Jeff Hiller’s Big Break Came In His 40s

Summary

Fresh Air: Jeff Hiller’s Big Break Came In His 40s
Aired January 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and witty conversation from Fresh Air, host Terry Gross sits down with Emmy-winning actor and comedian Jeff Hiller, whose breakthrough role as Joel in HBO’s Somebody Somewhere came after decades of typecasting and struggle. Drawing from his new memoir, Actress of a Certain Age: My 20-Year Trail to Overnight Success, Hiller discusses his unlikely path to stardom, the joys and sorrows linked to identity and ambition, the importance of found family and community, his improvisational roots, and how church, self-acceptance, and resilience shaped both his artistry and life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power and Pain of Being “Typecast” (08:18–12:51)

• Hiller reflects on decades of playing minor, often stereotypically “bitchy gay” roles (from 30 Rock to Broad City and Law & Order), humorously noting the frustration and necessity of such gigs:
  • “It was more during those long periods in between these small jobs, when I would think, I know I have more to give...” (11:16, Jeff Hiller)
  • “Honestly, being the guy who enhances the photo on Law and Order was a huge win.” (11:44, Jeff Hiller)
• Feeling powerless in the industry inspired Hiller to create his own work, including writing and improv:
  • “That’s why I started writing my own shows and doing standup. And that’s why I love improv so much — I could control that.”

2. Similarities Between Hiller and His Character “Joel” (04:23–07:20)

• Hiller and Joel share earnestness, warmth, chosen families, and even vision boards. His real-life wish for a Vitamix blender became a story detail in the show:
  • “...on one of them, I did have a Vitamix, and the writers didn’t know that. My mom got me one for my birthday. So it just feels very— I’m very like Joel...” (04:36, Jeff Hiller)
• Both longed for children but do not have them, leading to an ongoing mourning of “unrealized” dreams, a major theme in Season 3.

3. Finding Community, Safety, and the Complexity of Church (13:34–19:30)

• Enduring bullying at school: Hiller candidly recounts how bullying for being gay, chubby, and different led to self-loathing:
  • “I did kind of think I deserved it because...” (13:34, Jeff Hiller)
  • “They really went for it. They got the gold medal there.” (14:13, Jeff Hiller)
• Church as refuge and eventual disappointment:
  • “A lot of people feel that the church is a place that is oppressive and othering...but for me, the church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved. It wasn’t until I came out that I kind of realized they weren’t really into gay people yet…” (15:06–16:14, Jeff Hiller)
• Music/theater and church overlap: The choir offered unity at school amidst rejection elsewhere.

4. Pivoting from Pastor to Performer (18:22–20:35)

• At one point, Hiller aspired to be a pastor. After discovering the Lutheran church’s policies against openly gay pastors, he turned to social work, then ultimately acting — with humor about his “identity-confusing time” temping by day and improvising by night:
  • “Now I just do silly jokes in this basement of this Gristede’s grocery store.” (20:28, Jeff Hiller)

5. Improv Roots, Success, and a Skewed Meritocracy (21:48–27:53)

• Improv as salvation and frustration:
  • “Only 1% of improv is funny. That’s a pretty terrible track record.” (23:25, Terry Gross / 23:45, Jeff Hiller)
  • Hiller taught at UCB (notably co-founded by Amy Poehler) and worked with/complemented now-famous comics like Abbi Jacobson, Ilana Glazer, Aubrey Plaza, Donald Glover, among others.
  • Watching peers succeed prompted self-doubt, not resentment:
    • “I really kept thinking, it’s something I’m doing...I’m too gay or I’m too ugly or I’m too big because I’m very tall...I think that was me bullying myself.” (26:58, Jeff Hiller)
    • “Showbiz ain’t fair. It’s not a meritocracy.” (27:45, Jeff Hiller)

6. Nimbleness and Survival: Commercials, Acting Niche, and Making Ends Meet (28:05–30:37)

• Delight in quirky gigs (like performing as a cockroach at Union Square) and the reliability of commercial work, even for a single word:
  • “There’s one commercial where your line is ‘wedges’... Commercials saved me so many times financially and allowing me to get health insurance through SAG.” (29:37, Jeff Hiller)
  • “...When you have tiny little roles, you just need to do this one thing so we can get on with it. We don’t need to analyze what the character’s thinking. We don’t care. We just want you to do the thing.” (30:20, Jeff Hiller)

7. Breakthrough: HBO’s Somebody Somewhere (07:20–08:18, 32:12–35:24)

• Hiller credits Somebody Somewhere with financial security, artistic validation, and wider recognition:
  • “On just the most base level, I don’t have to teach improv or temp or cater waiter...I’m financially stable now where I wasn’t before. And then it also just made me feel like an artist...Joel let me show that.” (07:24, Jeff Hiller)
• The thrill of singing on-screen with Bridget Everett, his admiration of her as a performer, and the joy of crossing from fan to peer:
  • “I can’t believe I got to sing a duet with Bridget Everett on television.” (35:11, Jeff Hiller)

