Jane Goodall

Summary

Fresh Air Remembers Jane Goodall

Podcast: Fresh Air (NPR)
Episode: Jane Goodall
Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Terry Gross

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air is a tribute to Jane Goodall, renowned primatologist and conservationist, who passed away at the age of 91. The show revisits highlights from two past interviews (1993 and 1999) between Goodall and host Terry Gross, tracing Goodall’s pioneering work with chimpanzees, her insights into human and animal behavior, and the profound impact of her research on science and conservation. The episode explores Goodall’s personal journey, her groundbreaking fieldwork, evolving views on animal intelligence, the intersection of motherhood and science, and her perspectives on violence and compassion in both chimpanzees and humans.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jane Goodall’s Early Days in Africa

[00:17 – 01:54, 08:10 – 10:55, 15:43 – 19:48]

• Goodall had no formal scientific training when she began her study of chimpanzees in East Africa, working initially as a secretary for Louis Leakey.
• With strong encouragement from her mother—who accompanied her for the first months as per British authorities’ requirements—she established her reputation through patience, trust, and meticulous observation.
• Goodall’s unconventional style, such as naming chimps rather than numbering them, initially drew criticism but ultimately helped humanize her subjects to the scientific community and public.
  • “For one thing, I gave them names instead of numbers. Terrible thing to do.” – Jane Goodall [01:54]

Challenging Scientific Orthodoxy

[01:54 – 02:44]

• Early on, Goodall faced pushback for attributing emotions and personality to chimpanzees, contrary to the scientific norms of the time.
• Over time, her approach became widely accepted, underscoring the kinship between humans and chimpanzees.
  • “It's completely crazy to imagine that they wouldn't have similar feelings, similar ways of tackling problems in life.” – Jane Goodall [02:44]

The Chimps’ Behavior and Individuality

[03:16 – 06:52, 10:55 – 14:24]

• Goodall shared stories of how chimps treated male and female researchers differently, with some individuals (like Frodo) posing particular dangers.
  • “He’s probably 10 times stronger than I am... Frodo is the largest, heaviest chimp we’ve ever known.” – Jane Goodall [04:00]
• On her relationship with the chimps, Goodall likened herself to part of their environment:
  • “I doubt they think very much now. I think we’re just part of the environment.” – Jane Goodall [05:19]
• She described classic forms of nonverbal communication—kissing, embracing, patting—that mirror human behaviors, and are used in similar contexts.
  • “The striking thing here is that not only do the patterns look like so many of ours, but they’re used in the same context, so they obviously mean the same kind of thing.” – Jane Goodall [07:39]

The Importance of Observation and Ethical Distance

[06:52 – 08:10, 12:45 – 13:58]

• Goodall made a conscious effort to minimize her influence on the chimps’ behavior, maintaining distance in the wild and discouraging overt friendliness to preserve the integrity of her research.
  • “We’ve always tried to be as unobtrusive as possible... not to try and communicate with them, but to be part of the environment that they will ignore.” – Jane Goodall [06:36]
• She recognized that becoming too involved might “disturb the natural behavior” or even put herself in danger.
  • “It would be very easy to become part of the group... and for another could be very dangerous because they do attack each other quite often.” – Jane Goodall [13:58]

Game-Changing Discoveries: Tools and Intelligence

[25:44 – 27:38]

• Goodall’s documentation of chimpanzees’ use and manufacture of tools was a watershed in primatology, causing scientists to question what it means to be human.
  • “Not only using it as a tool, but actually making tools, which is the real breakthrough.” – Jane Goodall [25:52]
  • “Now we must redefine man, redefine tool, or accept chimpanzees as humans.” – Louis Leakey, quoted by Goodall [27:32]
• She pointed out that every time animals are observed performing behaviors once thought uniquely human, it “blurs the line that used to be perceived as sharp, dividing humans ... from the rest of the animal kingdom.” [28:58]

Motherhood: Human and Chimpanzee Parallels

[30:11 – 33:49]

• Goodall discussed raising her son while in the field, consciously adopting lessons from observing chimpanzee mothers.
  • “Good mothers will be attentive, protective, tolerant, playful, affectionate, and above all, supportive.” – Jane Goodall [31:35]
  • She chose to stay with her child for his first three years, pausing her research to prioritize early development.

Chimps as Both Kindred Spirits and Threats

[33:49 – 36:29]

• Goodall addressed the discomfort of knowing chimps could be dangerous and even prey on human infants, including incidents at Gombe.
  • “Chimps are meat eaters and they have been known to take human infants for food, including at Gombe.” – Jane Goodall [33:56]
• Discovering chimpanzee brutality and cannibalism was “very disturbing,” challenging previous assumptions about their character.
  • “It was even more shocking to find ... they were capable of extreme brutality, of cannibalism and of behavior... very similar to primitive human warfare.” – Jane Goodall [34:39]

Violence, Compassion, and Human Nature

[36:29 – 39:33]

• Goodall’s studies revealed that chimps could engage in territorial warfare, with brutal “raids” and attacks reminiscent of early human tribal conflicts.
  • “Groups of males will patrol the boundaries of their territory ... and they appear to be searching for sight or sound of neighbors.” – Jane Goodall [35:36]
• She addressed evolutionary roots of violence, but stressed humans also inherit compassion and altruism from their primate heritage.
  • “Equally deeply rooted in our primate heritage are compassion, love and altruism, because we find wonderful examples of these qualities in the chimps.” – Jane Goodall [39:33]
• Goodall believes free will allows humans to choose compassion over aggression, countering determinism.

