Julia Lochtev (3:15)

Hi. Thank you. I'M so excited to be here.

Tonya Mosley (3:18)

Well, you know, we're talking to each other just days after two American journalists were arrested by federal agents for covering a protest in Minnesota. And the first thing. The first thing I thought about was you and this documentary and how unnervingly timely it is that we are speaking right now. What was your reaction when you first heard the news?

Julia Lochtev (3:41)

I mean, it's my reaction. As I keep hearing news after news after news every day. It feels like there is something to bring the story home for Americans, where it almost feels like there's. I hate to put it this way, but it's strangely like there's Easter eggs in the film that become more and more relevant every day, whether it's arrests of journalists, obviously. I mean, small throwaways, like somebody talks about the end of comedy shows, or there's a moment where Russia's largest, oldest NGO memorial, which is a human rights organization that was dedicated to preserving the memory and researching cases of political repress going back to Stalinist times, but also now, and they're shut down by the courts. And the judge uses the explanation of, why should we, the victors in World War II, have to be ashamed of our history? And so then I hear Trump talking about the Smithsonian and saying, why can't we talk about only the pleasant things in our history? Why do we have to talk about things like slavery and this constant echo where one thing after another every day, it feels like something in the film starts to resonate in a different way.

Tonya Mosley (5:02)

Here for the U.S. take me back to 2021. You are home here in the United States, but you're watching something unfold in Russia. Independent journalists are being labeled foreign agents by the government. And at that point, there were, I think it's. It was around 25 people on the list. What made you think at the time, I need to get on a plane? There is possibly a film here.

Julia Lochtev (5:28)

Yeah, this is a film where the conception to execution was just a matter of a couple weeks. And I think the only. Really, the only delay was me getting a tourist visa to Russia because I'm an American citizen and not a Russian citizen. So, as you mentioned, I was born in Russia. I came to the US As a kid, but I still followed, you know, news of what was happening in Russia. And there was this New York Times story that I think the headline was something along the lines of Russian journalists getting named foreign agents and fighting back with humor. And I think the humor was also part of what caught me in the beginning, you know, because it had this photo of these two very familiar to me looking girls that could have been walking down the street in Bushwick, frankly, you know, and you know, with mom jeans and some cool T shirts, except they happened to be foreign agents. And Russia was declaring these individual journalists as well as media foreign agents. And it had just started. So, for example, like, if I was declared a foreign agent, then I would have to put this on everything, you know, not just my articles, but you'd have to introduce me. This is Julia, a foreign agent. If I put a cat picture on my Instagram, I'd have to put, this is by a foreign agent, you know.

Tonya Mosley (6:43)

And it was more than just I'm a foreign agent.

Julia Lochtev (6:45)

It was.

Tonya Mosley (6:45)

It's like a paragraph in big bold letters, depending on what the platform that you're on.

Julia Lochtev (6:50)

Absolutely. I mean, it was this very legalistic. Exactly. The summary was I'm a foreign agent, but it was in legalistic terms saying like this has been created and. Or distributed by a source of mass media foreign agent carrying out the function of a. It was in very legalistic terms. And for example, if I was a foreign agent and you were introducing me on this show, you would also have to state this because if you didn't say I was a foreign agent, you'd get a fine. And eventually, I mean, everyone was trying to figure out, what on earth does this mean for us? And there were so few people, as you said, it's kind of hard to imagine because right now there are hundreds, hundreds of foreign agents. But at the time, it was really new. And I had a friend, Anna Niemzer, who was a host at what was Russia's last remaining TV channel, TV Rain. If you saw the Navalny film, for example, much of the footage you're seeing is TV Rain. It's the kind of thing where everybody takes Alexei Navalny. Yeah, yeah, Alexei Navalny. It was this kind of center of the opposition. And my friend Anna had just started this incredible show called who's Got the Power? Where under an authoritarian government. She was focusing on people who were trying to make lives better for someone, whether it be people with disabilities, the homeless population, focusing on press freedoms, but various activists and civil rights leaders who were trying to create a different kind of politics under this government. And we thought it was quite disturbing, you know, when a society forces members of the society to mark themselves everywhere as suspect, not really belonging to this society as foreign agents. But it had just really started and we said, okay, let's try to make a film about this. Let's see where this goes.

