Tonya Mosley (5:03)

Was there a particular moment when you realized you're at college when you realize, wait a minute, I could do whatever I want?

Malala Yousafzai (5:10)

You know? You know, I think about the roof climbing experience oftentimes because that was offered to me by a stranger at college who told me that there is this crazy thing that only cool college students do? And he offered it to me and I said, okay, I'll see you at midnight. I told my security, like, I'm done for the day and you guys can go to sleep. So this is what I just want.

Tonya Mosley (5:37)

To note for folks that you had 24 hour security. Because during this time period, in the years after you were shot, you received lots of threats against your life. That's why you had 24 hour security. In addition, in the same way that many heads of state have security in the United States.

Malala Yousafzai (5:55)

Yeah, I mean, it was awkward to have like guys following you, but at the same time it just helped me have the opportunity to experience these things and not be worried about safety and security. So. Yeah. But for that night, the roof climbing night, I told them I think I'm going to be safe on my own. I said, you guys can go to bed. So it's midnight. I follow the stranger. We go up to the fourth floor of the building and there's a small window in this room. And he tells me that we need to sneak out through the window and then walk by this narrow path on the roof. One misstep and you could fall. And I am just nodding and I follow him. And it was really scary way making it up to the rooftop. And on the rooftop there's this bell tower, like the clock tower. And that moment just felt surreal. I just thought I had like conquered something. I was breathing in the fresh air and I was looking down, just seeing some students still up at night or the lights were still on in some rooms. And I was thinking maybe they're still trying to finish their essay or just feeling a moment of victory. And I was so scared that I might be kicked out of college for this and this happening so soon. So I was terrified that being an advocate for education and then getting in trouble and being kicked out.

Tonya Mosley (7:21)

What do you think it was about that that like really set your heart on this independent journey like that. It's almost like another near death experience.

Malala Yousafzai (7:31)

I think for me it was just wanting to disobey rules. I thought I had to live up to expectations and be a certain way. I could never get in trouble. I thought if this is something that puts me in the cool kids category or the rebellious kids category, I want to give it a try. Like, I wanted these college years to be that experience that I otherwise would never come across.

Tonya Mosley (8:01)

You really did experience a lot of things in college that many students do, including getting high. You, your spring year of college, first year at Oxford, you're with friends, you're hanging out as college kids do, and you're offered marijuana, specifically a bong. And you join in with your friends. And as the hours tick on, you have a reaction. You can't walk. Everything goes black. And this, you realize, is a very familiar place. Could I Have you read what you wrote about it in the book?

Malala Yousafzai (8:40)

Suddenly, I was 15 years old again, lying on my back under a white sheet, a tube running down my throat, eyes closed for seven days as doctors tended to my wounds. I was in a coma. From the outside, I looked to be in a deep sleep, but inside, my mind was awake. And it played a slideshow of recent events. My school bus, a man with a gun, blood everywhere. My body carried through a crowded streets. Strangers hunched over me, yelling things I didn't understand. My father rushing toward the stretcher to take my hand. As the images repeated in the same sequence over and over, I raged against them, trying to beat them away. This isn't true, I told myself. The real Malala is the one trapped in this nightmare, not the girl on the stretcher. Just wake up and it will stop. Wake up. I had tried to force my eyes open to see something other than this carousel of horrors. Inside, I screamed. Outside, my lips stayed closed, motionless. I was awake and buried alive in the coffin of my body.

Tonya Mosley (9:55)

It's hard to read. Yes, it's hard to read it.

Malala Yousafzai (9:59)

The Bong incident just turned out to be an experience. Not that I had imagined. I had heard cool things about it. And of course, it's different for everybody. But I think in my case, there was this unaddressed trauma. The memory, the visuals, everything I think had been there. My brain had tried to suppress them because, you know, it's just a moment of fear that you do not want to see again. And when the Bong incident happened, my body froze, and I was reliving the Taliban attack. You know, I could see the gunman. I thought, this is happening all over again. I often say that I received my surgeries and I recovered so quickly from the Taliban attack. But just when this happened, I realized that maybe I actually had not fully recovered. There was this unaddressed part of my recovery, which was mental health, which was the trauma that we did not actually count in the treatment process.