Reflections on People versus Chimps

[39:46 – 39:57]

• When asked whether she prefers chimps or people, Goodall offered a characteristically balanced perspective:
  • “Chimps are so like us that I like some people much more than some chimps and some chimps much more than some people.” – Jane Goodall [39:46]

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

“For one thing, I gave them names instead of numbers. Terrible thing to do.”
Jane Goodall [01:54]

“It's completely crazy to imagine that they wouldn't have similar feelings, similar ways of tackling problems in life.”
Jane Goodall [02:44]

“He’s probably 10 times stronger than I am... Frodo is the largest, heaviest chimp we’ve ever known.”
Jane Goodall [04:00]

“The striking thing here is that not only do the patterns look like so many of ours, but they’re used in the same context, so they obviously mean the same kind of thing.”
Jane Goodall [07:39]

“Now we must redefine man, redefine tool, or accept chimpanzees as humans.”
Louis Leakey, quoted by Goodall [27:32]

“Good mothers will be attentive, protective, tolerant, playful, affectionate, and above all, supportive.”
Jane Goodall [31:35]

“It was even more shocking to find ... they were capable of extreme brutality, of cannibalism and of behavior... very similar to primitive human warfare.”
Jane Goodall [34:39]

“Equally deeply rooted in our primate heritage are compassion, love and altruism, because we find wonderful examples of these qualities in the chimps.”
Jane Goodall [39:33]

“Chimps are so like us that I like some people much more than some chimps and some chimps much more than some people.”
Jane Goodall [39:46]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:17 – 01:54] – Biography of Jane Goodall and summary of her legacy
• [01:54 – 02:44] – Naming chimps, challenging scientific norms
• [03:16 – 05:19] – Gendered chimp behavior and safety
• [06:33 – 07:39] – Communicating with and observing chimps
• [10:55 – 13:58] – Early breakthroughs, ethical boundaries, acceptance by chimps
• [15:43 – 19:48] – Early career, Leakey’s influence, socioeconomic barriers
• [25:44 – 28:58] – Discovery of tool use, blurring species boundaries
• [30:11 – 33:49] – Lessons from chimpanzee motherhood and raising her son
• [33:49 – 36:29] – Chimps as threats, reevaluating their nature
• [36:29 – 39:33] – Chimp warfare, violence, and evolutionary implications
• [39:46 – 39:57] – People vs. chimps: Goodall on her connections to both

---

Conclusion

Terry Gross’s conversations with Jane Goodall provide a portrait of a scientist whose deep empathy and open-mindedness transformed our understanding of animals and ourselves. Goodall dismantled barriers between species, challenged the orthodoxy of her field, and connected scientific rigor with storytelling. Her reflections on violence, maternal care, and compassion continue to challenge and inspire. This Fresh Air tribute is not just a look back at her scientific achievements, but also a celebration of her enduring legacy and her profound belief in humanity’s capacity for both reflection and change.

Transcript

[Capital One Announcer]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.

[Narrator/Host]

Jane Goodall, the internationally renowned conservationist and researcher of chimpanzees in their natural habitat, died last week. She was 91. Goodall had no scientific training when she made her way to East Africa at age 23. She went to work as a secretary for paleontologist Louis Leakey, who'd been hoping to find someone to study a group of chimpanzees on Lake Tanganyika. Goodall took the challenge and groundbreaking observations followed about the chimps ability to make and use tools, their diet, their mating patterns and their social interactions. Goodall shared her work in many books, articles and documentaries with herself as a character in the stories. The University of Cambridge recognized her contributions by accepting her into its doctoral program which she completed in 1965. As her career developed, she saw the need for protecting chimps habitat and established the Jane Goodall Institute to advance her conservation work. She wrote 32 books, 3015 for children and was recognized with a host of awards, receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom and being named a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire. Today we'll listen to parts of two interviews Terry Gross recorded with Goodall. The first was in 1993 when Goodall had co authored a book with Dale Peterson about the relationship between chimps and humans. Jane Goodall told Terry that when she first began studying the chimps, she was discouraged from projecting human qualities on the animals. But she disregarded that advice.

[Jane Goodall]

For one thing, I gave them names instead of numbers. Terrible thing to do. For another thing, the first scientific paper I wrote, I talked about chimpanzees as he and she and I said this individual who. And the article came back and it was substituted for he and she and which was substituted for who. And then in those days you couldn't talk about something like adolescence and childhood. You couldn't talk about motivation, you couldn't talk about excitement. There was very, very little you could do in terms of describing chimpanzee behavior in terms that ordinary people would understand.

[Terry Gross]

Do you think that that's changed? Do you think that your more personal style has become accepted scientifically?

[Jane Goodall]

I think that in most scientific circles today these things that I've mentioned are accepted. I think people have come to realize that when we're talking about creatures who share over 98% of their genetic material with us, creatures whom we know to have very, very similar central nervous systems and brains. You know, it's completely crazy to imagine that they wouldn't have similar feelings, similar ways of tackling problems in life. Mostly people accept today that that is.

[Terry Gross]

So in writing about chimp behavior, you say that male chimps are more respectful of men, especially men with deep voices, and they take liberties with women. How did you find that out? And what kind of liberties did the chimps take with you?

[Jane Goodall]

Really, until quite recently, there hasn't been that obvious a difference in the way they treat, or they treated male and female researchers. But we now have one chimpanzee who's a rogue and he's actually very dangerous to female researchers and most particularly to me. And it's very sad, after 32 years in the field, that one chimpanzee has, in a way, made Gombe feel a little unsafe to me today.

