Ethan Hawke

Summary

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Fresh Air (NPR) – Ethan Hawke

Aired: February 2, 2026
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Ethan Hawke

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Overview

This episode of Fresh Air features a wide-ranging, intimate conversation between Terry Gross and acclaimed actor, writer, and filmmaker Ethan Hawke. Nominated for his fifth Oscar for his performance as lyricist Lorenz Hart in Blue Moon, Hawke discusses the challenges of portraying complex characters, his personal evolution as an artist, his relationship with time and aging, his friendships and losses, the influence of music on his life, and his work across genres, including his recent documentary on Merle Haggard and his role in the FX series The Lowdown. The tone is thoughtful, candid, and often deeply personal as Hawke reflects on the joys and trials of a lifelong creative journey.

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1. Playing Lorenz Hart in Blue Moon

(Key discussion: 00:15–07:28)

• Blue Moon explores the final phase of Lorenz Hart’s tumultuous partnership with Richard Rodgers and Hart’s own internal conflicts.
• Hawke details the emotional and technical demands of inhabiting Hart's character—his outsized personality, self-doubt about appearance, and need to conceal his sexuality.

“He is incredibly jealous, and he's incredibly happy and proud of his friend. He's gay and in love with a woman. He's the most diminutive, smallest person in the room, and he's the biggest personality in the room… I felt I was being asked to play two things at the same time, which is, of course, why I want to do it.”
— Ethan Hawke (03:49)

• Hawke worked closely with director Richard Linklater (their ninth collaboration), describing how Linklater pushed him to fully "disappear" into the role and shed his own familiar instincts.

“Anytime he would see me, he would say, I saw you, I saw you, I saw you.”
— Ethan Hawke on Linklater’s direction (06:19)

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2. Embodying Difference and Vulnerability

(Key discussion: 07:28–09:22)

• Hawke, a tall man, immersed himself in playing someone very short, noting the social and psychological impact of stature and perceived attractiveness.
• He describes how traditional ideas about masculinity, attractiveness, and power affected his performance and expanded his empathy.

"It did unlock for me, I mean, just even all my normal ways of flirting...I had to find a different set of tools to get her attention. So I don't know that I could speak intelligently about it, but I could feel it in my guts." — Ethan Hawke (09:02)

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3. The Pattern of Self-Destructive Genius

(Key discussion: 09:22–14:52)

• Hawke reflects on portraying self-destructive artists like Chet Baker and Hart, and on the real-life struggles of River Phoenix and Philip Seymour Hoffman.
• He connects artistic drive to heightened sensitivity and the prevalence of addiction and pain in creative communities.

“Half of why I act sometimes is to impress those two men that I was friends with... they were the gauge by which I judged myself. And they still are.”
— Ethan Hawke (14:27)

• He shares a memory of an early experience with River Phoenix, using it to reflect on talent, sensitivity, luck, and loss.

“Some of us get second chances... some people don't have those guardrails. And I don't understand it. And I know that the answer is you have to know yourself.”
— Ethan Hawke (12:19)

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4. Time and Aging

(Key discussion: 14:52–19:45)

• Gross asks how projects like Boyhood (shot over 12 years) and Linklater’s Before trilogy changed Hawke’s sense of time.
• Hawke describes how acting keeps him in constant awareness of aging and change:

“I often think Father Time is the main character of all the films we've done together.”
— Ethan Hawke (16:45)

• On getting older:

“I'm very aware of how many more years I might have to contribute, and I don't like wasting time anymore... I only have awareness of how many things I thought I understood that I don't understand."
— Ethan Hawke (17:12)

• He notes the shifting perception as the youngest, and now oldest, in his artistic circles.

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5. Art, Success, and the Second Half of Life

(Key discussion: 20:58–24:44)

• Gross revisits Hawke’s documentary on pianist Seymour Bernstein, focusing on a pivotal existential exchange about life purpose beyond material or religious gain.

“Some of the most successful things I've done have been some of the worst things I've done. And sometimes I think that just playing life more beautifully is what I'm after, but I don't know how to do it.”
— Ethan Hawke, to Seymour Bernstein (22:06)

• Hawke credits Seymour with helping him unify his work, home, and personal aspirations, especially through working with his wife.

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6. Stage Fright and Finding Self-Worth

(Key discussion: 24:44–29:45)

• Hawke confides that despite early confidence, he experienced debilitating stage fright mid-career—panic amplified by tying his whole sense of self-worth to acting.
• Bernstein reframed stage fright for him:

“You're finally understanding and respecting. You should be nervous. Your anxiety is your friend. Let it be your friend. This is guiding you towards excellence...”
— Seymour Bernstein via Ethan Hawke (24:44)

• Hawke recounts a story where, after forgetting a monologue mid-performance at Lincoln Center, he simply screamed and started over. The “mistake” became liberating.

