Grand Ole Opry At 100: Earl Scruggs & Loretta Lynn

Summary

Fresh Air: Grand Ole Opry At 100 – Earl Scruggs & Loretta Lynn

Date: November 28, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross, David Bianculli
Guests: Earl Scruggs (2003 archival interview), Loretta Lynn (2010 archival interview)
Special Theme: Celebrating the centennial of the Grand Ole Opry by revisiting classic interviews with two of its legendary members.

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Overview

This episode commemorates the 100th anniversary of the Grand Ole Opry by exploring the lives and legacies of two icons: bluegrass banjo pioneer Earl Scruggs and country superstar Loretta Lynn. Through archival interviews with Terry Gross, the episode goes in-depth on their music, innovations, and personal journeys that mirror the evolution of country and bluegrass within Opry history.

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Segment 1: Earl Scruggs – Bluegrass Innovator

Timestamps: 00:17–19:48
Interview originally recorded in 2003

Early Life & Musical Origins

• Depression-era Upbringing: Lost his father at age 4; Scruggs’ family “worked from daylight till dark” on the farm before he himself moved into a factory job.

  “On the farm you work from daylight till dark, and the factory you work eight hours. So I thought that was great.” —Earl Scruggs, 02:52

• Self-Taught Style: Had no radio as a child, learned banjo from his father at home and played traditional tunes with his brother.

  “As far as the style of banjo that I play, nobody had played it before me...I had a three finger roll. Later been called Scrugg style.” —Earl Scruggs, 03:21

Developing the ‘Scruggs Style’

• Three-Finger Picking: Details the mechanics of his innovative banjo technique:

  “It’s a little misleading...say three fingers. It’s actually two fingers, middle and index finger and your thumb.” —Earl Scruggs, 04:29

• Musical Epiphany: Discovered his unique way of playing during an aimless, dream-like session in the 'front room' at home.

  “It was like having a dream and wake up, you’re actually playing the tune.” —Earl Scruggs, 05:30

Breakthrough with Bill Monroe and Creation of Bluegrass

• Transforming the Bluegrass Boys: Scruggs’ joining in 1945 was pivotal in creating the bluegrass sound.

  “He just did the type tunes that would make the banjo sound good...nobody had heard that kind of a banjo picking. So it caught on real fast.” —Earl Scruggs, 06:35

Founding Flatt & Scruggs / 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown'

• Life with Bill Monroe: Grueling travel; constant touring in a car, long hours, suitcases as home.

• Lester Flatt: Initially just bandmates, later partners after both left Monroe, forming the Foggy Mountain Boys.

  “We never had talked about starting the show ourselves...Lester turned in his notice...he said, why don’t we get on a radio station...and try it as a group ourselves.” —Earl Scruggs, 10:36

• Writing 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown':

  “That’s just a simple song that I probably wrote in 10 or 15 minutes...but nothing like 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown.'” —Earl Scruggs, 11:47

• Film Fame: Warren Beatty contacted him about a tune for “Bonnie and Clyde” but ended up using the original Mercury recording of 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown.'

  “He said he didn’t want me to write anything because he’d found a tune that he thought fit what he wanted…” —Earl Scruggs, 12:10

Opry and Media Presence

• Early Radio: Describes grueling schedules and the importance of live radio—even daily shows at 5:45 AM.
• Martha White Sponsorship: The band's commercial jingle became so popular it was even requested at shows; Scruggs sings it on air.

  “Now you bake bright with Martha White, goodness gracious, good and light Martha White for the finest biscuits, cakes and pies…” —Earl Scruggs, 15:24

Instruments & Legacy

• The 'Earl' Banjo: Gibson named five signature models after him; Scruggs is loyal to his original, decades-old banjo.

  “I’m playing a banjo that I’ve been playing since back in the late 40s, I guess, early 50s.” —Earl Scruggs, 18:22

• Attachment to Instrument:

  “It produces the sound that my ears are looking for...I feel at home with it when I take it out of the case.” —Earl Scruggs, 19:16

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Segment 2: Loretta Lynn – Country’s Storyteller

Timestamps: 22:23–42:20
Interview originally recorded in 2010

Humble Beginnings & Reluctant Start

• First Song, First Hit: Loretta’s “Honky Tonk Girl” was her songwriting debut, penned in 20 minutes on a $17 guitar her husband bought for her; says she would not have pursued music without his push due to extreme shyness.

  “I was too bashful. I wouldn’t get out in front of people…if your husband didn’t say that’s what you should do?” —Loretta Lynn, 24:27

• Songwriting Process:

  “I just sat down with my guitar...I was leaning up against the old toilet out there...and I sat there and wrote 'Honky Tonk Girl' and 'Whispering Sea.'” —Loretta Lynn, 24:54
  “I figured, well, if they can write, I can too. So I just, hey, I’m going to tell a story. And that’s what I did.” —Loretta Lynn, 25:05

Life Before and After Fame

• Hardship: Cooking and cleaning for 36 ranch hands while raising four children by age 24.

  “I cleaned and cooked for 36 ranch hands.” —Loretta Lynn, 26:39
  “Life was hard.” —Loretta Lynn, 26:53

• Grand Ole Opry Debut: Handled first appearance as if she was still singing at home, to keep nerves in check.

