Daniel Dae Kim Fakes His Own Death In 'Butterfly'

Summary

Fresh Air Podcast Summary: Daniel Dae Kim Fakes His Own Death In 'Butterfly'

Introduction In the August 11, 2025 episode of NPR's Fresh Air, hosted by Terry Gross, actor Daniel Dae Kim discusses his latest project, the Prime Video series Butterfly, alongside his illustrious career in television and theater. The conversation delves into the nuances of his character in Butterfly, his approach to acting, representation in media, and his personal experiences shaping his career.

Exploring Butterfly: Character and Themes Daniel Dae Kim serves as both the star and executive producer of Butterfly, an action-packed spy thriller that intertwines elements of family drama, betrayal, and dual identity. Kim portrays David Jung, a former U.S. spy who fakes his death a decade ago to protect his daughter, Rebecca. Unbeknownst to Rebecca, who believes her father is deceased, she has entered the world of espionage as an assassin. As Rebecca becomes deeply entrenched in this dangerous life, David emerges from hiding to rescue her.

Kim explains his attraction to the role: “I think so many things, but, you know, I've always liked action. I've done it throughout my career... [03:24]” He emphasizes the balance between intense action sequences and the emotional depth of familial relationships, reflecting his own experiences as a father dealing with past mistakes and the trauma that can affect both parent and child.

Stunts and Physicality in Acting A standout feature of Butterfly is the extensive use of physical stunts, many of which Kim performs himself. “It's important to me,” he states [05:20]. Kim shares his commitment to authentically portraying action scenes, believing that the physicality grounds his performances and creates a coherent synthesis between body language and emotional expression. He contrasts his approach with actors who rely heavily on stunt doubles, expressing a desire to maintain a genuine connection with his character's physical and emotional states.

Filming in South Korea: A Personal Connection Butterfly is uniquely set and entirely filmed in South Korea, a choice that holds personal significance for Kim, who was born there. “[...] we shot in over 20 cities throughout all of South Korea. I learned a lot about Korea as well. We went from, you know, the mountains of Andong in the countryside to the skyscrapers of Seoul and Busan...” [06:41]. Kim recounts a heartfelt moment during filming in Busan, where he invited his relatives to witness the production firsthand, bridging his professional and personal worlds in a meaningful way [07:25].

Representation and Challenges in Hollywood A significant portion of the discussion centers on representation in media. Kim reflects on the historical challenges Asian actors face, citing the Miss Saigon controversy as a pivotal moment [11:35]. He elaborates on how the casting of a white actor in an Asian role with prosthetic alterations sparked protests and highlighted the broader issue of visibility and authenticity for Asian Americans in the entertainment industry.

“...making us invisible on camera or on stage harms us in our culture, because it makes us, in some ways, dispensable.” [13:23]. Kim passionately discusses the delicate balance between advocating for authentic representation and the potential repercussions that such advocacy can have on opportunities for other Asian actors.

Personal Background and Activism Kim shares insights into his upbringing in the United States, detailing his family's immigration from South Korea and the socio-economic challenges they faced, particularly during the decline of the American steel industry and incidents like the murder of Vincent Chin [23:25]. He highlights his activism against anti-Asian violence, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing personal experiences that fueled his advocacy.

Reflections on Lost and Character Development Discussing his iconic role as Jin in the ABC series Lost, Kim reveals the evolution of his character from a stereotype to a deeply nuanced and beloved figure. “[...] one of the main reasons I did Hawaii 5o was because it stayed in Hawaii and we didn't have to move. My kids were in school...” [09:33]. He explains how collaborative efforts with writers and fellow actors transformed Jin into a multi-dimensional character, countering initial perceptions and contributing positively to Asian representation on television.

Tony Nomination and Yellowface Kim's recent Tony nomination for his role in the revival of Yellowface is another focal point. The play, written by David Henry Wong, is a semi-autobiographical comedy that critiques racial casting practices in theater. Kim recounts a scene from the play, highlighting the challenges and societal implications of casting non-Asian actors in Asian roles [11:35]. He underscores the importance of such narratives in fostering cultural awareness and combating systemic invisibility.

Balancing Career and Family Throughout his career, Kim has consciously made choices to prioritize his family's well-being alongside his professional ambitions. He discusses the personal impact of frequently portraying characters who die on screen, a phenomenon he refers to as "representation with a capital R," affecting both societal perceptions and his own family's aspirations [35:10]. This reflection underscores the profound influence media representation has on individual lives and community narratives.

Humor and Self-Representation Kim also touches upon his forays into comedy, noting his enjoyment in subverting his leading man image through humorous roles. He cites his performance in Always Be My Maybe as an example, where he playfully pokes fun at himself, demonstrating his versatility and willingness to explore diverse facets of his persona [39:43].