“If you are actually in the moment, you actually can't do anything wrong... It's this desire to be perfect that's stifling.”
— Ethan Hawke (27:57)

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7. Spiritual Longing and Early Life

(Key discussion: 31:04–34:21)

• Hawke discusses his yearning for religious discipline in youth, experiencing the traditions of Episcopalianism and working on religious missions (notably in Haiti at the House of the Dying).
• He speaks of his parents’ faith and how their commitment to something larger than themselves impacted him:

“They showed me how it can open up and deepen your life and give you something to live for that's bigger than your wants and needs and desires.”
— Ethan Hawke (33:08)

• His daughter helped him see the arts as his own kind of spiritual vocation.

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8. Comic Noir, The Lowdown

(Key discussion: 34:21–38:48)

• On his role as eccentric journalist Lee in the noir-satire FX series The Lowdown (created by Sterlin Harjo):

“He’s Quixote chasing windmills, running into propellers. He’s a dreamer and an idealist and self-centered and doesn’t see his own blind spots and he's a moron. And I just completely relate to him.”
— Ethan Hawke (37:38)

• Hawke appreciates how genre allows serious themes to be woven into entertaining form, and found special joy collaborating with Harjo—"I can't remember a time I just ran with the character like I did with this one.” (38:22)

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9. Love of Music and the Merle Haggard Documentary

(Key discussion: 39:04–42:54)

• Hawke traces his lifelong bond to music to his pianist father, and his awe as a passionate (if talentless) fan.
• On Merle Haggard:

“He just was always himself, and he didn’t follow anyone else's bandwagon. And he was a humanist... Not to mention he's a genius songwriter and... I kind of wanted to remind everybody about what a legend he was.”
— Ethan Hawke (41:10)

• The impetus for the documentary was Haggard’s ability to transcend partisan boundaries, offering an alternative to contemporary polarization.

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10. Closing Reflections

(Key memorable moment: 43:07–43:16)

• Hawke requests Chet Baker’s “My Funny Valentine” as the segment’s musical outro, connecting personal themes of artistry, vulnerability, and artistry.

“I love your show and I love NPR and I really appreciate what you guys do, and I'm just thrilled to be on your program. So thanks for having me.”
— Ethan Hawke (43:16)

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Notable Quotes at a Glance

• On challenging roles: “Every now and then you do, you bump up against a part that presses you to the wall of your ability. And you know, you can never be as good as the part is demanding of you. And that's a kind of thrilling spot to be in.” (04:55)
• On time: “I often think Father Time is the main character of all the films we've done together.” (16:45)
• On mentoring and legacy: “I'm very aware of how many people mentored me and cared for me, and am I doing that for others? Am I meeting my responsibilities as a citizen, not just as a father?” (17:12)
• On anxiety in art: “You're finally understanding and respecting. You should be nervous... This is guiding you towards excellence and you don’t need to see this as a problem at all.” (24:44)
• On failure and liberation: “If you are actually in the moment, you actually can't do anything wrong... It's this desire to be perfect that's stifling.” (27:57)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:15 – 02:21: Show open, context, Blue Moon setup
• 03:49 – 07:28: Preparing for and playing Lorenz Hart
• 09:22 – 14:52: Self-destruction in genius, River Phoenix, addiction
• 15:34 – 19:45: Understanding time through long-term projects
• 20:58 – 24:44: Art and success, lessons from Seymour Bernstein
• 27:57 – 29:45: Learning from failure on stage; being in the moment
• 31:34 – 34:21: Spirituality, missionary work, parent influence
• 34:21 – 38:48: Satirical noir, playing Lee in The Lowdown
• 39:04 – 42:54: Documentary on Merle Haggard and love of music
• 43:07 – End: Outro, “My Funny Valentine” by Chet Baker

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Final Thoughts

The episode captures Hawke’s dual commitment to art and humanity—his willingness to be vulnerable, to learn from mistakes, and to grow through creative and personal challenges. The discussion is rich in both anecdote and insight, offering listeners a window into the life of an artist in constant evolution.

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Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Ethan Hawke has just been nominated for a best actor Oscar for his starring role playing lyricist Lorenz Hart in the movie Blue Moon. It's his fifth nomination. The others were for supporting actor and for adapted screenplays. Hawke had other roles. In 2025, he starred in the horror film Black Phone 2 as a serial killer who haunts people's dreams. And he starred in the FX series the Lowdown, a loving but humorous take on film noir created by Sterlin Harjo, who also directed Hawk in an episode of the popular series Reservation Dogs. The Lowdown has been renewed for a second season. I spoke with Ethan Hawke in November. He had also just completed a new documentary called Highway 99, a double album about country music star, songwriter, singer and guitarist Merle Haggard. That film is expected to be released sometime this year. Hawke was in his early teens when he made his first film, Explorers, co starring River Phoenix, who was about the same age. Hawke was in his late teens when he co starred in Dead Poets Society, which starred Robin Williams. Hawke seems to have done it all, a child star who survived the experience intact, an Oscar and Tony nominated actor, a documentary filmmaker and a novelist. Let's start with a clip from Blue Moon, directed by Richard Linklater. It's set on the night of the opening of Oklahoma, the first musical that Hart's longtime songwriting partner Richard Rodgers wrote with another lyricist, Oscar Hammerstein. There's an after party at Sardi's where theater people would go on opening night and wait until the reviews came out. Rogers had moved on because Hart had been drinking too much and was no longer a reliable partner. In this scene, Rogers talks with Hart at the party. Hart's trying to convince Rogers to collaborate on a satirical musical a about Marco Polo. Rogers is played by Andrew Scott. Ethan Hawke as Hart speaks first.