[Terry Gross]

What does he do that's a threat to you?

[Jane Goodall]

He's probably 10 times stronger than I am. I mean, a big male chimpanzee is said to be four to five times stronger than an adult human male. And Frodo is the largest, heaviest chimp we've ever known. At Gombe, he's 115 pounds. He's about 20 years old. He's absolutely magnificent. He's one of Fifi's offspring. And what he'll do is display, that's charging with his hair, bristling, dragging branches and things straight towards me, pull me over, stamp on me, perhaps display away, come back and do the same thing again. He's actually done it three times.

[Terry Gross]

I'm sure you've asked yourself why you've become a target of his. Do you have any idea why?

[Jane Goodall]

I can only think that it's because of all the people working at Gombe, he has the least fear of me. I've always been able to get very close to even nervous individuals, and that's because I'm calm and quiet and I don't try to get too close and I don't push. And so he has absolutely no fear, no respect, no.

You know, nothing that.

Will block his aggressive behavior towards human humans, particularly me.

[Terry Gross]

I'm sure you've asked yourself what the chimps think of you and what they think of what you're doing there and who you are.

[Jane Goodall]

I doubt they think very much now. I think we're just part of the environment. As you know, there are baboons and there are bush pigs and we're just part of that natural environment. To almost all of them. They grew up with us.

[Terry Gross]

Did you learn to make the sounds that chimps use to communicate?

[Jane Goodall]

I can make most of them. Most of the people studying chimps can make those sounds, but we don't actually make them in the wild. I sometimes make them to chimps in captive groups and they usually reply certainly that the little greeting sound when you want to approach a nervous young chimp, which I have to do all the time because one of the things that we're doing with the Institute is to rescue orphan chimps whose mothers have been shot by hunters, they're confiscated by the government and we care for them. And to see some of those pathetic little orphans in the markets being sold at the street side. They're dehydrated, their eyes are dull, they're losing hope, they're losing health. And you go up and you make this soft little, which is a gentle greeting and they'll sometimes put their arm around your neck.

[Terry Gross]

How come you wouldn't use that language in the wild?

[Jane Goodall]

Because we've always tried to be as unobtrusive as possible to keep in the background, to let the chimpanzees get on with their lives, not to try and communicate with them, but to be part of the environment that they will ignore and they can get on with their lives.

[Terry Gross]

What else would you say to a chimp in captivity?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, I sometimes make the distance call which chimpanzees at Gombe make when they're calling out from one side of a valley to the other and they're basically identifying themselves or perhaps questioning. Who's over there? I'm here.

[Terry Gross]

Is that a sound you could demonstrate for us?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, I can demonstrate if I just lean away from the microphone because it's rather loud. But.

[Terry Gross]

In all your years in the field studying chimpanzees, were there particular aspects of chimp behavior that you felt you understood and were particularly like your own, particularly like the way humans behave?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, I think a lot. One of the most striking really is the non verbal communication patterns. So that chimpanzees will kiss, embrace, hold hands, pat one another on the back, swagger, threaten by shaking their fists, tickle. And the striking thing here is that not only do the patterns look like so many of ours, but they're used in the same context, so they obviously mean the same kind of thing.

[Terry Gross]

When you first went to the bush, you were given the opportunity to do that by the anthropologist Louis Leakey. And this was to be the first really long term study of chimpanzees other People, I believe, had studied them for months at a time. You were supposed to go there for a few years. So you got there and you went with your mother because you weren't allowed to go by yourself. What was that story?

[Jane Goodall]

Young English women didn't do that sort of thing. In fact, as I grew up, I was told I couldn't. It's what I'd always wanted to do. But I had this great mother who always used to say, Jane, if you want to do something enough and you work hard enough and you take advantage of opportunities, you'll get there in the end. And so when I was told by the British authorities that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to go out completely on my own without some kind of female companion, my mother was the one who offered to come.

[Terry Gross]

What did you do to help you when you were getting started?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, she was fabulous. She had a clinic. Her brother was a surgeon and he supplied her with all kinds of simple medications like aspirins and band aids and Epsom salts, you know, that kind of thing, something that anybody can administer. And she set up a little clinic on the shore of the lake for the local fishermen who were living around the park. And she had so much patience, so much concern and care that with these simple remedies she sometimes worked wonderful, amazing cures. In fact, we found out later that she was known as the White Witch Doctor. And of course this was tremendously helpful in establishing friendly, good relationships with the local people. And those have remained ever since.

[Terry Gross]

How long did she stay with you?

[Jane Goodall]

She was with me about. It was between three and four months. And by that time the local authorities realized that, you know, it was okay and I was going to be alright. And I had a staff by then, I had a cook and a boat driver and I'd made friends with the local people and they said, all right, you can stay.

[Terry Gross]

When you got to Tanzania and you knew you were there to watch and research the chimps, were they easy to find?

[Jane Goodall]

No. They used to run away the first moment they saw me. They would depart into the undergrowth and it was very frustrating. But gradually, from an open rocky peak overlooking two valleys, one on the north, one on the south, using my binoculars, wearing the same coloured clothes every day, they got used to this queer white skinned ape who'd appeared so surprisingly in their midst. And so gradually I was able to get closer and closer and learn ever more about their fascinating behavior.

[Terry Gross]

One chimp was particularly helpful to you because he was the first chimp that befriended you, shall we say, what did he do to help introduce you to the others?

