he can whistle. That he always wore a leather bomber jacket. We both have a gap between our two front teeth. And by some strange stroke of irony, and because God likes playing jokes, my father can sing.

[A]

Oh, Cynthia, first off, thank you for reading that. Have you heard your father's voice?

[B]

Yes. It's a good voice. He's got a lovely voice. I learned to Whistle from him. Which is why all of those things are so strange, because we have so many similarities.

[A]

You wrote in a very matter of fact way.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Was it easy for you to write that?

[B]

It was easy to write that. Now, I think if you'd have asked me to write it, I don't know, 10 years ago, it would have been really difficult. But I think. I don't know. I'm in a real, like, place of acceptance, I think. And a strange apathy as well.

[A]

Can you describe that apathy?

[B]

Yeah, I just. I don't wish him harm, but I, you know, I. It's not like I'm waiting for some grand resolution. I'm sort of okay with it being exactly what it is. I have no desire to start a relationship. I have no desire to mend a relationship. It doesn't really occupy my thoughts that much.

[A]

But it took time to get to that point.

[B]

Yes, yes, it did.

[A]

Because there was a time where you wanted to be able to show him. Of course I am. Cynthia Erivo.

[B]

You're going to miss this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it doesn't sustain if the point of doing the things you love or the point of doing a thing that you're good at is to make someone care about you, is to prove that you are meant to be loved, is to prove that you are worthy of being loved. It doesn't sustain because really and truly, the most important love is that of yourself. It has to come from you first. And it was a great driver. That sort of wanting to prove was really fantastic for a time. It was really great.

[A]

Was there a particular moment in your career where maybe you. You got a role or you played a piece of music and you thought, my dad's gonna hear this or see this?

[B]

I think, I think maybe up until the Harriet of it all, I think that's when I thought, oh, maybe he'll see it and think I messed up. And I think it was when I had that thought that I thought, I don't know, that this is the healthiest thing for me. I think that's actually when I started therapy. Just because it doesn't work and it's so much more joyful when it's not for that.

[A]

I'm not gonna spoil it, but there is a storyline thread in Wicked for Good where Elphaba's father is very prominent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you ever have a moment while you were filming that where you were thinking about your own experience?

[B]

Oh, I think most of the way through it, to be honest. I think the time when it really sort of all came to our head is that in the first movie where we're in that sort of we call it the Oz Dust Ballroom, that solo dance moment that turns into a duet, that's when it all sort of comes to a head. So when you see those tears falling out of my eyes, that was not, that was not rehearsed. That was not planned. It just happened. Yeah.

[A]

How therapeutic that can be for you to, to actually act it out.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't planning for it to be, but as long as you're open to it, that that can happen. That, that these moments can really help to move through some things that you maybe didn't know were there to move through or that the things that you've been through can come to the surface and you can use them to connect to the moment. Yeah.

[A]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo. She stars as Elphaba in Wicked for Good, and she's written a new memoir called Simply More. This is FRESH air. Wildcard is where big name interviews feel like conversations with a friend.

[B]

I mean, I can't believe how lucky I've been. You didn't say goodbye the right way, McConaughey, she told me. Mm. I don't think you're Princeton material. I'm nothing if not open, I guess.

[A]

I'm Rachel Martin. Watch or listen to Wildcard on the NPR app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24 hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and and on your way to that thing. Listen to the NPR News now podcast now. Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've.

[A]

Got you covered on All Songs Considered.

[B]

NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends and yeah, some serious music insight. I'm Keep it real. I have no idea what this story is about. Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday. Wherever you get podcasts.

[A]

Did you know about Harriet Tubman growing up?

[B]

I did, I did, but we just didn't get enough information on her. It's like a small little thing in the textbook that takes up maybe one page if we're lucky. If we're lucky. But when you do further excavation of who they are, when you learn more, you realize just how Full a life she led.

[A]

How did you decide? Because we don't have. You were able to dig through the research that is available, but you had to create a person out of what is like just a black and white photograph and all of these little bits of information.

