Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting

Summary

Fresh Air Episode Summary: Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting

In the April 3, 2025 episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Terry Gross engages in an intimate and profound conversation with acclaimed musician Jason Isbell. Renowned for his evocative songwriting and blending of Americana, country, and folk influences, Isbell delves deep into his creative process, personal relationships, and journey toward sobriety. This detailed summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key topics, insightful quotes, and the emotional underpinnings of Isbell's latest work, Foxes in the Snow.

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1. Introduction to Jason Isbell and His Music

Terry Gross opens the conversation by highlighting Isbell's critical acclaim, including nine Americana Music Awards and six Grammys. She touches upon his lyrical prowess, likening his songwriting to poetry and short stories, and introduces his newest album, Foxes in the Snow. This album marks a significant departure as it features Isbell solo, accompanied only by his guitar, exposing a raw and vulnerable side of his artistry.

Notable Quote:

“His lyrics are as well written as a good poem or short story. They’re often very personal,” Gross remarks, setting the stage for their in-depth discussion. (00:17)

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2. Songwriting and Personal Narratives

Isbell’s songwriting is deeply intertwined with his personal experiences, particularly his tumultuous relationship with his ex-wife, Amanda Shires. His songs navigate the complex emotions of blame, anger, guilt, and the exhilaration of new love, offering listeners an unfiltered glimpse into his emotional landscape.

Key Discussion Points:

• Introduction of the song "Bury Me" from Foxes in the Snow, showcasing his solo artistry.
• Exploration of how personal anecdotes and emotions are seamlessly woven into his music.

Notable Quotes:

Isbell: “I have been to jail, yeah. Never for longer than a day and never for anything violent. But, yeah, I have been for drinking too much.” (04:02)
Isbell: “I think my rule is, as long as you don’t know who you’re ripping off before the song comes out, then you’re okay.” (14:44)

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3. Navigating Personal Relationships Through Music

Gross addresses the delicate balance Isbell maintains when his music reflects his relationship with Shires. She expresses her admiration for both artists' songs about their fractured relationship and seeks to understand how Isbell deals with the potential for criticism or hurt.

Key Discussion Points:

• The challenge of writing songs that may seem accusatory while maintaining personal integrity.
• Isbell’s commitment to honesty and self-criticism in his lyrics, aiming to portray personal growth rather than blame.

Notable Quotes:

Gross: “Do you feel guilty about writing songs that are critical of someone you’ve been so close to?” (08:34)
Isbell: “I’m trying to push myself, and I’m trying to work in a different way than how I’ve worked in the past.” (20:39)

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4. Early Life and Religious Upbringing

Isbell shares memories of his upbringing in a deeply religious household, split between the Pentecostal Church and the Church of Christ. These contrasting environments instilled in him a complex relationship with faith and music.

Key Discussion Points:

• The impact of attending two different churches with opposing views on music.
• Early musical influences and the familial bonds forged through shared musical interests.
• The confusion and rebellion stemming from his religious experiences, contributing to his creative expression.

Notable Quotes:

Isbell: “I have been able to do the thing that I love the most every single day. And I’ve been rewarded for it in a way that sometimes seems ridiculous.” (25:50)
Isbell: “Hell just seemed just way worse than it should have been. It didn’t have to be that bad.” (27:38)

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5. Sobriety and Overcoming Addiction

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Isbell’s journey to sobriety, discussing how his experiences with addiction have shaped his music and personal growth. He reflects on the early struggles, the importance of recognizing addictive behaviors, and the support systems that have sustained his recovery.

Key Discussion Points:

• The evolution of his approach to sobriety, emphasizing openness and communication.
• The influence of his sobriety on his songwriting, exemplified in songs like “It Gets Easier, But It Never Gets Easy.”
• The role of personal resilience and community support in maintaining long-term sobriety.

Notable Quotes:

Isbell: “The last year has been tough on me emotionally... I’m very grateful for the fact that I don’t mind talking about it.” (40:06)
Isbell: “Try writing a damn recovery song and not sounding like a bumper sticker. Yeah, that’s very hard.” (41:46)

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6. Musical Evolution and Vocal Renewal

Isbell discusses his decision to take vocal lessons after experiencing a traumatic loss of his voice, leading to significant improvements in his singing technique. This personal transformation underscores his dedication to his craft and his desire to deliver authentic performances without compromising his vocal health.

Key Discussion Points:

• The process and challenges of retraining his voice.
• The impact of vocal improvement on his performance and confidence.
• The significance of songs like "Eileen," which showcase his enhanced vocal range and technique.