[Jane Goodall]

He was fantastic. That was David Greybeard. And I probably owe more to him than any other chimp throughout these long 33 years. For some reason he had a particularly calm and trusting disposition. Of course, every chimpanzee has his or her own totally individual personality, just like we do. And David, instead of running off, would just sit and calmly continue what he was doing. It was David who one day arrived in my camp to feed on the ripe fruits of the oil nut palm growing there. And while he was there he saw some bananas lying on the table and he took those. My cook told me about this male chimp who'd arrived and eventually I stayed down and waited to see who it was. And that's how I found out it was David Graybeard. I'd already named him from my encounters in the forest. And from that time on he would sometimes wander up to me in the forest to see if I had a banana somewhere hidden about my person or in my haversack. And the other chimps would start to run and then they'd stop and their eyes were big and wide and they think, what is this? What is going on? And so they realized that I wasn't so frightening after all. It was as though David had opened a door into what was then a really magic, unknown world.

[Terry Gross]

What were the signs that you were being accepted by the other chimps?

[Jane Goodall]

They didn't run away, they stayed. When I could approach and they would, they would look up and then they'd continue their grooming or their playing or their feeding or whatever it was they were doing before I came.

[Terry Gross]

Would they approach you and make friendly gestures towards you?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, no, absolutely not. They just continued with what they were doing.

[Terry Gross]

Did it ever get to that point, as time went on, where chimps would come up to you and be friendly.

[Jane Goodall]

In a conscious way? Well, you see, we tried to discourage all that kind of thing. They would sometimes come up to Pierre if there was a banana anywhere. But as we discouraged any kind of contact, we didn't really have that much. There was one short period. It was before I realized we could make this a really long term study. And it was so exciting to be able to go up to and groom completely wild adult male chimp David Greybeard. It was so exciting when a mother allowed her infant to come up and touch me. It was so incredibly moving when a juvenile allowed me to play with him. And I wouldn't have foregone those experiences but in a way they were wrong because it was dangerous to try and establish communication with them. It was dangerous to the objective collection of information.

[Terry Gross]

You become too much of the story and start to change the chimp behavior by your presence and involvement.

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah.

I mean, it would be very easy to become part of the group and then for one, that would disturb the natural behavior more than we do by being there anyway. And for another could be very dangerous because they do attack each other quite often for no very obvious reason sometimes, and they are very strong. And if we were perceived by them to be part of the group, they'd probably all treat all of us the way Frodo treats me. That's interesting.

[Terry Gross]

Jane Goodall, I thank you very much for talking with us.

[Jane Goodall]

Thank you.

[Narrator/Host]

Jane Goodall, speaking with Terry GROSS, recorded in 1993. We'll hear some of a second conversation the two had in 1999 after this short break. This is FRESH AIR.

[Capital One Announcer]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC if you're a super fan of FRESH AIR with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a FRESH AIR Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years. This program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors and more. As a member of the FRESH AIR Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at why.orgfresh airsociety.

[Narrator/Host]

Today, we're remembering Jane Goodall, known for her work researching the behavior of chimpanzees and protecting their habitats. Goodall died last week at the age of 91. Terry spoke with Goodall in 1999 upon publication of her book Reason for Hope, about her years in the wild.

[Terry Gross]

You went first to secretarial school, which isn't the perfect training for a primatologist. What were you expecting to happen by, you know, what was your plan, going to secretarial school?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, from the age of eight or nine, I wanted to go to Africa, live with animals and write books about them. And that was because I fell in love with Tarzan and was terribly jealous of Tarzan's Jane. And I thought she was a wimp and I'd have been much better as a mate for Tarzan myself, which is true. I would have been. And, you know, everybody laughed at me. How could I go to Africa? We didn't have any money. It was during the Second World War. There were no jets going over with tourists and we just heard rumors about, you know, poisoned arrows and sinister drum beat messages and things like that. But my mother never laughed. So I left school and didn't go to university because at that time in England, unless you were good in a foreign language, you couldn't get a scholarship. And I was always hopeless in foreign languages. And so my mother said, well, if you are set on going to Africa or some other foreign place, if you learn secretarial work, then you can get a job anywhere in the world or. Which of course was brilliant idea because that's exactly what I did. I had my first job with Louis Leakey as his secretary.

[Terry Gross]

How did you get a job as a secretary? How did you even meet him?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, I was in London. I had this wonderful job with documentary films and it was as a secretary. As a, well, secretary, not really. I sort of was choosing music and things like that for these documentary films. And it was a fascinating job and I met lots of people but didn't pay for, well, lots of jobs. Didn't just after the war. So when I had a letter from a school friend inviting me to Kenya where her parents had just bought a farm, I instantly handed in my resignation and went home and worked as a waitress and saved up my wages and my tips until I had enough for a return fare by boat. So once I got out to Kenya in Nairobi, I heard about Louis Leakey and somebody said, Jane, if you, if you are really interested in animals, you should meet Lewis. So I made an appointment, went to see him in his office at the Natural History Museum and I think he was impressed because although I didn't have a degree, I'd gone on reading about Africa and animals and I could answer so many of his questions. So he gave me a job working for him that same day, the day I met him.

[Terry Gross]

And what was your job when you were his personal secretary?

