Guillermo Del Toro would ‘rather die’ than use generative AI

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – Guillermo Del Toro would ‘rather die’ than use generative AI

Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Terry Gross (with segments by David Biancooli)
Guest: Guillermo del Toro
Episode Theme:
A deep-dive, wide-ranging interview with acclaimed filmmaker Guillermo del Toro, focused on his new film Frankenstein, its personal and philosophical inspirations, and his strong opposition to generative AI in art. The episode explores del Toro’s lifelong love of misunderstood monsters, the creative process behind Frankenstein, meditations on faith, death, and the parallels between technology and human hubris.

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1. Opening & Episode Theme

• 00:13–01:55
  Frankenstein is Guillermo del Toro’s new film, nominated for nine Academy Awards.
  It’s a reimagining of Mary Shelley’s novel and the 1931 film, telling the story in part from the creature’s perspective.
• The episode will explore del Toro’s long obsession with monsters, empathy, faith, and his rejection of generative AI in creative work.

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2. Early Inspirations and Personal Connection to Frankenstein

Guillermo del Toro on seeing Frankenstein (1931) as a child:

“The moment Boris Karloff crossed the threshold, I had an epiphany... I realized I understood my faith or my dogmas better through Frankenstein than through Sunday mass... I decided at age 7 that the creature of Frankenstein was going to be my personal avatar and my personal messiah.”
(03:53–04:50)

• Saw the original film after Catholic Mass; it profoundly shaped his worldview.
• Recognized religious symbolism in Frankenstein that resonated deeper than church.

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3. Structure and Stylistic Choices in the New Film

Distinct chapters and visual language:

• The film is split into three parts: introduction, Dr. Frankenstein’s perspective, and the creature’s perspective.
• Del Toro was inspired by how the original novel includes a chapter from the creature’s point of view, which is rarely fully visualized.

“The three chapters were very distinct in style and very distinct in energy... The fairytale breadth of it all and the parable... it feels like a parable of the prodigal father.”
(07:22–07:59)

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4. Religious Parallels and Themes

• Del Toro draws parallels between the creature, Jesus, and Pinocchio (from his own adaptation).
• Discusses myths in the Bible that inspired him, especially the Book of Job and the mystery of unexplained suffering.

“I triangulate the creature with Jesus and Pinocchio.”
(08:19–08:27)

• Del Toro, raised Catholic, describes being “exorcised” by his grandmother for his unusual interests—a recurring theme of feeling like an outsider.

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5. On Artificial Intelligence and "Natural Stupidity"

• The creature is likened to AI—a being created by man, continuing with its own agency, potentially causing harm.

• Del Toro’s stance:

  “It did and it didn’t [influence the film]. My concern is not artificial intelligence, but natural stupidity. I wanted the arrogance of Victor to be similar in some ways to the tech bros... creating something without considering the consequences.”
  (11:16–11:52)

• Del Toro passionately rejects generative AI in filmmaking:

  “I am not interested, nor will I ever be interested. I’m 61 and I hope to be able to remain uninterested in using it at all until I croak. The other day, somebody wrote me an email, said, what is your stance on AI? And my answer was very short. I said, I’d rather die.”
  (12:47–13:14)

• Stresses that true artistry involves “alchemy of emotion, spirituality, and feeling”—something AI cannot replicate.

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6. Death, Immortality, and Acceptance

On the creature’s immortality as a form of hell:

“I’m a huge fan of death. I’m a groupie for death. I think it’s the metronome of our existence, and without rhythm, there is no melody... it is the metronome of death that makes us value the compass of the beautiful music.”
(14:39–15:29)

• Personal trauma from his father’s kidnapping shaped his view of suffering and acceptance.
• Del Toro discusses childhood fears, nocturnal vigilance over loved ones, and how his attitudes have changed with age.

“I don’t fear it anymore. I don’t fear that anymore. I fear losing people. Yes. But me, I’m not afraid of dying, I hope.”
(15:54–17:13)

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7. Wisdom from the Book of Job & Taoism

Del Toro required his cast to read Job and the Tao Te Ching:

• The creature’s plea—“why did this thing have happened to me?”—echoes Job.
• Acceptance, letting go of desire, and embracing insignificance as sources of liberation.

“The Tao says all pain comes from desire, which is absolutely true... if you don’t want more, there’s a zero that gives you peace and the same with life.”
(17:24–18:34)

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8. Artistry & Film Craft — Imagery and Inspirations

On the 1931 Frankenstein film:

• The visual style (modern, German Expressionist) influenced del Toro’s work.
• Fun fact: Director James Whale sometimes spray-painted shadows for atmospheric effect.

“If the shadows on the set didn’t fall the way Whale liked it, he would spray paint them.”
(23:59–24:25)

• Del Toro’s Frankenstein creation scene is staged as a “concert” with anatomical artistry, unlike previous horror-oriented versions.

On anatomical accuracy:

• Del Toro, a lifelong hypochondriac, read entire medical encyclopedias as a child and purchased 19th-century medical texts for the film’s authenticity.
  (25:44–26:33)

Visual influence:

• Creature’s look inspired by artist Bernie Wrightson’s illustrations: “a newly minted human being,” with subtle biblical and sculptural echoes.

