Stephen Graham (4:34)

Excuse me, mate. Yeah, I haven't got a clue what I'm doing here. I don't. What do we say? Just don't answer for him, all right? Just, just be yourself. They know you're his dad. We know you're his dad. It's okay to process. It's okay to be shocked. And it's, it's okay to be human. Yeah. I mean this, this isn't normal. Do you know what I mean? No. Never even been in a police station before. You'll be fine. I just, I just don't want to get it wrong for me lad, you know what I mean? You'll be fine.

Sam Brigger (5:14)

That's a scene from Adolescence, starring my guest, Stephen Graham. Stephen Graham, welcome to Fresh air.

Stephen Graham (5:20)

Thank you. What a wonderful introduction. Thank you very much.

Sam Brigger (5:24)

So this show, Adolescence, was actually your idea. You came to your co creator, Jack Thorne, with The idea. What was it that you were thinking about that you wanted to explore on the screen?

Stephen Graham (5:35)

It happened a while ago, to be honest with you, Sam. I read an article in a newspaper which. It was about a young boy who had stabbed a young girl to death. And it just made me feel quite cold. And I was stunned by, you know, what I was reading. And then about three or four months later, there was a story on the news on television, and I was watching it, and it was. Again, it was about a young boy who had stabbed a young girl to death. And this incident was as the opposite end to the country, to the first incident that I'd read about. And at that point, if I'm completely honest, it really hurt my heart. But in that moment, I judged the parents. And I instantly said to myself, you know, it's got to be down to the parents. And then I stopped myself and tried to be mindful and questioned the fact that, what if it's not? Maybe I shouldn't be so judgmental. What if it's not? And from that basis, from that premise, I just thought, well, why is this happening? Why are we in this situation where, you know, young boys, and they are young boys, they're not men, you know, their brains haven't been fully formed yet. Their physiology is not completed yet. You know, the adolescence is a very difficult age, as we all know. Do you know what I mean? You go through a lot of different things, physically, mentally, and even spiritually in the greater scheme of things. You know what I mean? But my main question was, why is this happening?

Sam Brigger (7:09)

And I guess that one of the things is that you're exploring why, but you're not. It's not a didactic show. You sort of let the feelings and the issues sort of stew there, but you're not resolving them.

Stephen Graham (7:21)

No, not at all. And, you know, ultimately, I think. I think that's one of the main themes of the show, is that they can't be resolved and we don't have the answers. There's a wonderful saying, which is, it takes a village to raise a child. And within that kind of complexity of what that says to me, within what we are doing, it's kind of like maybe we're all accountable. And that comes down to, you know, the parenting, maybe how we parent our children, the school system, how the education system guides and tries to educate our children, the government, you know, how they can bring in legislation, the community and the environment of where we live. And then on top of that, now, which was something that me and you never had to suffer from and our parents never had to think about. But there is now this big thing called the Internet. When a child closes the door. Back in the day when it was me and you, we didn't have access to the rest of the world and we couldn't be influenced dramatically by other people and their theories and their thought processes. So that was what we really wanted to look at, you know what I mean? Maybe we're all accountable in some way for what is happening today in our society.

Sam Brigger (8:31)

So your character Eddie is a successful businessman. He has a plumbing business. He's lifted himself up in the world. He's trying to be a good husband and a good father. And you say that you based him to some degree on your uncles and your friends, fathers. What was it about them that you took?

Stephen Graham (8:51)

For me, Eddie, the character that I played, I wanted to make him more like that kind of archetypal man in a way, the kind of men that I was brought up with, like my uncles and like I've said, you know, my friends, fathers and stuff like that, who are beautiful, wonderful men, hardworking men who go to work, say maybe 6 o', clock, 7 o' clock in the morning, morning and don't manage to get back home till gone, six, seven, eight at night, you know what I mean? So the kind of area that they live in is it's a really nice housing estate, you know what I mean? It's a well to do area in many ways. It's far from upper class and it's a working class household in a really nice area. So I wanted to concentrate on the fact that they come from a good home and there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of love in that home. The mother and father primarily are doing the best for their children and his sister is an A level student. You know, she's a really hard working, conscientious student. Because it's unconventional for us to follow the story through the eyes of the family who are from the perpetrator. Normally, as you can imagine, it would be the victim side of it, and rightly so, do you know what I mean? In that conventional drama, that's what we would see. But also what I wanted to try and do with this process was eliminate the possibilities of pointing the finger and saying, well, this is why. So I didn't want it to be like dad raised his hand and hit his boy. So normally we could be able to point the finger in that direction and say this is why he did it. But we wanted to eliminate that and start with a clean slate.