  “I just got on there with my guitar and I sang...I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I wouldn’t have been able to have done it.” —Loretta Lynn, 27:25

Honest Songs, Inspired by Real Life

• Songwriting Evolution: By her 1966 hit “Don’t Come Home A Drinkin’ with Lovin’ on Your Mind,” she felt experienced.

  “When I wrote 'Don’t Come Home and Drinking,' I knew I could write because I’d had quite a few on the charts by that time.” —Loretta Lynn, 28:35

• Marriage: Says her late husband is reflected “in every song” in ways big and small.

  “Still is. I mean, if I write a song, he’s in there somewhere.” —Loretta Lynn, 28:48

• Direct Inspiration:

  “Well, sure. If a man drinks, he’s going to come home drinking. He liked drink.” —Loretta Lynn, 28:58

Mentorship from Patsy Cline

• Fashion and Friendship: Patsy Cline advised on stage attire (“get out of the jeans”), but left performance style for Loretta to develop herself.

  “She taught me a lot how to dress...I’d get in the back seat and put on my dress. Then I’d take the dress off and go back into my jeans.” —Loretta Lynn, 31:03
  “I think it’s best for every artist to learn on their own...I don’t think anybody else can teach you that.” —Loretta Lynn, 31:24

Trailblazing Lyrics and The Pill

• Breaking Taboos: “The Pill,” recorded in 1972 but released in 1975, addressed birth control head-on—controversial in country circles.

  “This old maternity dress I’ve got is going in the garbage. You’ve set this chicken your last time because now I’ve got the pill.” —Loretta Lynn, 33:36

• Autobiographical Impact:

  “Well, I sure didn’t like it when I got pregnant a few times. You know, it’s hard for a woman to have so many kids...Yeah, I was a little angry.” —Loretta Lynn, 34:43

• Personal History: She had six children and miscarried three, learning about birth control only later in life.

  “Well, if I’d have had it, I’d have used it...back when I was having all the kids, we didn’t have birth control pills. Or if they did, I didn’t know anything about them.” —Loretta Lynn, 36:31
  “When I got pregnant, you didn’t even know the word...We didn’t call it pregnant. Back in Butcher Holler, there was a lot of things we didn’t know.” —Loretta Lynn, 36:48

Later Years & Artistic Renewal

• Collaboration with Jack White: In 2004, she released the 'Van Lear Rose' album, produced by Jack White, who was thrilled to finally work with her.

  “He says, well, how about me coming being the produce? I said, well, why not? That’s how we got together.” —Loretta Lynn, 37:35

• Songwriting Approach:

  “Well, you know, I don’t like to talk about the way I write songs. I just let people hear and know what I’m talking about.” —Loretta Lynn, 38:35

Coping with Loss

• Husband’s Influence and Grief: Her husband’s death in 1996 left a void—he was her motivator and believed in her voice.

  “He always kept me moving. And if it hadn’t been for him, I wouldn’t have been singing, period, because he thought I could sing.” —Loretta Lynn, 41:00

• Marriage Realism: Their often turbulent relationship was, to Loretta, simply real:

  “We had a. I think we had a relationship. We fought one day and would love the next. So I mean, to me, that’s a good relationship. If you can’t fight and if you can’t tell each other what you think, your relationship ain’t much anyway.” —Loretta Lynn, 41:46

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Earl Scruggs on bluegrass roots:

  “That was long before anybody had tagged it as bluegrass. It was just country music.” (08:34)

• Loretta Lynn on the Opry debut:

  “If I had have [thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry], I wouldn’t have been able to have done it.” (27:25)

• On living and losing:

  “I’m not famous. I’m just me.” —Loretta Lynn (37:14)

• Loretta Lynn on marital honesty:

  “If you can’t fight and if you can’t tell each other what you think, your relationship ain’t much anyway.” (41:46)

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Musical Highlights

• [02:00–02:24] “Feast Here Tonight” – Earl Scruggs, Doc Watson, Ricky Skaggs
• [07:32–08:22] “Bluegrass Breakdown” – Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys, Scruggs on banjo
• [13:37–14:16] “Foggy Mountain Breakdown” – Original recording, Flatt & Scruggs
• [23:10–24:06] “Honky Tonk Girl” – Loretta Lynn
• [29:14–30:15] “Don’t Come Home A Drinkin’ (With Lovin’ On Your Mind)” – Loretta Lynn
• [35:16–36:33] “The Pill” – Loretta Lynn
• [38:55–40:35] “Miss Being Mrs.” – Loretta Lynn with Jack White

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Final Thoughts

This celebratory episode underscores how the Grand Ole Opry has shaped—and been shaped by—pioneers like Scruggs and Lynn: artists whose personal grit, singular musical voices, and candid storytelling both forged new musical paths and brought real-life stories to a national audience.

For those new to bluegrass or country, this Fresh Air episode offers a vibrant, firsthand introduction to two of its most formative figures, their music, and their often humble, hardscrabble paths to the spotlight.

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For more:

• Explore Opry performances by Flatt & Scruggs and Loretta Lynn
• Check out Loretta Lynn's “Van Lear Rose” (produced by Jack White)
• Listen to classic “Foggy Mountain Breakdown” and “Honky Tonk Girl” recordings

Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.