Conclusion Daniel Dae Kim's conversation on Fresh Air offers an in-depth look into his multifaceted career, his dedication to authentic representation, and the personal motivations driving his artistic choices. From leading a groundbreaking spy thriller to challenging industry norms through theater, Kim remains a pivotal figure advocating for diversity and depth in storytelling.

Notable Quotes

• On Action and Acting: “I like to be fully activated through my body... [05:20]”
• On Representation: “Making us invisible on camera or on stage harms us in our culture... [13:23]”
• On Personal Impact: “...it's representation in my own family and how I was level setting their hopes and dreams inadvertently through my work. [35:19]”
• On Comedy: “I really enjoy it because I love comedy... [39:43]”

Timestamp Highlights

• 03:24 – Kim discusses the blend of action and family drama in Butterfly.
• 05:20 – The importance of performing his own stunts.
• 11:35 – Detailed account of the Miss Saigon casting controversy.
• 23:25 – Reflection on the Vincent Chin incident and its impact.
• 35:10 – The effect of character deaths on his children and personal life.
• 39:43 – Embracing humor in his roles and self-representation.

This comprehensive summary encapsulates Daniel Dae Kim's insightful conversation on Fresh Air, highlighting his commitment to meaningful storytelling and the ongoing quest for authentic representation in the entertainment industry.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. Our guest today is actor Daniel Dae Kim. His first big role was on the TV show Lost. He was nominated for a Tony earlier this year for starring in the revival of the play Yellowface. Now he's the star and an executive producer of the new TV series Butterfly. On Prime Video, he spoke with Fresh Airs and Marie Boldonado.

[Capital One Ad]

My guest, Daniel Dae Kim, has spent years on television, often playing characters that defy stereotypes. In a recent piece on Kim, the New York Times says he's become known for characters that are, quote, earnest, serious, enigmatic, dignified. Now he stars in the new show called Butterfly, playing David Jung, a former spy for the US who years ago faked his death to protect his young daughter, who he feared was in danger because of his work. Now it's almost 10 years later, and his daughter Rebecca, thinking that her father is dead, has entered the world of espionage as an assassin. David comes out of hiding to try and save her from that life. Here's a scene from the first episode of Butterfly. David has just come face to face with his daughter for the first time since she was a little girl, both with their guns drawn.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

You still haven't put your gun down.

[Capital One Ad]

Neither have you.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I owe you answers. I know that. But right now we have to get out of here.

[Capital One Ad]

I'm not going anywhere till you tell me.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

No. We have to leave.

[Capital One Ad]

Tell me. Tell me why you left when I was 14 years old. Tell me why you made me an orphan. How could you do that? How could you do that?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Everything I did, I did to protect you.

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Daniel Dae Kim is also an executive producer of Butterfly. Kim became known for playing Jin on the hit show Lost, a role that began with him only speaking Korean, then evolved into becoming one of the show's most nuanced characters. Kim co starred on the reboot of Hawaii 5o for seven seasons before making headlines for walking away from the show over a pay equity dispute. Earlier this year, Kim became the first actor of Asian American descent to receive a Tony nomination in the category of best leading actor in a play for his work in the Broadway revival of the comic satire Yellowface. He's also producing and creating projects through his company Throwing, which focuses on telling more inclusive stories. His other shows and movies include the good Dr. Raya and the Last Dragon always be my maybe joyride. And the live action adaptation of the Last Airbender. Daniel Dae Kim, welcome to FRESH air.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I'm so happy to be here.

[Capital One Ad]

Let's start with the new show Butterfly. The series is an action spy thriller, but it's also about dual identity, family dynamics, betrayal. What drew you to this role?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I think so many things, but, you know, I've always liked action. I've done it throughout my career and, you know, I've always found that it helps ground me in scenes and helps my acting work. And so I love the fact that this was an action series. But at its heart, it's actually a family relationship drama. And as a dad, I can tell you that a lot of the scenes between David, my character, and Rebecca resonated with me because I've made mistakes as a father and I've done so with the best of intentions. But, you know, the trauma that we can leave on our children and the trauma that is left on us as kids is sometimes something we really have to work hard to get through.

[Capital One Ad]

Yeah. The daughter of your character has become an assassin and your character is scared that she's kind of losing her humanity, that she's too good at being a spy. And he worried that what he did to her by leaving her for her protection has led to the way she is, that caused this damage to her. So that was a part of the story that you related to or that you wanted to sort of delve into.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

You know, so many people have family businesses.

[Capital One Ad]

Right.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

It just so happens that the family business is, you know, espionage. And, you know, I think a lot of parents want a better, easier life for their kids than they had for themselves. And that was the way I felt going into the relationship with Rebecca.