8. Resilience Through Setbacks and Midlife Crisis (35:24–38:17)

• Recounting an excruciatingly hopeful, then crushing Sondheim audition:
  • “I thought, oh, no. Maybe that’s what was happening...I did not get that show...But there’s something about hearing a no that’s like, okay, closure, and you just move on.” (36:36, Jeff Hiller)
• Describes a low point at 40 — broke, caring for dying parents, feeling like a failure — until his late break:
  • “I felt like I had wasted my life and all I had to show for it was credit card bills and nothing else.” (37:55, Jeff Hiller)

9. Mother’s Support, Coming Out, and Chosen Family (38:23–39:44)

• His mother’s loving, hands-off approach to coming out, and how it sustained him through hardship:
  • “She had done all of this work to make me feel loved and safe. And I'm so grateful for having her, because I don’t think I would have survived having my school journey and also not having a safe home. It would have been too much.” (39:23, Jeff Hiller)

10. Health, Body Image, and On-Camera Realities (40:46–43:47)

• Discusses living with frontal fibrosing alopecia and morphia, and the personal/professional impact:
  • “Whenever an actor has their shirt off, it’s either because you want to look at them and be like, wow, they are hot, or it’s to be like, oh my gosh, they’re so not hot.” (42:13, Jeff Hiller)
  • “...It’s just one more reason that I’m uncomfortable...and then you hope you don’t go in the beach and your fake hair floats away in the ocean.” (43:38, Jeff Hiller)

11. Memoir, Glamour, and Camp (43:52–45:03)

• Terry and Jeff banter about his memoir’s campy, scarf-laden cover and persona — striking a balance between glamour, humor, and wink-to-the-audience sensibility.

12. Not Taking NPR Too Seriously (45:13–46:27)

• Hiller affectionately pokes fun at Terry Gross’s iconic “serious NPR intro voice,” prompting this graceful exchange:
  • Terry: “How can I make my intros sound less serious?”
  • Jeff: “Oh, don’t you dare. It’s part of the joy of listening to it…when you said, This is Fresh Air. It’s like a little slide we go down. I hope I’m not making you self-conscious. I love it.” (45:54–46:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On hope and aging out of dreams:

“We’re in our 40s, and it hasn’t happened yet.” (03:02, “Sam” in show clip)
“Most of [Joel’s] arc in season three is about realizing that his life is good and...he has to mourn the things he really wanted and didn’t get. And that was a really powerful teacher for me, too.” (06:17, Jeff Hiller)

On resilience in showbiz:

“Showbiz ain’t fair. It’s not a meritocracy.” (27:45, Jeff Hiller)

On representation and stereotype roles:

“If you’re obviously gay but not hot, you just play the bitchy gay.” (01:10, Terry Gross quoting Hiller)

On church as unlikely sanctuary:

“...For me, the church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved. It wasn’t until I came out that I realized they weren’t really into gay people yet.” (15:12, Jeff Hiller)

On the NPR intro:

“Oh, don’t you dare. It’s part of the joy of listening to it. ...when you said, This is Fresh Air. It’s like a little slide we go down.” (45:54, Jeff Hiller)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Joel’s Vision Board / Being “late bloomers”: 02:31–03:32
• Comparing real Jeff to Joel: 04:23–07:20
• Breakthrough of Somebody Somewhere: 07:20–08:18
• Playing stereotypes & small roles: 08:18–12:51
• Bullying, self-esteem, church: 13:34–17:26
• Improv: joy and limitations: 21:48–25:34
• Peers’ success, industry fairness: 26:11–27:53
• On-camera survival jobs: 28:05–30:37
• Singing duet with Bridget Everett: 32:12–35:24
• Midlife crisis at 40: 37:05–38:17
• Mother’s loving support during coming out: 38:17–39:44
• Health & body image issues: 40:55–43:47
• Memoir cover & NPR voice banter: 43:52–46:27

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Tone and Language

The episode blends candid self-reflection, vulnerability, warmth, and dry humor, often oscillating between poignant admissions and self-deprecating wit. Hiller is especially open about insecurity, resilience, and the bittersweet realities of being a gay actor in middle age — always with undertones of hope, gratitude, and a knack for finding the joke in every situation. Gross meets him with respect, humor, and gentle probing, creating an atmosphere that is revealing, funny, and moving.