[David Biancolli]

I'm David Biancooley. 100 years ago today, the Grand Ole Opry began with a performance on the Alabama radio station wsm. We're going to mark that anniversary with performances by two country artists who were members of the Opry. We begin with the great bluegrass musician Earl Scruggs, who perfected the three finger style of banjo picking that became standard in bluegrass. Along with guitarist Lester Flatt, he was half of the duo responsible for such bluegrass standards as Foggy Mountain Breakdown and the theme to the Beverly Hillbillies. In 1945, Scruggs joined Bill Monroe's band the Bluegrass Boys, the band that virtually invented bluegrass. He made his first appearance on the Grand Ole Opry that same year with Monroe's band, which included lester Flatt. In 1948, Flatt and Scruggs left Monroe to form their own group and became one of the most popular acts in country music. Their hit Foggy Mountain Breakdown became even more famous when it was used on the soundtrack of the 1967 movie Bonnie and Clyde. In 1969, Earl Scruggs formed his own band, the Earl Scruggs Revue with his sons Gary and Randy. Earl Scruggs died in 2012. Terry Gross spoke with him in 2003. He had just released a CD called the Three Pickers, which featured Doc Watson and Ricky Skaggs. Here's a song from that album, Feast. Here.

[Earl Scruggs]

There's a revenant log and ain't got my dog.

[Terry Gross]

How will I get him my. No, I'll get me a briar and I'm twisting his hair that way.

[Earl Scruggs]

I'm getting my nose.

[Loretta Lynn]

I know, I know, I know.

[Terry Gross]

I sure know that way I'm getting my nose.

[Earl Scruggs]

I'll get me a briar and I'll.

[Terry Gross]

Twist it in his hair and that.

[David Biancolli]

Way I'll get in my. No, I know.

[Justin Chang]

Hey, I hear that, man.

[Terry Gross]

Earl Scruggs, welcome to FRESH air.

[Earl Scruggs]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you grew up during the Depression. Your father died when you were 4. How did your family make a living when he died?

[Earl Scruggs]

He was a farmer also. So I stayed on the farm until I got old enough to get a job in the factory. And on the farm you work from daylight till dark, and the factory you work eight hours. So I thought that was great.

[Terry Gross]

Right who did you hear play banjo before you started playing yourself? I mean, I've read that there was no radio in your house when you were growing up.

[Earl Scruggs]

No.

[Terry Gross]

So who did you hear? How did you hear them?

[Earl Scruggs]

We had a banjo in our home. My father played the old style banjo. So I had a banjo there and my brother Horace had a guitar. And so we just started playing just old tunes that we'd heard before. And then a little later we got a Sears Roebuck radio and started listening to some, mainly the Grand Ole Opera and some programs like that. But as far as the style of banjo that I play, nobody had played it before me. And the only thing that is different from my playing, from what I'd heard is I had a three finger roll. Later been called Scrugg style. But it seemed to help me to play slow tunes as well as a tempo tunes. Most of the bands you're playing in the old days were hoedown type tunes, up tempo tunes.

[Terry Gross]

So could you put into words what your style of picking is? The three finger style?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, it's just what you hear, it involves, it's a little misleading. Say three fingers. It's actually two fingers, middle and index finger and your thumb. And it's kind of. Some of the rolls will go. If you number your thumb 1, index, 2 and your middle finger 3. It's like a 1, 2, 3 roll over and over. But to do a tune, it's like trying to say every word with the exact same amount of syllables in the word. You've got to alternate the roll some to make the, the tune flow.

[Terry Gross]

Since you didn't have a radio when you were very young and you didn't have a record player, so you were just like hearing, you know, musicians who may have been living where you were. How did you come up with your style of playing, with your style of picking?

[Earl Scruggs]

I guess the old days you have one main room you have, you take company to when they come that you don't use every day. So I was in what we call the front room with a banjo one day and I was in a mode where if somebody had asked me what was I thinking about, and I bet you've been in that mode yourself, you couldn't tell them what you was thinking about. You just kind of sitting there and I was picking the banjer and I was playing a tune that still plays today called Rubin. And when I realized what I was doing, I was playing the way that I play now. It was like having a dream and wake up, you're actually playing the Tune. So that was the motives then and what I was doing when I learned exactly what I'm doing today.

[David Biancolli]

Now.

[Terry Gross]

You joined Bill Monroe's bluegrass boys in 1945. This was the group that basically created the sound that's become known as bluegrass. When you joined the band, could you hear that something different was happening there?

[Earl Scruggs]

Oh, yeah. Nobody had this style banjo in the group. And he just did the type tunes that would make the banjo sound good. So it was a good shot to start with because he had Grand Ole opry exposure. And that gave me a lot of exposure when I went to work with him. And it got immediate attention because nobody had heard that kind of a banjo picking. So it caught on real fast with the public.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear one of your recordings with Bill Monroe from 1947? This is one of the famous ones. Bluegrass breakdown with Bill Monroe and mandolin. Lester Flatt guitar. My guest Earl Scruggs banjo recorded in 1940.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

It's.