Tonya Mosley (8:45)

And it was all happening so fast once you arrived there, though, that you. You shot most of it on your iPhone. I mean, you really said, okay, I really need to get as close to this as possible. And you pulled out your iPhone and we're talking hours and hours over a span of time. Just using your phone primarily.

Julia Lochtev (9:04)

Yeah. I had initially had this idea that I would have a cinematographer because, I don't know, I thought, you know, I would shoot it in a normal way, like the way you're supposed to shoot documentaries, you know, with a little bit of a crew. But then as soon as I arrived, it was so clear that the best thing that I had was my access to people and also kind of how comfortable people seem to feel with me. You know, I speak native Russian, but I also, I don't know, it's just one body in the room and people really opened up to me. And also people are used to being filmed with a phone. Like, the presence of phones is not a big deal. I did have a little. Eventually got a little lens on my phone and a little microphone, but it was just really me with the phone. And I think that so affects how people behave because they just. There's an intimacy to the film. And that's what you see is it's not like a normal documentary with interviews and, you know, it's a slice of.

Tonya Mosley (10:05)

Life in real time that we're seeing in this moment. You know, Julia, I think there's an assumption for some listeners that Russia has always, to a certain extent, been a closed society when it comes to the press, that independent journalism was never really possible there. But that's not exactly true, right? I mean, can you give us a picture of what the media landscape actually looked like before this crackdown?

Julia Lochtev (10:31)

No, absolutely. It's, you know, there was. It's kind of amazing before this crackdown, what was possible. There were reporters, there were a lot of reporters focusing on corruption, you know, government officials who were channeling huge amounts of money towards their mistress's yacht or things like this. You know, it's all interconnected. And they were writing about this out in the open and obviously writing about social issues and human rights out in the open. And the fact that all of this was possible is kind of unimaginable now because, you know, at that point, Russia had initially invaded Ukraine in 2014. Obviously there's been a low scale war happening there, but nothing of the kind of war that has been happening since February of 2022. Bombing Kyiv, tanks rolling in. The kind of war that we've been Seeing was utterly, utterly unimaginable when I started filming. And it was utterly unimaginable until the morning it happened. And so we're watching for most of the film, these characters, and we know what happens. We know Russia starts this full scale invasion and. But they don't, they don't know what's about to happen. Because what ends up happening is in that first week of the full scale war, all that independent journalism becomes impossible in Russia. And all of these characters try to work to live another day to just keep reporting the truth. I mean, it's things like calling the war a war is illegal in Russia.

Tonya Mosley (12:09)

And then it became to a certain point where it wasn't even just about the journalism anymore. It was about their lives and essentially, essentially fleeing for their lives because there was no way that they could do their work or have a life in Russia after the war started.

Julia Lochtev (12:26)

So I was there filming during the first week of that full scale war. And every day they were trying to figure out, how do we get to report tomorrow? And there were all these restrictions being put on them. Like the Russian communications authority said they had to only report what is confirmed by the Ministry of Defense. And they would find all these ways around it. It, you know, like they would be showing an apartment building bombed in Ukraine. And then they would say, you know, after they would say, we are obligated to say that the Russian Ministry of Defense says it is only bombing military targets when clearly we have just been shown that they are bombing an apartment building, not a military target. And then they would find all these other ways to try to again, just to live to another day to be able to report the truth to Russians. And they came out with a statement against the war. All of them were extremely against this and horrified. But they kept getting more and more threats. Eventually all these media would get shut down. And they were facing this choice of literally do we go to work tomorrow or do we go to the airport? And they decided to go to the airport because the logic went if they keep working, they really risked being thrown in jail. And if you're in jail, you're not much use to anyone as a journalist. You can't report from jail. And so they made the choice to leave so they could keep reporting.

Tonya Mosley (13:57)

Take me to your frame of mind as a filmmaker because here they are grabbing carry ons, no idea where they're going, headed to airports. What was going through your mind about your own safety as you captured this chaos?