[Ethan Hawke]

I mean, Marco Polo's gonna be a show about joy, but a hard earned joy, an unsentimental joy.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

Something wrong with sentimental.

[Ethan Hawke]

What is too easy?

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

Oklahoma's too easy. The guy actually getting the girl in the end is too easy. You've just eliminated every successful musical comedy ever written, Larry.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's too easy for me.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

Did you hear the audience tonight?

[Ethan Hawke]

Yes.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

1600 people didn't think it was too easy. You tell me 1600 people are wrong.

[Ethan Hawke]

I'M just saying, you and I can do something so much more emotionally complicated. We don't have to pander to what.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

I was going to.

[Ethan Hawke]

Pandering? No, I think I love Berlin. White Christmas is Panda. Well, I don't believe White Christmas.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

Well, maybe audiences have changed.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, they still want to laugh.

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

They want to laugh, but not in that way.

[Ethan Hawke]

In what way?

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

In your way. They want to laugh, but they also want to cry a little. They want to. They want to feel.

[Terry Gross]

Ethan Hawke. Welcome to Fresh air. And congratulations on all the new work you've been doing. I've been really enjoying it. You said that making Blue Moon stretched you and the director, Richard Linklater, to, like, the. The boundaries of your abilities. What made it so hard for you and so different?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, first off, I guess the emotional complexity. I mean, there's the verbiage. Larry Hart is at this opening night party, and it's kind of like he feels if he ever stops talking, he's going to be shot and killed. And so he just cannot stop talking. So there was the amount of text I had to learn. But then there's the complication. He's incredibly. What is it? It's called the correlation of opposites. He's two things simultaneously all the time. He is incredibly jealous, and he's incredibly happy and proud of his friend. He's gay and in love with a woman. He's the most diminutive, smallest person in the room, and he's the biggest personality in the room. The whole experience of making it, I felt I was being asked to play two things at the same time, which is, of course, why I want to do it. It was wonderful and it was like the way real people are. But it's challenging. Every now and then you do, you bump up against a part that presses you to the wall of your ability. And you know, you can never be as good as the part is demanding of you. And that's a kind of thrilling spot to be in.

[Terry Gross]

So you're playing someone who thinks that their height, their hair, makes them really ugly and unappealing. Plus, he's gay and he has to hide that from the public, the people.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, it was illegal in 1943. Yeah, he does have to hide it.

[Terry Gross]

No, absolutely right, Right. So in a way, talking all the time is a distraction from all the things that he thinks are unappealing about him. And he's also very short. I think he's like five feet or under. You're pretty tall and you had to have a comb over for it, which is Literally not attractive. So you had to feel very much not like yourself.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, it was interesting. I was being directed by a man who's directed me, and this is our ninth film collaboration. So he knows every trick in my toolbox. And he was really asking me to disappear. He wanted. He just wanted me to be Larry Hart. And so, I mean, the man has spent years of his life editing my performances. So anytime he would see me, he would say, I saw you, I saw you, I saw you.

[Terry Gross]

And he was, I saw you, Ethan Hawke, and not Larry Hart and not Larry.

[Ethan Hawke]

And so the physical things are kind of, you know, they're kind of easy, they're superficial. Ultimately, if they don't unlock the soul of the man, right, Anybody can shave their head and do a comb over, but it was really the soul of a person who is loathing themselves and at the same time thinks they're smarter than everybody else. And his intellect is his only power. His pride in his work is his only self worth, and that is being stripped from him on this night. I mean, imagine if you only worked with one other person for 25 years and you achieved incredible heights and this person now doesn't want to work with you anymore. So it's truly heartbreaking for him because I think he's smart enough to know that the world is changing. We're in the middle of the war, the Jazz Age is being left behind, something new is happening and he's not going to be a part of it. And he feels a titanic plate shifting, you know, and he's, he's being sent away to Antarctica or something. I mean, that's what I think he feels.

[Terry Gross]

So I'm under five feet tall and I might be shorter than he was. So how did playing somebody short and having to look up at people. What did you learn about my life at my height?