[Terry Gross]

Bill Monroe and is bluegrass boys recorded in 1947 with my guest Earl Scruggs on banjo. What was life on the road like with Bill Monroe?

[Earl Scruggs]

It was terrible. If I hadn't been 21 years old and full of energy, just came off the farm and thread mill where I could, you know, I thought to do an hour show on the road was a pushover compared to eight hours in the mill or from sun up to sundown on the farm. And music was my love. So to get in to a group that had good singing and playing and Bill had that especially good singing and had good fiddle player. So I went in and it just seemed to make a full band, especially for that style of music. That was long before anybody had tagged it as bluegrass. It was just country music.

[Terry Gross]

But why did you hate traveling so much with the band?

[Earl Scruggs]

Why did I hate was because we did it 24 hours a day practically back then. There was two lane highways and he traveled in the 41 Chevrolet car. And we'd leave after the Opry on Saturday night and maybe work down south Georgia about as far as you could get for Sunday afternoon show and on down to Miami someplace for Monday or Tuesday and worked till about Thursday and started working back to Nashville. So it was just. You'd only be in Nashville long enough to do the Grand Ole Opry and to get a change of clothes and pack your suitcase and head out again. I was single at the time, so I was living in a hotel. And I had one suitcase. And so I had to really work on it to keep clean clothes forever. Night doing A show on the road.

[Terry Gross]

Now, it was in the Bill Monroe Band that you met guitarist Lester Flatt, who became your long musical partner. What were your first impressions of him when you first heard him play and sing?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, I liked his singing and his playing fit in good with that style of music. And we palled around together, room together. And so we did that for two and a half, three years. And that's when really we never had talked about starting the show ourselves. But I had made up my mind that I was going to just get off the road. So I worked two weeks notice and when I started to leave that night, Lester turned in his notice and while he was working his notes, he gave me a call over North Carolina and said, why don't we get on a radio station over close to your home and try it as a group ourselves. So that's how we got started with the Foggy Mountain Boys.

[Terry Gross]

Now you started recording, you and Lester Flatt started recording in I think it was 1948 and for the first couple of years you recorded for Mercury Records. During that period you recorded, recorded what became one of your best known songs, Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Is there a story behind the song?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, that's just a simple song that I probably wrote in 10 or 15 minutes. And I've written several other tunes and had some pretty big hits, but nothing like Foggy Mountain Breakdown.

[Terry Gross]

How did Foggy Mountain Breakdown end up being used in the movie Bonnie and Clyde?

[Earl Scruggs]

He called and wanted me to write a tune for the who called Warren Beatty, who wrote and starred in the show. And so he called back, I think I'm quoting this exactly the way it was in a few days. And he said he didn't want me to write anything because he'd found a tune that he thought fit what he wanted. See, we recorded that tune before they got what I say, good equipment. I mean just plain everyday microphones in the radio station and Noah to start making tunes sound fuller or something. It was just raw material. Well that, I mean it didn't have no echo chamber or anything on it. So that's what Warren Beatty heard in that tune. So he didn't want to try to record another tune because he thought that the equipment that they had then probably would give it a more modern tune than what we had recorded, which turned out to be Foggy Mountain Breakdown and the sound that we got then.

[Terry Gross]

So you're saying that he used the original recording and he didn't want you to re record it?

[Earl Scruggs]

Yes, he took the Mercury recording and that was it.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear that original recording of Foggy Mountain Breakdown. And this is Lester Flatt and my guest, Earl Scruggs.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Sam.

[Terry Gross]

Now you mentioned when you got off the road with Bill Monroe, what you wanted to do was a radio show. And first you did one in Bristol, then in 1953, you ended up doing a radio show in Nashville at a station there. Yeah, and it was, I think a 15 minute program every morning at 5:45, which is pretty darn early to have to perform.

[Earl Scruggs]

We'd come in at 2 o' clock and go to bed and get up at 4 to try to get awake enough to do a live radio program. But that was your bread and butter in those days. By that I mean we made our real, really our living by the road work that we did. We'd go out and do shows and charge admission and get a percentage of that and also some flat rate too. But that just put us to working in better, bigger auditoriums and bigger crowds.

[Terry Gross]

The show is sponsored by Martha White Flower. Yeah, and I understand the jingle for that became pretty well known and you were even requested to play it at some of your concerts. I've never heard it. How did it go?

[Earl Scruggs]

Now you bake bright with Martha White. Goodness gracious, good and light Martha Wyatt for the finest biscuits, cakes and pies Gets Martha White Self rising flour. And the group says the one all purpose flour. Get Martha White self rising flour. It's got hot Rise. Hot Rise was actually a baking soda that went into the bread that makes bread rise. You know that yourself, being a lady. But I thought it was pretty cleverly written.

[Terry Gross]

So did you get like a lifetime supply of free Martha White Flower?

[Earl Scruggs]

Oh no. Oh no. They would probably have done that. But I got a lifetime of work with Martha White. It was a great company and they helped us just more than I could total up, I guess.

[Terry Gross]

How long did that show last?