Julia Lochtev (14:14)

It's interesting because I think I thought about my own safety more When I first started coming to Russia, and then during that first week of the full scale invasion, I became monomaniacal. The only thing I could think of was my footage and getting it out and making sure I was capturing things and making sure I was filming. I mean, Brittney Griner had just gotten arrested, but I was like, well, I'm not a famous basketball player. It's that thing you do where you logically try to explain to yourself why you'll be okay. And I really just. I was staying in this hotel that was literally surrounded. Like, every time I walked out, I had to walk past this wall of riot police and helmets, you know, so I would just kind of keep my head down and go to wherever I needed to go to film. And most of the time I was filming in private places. You know, people. The whole film takes place in their.

Tonya Mosley (15:08)

Living rooms, in newsrooms, in their cars. You were in the car a lot of the time?

Julia Lochtev (15:13)

Exactly. The film takes place where we spend our lives, which is, you know, at work, at home, and on the way from one to the other, and at other people's homes. It's really where people spend most of their lives. So I met them where they were. But where I felt most at risk, honestly, was every time I went to their workplace, especially in that first week, because many of these newsrooms, you know, I mean, some of them were bugged. There were journalists at some of these outlets that had been killed. A lot of them were taking great risks. There'd been searches. And so especially during that first week of the full scale war when there was so much pressure, and I was afraid every time I was there, I thought, anything can happen at any moment while they're sitting there trying to report on the news. But then I sort of thought, you know what? They're coming to work here, they're taking that risk. This is the risk they're facing every day just to come and report on the news. So I just need to shut up and film.

Tonya Mosley (16:18)

I want to go back a little bit because I actually want to talk about the journalists themselves. I mean, you mentioned how they were young journalists, 20s and 30s, most of them women. They seem to be highly accomplished, highly skilled. What were their backgrounds? Anya, for instance, tell us a little bit about her. She's sort of the protagonist in this, the person that you're following throughout. And then you have these intersecting journalists that you're also checking in with.

Julia Lochtev (16:49)

Well, Anya starts out as really like almost our guide into the world. She was the one person I knew, and it kind of feels like you have this brilliant friend in Moscow. You go to visit her and then she introduces you to all these other friends. She's also the oldest of our characters, even though she's also quite young. But she is just incredibly talented. She's a novelist, she's a writer now she's an archivist, a journalist. She just is so multi talented and had worked across different things. And you know, she comes from this intellectual Moscow family where her father was a Solzhenitsyn scholar and she comes from this. And then some of the characters are super young. Our youngest character, Ksusha, she's 23. You know, she's not that far out of journalism school, to be honest, because, you know, part of how this works is we very specifically did not try to choose like the most famous, the most illustrious journalists in Russia. We wanted to have this be about just ordinary peoples who were trying to create a better world in this society. And so a lot of the characters are super, super young. You know, two of them talk about how they were in first grade when Putin came to power. She says this beautifully. She says, well, as long as I've known there was such a thing as a president, because when you're three, you don't really know what a president is. It's been Putin. A bunch of the characters are super, super young. I mean, they're constantly referring to Harry Potter as a way of understanding Putin's Russia. They watch Gossip Girl, they hate, watch Emily in Paris. They live in a world that's very connected to our. And a lot of them just went straight from journalism school. And many of them decided at a super young age, like at 14, 15, they decided, this is what I want to do. But now, of course, all of them are now in exile. None of them can really go back to Russia, can step foot in Russia. And a lot of them have criminal cases against them. Russia does this thing where it arrests and sentences people in absentia. And so, for example, there's a character, she appears only on air in part one, but she becomes actually one of the leading characters in part two. Her name is Lyra. She's actually the youngest one. When we start seeing her, she's 22. She's hosting this New Year special. She says she decided to become a journalist at 15. Her mom wants her to become a banker, but now she's an anchor on tv. Rain in exile, they're operating out of Amsterdam. She is an extremist terrorist according to Russia. And in Russia, that's not just an insult like the way Trump throws it around, it is a legal status. She's been declared an extremist terrorist. She's also been charged in absentia for spreading fake news about the Russian army because she talked about war crimes in Bucha. And several other TV Reign anchors also have been charged and sentenced for the same thing.