Notable Quotes:

Isbell: “And I’m very, very happy. And being able to learn something that’s just so important to my work and to my life, you know, in my mid-40s is a pretty wonderful thing.” (45:22)
Gross: “Do you feel like you’ve found a trap door in your throat that you could sing through without destroying your vocal cords?” (44:59)

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7. Conclusion and Final Reflections

As the interview wraps up, Isbell performs selections from his new album, bringing to life the themes discussed throughout the conversation. His closing remarks reflect gratitude towards his fans and appreciation for the platform to share his journey.

Final Thoughts:

• Emphasis on continuous personal growth and honesty in his music.
• A heartfelt acknowledgment of his listeners, reinforcing his connection with his audience.

Notable Quote:

Isbell: “You truly are an American treasure. I’m always a little bit nervous to talk to you because I know how smart you are and how much I enjoy listening to your show.” (46:13)

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Highlighted Tracks from Foxes in the Snow

1. Bury Me

   • A poignant opening track where Isbell explores themes of mortality and gratitude.
   • Quote: “But now that I live to see my melodies betray me. I’m sorry the love.” (11:02)

2. True Believer

   • Reflects on broken relationships and personal accountability.
   • Quote: “I think, unless I’m wrong, I think in every situation, the closer you look, the more it becomes obvious that the record’s about growing and changing as me, myself.” (18:37)

3. Crimson and Clay

   • A narrative song addressing racial tensions and personal struggles within a small-town setting.
   • Quote: “There’s a little noose in a locker... rebel flags on the highway, wooden crosses on wall.” (32:22)

4. Eileen

   • Showcases Isbell’s improved vocal range and emotional depth.
   • Quote: “Eileen, you should have seen this coming sooner. Do I mean to be alone for all my days?” (46:30)

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Final Thoughts

Jason Isbell’s Foxes in the Snow serves as a testament to his unwavering commitment to authenticity in his music. Through Fresh Air, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the man behind the melodies—his battles, triumphs, and the intricate tapestry of his personal and professional life. Isbell’s ability to translate complex emotions into compelling songs solidifies his place as a pivotal figure in contemporary American music.

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Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. My guest Jason Isbell was described in Variety as the poet laureate of American rock. The quibble I have with that is that I'm not exactly sure I'd call it rock because there's country and folk music blended into many of his song. Maybe the word Americana more suits him. He's won nine Americana music Awards and six Grammys. His lyrics are as well written as a good poem or short story. They're often very personal, and that was especially true of his album Southeastern, which was released in 2013 and was his first album since getting Sober. It's also true of his new album Foxes in the Snow, on which he sounds especially naked because it's solo. His band, the 400 unit, sits this one out. It's just Isbel and his guitar. Some of the songs are about the blame, anger and guilt when a relationship ends and about the exhilaration of falling in love again. His ex wife, Amanda Shires, is also a songwriter and singer and violinist who performed with Isabel. She's written her own songs about the cracks in their relationship. They were in a 2023 documentary together called Running With Our Eyes Closed, which is about the making of Isbel's 2020 album Reunions on which he played fiddle. The film also ended up being about the tension in the marriage, which was exacerbated during the COVID lockdown, when they spent more time together than they ever had. Jason Isbell got his professional start with the band the Drive By Truckers. Before we hear some of the relationship songs, let's start with a song that opens the album. I love this one. It's called Bury Me.

[Jason Isbell]

Bury me where the wind don't blow.

Where the dust won't cover me, where.

The tall grass grows or bury me right where I fall Tokyo to Tennessee, I love them all. See the windmills turn up. 55 still got so much to learn, still feel alive and one lonely girl is all I need to tie me to this world, make me believe. Well, I ain't no cowboy but I can ride and I ain't nowhere long but I've been inside. And there were bars of steel, boys and there were bars to sing and there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between.

[Terry Gross]

That was Bury Me from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow. Jason Isbell, welcome back to FRESH air. I love this album. Congratulations on it. And I love this song. And I hope I don't mangle this, but I want to quote some of the lyric. This is the chorus. I ain't no cowboy, but I can ride. I ain't no outlaw, but I've been inside. And there were bars of steel, boys, and there were bars to sing and there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between. That's so great because you're talking about a jail with bars of steel music which has bars delineating each each segment, you know, each like four notes or whatever. And bars with swinging doors, those are like old Western saloons that have those swinging doors. And you were a drinker for years, so that's just it's like, were you in jail, too?

[Jason Isbell]

I have been to jail, yeah. Never for longer than a day and never for anything violent. But, yeah, I have been for drinking too much. Yeah. Just from drinking. Drinking and you yelling, hollering at people who were also drinking.

[Terry Gross]

So you imagine you manage to incorporate some of your own story into this kind of cowboy song.