[Capital One Ad]

Yeah. So this is a spy thriller. I mean, there's all these elements of a family drama, but betrayal, you know, and friendship and relationships. But it's a spy thriller with a lot of action sequences. There are shootouts, hand to hand combat, car and motorcycle chases. And I read that you did most of the stunts yourself. Is that true and is that that's important to you?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

It's true and it is important to me. But I'll also say, you know, I take pride in being able to shoot a sequence where you can have a close up of my face, you know, on a bike or, you know, in a hand to hand fight. You know, I can tell when I see stunt doubles doing most of the work for an actor. And there's nothing wrong with that, of course, you know, not every actor enjoys doing stunts, but I do. So I think it's a win win when I can do as many as I can.

[Capital One Ad]

You said something interesting about how you like to do action because it helps ground you as an actor. So it's like the physicality of it kind of helps you connect to the character you're playing.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yeah, I like to be fully activated through my body. Like, sometimes I watch actors perform and there's a disconnect between what their mouth is saying and what their body is telling us through their language and the body language. And to me, it's important that everything works in synthesis. And sometimes action helps me do that, especially if there's a lot of conflict in a scene. I don't want to manifest that through physical tension, but I do want to feel the stakes of it emotionally.

[Capital One Ad]

Well, the whole series takes place in South Korea. Did you do all your shooting there and have you shot other projects in South Korea before?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

100% shot in Korea, and I'm really proud of that. You know, anytime you try to work in a foreign country, there are a lot more variables than there would be in if you were working in the States. But, you know, I love Korea. You know, I'm familiar with Korea, and it was nice to be able to show the world the Korea that I know. And to be honest, we shot in so many locations. We shot in over 20 cities throughout all of South Korea. I learned a lot about Korea as well. We went from, you know, the mountains of Andong in the countryside to the skyscrapers of Seoul and Busan and so many places in between. To me, it's a. It's a video postcard for Korea.

[Capital One Ad]

Well, one of the episodes is called Busan, which is the city where you were born. What was it like filming there?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

It was so heartwarming. It was something of a homecoming. I remember one night we were shooting in a market in a neighborhood where my relatives actually still live. And I'd invited 15 of my cousins and aunts and uncles and nephews to come to set. And the fact that. That they were sitting behind the camera, all with their headphones on, and this being their first experience at all of show business in their neighborhood market, was a moment I'll never forget because it meant so much to me. It was literally the coming together of all of my world.

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I would think that the entertainment industry, when you would have left South Korea versus now, is so different. And like, you know, the feelings that your family would have about entertainment and shooting would be Dramatically different. Just cause the entertainment industry in South Korea has changed so much since then.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Well, you're absolutely right. You know, when my family left Korea, it was still a post war country. And you know, not just from the Korean conflict, but also Vietnam. And so the mentality there was really about survival and the idea of doing something that you love was a luxury. And you know, that's why there was such an emphasis in my family to be a professional, a doctor or a lawyer. Because those were the jobs that provided the most stability and you wouldn't have to worry about how you were gonna get your next meal.

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There is this one line that the daughter character, Rebecca, says who? She's an assassin. And she says to her dad, you're a spy and a kill. You can't have this job without screwing up your family. And this is maybe a silly question, but did you ever wonder if the same thing could be said about being in the entertainment business?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yes, in fact, I've seen it. You know, it's very difficult to have a successful career as an actor and be a successful parent and have a loving, close family. It's something that I've worked really hard in my life to, to achieve and it's why I made certain decisions about my career. After Lost, some of my castmates were going back to LA to pursue opportunities in film. But you know, one of the main reasons I did Hawaii 5o was because it stayed in Hawaii and we didn't have to move. My kids were in school and they could have the continuity of just of living their childhood all in one place. And as special a place as Hawaii is, I wanted to prioritize their well being and it's why, you know, I chose to stay.

[Capital One Ad]

Earlier this year you received a Tony nomination for your lead role in the revival of the play Yellowface. The play was written by David Henry Wong, who was the first Asian American playwright to win a Tony Award for best play. It's a semi autobiographical comedy that blurs the lines between autobiography and satire. You play a version of the playwright himself. The play covers how in real life he protested the, quote, yellowface casting of the musical Miss Saigon, where they cast the white actor Jonathan Pryce in the role of the head Chinese character. For listeners who don't remember the story of Miss Saigon and how it was cast, would you mind describing what the controversy was like? So Miss Saigon was Andrew Lloyd Webber, a musical that was in London and then moved to Broadway. And there were issues about who was cast to play the roles of Asians in the musical do you remember the details?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I do. You know, Cameron McIntosh is one of the most successful Broadway producers of all time. And he wanted to make a play centered around the opera Madame Butterfly. And he set it during the Vietnam War. So at its core, an Asian story, but it tells stories of American GIs and the people of Vietnam. The central character was someone called the Engineer, and he was meant originally to be Asian. But in London, Jonathan Pryce, an actor, by the way, that I respect a great deal, I think he's an amazing actor, was hired to play this role even though it was intended to be Asian. And they changed it to a biracial character. And then I guess the icing on the cake was they actually taped his eyelids to make them look more, quote, unquote, Asian. And so when they tried to cast in America, this is when David raised the flag and said, you know, this is an Asian role. We should hire an Asian actor. And at that time, no one was speaking up about these kinds of issues the way they are now. That's why David was so ahead of his time, and he lost this battle. He protested the Asian American community, protested Actors Equity, our union, supported them. And then when Cameron McIntosh threatened to pull the show and not not mount it in New York, the union changed its mind and allowed Jonathan Price to come in and play the role. The only concession was he didn't tape his eyelids in New York. And that's why I think this play is so important, to remind us of the ways that making us invisible on camera or on stage harms us in our culture, because it makes us, in some ways, dispensable.