Tonya Mosley (20:09)

Our guest today is filmmaker Julia Lochdiv. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR. On NPR's Wildcard podcast, Melinda French Gates on seeing her ex husband, Bill Gates name in the latest Epstein Files.

Julia Lochtev (20:26)

For me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up, right, because brings back memories of some very, very painful times in my marriage.

Tonya Mosley (20:36)

Watch or listen to that wild card conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube @NPRWildcard. On NPR's wildcard podcast, Oprah, on the art of being alone.

Julia Lochtev (20:47)

Are you good at being alone? Oh, my God, I'm a master at it. Tell me more. I cherish it.

Terry Gross (20:55)

I revel in it. I can't wait to be alone.

Tonya Mosley (20:59)

Watch or listen to that wild card conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube @NPRWildcard. Julia, the women, the journalists that you follow, they are continuing to live. They're into music, they're into fashion and dinner parties and dark humor, even with this threat hanging over them. What did you learn from them about how you keep fighting in the face of it?

Julia Lochtev (21:25)

Absolutely. They they keep living. And I think one of the things that's huge is community, and it's something that always played a role there. People live I always kind of say that Russian kind of. They live in hordes and communities. They're not solitary. They live in kind of you're constantly going to friends houses and people are gathering and somebody else will come over. And that is a huge part of what binds people together and keeps them strong and makes them able to do things. And there was a lot of energy in that. And I think community is huge. And there's a lawyer who speaks at a gathering. She says, you know, let joy and laughter also be a part of our resistance. And I think that's important. As, you know, they say, well, you know, Putin would like us to just curl up in a fetal position and cry, but we will continue to laugh and even as we're fighting. And I think generally dark humor is a huge, huge, huge role in this film and really a huge role in this film. I wondered if is it just cultural?

Tonya Mosley (22:34)

Yeah, I was just gonna say it feels very much cultural.

Julia Lochtev (22:37)

I mean, they've Had a century of dark things. And a lot of how it's been dealt with is dark humor.

Tonya Mosley (22:45)

Well, there's that one scene where one of the journalists, she's doing these. When you're deemed a foreign agent, you have to fill out these financial reports. Right. And she's filling out financial reports of her expenses, her disclosures to the Russian government. We're seeing her have to calculate things like her Netflix account and her cat food and all of those things. And there's real consequences to her not getting it right. Right. And she's making fun of it along the way. There's nothing to do but laugh to keep from crying.

Julia Lochtev (23:16)

No, absolutely. Because. Yeah, that's one thing we didn't mention. If you were a foreign agent, you also had to declare all your expenses to the government, so. Because you know that that pair of underwear that you bought yesterday is now supporting a foreign agent. And so they would have to just detail all their expenses to the government. And, of course, I mean, how can you not laugh?

Tonya Mosley (23:38)

I want to talk a little bit about joy as a subversion tactic. And you mentioned earlier how in deciding to go to Russia to film this, to document it, what really struck you was the. The comedy portion of it, how these journalists were using joy and music. This film is entirely in Russian, but I want to play a clip in this documentary, and then we can talk about it on the other side. This particular clip, there is a journalist who is performing on TV Rain, a song. Let's listen. That was a clip from my undesirable friends and Julie, I have a visceral reaction listening to it, not even knowing the words to the song. First off, can you tell us who that is and what that song is saying?