Sam Brigger (10:30)

So Eddie is an interesting character because he can be very emotional, but he's also not really in touch with his emotions. Like, they kind of have their way with him.

Stephen Graham (10:40)

Yeah, yeah. And that's. There's a lot of pain inside Eddie, you know, when. After he realizes what his son has done. Because what it is as well was what I wanted to try and try and achieve and try and accomplish with the respects to Eddie is, like I said, that kind of old fashioned archetypal man in many ways, who, you know, comes from a lineage of men who are not very tactile. And that kind of comes from the process of. With my son and with my daughter, you know, I'm very blessed to have two beautiful children. And I hug them and cuddle them and I tell them I love them every single day, every single day. Because I adore my kids. I really do. You know, one of the best things, the best thing in my life I've ever been a part of. They really are. Do you know what I mean? Look. Yeah, Stephen's very soppy. And I wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm almost, you know, look, even just thinking of Grace and Alfie is making me start to tear. And I'm just ridiculous. They laugh at me all the time because I'm very teary and arrows. But what I wanted to do was to play the polar opposite of that. And one morning when I had Alfie and some of his mates were in his house, I was giving Alfie a cuddle because they were going out for the day. And I give him a cuddle, I give him a kiss on the cheek and I said, be good. Have a good day. Do you know what I mean? And his friend started to cry a little bit, and I was like, are you okay? And Alfie jumped in and said, his dad never hugs him, and his dad's never told him that he loves him. And it just broke my heart a little bit. Do you know what I mean? And I've seen him with his father and you can see the love his father has for him. And for me, it was completely alien. I thought there was no way that his father would have never done something like that, because to me, it was just such a natural thing that I don't even think about him.

Sam Brigger (12:32)

The show is gonna stay with me, I think, forever or a very long time. And it's really hard to watch. It's really well made, it's really compelling. But you go through a lot of very intense emotions, like you Have a complete breakdown at one point as an actor, how hard is that to go through? Is there an aftermath that you have to reckon with after doing that kind of performance?

Stephen Graham (13:02)

For a lot of people it is, yeah. And I understand it and I get it. And. And to some extent, I think maybe there is for me, I'm also able to. To jump in and jump out and decompress quite quickly now, which is a kind of technique I've learned myself over time.

Sam Brigger (13:18)

Do you have tools for that?

Stephen Graham (13:20)

Yeah, yeah. And those tools are. Well, the biggest tool for that is my wife, Hannah, on many levels. You know, if I phone her and say, it's been a really tough day at work today, love, you know, I had to stuff. She'd be like, oh, really? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go, oh, my. Do I sound like a. And she'd be like, yes. She'll go, well, I'll tell you what, the dog had diagnosed, of course. Yeah. But she understands it and she does it. And, you know, if there's anyone that can dive into emotions when they're on set, it's Hannah. She's unbelievable. She's great. So when I try and do it, Sam, she just goes, oh, well, the dog had diarrhea all over the carpet this morning. And I'm like, oh. And she went. And I had to go shopping, and the car ran out of petrol while I was on the motorway. And I'm like, cry me a. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of where she goes. But again, you know. And I got. And I know, look, for me, family is the most important thing to me. It's. It's. It's them. They're my rock, that they make me the man who I am. Do you know what I mean? I am here because of them mainly as well. And just to share this with you. And these are the tricks of the trade. On that last scene that. On that episode, it was the very last take. I think it was like take 12 or something like that. But it was the very final take 16. Oh, was it take 16. Wow. Okay. God. Yeah. We had to stop a couple of times. One, the door wasn't open when he was trying to back into the door with the camera, and so he just hit the window. There was a couple of times the car wouldn't start as we got it and as we set off. So there was. Yeah. Oh, then we got stuck at the traffic lights. That's right. So take 16. And what happened was, again, it was the last day and it was the Very last day of filming. So, again, my kids, both Grace, my daughter and Alfie, were there, and Hannah was there for that day and for that last take. When I go into the bedroom, I had no idea, Sam, that they'd done it. Honestly, I didn't. And I'd gone into that bedroom, obviously, 15 times. And so I had a kind of idea of what I was going to do and what I was going through. And Philip come up with a beautiful idea when we were in rehearsals. And he said, I'm just gonna put a teddy bear on the bed. And I was like, why? And he was like, just see what happens. So all the maternal instincts he felt for that teddy bear kind of just come from nowhere. Do you know what I mean? In many ways, because it's a replacement for his son. But anyway, when I came into the room, what Hannah and the kids had done, and this is the take that you see, so this is where it comes from as well. What? Hannah, I'm already in the moment. Don't get me wrong. I'm completely in the moment. But what my kids and Hannah had done, they put photographs on the wall of them and me, and they just put, we're so proud of you, dad. We love you so much. And. And obviously then you can imagine, I've told you, I'm a very soppy person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I just too.

