Inside The 'Mad House' Of Congressional Disfunction

Summary

Fresh Air: Inside The 'Mad House' Of Congressional Dysfunction

Episode Release Date: March 25, 2025
Host: NPR (Terry Gross and Dave Davies)
Guests: Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater, Washington Correspondents for The New York Times
Book Discussed: Madhouse: How Donald Trump MAGA Mean Girls, a Former Used Car Salesman, a Florida Nepo Baby, and a Man with Rats in His Walls Broke Congress

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Introduction to the 118th Congress

The episode delves into the unprecedented dysfunction within the 118th Congress, highlighting its characterization as the first MAGA-controlled Congress. Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater provide an insider’s perspective on how extremism and theatrical politics have overshadowed serious legislative work.

Notable Quote:

“The House passed only 27 bills that became law in its two-year session, the lowest number since the Great Depression.”
— Annie Carney [04:23]

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Breakdown of Civility and Ad Hominem Attacks

A pivotal moment discussed is the heated hearing of the House Oversight Committee, showcasing the erosion of decorum. The interaction between Representative Jasmine Crockett and Marjorie Taylor Greene exemplifies the personal attacks that have become commonplace.

Notable Quote:

Marjorie Taylor Greene: “I think your fake eyelashes are messing up.”
— Transcript Excerpt [03:17]

Analysis: Annie Carney explains that such ad hominem attacks violate the congressional rule against "engaging in personalities," yet they continue to thrive, reflecting the broader decline in respectful discourse.

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Embrace of MAGA and Trump's Enduring Influence

The guests discuss how the MAGA movement has deeply infiltrated Congress, with Republicans emulating Donald Trump’s combative style. This alignment has led to a prioritization of viral moments over effective governance.

Notable Quote:

“MAGA will exist long after Donald Trump leaves the political arena.”
— Annie Carney [17:08]

Insights: Terry Gross highlights that members like Mike Johnson have become extensions of Trump’s agenda, diminishing the independence traditionally associated with congressional leadership.

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Influence of Steve Bannon and Elon Musk on Capitol Hill

The episode explores the roles of Steve Bannon and Elon Musk in shaping congressional actions. Bannon’s podcast acts as a strategic tool, directly influencing House Republicans by providing a platform that bypasses traditional media channels.

Notable Quote:

“He [Steve Bannon] was like a strategist and a stage parent.”
— Annie Carney [18:38]

Discussion: Elon Musk’s initiatives, such as the Doge caucus, and his direct interactions with members, further destabilize traditional political processes, aligning congressional actions more closely with corporate interests.

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Physical Threats and Escalating Violence

A concerning trend highlighted is the increase in physical threats among Congress members. Instances of members threatening each other reflect a severe decline in mutual respect and collegiality.

Notable Quote:

“If you do that again, I’ll knock you out.”
— Reported Incidents [10:08]

Context: Annie Carney notes that even within the same party, members like Kevin McCarthy and Eric Swalwell have exchanged violent rhetoric, signaling deep-seated tensions.

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Challenges of Congressional Life Leading to Attrition

The episode sheds light on the harsh realities of serving in Congress, contributing to high turnover rates. The demanding travel schedules, lack of work-life balance, and constant threats make the job untenable for many.

Notable Quote:

“It's broken and I'm killing myself for nothing.”
— Exiting Member Reflection [32:11]

Details: Members often resort to sleeping in their offices and forgo second residences due to financial strains and the high cost of living in Washington, D.C., exacerbating personal and professional stress.

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Internal Party Frictions and Leadership Struggles

The narrow Republican majority has empowered a faction of ultra-right members who resist party leadership, further paralyzing legislative processes. Mike Johnson’s rise to Speaker, heavily influenced by Trump, exemplifies this struggle.

Notable Quote:

“He [Mike Johnson] has no power without Trump.”
— Annie Carney [26:55]

Examples: The prolonged Speaker election process and Johnson’s need to align closely with Trump’s directives illustrate the internal conflicts undermining effective leadership.

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Future Implications and the Path Forward

The guests express skepticism about the Democrats' strategy to engage in similar combative tactics, suggesting that it has not resonated well with voters. The enduring influence of MAGA poses a long-term challenge for bipartisan cooperation and governance.

Notable Quote:

“It's a successful way to win primaries on the right is to be the loudest, the biggest fighter, the most extreme.”
— Annie Carney [08:49]

Conclusion: The episode concludes with reflections on the systemic issues plaguing Congress, emphasizing the need for structural reforms to restore functionality and reduce partisan animosity.

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Final Thoughts

Madhouse provides a comprehensive examination of the chaotic dynamics within the 118th Congress, revealing how personal vendettas, external influences, and ideological extremism have collectively hindered legislative progress. Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater offer a critical lens on the future of American governance, underscoring the urgency for meaningful change.