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This summary offers a thorough insight into Jeff Hiller’s journey, as explored in a charming, thoughtful, and moving Fresh Air interview — an episode rich in laughter, lessons, and late-blooming dreams.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're continuing our series featuring some of our favorite interviews of 2025. I think it's fair to say that everyone who watched the HBO series Somebody Somewhere, including me, wanted actor Jeff Hiller to be their friend. He played Joel, a sympathetic and supportive friend with a great sense of humor. Somebody Somewhere was the big break Hiller had been hoping for for decades. As he writes in his new memoir, if you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay, which is what he played in lots of small parts in episodes of a lot of TV shows and commercials. More recently, he played a serial killer who targets gay men in American Horror Story. His memoir is called Actress of a certain my 20 year trail to overnight success. Somebody Somewhere concluded its third and final season at the end of 2024. Hiller won an Emmy in 2025 for his performance in the show. The story is built around the characters of Sam, played by Bridget Everett and Joel, Jeff Hiller's character. When the series begins, Sam had returned from to Manhattan, Kansas, where she grew up to help care for her sister who was dying of cancer. After the sister's death, Sam stays in Kansas, where her other sister still lives. Sam has no friends there and has an argumentative relationship with her sister. Sam feels so lost and rejected that she takes offense easily and doesn't realize that in order to avoid rejection, she's pushing people away. But she becomes very close to Joel. He introduces her to his found family of LGBTQ people and artists who secretly have a nighttime cabaret at the church where Joel is the pianist and has a key. He gets her to sing again. She's a great singer who doesn't think she's any good. In the second episode, when they're becoming friends, she visits his home and sees a large, elaborate collage standing up against the wall in the living room. She asks if it's his dream board and he corrects her. It's his vision board. Bridget Everett's character, Sam, speaks first.

[A]

You really spent some time on this. You go to Paris. You got an Eiffel Tower there. Well, just Europe. I want to go to Europe. Okay. Oh, and then of course, everybody's hands and a heart community. Uh huh. Great. Was that a blender or something? It's a Vitamix. I just. I really want to have a nice kitchen and. Oh, what's this one? Is this you and Michael and your nine adopted kids or what? It's not nine. It's six. And four of them are adopted. Yes. Okay. And you want to do all of this here in Kansas? Yeah, this is where I live. Oh. Family prayer circles, pots with cactus and. I mean, what is wrong with this? What's wrong with this? I'm dreaming about the future. This is what I want. Well, I mean, dream all you want, Joel, but this is the future. We're in our 40s, and it hasn't happened yet.

[B]

Has.

[A]

Hasn't happened for you. It hasn't happened for me. And that's because it's not going to happen. And it's definitely not going to happen here. Keep cutting up your pictures, but that's the way it is. We deserve to be happy. I'm not sure. I don't know. You know what? I think I should go. Don't go. I'm gonna go.

[B]

Don't leave.

[A]

We gotta go.

[B]

Jeff Hiller, welcome to FRESH air. I love the series, and you are so great in it. Thank you so much for being on the show. Congratulations on the Emmy nomination and the memoir.

[A]

Thank you. Wow. I've got a lot going on.

[B]

Yes. So since we just heard your character, Joel's vision board, let's talk about the similarities between you and Joel. Cause there are several. You want to point some out?

[A]

Sure. Well, first of all, I make vision boards. Well, I've done it twice. I've done it twice and before the series even. And on one of them, I did have a Vitamix, and the writers didn't know that. And I had a Vitamix on my vision board, and my mom got me one for my birthday. And so it just feels very. I'm very like Joel in that sense. And I think I'm also someone who is warm and likes to laugh and is joyful. And as you said in the intro, I've normally played sort of rude customer service representatives. And so it felt like such a joy to play Joel because he did feel a lot more like me. Rather than putting on a scowl and acting, it felt very like something I really knew how to do because he was so similar to me. But I'm not so similar that I can look at you and say, if you sing at my party, everything will be better in your life that I don't know how to do, which I feel guilty about, because I think sometimes people approach me on the street wanting that.

[B]

I'll also point out you both have a very good sense of humor, because, I mean, like, your thing is improv comedy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's what you did for years. So, like, you know how to be funny.

[A]

Yeah, I hope so.

[B]

You're just naturally funny.

[A]

Yeah, I hope so.

[B]

Yeah, we'll put that to the test.

[A]

Exactly. We'll see at the end of this interview.

[B]

Another thing you have in common with the characters. You both want children and don't have them.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And most of his arc in season three is about realizing that his life is good and he's happy with his life, but he has to mourn the things that he really wanted and didn't get. And that was a really powerful teacher for me, too, because I did. It's funny. I was never one of those people that was carrying around a baby doll, being like, I can't wait to be a parent. But I was also never one of those people that's like, why are there kids here? But you're at McDonald's. I'm not one of those people either. I like kids. I love hanging out with them. And I do really have this need to provide safety for someone. And that's the thing that I really miss by not having had kids. But I'm almost 50. My husband doesn't want them. It's not like I can just toss away the pill and see what happens. So I think that probably is not going to happen. And just like Joel, I'm. I'm mourning that too. Yeah.

[B]

How did somebody somewhere change your life?

[A]

Well, on just the most base level, I don't have to teach improv or temp or cater waiter. I mean, like, I'm financially stable now where I wasn't before. And then it also just made me feel like an artist. I know that's sort of a heavy thing to say, but I do feel like I'm someone who had more to give than I was able to give previously. And I feel like Joel let me show that. And then also, it's just, you know, people in Hollywood know who I am now, whereas before, nobody knew who I was. Maybe a couple casting directors, but not fancy people. Not the president of hbo, surely. And now, now people know who I am, and that's not nothing.