[Capital One Ad]

Yeah. Another moving thing about the play is the fact that it's partially about David Henry Wong's real life dad, who was an immigrant who moved to the US and really loved this country. But he got caught up in an anti Chinese investigation in the late 90s. He was a Chinese American banker who was accused of laundering money for China. And this is covered in the play, too. And it's also funny. The play is also funny, but it does have these other, deeper issues. And I wanna play a scene from the play. They captured one of your performances and they were able to broadcast it on pbs. And you can still find it on PBS streaming. But here your character, the playwright, the fictionalized version of David Henry Wong, is on the phone with his father, played by Francis Ju, who actually won the Tony Award for best performance of an actor in a feature role in a play for his performance in Yellow.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Dad, I'm a little busy right now. Doing what? Trying to write a new play.

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Good idea.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

What's that supposed to mean?

[Capital One Ad]

I said it was a good idea.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

It's only been three years since I'm Butterfly.

[Capital One Ad]

But you've been smart, keeping your name in the newspapers. That's good, son.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

You mean all that Miss Saigon stuff? Thank God it's finally starting to die down.

[Capital One Ad]

But so many articles on you. Free publicity.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

But everyone disagreed with me.

[Capital One Ad]

Everyone. All the big shot guys. Dick Cavett, Ed Koch.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Here.

[Capital One Ad]

Wait.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

This one.

[Capital One Ad]

My favorite.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

You saved the articles.

[Capital One Ad]

I am ashamed of my union. Actors Equity.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Oh, yeah. Charlton Heston, when I was working in a laundry.

[Capital One Ad]

Could I ever have have dreamed that one day Charlton Heston would write about my son?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I'm telling you, this is a land of opportunity.

[Capital One Ad]

That's a scene from the play Yellowface, which was recorded and broadcast by PBS as part of the Great Performances series. This scene is great because it shows how devoted the playwright's dad is to the US and what the father story brings up is, like you were saying, another theme of the play, the idea that Asian Americans, that immigrants in general are perpetual foreigners in this country, that they're always seen as not American when. Even when they're super devoted. And David Henry Wong's dad story really kind of speaks to this, how he kind of got targeted because he was a Chinese American banker. Wrongfully targeted.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

You know, it harkens back to, you know, World War II, when Japanese Americans were incarcerated. Japanese American citizens were incarcerated because American America thought that because they were Japanese, that their loyalties would lie with Japan instead of America. You know, and we didn't see this. You know, it's the same thing that's happening, you know, with the Muslim community, you know, after 9, 11. And so this idea that somehow, because you look a certain way, you must not be American is something that I think we're smart enough to move beyond. It's a much more nuanced conversation than that.

[Capital One Ad]

Yeah. That your allegiances are divided or something.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yeah.

[Capital One Ad]

I think the other thing that this show brings up, as far as the representation part, is that it's often a lose, lose situation. Like in the play, the playwright criticizes the show Miss Saigon for using a white actor to play the lead role, even with putting tape on his eyes. But then people get mad at him because they threaten to cancel Miss Saigon, thus depriving tons of other Asian American actors from having a job. There's this tension, like, you can't win. Is this something that you've felt in your own career? Like that tension?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yes. I've been very conscious of that very question anytime I'm offered a role or I win a. I often think about what the consequences of representation are for that character. And it's a layer of consideration I wish I didn't have to have because I would like to be free enough as an artist to be able to play any character. That's interesting to me. And I think when we talk about representation, that's ultimately what we want. It's not about, you know, that we never want to play nerds or drug dealers or, you know, women play geishas. It's not that. It's that there's such a dearth of the other characters that we only get seen as those one things. But if we can play all of humanity, all of the kind of colors on the spectrum of humanity, that's the goal. And until we get there, though, we have to focus on the way that certain ideas of us have diminished who we are.