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Transcript

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from Capella University.

[Annie Carney]

With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can.

[Terry Gross]

Set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule.

[Annie Carney]

A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.

[Terry Gross]

Edu.

[Dave Davies]

This is FRESH air. I'm Dave Davies. If you follow the news, you know these are strange and turbulent times in Washington. As the Trump administration sinks to shrink and recast the federal government with blinding speed and fury. Trump's opponents would no doubt like to see Congress assert its authority to stop the dismantling of agencies and programs its past members have authorized. We haven't seen much of that, but we have seen bills introduced to enable a third Donald Trump term, rename Della's airport after him, and carve his image into Mount Rushmore. Whatever happens, our two guests today have the experience, insight and sources to tell the story. And Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater are both veteran reporters who cover Washington for the New York Times. And they've written a new book about the 118th Congress, the one elected in 2022. It's a look inside the corridors of power when Democrat Joe Biden was president, dealing with what the authors say was the first MAGA controlled Congress, one that fully adopted the extremism and stagecraft of Trumpism. There are fascinating accounts of high stakes negotiations and of House members cursing, insulting and threatening each, but not a lot of serious legislating. The House passed only 27 bills that became law in its two year session, the lowest number since the Great Depression. Before joining the New York Times In 2018, Annie Carney worked at Politico, the New York Daily News and the New York Post. Luke Broadwater worked for nearly a decade at the Baltimore sun, where he won a Pulitzer Prize for stories about a scandal at the state's largest hospital system that led to the resignation of Baltimore's Mayor Carney. And Broadwater's new book is Madhouse How Donald Trump MAGA Mean Girls, the Former Used Car Salesman, the Florida Nepo Baby, and a Man with Rats in His Walls broke Congress. We recorded our conversation yesterday. Annie Carney, Luke Broadwater, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Annie Carney]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, thank you.

[Dave Davies]

That is a colorful title. And I thought we would begin with an audio clip of a moment in 2024 which kind of captures some of the craziness of this particular Congress and its breakdown in civility. This was a hearing of the House Oversight Committee where the ostensible purpose was to consider a motion to hold Attorney General Merrick Garland in contempt of Congress. The sound we'll hear, you might have heard it before. It's a little confusing at moments. We'll hear eventually from Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, but it begins when Texas Democrat Jasmine Crockett is criticizing Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene. And Greene makes an insulting comment about Crockett's eye makeup. Let's listen.

[Annie Carney]

Do you know what we're here for? You know we're here. I don't think you know what you're here for. Well, you the ones talking about. I just. I think your fake eyelashes are messing up. Ain't nothing. Hold on, hold on.

[Terry Gross]

Order, point.

[Dave Davies]

I do have a point of order.

[Annie Carney]

And I would like to move to.

[Dave Davies]

Take down Ms. Green's words. That is absolutely unacceptable.

[Annie Carney]

How dare you. Are your feelings hurt? Her words down. Oh, oh, oh, girl. Baby girl. Oh, really? Don't even play, baby girl. We are going to move and we're.

[Dave Davies]

Going to take your words down. I second that motion.

[Annie Carney]

I'm just curious just to better understand your ruling. If someone on this committee then throws. Starts talking about somebody's bleach, blonde, bad.

[Luke Broadwater]

Built, butch body, that would not be.

[Annie Carney]

Engaging in personalities, correct? A what now, Chairman? I make a. I make a motion to strike those words. I don't think that's trying to find clarification on what quality.

[Terry Gross]

Motion to strike what you just said.

[Annie Carney]

We're not gonna. We're not gonna do this. Look, you guys, earlier, literally just, you.

[Dave Davies]

Just, you just voted good times under the Capitol dome.

[Terry Gross]

That was an insane night.

[Dave Davies]

Yeah. Well. So either of you can pick this up, but just tell us a little, give us some context for this and what it tells us about this Congress.

[Annie Carney]

Well, first of all, let's remember this is a hearing that's happening at night to start with. And why is it happening at night? Because some of the members who are on this committee had spent their work day that day in Manhattan outside of the federal courthouse where Trump was on trial, defending him because a gag order prevented him from speaking for himself. So it's already a little emotional. Different vibe. When you start a hearing at 8pm Famously, like anything that starts in the evening, in Congress, many people are drunk. There's something called the drunk caucus that other members refer to. Leadership is always wary of scheduling votes at night because drinking is a problem.

[Dave Davies]

Sorry to interrupt, but I read this in the book, and I was astonished to read this. Really?