Sam Brigger (16:08)

Just listen.

Stephen Graham (16:08)

Yeah, And I just went. Do you know what I mean? It was like. It just all came out. And then when I'd finished that particular senior, they grabbed all to me. And, yeah, they didn't let go of me for a while. And I did cry for quite a bit of time after that, actually. But we all cried on that set after that particular scene when we'd finished it.

Sam Brigger (16:28)

So just talking about the sort of technical issue, as I said, like, each of these episodes is one take. There's no editing. This is similar to a movie that you did a few years back called Boiling Point, which takes place in a restaurant. It's a great film, but it's one location. But here, like in this first episode, you start in the family home, and then you drive to the station. The camera's following you. And then you have to get all the other actors from the house to the station, like, talk about some of the technical things that you had to figure out.

Stephen Graham (17:04)

The beauty of this is where we have three weeks to shoot each episode. But what we do within that context is for the first week, we rehearse the script and we. We go through the script, like we're about to do a play.

Sam Brigger (17:17)

Because they are kind of like little plays. I mean.

Stephen Graham (17:19)

Yeah, yeah, of course. And that's the beauty of it, you know, but we rehearse the script and we go through the script and it was great because we had myself there and we had Jack the writer. So it was a beautiful position that we were in where we could tweak the language, we could adjust what was happening to our environment. And in the same respect, you know, me and Jack are not 14 year old boys, but we could ask Owen, what would he say in these particular situations?

Sam Brigger (17:46)

Owen Cooper, who plays your son, Jamie.

Stephen Graham (17:48)

Yes, yeah, that's right. Owen Cooper, who's phenomenal. But within that context, we could get to use the real authentic language. It's such a gift because you're able to marry both disciplines. So you have that spontaneity in the live kind of feeling and exhilaration of theatre. But you have the technical ability and the kind of nuance and the realism of. Of film and television acting. Right. But then also because of the technique of it being a one shot, you know, you're able, like in episode two to. To travel all around the school.

Sam Brigger (18:24)

Right, which was an actual location with hundreds of kids walking around.

Stephen Graham (18:28)

Yes. Yeah, it really was. And it was actually, you know, for I think, about 150 of our extras of the supporting artists. It was their school.

Sam Brigger (18:38)

Yeah.

Stephen Graham (18:38)

So that was great because they, you know, they know the place and they really felt at home. So in that first week we work on a script, and then the second week we work with all of the crew. All of the crew come on set and we negotiate and we begin to walk through our pathway of what we're gonna do and where we're gonna go and how we're gonna get there. And that's when you have everybody about. So, you know, you can. Then the sound department, they can plant mics here and there. So we really, really meticulously go over and over and over and. And the third week is when we begin to shoot. So we do two takes a day. So sometimes, you know, hopefully at the minimum, we will have 10 takes.

Sam Brigger (19:20)

10? 10 complete takes?

Stephen Graham (19:22)

Yeah. So we shot for five days and you do two takes a day. But as is with episode one, the take you see is take two. With episode two, the take we used was take 14.

Sam Brigger (19:38)

Would, you know, after doing all your takes that you were kind of leaning towards one that you would eventually use or.

Stephen Graham (19:43)

Well, I did, personally, I did on. I did on the first one. I knew it was the second take. I just knew it was. And I was kind of like, can we go home now? And Phil was like, no, look, we're being paid to be here for the rest of the week. And I said to Phil, it's not going to get better than that. And he was like, you never know. And I was like, trust me, that's it.

David Biancooli (20:05)

Actor Steven Graham speaking to FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger last March. Graham is co creator, co writer and star of the Netflix show Adolescence, which is nominated for 13 Emmy Awards, including three for Graham. I'm David Biancooli, and this is FRESH AIR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business. Without the go to shopify.com NPR military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players. They know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking. On sources and methods, NPR's new national security podcast, our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to Sources and Methods from npr.