[Ethan Hawke]

The world is so stupid in the way that it imagines power and intelligence and grace and, you know, tall and handsome, tall equating power, tall equating authority. It doesn't. Beauty is as beauty does. We all know this. It was as a male, I think it's even more different because I remember there was a man who was really helping me with the height and how to achieve it. We were kind of trying to do it with old school stagecraft. And he had built a floor that he could put his feet through and then wear his shoes on his shins. So he really appeared a foot shorter than he did. And his wife, who they've been together for decades, came to him and was looking at him. She's like, wow, if you were this tall, I wouldn't love you. And it was really a heartbreaking experience for him that he really wanted to share with me. That confused him deeply about how what we associate as sexuality, what we associate with strength. And it did unlock for me, I mean, just even all my normal ways of flirting. I have all these scenes with Margaret Qualley, who's a beautiful young woman, and she would just giggle at everything I say and pat me on top of the head. And it was extremely patronizing. And you had to find a different set of tools to get her attention. So I don't know that I could speak intelligently about it, but I could feel it in my guts.

[Terry Gross]

So you've played at least two brilliant but self destructive artists. Chet Baker, the great jazz trumpeter and singer who had several addictions, and Larry Hart, who died of complications from drinking way too much. It's not uncommon for talented artists. Oh, and River Phoenix, who you worked with, died of an overdose.

[Ethan Hawke]

Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yes, right. It's not uncommon for talented artists to have a self destructive side or a need for the kind of medication that they believe, you know, the addiction provides for. Do you feel like you understand why those two things so often go together?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, first off, I think humanity experiences this. I think we see it in public figures and artists because we're in the public. More issues of addiction are complicating and destroying so much of society. And so many people are in pain and these are painkillers. And I think the artistic community to be driven to create usually is motivated by some sensitivity and extreme sensitivity. I don't know, I have seen it my whole life. You mentioned river and that was extremely complex and upsetting thing that happened in my early 20s, his passing. And then middle age brings its own demons, which happened to my friend Phil. And it's, I think part of my collaboration with Rick and part of why I love working with Richard Linklater is he has so much joy in his life and he didn't when I was young and becoming friends with him. He was one of the first artists I met who really didn't see self destruction as a romantic. Well, to draw from. He had so much joy and love of life. But I, I do enjoy playing these parts because I do understand it. I grew up with so many men of the theater who were in so much pain and they were some of the most ferociously intelligent and kind and good people that were full of so much self loathing and When I first read the script, I just. I was desperate to play this guy.

[Terry Gross]

Who, Larry Hart?

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So River Phoenix, who? You made your first movie with him, the Explorers. So he died at age 23 in 1993 of an OD of morphine and cocaine. Was that a warning for you? Like, don't touch this stuff? Were you ever seduced by the relief of addictive drugs?

[Ethan Hawke]

I don't know. What flashes through my mind is when river and I were doing the Explorers. We both were. We both loved James Dean, and James Dean smoked Camel unfiltered cigarettes and we thought it would be cool to go out. And we stole a pack of Camel Unfilters and went out in this field and smoked three of them. And river turned green and he vomited. And when he passed, I thought about that moment that we all have different bodies and some of us can press the limit and our bodies can handle it and we can learn from it, and some of us turn green. And river was very sensitive, extremely sensitive. And it's part of his genius. I don't know. Does that make sense to you, what I'm trying to communicate? And some of us get second chances, and some of us. Our DNA is hardwired to protect ourselves. And some people don't have those guardrails. And I don't understand it. And I know that the answer is you have to know yourself. And yes to your question, was it a warning? Of course it was a warning. But we all get warnings. And I sometimes think a lot of it is accident. And I wish I remember when we were 23, I felt that we had lived. And now here I am, I'm about to be 55 years old, and I've lived twice as long as River. River didn't get to be a dad, and river didn't get to have the experiences of the roller coaster ride, of the ups and downs of a profession. I almost feel sadder about his death now because I'd love. I would love to see him. I'd love to see what he thinks now. He was such a political young man, and he was such an idealist. I would love to see what that looked like at 55. And I would love to see the artist that he would be and the art he would have made. I can't believe that Phil's gone. Half of why I act sometimes is to impress those two men that I was friends with. You know, I mean, I. I think about them all the time when I'm performing because they were the gauge by which I judged Myself. And. And they still are.

[Terry Gross]

I want to ask you about time. The film Boyhood was shot directed by Richard Linklater, who just directed you'd. In Blue Moon, it was shot over 12 years. And as this family, as the children and the divorced parents age, the actors aged. So that was a long term commitment. Blue Moon takes place on one evening. It's practically shot in real time. So making movies that play with time like that, especially boyhood, over 12 years, I'm wondering if that has shaped your understanding of time, what time means to you.

[Ethan Hawke]

It has so much. And you're not even mentioning the before trilogy.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yes, no, that's right.

[Ethan Hawke]

18 years.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And each movie was separated by a few years.