[Earl Scruggs]

I wish my wife was in here. She could tell you better than me. But it lasted for a lot of years and we went into television. Television came in about 1955. So they put us. We started transcribing the morning show, radio show. And we'd sleep late, but we'd have to do a live television show at a different city each night. The reason I say live radio, television, that was before they had cameras to film you with. So we'd have to. We'd leave 4:00' clock Monday morning to go to down in Georgia. Had two cities in Georgia, Atlanta being one. And let's see, Wednesday was Florence, South Carolina. Thursday was Huntington, West Virginia. And Friday was Jackson, Tennessee, down West Tennessee and Saturday by at WSM television and do the Grand Ole Opry on Saturday night. And if we were working on Sunday, we were free until 4 o' clock Monday morning. We started that 2,500 mile tour again.

[Terry Gross]

There is a Gibson banjo that is named for you. It's called the Earl. It has a portrait of you on it and your signature. Is it a lot of fun to have a banjo that's dedicated to you that bears your name and likeness?

[Earl Scruggs]

It is. As a matter of fact, they're making five different models with my name on it. From the plain banjo, which they're all basically the same banjo, what runs up the cost is like gold plating and engraving and things of that nature.

[Terry Gross]

Do you play one of those Gibsons or do you play something else?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, yeah, I play a Gibson banjo.

[Terry Gross]

Mr. Is it an Earl?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, basically it is. I'm playing a banjo that I've been playing since back in the late 40s, I guess, early 50s. But it's still, they're still making basically the same banjer they were making way back there.

[Terry Gross]

When you say you're still playing the same banjo, do you mean it's literally the same instrument or that it's the same model? Same banjo, same banjo. So do you have to get it redone occasionally?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, the only thing you're going to wear out on the banjo is the head. The head used to be skin, but now it's plastic. They will wear out on you and the strings. Outside of that, you play one for thousand years unless you got it broke in some way.

[Terry Gross]

Now what do you love so much about the Spanjo? Is it just a sentimental attachment or is there something special about the sound?

[Earl Scruggs]

Well, it produces the sound that my ears are looking for. Maybe I've just gotten used to it, but I like the sound that I get out of that particular banjo. I feel at home with it when I take it out of the case and start when you start with another instrument, they all have their feel and playing the same instrument, you know what it's going to feel like when you take it out of the case and start to perform.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

[Earl Scruggs]

Been my pleasure.

[David Biancolli]

Bluegrass banjo player Earl Scruggs speaking to Terry Gross in 2003. He died in 2012. We'll hear from another country artist, Loretta Lynn after a break and Justin Chang reviews the new documentary My Undesirable Friends, Part one. Last Air in Moscow. I'm David Biancooli and this is fresh.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Sam. Foreign.

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[David Biancolli]

We're marking the 100th anniversary of the Grand Ole Opry. One of its biggest stars was the beloved and influential country singer Loretta Lynn. She was famous for her singing, her songwriting and her life story, told in the 1980 film Coal Miner's Daughter. The film was adapted from Lynn's memoir, which described how she grew up in poverty in eastern Kentucky, became a wife at age 15, and after having four children, started writing songs and performing. She made her debut on the grand ole Opry in 1960 with her first song and first hit, Honky Tonk Girl. Terry spoke with Loretta Lynn in 2010. Lynn died in 2022. Let's start with Lynn's Honky Tonk Girl.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Ever since you left me I've done nothing but wrong Many nights I've laid awake and cried we once were happy My heart was in the world but now I'm a honky toned girl.

[Announcer]

So.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Turn as you walk the way about and feel my glass of wool I cry I've lost everything in this world and now I'm.

[Terry Gross]

Now the song we just heard. That's the first song you wrote. It was your first record released in 1960. You say you wrote it in 20 minutes on a 17 guitar that your husband bought for you. That's true because he thought you sang well and you wrote a song because he told you to. Do you think you ever would have written or performed if your husband didn't say that's what you should do?

[Loretta Lynn]

No, I wouldn't have because I was too bashful. I wouldn't get out in front of people. I wouldn't, you know, I was really bashful and I wouldn't, I would have never sang in front of anybody.

[Terry Gross]

So when you wrote Honky Tonk Girl with absolutely no songwriting experience, how did you approach writing a song?

[Loretta Lynn]

You know, I just sat down with my guitar. I was outside. In fact, I was leaning up against the old toilet out there in west coast, in Washington state.

[Terry Gross]

Did you say the toilet?

[Loretta Lynn]

The old toilet, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Okay.

[Loretta Lynn]

And I sat there and wrote Honky Tonk Girl and Whispering Sea.

[Terry Gross]

So what made you think of the story that you tell in Honky Tonk Girl?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, I think I probably listened to a bunch of people, you know, their songs and stuff, and I figured, well, if they can write, I can too. So I just, hey, I'm going to tell a story. And that's what I did.

[Terry Gross]

And had you hung out at Honky Tonks or did you know them from songs?

[Loretta Lynn]

No. When I first started writing, my husband got me a job at this little bar and me and a still player and my brother, he played the fiddle and sang. So we sang together and so we really had a good time, you know. And I wrote Honky Tonk Girl and Whispering Sea during that time.

[Terry Gross]

So you were doing some performing?

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah, I just had started. In fact, I had never sang in front of anybody till my husband pushed me out there, you know, I'd never been out and sang for anybody.