Julia Lochtev (25:00)

Oh, my God. That song is an incredible protest song. It's a band called Porna Filme, and it's one of the kind of greatest protest songs of contemporary Russia. And this was, I have to tell you, this was on tv reign, like, a few months before the war, this was out in the open in Russia. It's unimaginable now. Because what that song is saying is, this will pass. We live in this dark century, and yesterday's dictator will be a dead old man. And it refers to the original invasion of Ukraine in 2014. It talks about, like, you know, the doors of Lefortovo prison will be thrown open. It talks about people being arrested. It talks about, like. And one day, you know, all of this will pass. And it refers to all of kind of the crimes of Putin's regime and says, yes. There will be an awakening from this. And this is somebody singing this on tv. Rain. I can't remember if Kotlerov, the singer, I think he has now been charged. I mean, you kind of have a hard time keeping up with who has which crime charged. But I think he does definitely has criminal charges against him also in exile. I'm pretty sure he's been charged with fake news or discreditation of the army. I'd have to look up the exact charge, but it's all part of a continuum. And I mean, this song just I get chills when I hear it because it is the hope of so many people. And somehow they still hoped against hope that this would happen.

Tonya Mosley (26:33)

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Julia Lochtev. Her documentary film My Undesirable Friends, Part one last Air in Moscow and is about independent Russian journalists in the months leading up to and immediately after Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air. This message comes from Instacart. Everyone's familiar with the unexpected hosting panic, like when the big game party finally makes it out of the group chat. But you volunteered to host and suddenly you need snacks, drinks, dips, cups and all the other game day essentials. With Instacart, you can get all those groceries delivered in as fast as 30 minutes, one quick order for everyone. That way everything shows up right on time, making hosting easy and making it look like you had it planned all along. Download the Instacart app and get game day deals.

Julia Lochtev (27:28)

2026 marks the 100th anniversary of what we now celebrate as Black History Month.

Tonya Mosley (27:33)

So on Code Switch, we're reflecting on that journey.

Terry Gross (27:36)

Black History Month is a time for people to observe black history as a movement and a legacy that was about correcting the historical record.

Julia Lochtev (27:46)

Listen to NPR's Code Switch podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Terry Gross (27:54)

Americans are seemingly always worried about crime, even when crime rates are dramatically declining. And while politicians for both parties always vow to do something about it, President Trump has really leaned into it, taking.

Tonya Mosley (28:06)

Down the worst of the worst, getting criminals off the street, all of that is like linking crime and immigration.

Terry Gross (28:12)

Listen to Code Switch in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tonya Mosley (28:18)

Julie, I want to talk a little bit about your background. So you and your family, you come from Russia, you arrived here to the United States when you were nine. Take me back to that time period. How and why did your Parents choose the US to immigrate to.

Julia Lochtev (28:36)

Well, we left what was the Soviet Union then, not knowing what country we would go to at that point. You know, we left because we got permission to leave and got permission to come to the US as refugees. And then I had a very unusual experience where, you know, I did not grow up in Brooklyn surrounded by other Russian immigrants. But several months after we came to the U.S. my mom got a job at HP in Loveland, Colorado, which is pretty much halfway between Denver and Cheyenne, Wyoming. And so we moved there. And so, you know, the second half of my growing up was really in this smallish Colorado town.

Tonya Mosley (29:21)

I had the privilege of watching your first documentary, Moment of Impact, and it's about your father's car accident. You were 19 when it happened, and it is. It is moving. I couldn't take my eyes off the screen the entire time. What made you decide that this devastating thing that happened to your family would be the first story you told as a filmmaker?

Julia Lochtev (29:49)

So I had gone to film school thinking I wanted to make fiction. And I always kind of really think of myself in that way and have accidentally, it seems, made two documentaries now. But the first one, you know, when I started making the film, my dad, he was crossing the street between two garage sales and got hit by a car on April Fool's Day and ended up having severe brain damage for many years. And when I started making it, he was already in that state for eight years. And so it wasn't a state that changed a lot. Like when I say my dad was hit by a car, people say, did he live or die? And the only answer I can come up with is kind of neither. You know, he became suspended in this state. And it challenged me, my ideas of what is the worst thing that could happen, you know, because we are really used to these stories that are either a tragic death or a miraculous recovery. And that kind of makes sense. And this was neither. This was a kind of ongoing existence where very little changed from day to day. And I also, you know, it just challenged every single idea of what it meant to be human, to be alive, what one can expect in life. For me to really look at this, how do you. It's not something most of us expect to happen, you know, and yet it can happen.