[Capital One Ad]

Yeah. The play reminded me of that term rep sweats, which is coined by comedian Jenny Yang a couple years ago. It's used to describe kind of the pressure that underrepresented groups sort of feel themselves on, you know, the anxiety that if there are so few representations of a certain group, that those few representations are then so important, like they have to be positive or they have to be successful, or then in the future, they might not get greenlit or they might not, you know, become successful, and then they won't make another version or another project because of that.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yeah. When I started Lost, my biggest fear was that the show would get canceled after the pilot. And obviously every actor fears that, you know, if they're in a job they love. But I feared it because the character of Jyn in the pilot was not a likable character and played into some stereotypes that I'd been trying to avoid for most of my career. And had he not had the opportunity to grow the way he did through the series, I thought that I would be doing my community a disservice. And so those were the rep sweats I was going through. Thankfully, the creators of the show were not only incredible storytellers, but very conscious of this issue. And they worked hard to make sure that not only Jen, but every character was made three dimensional. And what you saw was not what you got, necessarily.

[Terry Gross]

That's actor Daniel Dae Kim speaking with fresh airs. Anne Marie Boldonado. His new spy series Butterfly, premieres today on Prime Video. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH air.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

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[Anne Marie Boldonado]

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[Daniel Dae Kim]

There's a lot of news happening. You want to understand it better, but let's be honest, you don't want it to be your entire life either. Well, that's sort of like our show Here and Now Anytime. Every weekday on our podcast, we talk to people all over the country about everything from political analysis to climate resilience, video games. We even talk about dumpster diving on this show. Check out Here and Now Anytime, a daily podcast from NPR and wbur.

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Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesper, digital producer at Fresh air.

[Terry Gross]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

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One of the things I do is.

[Terry Gross]

Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly Picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

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[Terry Gross]

So [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

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I want to go back a bit to your childhood. You were born in South Korea and moved to the US when you were around a year old, I think. Can you describe where you grew up?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Sure. My family and I started in New York in the Bronx and then Long island, and then moved to Pennsylvania to the Lehigh Valley. I spent part of my childhood in Easton, and then in junior high school, we moved school districts, even though it was only five miles away, to Bethlehem. So I did my high school in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

[Capital One Ad]

And this, I mean, not recently, but these were kind of steel towns in Pennsylvania.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Bethlehem Steel, you might remember, was the number two steel maker in the world in the 70s and the 80s. And we happened to move there right at the time of the decline of the American steel industry. And I think about the timing of that because that was also right around the time of the murder of Vincent Chin.

[Capital One Ad]

Can you remind people of that incident and the aftermath?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Vincent Chin lived in Detroit, and it was during the time that the American auto industry was failing and Japanese cars were emerging as market leaders. And a lot of American auto workers were out of work and recently unemployed. So there was a lot of anti Asian sentiment at that time. They would take Japanese cars and destroy them, and anyone who looked Asian was in danger. Vincent Chin was celebrating his bachelor party at a club and he, though he's Chinese, was mistaken for someone Japanese, and he was beaten to death by two out of work autoworkers. And those two autoworkers, though they murdered him, never served a day in prison because the judge said, these are not the kind of men you put in jail.

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You've been very vocal about fighting violence directed at the Asian American community. Specifically during the COVID pandemic. You even spoke in front of Congress about it. You also have a personal experience with this, with members of your family being targeted.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

The fact that people who have lived here for generations were. Were called the source of the China virus and exacerbated by politicians who were not very forward thinking is something that we still experience and we experience during COVID You know, my heart broke so many days in a row when I would see incident after incident of elderly Asian people being attacked simply for what they look like. And it's something I do have personal experience with because my sister was hit by a car by someone who drove up onto the sidewalk to hit her and then called her racial slurs after hitting her. And the justice system in her case failed her miserably. So I know firsthand the ways that we are silenced and the ways that our experiences are somehow considered second class.

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When did you realize that you wanted to be a performer?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I think I had my first inkling of wanting to perform as a young kid, maybe nine or 10, because I remember getting. I've never told this story before. I remember, you know, getting into a fight with my dad, and I was upstairs in my room, I was crying, and I thought, wow, this would make a great story. And so it started then, but I never really thought of it as a legitimate career choice because from a young age, it was always kind of told to me that I should become a doctor or a lawyer, and so, you know, or an engineer. But it wasn't until college, where I was at a small liberal arts school called Haverford, where the school was small enough, where there were no barriers to entry to anything you wanted to study. And I decided that I would take an acting class as an elective. And that changed the course of my life.

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I think the theater program that you're a part of in college was kind of experimental. Can you describe what it was like and what you found so exciting about it?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

The kind of drama we were studying there wasn't Kitchen Sink, Neil Simon kind of plays. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I love that too. But we were working with experimental playwrights, Artaud, Beckett, Genet, Brecht. And I love that so much because it gave me a different angle into entertainment and storytelling. And it also is very political in nature.