Sam Brigger (21:03)

Stephen, I wanted to go back a little bit to one of your early successes, which is the movie this is England from 2006, and you play a racist and violent prone skinhead named Combo. And there's a pretty famous speech in the movie that's heavily infused with white nationalist ideology. And we're not going to play it because I think there's an F word in every sentence, so there'd just be like lots of bleeps. But, you know, I imagine in an acting career there's a lot of times where you have to like espouse beliefs as a character that you don't hold yourself. But I was wondering if this one may have been particularly hard, obviously, in part because it's just racist, but also because you have a multiracial background and and one of your grandfathers is from Jamaica. Like, did that make playing this character particularly difficult for you?

Stephen Graham (22:04)

It didn't make it particularly difficult, but what it did make me want to do and as well when I explained to Shane, because originally when I went.

Sam Brigger (22:14)

Shane Meadows, who's the Shane Meadows?

Stephen Graham (22:16)

Yeah. Who's the fantastic director? When I explained to Shane that I was mixed race, I kind of thought that he might then give the part to somebody else because we'd we'd had auditions and we did a bit of a workshop. And Andrew Shim, who plays Milky, who's The. The black character who's part of the gang as well. We. We endured in the improvisation, as you can imagine. You know, I. I went to some extremes with the language that I used, and I never said anything to anyone. But that night I managed to get. I managed to get Andrew's phone number, and I phoned him up and I said, look, I just want to apologize for the language and for the things that I said to you today. I want you to know that that's not the way I think. It's not me at all, and I hope you can understand. I said, and to be completely honest with you, I'm mixed race. And he was like, really? I said, yeah. He went, I thought so. I thought there was something. And I was like, but can you do me a favor? And he went, what? I went, please don't. And I was about to say, don't tell Shane. He shouted, shane. Shane. And I was like, oh. Oh, no. And then he gave the phone to Shane, and Shane was like, hello. Hello, mate. And I was like, all right. And he went, what is it? And I was like, look, Shane, I just wanted to say, I've just told Shimmy, look, I'm mixed race. You're probably gonna want to give the part to somebody else now. And I understand that. And he was like, are you kidding me? I went, no, I'm just. He was like, this is amazing. He said, imagine what we can do with it now. I went, what do you mean? He went, well, we can take it somewhere else now. We can take it somewhere else that we. To taking it. And then we did. You know, we really worked on it. And what it became about was it became more about an abandonment issue from his father and kind of not being accepted or not being a part of the identity of his. Of his self and the black part of his family. So we added such a complexity to it then.

Sam Brigger (24:17)

You grew up just outside of Liverpool in Kirby, and did you have to deal with issues of racism as a child coming from a mixed family?

Stephen Graham (24:27)

Yeah, yeah. And if I'm honest here, from both sides. I had a little struggle of my own back then, trying to find a sense of where and how I belong.

Sam Brigger (24:38)

You mean your identity? Your identity, sort of your racial identity?

Stephen Graham (24:41)

Yeah, completely, culturally, racially, in many ways, you know what I mean? Because there were certain elements of my white cousins and on that side of my family who said some horrible things and, you know, even other family members said some horrible things and said some really horrible things to my mother at the time. And then on the side of the black family. You know, things were said to me and said to my mother as well, in a horrible sense, from both sides of it. So it did take a while and it kind of, you know, it's maybe in my early teens. I'm not saying that that's what my life was like all the time, because it was very happy and joyous, you know, my household, my mom living. But it was just me and my mum for the first 10 years. And I adore my mother, God bless her soul. She. She was, you know, she was the mate, she was the strong matriarch, and she was a wonderful woman. And my pops came into my life when I was 10.

Sam Brigger (25:38)

Your stepfather?

Stephen Graham (25:39)

Yeah, my stepfather. He is my stepfather. You know, he raised you.

Sam Brigger (25:43)

He was.

Stephen Graham (25:43)

Yeah, he raised me. He raised me. He, you know, and he's mixed race as well. So he really taught me about my sense of identity and who I am and where I'm from and taught me about the likes of Marcus Garby and Toussaint Loboture and Malcolm X, Martin Luther King. So he filled me with the history and the knowledge of who I was. Do you know what I mean? In many ways. And then he also inspired me and led me to believe that anything is possible and to follow my dreams. But as a kid growing up, there was, you know, at times it was difficult and it took a little while for me to find my sense of self and for me to be completely comfortable with who I am, really, do you know what I mean, in that respect, which I, you know, I sit with inside myself of who I am today, and I'm completely comfortable with myself. But it takes a long time.