[Annie Carney]

Yes. Among people who work in the Capitol and reporters, it's like, not a revelation. Everyone just knows this. But it is a revelation to most People who don't. So anyway, this is starting at night, when you were playing that clip, I just couldn't help but thinking that everyone is being peak themselves in that moment. Ostensibly, who even remembers what this hearing was about? What happens here is that Greene makes what Crockett thinks is a racist attack, kind of making fun of her eyelashes, which Crockett, in an interview later told us she's seen those attacks online. It's like a ghetto girl thing. And Marjorie Taylor Greene was picking up a loaded comment to make a comment about her and all the crazy things that Greene has said during her time in Congress. Talking about eyelashes might really not rank up there. But there is one hard and fast rule that you can't do. Face to face ad hominem attacks. It's known as, quote, unquote, engaging in personalities. So there's not a lot of rules in Congress, but she actually can't engage in personalities. And this was an ad hominem attack. So they go after Greene. And when Jasmine Crockett comes up with her famous now line, she smartly phrases it as a question. So it's not actually a direct ad hominem attack at Greene. So they're all kind of playing a game here. And one interesting thing is you can hear AOC getting pretty heated here. And in some ways, this was a moment that Greene wanted. Greene is constantly wanting to engage with aoc. She wants to get into it with the most famous House Democrat. And usually AOC does not take the bait. But in this clip, you can hear she gets to her. She takes the bait. She gets into a heated back and forth with Greene, which is kind of what Greene wants here.

[Dave Davies]

Right? Calls her baby girl.

[Annie Carney]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. I mean, in some ways, this was the real moment when the Democrats in the House embraced the Republican style of politics. During this Congress, the first Congress controlled by the MAGA movement, pretty much every Republican who got themselves on TV did so by emulating the style of Donald Trump. And Democrats had always believed in Michelle Obama's axiom, which was, when they go low, we go higher. And Jasmine Crockett clearly decided, when they go low, we go lower, and we're gonna fight them down in the mud. And, you know, it sort of typified and exemplified everything that this Congress became. And that is dysfunctional. Ceding power to Trump, really just fighting to fight to make viral moments.

[Annie Carney]

Right. And whether going lower is an improvement or not is a matter of opinion. Whether this was like a great moment for Democrats or not is really a matter of opinion. But usually when Things go viral online. It's not a great sign for the functionality of Congress. And, you know, in this case, no one even remembered what the hearing was ostensibly about.

[Dave Davies]

You know, it's interesting because I remember in the book where you describe this shift in strategy by Democrats. We're not going to sort of stay above the fray. We are going to engage and give it right back to them. And part of the theory was that Republican members think about what their future careers will be like if they have embarrassed themselves and adopted things which, you know, defy reality or decorum. Did that strategy work at all?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So I don't believe it has worked. According to the election results, it seems that voters actually like the fisticuffs. They like Donald Trump's brand of politics. Certainly in these red districts, they like it. And this is a successful way to win primaries on the right is to be the loudest, the biggest fighter, the most extreme. That gives you a loyal, loving fan base on the right. And so, you know, what we're seeing now in the Democratic Party is, I think there's a desire among the populace for the Democrats to become more of the party of fighting and not the party that plays by, you know, Robert's Rules and keeps things super professional.

[Dave Davies]

You know, one other thing that I just a general observation about the account of this Congress that you provide us is how many times there are physical threats among members. And I mean, in many cases, leaders of Congress, things, you know, you know, say that again and I'll kick your you know what, or I'll drop you. You both have been around a while. I mean, Luke, I know you covered City hall and the Maryland legislature. You ever seen, seen anything like this?

[Terry Gross]

Not like this. I mean, the. You're right. That was a striking revelation as well. We would often go back to people and ask them what happened in this room or that room. And time after time, they would recount how somebody said something to them and they would say, you know, if you do that again, I'll knock you out or some other sort of threat. And some of these examples that played out on the House floor, Eric swalwell and Kevin McCarthy coming up to each other and using the P word. Right. You had Tim Burchett and Kevin McCarthy in the hallway.

[Annie Carney]

You had Tim Burchett and Patrick McHenry on the floor. A lot of it is Republican on Republican, not just intra party feuds.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Oftentimes it's members of the same caucus even getting into it with each other. Obviously, we talked about Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene and why they hate each other so much. One thing that I learned in that scene with Jasmine Crockett in the oversight room is going back and reporting it later is that Lauren Boebert is actually the preferred Republican of the Democrats, that they see her as much easier to work with. And actually she, she has friendships on the left. When her grandchild was born, Jamie Raskin, of all people, sent her a baby gift that said, I may take a lot of naps, but I'm still woke.

[Dave Davies]

Reporters are sometimes criticized for revelations in books that people wish they had read in the newspapers. As you did this, did you put some of this stuff in the paper or did you mostly save it for the book?