[Capital One Ad]

Did your parents come to see any of your plays during college?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

They did, they did. They did not understand them. Even my friends who came to see the shows, my classmates didn't understand the plays because everyone was used to, you know, Cats and Phantom of the Opera. And this was not that. But I'll never forget one time that my parents came to see me do a play at the Eugene o' Neill Theater center during my junior year, when most people were going abroad to Europe. I chose to spend the semester at the o' Neill center at this program for young actors called the National Theater Institute, or nti. And it was my first real experience doing naturalistic theater. Tennessee Williams. And one of the plays we did was the Trojan Women. And I played Poseidon. And we did a site specific version of Trojan Women where we were out on a beach and I was on a rock and I was in a loincloth made of seaweed. I was holding this big wooden staff and my big line, my intro line, was, I am Poseidon, God of the seas. And I don't know if you know this, but Connecticut in January is like 20 degrees outside. So I'm freezing. My parents are up there and they're thinking. They told me they were thinking, you must really be dedicated to this if you're willing to freeze your buns off in Connecticut for theater. And so that was one of the first times they saw me perform.

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Let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Daniel Dae Kim. He's the star and executive producer of the new spy thriller TV series Butterfly. It premieres today on Prime Video. Earlier this year, he was nominated for a Tony Award for Best Actor in A for his role in the revival of the comedic play yellowface. More after a break. This is FRESH air. Material scientist Anna Maria Coquita is creating tech that replicates skin and simulates touch a prosthetic hand would feel if the patient is holding a hot cup or a cold bottle of beer. Ideas about our skin and how we use it to interact with with the world. That's on NPR's TED Radio Hour. Listen. Wherever you get your podcasts, do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics Podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics, but in making politics make sense. Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. One of your biggest roles was on the ABC show Lost. That was a huge hit. You played Jin, one of the people who ended up on the island after a plane crash. You were one of the main characters. I read that you almost had to turn down the role because of scheduling.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I had just been offered the role of a photographer who was also a cave diver in a movie that shot in Romania called the Cave. I had literally just been offered that role. And the audition for Lost came up and there was some question as to whether or not I was going to be able to do both. And it looked bad for a long time. My agent at the time told me, well, just audition. Let's see what happens. And as it turned out, I got Lost and then I got the scheduling for the movie and it looked like I wasn't going to be able to do both. So this is one of the many, many reasons I love JJ Abrams. I wrote JJ Personally, and I said, jj, I love this show. I would love to be a part of it. This is my problem. This is my dilemma. Can you help? And he switched around the shooting schedule of the pilot so that I could fly back from Romania and be a part of Lost.

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You said at the beginning of Jyn's trajectory, the character embodied a lot of stereotypes that you had worked so hard to avoid. But Jyn does change over time. He becomes a better man, a better husband. So did you have to fight for those changes?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yes, I did, as did the actors who played my wife, Yunjin Kim. We talked about it a lot and we talked to the producers a lot. We were also aided in the writers room because we had a couple of writers who were either Asian American or had experience with friends and family who were Asian American. So they were our advocates in the room. And I'm forever grateful to them because sometimes it doesn't matter what happens 2000 miles away in Hawaii. When you're writing a show in Los Angeles, it's a very separate process. So I'm grateful to people like Monica Macer, Christina Kim, who were in that room and advocating for our characters.

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How would you describe Jin from that pilot episode?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Yeah, I would say Jyn was overbearing, domineering. He subjugated his wife. And I think those were things that we'd seen in media before. It's the whole Madame Butterfly thing. And those were things that I wasn't interested in playing. And in fact, Jyn was supposed to be killed off in season one. That's how disposable he was.

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I want to play a scene from Lost. This totally tragic scene is of your character dying with his wife's son, played by Yunjin Kim. Here the two of you are trying to escape the island in a submarine, but there's an explosion, and you realize you can't escape, so you stay together. You have to go.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

No, I can do this.

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No. No, you can't. Please go.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I won't leave you. I'm gonna get you out of here.

[Capital One Ad]

Please.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I love you, son.

[Capital One Ad]

I love you. That's a scene from the series finale of Lost. Have you heard that scene in a while?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Michael Giacchino's score gets me every time. That music is so moving. I find myself kind of emotionally taken right back to when we were shooting.

[Capital One Ad]

Oh, that was that scene when it played in the episode. I don't know if we needed to give a spoiler alert for decades old show, but that scene when it played back was so heartbreaking for, you know, all of the loyal Lost watchers.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

But to me, like, thinking about that scene and the fact that viewers were emotionally affected by it speaks to how far that character came.