Sam Brigger (26:34)

I think you said your stepfather helped you sort of with your cultural and racial identity. He also helped you when you told your family you wanted to be an actor. Do you have this great story of him taking you to the video store and renting, like, all these great movies?

Stephen Graham (26:54)

Like.

Sam Brigger (26:54)

Yeah, yeah, he did Taxi Driver and Deer Hunter.

Stephen Graham (26:58)

Taxi Driver, the Deer Hunter and the Godfather. And it was kind of. That's where my. The beginning of my love affair for filmmaking started and the art and the craft of what it is. Do you know what I mean? And then he introduced me to. To the likes of David lynch and Kurisawa and, yeah, Martin Scorsese. Do you know what I mean? All of these great directors. Ken Loach as well, Alan Clark, you know, I got a real great education from my pops because my pops has always loved film. And that's kind of where it began for me. And then, you know, me, him and my mum used to always go, we'd go like to the Tate and to art. And he made me look at art and things differently. You know, my childhood was beautiful. I loved it. You know, we'd go, we'd go to to the galleries and stuff like that, me and my mom, do you know what I mean? I'm a mum. We'd walk around and we'd look at paintings and they just filled my head full of culture, do you know what I mean? And, and yet I came from this housing estate and from a block of flats, but yet they made me dream big and they made me see.

Sam Brigger (28:07)

You lived in a public housing apartment.

Stephen Graham (28:09)

Yeah, that's where I kind of grew up in the very beginning.

David Biancooli (28:14)

Stephen Graham speaking to FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger last March. Graham stars in the Netflix show Adolescence, which is nominated for 13 Emmy Awards, including Graham for outstanding Lead actor in a limited or anthology series or movie. They'll continue their conversation after a break. This is FRESH air. Hey, everybody, it's Ian and Mike, the.

Stephen Graham (28:36)

Hosts of how to Do Everything. That's the show where we take your.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (28:39)

Questions and find overqualified experts to answer them.

David Biancooli (28:42)

Alex asked us to write his out.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (28:44)

Of office office email message, but we don't know how to write, so we.

Stephen Graham (28:47)

Called up US Poet Laureate Ada Limon. Is this National Public Radio? Sort of technically, yes. Season two just dropped. Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast from NPR on How to Do Everything.

David Biancooli (29:00)

We take your questions and find phenomenal.

Stephen Graham (29:02)

Experts to answer them because we love you.

David Biancooli (29:05)

Elizabeth asked us how do I exercise.

Stephen Graham (29:07)

While I'm in my car?

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (29:08)

And because we love Elizabeth, we rang.

Stephen Graham (29:10)

Up our our favorite bodybuilder turned actor.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (29:13)

Turned governor turned actor.

Sam Brigger (29:15)

Hello, Arnold hello.

Stephen Graham (29:16)

We're here to talk to you today from npr. Very nice.

Sam Brigger (29:19)

Season two just dropped.

Stephen Graham (29:21)

Listen to how to Do Everything from npr.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (29:23)

This message comes from Ritual.

Stephen Graham (29:25)

What makes Ritual vitamins different?

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Ritual vitamins are made with bioavailable, clinically studied key ingredients and a patented nutrient delivery system that aims to help your.

Stephen Graham (29:36)

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Ritual's essential multivitamins are made with you and your body in mind and backed.

Stephen Graham (29:43)

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Sam Brigger (29:58)

Like an impossible stretch to you that one day you would be, you know, on a Martin Scorsese movie set with Al Pacino and Robert De Niro of course, the people you're watching on your television.

Stephen Graham (30:10)

Yeah. So my wall, most of my mates had, you know, soccer players, you call them football players. We call them over here, most of my mates and had football plays on their walls. And I did have. I had the FA cup winning side, Liverpool with Kenny Daglis, I had them on my wall. But then I also had posters and like little beautiful kind of postcards of Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, Daniel Day Lewis, Gary Oldman. Do you know what I mean? I had I. Pictures of all of the William Defoe, all of these actors on my wall. Do you know what I mean? So you can imagine as a young kid. And don't forget, it's not like I'm even in America. I'm right across the water in this little place called Liverpool and there are, you know, and they were on my wall, these people. So can you imagine what went through my head one, the first time when I met Martin Scorsese and I was lucky enough and privileged enough to be a part of gangs in New York. But then can you imagine what happened to Little Head when I was sat at the table with Marty at the monitor? Alp even saying it now, it just doesn't seem real. Martin Scorsese at the monitor, Robert De Niro and Al Pacino sat at the table and Marty says, okay, are we ready? And action. Can you just see for a split second what happened to that little kid's head?