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9. Dreams, Nightmares, and Childhood

Del Toro as a lucid dreamer:

“A lucid dream for me, or waking nightmares... you wake up in your dream in the exact environment that you fell asleep on. But there are elements that are not normal. I used to see monsters...”
(28:15–29:23)

• Childhood nightmares directly influenced scenes in Frankenstein.
• His first film experience, Wuthering Heights, blurred dreams and movies—“My first movie was part of a lucid dream. Exactly.”
  (32:02–32:39)

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10. Personal History, Family, and Trauma

• Del Toro's family came into wealth after his father won the Mexican national lottery, leading to a childhood in a “castle” full of animals.
• The ransom and kidnapping of his father became a defining trauma; friends like James Cameron helped secure his father’s release.
• His father, despite wealth, instilled a strong work ethic in Guillermo.

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11. On Humor, Parody, and Homage

• Del Toro adores Young Frankenstein — calling it “one of the greatest comedies ever made” and “one of the great Frankenstein movies ever made.”
• Favorite moment: “Putting on the Ritz.”
  (37:07–37:17)

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Notable Quotes

• On AI: “I’d rather die.” – Guillermo del Toro (13:14)
• On death: “I’m a groupie for death. I think it’s the metronome of our existence, and without rhythm, there is no melody.” (14:39)
• On family and love: “No matter how different we were, we can love each other. And that is, again in Frankenstein.” (10:05)
• On acceptance: “The Tao says all pain comes from desire, which is absolutely true... if you don’t want more, there’s a zero that gives you peace.” (18:29)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:53: Del Toro’s childhood epiphany watching Frankenstein
• 07:59: Distinct style and energy of the new film’s chapters
• 11:16: Frankenstein as a parable for AI and human arrogance
• 12:47–13:14: “I’d rather die” – stance on generative AI
• 14:39–15:29: Death and the value of mortality
• 17:13–18:34: Wisdom from Job & Tao, liberation through acceptance
• 24:25: James Whale’s spray-painted shadows
• 28:15–29:34: Childhood nightmares, lucid dreaming, inspiration for filmmaking
• 33:08–35:46: Del Toro’s family, father's lottery win, kidnapping trauma
• 37:07: Love for Young Frankenstein’s “Putting on the Ritz”

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Conclusion

This episode reveals Guillermo del Toro’s profound and poetic approach to filmmaking, blending personal experience, philosophical depth, and a fierce devotion to the soul of creative work—refusing the shortcuts and soullessness of AI. It also demonstrates the intimate ties between his childhood, his faith, his traumas, and the monsters that populate his art.

Del Toro’s parting words:

“It’s been such a pleasure talking with you... Thank you for the wisdom and the careful guiding of this lengthy interview, which I adored every second of.” (37:44–38:00)

Transcript

[Announcer]

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[David Biancooli]

This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooli. Guillermo del Toro's film Frankenstein is nominated for nine Academy Awards, including best picture, supporting Actor, Cinematography, original score and adapted screenplay. Del Toro wrote and directed this new reimagining of Frankenstein, which takes inspiration from the 1931 film Frankenstein, one of the most enduring horror monster films, and from Mary Shelley's 1818 novel Frankenstein. In del Toro's movie, the final part of the story is told from the creature's point of view. Here's a clip from it in which the creature, played by Oscar nominee Jacob Elordi, is shot and left for dead by hunters.

[Guillermo del Toro]

There was silence again, and then merciless life. How long did I die for? I do not know. But I saw my injuries healed. The cold winter air stung in my lungs. I felt lonelier than ever because for every man there was but one remedy to all pain. Death. A gift you two had denied me.

[David Biancooli]

Some of the themes of del Toro's new film echo themes with which he's been obsessed for years. Misunderstood creatures, men who behave like monsters, father, son, relationships, religion, empathy, cruelty, misguided scientific experiments that take a terrible turn. Also what del Toro describes as the uneasy truce between science and religion, machine and man, and the realization that you are inescapably alone. His other movies include Pan's Labyrinth, the Shape of Water, which won four Oscars including best picture and best director Nightmare Alley, a reimagining of Pinocchio filmed in stop motion animation and two Hellboy films. A significant event in del Toro's life was the kidnapping of his father in Mexico after del Toro helped raise a million dollar ransom, his father was released in del Toro's Frankenstein. Oscar Isaac plays Dr. Victor Frankenstein, the surgeon who wants to create new life, a new man built out of body parts from the newly dead. The creature he makes is played by Jacob Elordi, who's best known for co starring in Euphoria and who also played Elvis Presley in the movie Priscilla. His newest role is as Heathcliff, opposite Margot Robbie as Kathy in the new movie version of Wuthering Heights. Del Toro grew up in Guadalajara, Mexico, and has been living in LA since the late 90s.