[Annie Carney]

We did. I think that along the way I found reporting the book a great help to my day job writing about Congress for the New York Times. I got a lot of daily stories out of book reporting. But you can also, you're doing interviews under embargo. So people are willing to tell you things that they wouldn't tell you for the daily paper when you say this is not for use until March 2025. So I think that criticism, I understand why it's made, but it's not really fair. A lot of stuff isn't available in real time, and I think it's valuable to have it out eventually for history, for understanding the moment better, but it's just simply not available to use in real time. So would you rather have it never or would you rather have it later? And the book is the later. So sometimes we would be able to peel off stuff and ask sources, is it okay if I use this now? But it's up. The agreement when you do these interviews is that it's embargoed for the book and you can't really violate that agreement.

[Dave Davies]

Well, I want to talk about what's going on these days in the Capitol. I mean, your book deals with the two year period that ended, I guess, in January. But boy, a lot's happening right now. And Democrats are trying to figure out how to deal with Donald Trump, who is riding a wave and with his team trying to reshape government in dramatic fashion. And there are real divisions within the Democratic Party on what to do about it, how to handle it. You've written about how the Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer, kind of has a take it all on approach, you know, respond to everything, whereas Hakeem Jeffries, the leader of the Democrats in the House, kind of picks his battle, I guess a difference in emphasis. I'm wondering what you are hearing from rank and file Democrats in Congress about this debate.

[Annie Carney]

Frustration. I think, you know, right now what's happening is Chuck Schumer has become the bogeyman of the Democratic Party among rank and file House Democrats and among voters for just emotion and frustration at just wanting to do more, wanting to fight back. And this is because last week he voted with Republicans to stave off a government shutdown. If Democrats had not joined Republicans in the Senate, we would be in a government shutdown right now. And Chuck Schumer has been defending this decision for the past week, saying that would have been much, much worse. Elon Musk and Donald Trump wanted a shutdown. It would allow them to decide which programs are essential and not essential and therefore never bring them back. His example that he's been talking a lot about is SNAP food stamps. They could just say during a shutdown this is not essential. And during a shutdown there's no court check. So that could just go away. So on the merits, there's a good argument there. It's understandable why he did what he did. On the politics, there was white hot anger at caving to Donald Trump. One day he said he was going to stand up and be against it, the next day he voted for it. So he's under a lot of pressure right now. I think the issue with that's going on right now is there was not a lot of explaining that a short term government spending bill in March of 2025 is not the fight. People want to know what is the fight? Where are we going to have an opportunity to stand up to Republicans? This looked like one of the few times when Democrats had a role to play and they caved. Chuck Schumer's been hammered by Nancy Pelosi. Jeffries has been not really supportive. He was asked, do you have confidence in Schumer's leadership? And he said, next question. So there's a lot of intensity right now between the House and the Senate. You've seen Bernie Sanders and AOC out there doing these huge rallies over the past few days. I mean, they don'tit's not clear yet what Democrats are doing, but there's obviously such a huge, deep desire to do more than their leaders are currently doing.

[Terry Gross]

And people feel that Schumer is out of step with the moment. You know, he sat for us for the book and he told us these are his words, that once the Republican Party removes the turd of Donald Trump, it will go back to being the old Republican Party. And he described Donald Trump as Being sort of an evil sorcerer, in his words, that had sort of cast a spell over Republicans and Republican voters. And what we really discovered reporting this book is that every member of the House Republicans that we talked to had embraced the MAGA movement and made it their own. It was not solely the function of Donald Trump anymore. And they had taken it in some instances, even further to the right than where Donald Trump is with maga. And so our belief is, having done all these interviews, that MAGA will exist long after Donald Trump leaves the political.

[Dave Davies]

And there's plenty of evidence in stories you tell in the book that if people forget the MAGA base, they will pay for it. And so it's not just Donald Trump, it's the people who have come to believe.

[Annie Carney]

Right? Another thing that's developed is it's not just Donald Trump. In fact, there's a whole right wing ecosystem that does the work for him of threatening, of making you fall in line. He really doesn't need to anymore be the one to threaten you with a primary challenge if you don't vote the way he wants you to vote. There's Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and this whole ecosystem that knows the playbook and doesn't need direction. So it kind of just exists on its own now.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Two of the, I guess we could call them characters in the book were Steve Bannon and Russell Vogt, who now are wielding even more influence in the Trump administration. And we document in this book how they were able to sort of dictate how things were happening on Capitol Hill through their allies in the House Republicans, and also through their influence, especially on Bannon's podcast. He was able to text directly with members and acted in some cases like a stage parent, sort of coaching them on how to approach certain situations to get the most MAGA outcome.

[Dave Davies]

You know, people know of Steve Bannon. They may know he has a podcast, but it's a four hour daily podcast. Is this right?