[Terry Gross]

But at home you sang?

[Loretta Lynn]

I rocked the babies to sleep. And in Kentucky when I was growing up with my sisters and brothers, we all sang and rocked the babies to sleep, you know, but that was about as far as we ever did, you know.

[Terry Gross]

So when you recorded your first single, Honky Tonk girl, you were 24. You'd already been married for 11 years because you got married when you were 13 and you already had four children. Do I have that right?

[Loretta Lynn]

I had four kids.

[Terry Gross]

Uh huh. And the twins came a little bit later.

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah, the twins come later.

[Terry Gross]

What was your life like as a wife and mother before you started recording?

[Loretta Lynn]

It wasn't easy. Me and my husband both worked. I took care of the farmhouse. I cleaned and cooked for 36 ranch hands.

[Announcer]

Wow.

[Loretta Lynn]

And yeah, before I started singing and so singing was easy. I thought, gee whiz, this is an easy job.

[Terry Gross]

Wait, so you cooked and cleaned for 36 ranch hands and had four children.

[Loretta Lynn]

Uh huh. Sure did. Paid the rent on the old house that we lived in, and that's what I did to make the rent. Yeah. It wasn't easy, let me tell you. Life was hard.

[Terry Gross]

So when you made your first appearance on the Opry, which was the same year that you recorded Honky Tonk Girl, Right. You weren't used to performing on such a prestigious stage in front of an audience like that. Did you know how to perform on stage in a place like that?

[Loretta Lynn]

Not really. I just got on there with my guitar and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know, I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I wouldn't have been able to have done it. You just pretty well gotta figure. Well, you know, this is something like you do every day, right?

[Terry Gross]

It's so much like what you do every day.

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So the next song we're gonna hear is a song that you first recorded in 1966, Don't Come Home A Drinkin' with Lovin on your Mind. And this is a great song. But first I want to hear the story of how you wrote it. You'd already had about six years of songwriting experience behind you. You probably were no longer leaning against the toilet when you wrote this.

[Loretta Lynn]

I was probably. Dude fixed me a little writing room at this time. Out in Goodlysville Dew is your husband, your late husband? My husband, yes. And he's the only one I've ever had. And so he fixed me this little writing room and I'd go out there and I'd write. And this is one of the songs that I wrote was Don't Come Home Drinking with Loving on youn Mind.

[Terry Gross]

And at this point, did you feel like I know how to write a song?

[Loretta Lynn]

Oh, yeah. When I wrote Don't Come Home and Drinking, I knew I could write because I'd had quite a few on the charts by that time.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you've said that your husband is in every song that you've written in a large way or in a small way?

[Loretta Lynn]

Still is. I mean, if I write a song, he's in there somewhere.

[Terry Gross]

Were you thinking of him when he wrote this song?

[Loretta Lynn]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Would he come home after drinking like that?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, sure. If a man drinks, he's going to come home drinking. He liked drink.

[Terry Gross]

Was this song intended to send him a message at all?

[Loretta Lynn]

Not really. I probably told him many times I didn't have to sing about it.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, well, let's hear the song.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

All right.

[Terry Gross]

Don't Come Home A Drinkin' recorded in 1966 by Loretta Lynn, and it was a number one country music chart.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Well, you thought I'd be waking up when you came home last night. You'd been out with all the boys and you ended up half time. But liquor and love they just don't mix. Leave the bottle or me behind and don't come home a drinkin with lovin on your mind. No don't come home with drinkin with lovin on your mind Just stay out there on the town and see what you can find. Cause if you want that kind of love well you don't need none of mine. So don't come home a drinkin with lovin on your mind.

[Terry Gross]

Now when you started performing, Patsy Cline was your mentor until she died.

[Loretta Lynn]

But, you know, she hadn't been in the business that long. When I come to Nashville, she'd only been singing two or three years and. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So she must have really related to what you were going through.

[Loretta Lynn]

Oh, yeah, we talked a lot.

[Terry Gross]

What were some of the things that she taught you that really helped you a lot? Things relating to, you know, from clothing to performing style to dealing with the music industry. Yeah, go ahead, you know, with the.

[Loretta Lynn]

Style and everything that I, that I was, you know, I was in blue jeans and a T shirt or blue jeans and just a western shirt. And she taught me a lot how to dress.

[Terry Gross]

And what did she tell you about how to dress?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, she told me to get out of the jeans. You know, of course I would wear them till we get to the radio station. Then I'd get in the back seat and put on my dress. Then I'd take the dress off and go back into my jeans and wait till the next radio station and then I'd go back into my dress again.

[Terry Gross]

And did she give you any advice about performing?

[Loretta Lynn]

Not really. I think she wanted me to learn that on my own. And I think it's best for every artist to learn on their own what they gonna do on stage and how they act. And I don't think anybody else can teach you that.

[David Biancolli]

We're listening to an interview Terry GROSS Recorded in 2010 with Loretta Lynn. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH air.

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[David Biancolli]

Let's get back to Terry's interview with country singer Loretta Lynn. Terry asked her about one of her controversial songs, the Pill.

[Loretta Lynn]

We have a lot of them that says it like it is, so that's really, I guess not to talk about the way it is.