[Terry Gross]

Guillermo del Toro, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your new film which brings together so much of your other work and I know it's a Dream come true for you to do your own version of Frankenstein. You first saw the movie, the 1931 movie, which is totally different from the book and your new movie, but. But that movie really had a hold on you. Tell us why it had such meaning for you.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Well, it was, curiously enough, on a Sunday after Catholic mass. We came back home, and then we would watch horror movies on Channel 6 all day. And it was the first time I saw Frankenstein. And the moment Boris Karloff crossed the threshold, I had an epiphany. I had St. Paul on the road to Damascus kind of experience. I realized I understood my faith or my dogmas better through Frankenstein than through Sunday mass. I saw the resurrection of the flesh, the Immaculate Conception, ecstasy, you know, stigmata. Everything made sense. And I decided at age 7 that the creature of Frankenstein was going to be my personal avatar and my personal messiah. It was a really profound transformation, and it made an impression that lasted my whole life.

[Terry Gross]

There's three parts of the movie. There's the introduction.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

Then there's the story, told pretty much from Dr. Frankenstein's point of view. And then the final part is told from the creature's point of view. I really wanted to read Mary Shelley's novel, which I've never read before, speaking to you again, and I wasn't able to find the time to do it.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

I did, however, read your introduction to, like, I think it's a 2021 annotated version of your novel. But anyways, in Mary Shelley's original telling of the story, is there a chapter that's from the creature's point of view, or is that just something you wanted to do?

[Guillermo del Toro]

No, no, no. There are so many things that are in the novel. That is one of them. When the creature meets Victor in the frozen north, he says, well, this is what happened to me. And he proceeds to tell him his itinerary of degradation and humanization and learning the language with the family of the hermit. You know, all of that is in the novel, but it's been rarely articulated. And I found that hinging the movie in the middle was structurally the best way to make the audience almost get a jolt and say, oh, I've never seen this before. Even if it's been dramatized briefly in other versions, this is the one that tracks the creature in a distinct chapter. It starts in the frozen north and is very discreet in color. Then you have childhood and young age of Victor, which is idealized and very heightened visually by the fact that Victor is telling the story. And then the fairy tale, like yeah.

[Terry Gross]

I'm glad you said fairy tale, because that seems to me like the part from Dr. Frankenstein's point of view, you know, has elements of, like, horror film and monster film. But the second part, it's set in the woods. It's like a fairy tale in that little cabin. Yeah. And the old blind man, it's kind of a very fairy tale, benevolent character. There's spirits in the woods, and he's.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Guided, the creature is guided by all sorts of animals into understanding the world.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And the blind old hermit thinks that because he can't see, he doesn't see the monster that other people see. And in fact, he thinks the creature is the spirit of the woods.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes. That was very important to me, that the three chapters were very distinct in style and very distinct in energy. The camera work is very different, the color palette is very different. And I think that I would say, having seen most every version of Frankenstein on film, this. This is very unique. The scale of the movie, both being epic and intimate, is very unique. But the fairytale breadth of it all and the parable, it feels like a parable of the prodigal father. I'd say, jokingly.

[Terry Gross]

Are you trying to interpret Frankenstein? People always call the monster Frankenstein.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah, that's a mistake. That came from a play.

[Terry Gross]

So are you trying to compare the creature in Frankenstein to Jesus?

[Guillermo del Toro]

I think so. I mean, I think the parallels are very, very curious. I triangulate the creature with Jesus and Pinocchio.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. In your version of Pinocchio. And I don't know if this is in other stories or in the original fairy tale. Geppetto, who creates the puppet, Pinocchio also has built or carved, I should say, a huge depiction of Jesus being crucified for the church.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah. No, that's completely original, too.

[Terry Gross]

That's original, yes.

[Guillermo del Toro]

To me, the myths are very related. The two biggest mysteries in the Bible for me growing up, and I am a lapsed Catholic, but the two mysteries were the Book of Job, in which man questions God, why do bad things happen to good people? And the answer basically of God is, why not?

[Terry Gross]

It's very comforting the way you put it.

[Guillermo del Toro]

That's the way God put it. He says, who are you to question my wisdom? You were not there when I created the world.

[Terry Gross]

Basically, when we talked a few years ago, you mention that your grandmother, who was very Catholic, very exorcised you. Not exorcised, but as in an exorcism, she exorcised you twice.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah. With the holy water. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Did you feel like people saw you as unholy and a sacrilege in the same way that people see the creature in Frankenstein and even Pinocchio, when Pinocchio was kind of rowdy in church because he's never been there before, he doesn't understand what church is. The people in the church call him unholy and a sacrilege.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Well, you know, I'm very used to not fitting. I'm always looking through the window into the world, you know, a little bit, with a set of thoughts and a set of principles and ideas that don't necessarily conform. So my grandmother was in great pain that I would draw monsters all day. I would talk about the Bible, asking questions that were maybe too poignant, you know, but we loved each other. And that is salient in my movies. No matter how different we were, we can love each other. And that is, again in Frankenstein. There's Frankenstein in all my movies, from Chronos all the way to Pinocchio. Every single movie, I hesitate to think of one that doesn't have elements of it.