[Jane Goodall]

I was just writing his letters and speaking to people on the phone and, you know, that kind of thing. But I had the amazing opportunity of going with him, his wife and one other young English girl onto the Serengeti to the now famous Olduvai Gorge where so many early human fossils have been found. But at that time only the remains of prehistoric non humans had been found. So instead of being a road leading there as there is today, this was wild, untouched Africa. No tracks, no trails, just occasionally the odd Maasai walking by. And all the animals were there. So that after the hard work of searching for bones, fossilized bones during the day in the hot sun, Gillian and I were allowed to go onto the plains and, you know, there were giraffe and zebra and antelopes and one evening a rhino and one evening a young male lion who followed us quite a long way. And I think that's when Lewis realized I was the person he'd been looking for. You know, I didn't care about clothes and hairdressers and parties and boyfriends. I just wanted to be out there with the animals.

[Terry Gross]

And so he gave you the chimp project to do, researching chimpanzees in the wild.

[Jane Goodall]

Right. He had two major problems to overcome. One was, how was he going to get the money for this crazy scheme? I mean, in those days, young people didn't go tramping off living with animals in the bush, especially girls. And finally, he got some money from a wealthy American businessman, Leighton Wilkie. And secondly, Tanzania, where the chimps are, was Tanganyika then. It was under British colonial rule. It was actually a protectorate. And so the authorities, the British authorities said, a young girl on her own in the bush. Preposterous. Impossible. But Lewis never gave up. So in the end, they said, oh, well, all right, but she must bring someone with her and who volunteered to come for the first four months, but that same amazing mother.

[Terry Gross]

Did you think of Leakey as an early feminist? In a way, because he thought it was fine to have you, a young woman, heading this project and working alone in the wild.

[Jane Goodall]

Quite honestly, it never occurred to me. I mean, I grew up in a family of very strong women. There was, you know, when the war started, my father joined up. Mom, my sister and I went to live with her mother, and my mother had two other sisters living in the house. And then every weekend, or most weekends, my uncle would come. He was the one male presence. And it just never occurred to me to question that I would be able to do what I wanted. It didn't, you know, it just didn't enter my thinking that I couldn't do something things because I was a woman. So when Leakey suggested I went out, we didn't actually talk about it much as being strange that I was a female. And it wasn't until the British authorities started saying they were horrified that I realized it was perhaps a little strange at the time, but he just felt that women would be more patient and therefore make better observers.

[Narrator/Host]

Jane Goodall, speaking with Terry Gross in 1999. Goodall died last week at the age of 91. We'll hear more of their conversation after this break. Later, our critic at large, John Powers, reviews the new film A House of Dynamite by Kathryn Bigelow, who made the Hurt Locker. I'm Dave Davies and this is Fresh Air.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you write that when you first started doing work in the wild, you weren't afraid of being harmed by wild animals. You believed that the animals would sense that you intended no harm, that you were there as a friend and that Leakey encouraged you to believe this. Do you think he should have discouraged you to believe this and given you a little more cause for concern?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, no, because at the same time he taught me that I had to be very careful and that animals were dangerous or could be. And that, for example, if you got between a mother and her young, you'd be in big, big trouble. If you startled an animal, you'd be in big trouble. And that you might come across some creature who'd been wounded and who hated people. So I was perfectly aware of possible danger and tried to be as careful as I could. And he spent quite a lot of time teaching me so that he didn't tell me not to be afraid. And I think there are moments when fear is terribly important. You know, if you suddenly hear stamping or snorting close by in the undergrowth, it's better to have some kind of mechanism to deal with it. Like climbing a tree, which I once did, just in time not to be.

Charged by two buffaloes.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you just described a close call. Were you ever harmed?

[Jane Goodall]

No, I never was actually harmed until quite recently. We have one chimp who's a bully, Fifi's son, Frodo. And he just loves. He's not trying to actually really hurt or kill anyone, but because the ground is so rugged and rocky, if he knocks you over and drags you and stamps on you, you can get a little bit hurt. And I did.

What did he do to you?

Well, he knocked me over and then he stamped on me and then he charged away and then. Which he does to lots of people. But for some reason he charged back twice more and stamped and dragged and sort of cracked open. Well, not cracked open my head, but I had a bleeding cut where he'd hit my head on a rock and a damaged ankle. So I try to avoid Frodo. You know, he is potentially dangerous. He's £130, the biggest chimp we've had there. He's the top ranking male now and he is huge.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you know, if it's a person, you could try to work things out verbally even after to reach some kind of verbal apology or agreement, which you can't do. With the chimpanzee, are you angry with him the way you would be with a person, or do you feel like, well, it's chimp behavior and you're there to observe it and you just accept this?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, theoretically, I think it's just chimp behavior, I must accept it. But actually, you know, chimps are so like people. I actually get pretty mad at him. I think it's just you can't help it. You feel you're dealing with a whole lot of people actually. So, yeah, I get mad at him and I try to avoid him.

[Terry Gross]

Has this incident changed your behavior around the chimps or how close you'll go to them, or is it just changing your behavior around this one chimp?

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah, it's just the one. I mean, the others are just the same, wonderful chimps, they always have been. And I think if I was there all the time, this problem would go away. I think it's because I disappear for so long and there is something in the chimps makeup that even if it's another chimp, a long separation is likely to lead to aggression when the two chimps meet again.

[Terry Gross]

A lot of scientists have seen humans as the only animal that uses tools. And you basically saw a chimp working with a tool.