[Terry Gross]

This has some lyrics that I think really were controversial in some country music circles at the time. And the lyrics include, this old maternity dress I've got is going in the garbage. You've set this chicken your last time because now I've got the pill. I'm tearing down this brooder house because now I've got the pill.

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So the song sounds autobiographical in some ways. I'm not saying that you are necessarily angry in the way that the character in the song is angry, but you had six children.

[Loretta Lynn]

I had six kids. I lost three.

[Terry Gross]

You lost three?

[Loretta Lynn]

I lost three.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Loretta Lynn]

I was about five and six. Well, it wasn't, you know, I lost them before they were born.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, so you had six and lost three others. Mm. Wow.

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

That's a lot of pregnancies.

[Loretta Lynn]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Stating the obvious, did you share the song's anger?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, I sure didn't like it when I got pregnant a few times. You know, it's hard for a woman to have so many kids and. Well, at the time I guess I had four and then Got pregnant and had, you know, with the twins. But, yeah, I was a little angry.

[Terry Gross]

Let's hear it. And this was released in 1975, recorded in 1972. This is Loretta Lynn, the Pill.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

You and me and dined me when I was your girl. Promised if I'd be your wife. You'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor Bill, I'm tearing down your brooder house. Cause now I've got the pill all the time. All these years I've stayed at home while you had all your fun. And every year that's gone by another baby's come. There's gonna be some changes made right here on Nursery Hill. You fed this chicken your last time. Cause now I've got the p. This old maternity dress I've got is going in the garbage. The clothes I'm wearing from now on won't pick up so much yardage.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you've said that you never even used the pill as birth control.

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, if I'd have had it, I'd have used it.

[Terry Gross]

I see.

[Loretta Lynn]

At the time. But yeah, because, see, back when I was having all the kids, we didn't have birth control pills. Or if they did, I didn't know anything about them.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you write that there's a lot you didn't know about when you got married in 1947. And you say you didn't.

[Loretta Lynn]

Didn't know anything about sex either. Did I?

[Terry Gross]

No. You say you didn't know anything about sex or even pregnancy. You say when you got pregnant, you didn't even know the word. Is that right?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, I don't know. I guess we just called it having a baby. We didn't call it pregnant. Back in Butcher Holler, there was a lot of things we didn't know. A lot of things they still don't know.

[Terry Gross]

Back there, you probably had no idea you were ever going to become famous.

[Loretta Lynn]

No, never. And I still don't. I'm not famous. I'm just me.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play another song. And this is something more recent than what we've been hearing. This is your collaboration with Jack White. He produced an album of yours in 2004, Van Leer rose. How did you meet?

[Loretta Lynn]

I went to Detroit to work and Jack White came to see me. And of course, he told me about when he was little. He was about nine years old when Coal Miner's Daughter come out. He stayed in the theater the whole time, all day long and watched Coal Miner's Daughter over and over and over. So when he got a chance to work with me, he says, I told him I had to go home because I said, I've got to hurry because I got to record tomorrow. He says, well, how about me coming being the produce? I said, well, why not? That's how we got together. So he was in Nashville by the time I was, and we recorded, and that's how we started.

[Terry Gross]

The track I want to play is called Ms. Being Mrs. You wrote all the songs on this album, and this is one of my favorites. I like the song a lot, and also I just love how. How stripped down it is. It's just you and a guitar. Is that. Is that Jack White on guitar?

[Loretta Lynn]

That's Jack. What?

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Do you want to say anything about writing the song?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, you know, I don't like to talk about the way I write songs. I just let people hear a man know what I'm talking about.

[Terry Gross]

All right, Good enough. So this is Loretta lynn from the 2004 album Van Lear Rose, produced by Jack White, who's accompanying her on guitar.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

I lie here all alone in my bed of memories I'm dreaming of your.

[Loretta Lynn]

Sweet kiss oh, how you loved on me I can almost feel you with.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Me here in this blue moonlight oh.

[Loretta Lynn]

I miss being Mrs. Tonight.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Like so.

[Loretta Lynn]

Many other hearts Mine wanted to be free I've been held here every day.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Since you've been away from me My.

[Loretta Lynn]

Reflection in the mirror it's such a hurtful sight oh, I miss being Mrs.

[Singer (song excerpts)]

Tonight oh, I miss the unmisser tonight oh, and how I love them Loving arms that once helped me so tired I took off my wedding band and put it on my right hand I.

[Loretta Lynn]

Miss being Miss us tonight.

[Terry Gross]

That's my guest, Loretta Lynn with Jack White on guitar from the album Van Leer Rose, which Jack White produced of Loretta Lynn Songs in 2004. Your husband, who we've spoken a little bit about, died in 1996, and you didn't perform for a while after that. How has your life changed since he's been gone?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, not for the better. I mean, I miss him so much. You know, he kind of kept things going, like me recording, and he'd always tell me how good I was, you know, and that always helped a lot. And he would say, you know, we need to get a new record out or whatever. He always kept me moving. And if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have been singing, period, because he thought I could sing. And that's. He put me to work, you know.