[Terry Gross]

You could say in some ways that the creature in Frankenstein is like artificial intelligence because he's created by man, but then lives on its own and can destroy man if, you know, without even understanding quite what he's doing. So what are your thoughts about AI and did that kind of inform the movie in any way?

[Guillermo del Toro]

It did and it didn't. It didn't in the sense that my concern is not artificial intelligence, but natural stupidity. I think that's what drives most of the world's worst features. But I did want it to have the arrogance of Victor be similar in some ways to the tech bros. You know, he's kind of aligned creating something without considering the consequences, you know, And I think we have to take a pause and consider where we're going. If you have to teach an AI to think in ones and zeros, you know, oh, my God, I would love for a generation to get raising kids right one time. One time in the entire history of mankind, there hasn't been a single generation that was raised right all across the globe. And I think that's our biggest failure in a way. You know, ones and zeros don't get the alchemy that you get with emotion and experience. You get the information, but you don't get the alchemy of emotion, spirituality, and feeling. I'm not saying it's impossible to replicate, but we have it readily available with the next generation of children. And that's why the painful thing that Jacob Elordi and Victor enact is a father and son relationship that is very relatable in the film. Very relatable and very moving by the end.

[Terry Gross]

Did you take advantage of any AI in making Frankenstein?

[Guillermo del Toro]

AI, particularly generative AI is. I am not interested, nor will I ever be interested. I'm 61 and I hope to be able to remain uninterested in using it at all until I croak. I really don't. The other day, somebody wrote me an email, said, what is your stance on AI? And my answer was very short. I said, I'd rather die.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, those are strong words.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Not for me. I'm Mexican. But I think there is that. Even when a human sings a song that has already been recorded six, seven times, they're filtering their experience, their life. I often think of Johnny Cash singing Hurt, the Trent Reznor song, and making it entirely his own, or Joe Cocker singing the Beatles. That's not aversion, that's not remixing. That is filtering through alchemical pain and experience. A work of art, into making it your own.

[Terry Gross]

The creature in Frankenstein is endowed with eternal life. In your film Cursed.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Cursed.

[Terry Gross]

Well, that's what I was going to ask you. What do you think about. You know, his eternal life is hell. The creature is alone and he wants to end his tormented life, but he can't. There's no one in the world who's like him. And Dr. Frankenstein refuses to make a companion for him. And the creature says there was only one remedy for pain. Death. And you took that away from me, too. After the creature survived something that other people assume would have killed him, he says there was silence and then merciless life, I felt lonelier than ever. So when you think of eternal life, do you think that that's torment?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Oh, I do. I'm a huge fan of death. I'm a groupie for death. I think it's the metronome of our existence, and without rhythm, there is no melody. You know, it is the metronome of death that makes us value the compass of the beautiful music. You know, I'm going to say this comes when my father was taken. Every day was torment. And I used to see the sun rising and resent it. And I said, the sun doesn't care about my pain. But then eventually, I realized it was my pain that didn't care about the sun and that I needed to change that, that I needed to accept it. I needed to understand that the rhythm of the cosmos is different than that of my little heart.

[Terry Gross]

You know, you mentioned the fear of death. Every day that your father was held hostage, kidnapped for ransom. Of course you'd be worried about death then. I mean, it was the thread of death hanging over him. And his life was in your hands to save. Putting that aside, as major as that is, did you have a fear of death growing up? And as a young man?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes, as a young man, my grandmother and I had a very precarious sense of death and life. My grandmother would say goodnight to me every day and say, let us pray that I'm here tomorrow. And that is very. That is pretty intense for a four or five year old to hear. And I would spend. Sometimes I would sleep at the foot of her bed and I would be listening in the dark for her breathing. And if the breathing ceased, even for two seconds, I would be jolted and take a look to see if she was okay. And that stayed with me for many decades. I don't fear it anymore. I don't fear that anymore. I feel losing people. Yes. But me, I'm not afraid of dying, I hope. You know. Really, Terry, all these great questions, you know, when they get resolved, right. When the lights flutter and you are no longer a director or a general or a pope. Right. When you become just you and the lights are flickering out, that's when you realize what you did or didn't do in your life. And that's the most momentous thing anyone can experience. And you can go with great agitation or great peace.

[Terry Gross]

We were talking earlier about the Book of Job.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

You asked your cast to read the Book of Job.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And the Tao, what did you want them to take from it?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Because ultimately, that's the plea of the creature too. The plea of the creature is why, you know, why did this thing have happened to me? And the answer comes at the end. The final image of the film is what tells you what we can do. I mean, acceptance is so profound. You know, we are building a culture in which we have the idea of what things should be. And when they don't happen, you can feel frustrated, rebel against them, but at the end of the day, they are what they are. Marty Scorsese tackled the same sort of question in the Irishman. And the answer is very, very beautiful. He says, it is what it is. That's the Book of Job. It is what it is. The Tao says all pain comes from desire, which is absolutely true. You want more awards, you want more money, you find yourself in pain. I do, you know, but if you don't, if you don't want more, there's a zero that gives you peace and the same with life.

[Terry Gross]

So you found feeling insignificant.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Oh, great.