[Jason Isbell]

Yes, yes. But it's also there are, you know, I'm attempting to work on different levels sometimes it's not necessarily an allegorical song, but there are pieces of this song that are directly about me and there are details that I pull from my own life. And the swinging doors line, I mean, that could be I'm sitting here looking at a gate out the window right now. And that could also be gates. And there is at least one very, very famous set of gates when it comes to writing folk music.

[Terry Gross]

You're talking about the gates of heaven.

[Jason Isbell]

I am indeed. Yeah. In a death song, you know, so it's the kind of thing where I sort of let my unconscious mind build these lyrical phrases and then I go back and shape them into something that not only sings and scans accurately, which is this is a huge part of the process for me that I think sometimes people don't realize how much energy you spend just trying to get something to sing naturally.

[Terry Gross]

Was death on your mind when you wrote this?

[Jason Isbell]

I don't know that death was on my mind any more than life was on my mind. Anytime I think about being grateful, I call it my hillbilly brain, but it goes to the worst possible scenario in a lot of situations. I spend a lot of time thinking about death, not in a sad or fearful way, but in a way that I think, well, I have already done so many Things and got to see so many things. And that might not have necessarily been in the plans for me at the beginning, but. So I'm very, very grateful for the time that I have had, and I think this song deals with that, among other things. There was a time, though. There was definitely a time early on, after Amanda and I had split up, you know, when I was just. I was driving in the car and the radio wasn't on, and I was alone, and I just heard myself say out loud without realizing that I was saying. And I heard myself say, is this going to kill me? You know, And I didn't even know that I was. You know, didn't know that I was thinking that question, but I heard it bounce off the windshield. So, yeah, I mean, it's a combination of both of those things. Everything is brief. Is so, so brief, but it's so beautiful.

[Terry Gross]

I'm gonna tell you my dilemma as a listener, and I'll preface this by saying I really love this album. So I first interviewed you in 2013 after Southeastern, your first album since getting sober. And at that time, you seemed so much in love with your wife, who I think. I think you were already married. Amanda, who's also a songwriter and singer and violinist. And then I interviewed her in 2022 when she had an album out that included a couple of songs about fractures in the relationship. And your new album includes songs about fractures in your relationship and ending a relationship, the pain of separating, the guilt of all of it, falling in love with someone new after and listening. I sometimes think, like, am I supposed to be taking sides here? Because I like her songs. I like your songs. I can see both sides. You know, it's kind of like friends of yours are breaking up, and you're supposed to choose who stays your friend afterwards, you know? And then I thought, like, no, that's not what I want to do. What I want to do is really enjoy both of your songs and appreciate each point of view and know that there's things in each of those points of view that I identify with. So I want to talk with you about writing these songs, but I also don't want to trespass on your privacy. So let's find a way to talk about it without getting too personal and making anyone uncomfortable.

[Jason Isbell]

We need an audio intimacy coordinator.

[Terry Gross]

I love that idea. Start something new. So I guess the first thing I'm wondering is, if you write a song that is critical of the person who'd been married to and who's the mother of your daughter, do you feel guilty about it. Like, how do you. Do you fear? Is there a form of self censorship that comes in because you don't want to hurt the other person? Or do you just write what you want to write? And I think this is something that particularly memoirists run into all the time.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, where am I being critical?

[Terry Gross]

The song I'm about to play, for example, which is gravel weed. I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me. I'm sorry the day came when I felt I was raised. So it's kind of like you needed her to help you get through a period and now you don't need her anymore because you got through it.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, now, I didn't say I'm sorry the day came when I was raised. I said I'm sorry the day came when I felt like I was raised.

[Terry Gross]

That's true. You say when I felt I was raised. Yes.

[Jason Isbell]

And then the next chorus, I say, and you couldn't reach me when I felt like I was raised.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Jason Isbell]

Okay, so I'm still looking for the critical part.

[Terry Gross]

So you think you're being self critical?

[Jason Isbell]

This is not my job. You see, my job is to write the songs. But it's in there. If you look close enough, your answers are all in there. I think that I'm always being self critical. I think I'm being as honest as I can be. And I think I am forcing myself to work at a higher level in some ways than I have worked before. Not necessarily in the part where it's, you know, it's. It's glitter and dust and look what I can do. Look at the phrases. I can turn. But in a way, let's see how much I can show people and still be neutral and still be an observer in my own life. And it's there. If I've slipped, let me know because I think it's there.

[Terry Gross]

So let's play the song and I'll say I'm from Brooklyn and I had to look up what a gravel weed was.

[Jason Isbell]

It's like the tree, the crack in the sidewalk, you know?

[Terry Gross]

Well, I looked it up and it looks like it grows really tall with flowers.

[Jason Isbell]

It does. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

In the part of the country where you're from, which is Alabama.