[Annie Carney]

He's recording four hours every weekdays and two hours every weekend. And what he's really doing, his recording studio is in his basement, which is about a stone's throw from the Capitol. And he allows these far right members that he agrees with to come on and he gives them a platform. They raise money there. Like he asks, like, where do you send donations? He prompts them multiple times during an interview. He gives them a platform that allows them to circumvent, usually how you gain power in Washington, which is through leadership, through the leadership suites and lobbyists and mainstream media. This circumvents that this is just directly to the base. And he gives them this huge platform. And there's just this constant stream back and forth between Bannon's house and the House floor. They just walk back and forth. He worked a lot closely with Matt Gaetz on unseating Kevin McCarthy. He was like a strategist and a stage parent. So that is a whole new ecosystem that's helping the far right members.

[Dave Davies]

We're going to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Luke Broadwater and Annie Carney. Both are correspondents for the New York Times. Annie Carney covers Congress. Luke Broadwater covers the White House. Both of them were deeply involved in covering the last Congress, and they have a new book about it. It's called Madhouse How Donald Trump MAGA Mean Girls, A former used car salesman, a Florida Nepo baby and a man with rats in his walls Broke Congress. They'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH air.

[Annie Carney]

This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions and get a real offer in seconds.

[Terry Gross]

Go to Carvana.com today.

[Annie Carney]

Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesper, digital producer at FRESH air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is.

[Terry Gross]

Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan.

[Dave Davies]

I read it every Saturday after breakfast.

[Annie Carney]

The newsletter includes all the week shows.

[Terry Gross]

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[Annie Carney]

It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.

[Terry Gross]

So [e-mail] fresh air, and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

[Dave Davies]

You know, Annie Carney, you were saying that I think you both mentioned this, that there were cases in the last Congress where there were Republicans who publicly towed the MAGA line and were good soldiers, but that privately had serious qualms about it. And I'm wondering if you are hearing privately from Republican members these days whether they're worried about the cuts that the administration is making through Elon Musk and Doge and, you know, the effect of tariffs. Are they concerned about what this is going to do to Republicans popularity?

[Annie Carney]

Yes. I mean, vulnerable Republicans are very scared. Our colleague Katie Edmondson did a profile of David Valadao, a very vulnerable member from California who, I mean, a huge percentage of his state is on Medicaid. So this idea, this threat that they're going to cut Medicaid is very worrisome for some Republicans across the country. And we've seen some senators trying to support Doge in abstract but trying to defend against cuts in their state. So they're scared because the cuts in their state could lead to them losing their jobs. We've also seen senators like Thom Tillis in North Carolina try and find a way not to support some of these most controversial cabinet nominees. Thom Tillis went to great lengths to try and find a way to vote against Pete Hegseth for defense secretary. And ultimately it was too hard and he fell in line. Joni Ernst, too, is of Iowa. She's a survivor of sexual assault, has a military background, expressed concerns about Pete Hegseth, and the right wing echo chamber threatened a primary challenge and she fell in line. So we've seen tiny attempts to break with the party line and those who want a political future, who care about getting reelected eventually cave. There's not a lot of room for that right now. But certainly vulnerable Republicans are very concerned about potential Medicaid cuts that would be deeply unpopular with their voters.

[Dave Davies]

I'm wondering how they feel about Elon Musk generally. I mean, he came in and got ahold of the payment system and the Treasury Department and was able to essentially, as he said it, put aid in the wood chipper. The Agency for International Development. How do they view his role?

[Terry Gross]

I mean, it looks to me like they are embracing Elon Musk and his mission very much so. Each chamber has set up its own Doge caucus and they are trying to implement his cuts into their various spending plans. When he comes to Capitol Hill, he gave out his private cell phone number to members. He has tried to court people individually and you know, he's posing for pictures. But Elon Musk, his polling is much lower than Donald Trump's. The public at large does not feel the same way they feel about Trump as they do with Elon Musk. And Democrats, I believe, are focusing in on him as perhaps their best target. He wasn't elected. He's extremely rich. They know that there's a lot of populist anger against the wealthy. And so if the richest man in the world who has all these contracts with the federal government is coming in, slashing the jobs of regular workers, and there are federal workers not just in D.C. but all over the country, you can see how that could be a potent political weapon for Democrats to wield.

[Dave Davies]

Trump has a big agenda of tax cuts coming apart from all of all that he's doing to restructure the government. You know, he wants to make the tax cuts that were made in the last administration permanent and that's probably going to have a big impact on the deficit, increasing it. How does that look to play in the Congress?