[Terry Gross]

Liberating, Liberating.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Which can happen with reviews.

[Terry Gross]

You read them.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Not anymore. Not anymore. I'm 61. I don't. But I did. I did. Oh, my God. When I was younger, I would read every single one until I found the one that would never leave my brain. I remember a few that are really well phrased.

[Terry Gross]

Do you want to quote one?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Well, Jay Hoverman of the Village Voice wrote a great he put down Blade too beautifully. He said the only thing remot scary about Blade 2 is that it's done by the same man that did Devil's Backbone, which is beautiful.

[David Biancooli]

Filmmaker Guillermo del Toro speaking with Terry Gross last October. He wrote and directed the film Frankenstein, which has been nominated for nine Academy Awards, including best picture, best supporting actor, original score, production design, sound and adapted screenplay. More after a break. I'm David Biancooli, and this is FRESH air.

[Announcer]

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[Guillermo del Toro]

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[David Biancooli]

Let's get back to Terry's interview with filmmaker Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the film Frankenstein, a new interpretation of the story inspired by Mary Shelley's 1818 novel. The film has been nominated for nine Academy Awards, including best Picture, best Cinematography, best Costumes, best Original adapted Screenplay, and best supporting Actor. Here's a clip from the film in which Dr. Victor Frankenstein, played by Oscar Isaac, is addressing academics about his quest to create new life in a new man built out of body parts from the newly dead life.

[Guillermo del Toro]

This is life, gentlemen. We are born, and no sooner do we rise. We fall death. And in the space between that rise and fall our humble little Perdian. Now, birth is not in our Hands. Is it conception that sparked the animation of thought and soul that isn't God's hands. God, but death. Now there lies the challenge. That should be our concern. It should be, who are we to do so? We are not gods, are we? But if we are to behave as immodestly as gods, we must at the very least deliver miracles, wouldn't you say? Ignite a divine spark in these young students minds. Teach them defiance rather than obedience. Show that man may pursue nature to her hiding places and stop death. Not slow it down, but stop it entirely. Silence. Silence.

[David Biancooli]

Del Toro fell in love at the age of seven with James Whale's 1931 film Frankenstein, which starred Boris Karloff as the creature.

[Terry Gross]

I want to talk with you about the 1931 film Frankenstein, which was directed by James Whale, who also directed the first film version of Showboat, which is quite a contrast.

[Guillermo del Toro]

And the first version of Waterloo Bridge, which is. His version, is so brutal and sort of Brechtian. He was a very interesting director and a very interesting man.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you know, I watched that movie so many times when I was a child because it used to be run frequently on Million Dollar Movie in New York, and they would show one movie and run it over and over all week. And then I watched it again a few nights ago because I wanted to refresh my memory. And part of what I love about the movie is just the otherworldliness of it. The cinematography is so good and it reminds me of, like, film noir, German expressionism. And it's misty, it's stormy, it's dreamlike.

[Guillermo del Toro]

It'S very modern, by the way.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guillermo del Toro]

I mean, for 1931, this film. Well, and a lot of this era of Hollywood filmmaker, is extremely influenced by German cinema and to the point where Whale does an artifice that is not apparent to the audience until you tell them to look for it. If the shadows on the set didn't fall the way Whale liked it, he would spray paint them.

[Terry Gross]

Whoa. Really?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah. There's a lot of shadows in the window that don't correspond to the light that is being poured on the set. And the light is. The shadows are painted with spray paint on the walls. And nobody knows now that I told you, if you watch it again, you'll see it here and there.

[Terry Gross]

Did the style of filmmaking, the shadows, the lighting, the mist, the nightmarish quality of the images, did that influence you as a filmmaker?

[Guillermo del Toro]

It did up to a certain point, and it did only on certain movies. Like, for example, on Pinocchio. The creation of Pinocchio is Shot like a horror film, but the creation of the creature in this film is shown like a concert, like a joyful cornucopia of anatomical parts, blood, ligament and muscles, which has never been shown in any other versions before. But to me it was mandatory because I wanted to see Victor at his professional best and at his artistic best. So I talked to my composer, Alexandre Desplat, and I said, we're gonna do it with a waltz and I'm going to shoot it like a fun filled concert of anatomical part.

[Terry Gross]

Did you study anatomy in order to do that?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes. First of all, I've been obsessed by medicine and anatomy. I was the world's youngest hypochondriac. When I was a kid, I would come.

[Terry Gross]

Congratulations, that's quite an achievement.

[Guillermo del Toro]

It is. There must be a Boy Scout patch for that. But I went to my mother every day and I said, mother, I think I have trichinosis of the brain. Mother, I have cirrhosis. I read an entire encyclopedia of health as a kid and I've been very taken by anatomy ever since. And we had a Victorian consultant and I used an entire medical library that I purchased from 1835. I bought it in London and I used it to make sure the terms and the procedures were up to speed but not too advanced.

[Terry Gross]

What did you tell your collaborators about what you wanted your Frankenstein to look like? Cause he looks nothing like Boris Koloff. No, and I don't mean just. I don't just mean his face, but he doesn't have like a bolt in his neck. He doesn't look all stitched together.