[Ethan Hawke]

Nine years.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I think it's part of the hook of Linklater and I's friendship is we both have a obsession with it. Think about it all the time. All the time. It's omnipresent in our awareness. And I think that acting. Dead Poets Society came out and I started being sent scripts. I'm 18, 19 years old and now I'll be sent a script. And it says, Billy, age 19, skateboarding down the street. And I always think, oh, that's my part. It's just the way I read script. It takes me a while to realize, oh, Billy's father, age 55, gruff and weathered around the edges. I'm like, oh, that's me. I'm forced always to look at that. I remember watching the first screening of Boyhood with Patricia Arquette and I were sitting next to each other and she.

[Terry Gross]

Co starves with you.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah. And she leans over to me and says, wow, they're growing up and we're aging. And it's funny, I don't know where that turn happens where we stop thinking of ourselves as growing. But acting forces you to be aware of time. Cinema naturally does it. The stories I gravitate to, particularly in the films with Richard Linklater, seem to be. I often think Father Time is the main character of all the films we've done together.

[Terry Gross]

And you made what, nine of them now?

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So how is getting older affecting your relationship with the passage of time?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, you're just hitting me with some real lightweight questions.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, it's arresting for anybody, you know, I think when you get over the age of 50, it is. I feel it very powerfully. I feel a desire to work. I don't know if you feel that, but I feel. I'm aware of how much of the road has already been walked. And I'm very conscious of I find myself often thinking, how old was Jeff Bridges when he did True Grit? Am I older than him now? Am I younger than him? How old was Peter Weir when he directed Dead Poets Society? I'm older than he was now. I thought he was an old man. I'm very aware of how many more years I might have to contribute, and I don't like wasting time anymore. I'm very aware of how many people mentored me and cared for me, and am I doing that for others? Am I meeting my responsibilities as a citizen, not just as a father, which is obvious and omnipresent in my life. Those questions are on my mind all the time. Then there's this other voice, which is, am I enjoying my life? Because I do want to enjoy it, too. And how much of this work that I'm obsessed with is eroding my sense of play and joy and spontaneity and living and being in the moment. And it is strange, the older you get. I have no awareness of wisdom. I only have awareness of how many things I thought I understood that I don't understand. And more questions come in the door. And that's kind of exciting. What do you think?

[Terry Gross]

Well, about aging. I mean, there comes a moment when you realize you're not the young person anymore, and then how people look at you changes as you get older.

[Ethan Hawke]

You know, I'm an actor, right? So I have a talent agent. And I remember being really proud of myself at one time. I noticed I was the youngest client they had, and I was kind of proud of that. And now often I'm the oldest person in the room. You know, I did this Movie, Black Phone 2, and there's all these young people around, and they're looking at me and talking to me as if I know something, and I'm not positive that I do.

[Terry Gross]

Well, we have to take another break, so I'm gonna reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ethan Hawke, and among the new things he's starring in are Blue Moon, about lyricist Larry Hart, and the Sterling Harjo take on film noir, which is called the Lowdown. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

I want to ask you a little bit about your documentary you made a few years ago called Seymour An Introduction, and it's about the pianist and composer Seymour Bernstein, who gave up a career as a touring pianist giving recitals. But he grew just really disillusioned with the life he was leading, performing, all the time, traveling. And he gave it up after years as a performer and decided that his calling was teaching as a private teacher to very talented pianists. And he's also very wise. You met him at a dinner party and you'd asked him a couple of pretty profound questions, and he gave you interesting answers. So this documentary is all about him, and he was, I think, in his 80s when you made it, and he's in his late 90s now.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So I want to play an excerpt of a conversation that you had with him that's in the film, and you tell him you're entering the second half of your life and thinking about what you want out of this next phase.

[Ethan Hawke]

I'm looking at myself and I'm saying, you have the second half of your life ahead of you. If it's not for material gain, if I don't have a specific religious calling, what is it that I'm living it for? The whole system of life is geared to make you think about success, often doing my art the best and equating that with any kind of financial success. They're just wildly at odds with one another. Of course they are. And so they can even get in the way of one another. Yes. Some of the most successful things I've done have been some of the worst things I've done. And sometimes I think that just playing life more beautifully is what I'm after, but I don't know how to do it. But don't you do it through acting? Well, I don't know. What would you? I want to do it through acting. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So are art and success getting closer for you with films like Boyhood, Blue Moon, the streaming series Reservation Dogs, and the Lowdown, the Good Lord Bird They Are.

[Ethan Hawke]

And listening to it right now, I realize that movie was kind of my midlife crisis. And, you know, I could really credit Seymour for redirecting my life, giving me permission to be the grown person I aspire to be, to give me permission to go after that. Some of the things you just mentioned are my favorite things I've done. And there has been more unity between myself and what I'm putting forth into the world in this period of my life. And I'd be lying if I didn't say, you know, that movie is also the first film I worked on with my wife. We start a little mom and pop production company. And something about working with her kind of united these disparate parts of my brain where I wasn't compartmentalizing work and home life anymore, that they were becoming. One thing.