[B]

So I mentioned this quote in my introduction, but I'm gonna mention it again. You write, if you're gay but not hot, you play the bitchy gay. So to prove that, oh, no, we're gonna play just a few clips of you in very small parts. Okay, so we'll start with 30 Rock. This is an episode in which you're a flight attendant on a plane. All the passengers have been sitting on the plane waiting to take off for, like, a really long time. So you're the flight attendant trying to, like, distract them by telling them that they can watch videos because they can't use the bathroom and they can't eat. There's no food being served. So here you are.

[A]

Excuse me. While we're waiting to take off, we're going to go ahead and begin our in flight entertainment, which is the feature film Legend of the Guardians, the Owls of ga', Hool, and some NBC sitcoms that didn't make the schedule.

[B]

Okay, so that's funny and very well written in a very small part.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We'll move on to Law and criminal intent, season 10. You're part of an investigation and you're going through stolen documents.

[A]

I've been through 80% of the stolen documents and I've got nothing incriminating. Just more internal memos, innocuous emails. Keep going. No, don't bother. There's still 8,000 pages.

[B]

Okay, a small part. Everyone who lives in New York has been on at least one episode. Every actor, or would be actor, has been probably in at least one episode of one Law and Order franchise or another. Okay, we move on to Broad City, and in this, you're the owner manager of a coffee shop. The ladies room has been closed for a while. You knock on the door and find one of your employees, played by Alana Glaser, asleep on the toilet, leaning on a large bag of expensive coffee beans. Here we go.

[A]

You are so completely fired. Fine. God. But I'm at least entitled to my one free coffee a day for employees. You made that up. There is no one free coffee a day for employees. You're just a thief.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Did you just call me a queef?

[B]

That's sexual harassment. Get out.

[A]

Go.

[B]

Okay, so point proven. It must have been so frustrating for so many years to have, like, fun parts but really tiny ones like that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like, when I got the job playing that, I was like, oh, no, not another one of these. Because the jobs were so few and far between that. That was a thrill. And if anything, it was like, oh, good, I have a niche and sometimes I can play kind of mean people and I'll get those jobs. I have a friend, and she's like, yeah, this Karen thing is good. For me, I can play a Karen well, and I really identified with that. But it was more during those long periods in between these small jobs when I would think, I know I have more to give. I know I could be someone who could explore rich text and understand people's personalities and convey that. And it wasn't especially frustrating when I would get these tiny roles. It was frustrating that I just in between when I would not get anything bigger, because, honestly, being the guy who enhances the photo on Law and Order was a huge win.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

But I did know I had more to give. And when I turned 40, and I had never played anything like that, I did sort of think, I'll never get to play anything like that. And you feel a little powerless when you're an actor because you can't really make your own things happen. And that's why I started writing my own shows and doing standup. And that's why I love improv so much, is because I could control that. I could make a show happen. But I did want to act in a way that was deeper. And I'm so grateful to Bridget and HBO and all those people that made that show happen that I got to do that, because it was. Even if we had only shot the pilot, it was just. It felt so good to be able to capital A act, and I loved it.

[B]

Before we get to how when you were in school, you were bullied all the time and how horrible it was.

[A]

Nice tease.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Stick around, everyone.

[B]

So let's get to the bullied part.

[A]

Oh, yes. The big payoff for the audience.

[B]

Yes. So in real life, when you were growing up, sounds like you didn't have friends in school, you were bullied in junior high when the bullying was at its worst and the bathroom and the gym showers were like torture chambers for you. Were you bullying yourself for being gay? Like, were you picking on yourself, taking your cue from everybody else who was picking on you?

[A]

Yeah, sure. I definitely did not. I was gonna say I didn't love myself, but I didn't even like myself. I. I did kind of think I deserved it because.

[B]

Deserved to be bullied.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And deserved to be hated because I did sort of think I was bad. Inherently bad because I was gay and because I was, you know, girlish and chubby and, you know, not attractive in the conventional sense. Yeah, I did pick on myself quite a bit. But I have to tell you, I didn't do it nearly as badly as some of the other kids. They really went for it. They got the gold medal. There.

[B]

For you, during those years when you were bullied, church was a safe place and you were very active in it. You went nearly every day. There was youth group and Sunday school, after school tutoring, handbell choir, senior choir, children's choir, where you were the teen assistant. So it was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Describe like the foundation of the church.

[A]

Right. You hear the word evangelical and it sounds pretty right wing. But the ELCA is actually the slightly more progressive arm of the Lutheran Church. There are different factions. And so when I was growing up, that church was really a lot about social justice and being called by God to help people. Not because we are required to help people in order to get into heaven or whatever, we have grace for that, but because we are given this wonderful gift of life from God, it's important to help other people. And so for me, the church was the place that you went if you didn't have food, if you didn't have money to pay your rent, if you didn't have, you know, we had clothing drives and we always sort of had families through this organization that we would help provide with housing and with, you know, just whatever, toiletries, things like that. A lot of people feel that the church is a place that is oppressive and, and othering people. And there are a lot of churches like that and they've sort of co opted the narrative. But for me, the church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved. And it wasn't until I came out that I kind of realized they weren't really into gay people yet, but they.

[B]

Probably knew you were gay just as like the students in your schools knew you were gay.