[Terry Gross]

As so many people are, I think, kind of baffled a little bit by the relationship because it seems in some ways to have been a very rocky relationship. And at the same time, you stayed with him throughout.

[Loretta Lynn]

We had a I think we had a relationship. We fought one day and would love the next. So I mean, to me, that's a good relationship. If you can't fight and if you can't tell each other what you think, your relationship ain't much anyway.

[Terry Gross]

You don't need him anymore to tell him you're a good singer, right? I mean, you know that, right?

[Loretta Lynn]

Well, I don't know about that, but I try.

[Terry Gross]

Well, Loretta Lynn, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so very much.

[Loretta Lynn]

It's been nice to talk to you, honey.

[David Biancolli]

Loretta Lynn speaking with Terry Gross in 2010. Loretta Lynn died in 2022. Tonight, the Grand Ole Opry will celebrate its hundredth anniversary with a livestream concert. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews a new documentary about Russia's crackdown on independent journalists. This is FRESH air.

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[David Biancolli]

Macfound.org our film critic Justin Chang says the best documentary he's seen this year is a five and a half hour film called My Undesirable Friends, Part one, Last Air in Moscow. Filmed over several months in late 2021 and early 2022, it follows several independent journalists in Moscow as they deal with the fallout of Vladimir Putin's crackdown on reporters and Russia's initial invasion of Ukraine. My Undesirable Friends received a Gotham Award nomination for best documentary and is playing at select venues around the country. Here is Justin's review.

[Justin Chang]

In October 2021, the New York based filmmaker Julia Lokt flew to Moscow amid nationwide protests in support of the Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. Vladimir Putin's government had begun cracking down on independent journalists covering the protests, branding them as foreign agents, a designation that effectively stigmatized them and forced them to include disclaimers with their work. Lokta began filming several of these journalists who courageously kept reporting on the abuses of the regime, including her friend Anna Nemzer, a talk show host for the independent channel TV Rain. Hoping to capture the journalist's ordeal as nimbly and thoroughly as possible, Lokta became a one person crew, following her subjects around their homes and workplaces and filming on an iPhone she shot for months as tensions mounted, culminating in Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Not long afterward, all her subjects fled the country. The result of her efforts is an extraordinarily tense and intimate new documentary, My Undesirable Friends, Part one, Last Air and Moscow. Lokta is currently making a Part two, which will focus on the same subjects as they try to continue their work in exile. Part one, though, is already a stunning accomplishment, a harrowing immersion in the daily lives of journalists who find themselves in a state of free fall. The film is divided into five chapters. The first three take place in the months leading up to the invasion of Ukraine. We see Anna Nemzer in the TV Rain studio, interviewing activists who advocate for immigrants, people with disabilities and other marginalized groups. We see journalists reporting from the front lines of the protests and not conforming to state propaganda talking points. Whether they're data journalists, investigative reporters or feature writers, they all try to keep on working despite their foreign agent status, which some of them try to fight in court. Others mock the term and treat it as a badge of honor. Most of LOKT have subjects are women in their twenties and thirties, and over the course of these five and a half hours we're moved by their sense of camaraderie and community, and also by their gallows humor. They hang out at each other's apartments and crack jokes about the likelihood that they've been bugged or that they might be arrested or detained. As we'll see in the film's later stretch, they're not wrong to worry. Loktev, who was born in the former Soviet Union and moved to the US as a child, is a superbly observant filmmaker. In the past two decades, she's directed two fictional dramas, the Loneliest Planet and Day Night, Day Night, both slow burning character studies that took their time. Getting under your skin My undesirable Friends Part 1 is a work of similar patience. And once Russia's full scale assault on Ukraine begins, the movie has us fully in its grip. After the darkly comic tension of the first three parts, the fourth and fifth chapters become outright horrifying. As the journalists make plans to flee, the story's center of gravity shifts to a reporter whose fiance has been imprisoned for treason and who must make the heart rending decision whether to stay or leave. It's impossible to watch My undesirable friends Part 1 Without thinking of President Trump's ongoing attacks on the press. It's also hard not to see the film's events from the depressing standpoint of the present, with Navalny dead and the war in Ukraine still raging miserably on. Yet as grim as it is, the movie isn't a hopeless experience. I came away with deep admiration and affection for these journalists and for their devotion to their beleaguered but invaluable profession. This is one of the most engrossing movies, fiction or nonfiction, that I've seen all year. Because it doesn't have an American distributor, it also hasn't been the easiest movie to see. It's now playing in select venues around the country, and if you have a chance to see it in a theater in the coming weeks, you should. Five and a half hours may sound like a commitment, but once this movie has begun, you won't want to leave and you'll be as eager as I am by the end to see what lies ahead for these intrepid souls.

[David Biancolli]

In Part two, Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed My Undesirable Friends, Part one Last Air in Moscow. You can find a list of where you can see the film on the website argopictures.com that's a R G O T pictures.com on Monday's show, Oscar winning costume designer Paul Tazewell he watched the wizard of Oz as a child, designed the Wiz in high school, and now he's brought Wicked to life. He talks about creating more than a thousand looks to tell the story of Wicked for good. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. You can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Deanna Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer for Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley. I'm David Biancooli.

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[Terry Gross]

Com.

[Announcer]

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