[B]

I was lucky because when I was playing her, an image had just been unsurfaced of her as a 20 something year old. And it was totally different to the picture that we. Right.

[A]

That was new because we had only had her as an older woman.

[B]

As an older woman. And so that sort of struck questions for me. I was lucky because my director, Casey Lemons, and the writer Greg had sort of helped guide me through the major moments in her life that we never have spoken about. And they're there. It's there. Yes. We know that Harriet Tubman was a hero and saved many people and freed many slaves, including herself. What we didn't know is that when she was doing it, she was 27. She was a young woman. She was also broken hearted. She had left her love behind. She went back to get him and he was with someone else. We don't know that. Why would she continue after that heartbreak? Well, because she couldn't rest. The reason she continued is because she didn't feel like she actually had obtained freedom until other people were free. She didn't feel like she had obtained freedom until she could share it with her family. Also, she was not well. She would black out.

[A]

She had like, narcolepsy.

[B]

I actually think she might have had epilepsy, but those episodes would bring visions. I learned that she. She sang, she was a general. She led a woman's suffrage movement at a time when really no one wanted any suffrage for black women specifically. All after she had her run through the Underground Railroad. That sort of was done by the time she was 30. Something which we sort of think of as what was happening until she was in her older age. But actually by the time she was 45, she was a general.

[A]

These women you also play, I mean, they're also so purpose driven in a way that, like, I also feel this way about Aretha.

[B]

Mm. She was. Yes, she was.

[A]

Were there any surprises you learned about Aretha?

[B]

She kept trying again and again and again that at the very beginning she wanted to sort of go in the same route as like the jazz greats. And it didn't work for her. And it was sort of. What about the Ellas and the Dinah Washington? The Dinah Washington. And it just didn't make sense for the voice that she had. Also for the history of music that she had. But she was trying so hard to fit herself into a lane that wasn't made for her, because essentially the lane that was made for her was made by her. But there was never an inkling of her going, like, giving up. I never felt like that was an option for her. The option was, okay, this doesn't work. Well, now. What? What else works?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That for me, was like a real. Like, even when I think about it now, I was like, that's the feeling I get from her. And that actually something about the transformation that happens with her and music, I think, is a real spiritual one. I think she would disappear into music almost like she was in a trance, and then come back again when she was done.

[A]

Was there any self consciousness for you because you used her real voice?

[B]

I did, yeah.

[A]

In the series to take on Aretha's music and embody her in that way with your voice.

[B]

Yeah. I was curious about the things that she could do. I realized that there is the skill that this woman had is. I mean, tantamount to. No, there is no other person like her. There's no other. There's no other voice like hers. There is no other person who sings like her, because what she was able to do with her voice is unlike anyone else's that I've ever heard.

[A]

I want to play you singing from Aretha. Let's listen.

[B]

Yeah. Chain, chain, chain, chain, chain of who? Every chain has got a wiggle. Might be a weak but I'll give you strength. You tell me to leave you alone. My father said come on home. My doctor said take it easy. Oh, but your loving isn't much too strong. I made it to your.

[A]

Aretha is notoriously private.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And also, like, I think the funniest thing to do is to watch Aretha.

[B]

Franklin in the interviews. Oh, it was my favorite thing to do. It was my favorite thing to do. It was my favorite because she's so brilliant, she's so good. She's so good at keeping everything to herself and still giving you something.

[A]

The point that I want to get to though with you is that, like, I wonder what you walked away with with that, because for the longest time, you know, I think we, as fans, we want from those who give us inspiration through their art, we want to know everything. We want to know the source of it. She was very much like, this is what I'm going to share, and this is it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Even when it came down to the story about her life.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so for you, as someone who has played her and those notes, some of them not really good.

[B]

No.

[A]

Especially about her childhood.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What did you walk away with in thinking about what you tell and what you don't tell and what rights people.