[Capital One Ad]

Oh, yes, absolutely. He changed the most. He had the most growth. I think that's true on social media. This is a while ago now. You wrote that the fact that you died in so many shows on screen was starting to upset your kids. How did you come to that realization? And why was the. What was the problem for them? That's so sad.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Well, you know, I've heard a lot of my friends who are African American say, well, you know, you know, in the movies, a black man's always verse to die, you know, And I think there's some truth to that, but it was very similar for Asian people. Like, we were always the first to die. In fact, you know, in the cave I'm one of the first to die. And it was happening so often in my career that when and I would get an offer, I would talk to my kids and family and tell them all about it. The first question they would ask me was, do you die? And that's when I knew I should take a look at this phenomenon, you know? And it also made me realize the impact that my work was having on my kids and the perceptions they were taking away from the characters I was playing and what they represented. So it wasn't just representation with a capital R in the society. It was representation in my own family and how I was level setting their hopes and dreams inadvertently through my work.

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You've spoken in the past about how long it took for you to play romantic leads or even characters with full names and emotional arcs. Do you think things have changed?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I do. I really do think things have changed. For the positive, when you look at movies like Crazy Rich Asians and you see a romantic comedy that's so Asian Americans, it's something that could not have been done when I started my career. Just could not. I can't imagine any studio executive saying like that sounds like a moneymaker. So we have made progress. And when you see TV shows like Squid Game or Beef, you know, we're seeing representation on a much more sophisticated level than we ever have. There are more actors of Asian descent who are working today than there ever have been. And so these are, like, unquestionable signs of progress that we have to note and appreciate. But I still haven't played a romantic lead, and I've been doing this for 30 years. It's been a goal of mine since I started, but I just can't seem to get cast as someone who gets the girl.

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I feel like you often have fun with your image. You've done some funny cameos in films. I'm thinking about movies like Joyride and Always Be My maybe starring Ali Wong and Randall Park. That's a romantic comedy. I wanna play a clip from that film where you play a famous restaurateur who's engaged to the celebrity chef played by Ali Wong. And at one point Ali Wong's character calls you, quote, a sexy, handsome, chiseled statue of Korean Eric from the Little Mermaid. That's her quote. You're kind of a douche. And in this scene, you're telling Ally's character that you want to slow the relationship down.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and if it's cool with you, I'd like to postpone the wedding. It's not that I don't want to get married. I do. It's just that this opportunity has come up for me to go to India with Jose Andres.

[Capital One Ad]

The chef from Bazaar?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Exactly. He's opening up a new restaurant there and he knows about my two years in the saffron fields of Kashmir with Alice Watt.

[Capital One Ad]

So you want me to go to San Francisco alone?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

That's the beauty of it. We'd both be in new surroundings, we'd be apart together before entering into a lifelong commitment. I just, I just want this to be right so that when we do.

[Capital One Ad]

Get married, he'll be the best husband he can be. So in that sense, it's really for the both of us.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

What a douche.

[Capital One Ad]

That's a scene from the 2019 Netflix film Always Be My maybe. Do you like to play around with, you know, your leading man image?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I really enjoy it because I love comedy, you know, yellowface, as we discussed, I was really attracted to because it's funny and so often people don't think of me that way. And, you know, I'll do anything that is interesting. As we discussed before, I want to play every kind of role, every kind of character, and I'll play poke fun at myself in a heartbeat if I like the project and the people I'm working with.

[Capital One Ad]

Daniel Dae Kim, thank you so much for joining us.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

[Terry Gross]

Daniel Dae Kim's new TV series Butterfly, premieres today on Prime Video. He spoke with FRESH air's Anne Marie Boldonado. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews the hundredth anniversary edition of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes by Anita Luce. This is FRESH air.

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On the Throughline podcast, you have the right to remain silent. It's a staple of cop shows. When I think of Miranda today, I think it's so misshapen now that it's really lost its ability to do much good. The Fifth Amendment and the right to remain silent. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Rachael Martin, host of Wildcard from npr.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

I've spent years interviewing all kinds of.

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People, and I've realized there are ideas that we all think about but don't talk about very much. So I made a shortcut, a deck of cards with questions that anyone can answer, questions that go deep into the experiences that shape us. Listen to the Wildcard podcast only from npr.

[Terry Gross]

As an actor and screenwriter, Anita Luce was a pioneering figure. At the age of 25, she became the first female staff screenwriter in early Hollywood. Luce is also known for writing the novel that would become the classic Hollywood musical Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. Our book critic Marin Corrigan takes a look at the novel, which turns 100 this year.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