[Terry Gross]

I think that that is one of the very salient points that you've made. As Elon Musk and Doge are cutting small agencies and saving pennies on the dollar, the House Republicans are planning to extend these tax cuts and they're planning to raise the debt by $4 trillion. And so there's a bit of discordant notes within the Republican Party about how much they actually care about the debt because the bigger actions they're taking are going to increase the debt. And, you know, one could see, you know, dismantling the Department of Education and dismantling USAID and laying off probationary workers as, you know, very, very small dollar figures compared to the amount of debt that they are going to be increasing. And so, you know, I don't know how Republican voters process that. It seems that many care about the debt when it's under a Democrat, but don't care when it's under a Republican. But this Congress is planning to raise the debt significantly.

[Dave Davies]

Let me reintroduce you again. We are speaking with Andy Carney and Luke Broadwater. Both are correspondents for the New York Times. Their new book about the last Congress is titled Madhouse. We'll talk more after this short break. This is FRESH air. One of the reasons that the last Congress that you wrote about was so chaotic was that Republicans had a majority, but a very narrow one and you had about 20 or so members who simply were going to follow their own dictates and couldn't be persuaded by Kevin McCarthy or anybody else to do what the leadership wanted. Who were they? What were they after?

[Annie Carney]

So, yeah, I mean, that is the basic issue of the last Congress and this Congress is that when you have a tiny majority, any member can throw themselves in the mix and make themselves the deciding vote. And in the last Congress it gave this group of the 20 who are far right members outsized power. And I think that one of the best examples of how further right the House was than the country was was during those three weeks when they could not elect another Speaker. One of the people going for it was Tom Emmer. He's been in leadership for a long time. He's from Minnesota. He at some point when he was a state legislator voted for same sex marriage when he was up running for speaker of the House. This position was a non starter for a lot of these deeply Christian red state congressmen who got up and said to him, you don't need to get right with me, you need to get right with God. And I can't support you for speaker if you took that vote. Now this was like remarkable to me because this is a moment when like you can't get elected president. Like same sex marriage is broadly popular with Republicans and Democrats alike across the country. You couldn't be elected president by being anti same sex marriage, probably. But in the House, which is pulled right by this small faction, you can't get elected speaker with that position. These people wielded outsized influence and they're socially conservative, they're fiscally conservative, they're mostly pro Trump. And that's who really kind of decided how the House functioned last year, or more likely did not function. In our book, we document how Mike Johnson plotted his way to the speakership. He likes to say it just sort of landed in his lap. But you don't become the most powerful person in Congress by accident or by just praying. He was strategizing from January about maybe there's a path for him and he and his very canny chief made it happen. But now his entire ticket to power is Trump and he has acted more like a junior member of the White House staff than as a leader of a co equal branch of government. Cuz he has no power without Trump. The way he gets his members to fall in line on a bill he needs them to vote for is to say, well, you don't agree, you're going to have to call the president.

[Dave Davies]

Right. And he's done a complete 180 on Ukraine. I mean, one of the things that you describe is when Biden was still in office and they wanted to get that military aid package for Ukraine done, that Mike Johnson actually quite skillfully negotiated an arrangement where he could make that happen.

[Annie Carney]

Yes, we wrote a lot about. There was a lot more behind the scenes going on of Johnson working secretly in a very with the White House to get this done.

[Dave Davies]

The Biden White House.

[Annie Carney]

Right, the Biden White House. Like he, his chief of staff would meet with a top Biden adviser late at night in a dog park in their neighborhood and trade paper folders because they didn't want anything in writing. They thought that if these hard right members got wind of what they were doing, it would fall apart. So he was really working to get this deal done. He had been convinced by the intelligence that if Ukraine did not get financial support, Putin would steamroll across to Poland and then we would have to get involved in a war. And he made the case, and he did finally bring a funding bill to the floor. At the time, this was seen as fairly remarkable in the same way that Mike Pence was remarkable in that you're not really doing anything particularly remarkable. You're literally doing your job, which was bring a bill to the floor and see if it has the votes to pass. But in a moment, with the pressure on him, it seemed like he had actually stood up to the pressure. And at the time, Marjorie Taylor Greene was threatening to oust him, him from his job because of this. So he actually did, you know, at the time, make a hard decision, which was, I'm going to potentially risk my job to do what I think is the right thing. And now we saw him at the State of the Union, I actually couldn't help but knowing from our reporting all that he had done to secure Ukraine funding. When Trump, during his address to the joint session, was complaining about Ukraine funding, Johnson was shaking his head on the dais behind him like, I can't believe this. Terrible, terrible. And now he. The only way he defends what he did last year is to say, I set the table for Trump to end this war, but It's a complete 180 to fall in line with Trump's position.

[Terry Gross]

And in the book, we take you inside the room for a private one on one meeting between Marjorie Taylor Greene and Mike Johnson as she's trying to kick him out as speaker and he's trying to fund Ukraine. And the showdown between these two is pretty incredible. So I would encourage people when they get the book to read that chapter.