Sam Brigger (31:34)

Yeah. Well, let's hear that scene. Let's.

Stephen Graham (31:36)

Let's hear. Oh, wow.

Sam Brigger (31:37)

You set that up quite well, Stephen Graham.

Stephen Graham (31:39)

Thank you.

Sam Brigger (31:40)

This is a scene from the Irish Irishman where you play a gangster and union head Tony Provenzano, who's known as Tony Pro, and you have a real beef with Jimmy Hoffa, who's played by Al Pacino. You were both in prison at the same time. You got in an argument there, but at this point, you're both out of prison. And Hoffa's trying to become the president of the Teamsters, but he needs your endorsement and he hates you, but he agrees to meet. And you guys are in Florida and. And Frank Sheeran, who's played by Robert De Niro, is there and you're late, and Al Pacino does not like that you're late.

Stephen Graham (32:22)

And it was traffic. Yeah, it's traffic. Wasn't it traffic? Yeah, give me traffic.

David Biancooli (32:27)

It's traffic. What do you want from us?

Stephen Graham (32:29)

It was bumper to bump. Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's bad, you know, traffic. I never waited for anyone who was late. More than 10 minutes in my life. I'd say 15. 15's right. No, 10. I don't think so. 10's not enough. You have to take traffic into account. That's. That's what I'm doing. I'm taking traffic into account. That's why it's 10. I still say 15. No, 10. Fine. We disagree on that.

David Biancooli (32:59)

How about 12 and a half minute?

Stephen Graham (33:00)

There we go. 12 and a half. Middle.

David Biancooli (33:02)

Right in the middle.

Stephen Graham (33:03)

Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. More than 10 is saying something. You saying something to me? I'm here. It says what it says. So there it is. Where do we go from here? What can I do for you? I want you. I. I want you to endorse me for. You know what. But before we get to that, let's straighten that other thing out. No, the other thing is none of my business. I can't do anything about your pension. I can't. Not with Fitz in there. Fitz is in there, you know. You go to Fitz. I did. He'll help you out. I did. Said he'll take care of it, no questions asked. You wouldn't do that. But he will. I meant the other thing. What other thing? You know. I don't know. Your apology. My apology? My apology for what? For what you said when you were sitting there eating your ice cream like some king. There was an ethnic slur. You people. Did you know what he said? No. I mean, I heard he had an altercation in the camp, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You people. That's what you said. Right, Jim? You people. Nor am I beneath you. Definitely. Jimmy. Jimmy, come on.

Sam Brigger (34:42)

That's Stephen Graham with some other famous actors, Al Pacino and Robert De Niro in the movie the Irishman. So, first of all, this is goodfellas caliber dialogue. You think I'm funny? Some of the Scorsese dialogue. I imagine if you're reading it on the page, it might seem really banal or boring, but the way that you have these great actors doing it, it's just so full of energy. Can you talk about that?

Stephen Graham (35:15)

Yeah, you're right. It's. You know, you have these great. You have the great dialogue on a script, and then it's kind of set up, and you rehearse and you play with it. And. And with this particular scene, it was. It was going good, but we. We cut some of the dialogue, but it was. It was going really good. And. But it. There was. There was still. It was lacking something. And. And Marty said to me, he was like, free it up a Little bit. And I was like, what? Can I improvise? And he went, yeah, just free it up a little bit. So previously, when we'd done a couple of takes, I was chatting and there was no dialogue coming from Frank. So Rob didn't have any dialogue. And I was kind of in my. Like I said to you before, don't forget, I'm a kid who's got posters of these people on this wall. Do you know what I mean? So I'm thinking to myself, I'm in a scene, and. And, you know, sometimes the strange thing about acting is your own head pops into your thought processes while you're doing the lines sometimes, which is really strange. Do you know what I mean? But it's just kind of one of those things that happen. So I'm. I'm talking with Al, and then I look around and I look. And in my head, my head goes, oh, this Robert De Niro. And I'm, like, just carrying on doing the scene, and then it. And then we carry on. And then. And then in my head, it goes, oh, no. I'm in a scene with Robert De Niro. And he doesn't say anything. It's like, ah. And then Marty said, free it up. Bring some life into it. And I was like, okay. So then that whole. And he comes up with the best line, that whole thing, about 15 minutes and 10 minutes. I just turned at one point because it's edited together beautifully as well. And I just turned at one point, and I said, what do you think, Frank? And he. You know, he didn't have any lines at all in the scene. And then he comes up with the finest line in the whole scene. He goes, maybe 12 and a half, you know what I mean? Down the middle. And then it became alive. I go to stand up and walk away, and they're like, no, no, no, Come on, sit down, sit down. And in that little bit where he says, you know, yeah, and the ethnic slayer. And I go, did you know about this? And he goes, well, I heard you had an altercation, so you kind of make it real and bring him into the scene. And after we'd finished, I went, no, I'm really sorry. Was that okay? Because I just. I just threw a few things, and they were like, what, you kidding me? No, it came alive. Did you feel that? And as you can imagine, for me personally, that's like my Champions League final. That particular scene being a part of that, you know what I mean? It blew my mind. And what I really, really, really took away from that particular day as well was the humility of both of those men and how they conducted themselves on set and how they treated everybody with respect. But also when it came to doing the work, they had no ego. And that's the biggest lesson any actor can ever learn from those two masters who were there at work.