[Jane Goodall]

What was the tool? Yeah, that's right. And not only using it as a tool, but actually making tools, which is the real breakthrough. It was a piece of grass and it was being used by a chimpanzee whom I'd named David Greybeard, who was the first to lose his fear of me. And when I saw him squatting on this termite mound and using this piece of grass as a tool and then picking a leafy twig and stripping the leaves off, thus making the object suitable to fish for termites. I mean, it was. I actually was so excited I couldn't believe it. And I wouldn't let myself get too worked up until I'd actually seen it again on another day because it seemed so unlikely and I didn't have a very clear view. I was sort of hidden in the vegetation. But anyway, it was real.

[Terry Gross]

Describe a little bit more how he was using this grass as a tool.

[Jane Goodall]

Well, the termites make a mound. There are a lot of different kinds of termites and these make large, very, very hard earth compacted by their own saliva and they're reddish colored. And at a certain time of year the winged termites fly out and the worker termites make passages up to the surface of these nests, these very hard nests. And so David would pick a piece of grass, carefully push it into one of these tunnels, wait for a moment, pull it out very, very carefully, and there would usually be termites biting on, and he would then pick them off with his lips and crunch them up.

[Terry Gross]

So when you described this to Louis Leakey, what was his reaction?

[Jane Goodall]

Now we must redefine man, redefine tool, or accept chimpanzees as humans.

[Terry Gross]

And so which did you end up doing, redefining tool man or accept chimps as human?

[Jane Goodall]

I think, you know, I didn't really pay any attention to that. I didn't do anything. I think what's fascinating is every time somebody discovers an animal doing something that we used to think was unique to us, there is this scientific uproar because we have to keep our uniqueness. And of course, the chimps have challenged this belief again and again and again. There are all kinds of intellectual performances we used to think unique to us, abstraction, generalization, understanding and using abstract symbols, things like this that they can they've been shown to do especially some of the careful work in captive situations. And because of this and because of all the similarities in emotion, happiness, sadness, fear, because of the fact they have such very vivid personalities, they've really helped so much to blur the line that used to be perceived as sharp, dividing humans on the one hand from the rest of the animal kingdom on the other. And it sort of gives you a new humility. We're different, yes. We're unique, yes, but not as different as we used to think.

[Narrator/Host]

Jane Goodall speaking with Terry Gross in 1999. We'll hear more of their conversation in just a moment. This is FRESH air.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

The federal government has shut down. What are lawmakers arguing about and what does it mean for you? The NPR Politics Podcast is here to make sense of it all, giving you updates and news every day. Keep you informed. The NPR Politics Podcast Listen every day.

[Narrator/Host]

Hey, it's Mike Danforth, executive producer of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.

[John Powers]

Here's a great way to get the.

[Narrator/Host]

Perks of being an NPR producer without doing any of the work.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Join npr.

[Narrator/Host]

With npr, you get extended interviews, inside looks at your favorite shows and more.

[Jane Goodall]

All while supporting NPR and never having to pull an all nighter.

[Narrator/Host]

Or if you work on one of the new shows, an all morninger.

[Jane Goodall]

Sign [e-mail] on the Throughline podcast from NPR. What it takes to report on war.

[John Powers]

Great. Sleep deprivation. There's no privacy.

[Jane Goodall]

You know, how far can I go with this? When journalists are silenced, the truth is.

[Narrator/Host]

Going to be buried with them.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

You raised a child during your research in the forest in Tanzania. Was your approach to mothering affected by watching chimps mother their babies?

[Jane Goodall]

Well, I think it was. I mean, I consciously thought that what I'd learned from watching the chimpanzee mothers was very appropriate for raising a human child. I think one of the things that I've learned that's really significant in relation to raising human children is that there are very different kinds of mothering in the wild. We find good mothers and bad mothers. And the good mother will be attentive, protective, tolerant, playful, affectionate, and above all, supportive. And the mother who is on the poorer end of the scale tends to be rather harsh or cold in her treatment of the baby, to be less supportive, less affectionate, less tolerant, and much less playful. And it does seem that these maternal characteristics, along with the kind of family into which the infant is born, in other words, the whole early experience, has a tremendous influence on the type of chimpanzee that infant will become. And we find that those with the good, supportive mothers tend to be assertive, successful, they have relaxed relationships with other adults, whereas those that have the colder, less supportive mothers tend to grow up being rather nervous, finding it difficult to relate well to other adults, and usually being rather low ranking on the dominant scale. So if this early experience is so important for chimps, is it perhaps also for humans? And I believe that it is. And I think there's a growing body of scientific data to suggest that that's so.

[Terry Gross]

So did you try to be extra supportive, tolerant and playful with your child?

[Jane Goodall]

Yeah, and I also spent, you know, for the first three years, I basically was with him all the time. And people have said, oh, well, you were so lucky you could do your research and stay with your child. But in fact, because I made this conscious decision to spend time with him because I felt it was important, that meant that I actually stopped following the chimps. I just occasionally walked up to look at them, but then I'd go back and spend time with my son. And the funny thing is that even if I hadn't observed the chimps, I probably would have brought my son up in much the same way, because my mother treated us very much like the old female Flo treated her young. So I don't know.

[Terry Gross]

So did you have researchers who were observing the chimps during those years when you were spending most of your time with your child?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, yeah. By that time, we'd built up the research Station, which of course is still very dynamic and alive today. So we're actually approaching our 40th year of research. It's the longest unbroken study of any group of wild animals in the world. And the wonderful thing is we have one chimpanzee, Fifi Flo's daughter, who was a small infant when I began in 1960 and she's the only one still alive today from those early years. But you know, I can go back to Gombe, look into her eyes and I know that there are certain memories that she and I share from those early years.

[Terry Gross]

I want to get back to being a mother in the wild. Did you have to protect your baby from the chimps?