[Annie Carney]

He says to her, marjorie, have you ever been to Europe? And she says, no. And he says, have you ever served in the military? And she says, no. And he says, but you expect me to take your word for this over our generals, Four star generals, our guys, Trump guys. And she says, well, the American people know. And you would know if you weren't such a P word.

[Dave Davies]

Uh huh. Right. Those guys are all in a deep state now.

[Annie Carney]

Yeah. Yes.

[Dave Davies]

I found this section of the book interesting where you describe so many Republicans who are just leaving Congress, either not running for reelection or in some cases, quitting midterm. Apart from the difficulty of living in a world where if you don't fall in behind Trump, it's. It's awful. It just isn't a great gig, really. Which is surprising, you know, because, I mean, look, this is, this is a dream come true. You're a member of this body that Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy served in. Why was it a bad gig?

[Annie Carney]

Writing this book convinced me that being a member of Congress, maybe being a senator is a nicer gig. You're not always running for your election. A lot of them with their nice six year terms actually make a life in Washington and can live with their children and have some semblance of a normal life. But for these House members, it's a slog. First of all, there's the travel. I mean you are back and forth every week. If you live across the country, the jet lag and the travel is just crushing. Then there is not seeing your family. A lot of people when they leave, it always sounds like kind of a cop out or not the real reason. If you say like I want to leave to spend more time with my family, but it's not actually like not a factor. We talked to one Brad Wenstrup who left Congress last term and he said that like his 10 year old son would tell his wife, like it feels like dad doesn't even exist. So that takes a toll. We talked earlier about the physical violence and the threats has become huge. I mean that these members are under constant threats of violence and they don't have protection. If they want protection, they have to pay for it themselves from their campaign accounts. Not to mention then you're doing all this traveling and not having a regular family life and being threatened. And then you look at it and you're like, for what? When we're here, the House floor is frozen. We're not actually voting, we're sitting and taking 15 rounds. It took a week to elect a speaker. Like for what? So a lot of people just made the calculation like it's just not worth it anymore. I mean, it's broken and I'm killing myself for nothing.

[Dave Davies]

I was also just surprised to read that a lot of members sleep, don't rent apartments. They actually sleep in their offices and then shower in the, in the members gym.

[Annie Carney]

Well that's like a, I mean it saves money, you know, they don't. A lot of people can't have two residences and the office sleeping is a long time thing. It kind of got less popular during COVID and after the MeToo movement because it's an awkward thing to be like living in your office and having staffers walk in in the morning and you're like brushing your teeth. But people still do it to save money.

[Terry Gross]

It's kind of gross. But they, I mean they get paid $177,000, which I think to most people sounds like a lot money. But DC it's extremely expensive to live in DC and then you have a family back home and probably a house or a mortgage or at least an apartment back home. And so you have two residences. And it becomes kind of untenable for them to do on one salary. Unless you're independently wealthy, which many.

[Annie Carney]

Which a lot of them are. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

A lot of the members of Congress and a lot of the senators are extremely wealthy. But if you're somebody like AOC or somebody else who comes from smaller means, it does become quite difficult to also.

[Annie Carney]

I've spent a lot of time with some younger women, female members who just doing the job drives home every day for them that this was not created for me. Like, this was a job that was originally created for like older, white, wealthy men. It was not like, I spent some time with Marie Gluzenkamp Perez. She's from Washington State. So, like, her commute is horrible. She has a toddler. She lives in the woods. Every time she's on that flight back to Washington, leaving her kid, she's like, this job was not created with me in mind. So that's another factor of making these jobs just really. It takes a toll.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And if you want to bring it back to current events, I mean, there's a bill right now to try to allow women who have recently given birth right to to be able to vote remotely, which is currently disallowed under the current rules of Congress.

[Dave Davies]

That's a bill that's underachievering.

[Annie Carney]

They're trying. There's a bipartisan group who want maternity and paternity leave for new parents.

[Dave Davies]

Annie Carney, Luke Broadwater, thank you so much for speaking with us.

[Annie Carney]

Thank you for having us.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Thanks so much.

[Dave Davies]

Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater are Washington correspondents for the New York Times. Their new book is Madhouse How Donald Trump MAGA Mean Girls. A former used car salesman, a Florida Nepo baby, and a man with rats in his walls broke Congress. We recorded our conversation yesterday. Coming up, jazz historian Kevin Whitehead reviews a newly released recording of Ella Fitzgerald in concert. This is FRESH AIR. Jazz singer Ella Fitzgerald's concert career in the 1960s is amply documented on record with live albums from Berlin, Rome, Los Angeles, Tokyo, Hamburg, Stockholm and the French Riviera. Now comes a newly released concert of Ella in Oakland. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead says it's all right.