Tonya Mosley (31:13)

You know, I was really meditating on the name of your first documentary, Moment of Impact, and this is no unique thought you've talked about this before, but it is. It does seem to be a through line through all of your work. I'm thinking about Day, Night, Day, night. It hinges on this anticipation of an explosion. And then there's My Undesirable Friends. And it captures these moments before the country tips into war. Why do you think you keep returning to these pivot points where everything seems to change? What do you think it is that you're trying to understand?

Julia Lochtev (31:49)

Oh, my God. I probably have to go to therapy for this. I have no idea. It is something. At some point, I remember some critic pointed this out, and they're like, all of your films seem to hinge on this pivotal moment that divides the before from the after. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess that's true. It's not something I have consciously done, but it's absolutely. It's kind of strange, isn't it?

Tonya Mosley (32:14)

Mm. There's this sequence that you feature in the film My Undesirable Friends right after. I think it was like, around February, end of February of 2022. So Russia invades Ukraine, and there's this sequence at TV Rain in those first few days where the journalists that you're following are watching the news hit in ways, because this is the time period when Western companies then start pulling out one after the other. So there are no Apple Stores, no more Nike, no more ikea. And then they realize that they have to leave as well. And you kept those cameras rolling. How did that feel in the moment when you started to see these bigger institutions say, it's time for us to leave as well?

Julia Lochtev (32:58)

Oh, it was all happening so fast. You know, my bank card stopped working, my credit card stopped working. It was like day by day, Russia was getting cut off from the world. And we have to. You know, that's something I keep emphasizing is that the Moscow you see in the film and the Moscow of these characters lives is not that different from New York or Paris. I mean, ideologically, yes, but, you know, they're used to a Zara store on every corner, an H and M. Right.

Tonya Mosley (33:26)

They're going to restaurants.

Julia Lochtev (33:28)

They love Matcha lattes. They like, you know, watch Netflix, constantly refer to it. You know, they take it for granted that there's an Apple store and an ikea. And one of them cracks a joke then, because obviously all these things are being shut down along with the press being shut down. The international stores are pulling out. And one of them is like, no, I think she says, she's like, no more Nike or Apple. We don't have a country anymore. Because these are all things they've started to take for granted. This is a very interconnected Russia for these characters. They've grown up in a very globalized world and of course now it's very, very different and it's familiar. I mean, I think that's what's striking is so many films we see about pretty much all films, to be honest. Like, pretty much every film I've seen about Russia. It looks like a very far away place. Like, it looks very. But you know, it looks like it has nothing to do with.

Tonya Mosley (34:34)

You see the old architecture, we don't.

Julia Lochtev (34:37)

Right. Or you see the old architecture or you go to some small town where, oh my go. These people are so weird. And the characters all seem so one step away from the Soviet Union. And these are characters you might know. I know that sounds really cheesy, but so many people have said to me, they're just like us. And it sounds ridiculous, but it is true that they are incredibly familiar to us and their world and their hopes are incredibly familiar to us. For example, how they feel about queer rights. I mean, they're like how most of my friends feel.

Tonya Mosley (35:18)

This film was your way of doing something and it's a film about Russia, but it also makes the viewer ask, what does it mean to be the opposition under a government that you oppose? What is your role? What can you do? And I want to know, what do you tell Americans when they ask you this question?

Julia Lochtev (35:39)

Ah, I wish I had some really great advice, I think. And yeah, it's absolutely a film about living under, you know, trying to do good. Under a government you oppose trying to do good when you don't get results, you know, honestly, and still trying to do that. And I think that's really important. You know, we are so used to measuring things in results and I'm probably spoiler alert, but this comes up in the second half. It's one of the most important moments for me in the second half is I got a video message from this character Edik, who we see getting, you know, we're waiting for him outside of a police station in Part one. He's a TV Rain anchor. He also happens to have gotten arrested in Navalny the film, but he's an anchor at TV Rain. And he sends me this really lovely message and he says, you know, I like the story of Sisyphus, but I don't think of him as a victim. I think he finds meaning in pushing the stone. And I think that's incredibly important. I think that's the lesson that if there is a lesson, I think it's the things that people say in the film. Let joy and laughter be part of our resistance, finding meaning and pushing the stone and not giving up, even when things seem rather hopeless.