[Jane Goodall]

Oh, absolutely. Chimps are meat eaters and they have been known to take human infants for food, including at Gombe. Well, at least in that part of it was before it became a park actually. And so it was very, very important to keep Grub, as we called him, away from the chimps and to always have someone with him. And that was why while he was sort of two and three, I actually spent much, much less time at Gombe and more time with Hugo, my ex husband on the Serengeti, which was a sort of healthier and safer environment for a small toddling child.

[Terry Gross]

It must have changed your feelings about the chimps too, knowing that they were a potential enemy.

[Jane Goodall]

It was very disturbing to think that these wonderful chimpanzees might harm my baby, my precious baby, because up until that time I had thought that although chimps were very like us in so many ways, that they were rather nicer. And it was even more shocking to find, and this was when my son was already about 5 years old, to find that they were capable of extreme brutality, of cannibalism and of a behavior it's very similar to primitive human warfare.

[Terry Gross]

Some of your most important findings from your research of chimps in the wild has to do with chimpanzee violence and how some chimpanzees may attack chimps of neighboring communities. Could you talk a little bit about what you found were possible motivations for these attacks?

[Jane Goodall]

We believe that the really serious attacks on members of a neighboring community are due to a sort of territorial dispute. We find that they're very aggressively territorial and that groups of males will patrol the boundaries of their territory and they appear to be searching for sight or sound of neighbors and that the males of a communities, any, any number from 4 to 10 depending on the size of the community at the time, will actually enlarge their territory at the expense of a weaker neighbor. So it's not only protecting their territory for their females and young, but an acts of warfare almost to increase their own territory.

[Terry Gross]

You compare some of this hostile chimp behavior to primitive warfare. In what way are they similar?

[Jane Goodall]

We had one period at Gombe which was, I think, the darkest period in Gombe's history, which we refer to as the four year war. And it happened after the main study group had divided and there was a period when there was a sort of no man's land between the two communities. Newly established rangers and then the males of the larger community, the Casaquela community, began going on raids into the heart of the land that had been taken over by the splinter group that moved off to the south. And if they encountered an individual on his or her own, they would give chase. It was like almost like a hunt. And once they captured such an individual, they would subject him or her to a really, really brutal and sustained attack. Nothing like that happens within a community. This is very special to inter community interactions. And the chimps, particularly the young males, appear to enjoy this kind of conflict. And a young male will actually go back into a danger zone and peer at the enemies. So they also show patterns when they attack strangers that they never show during intra community fighting. That's fighting within their community, such as bending a, twisting a limb round and round, drinking blood, tearing the skin, the sort of thing you see when they're trying to kill an adult prey animal.

[Terry Gross]

Has your research led you to make any connections between chimp and human violence? Yes.

[Jane Goodall]

It suggests if we, if we believe in Darwinian evolution, if we believe, as Lewis did, and I do, that at one time we shared a common ancestor, then it seems fairly clear that we have inherited certain violent tendencies from our ancient primate ancestors. But I've been criticized for publishing some of these violent episodes because there are scientists who have argued that if I publish them, then there will be those who try to make use of those observations to imply that we are a violent species and war is inevitable. And I believe that we have quite a strong free will and that we are able to choose the direction we go. We don't have to go around being violent. And in fact, most people don't. Most people are quite disciplined. And we have to also remember that equally deeply rooted in our primate heritage are compassion, love and altruism, because we find wonderful examples of these qualities in the chimps that we've studied.

[Terry Gross]

Just one more thing. We only have a few seconds. You say that, you know, you really do love people, do a lot of people assume that since you've spent so much time in the wild, often alone, studying chimps, that maybe you're antisocial.

[Jane Goodall]

Some people do feel that. And they say, which do I like best, chimps or people? And I say, well, chimps are so like us that I like some people much more than some chimps and some chimps much more than some people.

[Terry Gross]

That's a great answer. Jane Goodall, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Jane Goodall]

Thank you.

[Narrator/Host]

Jane Goodall, speaking with Terry Gross in 1999. Goodall died last week at the age of 91. Coming up, our critic at large, John Powers reviews the new film A House of Dynamite by Kathryn Bigelow, who made the Hurt Locker. This is FRESH air.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Sea levels around the world have been rising for years and now they're starting to rise faster. Here's the thing, though, it really depends on your individual location. Like Seattle will see less sea level rise than Annapolis, which will see less sea level sea level rise than New Orleans on short wave. NPR's Science podcast We get into why. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

This message is sponsored by dsw, the birthplace of the humble brag, full of all kinds of shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. And when there are never ending options for every style, mood, occasion and budget, there is unlimited freedom to play. And that's something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. Dsw let them surprise you. This message comes from Ritual. What makes Ritual Vitamins different? Ritual vitamins are made with bio available, clinically studied key ingredients and a patented nutrient delivery system that aims to help your body use the nutrients you're getting. Ritual's essential multivitamins are made with you and your body in mind and backed by scientific research, filled with key ingredients as well as the essence of mint so you can enjoy taking your vitamins. Get 25% off your first purchase when you visit ritual.com NPR in the new.

[Narrator/Host]

Hot button film A House of Dynamite, the US Is threatened by a nuclear missile. The movie, which opens in theaters this week, was directed by Kathryn Bigelow, who won an Oscar for the Hurt Locker. It stars, among others, Idris Elba, Rebecca Ferguson and Jared Harris. Our critic at large, John Powers, has this review.