Sam Brigger (38:10)

Stephen Graham, thank you so much for coming on FRESH air.

Stephen Graham (38:13)

Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

David Biancooli (38:17)

Stephen Graham speaking with FRESH AIR producer Sam Brigger last March. Graham stars in the Netflix drama Adolescence, which is nominated for 13 Emmy Awards. The Emmys are scheduled to be televised Sunday night on cbs. This is FRESH air.

Sam Brigger (38:32)

On the Throughline podcast from npr, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's.

Stephen Graham (38:41)

Second inauguration or even his first, a.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (38:45)

Series from Throughline about how immigration became.

Stephen Graham (38:48)

Political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

David Biancooli (38:57)

Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community, shorthand for how do we know what's real?

Stephen Graham (39:03)

Who told us?

David Biancooli (39:05)

If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new National Security podcast from npr, I'm Peter Sagal. NPR is very serious. Mostly it treats newsmakers with all due respect almost all the time. It brings you the most important information about the issues that really matter, usually. And it never asks famous people about.

Stephen Graham (39:34)

Things they don't know anything about, except once in a while.

David Biancooli (39:37)

Join us for the great exception.

Stephen Graham (39:39)

Listen to Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me the News quiz from npr.

David Biancooli (39:43)

Downton Abbey, the grand finale is the third and purportedly last film adapted from the beloved six season series about life at a British country estate in the early 20th century. The movie, which opens in theaters this week, finds many changes afoot at Downton in 1930, with a large ensemble of returning veterans joined by actors Paul Giamatti, Alessandro Nivola and Simon Russell Beale. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (40:14)

Ever since the events of Downton ABBEY Began in 1912, the characters haven't been able to stop talking about how quickly the world around them is changing. Paradoxically, the constant repetition of this idea has made the show and the movies feel comfortingly and sometimes annoyingly static. Sure, a lot has happened over six seasons and two a world war, an epidemic, inventions, revolutions, births, deaths, marriages, scandals and an awful lot of servant turnover. But the class constraints and gender roles of the era are still largely in effect. The winds of progress sure do take their sweet time. And so does the creator and screenwriter, Julian Fellowes, who's clearly reluctant to say goodbye to these characters or upend their world order too abruptly. And so we have a third movie, Downton, the Grand Finale, which sounds like a pretty definitive farewell, but who knows? Either way, it's much better than the previous movie. Downton, a new era, which felt smug and preposterous, even for a series that has always been unapologetically both. The new movie, directed by Simon Curtis, takes place in 1930. A portrait of the recently deceased Dowager Countess, the late, great Maggie Smith, hangs on one of the house's many walls. Even in death, she's still looking down on everyone. Lady Mary Crawley, the superb Michelle Dockery, is preparing to take charge of Downton, while her father, Robert, reluctantly steps into retirement with his wife, Cora. As succession dramas go, the Crawleys aren't exactly the Murdochs, but their plans do hit a snag when Mary ditches her absentee husband and immediately becomes a social pariah. Divorce is still frowned upon, and soon Mary can't get a dinner invitation to save her, otherwise still extremely enviable life. In this scene, Mary commiserates with her visiting American Uncle Harold, played by Paul Giamatti.

Stephen Graham (42:27)

So, let me guess. Robert is furious and Cora's sympathetic. Papa's miserable as much as angry, Ma'. Am.