[Terry Gross]

I want to mention something that is also something that you mentioned to Seymour Bernstein, the pianist. You told him you had stage fright. And talk to him a little bit about that. Under what circumstances did you have stage fright? Was it just literally on stage because you've also done a lot of theater, or was it also on screen when you could, like do a retake?

[Ethan Hawke]

Because of his warmth, I felt unashamed to say to him, what do you do about stage fright? Because I was about 40, I'd been a child actor, and I had so much confidence about acting. And both on film and on stage, I was having anxiety attacks and panic attacks. And I really had no mechanisms to deal with it or understand it. And this man just smiled at me and looked at me really intensely. And he said, oh, this is very good. This is very exciting. You're about to have a breakthrough. And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, well, you're finally understanding and respecting. You should be nervous. Your anxiety is your friend. Let it be your friend. This is guiding you towards excellence and you don't need to see this as a problem at all. And he was very profound about loving yourself and making friends with your demons and being proud of the fact that you care.

[Terry Gross]

But you said you thought when you had that stage fright that you were going to die. Why was a death that you thought would be the final symptom of stage fright as opposed to just humiliation and never working again?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, that's a very interesting question. And that really is the essence of why I think I wanted to play Blue Moon. When your entire self worth is wrapped up in your work. That was the real struggle. I didn't have any self worth besides my work. And so it was death. If I went out on stage at Lincoln Center, a place that I have the utmost respect for, an establishment that I view as significant, if I humiliate myself performing the greatest writer in the English language, William Shakespeare, then I'm not an actor. And if I'm not an actor, then I'm dead. I'm not anybody. That was the way my thinking was at the time. So of course I'd be scared. And so I needed to start rooting self worth. That wasn't just about being an actor, you know, And I felt that way very much, I think, when I read the script for Blue Moon. Oh, wow. Larry Hart. If he doesn't have his music, he's nothing. He's absolutely nothing. He's a ghost. He's dead. If he cannot save his work, then he's gone. And no wonder. You'd start to hit the bottle and you'd hit it hard.

[Terry Gross]

I mean, he literally died several months after.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah, he did.

[Terry Gross]

You tell a story, I think it's in John Lahr's profile of you in the New Yorker about how one of the ways you overcame the stage fright was the story of when you screamed on stage. Would you tell that story? I'll preface this with a story that Seymour Bernstein told you about a violinist he knows who was afraid he'd drop his bow during a performance.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yes, exactly.

[Terry Gross]

And he conquered that fear by intentionally dropping it during a performance. And it didn't ruin his life.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah. And I think the story that I told John Lahr must have been, I had an incredible moment on stage. So I'm out on stage and I'm doing this monologue, and I just kind of decided to take a moment and look out at the audience. And I saw my director. I made eye contact with him, Jack o', Brien, and I admire him wildly. He's a genius theater director. And then I looked to the left and there was Tom Stoppard, just one of my favorite human beings on the planet Earth. And I was thinking to myself, what an amazing moment this is to be in Lincoln center with these people I wildly admire. And I knew it was one of the last times I was going to be doing the show, and it was certainly the last time they would be there. And as I having this kind of wonderful moment, I realized I had no idea where I was in the monologue. I couldn't remember if I'd begun the monologue or whether I was finished with the monologue or if I was in the middle of it and I just completely froze. And finally I just screamed. I mean, I really did not know what else to do. And I went into the monologue from the beginning like a hurricane. I went into it and I came off stage just wildly embarrassed. I was like, what happened? What happened? And after the show, Stoppard told me it was wonderful the way you started again. I said, well, it wasn't really wonderful. I mean, it might have come across that way. But I started realizing that if you are actually in the moment, you actually can't do anything wrong. You really can't. It's gonna be fine. Cause you're gonna be living. And it's this desire to be perfect that's stifling.

[Terry Gross]

But getting out of the moment and thinking about who was in the audience that made you lose your train of thought as your character. That's what made you forget where you were in the monologue, right?

[Ethan Hawke]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Well, it's time to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Ethan Hawke, and he stars in the movie Blue Moon about Larry Hart. And he also stars in the streaming series the Lowdown. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[Announcer]

President Trump says he wants to make America skilled again, but tradeswomen worry that his crackdown on DEI will undo decades of progress.

[Terry Gross]

You cannot look at the workforce of the construction trades and say they've taken DEI too far.

[Announcer]

This weekend on the Sunday Story, what role is there for women in the skilled trades renaissance? Listen now to the Sunday story on the up first podcast from npr.

[Ethan Hawke]

This year's Grammys featured historic wins for Bad Bunny and Kendrick Lamar, lavish performances and occasional chaos. And it was a night of speeches that reflected this moment in America. Listen to a recap on pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

On NPR's Wildcard podcast. Oprah on the art of being alone. Are you good at being alone?