[John Powers]

If you were born after Hiroshima, you've spent your whole life seeing or at least knowing of movies about the atomic bomb from the ruthless 60s satire Dr. Strangelove to the 80s TV sensation the day after to 21st century thrillers like the Sum of All Fears, filmmakers keep imagining the ways that nuclear weapons can lead to cataclysm. The latest to do so is A House of Dynamite, a white knuckle Netflix movie that opens first in cinemas and hits the Streamer itself on October 24th. I encourage you to see it in a theater because it's directed by Kathryn Bigelow, who's not merely the first woman to win the best director Oscar. She's unsurpassed at action and suspense. Although I normally try to avoid cliches, A House of Dynamite literally did have me on the edge of my seat. The action begins when a military tracking station spots a single nuclear warhead, origin unknown, heading toward the US mainland. If not shot down, it will hit in 20 minutes. For the rest of the movie, we leapfrog among the characters who are trying to stop that missile, figure out who launched it, Putin, Iran, North Korea, China pretending to be North Korea and to come up with a response that won't lead to Armageddon. If the premise is straightforward, the telling is not. The film loops back and repeats the same 20 minute period three times over as we watch different people confront the threat. In the first, which is about trying to stop the icbm, we flit between a major and an Alaska missile outpost. That's Anthony Ramos and the military officer running the White House situation room. She's played by Rebecca Ferguson, who you'll know from Mission Impossible. The second part centers on two tacticians a deputy national security advisor, played by Gabriel Basso, who's urging a cautious response, and the general, played by Tracy Letts, who fears that caution could lead to America's destruction. Finally, the third part centers on the secretary of defense, played by Jared Harris and President Idris Elba. He's presented with a menu featuring different levels of retaliatory slaughter and has the agonizing task of deciding who, if anyone, to nuke. Here, on a conference call with Basso and others, let's his general lays out the situation.

[General (Character in A House of Dynamite)]

These are the circumstances. In little more than seven minutes, we will lose the city of Chicago. I can't tell you why or why we're seeing North Korea, Russia, China, Pakistan and even Iran raising their alerts and mobilizing their forces across air, land and sea. Perhaps, as Mr. Barrington suggested earlier, they are simply and innocently responding to our posture. It is also possible that they've seen our homeland is about to absorb a catastrophic blow and they are readying to take advantage of that. Or this is all part of a phased coordinated assault with far worse to come. I simply don't know. What I do know is this. If we do not take steps to neutralize our enemies now, we will lose our window to do so.

[John Powers]

While all the characters are defined by their jobs, Bigelow and screenwriter Noah Oppenheim give each a hint of their human dimension, be it the complacent charisma of Elba's President Ferguson fighting back tears, then soldiering on, or Harris, an actor of great vulnerability falling into despair when he grasps that the bomb will hit the city where his daughter lives. All are honorable and good at their jobs. Let's General is not one of those hair trigger strangeloveian psychopaths familiar from most thrillers. He's a rational man and baseball fan trying to do the right thing, like that 60s war horse failsafe A House of Dynamite reminds us that America's nuclear defense is based on elaborate protocols that offer an illusion of control. Yet once that unexplained missile shows up on the radar, the system instantly starts dissolving. The missile defenses don't work. It's like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet, as they say here, you can't get Putin's guy on the phone and our North Korea specialist has the day off. The encrypted video conference starts breaking up. Endless planning can't tell you what to do when the choice is between surrender and suicide. While all of this is unnerving, it's also thrilling to watch. Bigelow directs with a maestro's lucid precision, perfectly orchestrating the complicated shifts from person to person, time frame to time frame. We can follow exactly where we are and what's going on. Every moment pops, from Barry Ackroyd's alert cinematography to Kirk Baxter's jittery but controlled editing to Volker Bertelsmann's score, whose shifts keep ratcheting up the tension. While the script's ending is a tad too oblique for my taste, the movie still packs a wallop. And rightly, Bigelow is tackling something important, especially now, when the world's nuclear arsenals are increasingly controlled by aggressive nationalists. Yet it's unlikely that her warning about all the world's nukes will have any greater effect on the real world than the scads of cautionary movies that came before. Sad to say, A House of Dynamite is likely to be remembered not for making us any safer, but for being so darn exciting.

[Narrator/Host]

John Powers reviewed the new movie A House of Dynamite, now in theaters and streaming on Netflix October 24th. On Monday show Mitch Albom, whose book Tuesdays With Maury became a best selling memoir and an Emmy winning film, discusses his new novel Twice. The story is about a man who discovers he can relive any moment but must accept the consequences of reliving it. I hope you can join us.

[Jane Goodall]

To.

[Narrator/Host]

Keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R Fresh air Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorok. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julia Herzfeld and Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Ness. Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave Davies.

[Jane Goodall]

When someone you love is diagnosed with.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Cancer or another serious illness, all you.

[Jane Goodall]

Want to do is help. But where do you start?

[NPR Promo Announcer]

On the Life Kit podcast, we have tips for you.

[John Powers]

Your agenda should be I'm going to be with you and be totally present.

[Jane Goodall]

To whatever comes up.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Listen in the NPR app or wherever.

[Jane Goodall]

You get your podcast for different ways to offer support.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more. On up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes, because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the up first podcast from npr.

Taylor Swift is once again taking over the Internet.

[Jane Goodall]

Her new album touches on her relationship.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

With fiance Travis Kelce, as well as a simmering beef with a fellow pop star.

[Jane Goodall]

We're delving into the life of a showgirl and unpacking all the joyful bangers. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.