[A]

Yeah. No one was ever surprised when I came out, but I think. But I didn't realize you couldn't be a pastor and be gay. And that has since changed. The church now does allow openly queer pastors, but at the time you had to be celibate, whereas straight pastors could marry and have kids and things like that. And so for me it was like a surprise that the church was oppressive.

[B]

Yeah. So it must have made it extra confusing when you wanted to be a pastor and you couldn't because it meant you wouldn't be able to act out on your own sexuality because you'd have to be celibate, whereas straight people wouldn't have to be celibate to be a pastor.

[A]

Yeah. And it was also, I mean, I say confusing. It's not like I was completely unaware that gayness wasn't considered bad in the world, but it was more insulting than confusing. It was more like, but I've played all the. I've done it. I've been here, and you've been here with me, and we've been together. And how could you now say I'm not welcome?

[B]

The other thing you loved about church was the pageantry, the singing. That church was like theater for you. And you loved theater. You loved the whole idea of performance.

[A]

And the pastor would stand up there and kind of give a show. It was lovely.

[B]

And did you like being in choir?

[A]

Yes, I did. And I found it. I was inquiring in school in addition to at church, and it was really. That was also sort of a safe place at school. It was like a community, and you all had to blend and come together. And so people were looking for how you could unite. And everyone else in every other class was looking for how they could, you know, hit me or. Or make fun of me or call me names. And the choir was this really unifying, cohesive space.

[B]

Why did you feel called to be a pastor?

[A]

Well, I do like to help people, and I do want to belong to a community. I've since realized I'm probably not the best overt leader, probably more of a follower, But I thought I could help people in that way. And I thought I could be there not only providing sort of logistic help, like with whatever food if you're hungry, but also emotional help, because there is such a tradition of pastors being sort of semi therapists too, when people are having problems. And I thought I could do that well. And then when I realized I couldn't do that, I thought, oh, well, then what makes sense is to go into social work or, you know, direct care, working in a shelter and then public health. And then I realized I'm not really good at that. And so that's why I became an actor and left people, not helping them at all. But I still volunteer.

[B]

So when you left the church, did that leave a big hole in your life and in your identity?

[A]

Well, I say I left the church. I left the want to be an ordained pastor, but I still went to church for many years. It was a hole in my identity to no longer think I was going to be a pastor, because that was sort of my whole Persona was sort of this granola Christian type. And it was confusing. It was harder to admit to myself that I wanted to be an actor and to leave behind social work and then do improv while I, you know, worked at temping at JP Morgan Chase by day and then doing improv shows by night. That was it was a real. Yeah. It was like an identity confusing time to be like, oh, I guess I don't help people anymore. Now I just do silly jokes in this basement of this Gristedi's grocery store.

[B]

My guest is Jeff Hiller. He won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. I spoke with him last August after his memoir, Actress of a Certain Age, was published. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air. This message comes from Carvana, who makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or vin, get.

[A]

A real offer in minutes and have your car picked up from your door. Sell your car the easy way with Carvana. Pickup fee may apply. Hello and happy New Year. It's Michelle Martin from MORNING Edition. Thank you to everyone who donated during our end of year fundraising campaign. 2025 dealt a big blow to NPR and local stations with the loss of federal funding for public media. But we are so heartened by the outpouring of support and we will get through this together. Thank you for keeping NPR strong. Moving end at the to 2026 and beyond. What's in store for the music, TV and film industries for 2026? We don't know, but we're making some fun, bold predictions for the new year.

[B]

Plus setting some personal pop culture resolutions.

[A]

Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in.

[B]

The NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. What got you interested in improv?

[A]

My friend, my best friend Katie had done improv in college, and she said, I want to go to this audition, but I'm afraid to go alone. Will you come with me? And I was like, oh, I could never do improv. I'm so bad at it. But I'll go with you in case this is a cult or whatever. And I went, and I was so good at it. I was good at it right away. And I loved being good at something. And I, I wanted to do nothing but that because I had missed performing so much in the three years I was living in Denver working in social work. And I just loved performing and I loved the immediacy of the laugh from the audience. And especially with improv, you can kind of tailor your show to the audience, which can be that can be bad. You don't want to like, you don't want to just go dirty because you think the audience will scream at being dirty. But it is sort of a conversation about what this particular group of people is interested in. And so I've become really good at being in dialogue with an audience and finding what they like, and then it becomes a part of the improv show. The audience. It's not just the two scene partners doing a scene and finding where to go. It's also the audience too. And I think that's. I still do improv today, even though I don't necessarily have a lot of time for it. But it's just.

[B]

It feeds me on the downside of improv. You say, and this is you speaking, only 1% of improv is funny. That's a pretty terrible track record. So what keeps you in it if you have such a low regard for the results?

[A]

Maybe my percentage is a little bit off, but it's true.

[B]

Okay, double it. It would be 2%.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. You know, it is an imperfect art form. And you know, I also, whenever people are like, I want to come see your improv show, I always say, like, oh, it's okay, don't worry about it. Because there are people who really love improv. And, you know, it's sort of like jazz or something where it's like.