[Jason Isbell]

But it is, as Amanda and her dad would say, it's a trash plant.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Jason Isbell]

Her dad's a florist, or not a florist, but he grows commercial flowers. And so they would call it a trash plant.

[Terry Gross]

All right.

[Jason Isbell]

Not me. That's not a metaphor. Yeah, we're not doing the job Right now. We're just talking right now. The gravel weed itself would be the kind of plant that you would pull. You know, you would pull it up out of the gravel so your gravel would look nice and neat. And most people would do that. Some people would say, well, that grows very tall and grows flowers if you let it grow.

[Terry Gross]

All right, let's hear the actual song written and performed by my guest, Jason Isbell.

[Jason Isbell]

I wish that I could be angry I wish I didn't understand I said your skin was like water and let you flow right through my hands They're a love that's not crazy Is there a life that's not alive? All I know is I had to go and you know why? Why? Why? I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me and you couldn't reach me Once I felt like I was raised but now that I live to see my melodies betray me I'm sorry the love. So songs all mean different things today.

[Terry Gross]

That's Jason Isbell, Gravelweed from his new album, which is called Foxes in the Snow. I want to quote another line from there, which is, but now I've lived to see my melodies betray me I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today can you talk about that a little bit? Having written love songs about one person and then written, inspired, I think, by the same relationship, songs about the relationship ending. How do those old love songs sound to you now, and do you still play them? Can you still play Cover Me up, for instance?

[Jason Isbell]

I can, yeah. Yeah. And the old songs, they mean different things to me now, but because I have hindsight, you know, and the emotions that I'm feeling now when I'm playing those songs, they're not the same as they were when I wrote them, you know, they're certainly not that sort of obsession. There's more nostalgia for the person that I was when I felt that way. And there's also a document of love that I had for someone, and I feel like that was reciprocated at the time. And, you know, I mean, that's. That's just art, you know, that's. Our lives change. And the hard part for me is not writing about it. The hard part is making the decisions that lead me to peace. That's very, very difficult. But I'm not just going to whine for the rest of my life. I have been given too much already for that.

[Terry Gross]

So many love songs and breakup songs have been written in every genre for centuries. How do you find new things to say, new words to use in a love song. I mean, Ira Gershwin even wrote a lyric. What can you say in a love song that's never been said before?

[Jason Isbell]

Which is a beautiful lyric. That's one way to do it. You know, What I try to do is closely document my own experience, even though I think my audience might not recognize themselves in this story, usually what winds up happening is I come up with something that I might not be saying. A new thing. I might not. You know, everybody's looking at the moon, but we're all looking at it from a different spot. And so I'm trying to say, instead of this is what the moon looks like. I'm trying to say, this is what the moon looks like from right here. And, you know, also, you don't have to say anything new. To tell you the truth, you don't. You can combine words and melodies in a way that sounds familiar. I think my rule is, as long as you don't know who you're ripping off before the song comes out, then you're okay.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play another track from your new album, and this is called True Believer. And do you want to say anything about writing this song before we hear it? This is another relationship song, another breaking up or broken up kind of song.

[Jason Isbell]

No, I like the melody and the chorus on this one. This is one where my daughter Mercy, she's nine. She likes to listen to the pop hits of the day on her way to school and back home. And so I've been listening to a lot of the current pop hits and thought, man, I need to write this big, huge melody to go with this really sad song. So I like that melody a lot.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, I did, too.

[Jason Isbell]

So thank you.

[Terry Gross]

So this is True Believer.

[Jason Isbell]

Take your hand off my knee Take your foot off my neck why y'all examining me like I'm a murderous suspect? If I got a little loose I just forgot to be afraid But I started out a true believer, babe.

[Terry Gross]

A.

[Jason Isbell]

Lot of dangerous memories A lot of.

Bars in this town.

But, oh, to have loved and lost and then still stuck around But I heard God in the rhyme and I crawled out of.

The grave and I guess I'm still a true believer Baby.

All your girlfriends say I broke your heart and I don't like it There's a letter on the nightstand I don't think I'll ever read well, I finally found a match and you kept daring me to strike it Now I have to let it burn Let it be.

[Terry Gross]

So that's Jason Isbell from his new album, Foxes in the Snow. The song is called True Believer. You had asked me earlier, like, give me an example of a line where I sound critical of my ex or of an ex. So from the song, we just heard two separate lines. Take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck. And then all your girlfriends say, I broke your bleeping heart, and I don't like it. There's a letter on the nightstand. I don't think I'll ever read it. So that sounds. It sounds angry, and you sing it angry.

[Jason Isbell]

Okay. But those first two lines keep going. When you said, take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck.

[Terry Gross]

When you get to, I finally found a match, and you're daring me. I'm trying to remember what the next line is.