[B]

Have to it, that it's all very important, that what you decide to keep for yourself is okay, that there is sort of a want from others to know everything. But your life, all of your life, isn't for everyone's consumption. Each person walking through the world, no one knows everything about that person. No one. Not even the closest people to you. There are things that you get to keep for yourself because they are just yours. And I think the wonderful thing about Aretha not sharing absolutely everything about her life is that we got to know her as the artist, that we inevitably have to respect the work. And, and sometimes that should be enough. Sometimes that's enough because that's what she was. That's what she wanted to give. And I think we sometimes, we sometimes yearn for more from, from artists. And actually the artist's job is to create art, and we should be okay with letting them do just that, you know?

[A]

Is that a lesson that you had.

[B]

To come into yourself? Yeah. I think I'm more of an open book than Aretha, but I'm also okay with keeping some things for myself. And also I think I love the way artists and actors and stars and celebrities of old would keep some things for themselves.

[A]

It's harder to now, right?

[B]

Yeah. But it is harder to, because the temptation is to share everything, because there's so much access to ways to share everything. But there is a choice. You can choose to share some and keep some. And I think that it's okay to have because if you share everything, there's nothing left. I think a little mystery is okay. You know, I think it's okay for some people to guess a couple things and maybe get it right and maybe not, you know, because then there's something left.

[A]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo. She stars as Elphaba in Wicked for Good, and she's written a new memoir called simply More. More after a break. This is FRESH air.

[B]

You care about what's happening in the world? Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean. For the price of your coffee, listen to the State of the World podcast from npr. Latin music has never been Bigger, but it's always been big on all Latino. Fifteen years in, we continue celebrating Latinidad through a music lens, transcending borders through get to know artists from La Cultura on a deeper level. And throw some new Latin music recs into your rotation. Listen to Alt Latino in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Instead of letting an algorithm throw mediocre podcast recommendations at you, Sign up for NPR's Pod Club newsletter. We comb through hours of audio to find the gems, the episodes that will make you gasp, cry, or crack up in a public place. Then every week, we send those pics to your inbox and tell you why they're worth your time. Subscribe [e-mail] podclub something that you made the decision of many years ago was to shave your hair and talk about that decision because it also is something that sort of has changed the audition process for you.

[B]

Yeah, it started a long time ago, just as I was coming out of drama school. I don't know, I just knew that I wanted something different. Around that time. Everyone who was auditioning, girls who were auditioning, wanted long hair and a particular kind of aesthetic. And I sort of repelled against the idea because I sort of. I didn't want any distractions. I don't know what gave me the idea, what gave me the wherewithal to think. I want to lessen the distraction. I want them to just see my face. I want when I walk in, for them to see a canvas that can transform, a blank canvas, a vessel, A vessel that what you see is really me and I can change into the character in front of your very eyes. And so what I would do is after I left drama school, I cut my hair. I went to get a haircut, and the hairdresser was very, very scared to cut it because my hair was quite long. It came down past my shoulders.

[A]

Also, you're black, Cynthia, and you know, our hair means.

[B]

To me. Yeah, it's so much. It does. It meant a lot to my mom. My mom was, like, very surprised I did. I don't think I even told her before I cut my hair. And when I came back, she was really very surprised and sort of. Yeah, you. You cut your hair. What. What's going on? Also, traditionally, when we cut our hair, one, it's for heat if you're African. And often you cut your hair if you lose someone. So there's a. An understanding of sort of loss. You know, that the old adage when you, when a woman cuts her hair or changes her hairstyle A life shift has happened that is very true of the Nigerian tradition. And so for me, I felt like I went for my own life shift. I just sort of thought, having had it happen right after drama school, it felt like I was sort of leaving something behind and taking from it what I needed and letting go of whatever else I didn't. And when I cut my hair, I felt strangely like myself. And the more I have, I felt like I've been steadily moving towards cutting it off completely. And Wicked was the moment when I took it off completely. I realized that my scalp had to be green. So when you watch Wicked, you'll see that the braids, that. It's 360. So you can see my. In between the braids, you can see a green scalp. That is my scalp. It is not the wig. It's not the lace of the wig. The lace of the wig is basically translucent. And you can see my. Underneath the wig. But we spray my scalp green. The way my face is green. It's included in my hair and. Cause I knew that was gonna happen. I thought, well, I guess we'll have to just cut it all off.