[Ethan Hawke]

Ooh, my God, I'm a master at it. Tell me more. I cherish it. I revel in it. I can't wait to be alone.

[Terry Gross]

Watch or listen to that Wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube @NPRWildcard. So when you were talking to Seymour Bernstein about the second half of your life and what do you want from it? And you were saying, like, if I don't have like a religious calling and. Yeah. And I was wondering, why did you mention religious calling? Did you ever think that is what you wanted?

[Ethan Hawke]

Yes And I think I was, as a young person, I was thinking that a certain, oh, discipline, religious discipline could lend order to my life. You know, whether I loved a lot of the great Catholic writers and I love a lot of the great Buddhist writers. And I was constantly hoping that their discipline could work for me and give me guidance and direction and orientation in my life. But I kept struggling with it, and I would struggle to stay on that path. Finally, it was my oldest daughter who realized, dad, you gotta stop struggling. You have your path. Your path is the arts, and your discipline is manifest in your life as an actor. That is your religious calling. That sounds pretentious, perhaps on a radio show, but it's even true in a scary movie or in a silly noir set in Tulsa. You're celebrating people and life and humanity and what we're up against, and that has faith attached to it.

[Terry Gross]

You were raised as Episcopalian. Your mother taught Sunday school. And you actually went on missions over the summer. And in an earlier interview we did, you described your missionary work not as proselytizing, but as, like, free labor, helping people build latrines and build roofs. And you did that in Kentucky and West Virginia and the back haulers. And one summer, you went to Haiti and worked with Mother Teresa's order in the House of the Dying. Can you describe the House of the Dying? What was it?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, it was during the, you know, AIDS crisis in Haiti in the late 80s. And the nuns, the order there, they just had a home where you could die with peace and grace and dignity. Mostly all men could come and die and be bathed and clean. And these women were incredibly dedicated to their faith and really inspiring. My mother was going through a phase where she was really worried I was turning into a superficial little snot who cared about, you know, whether his shirt was an Izod or Ralph Lauren or something like that. So she took me there. She's a really inspiring and fascinating woman. Of course, when you're growing up, you don't see that, you know, your parents are just your parents, and they're annoying. But her faith was very important to her, my father's, too. And they gave me that, a longing for that. And they showed me how it can open up and deepen your life and give you something to live for that's bigger than your wants and needs and desires. And it lent itself to the life of artists, the life I pursued very well.

[Terry Gross]

I want to talk with you about the Lowdown. I'm really enjoying this. And you play an investigative journalist for a kind of underground Paper. I can't remember whether you correct the person, whether he says, it's a magazine.

[Ethan Hawke]

Long form magazine. Long form magazine, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

He calls it a paper. And you say, no, it's a long form magazine. And you are very, very eccentric. You investigate power and corruption in Tulsa, where this is set. And you also break all the rules of journalism. You get beaten up a lot. And unlike the tough guys in a lot of hard boiled film noir and in novels, like when you get beaten up, like you hurt and you're crying out in pain.

[Ethan Hawke]

I cry.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And so I want to play a short scene. This is toward the beginning of the first episode. So you're investigating a powerful, wealthy guy who runs an investment company, has been buying up a lot of black owned businesses. And you're wondering, like, what's this about? Tracy Letts play as that guy, You've walked into his office dressed way too casually for a meeting like this, and you start looking around the room, picking up things, examining them, sniffing the carafe of brush brandy, and being intentionally sarcastic and rude. So let's pick it up with the clip.

[Ethan Hawke]

Nice to meet you in person. Yeah. We do have a lot of other business. Yes, I'm sure you do. This place is so fancy. I never even been back here. Yeah, just some of the perks. Yeah, I should have gone in the investment firm business, huh?

[Andrew Scott (as Richard Rodgers)]

Instead of rare books.

[Ethan Hawke]

But you are a journalist too, though, right? Or some kind of writer? I'm a true historian. Sorry, say again? I am a Tulsa true story. A truth story. What exactly is a true story? I'm glad you asked. I read stuff, I research stuff, I drive around and I find stuff, and then I write about stuff. Some people care, some people don't. I'm chronically unemployed, always broke, but let's just say that I am obsessed with the truth.

[Terry Gross]

Hmm.

[Ethan Hawke]

How about that?

[Terry Gross]

So, Ethan Hawke. The series is inspired by film noir, but it's also kind of a satire of the genre. Your character talks tough, but, as I said, gets beaten up a lot. Are you a fan of noir novels? You know, hard boiled novels or film noir?

[Ethan Hawke]

I am. I love it. I mean, I'll never forget the first time I saw Chinatown or the Long Goodbye, or the Big Lebowski, for that matter, or some of the other Philip Marlowe, Bogart. You know, I love all that stuff. And, you know, one of the things I love about genre films is you can use the genre to be entertaining and you can fill the story up with substance and message and ideas, but it's still entertaining because you're inside the genre.