[Jason Isbell]

It is, why are y'all examining me like I'm a murder suspect?

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yes, right.

[Jason Isbell]

Y'all would be the plural. So the person who's being addressed is not a single person. There's no criticism of a single person in that line.

[Terry Gross]

The second one, Take your hand off my knee and your foot off my neck. I love these songs. So I'm not criticizing you or the song. I'm just wondering what it's like to write songs that are critical of somebody you've been so close to or at least seem to be about that.

[Jason Isbell]

I very much appreciate it, and I know that you're not. And I don't mean to be sounding argumentative. I'm trying to show the trick a little bit. I think the closer you pay attention to this record, the more gracious the lyric becomes. I think time has a way of making us feel that way about each other after something like a breakup. I think perspective, empathy for the other person starts to sink in as time passes. I was hoping that that's how it would work with the lyrics on this record because it sounds accusatory. It sounds angry. And then you go back and think, well, who's he accusing and who's he angry at? And I think, unless I'm wrong, I think in every situation, the closer you look, the more it becomes obvious that the record's about growing and changing as me, myself, and not about accusing Amanda or any other individual person. I'm trying to push myself, and I'm trying to work in a different way than how I've worked in the past.

[Terry Gross]

So let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll be back for more music and conversation. After a break. Hi, I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.

[Jason Isbell]

Everything's green right now, Tennessee at the end of June. You get a day to come down. We'll ride to Roberts in the afternoon before the room gets packed. We'll claim a table at the upstairs bar.

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[Terry Gross]

I want to ask you about your early life. You grew up in two churches. Your father was part of the Pentecostal Church. Your grandfather was a preacher in the church. Your mother was with the Church of Christ in the Pentecostal Church. When you were growing up, the church you went to had instruments and it sounds like they were maybe electrified instruments.

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah, there were. Yeah, there were big like PV amps and a drum set and all that kind of stuff.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Whereas in your mother's church, Church of Christ, instruments weren't allowed. It was just singing. So how could you be sure? Which was like the true Christian approach when you were growing up with two opposite approaches to music. And you started playing music like when you were six when you got a mandolin. So, like you're really deeply involved with music. And one church says instruments are wrong in church. They do not belong in this holy place. And the other says turn up the amp.

[Jason Isbell]

I feel like that question is still above my pay grade. You know, I just liked both of them and I think I preferred the one with the loud amps, to tell you the truth. But there was one moment where I'd gone to my dad's family's church a couple Sundays, and they spoke in tongues. When it was time to pray, everyone in the church, they started praying all at the same time, out loud in what they considered to be a spiritually motivated language. Really, I think chances are they were just kind of making it up. It was sort of gibberish, but they spoke in tongues. And then when I went to my mom's church, the Church of Christ, most people in the congregation did not speak at all. Usually just the preacher or a few people who were designated to speak. So when it came time to pray, the preacher would do the praying, and occasionally you would hear kind of a quiet amen from somebody in the congregation. But I got them confused. And I was, I don't know, probably four years old, old. And when it came time to pray in my mom's Church of Christ church, I just dropped down to my knees and started yelling in gibberish. And, oh, my mom grabbed me by the back of the neck, like, get.

[Terry Gross]

Up, get up, get up, get up, get up.

[Jason Isbell]

Be quiet. It was a very embarrassing moment for her. I still don't know which one's right. I kind of hope it's neither of them at this point in my life, but musically, I was very, very fortunate. Very fortunate, because my family were all very musical people. My par play any instruments, but everybody else in the family did, and that's sort of how we all bonded.

[Terry Gross]

There's a song from an earlier album. The song is called Wyatt Baretta, and I just want to quote a couple of the lines in it. You're right. And I don't know if this is autobiographical, but you're right. I was raised in the blood, and we were all saved before we even left home. And there's a line, I thank God you weren't brought up like me with all that shame and certainty. So, you know, we often talk about the shame instilled in us by some religions, but I want you to talk about the certainty. The certainty that you were brought up with that you maybe later rejected.

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah, I don't know that I needed it as much as my parents and grandparents and great grandparents needed it. I think for them, there's very little reward in this world. And to keep them going, probably survival instinct, to keep them on the straight and narrow, they needed to store up their reward in the next life or, you know, in heaven. For me, I'm very, very lucky. I have been able to do the thing that I love the most every single day. And I've been rewarded for it in a way that sometimes seems ridiculous. So I don't know that I have the same needs that they had, but they had to have a certainty of heaven and a certainty of hell. And, you know, if we keep our wits about us, treat each other well, be honest, do the right things according to the scripture, then we'll go to heaven and we'll get our reward. And if we don't, then we'll go to hell and we'll get the exact opposite of a reward. I think what really started crumbling the cookie for me was, you know, hell just seemed just way worse than it should have been. Like, it didn't have to be that bad. It was like the fire was, like, seven times hotter and the pitchforks and the constant torture. And it's just really hard for me to believe, you know, that for stealing a pair of sunglasses or, you know, I don't know, kissing your buddy's girlfriend, that you were gonna, you know, go to actual hell. So I started, maybe this is not all literal. And then everything just sort of fell apart as far as organized, structured, biblical religion for me.