[Guillermo del Toro]

What I was trying to capture is the beautiful style of the illustrations of an American artist called Bernie Wrightson, who illustrated for me the best illustrated version of the novel ever and who collaborated with me earlier on. And it has a very vironian, very doomed, very Wuthering height, sort of look of a doomed hero. And when he's first born and he's bald and almost naked, I wanted it to feel like an anatomical chart, like something newly minted. Not a repair job on an ICU victim, but the skills of Victor, his exquisite sense of design. The head is patterned after phrenology manuals from the 1800s, so they have very elegant, almost aerodynamic lines. I wanted this alabaster or marble statue feel, so it feels like a newly minted human being. And we also tried to make it the way I remember Jesus images, life size in the churches of my childhood.

[Terry Gross]

The original Frankenstein movie is so dreamlike, nightmare like. And I think several of your films have very nightmarish imagery in it. I read you were a lucid dreamer.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes. As a kid.

[Terry Gross]

As a kid. So explain what you mean when you say a lucid dreamer.

[Guillermo del Toro]

A lucid dream for me, or waking nightmares used to be called too, is you wake up in your dream in the exact environment that you fell asleep on. But there are elements that are not normal. I used to see monsters. I saw a burning figure at the foot of my bed, which is where the burning archangel comes in, Frankenstein. And that figure extended its arms and said, I live. And I woke up screaming. When I was a very young child, I used to see a fawn, a goatman come from behind an armoire while the church chimed midnight in the neighborhood. And with each chime the figure would come up. And then you wake up and nothing is there and you're covered in sweat. And that's sort of lucid dreaming or waking nightmare states, which are a disruption of the REM cycle on the brain, but to you as a kid is truly harrowing.

[Terry Gross]

So you would dream that you woke up and escaped the nightmare, only to find that the nightmare still is going on. So it makes the nightmare seem even more like reality.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes. Which is why one of the best images in the novel of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein had never been rendered on film until now. And it was my favorite moment reading it as A At age 11, I read the novel, and it's the moment Victor wakes up from the night of creation and the creature is standing at the foot of the bed looking back at him. As a kid, I held my breath. I was shocked. And I prayed for decades that I could make that moment come to life on a film before anyone and fortunately, nobody.

[Terry Gross]

Well, we have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film A New Interpretation of the Story. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Public Media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts. Perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access and more. So start supporting what you love [e-mail].

[Terry Gross]

Over the years at NPR's FRESH AIR, we've gotten to talk with a lot of great filmmakers. Now we've made a playlist of some of our favorites, including Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Ava DuVernay, Mel Brooks, Spike Lee, Werner Herzog and others. Find all our new playlists and more at Fresh Air. Plus, at npr.org fresh air.

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[Terry Gross]

Do you think that your lucid dreams when you were a child relate to how you fell in love with movies when you were a child? Because movies are so dreamlike, but they might haunt your dreams. You might be afraid of them, but you're not literally going to think that you live in that world.

[Guillermo del Toro]

You absolutely are absolutely right. The first film I saw was William Wyler's Wuthering Heights with Laurence Olivier. I went with my mother to a cinema downtown that was super cheap and showed very old movies. It was really gothic atmosphere with rain and the moors and Olivier. It's basically a ghost story in many ways. Wooden Heights and I fell asleep full of fear. I dreamt my dream and woke up in the theater with the movie still playing. So. Exactly. My first movie was part of a lucid dream. Exactly.

[Terry Gross]

Wow. What was your emotional reaction to that?

[Guillermo del Toro]

You're looking at it. That's when I fell in love with gothic romance. And I couldn't have been more than four. Why do I know it? Because I remember the house we were living in where I was born and my father won the lottery, the national lottery, in 1969, which would make me five years old when we moved from that house to a giant house in the outskirts of the city.

[Terry Gross]

Your father won the lottery in 1969. How much money did he win?

[Guillermo del Toro]

$6 million in 1692, which is the entire budget of Planet of the Apes.

[Terry Gross]

That's amazing.

[Guillermo del Toro]

How did it change your life completely? I mean. Completely. We moved into a house and lived a very sort of strange life. I mean, we had all sorts of pets. We had eagles, a pet lion, 30 dogs.

[Terry Gross]

Whoa, whoa. You had a zoo?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah, we had like a zoo. And we had. I could go like Danny in the Shining. I could go on my tricycle for hours in the long corridors. Sometimes, like a magic realism novel, I would go for weeks without seeing a single adult. I would find food on the fridge. I would find clean clothes on my drawers. And I didn't interact with many adults. I would just, you know, exist in a mysterious life in an enchanted castle.

[Terry Gross]

$6 million was a lot more then than it is now.

[Guillermo del Toro]

It was. And one of the things he did is he bought a library and filled it with books that he never read. But I read them all. And that's where I read the Encyclopedia of Anatomy and Health, and that's where I read all my classics. You know, Moby Dick, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Edgar Allan Poe, Oscar Wilde.