Tonya Mosley (11:03)

There are some dark moments that you experienced after that night. You started to experience these intrusive thoughts that didn't stop even after the high went away. You describe being afraid of a kitchen knife. Not that someone would hurt you with it, but that you might hurt yourself. And I just kept thinking as I was reading this for someone the world has called the bravest girl on earth, what was it like to suddenly be frightened of your own hands, of your own self?

Malala Yousafzai (11:36)

It was frightening. And even now, like, when I think about it, it's just. It's a really frightening Place to be in. You feel trapped, you do not see a way out. That's exactly what I was going through in those days. You know, I would be. I was shaking. I was shaking every minute. I could not look at harmful objects. I could not look at a knife. I could not watched news that said anything about murdering people or somebody being killed or shot or wounded. I just felt so disappointed with myself that somebody who actually faced a Taliban gunman was somehow now scared of these small things. It was all trivial stuff that it made no sense to me. And I thought that I had lost my courage, that I was not brave enough. The titles I had received my whole life and I thought I had to live up to them. I felt like an imposter. And then one of my friends suggested that I see a therapist. She said that a lot of students actually get therapy in college, that she herself is seeing a therapist. And I was a bit skeptical. I also thought a therapist would not understand what I'm going through. Right, because he said I should give it a try. Yeah.

Tonya Mosley (13:08)

Because your parents didn't believe in therapy. I think your father said only a completely non functioning person needs a therapist. So there was a lot that you needed to get over to actually seek one.

Malala Yousafzai (13:22)

Yes. You know, growing up in Pakistan, we had not heard about therapy and mental health that now we are hearing where it's been accepted as a normal conversation. People are opening up about it and we don't even have that much support around mental health.

Tonya Mosley (13:42)

Has it helped you?

Malala Yousafzai (13:44)

Therapy has definitely helped me. I remember the first session where I told my therapist all my problems, past, present, potential, future ones. And I said, okay, now give me some medication. How do we fix it? And she took a deep breath and she said, this is not how therapy works. And she told me that I had PTSD and anxiety. And this was the first time that I actually heard the word ptsd. I had heard it in a few different contexts, but I thought, okay, I faced a trauma, but I think I don't have ptsd. But seven years later, PTSD appeared. And I learned something that when people talk about a traumatic experience, it's not necessary that PTSD or the mental health issues appear immediately. They could appear seven years later, ten years later, you never know. And that happened in my case.

Tonya Mosley (14:51)

Let's talk about love. You write that you'd convinced yourself you'd never date, you'd never marry, that you'd be like a quote, like a nun, but Muslim. Once you got past yourself and you and your now husband Aser fell madly In Love, which folks can read all about it in this book. But you were resistant to marriage for a long time. Why were you against marriage?

Malala Yousafzai (15:22)

I mean, growing up, I had seen many girls lose the opportunity to complete their education and, you know, just their dreams to become a doctor, engineer, because they were married off. So, like, marriage, that was, like, the last thing I wanted to think about. I did not want to get married. It was not a cool thing. If you wanted to have a future as a girl, you wanted to keep yourself away from marriage for as long as you could, because even later in your life, it just meant, like, more compromises for women that you had to readjust to the husband's family, and you just had to pray that the husband turns out to be a nice, respectful person. I remember when I was thinking about marriage for myself, I put myself in my mom's shoes for the first time. I had never thought about anything from her perspective before, and I would always admire my dad, and I wanted to follow his footsteps and all of that. But this was the first time I wondered what life would have been like for my mom when she decided to marry. How did she trust this guy she had not even known and decided to move into his house and be married off and restart a new life? And I asked my mom, actually, what were her dreams when she was a kid? And she said, you know, I just wanted to find a husband who would be respectful, and I can go into the city and, like, have nice food and, like, drive around in a car. And I realized that my mom didn't even have a dream for herself, that marriage was a way for her to find some sort of freedom, a little more freedom than she had right now. So it was sort of a fascinating time. When I saw ASR, I immediately fell in love with him. I knew that I wanted to be with him, and I knew that we had to be married, because in our culture, for two people to be together, you have to be married. But then marriage just felt like a very heavy topic for me. I even went to read some books.

Tonya Mosley (17:34)

Yes, you read a lot of books about feminism and marriage. Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (17:37)

Yes. I was like, please, Virginia Woolf, help me. Bell hooks. Can you. Can you share a few words of wisdom?

Tonya Mosley (17:45)

Well, you made this list of questions for him before you marry him. I mean, you asked him about fidelity, about whether he'd control what you wear, whether he'd take another wife. These were real considerations that you had to know. You were trying to extract guarantees, though, and he tried to give them to you, but then he said, something to you that was really kind of profound. He said, there are no magic words to take away all of your doubts. Why was that the right answer for you to kind of come to the realization that this was the step that you should take?

Malala Yousafzai (18:22)

Yeah. I mean, like, poor ASR, I was asking him every possible question about every horrible things that I had seen or heard about. Like, you know, a husband doesn't allow his wife to work. A husband has a problem that the wife earns more money. The husband is of this view that he can marry, like more wives or things like that. And he is okay with like telling the wife off or like that she has to live by his rules and all of that. So I said, who knows? Like, I know he's a nice guy, but who knows? I think it's better to get a verbal confirmation. It's just the fear, the fear that we all carry. I knew that I was a very independent person. I did not need a husband. Literally, I did not need him. But I wanted him. And I wanted to make sure that this was, like, worth my time. But when he said that no answers would clear all my doubts, I think he was right. It was true. Because even when he was answering, I still had that little hesitation in my heart. But what I really loved was just the way he was answering those questions. He was very patient. He gave me time. You know, this marriage conversation started like a while ago, but he allowed me to go and do my research and talk to people and just like, take my time off.

Tonya Mosley (19:47)

My guest today is Malala Yousafzai. We're talking about her new memoir, Finding My Way. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air.

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Tonya Mosley (21:29)

Malala I want to talk to you a bit about your parents. Many of us know your father's story. He's an educator who raised you to speak up. Your mother is quieter in the public narrative and in this book, though she's, she's complex. She once saved a girl from forced marriage, so she did have that within her, this understanding that whatever power she had, she also was in a way, would you call her a silent activist, not as vocal and open as your father, but still believing nonetheless.

Malala Yousafzai (22:08)

My mom is more an action driven person. She, you know, doesn't care about, you know, like, what we say, but she, for her, it's more about the actions we take. My mom has helped so many women and girls. You know, some stories like I saw myself, I remember this, this girl in Pakistan when, when, when we were living there who was, who was raped and she became pregnant and my mom saved her life. My mom saved her life. She took her for an abortion. And at the time I did not understand any of that. But like now when I reflect on it, I think, you know, my mom took such a brave step that it's, you know, if I ask her about her opinions on certain things, like she may not give us, she may not give an answer that truly reflects her actions. But I think, you know, she, for her it is about the safety and the protection of girls and how, you know, how we can, how we can help them and protect them from the harm and that they face.

Tonya Mosley (23:17)

Both of them. Both of your parents have been fiercely brave, but you also describe them as what will people think? People. And I found that to be such an interesting way to describe it. I think a lot of people can connect to that. How do you hold people, both of those truths about your parents being fiercely brave but also very concerned with the opinions of others.

Malala Yousafzai (23:41)

My mom had a very different childhood than mine. She never went to school, her female friends never went to school. It was actually normal and expected for a girl not to be educated. The best that she dreamed for herself was to be married into a family where the husband is a bit kind and just lets her have her favorite food or just takes her to one of her, like, favorite places to visit. That's all that she hoped for and that it doesn't turn out to be a horrible, abusive kind of in laws family or a husband. And, you know, when I think about it, I'm like, you know, my mom's journey was not easy. And she always says that she's so lucky that she found my dad because he is already known globally for his advocacy, feminism, for standing up for women's rights, and more importantly, for letting his daughter speak. I always tell people that there's nothing unique in my story of activism from Swat Valley. The only thing that's unique or different is that my father did not stop me. If more men are brave enough to. To allow the girls to do what they want or to not stop them, then we will hear different stories. We will hear more women and girls get the opportunities that they deserve. I know both of them are very kind and caring parents, but they are not just thinking as parents, but I think they're also thinking as representatives of the bigger community in Pakistan or relatives. And sometimes I feel like there are just too many voices that are speaking when they are speaking, and it affects everything. Like, even a decision. Like what I was packing for college. My mom was packing all the traditional Pakistani clothes for me. I just wanted to wear jeans and gray jumpers or sweaters, and I did not want to stand out at all. So I remember packing all of these, like, more normal college clothes. I remember going on Google and looking up Selena Gomez Casual 2017, because I was like, you know, what is, like, a cool outfit, a casual outfit that everybody's wearing.

Tonya Mosley (26:08)

There's this moment in college when you wore jeans to rowing practice. Yes. And a picture was taken of you wearing these jeans. Pakistani media went into an uproar. Your father wanted you to issue a clarification. And I'll just say there's something almost comical in the way that you write about that. What did he say to you? What did he want you to say?

Malala Yousafzai (26:33)

You know, both. Both my mom and dad were really upset when they saw the whole backlash in Pakistan. I remember, like, on phone with both mom and my dad and just being so mad at them because I said, like, I am here at college, not for some pilgrimage or some, like, religious ceremony. This is. This is my college life, and I want to be like every other student. What am I even going to say in a clarification statement, like, apologies, I'm not gonna wear jeans tomorrow? Or okay, let me defend jeans and say, you know, there are like Muslim people who wear jeans. There's no fixed dress code for Muslims. Or, you know, like, I was like, this is gonna be a whole another debate. Can women and girls just wear what they want? So my dad, in the end agreed. My mom was still arguing with me, but in she sort of accepted it. But I told them, I said, you know, you just never know. Jeans was like the last thing that I was worried about. To be honest, I was more worried about people taking photos if I were seen, like, with my friends at a party where we were maybe like dancing together. I thought, like, all of these things could be taken out of context. I was super aware of that. But when it happened with jeans, I was like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna go for everything now because people could criticize anything. Like, people could even criticize you for your existence. Where do you draw the line?

Tonya Mosley (27:59)

Let's take a short break. Malala, if you're just joining us, my guest is Malala Yousafzai. She's the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize laureate and co founder of Malala Fund, which advocates for girls education worldwide. Her new memoir is Finding My Way. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.

Malala Yousafzai (28:20)

I'm Ira Glass. On this American Life, we tell real.

Tonya Mosley (28:23)

Life stories, really good ones.

Malala Yousafzai (28:25)

My mother said, I'm sorry that you weren't here because Father Sager was here visiting and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan, Ma Surprising stories in your podcast.

Tonya Mosley (28:42)

Feed this American Life. Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest. I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen Podcast from OPD every Monday, part of the NPR network.

Malala Yousafzai (29:04)

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Or if you work on one of.

Tonya Mosley (29:23)

The news shows, an all morninger. Sign up@plus.NPR.org the only panic attacks you still experience, you wrote in the book, was are about Afghanistan. Is that still true?

Malala Yousafzai (29:39)

Yes. And I remember when I was in South Africa, I was giving a speech at the Nelson Mandela lecture, and I wanted to support the Afghan women's campaign of gender apartheid. So they're calling leaders to recognize what's happening in the country as a gender apartheid, because it is actually systemic oppression, and they want it to be considered as an international crime, and the Taliban should be held accountable for it. So I gave my speech, I did my interviews. You know, we had conversation with South African female activists and allies, and everything went really well. And then on the last night, like, in the middle of my sleep, I just suddenly woke up, and I was shaking and sweating, and I had, like, this terrible panic attack where I thought, you know, I could just. I could die. I. I was sort of screaming, and, yeah, it was terrifying. But this time, my husband was with me, and he was holding my hand, and he helped me and supported me. So it was just a reminder that the fear is there, and the fear is for what other Afghan women and girls are experiencing right now. It is terrifying. It is truly terrifying.

Tonya Mosley (30:59)

And yet, at the same time, when you're scrolling on your phone, you make yourself stop to watch the videos of Afghan women being beaten and assaulted. And so in many ways, you're choosing to re. Traumatize yourself. Why is it important to be a witness?

Malala Yousafzai (31:20)

You know, I have lived through those experiences. I have seen them. And when we were going through the Taliban's brutal time in our hometown in Swat Valley in the north of Pakistan, we wanted the world to see it, because this is a reality that women are actually living. These are not things that sort of have happened in the past, and they have stopped. These terrible things are happening each and every day. Only a few stories actually make it to social media. So when we see something horrible happening to others, I think even just stopping for a moment and just seeing it, witnessing it, so that they know that you saw and you were there with them, and that you feel that anger, you feel the frustration. So I think it's when. Even when we share emotions, it is a message of solidarity. But, you know, I want Afghan women to know that they are not alone. I think they need more support. And that's the work that I am supporting through Malala Fund. I'm supporting Afghan activists in the country, outside the country, and I hope that things change for them.

Tonya Mosley (32:29)

I want to ask you about the United States. Having observed our political landscape, maybe what has surprised you most about the state of women's rights here in the United States?

Malala Yousafzai (32:44)

I think women's rights are a very fragile conversation in many parts of the world, including the United States. And in moments like these, I think women and girls and advocates of women's rights should take a moment to reflect on how, you know, how much progress we have actually achieved. I know people often ask that, are we shocked to see these setbacks? And I say, yes, I am shocked to see the setbacks everywhere, most importantly in Afghanistan, because, like, imagine girls education being banned. Like, that's a reality girls in Afghanistan have to live under, or women being banned from work. That's a reality women have to live under. So it's also a reminder that the activism that we are doing for women's rights is more important than ever because of how fragile these accomplishments had been, that they are taken away from us the next moment. So we need to do more to protect women's rights and, like, systematically protect them. So one of the campaigns that Afghan women are leading is to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid and to make gender apartheid a part of the Crime Against Humanity treaty. And I know it sounds like too much, too many jargons, but what this basically means is that currently we do not have anything in the international law that can recognize the level of systemic oppression that the Taliban impose. The scale of it is just so big and so intense that they are getting away with it. So if it becomes an international crime, then countries are obliged to react. Countries should not be normalizing relationships with them, and it just helps us have a better accountability system.

Tonya Mosley (34:39)

The challenge is, you know, I think, about the United States role in this. I know the Trump administration's cuts to international aid and the reinstatement of policies like this expanded global gag rule. It directly impacts women's access to education and healthcare worldwide. And I was wondering, given your work, have you seen US Policy changes impact girls and women in countries where you work?

Malala Yousafzai (35:06)

Yes. So a lot of the activists that Manala Fund supports also receive grants from usaid. And, yes, because of the cuts, their organizations were affected, including one organization in Afghanistan, as well as and for an organization like Malala Fund. So we don't receive government grants, but we knew that these activists who are working in these important, tough areas of the countries where girls need help with education need our support more than ever. So we are helping them get fundraising in other ways, and we are also providing them with the funding that they need. Yes, it's reaching to the work for girls education. It has affected that.

Tonya Mosley (35:52)

There's this thing that this sociologist, Tressi McMillan, Cottam says that freedom, she feels, is a responsibility. Her belief is that the more responsible she is to others, the freer she is. And I feel like this is what I'm hearing from you in a way. I was wondering, does that idea resonate with you?

Malala Yousafzai (36:12)

You know, I don't necessarily think about it in the sense of freedom, but I think about it as a purpose of life. I just reflect on the time when I could not be in school. I was only 11 years old and the Taliban had banned girls from learning. It has been my life's mission since then that no other girl faces that. I remember recovering from the Taliban bullet and processing this moment that somebody could hurt a child. And since then, it has now become my life's goal that no other child takes a bullet, no other child is punishing, no other child is punished for daring to be in school. So when you face violence, harm and trauma yourself, you understand how terrible and horrible it is that you can no longer see it even happening to anybody else. You know, people often ask me, like, how I felt. I'm like, you know, yes, you know, it was all horrible, but I just cannot see it happening to anyone right now, whether it's girls being banned from school in Afghanistan or girls schools being bombed in Gaza or children being forced into labor or girls being married off and, you know, they have to, like, live under these constant wars and violence, all of these things. Like, it's just scary. But I just hope that we can create a world without any war and terror and harm for children where they can have a childhood of joy and learning and they can have a safe life.

Tonya Mosley (38:02)

Malala Yousafzai, thank you so much.

Malala Yousafzai (38:05)

Oh, thank you so much. Nice talking to you.

Tonya Mosley (38:08)

Malala Yousafzai's new memoir is called Finding My Way. Coming up, TV critic David Biancooley reviews a new documentary series about Martin Scorsese on Apple tv. This is FRESH air.

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Tonya Mosley (39:16)

I love space, I love physics, and I love movies.

Malala Yousafzai (39:20)

And when I tell people all three of those things, they often ask me about one specific movie. Interstellar. In the words of a 2013 Facebook relationship status, it's complicated.

Tonya Mosley (39:31)

So on NPR's Shortwave podcast, we rewatched Christopher Nolan's Interstellar to separate the science.

Malala Yousafzai (39:36)

Facts from the science fiction.

Tonya Mosley (39:38)

Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. A new five part biographical documentary about Martin Scorsese analyzing the film director's life and work is appearing now on Apple TV. Directed by Rebecca Miller, it's called Mr. Scorsese and our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.

David Biancooli (39:59)

If the thought of a five part, five hour study of Martin Scorsese might sound excessive, then maybe you haven't seen enough of his movies. Or for that matter, feasted on any of his multi part documentaries on the history of film, both domestic and international. They're treasures loaded with insights, passion and hints about which films to seek out next for even more riches. In Rebecca Miller's new Mr. Scorsese, he turns that focus and knowledge on his own work, with Miller providing visual aids to underscore his points. Take for example, one of Scorsese's most famous films, Taxi Driver. Robert De Niro plays New York City cab driver Travis Bickle, who is rejected by some elements of the city and repulsed by others. Scorsese explains to Miller how he set out to emphasize Travis's sense of alienation visually by subtly but intentionally selecting how he presented De Niro's character on screen.

Martin Scorsese (41:02)

So we always try to kind of psychologically try to keep him separate from everybody else. That was the key thing in that film. Who's in whose frame? And so I was trying always to keep him in a single frame, nobody in his frame. And then when I cut to the other person, he's in their frame, but they're not in his.

David Biancooli (41:23)

We're given lots of other insights about Taxi Driver, and not just from Scorsese. Robert De Niro and Jody Foster talk about how their improv sessions during rehearsals defined their characters and led to some of the movie's most indelible scenes. The film's screenwriter, Paul Schrader, talks about how both the director and the actors elevated what was written on the pages of his script And Schrader, when asked by Miller, also talks very chillingly about how the pent up, potentially violent loner of Taxi Driver is a much more familiar character today in real life.

Tonya Mosley (42:01)

Feels like there's a lot of Travis Bickles, especially right now.

Malala Yousafzai (42:04)

They're all talking to each other on the Internet. When I first heard about him, he was talking to nobody. He really was at that point the underground man. Now he's the Internet man.

David Biancooli (42:15)

One of Scorsese's friends and fellow directors, Steven Spielberg, offers some Taxi Drivers insights too. He tells how Scorsese avoided an X rating for that movie, which the film board threatened to impose because of its bloody climax by adjusting the color of the blood on the finished prints from bright red to a much more muted brown. Scorsese learned that lesson well. Later for his brutal boxing epic Raging Bull, he drained the color of blood completely, shooting the entire film in black and white. Most of Scorsese's films are dissected with the same loving detail by those who know him and his movies best. The people interviewed include not only De Niro, Foster Schrader and Spielberg, but actors Leonardo DiCaprio, Daniel Day Lewis, Sharon Stone, Joe Pesci, Margot Robbie and Cate Blanchett. Directors Spike Lee and Brian De Palma, and rock stars Mick Jagger and Robbie Robertson. Then there are his other creative collaborators, such as Thelma Schoonmaker and his grown children, his wife and ex wives and childhood friends. All of them have some informative and wild stories to tell. Early on, Scorsese sits down with some guys from the old neighborhood, including De Niro, to talk about old times.