[Terry Gross]

So you were taught to read the Bible literally. And I know that there was a period, and I don't know how old you were when you were doing this. You assigned yourself to read a passage from the Bible every night. What was that about? Why were you doing that?

[Jason Isbell]

That was about obsessive compulsive disorder. That's what that was about? Yeah, that was so I didn't die in my sleep. And it worked. It worked.

[Terry Gross]

So what made you think that that's what you needed to do to protect yourself?

[Jason Isbell]

That's a really good question. What made me think that? Chemicals in my brain. Maybe trauma from, you know, growing up in rural Alabama with really young parents. For some reason, I thought that someone was looking out for me. But I also was very afraid of that God and had taught to be very afraid of my grandfather anytime when I was little. I remember being two years old, three years old, asking him, what are you afraid of? Because he seemed like the strong. He looked like Clint Eastwood. He seemed like the toughest dude that ever lived. And I said, what are you afraid of? He would say, the only thing I'm afraid of is God. That's all I'm afraid of. I remember thinking, well, God must be pretty scary then. So I think I was sort of bartering with the man upstairs as a child, you know, every night thinking, well, he's not going to let me die if I'm the best Bible reader there is among six year old children in the state of Alabama. Pretty tough competition turns out.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's take another short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[NPR]

Hey, it's hey, Martinez. A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on one story, but sometimes you need for up first on NPR, we bring you the three top world headlines every single day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in Este Mundo Tangrande on any given morning. So listen to the upverse podcast from npr. Since Donald Trump took office in January, a lot has happened. The White House Budget Office ordered a pause on all federal grants and loans. The impact of the Trump administration's tariffs is already being felt in President Trump's.

[Terry Gross]

Efforts to radically remake the federal government.

[NPR]

The NPR Politics podcast covers it all. Keep up with what's happening in Washington and beyond with the NPR Politics podcast. Listen every day I want to play.

[Terry Gross]

Another track from the new album, and this is called Crimson and Clay. And I know you say you don't think about what you're going to do before you start writing a song. You just sit down and start writing it. Nevertheless, I'm going to ask to you, is there anything you want to say to introduce the song and what inspired it?

[Jason Isbell]

This one, this happens to me a lot. And maybe I should sit down before I write this song and make a plan because sometimes I'll think, well, I think I'm going to write a love song to my hometown or to the place where I grew up. And then usually third or fourth verse, the difficult stuff finds its way in. And I think, well, if I'm going to be honest, I'm going to have to be honest. And that's kind of how this song went. We were going just fine early on. And then get to that bridge, that third verse, and it's like, oh, boy, out of nowhere comes the tough stuff.

[Terry Gross]

You want to quote that part?

[Jason Isbell]

Oh, where does it start?

[Terry Gross]

It starts, Is that the part with the little noose?

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah, there's a little noose in a locker. When I was in school, there was a girl who was living in the Christian children's home just a few couple miles away from my high school and a black girl. And almost everyone in our school, K through 12, we were all white kids and redneck, like poor white people and this little girl came to school from the Christian Children's Home. And there was. I think somebody hung a noose or drew a picture of a noose and put it in her locker. And she changed schools, went somewhere else after that. And then there was a. We had a couple teachers who were black, and their children came to that school but didn't wind up graduating. Something happened, and I'm not sure the details, but they just all sort of moved away and went somewhere else. And so that was the picture in my mind when I was working on the bridge of that song.

[Terry Gross]

There's also crosses on the wall someplace in the song.

[Jason Isbell]

There's rebel flags, rebel flags on the highway and wooden crosses on the wall.

[Terry Gross]

So I assume the wooden crosses were Christian crosses, but I was wondering if. Were they Clan Crisis?

[Jason Isbell]

No, no, they were on the wall. I mean, it's the same cross, Terry.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jason Isbell]

It's the same cross.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't we hear the song and then we can talk about it more after we hear it. So this is Crimson and Clay from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow.

[Jason Isbell]

I got a little bolt action my 9th birthday I can flip a silver dollar from a hundred yards away 1911 under my floor man, then one day it just occurred to me I got no use for that Guess the city didn't kill me after all this hang that nearly took me out Was loneliness and alcohol and I just put it down and walked away Crawled back to the crimson in the clay See the moon in the morning I anticipate the night Lick the spoon in the kitchen we prayed to Mars and white.