Tonya Mosley (37:09)

Julia Lockdev, thank you so much for this documentary and for this conversation. Thank you, filmmaker Julia Lochtiv. Her documentary is called My Undesirable Friends. Coming up, jazz historian Kevin Whitehead reviews a new edition of Miles Davis Recordings. This is FRESH AIR. In 1965, Miles Davis led one of the all time great jazz groups with four younger players, including saxophone Wayne Shorter and pianist Herbie Hancock. But they rarely worked that year while Miles dealt with medical issues. But that December they recorded seven sets over two nights at the Chicago nightclub the Plugged Nickel. The complete recordings went unreleased for decades. Well, now comes a new addition. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead says the music is all over the place in the best way.

Julia Lochtev (38:05)

SAM.

Terry Gross (38:37)

Before they played Chicago's plug nickel with Miles Davis in 1965, drummer Tony Williams famously challenged his fellow sidemen to play anti music on the gig, the opposite of what a listener or even the other players might expect. They hadn't known they'd be recording live and they didn't clue in MILES but they went for it anyway. Sometimes two versions of the same tune might sound radically different. Tony Williams, who just turned 20, was the main instigator. Jazz drummers typically favor steady tempos, but Williams had other ideas on no blues. Pianist Herbie Hancock and bassist Ron Carter follow him all the way down. The players anti music stance pushed back against Miles Davis stale and limited live repertoire. The quintet had broken new ground on their current album, ESP, recorded earlier in 64, but on gigs they played only one tune from it, in simplified form. Mostly they did songs he'd been doing for years, some since the 1950s. Miles usually took the first solo with the rhythm section generally well behaved. After that, things might advance into more open territory with more floating rhythm. This is from Agitation, that lone tune from esp. Tony Williams is the band spark plug. But on the seven and a half hours of Miles Davis's complete Live at the Plug nickel, 1965, the star soloist is Wayne Shorter. On tenor saxophone. Miles could play sparsely, leaving lots of space. Shorter, by contrast, might overflow that space, as John Coltrane had with Miles. Shorter might echo Coltrane's drive, but had a more variable tone.

Julia Lochtev (41:09)

Sam.

Terry Gross (41:34)

Like that, that for five minutes. Then on the very next number, Wayne Shorter is relaxed, lyrical and full bodied, a total turnaround. It's the ballad When I Fall in Love. In truth, the quintet's weak link is Miles Davis. The trumpeter had been sidelined for most of the year with hip problems and sounds out of practice. Miles's greatness isn't about sterling technique, but the ingenious ways he works around his limitations. But here, when his lips tire, he may fall back on pure bluster. One static episode prompts belated heckling from Tony Williams. The band didn't always play nice for the boss. Miles's chops would soon improve just to keep up. And at the Plug Nickel, he does have his mom. The trumpeter starts his Green Dolphin street solo with his signature harmon mute stuck in the bell. When he takes the mute out, you can just hear him do it. The change in sound and attitude is so dramatic, it's like a different soloist steps up. Call it his own anti music turn.

Julia Lochtev (43:44)

SAM.

Terry Gross (44:13)

During their two week stand in Chicago, Miles neither called out his players on their antics, nor did he fire their mutinous asses. Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams had thoroughly modernized the leader's sound, and that quintet had a few excellent years and classic albums still ahead. And at the Plug Nickel, Miles Davis did show he could hold his own in such fast company company on stretched out versions of their set closing Theme. There, he and Shorter would improvise together as close as Miles had inched toward free jazz. Many, many bands would imitate this quintet over the decades, but precious few ever get as rambunctious as things got at the Plug nickel. Christmas week, 1960.

Tonya Mosley (45:22)

Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead is the author of New Dutch Swing why Jazz and Play the way way you feel. He reviewed Miles Davis Complete live at The Plug Nickel, 1965. Fresh Air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annmarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nakunde, Annabelle and Nico Gonzalez. Whistler Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley.