Leslie Uggams Looks Back On Her Decades In Show Business

Summary

Fresh Air: Leslie Uggams Looks Back On Her Decades In Show Business

Hosted by Terry Gross | Released July 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Fresh Air, Terry Gross sits down with the legendary Leslie Uggams, an accomplished singer and actor whose career has spanned over seven decades. From her early beginnings as a child performer to her current roles at the age of 82, Uggams shares intimate stories, reflections, and insights into the evolving landscape of show business.

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A Remarkable Journey: From Child Prodigy to Iconic Performer

Leslie Uggams began her performing career at the tender age of six, a fact that has long been admired. Today, at 82, she remains a vibrant presence in the entertainment industry, showcasing her versatility in roles ranging from HBO's The Gilded Age to the Deadpool films as Blind Al. Reflecting on her enduring career, Uggams states, “I never think about being remarkable. I just think, what's my next gig? I mean, that's how I've always been” (01:50).

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Early Career and Influences: The Apollo and Beyond

Uggams reminisces about her formative years performing at the Apollo Theater, where she rubbed shoulders with legends like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. Her debut at the Apollo was a significant milestone, sharing the stage with Armstrong, from whom she learned the profound connection between artist and audience. “I figured out that you have the audience when they're sitting in their seats, and all of a sudden they start moving forward because they're so captured by what you're doing,” she explains (13:30).

Her time on Sing Along with Mitch further propelled her career, earning her a wide audience and establishing her as a household name. Despite the demanding schedule, Uggams’ passion for performing never waned, leading her to explore various facets of entertainment.

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Television and Variety Shows: Breaking Barriers

In 1969, Leslie Uggams became the first black woman to host her own TV variety show, The Leslie Uggams Show. This groundbreaking achievement broke racial barriers on television, although it faced initial resistance, especially in the Southern United States, where some stations refused to carry the show due to her presence. “We became such a hit that the south decided, oh, you know, maybe we will have the show on the air. And some of my best fan mail was from the South,” Uggams recounts (34:06).

Her choice to feature Sly and the Family Stone as her first guest exemplifies her commitment to showcasing black artists and contemporary music, further cementing her role as a trailblazer in the industry.

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Broadway Success: Hallelujah Baby and Tony Triumph

One of Uggams' most significant achievements came with her starring role in the 1967 Broadway musical Hallelujah Baby. The show, which explores the struggle for civil rights, earned her a Tony Award for Best Actress in a Musical and the production won Best Musical. Reflecting on this period, Uggams shares, “I became a Broadway star. I wound up winning a Tony Award for it. So it changed my life as far as theater was concerned” (36:27).

Her collaboration with esteemed composers like Julie Stein and influential figures such as Arthur Laurents enriched her Broadway experience, highlighting her exceptional talent and dedication.

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Personal Reflections and Family: Navigating Dual Worlds

Uggams delves into her personal life, discussing the balance between her thriving career and family responsibilities. Her father initially hoped she would pursue higher education, reflecting his preference for stability over the uncertainties of show business. However, her success on television eventually earned her father's support: “It was until I did sing along with Mitch that he went, oh, well, I guess she might be having a career in show business” (12:18).

Her upbringing in a musically rich environment, influenced by her mother, a former dancer at the Cotton Club, and her aunt Eloise Uggams, a celebrated Broadway singer, provided a strong foundation for her illustrious career.

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Challenges and Interracial Marriage: Love in Adversity

Leslie Uggams shares candid stories about her interracial marriage in the 1960s, a time when such unions faced significant societal challenges. She recounts an incident while attending Martin Luther King Jr.'s funeral, where hotel staff confronted her and her Australian husband about their interracial relationship, reflecting the prevailing prejudices of the era. “When Martin Luther King died, we went down for the funeral... I was shocked later on when I found out why she was in such a panic” (43:31).

Despite these hurdles, Uggams emphasizes resilience and the importance of love overcoming societal norms. Her marriage was more readily accepted because her husband was Australian, an outsider to the American racial dynamics, which inadvertently made their relationship more socially permissible at the time.

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Playing Kizzie in Roots: A Deep Connection to Heritage

Uggams discusses her portrayal of Kizzie in the iconic miniseries Roots, drawing parallels between her character's experiences and her own family history. She reflects on the pain of being torn away from family, a reality that resonates deeply with her personal background. “You don't have any say so in anything... to be torn away from your family is quite something” (07:03).

This role allowed her to explore complex emotions and historical contexts, further showcasing her depth as an actress.

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Legacy and Modern Reflections: DEI and the Arts

Towards the end of the interview, Uggams expresses concern over contemporary political climates, particularly the Trump administration’s attempts to dismantle Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives. “I just don't get it,” she remarks, highlighting the critical role of diversity in the arts and its universal language that bridges cultural and societal gaps (45:10).

Her enduring commitment to the arts as a unifying force underscores her advocacy for continued diversity and representation in all creative fields.

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Conclusion

Leslie Uggams' conversation on Fresh Air offers a profound glimpse into the life of a performer who has not only witnessed but also shaped the landscape of American entertainment. Her stories of early triumphs, navigating racial barriers, and maintaining artistic integrity provide valuable insights into the resilience and passion that define her remarkable career.

As she continues to inspire future generations with her work, Leslie Uggams remains a testament to the enduring power of art and the importance of staying true to one's creative spirit.

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Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I am Terry Gross. My guest, Leslie Uggams was first considered remarkable for starting her performing career when she was 6. Now she's considered remarkable as one of the actors still active at the age of 82. She's in an episode of the new season of HBO's the Gilded Age. She's played Blind Al in the Deadpool films. In The Oscar winning 2023 film American Fiction, she played the mother whose dementia progresses through the film. In the series Empire, she was the mother of the main character, Lucius Lyon, going back to the beginning, when she was 6. She was featured in a 1950 episode of Beulah, the ABC series starring Ethel Water as a wise maid in the home of a white family. Uggams played Beulah's niece. Soon after, Uggams started singing at the Apollo, where she met luminaries like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. She became a regular on the CBS music variety show Sing along with Mitch. In 1967, she starred in the Broadway civil rights musical Hallelujah Baby. She won a Tony and the show won one for best musical. Another achievement. She was the first black woman and the second black person after Nat Cole to host her own TV variety show. Leslie Uggams, welcome to FRESH air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

[Leslie Uggams]

Thank you. Good to be here.

[Terry Gross]

So what is it like for you now, being remarkable for performing professionally at such a young age when you were six and now being remarkable because you're in so many things at the age of 82.

[Leslie Uggams]

What's weird about it for me is I never think about that. I just think, what's my next gig? I mean, that's how I've always been. And then I realize when I run into so many different people and they go, oh, you're such an icon. And I go, I guess I am. I've been doing this a long time. But I always think in terms of I'm working, baby, I'm happy.

[Terry Gross]

That's a good attitude. I have to say, in Deadpool, it is so surprising to hear you use explosives and synonyms for cocaine. How did they think of you for that? What made them think Leslie Uggams will be perfect for this?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, the funniest thing about it is that I happen to be in Florida doing Mame. And my agent called me and said, I have an audition for you for a movie. So I got the script and I read it and I didn't understand what the heck was going all going on. All I knew is that she kept falling a lot.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, you didn't know she was blind?

[Leslie Uggams]

Had no idea. I mean, when you do these kind of superhero kind of things, everything's encrypted because it's all so hush hush that you don't know until the last minute yourself what the heck is going on. And so I had to figure it all out myself. Luckily I figured it right because when I finished filming the first one, Ryan came to me, he said, oh, I just love you. He said, and you had such energy when you did the audition. And I thought to myself, I had no idea what I was doing.

[Terry Gross]

Did it feel good to use a lot of expletives?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, you know, it's a character, it's not me. I'm not a toilet mouth kind of person.

[Terry Gross]

I haven't heard that expression in a long time. Toilet mouth.

[Leslie Uggams]

So, I mean, it's the character. And of course she has a lot to cuss about because she can't say anything, you know, and she's kind of ticked off about the whole thing. But I think what really got me to part is my interview with the director, the first director, Tim Miller, who we sat down and we talked and everything. And he was asking me about my background. And in talking to him, I said a word and he looked at me, said, oh, I love the way you say that word. And the next thing I know I was doing a screen test and the next thing I know I was in the movie.

[Terry Gross]

So you're about to be in the Gilded Age in episode seven?

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And this is the HBO series about the culture clash between people with old money and people with new money and where prosperous black people fit in or don't fit in into that culture. Can you tell us something about your character or is that hush hush?

[Leslie Uggams]

She is a busybody. She likes to stir the pot, which she does.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Do you know what was happening in your family during the period the Gilded Age is set, which is the late 1800s?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, I know from my grandmother on my mother's side, her mother, there were 10 children. They were all fathered by the plantation owner. The plantation owner built a house on his property for the 10 children, which my grandmother was one of them. And they were highly educated. They looked like white people. And they all were doctors, dentists, teachers, principals. And when my Grandmother used to visit me and my mother and father. Nobody in my neighborhood realized that I was walking with my grandmother because she looked like a white woman. So it was. What I love about the new storyline is that there was the dark skinned situation and then there was the high yallow that they would call them when my mother was a kid situation. And they're addressing that in Gilded Age, which is wonderful because there is. The storyline is right on the mark when it comes to who came from slaves, who was highly educated and had mixed blood. So it's a good season. It's a good season.

[Terry Gross]

So you must have really related when you played Kizzie in Roots, because when she is sold to a different plantation owner played by Chuck Honors, he comes into her cabin frequently and rapes her. And her son is his son. So did you already know about your family history when you played that role?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, you know, it's very interesting. They didn't talk about a lot. They talked about the stuff that they.

[Terry Gross]

Had, they being your family.

[Leslie Uggams]

The family. Yeah. But they never talked about those situations of being raped or anything like that because they were educated on the plantation. You know, they had teachers and stuff to teach them there. So they didn't have that. But I could relate to what was going on in that story very much because you don't have any say so in anything. And first of all, to be torn away from your family is quite something. You know, I find it hard today when I see what's going on here in our beautiful America, and all of a sudden you've got people being torn away from their family, the pain of that. All I can say that when I played that part, it was very easy to play that scene because you thought, well, she's got Missy, that's her best friend, Missy, who was breaking the rules and taught her how to read. And then because she taught how to read, she helps the boyfriend on the plantation get this pass and then he gets caught, and then everything comes out, but she's going to protect me.

[Terry Gross]

And.

[Leslie Uggams]

And I found out not only was she not going to protect me, she was ticked off because I did this. And so to punish me, she just said to her uncle, go ahead, let her go.

[Terry Gross]

She was a white girl who you thought of, you know, Kizzy thought of as her best friend.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

But she was from the slave holder's family and wanted, when she returns to the plantation, she wants Kizzy to be her personal slave. And how wonderful it'll be for, you know, for Kizzy to be her. Yeah. To Be her personal slave and move away from her family to this other plantation. Yeah. So you've said that if you knew about that scene when you accepted the role, you might not have taken it. Because playing that scene where you're taken away by the new plantation owner. That it was. Yeah, that it was so horrible. Talk about why it had such an impact on you that you wouldn't have even taken the role.

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, because. Well, first of all, thank God I knew Sandy Duncan. We had been friends before, because otherwise I never would have spoken to her again.

[Terry Gross]

Sandy Duncan played the Missy white girl who wanted to have you as her personal slave.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes, yes. And I remember when we finished the scene, there was such a hush. I was still hysterical from it and everything.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Cause you had to be hysterical when they were taking your character away. Yeah.

[Leslie Uggams]

And what happened was nobody wanted to talk because they were just horrified. And they kind of looked at her with different eyes. And she'll tell you she's sorry that she only did that part because that scene was just horrifying. And she turned.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, she's watching you and doesn't intervene at all.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yeah, she's looking out the window and just watching the whole thing. It was tough. Thank God I didn't have to shoot anymore for the rest of the day because I wouldn't have been able to. I came home and my husband looked at me and said, okay, you've had a rough day. And I had a glass of wine and got in the bathtub and just tried to get my thoughts together. And then later on, I called my mother and said, how could this happen? You know, Had a conversation with her and she said, that's the way things were back in Grandma's day. And we talked about it, but it was rough.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so you had a remarkable childhood. Let's start with your aunt Eloise Ugham. She was a dancer at the Cotton Club.

[Leslie Uggams]

No, no, no, no. My mother was a dancer at the Cotton Club.

[Terry Gross]

Your mother was a dancer at the Cotton Club? Yes.

[Leslie Uggams]

She didn't last long. Cause she said they didn't pay enough money. And she wasn't Lena Horne.

[Terry Gross]

Ah, well, yes. Only Lena Horne was Lena Horne. Yes.

[Leslie Uggams]

And my Aunt Eloise, though, was a wonderful, beautiful singer on Broadway. She did shows like St. Louis Woman with Pearl Bailey, and she was in Poggy and Bess. And she traveled all over the world doing Porgy and Bess. She was also in the uso. She did a lot of things, but she was the one that introduced me to a lot of classical music when.

[Terry Gross]

I was a kid, so, like, having a career as a performer was something that was within reach because you'd seen it in your own family, kind of sorta.

[Leslie Uggams]

My father was not thrilled about show business, even though his sister, you know, had been Broadway shows. He just thought, you know, they're kind of loose women. My aunt never married, so he was kind of like, okay, well, she can sing. It wasn't really until I did sing along with Mitch that he went, oh, well, I guess she might be having a career in show business. Because up until then, his thing was he wanted me to go to college and get an education.

[Terry Gross]

Which you did. You went to Juilliard?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, I went to Juilliard for a short period of time because then I got famous because of Sing Along With Mitch. And then the schedule got too crazy for me to do it full time.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so before we get to performing on television, let's get to the Apollo Theater.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

So you started singing there?

[Leslie Uggams]

Nine years old. I was nine.

[Terry Gross]

Nine years old. Okay. Okay. So was this a talent competition or were you just like a featured performer?

[Leslie Uggams]

No, what happened was the Schiffmans, who ran the Apollo Theater, had a radio show, and it was a contest, and they would have a celebrity introduce a young talent. And there was a woman named Thelma Carpenter. She introduced me on the radio show, and it was a contest and I kept winning every week. And it really got to the point where they could not get rid of me. So the Schiffmans decided to do an act, pay for an act for me and for me to play the Apollo. So they paid for everything. I did a 20 minute act and made my debut at the Apollo Theater with the great Louis Armstrong.

[Terry Gross]

What a gift.

[Leslie Uggams]

Hello.

[Terry Gross]

What did you pick up from Armstrong about singing? He had such a perfect sense of rhythm.

[Leslie Uggams]

Oh, I loved him. I watched every single performance. I had a little nook on the stage of the Apollo where I could watch everything. And I would watch him every single show. First of all, he was so loved. He had that kind of warmth that when you sat in the audience, you could feel it from him. He had fabulous musicians when we played at the Apollo. And I was always curious about what makes the magic happen between the artist and the audience. And I figured out that, you know, that you have the audience when they're sitting in their seats, and all of a sudden they start moving forward without them realizing that they are moving forward because they're so captured by what you're doing and into what you're doing. And so I learn a lot from Him.

[Terry Gross]

But, you know, I mentioned Armstrong's sense of rhythm. His sense of rhythm was always surprising. Like he would hold notes you wouldn't expect.

[Leslie Uggams]

And, well, musicians, you know, they were.

[Terry Gross]

So behind the beat. It was like the most relaxed rhythm and it influenced everybody.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yeah, he had that. And then the next person I worked with was Ella Fitzgerald. And boy, was that another gift, you know? And I watched her shows, every single show. And she'd just walk out there and open her mouth and you'd go crazy. And she was very quiet when we were backstage. In fact, I worked with her, it was during the summertime. And I used to play hopscotch in front of the stage door. And she'd take a chair and she'd sit out there with my mother and they'd watch me play hopscotch. And then the good would come, Good Humor truck would come and she'd buy me ice cream because she thought I was too skinny. She was always trying to fatten me up.

[Terry Gross]

What was in your repertoire at the time when you were nine?

[Leslie Uggams]

I remember I opened with a song called when youn're Smiling. I think my second song was exactly like youe Pennies From Heaven, which I also did a soft shoe because I was a tap dancer as well. And then I had a segment where I did impressions very badly, but I got through it because I was nine and cute.

[Terry Gross]

Who did you do impressions of?

[Leslie Uggams]

And Ted Williams. Oh, God, Johnny Ray. I forgot who was the third one. But Johnny Ray had a big hit, Crying in the Chapel.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I remember that.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yeah, so I did that. And it was about 20 minute show. And I was adorable, but I could sing.

[Terry Gross]

I'm sure you were. In 2012 you released an album called Uptown Downtown. And it was songs that you did in a one woman show. I think it was probably performed in cabarets.

[Leslie Uggams]

It was done at some theaters, regional theaters. In fact, I started it in at the Pasadena Playhouse.

[Terry Gross]

So I want to play a song from that. And this is Them Their Eyes. But these are songs that have personal meaning to you. So tell us about the meaning of this song before we hear it.

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, basically the Schiffmans kind of picked the material and they loved the song Them Their Eyes. And I took to it and.

[Terry Gross]

It.

[Leslie Uggams]

Was in that repertoire that I did the first time I was at the Apollo.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear Them Their Eyes, recorded by my guest, Leslie Uggams in 2012.

[Unknown]

I was just minding my business. Life was a beautiful song. I didn't have a care, no worry. Then you had to come along I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them there I eyes. You've got a certain little cute way of flirting with them. Their eyes. You make me feel happy. You make me blue. No stalling. I'm falling, fallen in a great big way for you. My heart is jumping. You sure started something with them, their eyes.

[Terry Gross]

That was Leslie ugams, recorded in 2012 from her album Uptown Downtown. If you're just joining us, my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggams. She'll soon be in episode six seven of the Gilded Age. If you want to see her latest thing, we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.

[Unknown]

I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them. Their eyes. You've got a certain little quick way of flirting with them. Their eyes. You make me feel so happy. You make me feel so blue. No stalling. I'm falling, falling in a great big way for you. My heart is jumping. You just started something with been there I you better watch them up if you're wise. Ooh, those big brown eyes. They sparkle, they blow. They're gonna get you in a whole lot of trouble. You're overworking all. There's danger lurking in there, there.

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[Terry Gross]

Hi, this is Molly Sievi Nesper, digital producer at Fresh air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week. An exclusive. So [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So I want to talk with you about Beulah, which starred Ethel Waters as a very wise, like super competent maid and cook in the home of a white family.

[Leslie Uggams]

The Hendersons.

[Terry Gross]

Yes, and I love Ethel Waters Jazz recordings from the 30s and in Beulah. You know, you can see episodes of Beulah on the Internet now. And it's kind of fascinating as a piece of history. And I have to say, Ethel Waters carries herself with such dignity. And I imagine she was that way in real life. And I'm wondering what you learned from working with her and talking with her.

[Leslie Uggams]

She was extraordinary. And she really took a liking to my mother and I. And whenever she would do what they call a soiree, a private musical night, she would invite my mother and I, and we would always go. And I learned so much just watching her. But when I did her show, they wanted my hair to be in pickaninny braids. And Ethel Waters said, you see how her hair is the way her mother has her hair done now. That's what she's wearing. She's not wearing any pickaninny braids, you know, because that was really slave kind of look. And she stood up right away for me in that particular episode. But she was wonderful, and she thought I had talent.

[Terry Gross]

It sounds like your family was, you know, had performers and teachers and, you know, other professionals. Did anyone in your family, as far as, you know, ever either work as a maid or employ a maid in their home?

[Leslie Uggams]

My mother kind of worked, as she wasn't a maid for every day. But there was a psychiatrist that lived not far from our neighborhood, and she would go there. I remember she took me there a couple of times while she cleaned their apartment. But basically, my mother was a waitress. That's what she did. And then when I started doing stuff on TV and getting more famous, my father said, I want you to be with her all the time. So he made her quit her job. And my father took on a third job. And he worked three jobs so that my mother could stay home and watch over his little Leslie.

[Terry Gross]

When you had your variety show, the Leslie Uggam show, there was a recurring sketch that I think was called the.

[Leslie Uggams]

Sugar Hill the Folks.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And you grew up in the Sugar Hill neighborhood of Harlem. The Sugar Hill sketch was about when was set in Sugar Hill, when it was no longer representative of prosperity in Harlem. And like, you know, you have trouble paying the rent, and suddenly you have a black landlord, which is really kind of baffling because you're so surprised that a landlord would be black. So when you were growing up in Sugar Hill, what was the neighborhood like?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, I was on the fringe of Sugar Hill. Cause Sugar Hill really kind of stops at, like, 155th, 158th Street. I lived 164th street, which is more Washington Heights. So where I lived, it was predominantly a black neighborhood. And then later on it became more Puerto Rican. So the area went through a lot of different changes. But, you know, it was a great neighborhood. A lot of hard working families lived in the neighborhood. You know, nine to five people that doing the jobs that they could do. Also a lot of stay at home moms as well. It was an interesting neighborhood because around the corner for me, Frankie Lymon, who became Frankie Lymon in the Teenagers. So there was a lot of music. A lot of us would stay outside our buildings and just sing. We had one neighbor, she didn't appreciate it, and she'd get a pot of water and pour out the window to stop us from singing.

[Terry Gross]

Did you sing with Frankie Lymon?

[Leslie Uggams]

Frankie Lymon, Listen. We used to hang out 165th street and we'd all sing. Lot of music in my neighborhood. Always a lot of music.

[Terry Gross]

Frankie Lyman was like this teenage star who had like a falsetto voice, beautiful voice. He influenced a lot of women singers and he had the big hit why Do Fools Fall in Love why do.

[Leslie Uggams]

Fools fall in love.

[Terry Gross]

So, you know, I'm wondering if, like, class was really confusing to you when you were young, because on the one hand, you know, you have relatives. Your aunt was, you know, in show business, had a very successful career. There were professionals in your family, you know, like doctors and teachers, as we've said. Was economic class confusing to you since you traveled through two different worlds?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, it wasn't confusing. I just realized that, hmm, some people were living a better life. And this was my goal, to live a better life. One of my best friends at school, at PCs, we used to hang out all the time. And she lived on Central park west in this building where the elevator opened up into her living room. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I think I would like something like this. And I didn't see any cockroaches as well. And I'm like, this is the life. How do I get to have this?

[Terry Gross]

Were you plagued by cockroaches?

[Leslie Uggams]

Oh, God, yes. Are you kidding? They were pets. It was their apartment. We only lived there. But I mean, so I didn't move out of my neighborhood TILL I was 18. And that was because of Sing Along With Mitch. And I got popular and we could afford to move. And that changed my life as far as, oh, wow, this is great. I like living like this. But up till then, you know, we lived, walked up three flights of steps, and there was no elevator and there was no air conditioning. You opened the window when you wanted air. If you're lucky, you had screens. And so, yes, I was very aware of the different life I was living. But I'll have to tell you a funny story. In the school was also Mary Martin's daughter, Hella Hella Holiday. And she and I became best friends. And she had this chaperone that was always with her, and we got to be very close. And so I had been invited to her place. Her parents lived, stayed at one of the hotels, very big hotels in New York at the time, because Mary Martin was always doing a musical on Broadway. And so I invited her up to my place. And so they came up to my area, hung out with us. Of course, every kid in my neighborhood all of a sudden was out there on the sidewalk seeing this white girl with a chaperone hanging out with me. And she had the best time ever because there was a park right across the street from where I lived. So we hung out in the park and we had a wonderful day. And I look back and I think, see, I was proud of where I was living, no matter what it was home. And she enjoyed that.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's take another break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggams. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

So let's get to Name that Tune. And that was a quiz show in the 60s where they'd play a few notes of a song, and the competition was about being the first person to Recognize the tune.

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, basically, you had a person that was on the show as a contestant. And then if they went to a certain position in this quiz show, then the following week was going to be the big thing happening, moving towards the $25,000. So at home they say, send in seven songs and you may be picked. Well, ironically, my seven songs were picked. And I was sitting there watching the show. Because we used to watch it whenever it was on. And I went, oh, my goodness. I got so excited about it that I ran out of the house because I was going, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. And so they contacted me. And then I became partners with an Italian kosher butcher named Simon. And he. He answered the seven songs. That's how I became his partner. And from then on, we started going for the big money. But that's how I got on Name that Tune. And they asked me. George DeWitt was the host. And he said, what do you like to do? And I said, I like to sing. And he said, what do you like to sing? And at the time, I loved singing. He's Got the Whole World in His Hands and he said, so sing. And I sang Acapello Whole World in His Hands and then we did the contest, and Simon and I answered the songs. Well, they got so much mail from that that from then on they'd have me sing every time before I did the contest. And Mitch Miller happened to be watching one night. Because I sang the Lord's Prayer. And Mitch tuned in. Cause he had been hearing about this young girl. And he got in contact with us and said he wanted me to come down to the studio and do some demonstration records. So he wanted to hear how I sounded on a record. And we went down and he liked what he heard. And he signed me to Columbia Records. And he had not sold Sing along with Mitch yet. He was still trying to sell it.

[Terry Gross]

That was such a strange show. I mean, Mitch Miller Follow the Bouncing Ball. Yeah. There were lyrics at the bottom of the screen and Follow the Bouncing Ball so you could sing along with Mitch. And it was one of the most, if I may say, squarest shows.

[Leslie Uggams]

But you know what's interesting about that is because Mitch Miller was not square. I mean, he did many jazz albums. He played.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. He did Charlie Parker with Strange.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes. I mean. But he knew he had a sense of what was right for television. And it turned out to be exactly what he thought it was going to be. But that was. It was a family show, and people loved it. I've had people Come up to me. I used to watch it with my parents and stuff like that. So he had that sense of what was right.

[Terry Gross]

Stations in the south didn't want to carry the show because you were on it. They didn't want to carry a show with a black performer on it.

[Leslie Uggams]

Right.

[Terry Gross]

And I've heard you say that Lena Horne, when she was on tv, they'd sometimes, like, put her separately so that she could be cut out.

[Leslie Uggams]

No, that was in movies.

[Terry Gross]

That was in movies.

[Leslie Uggams]

In movies. Her movies. When it played the south, they cut her section out. That's why, if you notice, in a lot of the musicals, she's isolated from anybody else, so that they were able to cut that out. So when we went on the air and we started getting popular, the south refused to take the show because I was on it, which, at the time, Mitch kept for me. I had no idea. And they just refused to do the show. And the sponsors were kind of trying to get him to get rid of me or isolate me, anything, because they wanted to sell their products. I believe we had. What was Rango Beer or something. We had those different sponsors. And Mitch kept saying, no, she's part of the family. She's not going anywhere. Well, we became such a hit that the south decided, oh, you know, maybe we will have the show on the air. And some of my best fan mail was from the South.

[Terry Gross]

Mm, that's good. Showed them.

[Leslie Uggams]

Showed what they were missing.

[Terry Gross]

Let me ask you about Hallelujah, Baby. It opened on Broadway in 1967 with Music by Julie Stein and lyrics by Comden and Green. Won a Tony for best musical. This is about the struggle for civil rights. Not many musicals on Broadway revolving around black characters. In 1967, what impact did the show have on your life?

[Leslie Uggams]

Well, I mean, in the theater world, I became a Broadway star. I wound up winning a Tony Award for it. So it changed my life as far theater was concerned. The music alone, to this day, is still relevant. I mean, you sing the song, it's like it was written yesterday. It was thrilling, when I look back, to be working with giants of the theater, because they were giants. But I never let it faze me. And I look back, I thought, how did I not let it happen? That it made me crazy. But I loved every minute of it. I loved Julie Stein. You know, he. The song. I'd sit by him on the piano, and he'd teach me the songs. And then Conden and Green, and it was magic time. And, of course, Arthur. Most people who know Arthur. Arthur was kind of like a curmudgeon. He was never really happy about anything. And he was kind of like, hmm, you know, he had Lena in his head for the role. So years later he said to me, you know, you can sing.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And Arthur Lawrence also wrote the book for west side Story.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And Gypsy, as you mentioned.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes. One of the great musicals, Gypsy.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So I'm gonna play, if it's okay with you, my favorite song from Hallelujah, Baby, and that's Talking to Yourself.

[Leslie Uggams]

Ah, yes.

[Terry Gross]

You sound beautiful on this. And I love the the arrangement behind you. So let's hear it. And we're going to hear your part.

[Unknown]

Talking to yourself. Don't stand here talking to yourself. The one you love is standing there so don't delay it, say it. Tell him how you miss his voice, his angry moods, his sudden smile.

[Leslie Uggams]

How.

[Unknown]

You'Ve been lonely all the while and tired of talking to yourself. Talking to yourself. Is he lonely, too? Just acting proud the same as you. Has he been wondering if you care? Don't let him die. Shout it, shout it. Yes, it's time you spoke. Don't let your chance go up in smoke. Just take one plunge and go for.

[Leslie Uggams]

Bro.

[Unknown]

I'll wind up by yourself. Now it's lonely talking to yourself.

[Leslie Uggams]

I love that song.

[Terry Gross]

Me, too. Me, too. And that's Leslie Ugams from the original cast recording of Hallelujah, Baby. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[Unknown]

This summer on Planet Money Summer School, we're learning about political economy. We're getting into the nitty gritty of what government does with things like trade, taxes, immigration and healthcare.

[Terry Gross]

So politics and economics, which are taught separately, they shouldn't be separated at all.

[Leslie Uggams]

I think you have to understand one to really appreciate the other.

[Unknown]

So what is the right amount of government in our lives? Tune into Planet Money summer school from NPR, wherever you get your podcasts.

This message comes from stamps.com how much is an hour of your time worth? Whether you're a Realtor, lawyer, accountant or even a content creator, Stamps.com gives you the ability to focus your time on what you do best, not on tedious mailing and shipping tasks. Print stamps, shipping labels or certified mail forms in seconds. More than 4 million customers have relied on stamps.com go to stamps.com NPR for a special offer. No contract, cancel anytime. That's stamps.com NPR.

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[Terry Gross]

So moving on in your career, you had a variety show, the Leslie Ugham show, starting in 1969, and your show replaced the Smothers Brothers Show. The Smothers Brothers show was canceled because of how controversial it was. Pete Seeger sang an anti Vietnam war song on it, and there's a lot of, like, you know, counterculture comedy on it, and the network didn't. Was not ready for that. So your show comes along, and I think it's like your opening episode. Your guest star is Sly and the Family Stone.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes, I maneuvered that.

[Terry Gross]

That was you who.

[Leslie Uggams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. CBS didn't know what hit them.

[Terry Gross]

I can imagine. Why did you choose Sly?

[Leslie Uggams]

Because I was a big fan of Sly and the Family Stone. My husband and I had seen them in Vegas when I was playing at one of the hotels down there, and we went to a place after the show to go dancing, and there was Sly in the Family Stone. And we went, whoa, they're fabulous. And then shortly after that, they had, you know, start having hit records. And so they were, like, at the top of my list because that was the music that was happening, and it was black artists who were doing it, and it was called the Leslie Uggams Show. So we're gonna have some black people on the show besides just me. We became successful more than they thought it was going to be, but they had no plans for me to stay having this show. But we had 10 weeks of great, great times. Great, great times.

[Terry Gross]

What year did you get married?

[Leslie Uggams]

1965.

[Terry Gross]

Your husband is from Australia?

[Leslie Uggams]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

He's white in 65, I think. I think. Tell me if I'm right here. Was interracial marriage in parts of the south still illegal then?

[Leslie Uggams]

Oh, yes. I have to tell you a funny story. Ha ha ha. When Martin Luther King died, we went down for the funeral, and we were there with a family friend that had worked with my aunt many years ago at that time, and she invited us to come down, fly down with her, and we did. And then we checked into the hotel, and Grandma and I are in the room unpacking the things, and all of a sudden there's a loud knock on the door, and we go, what the heck? We opened the door, and she goes, what are you doing? What are you doing? We said, well, we're about to unpack. She said, you're not you can't be in this room together. And we're going. What my husband said, that's my wife at night. We're not going anywhere. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even realize that that was a law then, so I was not thinking about anything. This is my husband, and this is how we are, and that's it. I was shocked later on when I found out why she was in such a panic, but we didn't change anything.

[Terry Gross]

Were there other problems you ran into as an interracial couple back then?

[Leslie Uggams]

Basically, people accepted my marriage because my husband wasn't American because he was Australian.

[Terry Gross]

Why did that make a difference?

[Leslie Uggams]

I figured that there's something about then American white man. It's closer to, like, feeling like he's a slave master. You know what I'm saying?

[Terry Gross]

Mm. So he's not a part of the American drama about race and slavery. So it's maybe a little better because he's an outsider.

[Leslie Uggams]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Because you had so many breakthroughs in your career, I'm wondering what your reaction is now to the Trump administration trying to basically do away with all DEI initiatives that they possibly can.

[Leslie Uggams]

I'm not happy. I'm not happy. I'm shocked, quite frankly. I've seen a lot of things in my lifetime, but I'm waiting for America to come back, for us to get our senses together, because it's just. How can I express it? Everybody can relate to the arts. It's the one moment where you can go see your favorite person, listen to your favorite person. It brings joy. In my head, I go to sleep with music in my head, and I wake up with music in my head. It's a universal language. You don't have to speak the language. You just have to hear the beautiful sounds that someone is making. And to not get these opportunities and try to get rid of diversity and think that there's something wrong with that. I just don't get it. I don't get it.

[Terry Gross]

Leslie Elkams, it's just really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

[Leslie Uggams]

Thank you. It's been a wonderful time being with you today.

[Terry Gross]

Leslie Uggams will be in the Aug. 3 episode of HBO's the Gilded Age.

[Unknown]

Free and easy that's my style. How did do me? Watch me smile? Fare thee well me after while? Cause I got a roll? And any place I hang my hat is home Sweetening water cherry wine thank you kindly Suits me Kansas City Caroline, that's my honeycomb. Cause any place I hang my hat is home.

[Terry Gross]

Tomorrow we'll talk about how tech is helping and exploiting us. My guest will be novelist and tech reporter Wahini Vara. Her new memoir is based in part on her history of Internet searches and on asking ChatGPT for feedback on each chapter of her book. She was evaluating its benefits and shortcomings. I hope you'll join us. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Unknown]

Birds roosting in the tree hiccup and go and the going through that's how it ought to be. I think of two when the spirit moves me across the river round the bend.

[Leslie Uggams]

Howdy, stranger.

[Unknown]

So long, friend. There's a voice in the lonesome wind that keeps a whispering ra ra ro. I'm going where a welcome man is, no matter where that is.

This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level.

[Amazon Pharmacy]

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[Terry Gross]

That economic jargon can sometimes feel like speaking another language. Yeah, like arbitrage, alpha, otarchy.

[Unknown]

That's just what's in the news these days. There's also absolute advantage. Aggregate demand, aggregate supply. And this is just the A's. Oh, animal spirits. That's a pretty good one. Planet Money from npr, we help you translate the economy so you can understand the world. Wherever you get your podcasts.