[Terry Gross]

So what was your take on this character? Like, what did you model him on?

[Ethan Hawke]

I loved this character. It's been a funny year for me because Blue Moon is probably the most different I've ever pushed myself outside the framework of my own identity. And then the lowdown is I just relate to Lee. He's Quixote chasing windmills, running into propellers. He's a dreamer and an idealist and self centered and doesn't see his own blind spots and he's a moron. And I just completely relate to him. And he can say the right thing all the time and do the wrong thing all the time. And out of that obviously comes a lot of humor. I kind of saw Lee as a guy who's frozen in 1996 or something. I'm still wearing the same pants I wore back then. I got the same belt buckle I wore back then. He still listened to the same music he listened to back then. And I admire him. And I also identify with his shortcomings. And Sterlin is really fun to work with. I had a great time on Reservation dogs. We got along like a house on fire. And I can't remember a time I just ran with the character like I did with this one.

[Terry Gross]

Well, it's time to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Ethan Hawke and he stars in the movie Blue Moon about Larry Hart. And he also stars in in the streaming series the Lowdown. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[Announcer]

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[Terry Gross]

You've done several movies about music. You have a new documentary that hasn't come out yet about Merle Haggard. You did a documentary about the pianist Seymour Bernstein. You played Chet Baker in a theatrical film. I made the film Blaze, yes, about Blaze Foley. Yeah. So when did you become really interested in music? And were you ever in a band?

[Ethan Hawke]

I don't remember life without music. My father's a great pianist and I'm.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, what kind of, what kind of music does he play?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, when I Was little. He used to play a lot of Scott Joplin, and I loved to lay under the piano and listen to him play these rags. And I don't know why, but music has always been that place I go to. I don't know. You put on a good record and everything is fine. Everything's gonna be okay. I also think that I love acting. Acting is my job. And to understand acting, I've gotten into directing, and to understand acting, I've gotten into writing. But music's one thing I can't really do. I mean, I try, but I'm not good at it at all. But I love it. And my inability to do it well has increased my fandom, my geekdom, my absolute hero worship of the people who can do it well. And I think I really love being a fan.

[Terry Gross]

Why did Merle Haggard make such a good subject for a documentary?

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, it was coming up on the last presidential election, and I had this realization that no matter who won, half the country was going to be absolutely despondent. Then I found myself thinking a lot about Merle Haggard and how much he crossed the boundaries between left and right and what a free thinker he was. You know, he spent the first nine years of his professional stardom as the new Woody Guthrie. And then he wrote this funny song called Okie from Muskogee that was basically a really, really funny song, asking the left wing to consider how the right wing might feel. And the left wing responded with absolute vehemence and felt betrayed and were angry at him. And then he was claimed by Nixon and touted as the, you know, voice of the silent majority. And then he went on and wrote songs about civil rights that weren't released and promoted because the label weren't excited by that or they were worried he was going to lose fans. And he wrote pro immigration songs, and those were ignored. And then slowly, the right wing lost interest in him, their spokesperson. And he just was always himself, and he didn't follow anyone else's bandwagon. And he was a humanist. And I thought he might be a great person to revisit right now, as our country is so kind of team oriented and not speaking to each other, and that was the pull. Not to mention he's a genius songwriter and he's one of the great American songwriters. And I feel that his star has been receding in popular culture. And I kind of wanted to remind everybody about what a legend he was.

[Terry Gross]

Well, we should end with some music. Do you have a preference?

[Ethan Hawke]

You know, why don't we. Why don't you pick your favorite version of My Funny Valentine, Chet Baker, let's do Chet.

[Terry Gross]

Very good. Always happy to do that. Ethan Hawke, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And again, congratulations on all the work you've been doing so many good things.

[Ethan Hawke]

I'm tired after all the questions. I love your show and I love npr and I really appreciate what you guys do, and I'm just thrilled to be on your program. So thanks for having me.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, thank you for saying that. It's so great to have you. Ethan Hawke is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as lyricist Larry Hart in the film Blue Moon. He also starred in the FX streaming series the Lowdown, which has been renewed for a second season. Our interview was recorded in November.

[Singer (My Funny Valentine)]

My funny Valentine, sweet comic Valentine, you make me smile with my heart. Your looks are laughable, unphotographable, yet you're my favorite work of art. Is your figure less than Greek? Is your mouth a little weak when you open it to speak? Are you smart? But don't change your hair for me, not if you care for me. Stay, little Valentine.

[Terry Gross]

Stay.

[Singer (My Funny Valentine)]

Each day is valentine's day.

[Terry Gross]

Tomorrow on FRESH air, the succession story inside the Murdoch media empire, which includes Fox News and the Wall Street Journal. We'll talk with journalist Gabe Sherman. He's covered the Murdochs for nearly two decades and has a new book about the succession fight, the Outcome, how it Broke the family and its impact on the world. I hope you'll join us. FRESH air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Roberto Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.