A.

Little noose in a locker Brown eyes crying in a hall Rebel flags on the highway Wooden crosses on wall Guess the small town didn't suit me after all still so many lonely kids Surrounded by the rest of y'all and I can't seem to keep myself away so I head back to the crimson and.

The clay.

[Terry Gross]

That was crimson and Clay from, I guess, Jason Isbell's new solo album, Foxes in the Snow. You know, I love how the chorus keeps going, like, guess the highway didn't kill me after all Guess the city didn't kill me after all and then Guess a small town didn't suit me after all I want to ask you about the highway, you know, Guess the highway didn't kill me after all and the next line is, well, I thought I was a goner in that trail of fire in Arkansas, if that is at all autobiographical. What happened?

[Jason Isbell]

Well, so we used to have a pull behind, very small pull behind trailer that went behind the van and the cap, sort of like a hubcap, I guess. It is a hubcap. It would sometimes come off and all of the grease from inside the axle on the trailer would shoot out onto the highway and the trailer would catch on fire. I don't know how many times that trailer caught on fire. More than once as we were going down the road and people would pull up beside us and roll the window down and be waving and shouting and yelling. We'd be too tired or too stoned to realize what they were saying for a few minutes and then look in the rearview mirror and sure enough, it was flames coming out of the wheels of the trailer. Yeah. So that really happened.

[Terry Gross]

Was it with your parents?

[Jason Isbell]

No, no, no. This was my rock and roll band.

[Terry Gross]

Oh. Cause I know. Didn't you live in a trailer for a while with your parents?

[Jason Isbell]

Yes, yes. Different kind of trailer, though. This was. Yeah, that was a house trailer, but this was a pull behind trailer with their equipment in it.

[Terry Gross]

Did you find that terrifying? I'd be terrified.

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know about. We were pretty feral. And at that point, I'm probably pretty drunk. Yeah. Pretty drunk or hungover enough to basically be drunk or stoned or, you know, I don't know. That fear kicked in for us the way it probably should have in those days. There are a lot of situations where we came very close to death and we were just layers and layers of exhausted and for some stupid reason kept on going and kept on working until we got to a point to where we could lay down and go to the bathroom on the bus and buy some groceries and put them in the fridge and hear ourselves on stage. And then people start showing up and more people start showing up, and finally, you know, you're looking for different challenges. But back in those days, we just put our nose down and ran at the wall.

[Terry Gross]

So I'm assuming that was in your early days of performing with the drive by truckers as opposed to with your current band.

[Jason Isbell]

Oh, it was with the truckers and then with my current band again, because when I got fired from the truckers, I had to go back in the van.

[Terry Gross]

When the truckers fired you because you were so drunk and I guess undisciplined, what message did you take away from that?

[Jason Isbell]

That they were being unfair to me and that they were jealous. That was the message. That was the message I took away for a long time. And then I came around and understood that I needed to get my ass in gear and honor the gift of being able to make music and be kinder to people and take better care of myself. And, you know, since then, I mean, I've reconnected with them. I consider them to be very good friends. And, you know, I talk to Patterson all the time, but. But yeah, at the time I took away from it that they're jealous and mean.

[Terry Gross]

Let's take another short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[NPR]

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[Terry Gross]

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[Jason Isbell]

Join us on our adventure.

[Terry Gross]

Talk to me.

[Jason Isbell]

Show me what you got to find.

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[Terry Gross]

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[Terry Gross]

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[NPR]

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[Terry Gross]

You've been sober for around 15 years or more, right?

[Jason Isbell]

13 years. I just got my 13th tick mark tattoo. I do them on my right forearm.

[Terry Gross]

How is sobriety different now than it was in the early years of sobriety?

[Jason Isbell]

It's not as sneaky, or at least not as quick. It's still sneaky, but it's not as quick. You know, the alcohol, all those things. I think what's really changed is my ability to recognize the addiction speaking to me and my ability and motivation to share those feelings with people that I'm close to. Early on, I was in my recovery process. Early on, I was embarrassed that I'd ever been an alcoholic to begin with. And if I wanted a drink, I just sat there and wanted a drink. I didn't have one and I didn't say a word. And now if it Gets anywhere near me. If I start thinking, wouldn't it be nice to turn these feelings off for a little while? Clock out for a minute. I'll tell somebody. I'll tell somebody that I know cares about me. And that's gotten easier. Just like anything else, you practice it, and it gets easier. The last year has been tough on me emotionally. I know it's been hard on a lot of people for a lot of reasons, but I'm very grateful for the fact that I don't mind talking about it. I think that's what's kept me sober for all these years.