Martin Scorsese (43:38)

Never forget, one night we're standing outside and there was a guy lying in the Jersey street, remember? And we start looking, we're talking by the graveyard and we're going, the guy's not moving.

Malala Yousafzai (43:47)

Missing his hands.

Martin Scorsese (43:48)

Yeah, yeah, guy's not moving. Yeah, he's dressed nicely. You kind of go over, Robert, you were going over, looking around like you came back and said, Jimmy just put a pencil in his head to make sure that it was a bullet hole. That was when Mulberry street was still the place where they dumped the bodies. They called it Murder Mile used to be called, and the Bowery was called Devil's Mile. So we were in between Murder Mile and Devil's Mile.

David Biancooli (44:16)

But even while growing up in that tough neighborhood, young Marty Scorsese found solace in the local movie theater and began drawing his own make believe stories. Essentially they were comic strip storyboards for the movies in his mind, violent period epics with titles like the Eternal City, complete with gladiators and bloody battles, and with credits that read even at age 11, directed and produced by Martin Scorsese.

Martin Scorsese (44:44)

I became obsessed with all kinds of films and I used my imagination. I was making up all these stories. So I started drawing these little pictures that showed the impression of movement, like the storyboard for a film. These images move. This is a boom, a tracking shot. Here, here's the wall of Rome and here are the trees. Here the camera's on a crane and the camera comes all the way down over the backs of the first group of men. And the doors open, but it's a big crane shot as you go from here and then it goes behind and you go down. I'm still doing this shot. I'm still doing it. Doesn't quite work all the time.

David Biancooli (45:25)

The documentary Mr. Scorsese spends its first installment on his early days, his childhood making student films at nyu, being on the movie camera crew at Woodstock, and eventually getting his break with low budget movie producer Roger Corman to direct a Bonnie and Clyde knockoff called Boxcar Bertha. When Scorsese showed it to his filmmaking friends, they were unimpressed. And when he showed it to his mentor and hero, independent filmmaker John Cassavetes, the reaction was even worse.

Martin Scorsese (45:57)

So he looked at Dr. Carberta. I saw him afterwards. He looked at me and he was like 10ft away from me. And he goes, come here. And I went up there and he embraced me and he held me aside, pushed me aside, and he goes, you just spent a year of your life making a Don't do this again. Don't do this again.

David Biancooli (46:26)

And he didn't. Instead, Martin Scorsese made Mean Streets with Harvey Keitel and Robert De Niro and took all their careers to a higher level. Mr. Scorsese takes us on that journey, and some of the stops along the way are breathtaking. The Last Waltz. Raging Bull. Goodfellas Casino. The Aviator, the Wolf of Wall Street. There are a few regretful omissions in Mr. Scorsese, but in an overview of this type, that's inevitable and completely acceptable. This new Apple TV series is self described as a film portrait by Rebecca Miller. And as portraits go, it's by no means a hasty sketch. With its many interviews and film clips and its exciting use of split screen comparisons and music by the Rolling Stones, Mr. Scorsese is closer to a patiently painted masterpiece.

Tonya Mosley (47:21)

David Biancooli reviewed Mr. Scorsese, now streaming on Apple TV. Plus tomorrow on Fresh what's happening with the American economy how constantly changing tariffs AI the immigration crackdown and uncertainty in the job and stock market affect everything from the global economy to our daily lives. We speak with Zanny Mitten Beddoes, editor in chief of the Economist. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram. P R FRESH air Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Philosophy Annmarie Boldonado, Heidi Simon, Lauren Krenzle, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakunde and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

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Tonya Mosley (49:15)

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I'm gonna say yes with an asterisk. Every pop star exploits their fans.

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