[A]

This has been transformative because, of course, you want it to go in as a vessel, but it seemed like those who were casting had a visceral reaction to it.

[B]

Yeah. So when I went in, I had very short hair, and that was when it was short and blonde. Strangely enough, when I went to audition, and by the time I had gotten to the roll itself, it grown a little bit more. And then I. Then I cut it. And I think everyone was very surprised that I was going to cut my hair, because I think they were going to just make the lace dark underneath it and let it be like that. And I was like, why? Why? If we're going to do it, we should do it. And also when I. When I cut it off, I really liked what I saw, so I just. I just went with it. And I. I thought, there's just one. It's a one extra thing that moves me closer to connecting completely with this person so that I'm not fooling myself about what I'm seeing in. In the mirror. I was asked if I wanted to be painted green or if I wanted it to be cgi. And I said, I want. I want the full thing. I want to be painted green. But that includes my scalp.

[A]

That's gotta be a long process, too.

[B]

Yes, it is. At minimum, 2 hours and 45 minutes if it's just my face and neck. And every single time, Every single time.

[A]

You know, the Defying Gravity riff, it's now just become a cultural phenomenon. There's that moment where Keke Palmer is at the NAACP Awards and she just starts singing it. You know, what's it like to have your voice become a reference? You know, it's part of the cultural language now.

[B]

One deeply flattered. And it's kind of wonderful because many women have had their riff and they've done it before. And of course, you have the original by Idina Menzel, but it's just lovely to be part of the lexicon of that now. It's lovely.

[A]

What colors do you see when you sing Defying Gravity?

[B]

Blues. Strangely different. Blue. Like iridescent blues.

[A]

Yeah. Ariana Grande sat in the seat where you were sitting for the first wicket, and she told me that the two of you all made a pact with each other to help protect each other as you move through.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What was that pact?

[B]

That. That we would make sure that we were always speaking to one another and that it would sort of be between us first if there was a problem in. If something was not right. Contracts, the whole lot.

[A]

How did you know that you had an ally in Ariana?

[B]

You just feel it, you know, the first time we spent time together was probably on my floor and we sat for, like, five hours just chatting. And I kind of just knew. You just know. You know, it was easy to talk to her. It was easy to get really real with her. If there was something I was struggling with or something she was struggling with, we would just sort of, like, find a corner to just chat immediately. We came up with, like, little safe words for each other. If there's like a. If there's something going on or I'm, like, overwhelmed for something, I have a word that I say, and if there's something she's overwhelmed with, she has a word that she says, you know, so that we know where the other one is. Yeah. And we. We really, like. We talk. We have real conversations.

[A]

Is that rare for a colleague, For a co star?

[B]

I don't. I think the myth is that it is. Is it rare for it to be this close? I think so. Is it rare? Completely. I don't think so. I think that we are led to believe that women cannot get along and women cannot coexist within film and take care of one another. But I think that the continuation of that myth is the thing that makes it true. But actually, more often than not, all we have is each other.

[A]

Cynthia Erivo, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.

[B]

You too. This was wonderful.

[A]

Cynthia Erivo's memoir is titled simply More. She stars in the new film Wicked for Good, which is out in theaters on Friday.

[B]

Nobody in all of us, no wizard that there is or was, is ever gonna bring me down. I hope you're happy. Come on.

[A]

Tomorrow on FRESH air, Ben Stiller talks about growing up with showbiz parents. His father, Jerry Stiller, is known for his role on Seinfeld as Frank Costanza, George's father. And before that, he was in a comedy duo with his wife and Ben's mother, Anne Meara. Ben's new documentary is about the recordings his father made about his life and marriage. I hope you can join us. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper, and our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Teresa Madden directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.