[B]

That's what I was thinking. I was thinking it's sort of like free jazz, which seems like it's probably more fun to play than to listen to now. I mean, in the early days when it was radical and like something brand new, it was exciting. Right, but it's not always so exciting now. But yes, I'm sorry I interrupted you, but you're right.

[A]

All of what you just said is completely true. There are people. Yeah, you know, those jazz heads that still love hearing all of that. And yes, there are people. I think sometimes it is certainly for me, I much prefer performing it than watching it. But sometimes you can watch it and it becomes transcendent in a way that no other art form ever can, because it is happening in the moment. And when you see a group of people all in the same mind and they find these things together, you're not only laughing, you are on the verge of tears. But I say that. And that is the thing that is for sure, less than 1% of happening. It's happened. I've been doing improv for 25 years and it's maybe happened twice, maybe three times. So, yeah, it's an imperfect art form.

[B]

Your improv group is the Upright Citizens Brigade, which was co founded by Amy Poehler. You've taught there, and you've had some students in improv who became very successful. Name some of them.

[A]

Abby Jacobson and Elana Glaser from Broad City. And some people who weren't necessarily my students, but Who I was, you know, peers with or, like, I would coach their improv group, like Aubrey Plaza, Donald Glover, Darcy Cardin, Ellie Kemper. I was on a team with Bobby Moynihan. So, yeah, lots of people.

[B]

What was it like to see your students and your peers becoming more successful than you?

[A]

Yeah, I never was like, they don't deserve it. I truly wasn't like that. It was more like, why can't I get a break? Why all of these people who are from the same place as me are having success, but I'm not now? I was only comparing myself to the people who had success. I wasn't comparing the people who looked at me and thought I was having success because I was on Law and Order that time. But I really kept thinking, it's something I'm doing. I've done something bad. I'm too gay or I'm too ugly or I'm too big because I'm very tall. And so it became. It's funny. It's kind of like that question you asked earlier. Did I bully myself? That's. I think that was me bullying myself. But interestingly, now that I've had this success, I feel a lot of. What's the word? It's not shame. It's confusion at why. I have other friends who are also incredibly talented who haven't had the break that I've had recently, and I'm not sure why. I used to say, why me? And now I keep thinking, why? Why not them? And the truth is, showbiz ain't fair. It's not a meritocracy.

[B]

Well, your improv skills have come in very handy in roles like playing a cockroach for a pest control company. So tell us what that experience was like. Explain that.

[A]

It was me and four other UCB people, and this pest control company had us dress up like cockroaches, and we stood in Union Square and handed out, you know, brochures for this exterminator. That's the word I'm looking for. Exterminator. And we had to pretend that we were having a party in the walls of people's apartment buildings because the idea was that these roaches were having parties. And that's why you needed this exterminator to come in and help you out. And it was only one day. We got free lunch and $500. And so I did it. But it was one of those times where I thought, you know, I have friends who I went to college with who own houses and they have their own washing machine in their house. And I am in Union Square in a cockroach costume, hiding when I see people I know come by.

[B]

On a kind of related note, or perhaps not so much, you've been in a lot of commercials earlier in your career. And in some of them you have one line. There's one commercial where your line is wedges because the woman in it is choosing between espadrilles or wedges and you're going wedges. So how do you audition for what is the audition like for an ad like that?

[A]

Well, it's so funny that you bring up that commercial because I just met the woman who wrote it. She was at a book signing. I just did. And I was like, oh my God. I had to give her a hug. It was so exciting because it really commercials saved me so many times financially and allowing me to get health insurance through sag. Commercial auditions are, they're not like acting auditions. Many auditions, you'll go in and you don't say a word. You just stand there and smile or you, you mime drinking something. It's a different type of acting. And you really have to learn the rules. And I was really good at following rules. And I think a lot of actors are not good at that. And I think that's what makes me a really good guest star too. Cause in a certain way, when you have tiny little roles, you just need to do this one thing so that we can get on with it. We don't need to analyze what the character's thinking. We don't care. We just want you to do the thing.

[B]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Hiller. He won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. His memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[A]

AI Data centers use a lot of electricity and you may be paying for it.

[B]

I think it's almost inevitable that ordinary people are gonna end up subsidiz the wealthiest industry in the world.

[A]

On the latest Planet Money podcast, how data centers might be hijacking your electric bill. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This Message comes from CookUnity stuck in a dinner rut. Let CookUnity handle dinner with chef crafted meals delivered right to your door. Cookunity makes it easy with new menu drops, weekly recommendations and a growing community of award winning chefs. Plus over 400 flavorful meals for every every palate. Shake up your meal routine. Go to cookunity.com mealtime50 or enter code mealtime50 before checkout for 50% off your first week. As we say goodbye to 2025, our reporters are looking back at some of the most memorable international stories they covered in the last year. From a city in Africa emerging from war to resilient Indian turtles, liberated refugees to defiant Austrian nuns. Global favorites from the last year. Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

Now, another thing that you've done is you've auditioned a lot for Broadway shows. You've been in off Broadway shows. You were in one Broadway show, and you sing. And I want to play an example of you singing, because you have a really nice duet with Bridget Everett in Somebody somewhere. And this is from, I think, the first episode where you get her to sing at this basically, like, cabaret that you've created at night in church, when no one is looking, because you have the key, because you're the pianist for the church and everybody has a great time there. And you kind of force her up to the microphone to sing, and you duet with her on the song Don't Give up, which Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush had dueted on. So let's hear that. And we'll pick it up in the middle so we get to you right away.

[A]

No fight left or so it seems I'm a man whose dreams have all deserted I changed my face, I changed my name but no one wants you when you lose don't give up Cause you have friends. Don't give up, you're not me yet don't give up. Somewhere there's a place where we belong. That's your head. You worry too much.

[B]

It'S gonna be all right when times get rough you.

[A]

Can fall back on us. Don't give up Please don't give up Got a walk out of here I can't take anymore.

[B]

That's a really great duet. You both sound so good.

[A]

She sounds so good at the end there, doesn't she?

[B]

She's got a great voice.

[A]

She really does. I know that's sort of like saying, you know, Paris is beautiful. But she does. She has such a great voice. And when I read the pilot and I thought, like, if I get this, I get to sing a duet with Bridget Everett. Cause I was such a fan of hers before. Before the show happened. Cause she's like a downtown star in New York City. So it was a real thrill. I can't believe. Actually, when you were playing it, I was like, I can't believe I got to sing a duet with Richard Everett on television.

[B]

So you have A great story about auditioning for Stephen Sondheim, and I think this would be a good time to tell it.

[A]

Yeah, I did audition for Stephen Sondheim in this planned revival of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, playing a character named Hysterium, which I wouldn't be perfect for it. I don't know why somebody didn't cast me in that role. And I sang my song, and he was so into it, and I was so excited, and everyone was so effusive, and he was just so happy. And then I went home that night, and, you know, like, when you think something big is gonna happen and you, like, are just like, this is my new life. I'm a Stephen Sondheim actor. And so I started watching all of these YouTube videos of interviews of Stephen Sondheim. And in about, like, I don't know, number seven or eight, someone said, do you have to pretend that you're liking a show when you're in the audience watching it? Cause people are watching you watch this show. And he said, oh, God, no. I don't ever do that. But I do have to pretend that every actor who auditions for me is the best thing I've ever heard, or they'd all kill themselves. And I thought, oh, no. Maybe that's what was happening during that period. And, in fact, I did find out I did not get that show. That was like, my third. Yeah, I was. I was. But I'm also. I'm also used to getting the no. And there's something in theater when you get that far along, you get the no. And a lot of times in film and tv, you never even find out if there's a no or a yes. It's just you get kind of ghosted. And so there's something about hearing a no that's like, okay, well, closure, and you just move on.

[B]

You write about having a midlife crisis when you were 40. What was that about?

[A]

Well, I was having this crisis because I was in a financial crunch. I didn't have a lot of money. I had to move from LA back to New York because I hadn't gotten a job on tv. And then the really big thing that I sort of downplay in the book comedically is that my parents were both very, very sick. My mom was dying, and my dad was going through a pretty big health crisis as well. And it just felt like everything was sad. And I was chasing this dream that didn't seem like it was possible to happen, because whoever hears of someone having their big break after 40. And now that I had a break after 40, I've heard of a lot of people. I just didn't do the research properly. But I did feel like I had wasted my life and all I had to show for it was credit card bills and nothing else.

[B]

I want to ask you about your mother because she sounds like such a wonderful person. She died in 2016.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like when you were growing up and you were being bullied, like she knew that you were gay, but she never said anything. And she actually went to a gay pastor and said, you know, what should I do? Should I say something? And he said, no, you have to let your son bring it up. Don't bring it up yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was that the right advice, do you think?

[A]

I do. I really do. I think I would have been defensive if she had said something. And I mean, I had been trying to do it for several months, so maybe that would have been the time to have done it. But I think that pastor was right. I think you can't drag someone out of the closet. You have to let them open the door themselves. And the big takeaway from me was that she had done all of this research, which is so her. I mean, it's funny, but it's also beautiful. And it makes me feel so loved that she had done all of this work to make me feel loved and safe. And I'm so grateful for having her because I don't think I would have survived having my school journey and also not having a safe home. It would have been too much.

[B]

My guest is Jeff Hiller. He won a 2025 Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. His memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

[A]

As you prepare for the ball drop on 2025, listen to NPR Music's All Songs Considered podcast as we look back at the beginning, biggest songs and albums of the year, from the unmissable hits to the fascinating other stuff you might not have heard. Search for All Songs Considered wherever you get podcasts to hear us run back some of the best of the best of 2025. This week on Trump's terms, a special report five years in the making. I've got a president that pardoned all the people that assaulted me January 6th. Why the story isn't over. I get death threats every single day. We're still living in the midst of my trauma. Listen to a Special report on January 6th from NPR's investigations team this week on the Trump's Terms podcast from NPR.