Sam Brigger (42:34)

Cora's a Yankee. She knows society can learn to live with divorce.

Stephen Graham (42:37)

It'll be true here before too long, but it's not true yet. Still, Downton keeps me busy. What are you up to there? Mainly renovating the cottages and doing up the old smoking room. I thought a music room would be a wonderful memorial for both my grandmothers. It's a nice idea, even if my mother was more Gershwin than Rachmaninoff. It's a lot to get done, but that's where you come in. I really gotta go. Enjoy your dinner. Good night. Good night.

Podcast Hosts (Ian and Mike) (43:06)

Harold has problems of his own. He's mismanaged the estate of his and Cora's late mother, plunging Downton into a fresh wave of financial uncertainty. Right on the heels of the Depression, Harold has brought along an advisor, Gus Sambrook, played by Alessandro Nivola, with an oily smile that immediately puts you on high alert. Meanwhile, there are a lot of changes going on downstairs. Carson, the butler, is finally retiring, though he has mixed feelings about relinquishing his authority. The cook, Mrs. Patmore, is exiting with far more grace, proudly ceding control of the kitchen to her protege Daisy, played by the winning Sophie McShera. As the Crawleys are downsized and Lady Mary is ostracized, Fellows orchestrates a flurry of let's put on a show subplots. Plans are underway for the annual county fair, and Simon Russell Beale steals every scene as a glowering local snob who resists every effort to make the event more open to the community. And Dominic west is back as the dashing actor Guy Dexter, with his personal assistant and not so secret boyfriend, Thomas Barrow. The excellent Rob James Collier, surely the only former Downton footman ever to return to the place as an overnight guest. Best of all, they've also brought along none other than Noel Coward, played by Artie Fruchon, who does a droll impersonation of the great playwright. In one lovely scene, Coward sings and plays the piano for the Crawleys and their dinner guests while the servants listen from a distance. I was reminded of a near identical sequence from Gosford park, the manor House murder mystery that earned Julian Fellowes a screenwriting Oscar more than two decades ago. Gosford park was directed by Robert Altman, whose sharp democratic sensibility kept the material's classism in check. Downton Abbey, by contrast, has always drawn a warm bath of nostalgia for the heyday of the landed gentry, and the movies have leaned into this to the point of giving the downstairs characters short shrift. Here, though, Fellowes wisely course corrects, cutting back on the convoluted plotting and zeroing in on the emotional dynamics. Hugh Bonneville and Jim Carter have a moving moment in which Robert and Carson acknowledge their years of side by side leadership. Laura Carmichael also gets a few commanding scenes as Lady Edith, who's so often been at odds with her older sister Mary and now becomes her strongest ally. It's enough to make me want to see what happens next when Mary, raised in an era when noble estates couldn't be owned or inherited by women, is now fully in charge. I'm not asking for a fourth movie, but that could change. Things often do, as Downton Abbey always reminds us.

David Biancooli (46:07)

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Downton Abbey, the grand Finale on Monday's show. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Tremaine Lee explores the devastating toll of gun violence in America in his new book, A Thousand Ways to Die. Through Intimate Portraits, Lee shows how lost reverberates across families and communities, reshaping lives and futures, including his own. I hope you'll join to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Thea Chaloner. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld, and Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Ness. Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer for Terry Grose and Tonya Mosley. I'm David Biancooli.

Stephen Graham (47:46)

What's made you happy as of late.

David Biancooli (47:48)

On Pop Culture Happy Hour, we've been.

Stephen Graham (47:50)

Talking about the things that have made.

David Biancooli (47:52)

Us happy in the pop culture universe for the past 15 years. Whether it's a blockbuster or deliciously bad reality TV, the newest shows, dramas and.

Stephen Graham (48:01)

Reboots, we're here to keep your spirits high.

David Biancooli (48:04)

Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephen Graham (48:12)

Congress is back from its summer recess with a lot on its agenda. What's all in store for lawmakers and what does their work mean for you? Every weekday, the NPR Politics Podcast unpacks Washington's inner workings. Listen to the NPR Politics podcast on.

David Biancooli (48:28)

The NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

Stephen Graham (48:33)

On the TED Radio Hour podcast, psychologist.

David Biancooli (48:36)

And teen expert Lisa Damore says that.

Stephen Graham (48:38)

Despite all the scary statistics about kids and their mental health, are kids okay? Yep. And in some ways, actually, I would say in many ways, so much better than we ever were. How teens are coping with today's stressors and how adults can better support them. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.