[Terry Gross]

Wow. So what happened to the money? Because he was held for a million dollar ransom about 30 years later and didn't have the money?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Well, what happened is my dad controlled every single. None of us had access to that money. My father raised those. He would say, you want? I would say, I want to buy film for my camera. And he would say, okay, go to the car dealership and clean all the cars all week. And Saturday, I'll give you a third of it. You come back another three weeks, I'll buy you a reel of Super 8. He didn't want to raise us as if we had everything, so, you know, none of us had access to that money. He had the money to pay for the ransom, but none of us could access it. Oh, yeah, I had some money left from Mimic when he was kidnapped. I put it all in. Friends of his gave us loans. It's a long story, and not a very pleasant one about the nature of humanity, but we managed to collect it. We had a negotiator that came from England, and that negotiation was paid by Jim Cameron, who has been my friend for more than 30 years.

[Terry Gross]

The director.

[Guillermo del Toro]

The director, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Who directed Titanic, among other things.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Titanic, Terminator 2, Avatar. Yeah. I love going to Mexico. And at the same time, I have to admit that I get sort of PTSD here and there, you know?

[Terry Gross]

Ptsd?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah. I feel like something may happen at any moment.

[Terry Gross]

Because of the kidnapping?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes, because when it lasts 72 days, you go through all the stages of grief. Five times. It increased my sense of being unmoored in my existence, not belonging in my existence. It reaffirmed that feeling that was originally from childhood. And now as an adult, I feel it in a different way. But, you know, as Marty Feldman puts it in Young Frankenstein, it could be worse. It could be raining.

[Terry Gross]

Do you like Young Frankenstein?

[Guillermo del Toro]

I adore it. That's a movie that is, more people think is based on the whale movies. It's partially based on that, but more than any other movie, and I recommend this movie wholeheartedly, it's based very much on Son of Frankenstein, which is a great Frankenstein movie. Really, really terrific.

[Terry Gross]

Do you have a favorite song from Young Frankenstein?

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yes. I think that the point of this agreement between Gene Wilder and Mel Brooks, which is the most brilliant moment, is putting on the Ritz.

[Terry Gross]

Of course. Yes.

[Guillermo del Toro]

I think that's not only one of the greatest comedies ever made, he's one of the great Frankenstein movies ever made. It is so much its own identity that people believe erroneously that the Blind Hermit comes from Young Frankenstein sometimes. And it comes obviously from the novel and from Bride of Frankenstein, the whale movie, which is an exquisite sequel to the first Frankenstein.

[Terry Gross]

Guillermo del Toro, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Always a pleasure. And thank you for the wisdom and the careful guiding of this lengthy interview, which I adored every second of.

[Terry Gross]

I really appreciate you saying that. I love talking with you.

[David Biancooli]

Guillermo del Toro speaking with Terry Gross last October. His film Frankenstein has been nominated for nine Academy Awards.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Ladies and gentlemen, mesdames et messieurs Damen.

[David Biancooli]

Undherrent from what was once an inarticulate.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Mass of lifeless tissues, may I now.

[David Biancooli]

Present a cultured, sophisticated man about town.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

Hit it.

[David Biancooli]

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Go where fashion sits in the race.

[David Biancooli]

Different types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes or cut away coat perfect fits.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Dressed up like a million dollar trooper Trying mighty hard to look like Gary Cooper. Hooper, Hooper, come let's mix Where Rockefellers.

[David Biancooli]

Walk with sticks or umberellers in their mitts.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

Peace.

[David Biancooli]

That was Gene Wilder and Peter Boyle from the film Young Frankenstein. After we take a short break, critic at large John Powers reviews Islands, a noirish new film. This is FRESH air.

[Announcer]

This week on the NPR Politics podcast.

[Guillermo del Toro]

For months, the president's immigration strategy has been on full display. Now some Republicans are having a hard time defending defending it.

[David Biancooli]

Yeah, I think that's a good weather.

[Terry Gross]

Vein for where the politics are headed.

[Guillermo del Toro]

In all of this. Cracks in the MAGA coalition.

[Announcer]

This week on the NPR Politics podcast.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

This week on Consider this.

[Guillermo del Toro]

ICE agents in Minnesota now reporting to.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

Tom Homan, the architect of the president's family separation policy. Who does Homan report to?

[Announcer]

Up until now it's been Stephen Miller.

[Guillermo del Toro]

But I think the administration is seeing.

[Announcer]

How much trouble listening to Miller has.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Gotten them in when it comes to public opinion.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

This week on Consider this.

[Terry Gross]

Listen on the NPR app or wherever.

[Announcer]

You get your podcasts Valentine's Day is coming up, and the perfect gift for the NPR lover in your life is waiting at the NPR Shop. From cozy sweaters and mugs made for slow mornings to our tiny desk hoodie, there's something for every NPR fan. Each purchase supports public media and the journalism you love. Find something [e-mail] in the new film.