[B]

I want to ask you about a couple of health issues and how they affect you as an actor. Do you mind if I bring it up? Because you talk about it in the book?

[A]

Yeah, that's fine.

[B]

So you have. And this is a mouthful. Frontal fibrosing alopecia.

[A]

I think you nailed it.

[B]

And morphia. Would you describe what they are?

[A]

Sure. Morphia is, as I understand it. I'm not a rheumatologist, but as I understand it, it's when your immune system thinks that the healthy layer of fat underneath your epidermis is bad, and it attacks it and eats it away, and then it causes your skin to scar. And then frontal fibrosing alopecia is. You know, I think we all know what alopecia is. Just hair. But I guess on your frontal lobe, it's like my eyebrows. I have no beard, and I have a large chunk of hair missing on the top of my head from that, so.

[B]

And you have some, like, brown marks.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

On your chest and the scarring. Yeah. So if you're shirtless in a scene, the makeup people really have to go to work.

[A]

Oh, boy. And they don't like it. They don't like it, and I don't blame them. It's a lot of work.

[B]

So how is it affecting both your self image and your career?

[A]

Well, with my career, it's more about. It's things like that with, you know, in the hair and makeup trailer, you really have to go in and be like, I'm really sorry, but I have to put this little piece of hair in my head, or I look strange. And 201 people have been so supportive and kind, and I think it bonds us immediately. But also, sometimes you get cast as the person who takes their shirt off. And whenever an actor has their shirt off, it's either because you want to look at them and be like, wow, they are hot, or it's to be like, oh, my gosh, they're so not hot. And so I think in that sense, they want to just see you sort of be jiggly. They don't want to be like, wait, what are those things? You know? So I think it's hurt in that sense, but it's also like, do I really want those roles where I'm like. Like, I may jiggle? Probably not. So in that sense, I guess there's definitely been more than one commercial where I was not cast. And because you had to take your shirt off in the audition, and I could tell them that, they were like, huh, what is that? But then, self image wise, it's just one more reason that I'm uncomfortable. One more reason that when I go to the beach, I'm like, oh, God, not gonna explain this to people, that sort of a thing. And then you hope you don't go in the beach and your fake hair flows away in the ocean.

[B]

Right. So I have to ask you about the COVID of your book.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And the book is called Actress of a Certain Age. And you're pictured on it wearing your regular glasses, but over your head you're wearing, like, a headscarf. Not like an Islamic headscarf, but just like the kind of headscarf that women wore a lot in, like, 1950s movies.

[A]

Right, when they had to ride in a convertible.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And I'll reference in particular here Imitation of Life with Lana Turner. I remember her wearing a lot of scarves like this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And yours is like. I have to say, it's not an attractive scarf, if you don't mind me saying that.

[A]

It's like, Terry, that was original Hermes, I believe.

[B]

Oh, really? Because it's like magenta and black in this, like, I don't know, loud pattern. But anyways, what were you trying to conjure? Was it like 1950s movies?

[A]

I was trying to find a photo that looked, you know, the book is called Actress of a Certain Age. And I wanted something that looked glamorous but also winky and campy. And I thought this. This picture fit the bill.

[B]

So I have one last question for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So this is gonna make both of us uncomfortable.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love this preface.

[B]

Okay, so on page 62 of your book, you write, once I was a guest on a podcast where the host tried to do that serious NPR intro voice that Terry Gross does on Fresh Air. And the host said, my guest, Jeff Hiller is on a new show on HBO called Somebody Out There. Jeff, I loved Somebody Out There. I loved everything about Somebody Out There. And of course, the show is called Somebody Somewhere, not Somebody Out There. But I want to get to the. The serious NPR intro voice. Since you not only do improv, but you've taught improv, how can I make my intros sound less serious?

[A]

Oh, don't you dare. Don't you dare. It's part of the joy of listening to it. I would never want you to change it. No, you do that. Wonderful. You did it today. And I got goosebumps where you said, this is Fresh Air. It's like a little slide. We go down. I hope I'm not making you self conscious. Oh, you're too far in. You're already know your brand. But I love it. I would never want you to do it. And that's why this podcaster was doing it, because they wanted to emulate you. They wanted to be the best.

[B]

Oh, thank you so much. This was so much fun to do. Thank you so much for coming.

[A]

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[B]

Jeff hiller received a 2025 Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. We spoke in August after the publication of his memoir, Actress of a Certain Age. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you missed in our end of the year holiday series featuring a few of our favorite interviews from 2025, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfresh. Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. He'll be retiring soon. Our managing producer and book interview producer Sam Brigger has been promoted to an executive producer. Danny will be staying on a while longer to help with the transition. I'll have more to say about each of them at a later date. Anna Bauman is now taking over as book interviewer producer. Congratulations to Sam and Anna. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Nico Gonzalez. With our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. Happy new year.

[A]

NPR's podcast Trump's terms is your source for same day updates on big news about the Trump administration. Short, focused episodes, one topic at a time, about five minutes or so. We carry out reporting from across all of NPR's coverage so you are always getting the biggest, most urgent stories. Listen to Trump's Terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.