[Luke Broadwater]

Don't you cry, honey, don't you be that way. Clouds in the sky should never make you feel that way. The REH will bring the violet stomach tears Are in vain so honey, don't hold to be that way Ella Fitzgerald.

[Ella Fitzgerald]

1967, with a gaggle of Duke Ellington's horn playing on a tune she'd first recorded in the 30s. Don't be that way. It's from an Oakland Coliseum concert newly issued as the Moment of Truth. That momentous title suggests it was made at some crucial juncture for Ella and not at one more All Star roadshow on which Ellington also appeared, although that series was coming to an end. The Moment of Truth actually gets its name from her set's rather glib opening tune, a sort of swinging call to the altar.

[Luke Broadwater]

There will come a time when he looks at you, thrills you through and through and calls your name that'll be the day when you say I do for you Discover that you're too tired of playing a game and then you both know you're through scheming oh, promise me starts to sing in your ear you're wide awake boy, you're not dreaming. Then the more I made a Jewish.

[Ella Fitzgerald]

The Ellington horns again there playing what are two obviously not Ellington arrangements on their shared concerts. Duke often sat in on piano with Ella for a number, but he doesn't do so here. Duke loved her, but may have been pushing back against the high handed ways of concert promoter Norman Granz. Ella had her own complaints about the pace of work on Granz's European tours. By 1967, she was a showbiz star and could act the part, razzing audience members who arrive late or leave early and injecting a Sonny and Cher reference into the lyric to Cole Porter's Let's Do it. Still, at age 50, Fitzgerald remained one of the greatest interpreters of American popular song and a great stage performer. She'll go from one number's extravagant ending directly into the next song's gentle opening verse, instantly recalibrating.

[Luke Broadwater]

There's a very funny feeling that this feeling's been a stealing through my brain is not to be ignored but to really tell the truth Though I'm not a well known sleuth I honestly believe that you are bored you've changed. That sparkle in your eyes is gone.

[Ella Fitzgerald]

Fitzgerald was in fine voice in 1967. She can get a little shouty on excitable passages this the glass shattering Ella, if you will, and she has to reach for a few low notes. But she does reach them. Her middle range is as luxurious as ever. A highlight of her Oakland show is her lone recording of a 60s pop song Jazz singers took to right away. Burt Bacharach and Hal David's Alfie.

[Luke Broadwater]

I believe in love. Without true love we just exist. I'll fear until you find a love you never miss. You're nothing I'll fear.

[Annie Carney]

When you walk.

[Luke Broadwater]

Let your heart lead the way.

[Ella Fitzgerald]

Ella Fitzgerald's Alfie is so good it survives a short detour into and out of Dean Martin's you're nobody till somebody loves you. That isn't the only bizarre choice here. She also sings the flyweight, if insidiously catchy advertising jingle music to watch girls buy. Ella ends her set with a staple of her 60s act, Mack the Knife, where she, like so many 20th century Americans from all walks of life, felt the call to imitate singer Louis Armstrong's growling.

[Luke Broadwater]

The line foam singing a love hello, Dolly. Yes, look out there, Bobby Barrett, Me and your girl singing the same song as it.

[Ella Fitzgerald]

There's a whiff of Ellington feeling in the saxophone backgrounds there, but this music's not about the horn section. The pivotal Ellingtonian here is Duke's longtime drummer Sam Woodyard, who anchors Fitzgerald's trio the album the Moment of Truth. Ella at the Coliseum presents her 1967 Oakland set in concert order, omitting only a couple of tunes she'd recorded with Duke the year before, with her stage patter included. You get a good look at Ella Fitzgerald on the road, even if she wasn't at a crossroads.

[Luke Broadwater]

It's keeping track of the pack and watching them watching back that makes the world go around Watch that sound because they make the most connecting sighs they're making music to watch girls fight the girls watch the boys while the boys watch the girls who watch the boys go by I do I Together they convene to make the scene which is the name of the game Watch a guy watch a dame on every street in town up and down and over and across Romance is boss, guys talk, girl talk, it happens everywhere Eyes watch girls walk with tender love and care. It's keeping track of the pack or watching them watching back that makes the world go around.

[Dave Davies]

Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead reviewed the Moment of Truth Ella at the Coliseum on Verve. Kevin is the author of New Dutch Swing why Jazz? And Play the Way youy Feel on tomorrow's show. In a new book, Amanda Knox shares the difficulties she faced after being convicted and later acquitted of killing her roommate during a study abroad program in Italy. She'll also talk about her journey to reclaim her identity from the notorious tabloid stories that defined her for years. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram nprfreshair. Fresh air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sevyn Esper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave Davies.

[Annie Carney]

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