1925 was a very good year for American literature, in fact, probably the best ever. The Great Gatsby was published that year, and so is Hemingway's In Our Time, Willa Cather's the Professor's House, Alain Locke's landmark Harlem Renaissance anthology the New Negro, and Sinclair Lewis's Arrowsmith, which won the Pulitzer Prize. There's also Theodore Dreiser's American Tragedy, Gertrude Stein's the Making of Americans, and I'll stop there. Except to say that the New Yorker magazine was also founded in 1925. Amidst all these heavyweights, it's easy to overlook a cheeky little comic novel. But in 1925 Anita Loose was the author, laughing all the way to the bank. Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, a tale of two flappers on the prowl for sugar. Daddies Bearing Diamonds, was a runaway bestseller, Translated into over 13 languages, made into a stage play and a silent film, now lost. In 1953, Luce's novel was updated and reimagined as a musical starring Marilyn Monroe as Lorelai Lee, the blondest blonde of them all, and Jane Russell as her snappy brunette sidekick Dorothy. I've only seen the film, so the novel, newly reissued as a Modern Library paperback, was a revelation to me think the zany surrealism of the Marx Brothers crossed with the desire, both sexual and material, of Sex and the City. No wonder James Joyce was one of the novel's many highbrow modernist fans. Luce wrote Gentlemen Prefer Blondes in the form of diary entries written by Lorelai. There's not one continuous plot here so much as there are dozens of vignettes, lots of them, satirizing social issues like prohibition and censorship. Here, for instance, is Lorelai's description of one of her many suitors, a reformer named Mr. Spufford. She tells us, Mr. Spufford spends all of his time looking at things that spoil people's morals. So Mr. Spufford really must have very, very strong morals, or else all the things that spoil other people's morals would spoil his mor girls. So I told Mr. Spofford that I thought that civilization is not what it ought to be, and we really ought to have something else to take its place. Is Lorelei truly naive or Faux? Reading Gentlemen Prefer Blondes is like listening to a Gracie Allen skit on Old Time radio. The surface humor derives from how harebrained Gracie, like Lorelai, seems to be. But perhaps the joke is really on anyone who dismisses either of them as just another dizzy dame. Courtesy of their male admirers, Lorelai and the more obviously shrewder Dorothy dine out at swank Manhattan joints like the Colony and Trocadero and accept tributes of champagne and square cut diamond bracelets. Early in her diary, Lorelai tells us that she's decided to flee to Paris with Dorothy in tow, in order to improve my writing and avoid marriage to an author where he is the whole thing and all I would be is the wife. A train excursion to Vienna follows that sets the stage for one of the weirdest encounters in all literature. An overwrought Lorelai's session with Dr. Freud, spelled in her diary as F R O Y D. Here's a snippet from that session. So Dr. Freud and I had quite a long talk in the English language. So it seems that everybody seems to have a thing called inhibitions, which is when you want to do a thing and you do not do it, it, so then you dream about it instead. So Dr. Freud asked me what I seemed to dream about, so I told him that I never really dream about anything. I mean, I use my brain so much in the daytime that at night they do not seem to do anything else but rest. So then Dr. Freud said that all I needed was to cultivate a few inhibitions and get some sleep. Case closed. Edith Wharton, who was another famous fan of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, declared that it was the great American novel. I wouldn't go that far, but in this retro era of cottage core trad wives and puff sleeves, prairie dresses galore, how fun it is to travel back to the dawn of the modern age and revelation in the giddy freedoms of flapperdom.

[Terry Gross]

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed the 100th anniversary edition of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes by Anita Luce. Tomorrow on Fresh air, my guest will be Jeff Hiller. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere as Joel, the main character's best friend who runs a secret nighttime cabaret at his church for his LGBTQ friends. Jeff Hiller originally felt called to be a pastor, but in his church, being gay was a pretty major obstacle. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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A kiss on the hand may be quite continental but diamonds are a girl.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Best friend.

[Capital One Ad]

A kiss may be grand but won't pay the rental on your humble flat or help you at the automat Men grow cold as girls grow old and we all lose our charms in the end but square cut or pear shape these rocks don't lose their shape Diamonds are a girl's best friend Tiffany's Cartier Support for NPR comes from this station and from Britbox presenting Outrageous, a new Britbox original drama based on the scandalous true story of England's infamous midfield sisters. Streaming this and more original [e-mail] and from indeed committed to giving job listings increased visibility with relevant candidates through its sponsored Jobs feature. Learn more at Indeed.com NPR Congress has approved a White House request to eliminate federal funding for public media. NPR remains committed to our mission of informing the public, increasing your understanding of the world and enriching everyday life. But without federal funding, we are relying on your support now more than ever. Please give today at donate.npr.org pop culture happy hour NPR's easy, breezy laid back pop culture podcast has brought you the best in culture for the past 15 years.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

That means we spent the last 15 years talking about.

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About what, exactly? Bad reality TV? Actually good. Marvel movies? Actually awful Marvel movies?

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

Reboots? Pop music?

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Prestige dramas? Netflix slop? That's 15 years of buzzy pop culture chit chat.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

And here's to many more. With you along for the ride, listen.

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To Pop Culture Happy Hour on the.

[Anne Marie Boldonado]

NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.