[David Biancooli]

Islands, out this week, a washed up tennis pro gives lessons at a fancy hotel in the Canary Islands. But when he meets an elegant woman with an unlikable husband, things take a noirish turn. Our critic at large, John Powers, says. The plot may sound familiar, but Islands takes you places you don't expect after.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

The apocalyptic death and destruction of World War II, entire nations struggled to start anew. Amidst the physical and psychological rubble, there was a steady outpouring of stories that took place in settings that were barren, stripped down, inhospitable. The most famous of these was probably Waiting for Godot, whose stage decoration is described a country road, a tree evening. Such a landscape is itself a statement about the stark reality of existence, one shared by countless post war movies and books whose characters inhabit deserts, empty beaches, mountain fortresses, bombed out cities and impoverished villages. You get a modern, upmarket version of this kind of arid landscape in Islands, a teasingly spare slow burn drama by German filmmaker Jan Ola Gerstein, here working in English. Set on Fuerteventura, one of Spain's Canary Islands off the coast of North Africa, it lures you in like a conventional thriller, then turns into something less predictable, looking a bit like Peter Fonda in his scruffy days. Sam Riley plays the quietly sympathetic Tom, a broken down tennis pro who's ended up on Fuerteventura, a small island that's basically a collection of beaches, volcanic slag and craggy cliffs. He gives tennis lessons to the guests of a luxury hotel that, in these surroundings looks like the QE2 has somehow docked on the moon. Although his life might appear days in the sun, nights of dancing, drinking and women eager to party, he wakes up with the daily hangover of a man trying to convince himself that purgatory is paradise. This changes when he starts giving tennis lessons to Anton, the young son of a rich married couple. The sophisticated Ann that's Stacey Martin, a former actress, and Dave, a jerk businessman who specializes in a kind of bullying friendliness. Tom enjoys teaching Anton and starts doing the family favors here. After Tom helps them get a better room, Dave, played by Jack Farthing, insists on compensating him.

[Guillermo del Toro]

How much extra is it there's no charge.

[Terry Gross]

Come on, you'll pay the difference.

[Guillermo del Toro]

No, really, it's sorted. Oh, my God. Okay, well, at least let me. No, you don't have to worry. Come on, man. No, really, it made me feel better. It's fine. You sure?

[Terry Gross]

Well, then at least let us buy you dinner.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And somewhere nice, not this catastrophic hotel food. Yeah, okay. Why not? I know a little place in town. Perfect.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

Ann and Dave are dangerously unhappy, and for those of us raised on Double Indemnity and Body Heat, we start waiting for the inevitable torrid sex scene and murder. And we worry for Tom, a decent guy who Riley gives a very nice vibe as he guides them around the island and gets pushed into taking Dave out clubbing. I wondered if he'd never seen a film noir, otherwise he'd know he's heading for trouble. Eventually, that trouble comes. Dave disappears, the cops are called in, and it turns out Ann hasn't been entirely forthcoming yet. What makes Islands good is that it's not just another reheated noir. As our anxiety mounts, a feeling accentuated by the musical score, we begin to pick through the story's sly hints and possible clues. Have Tom and Ann actually met before? Why exactly is Tom drawn to Antonio? Why is he bending over backwards for people he barely knows? Is he hoping to escape his spiritual solitude by throwing himself into the search for the missing Dave? The movie makes us feel Tom's indeed everyone's isolation. It's not for nothing the film is called Islands. Gersta's carefully calibrated images show how the characters are defined by the meaningless beauty of the island, where even the sunset can feel a bit cold, and the meaningless pleasures of holiday reveling, swatting tennis balls back and forth, guzzling drink after drink, throwing one's music fueled arms toward the sky in the disco, over and over and over again. In its blend of high art style and pulp crime story, Islands is a nifty piece of what we might call existential population. While both its style and story clearly suggest a male riff, a Michelangelo Antonio's great film, La Ventura, whose heroine goes looking for a mysteriously vanished woman. Islands also made me think of Michel Welbeck's nifty novella Lanzarote, about an alienated hedonist search for meaning on another of the Canary Islands, and even the White Lotus TV series, where both tourists and hotel employees face crises that call their lives into questions. Now, I'm happy to say that for all its metaphysical overtones, Islands doesn't end on one of those unresolved enigmas that leaves you shrieking at the screen. We learn everything we need to know and so does our hero. Realizing he's confused inertia for contentment, Tom finally grasps that the only way to stop his life from being empty is to do something meaningful to fill it up.

[David Biancooli]

John Powers reviewed the new film Islands on Monday's show. Ethan Hawke. He's been nominated for an Oscar for his starring performance in the film Blue Moon about lyricist Lorenz Hart in the streaming series the Lowdown. He's a small time investigative journalist, constantly getting into trouble. He'll talk about his movies and his life from his years as a teenage film star to to today. Hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. Fresh Air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Sharp. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Deanna Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yukundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Biancooli.

[Announcer]

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[Narrator/Other Guest]

This week on up first, more violence in Minneapolis. Democrats say they will block a spending bill in the Senate after another deadly ICE shooting. How will Republicans respond? And could the Trump administration rethink its strategy on immigration? We'll keep you posted every morning with three stories you need to know to.

[Guillermo del Toro]

Start your day up.

[Narrator/Other Guest]

First, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.