[Terry Gross]

Well, this leads us right into a song, and it's from an earlier album, and the song is, it gets easier, but it never gets easy. And it's a song about staying sober. Do you want to say anything about writing it?

[Jason Isbell]

You know, it's. It's. It's. You think it's hard to write a love song? Try writing a damn recovery song and not sounding like a bumper sticker. Yeah, that's very hard. But you got to be personal, you know, and you got to be very small. And, you know, like when I say, last night I dreamed that I'd been drinking, you know, I didn't say, last night I dreamed that I was drinking. And that's never how it worked for me. The dream would always be I had just taken a drink, and then I would sort of come to in the dream and think, whoa, what did I just do? Why is there an empty glass in my hand? Why am I feeling intoxicated? You know, I never got to enjoy the drink. It was always just, you just had a drink. Welcome to this nightmare. You know, So I worked hard on that song to make sure that, like I was talking about earlier, make sure that it scans right, that it sounds conversational, that it doesn't sound forced, like you're jamming syllables in where they don't belong. And if you can do that, you'll cut out a whole lot of your potential for cliche, because you can accept a cliche when I'm just saying it to you. If I say, there's no bigger cliche than I love you, but if I say it and I mean it and it sounds natural, then you're not going to think, what a cliche. It works that way in songs, too. If you can use lyrics and phrases and subject matter that have been covered so many times in the past. But if you get it to sing just right, then people forget they're listening to a song at all.

[Terry Gross]

So we're unfortunately out of time. I want to end with some music. I've picked all the music for this interview, so it's your turn. I want you to pick something to end with.

[Jason Isbell]

Let's see. Let's play Eileen. Have we played Eileen?

[Terry Gross]

No, we haven't. I was thinking of that, too. I really love that.

[Jason Isbell]

Let's play Eileen. I think there's some really good turns of phrase in that song, and it's lower in my vocal register than anything I've ever sang before. A little over a year ago, I lost my voice, and I think part of this was probably psychosomatic, but also, I had just been yelling for 30 years and never really learned how to sing. And when my voice went out, I had this really traumatic experience where I was singing a Bon Jovi song at the Music Cares tribute to Jon Bon Jovi. And I don't know if you know this, but Bon Jovi songs are not easy to sing. Sing. And I look down, and there sits John with Bruce Springsteen and Paul McCartney, and they're all sitting right in front of me, and they start counting off the song. And I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm not going to do a good job. And I didn't, you know, and. And it didn't kill me. And I started taking vocal lessons and got an ent and learned how to sing over the course of the next year. And so not only can I sing higher than I used to, but I can sing lower, too, and Eileen is in a really low key for me.

[Terry Gross]

Do you feel like you've found a trap door in your throat that you could sing through without destroying your vocal cords?

[Jason Isbell]

Yes. Yes. Have you ever had vocal lessons? Because that's exactly how it feels.

[Terry Gross]

I have, and I wish I could say that I can really sing now, but, you know, I just sing for myself and don't disturb others with. Even my cat gets angry when you're singing.

[Jason Isbell]

Well, cats kind of stay angry, you know, but, yes, it does. The technique of used to be so much work, and I would get so much fatigue from night to night, and, yeah, now I'm very, very happy. And being able to learn something that's just so important to my work and to my life, you know, in my mid-40s is a pretty wonderful thing.

[Terry Gross]

Well, it's a gift to us, your fans, if you can keep singing. So that's great.

[Jason Isbell]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

So we'll end with Eileen, but first, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure to have you back on the show. And thanks for the new album, Terry.

[Jason Isbell]

Thank you. You truly are an American treasure. I'm always a little bit nervous to talk to you because I know how smart you are and how much I enjoy listening, listening to your show. And it's an honor for me that.

[Terry Gross]

Means so much to me. Thank you so much.

[Jason Isbell]

Started out like it always starts. Try to hold the hunger back you don't anticipate a broken heart can't see.

Nothing but the track A diamond earring.

In a bowery bed you kicked your shoes across the floor earrings. Do you regret the things that went unsaid or have you heard it all before?

Eileen, you should have seen this coming sooner. Do I mean to be alone for all my days? Eileen, you thought the truth was just a rumor, but that's your way.

[Terry Gross]

Jason Isbell's new album is called Foxes in the Snow. To find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free [e-mail] fresh air. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Mabel Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Susan Yakundi directed today's show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

[NPR]

Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual, but that doesn't mean we're going to church. Nope. The girls are doing Reiki, the bros are doing psychedelics, and a whole lot of us are turning inward to manifest our best selves. On It's Been a Minute from npr. I'm looking at why maybe you and your closest friends are buying into Wellness for spirituality. That's on the It's Been a Minute podcast from npr. Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals and ridiculous science studies, and call it wake. Wait, don't tell me. Because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.